Tweet
In an opinion piece in the National Law Journal, Karen J. Mathis (president of the American Bar Association), Fiona Woolf (president of the Law Society of England and Wales), and J. Parker MacCarthy (president of the Canadian Bar Association) say the following:
Of all the rights accorded by common law, perhaps none matters more — nor has endured longer — than the right of habeas corpus, which guarantees the opportunity to challenge wrongful imprisonment by the government.The roots of habeas corpus are older even than the Magna Carta. This pledge against arbitrary confinement fundamentally separates the just nation from the unjust, and in some form is a shared legal legacy of the United Kingdom, the United States and Canada….
It is in light of this that we, the leaders of these nations’ organized bars, are gravely concerned by the continued erosion of this hallowed right. We believe that as each nation holds its own debate on how to treat suspected terrorists, it is essential that people understand and appreciate the more than 800-year-old heritage we are endangering….
Advocates who suggest we compromise our civil liberties in the name of national security like to think there are no mistakes, no innocents who are being wrongly caught in law enforcement’s net. But such errors do occur, and without review by a fair and impartial court, they cannot be corrected.
The writ of habeas corpus is a pledge we grant to everyone — however accursed in the eyes of society — that even the jailer must answer to a higher authority. As we challenge the depraved threat of terrorism, our three nations must honor and restore a right that helped us emerge from the Middle Ages.
Our nations’ lawyers stand as one in support of habeas corpus.
Amen. It is time that Americans awoke from their cozy slumber and realized that the nation’s liberty is being sold for a false sense of temporary security that isn’t worth the price being paid for it. No more.
I am an American. I am not afraid. And my civil liberties are not yours for the taking.
PS — Pach will be liveblogging for us from the courthouse proceedings in the Libby matter this morning, in case anyone was wondering about upcoming coverage.
(Photo via Spike55151.)
159 Comments
Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Firedoglake
Zed?
Oops – 0ne!
Christy!
Someone really wants Robert Mueller out at the FBI: another John Solomon hit piece.
I wonder what’s up.
allan at 3 — Payback for something, if I had to guess.
OT but imho important: Under my .SIG you’ll find a pointer to what I hope will be a productive conversaion about what tools FDL has adopted, and might adopt in the near-term, to add simultaneous-multi-topic-style functions to this highly successful blog.
Anent this topic, Suzanne and I had what I thought was a very interesting discussion last evening (EDST), in the comments in this very blog. If you’re interested in reading that exchange of views, you are cordially invited to search for it! *grinz*
I hope you’ll begin the discussion under my .SIG; you’re more than welcome. It wouldn’t be appropriate here, imho.
You can control whether the comments are shown in time- or reverse-time order: just click the little triangle next to “Messages” in the light blue bar! :)
I’ll be re-posting this invitation in later blogposts.
Just to make myself clear: I’m not saying that the FBI wasn’t in the wrong.
It’s just that this sudden surge in stories about the FBI has to be orchestrated.
SOS at 5 — Have you talked to Jane about all of this before proposing add-ons to her blog? If not, you might want to do so. (Although not today because she has chemo.) I’m just saying…
On Countdown last week, Jonathon Turley was pointing out that all the other rights from the bill of rights and amendments are basically meaningless without Habeas Corpus as that is the most fundamental right underpinning everything else.
Of course, in Gonzo world saying”Habeas Corpus shall not be denied” means it is not explicitly available. Black is white. Up is down. And the spinning wheel goes round and round.
Mornin’ Ms Christy!
Good to hear someone (other than us dirty hippie bloggers) crying out for a return of habeas corpus.
we are, i guess, a weak people — not made of the same stuff of our fathers and their fathers, those who built this country on fundamental principles of human rights and liberty, nor those who came here drawn to the essential truths those rights and liberties held, nor those who fought to preserve those rights and liberties.
no, this country these days is made up mostly of people who just want to be left alone, even if it means ignoring the atrocities conducted in their midst, in their name. it’s just too much to ask of them to pay attention.
we get the government we deserve. or the one that takes over when we weren’t looking. either way, we should be taking to the streets.
Diane at 9 — A lot of people have been, they just don’t get coverage. Wanted to push this particular piece up in front of a lot of eyes this morning for that reason. It is highly unusual that the heads of bar associations in three nations would stand up and speak as one on a fundamental underpinning of our common law. This ought to be a much bigger deal — but I’m afraid that folks in the media have missed that point. So I wanted to be sure some of them took a second look — and that all of us knew that this had happened.
The National Law Journal is incredibly influential. This really ought to get more play.
What time does the LibbyFest begin?
But the plan is to take us back to the middle ages isn’t it?
Breaking: NPR Radio
Spielberg gives HRC the nomination.
Mornin’ – driving by, but I did want to note that one need look at the dozens of folks the Innocence project has freed, or the malfeasance of the Duke Lacrosse prosecutor, or the ever-diminishing severity of Jose Padilla’s accused transgressions, in order to see that prosecutors make mistakes.
One thinks one could even sell it to the wingnut right, if not on principle, on the saga of poor Scooter – imagine if a zealous prosecutor could just lock him up for an alleged crime with no chance for judicial review!
ccmask at 13 — There was a bit in one of the NYTimes blogs about him supporting Hillary. That must make things awfully cozy at Dreamworks, since Geffen has been an outspoken critic of hers after they had their spat, and is now supporting Obama. (Although why this is news beyond their celebrity status and donation power, I have no idea…)
ccmask @ 13
Well, that will save us al a lot of time and money.
And thought.
Mutant at 14 — Absolutely on the myriad examples on this. Anyone who thinks “it can’t happen to me” is living in fantasyland.
Good morning, Christy
I’m still astounded by the reaction of my more conservative relatives. They act as if habeas corpus were “no big deal” when it comes to terrorists.
As much as I explain how dangerously foolish this attitude is, they just shrug shoulders and regard it as a rant from the family hippie. We don’t talk about politics much anymore.
How did I wind up related to these bozos?
hwmnbn at 18 — I recently solved that issue by bringing up the Founders and giving some folks a much-needed history lesson. Amazing how walking things back to the King George we overthrew can be an eye-opener. *G*
Don’t shoot the messenger. NPR said it should bring her campaign loads of money from Hollywood.
Check out these gallery pictures of people saying “We’re not afraid.” There are almost 1,000 galleries. The website became active after the London bombings but it goes along with what Christy is saying about Habeas corpus.
dmg @ 10
No. We have rarely extended rights like habeus corpus to minorities. The rich and the well-born are pushing back. The Dick Cheneys and George Bushes of he world are outright offended that dark-skinned people even ASK for habeus corpus. They are offended that Scooter Libby has to stand trial. They are also offended they cannot run Gitmo as a Caribbean Auschwitz. This country has very rarely had a record of showing decency to the underclass. What it has had is a record of the underclass fighting back. What is mysterious these days is why the underclass is so quiet.
Folks in the media are personified by “Morning Joe” Scarborough…hereafter “Willfully Obtuse Joe” or WO-Joe for short.
In a similar vein to your # 11, Christy, he spouts the “It’s just politics, pleasure of the Prez” BS that the Rethugs want to spin about the USA firings.
Until WO-Joe and the rest of the MSM connect the dots of civil liberties and civil rights [caging, anyone?] the drift toward a corporofascist state will continue. What was it WO-Joe said? Rome wasn’t burned in a day?
I do agree strongly with your statement:
It is time that Americans awoke from their cozy slumber and realized that the nation’s liberty is being sold for a false sense of temporary security that isn’t worth the price being paid for it.
With this caveat: past time.
dmg, your #10 gets it. And if you dumb down the media, fluff it up, you enable the Rethug game plan.
If you’re “moderate” Republicans and you give cover for the Plame-outers and Doans and Sampsons and all of greater BushCo, then you facilitate a neofascist state.
And Dems, the polls say it: we want our country back, and so far you ain’t deliverin’.
nomolos — Originally, everything was scheduled to start at 1:30 pm ET-ish. But we heard yesterday that the Judge may now be doing arguments at 10:00 am ET and then rendering a decision at 1:30 pm ET. Pach is going to scoot over to the courthouse early and get the scoop directly from the clerk who directs courtroom scheduling, so we should know for certain exactly how things are to be done today some point soon. HTH!
I still think that the legal community could be making much more noise about both this problem with habeas corpus and the destruction of the US Department of Justice. Lawyers are the ones with the training to understand the importance of these matters- and prosecutors are in an especially good position to explain to the public- and to journalists – why these Bush actions are so dangerous.
good morning, all… coffee is ready!
what time does Scooter don his little orange jumpsuit and his teeny tiny handcuffs?
(oh – that’s right – not hauled off to jail today – darn!)
1. Good for the ABA for speaking out in an important forum, along with their colleagues from other nations. Great news, and long overdue.
2. How excellent to have Pach on-site today, to bring developments as they happen to FDL. I wanted to reiterate that the Bond Pending Appeal motion hearing is scheduled to start at 11:30 a.m. in Courtroom 16, as I indicated yesterday.
Confusion comes in after that, because 1:30 p.m. is also listed on the court’s schedule today for Libby’s “sentencing.” But because 1:30 p.m. was the original time announced a week ago for this hearing, I think it’s safe to assume that that’s an inaccurate double entry on the schedule. In other words, the sentencing hearing begins at 11:30 this morning, and that will be that, after the hearing concludes (no resumption at 1:30 p.m. for other, related purposes).
ccmask @ 20
Well, she’s gotten a lot already, and a lot of her donors have maxed out.
I think it’s a nonstory, but clearly more important than, say, our most fundamental constitutional right.
see, in Scooter’s world, brown people don’t deserve habeus corpus and priveleged people should never go to jail.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 15
DING!
i do realize that early money is like yeast,
and celebrity endorsements usually mean big
money — $25k per plate dinners, hosted by
the celebrity — and blah, blah blah. . .
wow — i.just.don’t.care.who.spielberg.or.
geffen.like.
but now — here’s why i appear, momentarily
from the shadows:
. . .to cheer the great writ — here’s
to all who believe the courts should be
a check on the crown!
here’s to all who know that the police
occasionally let them down. . .
here’s to knowing that — if all other
appeals fail — an order for the release
of the body, will still remain. . .
now — let’s set about making it
so — once again!
p e a c e
comes through
j u s t i c e,
and justice,
through pro-
tection of our
rights and freedoms. . .
now — it’s [almost] libby-time!
I wonder what ( or if ) John Yoo teaches his law students about habeas corpus at UC Berkeley.
Is a generation of legal pod people being readied for implant in the justice system?
spinoza at 21 — Gee, that’s funny, considering I used to represent indigent defendants all the time on habeas and other appeals when I was in private practice. And I mean a LOT. Seems to me that we do have a system which allows people to present arguments — it just works better in some places than others due to lack of oversight issues.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 19
Thanks for the tip.
Our next scheduled “family” deal is the 4th of July cookout. That seems like an appropriate venue for the discussion, what with fireworks and all.
BTW, you, the Peanut and Mr. Christy are cordially invited. *g*
if anything the lack of outrage about the shredding of habeas corpus shows just how poor a job of educating our children this country has managed.
this ought to be in the dna of our national being. instead, you get puzzled looks — that is, right before they shut you out entirely.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 23
Oh nuts, Christy. I set my DVR for 11 to 6 hoping for a Libbyfest tonight. Hopefully nothing will happen before then. See? this is why I can’t miss any of the threads. *g*
allan_in_upstate @ 3
Maybe Solomon wrote an accurate piece this time , and the FBI has been reliving the Hoover days?
Tired Fred hope your cough came on just in time to attend the hearing with Jane, CHS, and Marcy.
Thanks FDL team for allowing us to experience the Libby trial/ hearing through your eyes which I have come to know as the clearest communication outlet available!
Stream on!
Mutant Poodle @ 16
So Spielberg is in favor of an endless Iraqi occupation? Interesting!!!
I am the ruler
I am the king
I am the decider
of everything
No need for Congress
No need for the judge
I know what is best
When I hold a grudge
I don’t need no reason
or habeas corpus
to stand in my way
of my kinda justice
lock em up quickly
throw out the key
don’t let em speak
or the truth will be seen
As for scooter
he’s my kinda guy
He’s not goin’ to tell
I outed the spy
So let him have habeas
And corpus too
as for the rest
Well, fu*k you
Bob Barr & Bruce Fein (of all people) wrote an op-ed denouncing this policy, unfortunately that was not quite newsworthy for the Sunday morning talk shows. I don’t see this being spelled out to the “average” joetalkshow American.
Sent over there to wrong link at Rising Hegemon by attaturk at atrios’ place, I was scrolling through the posts.
Apparently the Sopranos last show included the MC Rove clip from the WH correspondents dinner. I hadn’t seen it in a while. I had not remembered that part of Rove’s styling was pulling out a blackberry. I wonder whether that was a WH blackberry or one of the RNC’s.
At hospital, round 7 here we go!
Can’t wait for Pach live blog from courthouse. Big day — it’s been a long haul on this one, eh Christy?
ccmask @ 20
hey — i am in at least two of those
photos! one taken just outside parliment,
three days after the second bombing,
and oddly — inside the oxford circus
station — the morning of the second
bombing. . . what a ride that day was. . .
i may have submitted two or three more,
from paris, venice and rome. . . can’t
remember if i “got around to it. . .”
and — yet again — the idea that the
courts must serve as a check upon the
crown, remains. . .
p e a c e
[is it libby-on-the-label, yet?]
Christy Hardin Smith @ 31
I am rather astounded to get a reply from you. I am humbled. I am not a lawyer. But my impressions from reading things like Gideon’s Trumpet and the Dred Scott case is that minorities have had to fight for their rights in this country. Habeus corpus is like grease for the wealthy. The poor and disenfranchised need a lawyer like you to even get a level playing field.
Not really OT, This is from NewsweekJohn Rizzo, nominated for lead CIA atty to have public hearing next week in front of Senate Intel committee. He was part of the group coming up with the interrogation techniques and rendition…
jane hamsher @ 41
Good luck today Jane! Fight hard…
Another Dreamworks fantasy
jane at 41 — You just kick that cancer’s ass, baby, that’s all I’m asking. :) Glad your count was up today!
And I cannot wait to see what happens with Scooter, Round 847 today. I look for a remand to custody, but the judge will allow self-surrender because violent offenders take precedence in the system (along with potential flight risks) for public safety reasons. Which means another 3-6 weeks most likely before we see Scooter in blaze orange. That’s a whole lotta wingnut screeching to mock between now and then. *g*
Best wishes Jane!
Hang in there Jane!
Mutant Poodle @ 27
In watching MSNBC yesterday, I heard rumors that Obama was outraising HRC again this quarter. Not only that but his small donor base is enlarging as well. Meaning the lead he had over her last quarter could grow even larger. I wonder how hard she leaned on Spielberg.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 35
So, Solomon’s article tomorrow will involve crossdressing?
dakine01 @ 45
triple that, TOO!
Our nations’ lawyers stand as one in support of habeas corpus.
It’s a lovely sentiment, but she obviously didn’t hear the vitriol from David Rivkin after the Fourth Circuit decision; didn’t factor in the DOJ lawyers in this nation that helped scoop people up on material witness warrants and then hold them forever or smuggle them into military abuse; didn’t count up the DOJ lawyers who file brief after brief to attack the Constitutional protections; and didn’t subtract the law school professors, like the Bork 12, teaching as doctrine and law a contempt and disrespect for human and moral values and for the Constitutional and ancient safeguards and writs.
We don’t stand as one. The lawyers who decided to quit working for the country and the Constitution and instead be “loyal bushies” who conspire at Executive branch enterprises of torture and kidnap and disappearing and threats to children and family and never even blush – well, let’s just say the King’s lawyers don’t really deign to stand with hoi polloi. Thank the lord for small favors.
Jane!!
We don’t stand as one. The lawyers who decided to quit working for the country and the Constitution and instead be “loyal bushies” who conspire at Executive branch enterprises of torture and kidnap and disappearing and threats to children and family and never even blush – well, let’s just say the King’s lawyers don’t really deign to stand with hoi polloi. Thank the lord for small favors.
John Yoo, is that you?
Jane, praying for your courage & strength.
CHS — the docket, as
of last night, read:
just f.y.i.
Mary @ 53
Casey and Rifkin = DeGenova and Toensing in drag.
Both couples work for the D.C. Madame, Fred Hiatt,
but have different specialties.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 47
Can’t we ask the Prez to expedite the process
so Scoots can “be brought to justice”?
spinoza at 43 — No question that the nation’s history has been blemished — not just on racial but also gender lines in terms of access to the court system over the years. And we aren’t done — the Supreme Court just accepted certiorari on a case involving disparities in sentencing guidelines between crack and powder cocaine and how the breakdown on racial lines is substantial — should be an interesting argument.
But, nonetheless, it is inaccurate to say that minorities do not have access to legal help. First, because they do but, second, because the disparity is driven as much or more by economic status than color in a lot of areas. The rich can hire the lawyer of their choice, the poor get an appointed counsel — most of whom are quite good at what they do, but not all. (See all those lawyers who fall asleep in court defending a client in a death penalty case for examples of crap lawyering.) In most jurisdictions, though, state bar associations pull licenses of the most egregious practitioners. In my last state bar journal alone, there were several notices of suspensions and disbarments. And it is the same all over the country. And every day good lawyers walk into court with clients either on appointment from the court and/or doing pro bono work (for free, in other words) and do their job well because, at the heart of it, they are upholding the constitution by doing their job well.
Jane, my best to you from warm and lovely Madison (ah, summer!). Ellie sends her best barks to your pups too. She’s in the office with me today and already driving me crazy. 2 conference calls later this a.m. I’m doomed.
nolo at 57 — Yep, saw the docket. But we’ve gotten conflicting information, so we are covering our bases to be certain. Once Pach knows something for sure, we’ll all know.
It’s worth taking some time to read the dissent in al-Marri. Judge Hudson, a district judge sitting by designation, agrees that the majority is right on the jurisdictional question, meaning that al-Marri has the right to habeas corpus. He says that al-Marri is properly being held as an enemy combatant, because the Authorization for the Use of Military Force resolution gives the President the power to lock people up if they are enemy combatants. He cites Hamdi for the proposition that the only requirement is that purported enemy combatants be given some meaningful way to dispute that conclusion. Apparently, for Judge Hudson the habeas corpus proceeding al-Marri got before the District Court was his opportunity to test his status as an enemy combatant. That seems odd for several reasons, one of which which is that the MCA denies habeas corpus rights and substitutes, well, whatever you call that “procedure” it substitutes.
Time to get rid of the AUMF. Too dangerous.
Thanks for a great post Christy; I just ’spotlighted’ it to some MSM editors.
jane, all best wishes and prayers your way.
spinoza, it’s ALWAYS a struggle to make sure that justice is equal.
i look at the system without blinders and know how flawed it can be; that’s why it’s essential to push back, to make it work the way it’s supposed to. and that’s why habeas corpus is the first last and best device to ensure that all other rights are respected.
we can dress this up in 21st century trappings, but the fight is, apparently, an eternal one. habeas corpus protects us all. and this administration has given full voice to those not only threatened by that, but those who in their bones crave some sort of tyranny.
LiveStrong Jane!
It would help alot if people knew what Habeas Corpus is. Most don’t. To the extent that they’ve heard of it, it is just an esoteric Latin phrase that lawyers use in some context or another, having to do with jailing. They don’t understand it. I don’t think I understood it when I graduated from High School, and I actually paid attention in class!
The American people suffer from a terrible deficiency in civic education. There are some things that are more important than others. As has been stated a number of times, Habeas Corpus is the operational source of personal liberty. Without it, we can have a Constitution as Free as Stalin’s — on paper one of the the most liberty-loving in the world –and get the same result as he got. The ACLU brings cases. Perhaps the legal profession ought to subsidize an education programme on the meaning of habeas corpus. Our liberties cannot survive the level of ignorance currently prevailing among the public.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 60
CHS-
There has to be a significant positive correlation between economic status and the darkness of one’s skin. I have no gripe with concerning good lawyers upholding the law. I do worry about a government that hires John Yoos rather than Christy Hardin Smiths.
6 – the stories are a direct result of the oversight hearings and in particular Leahy’s efforts and he has not been very impressed by Mueller. They are about reports have been made to or ar going to be released to the Committee and despite the halos handed out pretty easily here – those reports show that no, there have not been a cadre of FBI agents willing to ruin their careers with no protection by coming forward as whistleblowers to violations of law that the Republicans didn’t want to hear about.
Signing on with Bush pretty much requires a willingness of CIA, FBI, AG, NSA – whichever – heads to put their people in a vise. Break the law bc the president says so and we go along and will help the president destroy you if you speak up. But on down the road, when the lawbreaking begins to be revealed, we’ll pretend that we knew nothing about it and if employees are caught between a rock and a hard place – well, you can rely on us to politely look the other way as they are crushed.
If you believe in the rule of law – you aren’t left with many good choices when huge chunks of the Executive branch – through and including the Dept of Justice are engaged in breaking the law. Add a Congress that is willing, when the lawbreaking creeps out – to do things like give amnesty and encourage attacks on morality and humanity and the Constitution by passing things like the MCA and you just make it that much more difficult to really recouperate, ever. If you don’t purge and punish, then even after the “rules change” you are riddled with employees who have been lawbreakers and seen accountability is not really required. If you do purge and punish – you catch all kinds of people in the net who were just working their butts off in the loyal Bushie/King George’s men environment and who were probably doing lots of good things most days.
Here is Thomas Jefferson:
And the link to U. Virginia’s etext:
Writings of Thomas Jefferson
Dear CHS,
Thanks for your (increasingly ardent) defense of the job being done by lawyers, as well as our justice system in general. IANAL, but I do have a basic trust and belief in our system. Of course, you’re right to highlight the potential abuse in the denial of habeas corpus to even non-citizen U.S. residents — who knows where that ends!
And did I hear the Dred Scott decision cited as an example of abuse in the system. Isn’t that something like a century and a half old. There certainly has been progress in that time period. Or so I see it…
-MS
I really wish these fine pros included the description of habas protection
things like;
“new law cannot be made up so any reason at all, that a man might be held for personal pleasure or profit of another man, that a man can be held in custody even though the are be patriots or supporters of this country who committed no crime”
things like this…we have to point out how the abuse will come, not just say how right we are, we have to show how wrong THEY are
From Glenn Greenwald’s column yesterday:
If enough members of the Federalist Society say that
this power is implicit in the Constitution,
who are we to say otherwise?
They are serious people, and go to all the right parties.
A couple of months ago I had an experience that opened my eyes to how truly ignorant the general public is about what is really going on.
Trip with two of my co-workers, educated professional women….. three days having fun but all they talked about was Dancing with the Stars, American Idol and sang along with golden oldies. Not knocking having fun girl time but three days and nights of this really had my eyes rolling back in my head…..
Mostly I kept quite (ya hard to believe) and then near the end of this little trip, I was asked what I like to do…..
Their determination was that I take life way too seriously.
“The writ of habeas corpus is a pledge we grant to everyone — however accursed in the eyes of society — that even the jailer must answer to a higher authority.” Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Feith, Elliot Abrams, Rove…next!
Tears and a lump in my throat..thanks Christy!
CHS “It is time that Americans awoke from their cozy slumber and realized that the nation’s liberty is being sold for a false sense of temporary security that isn’t worth the price being paid for it. No more.”
Many of us are clinging to Fitz’s inspiring words
“TRUTH IS THE ENGINE OF OUR JUDICIAL SYSTEM”
I am hoping and praying that Waltons core beliefs prevail. He has shared his deep belief that status, money, or roots should not influence justice being enforced.
The nation and the whole world are watching and hoping that this is true!
katymine @ 74
Didn’t that sort of make your day? It would for me.
-MS
katymine @ 74
“Bread and circuses.” Sound familiar anyone?
spinoza @ 43
U.S. prisons are filled with people who have not had equal access to the justice system!
Mary @ 53
I had been thinking myself of the members of the Senate who voted for MCA in spite of being attorneys; they obviously do not believe that habeas corpus is important and worthy of protection, or are already hollowed out automatons enthralled by the wealth that corruption buys.
Were that the lack of support of habeas corpus grounds for disbarment…
katymine @ 74
i run into this too, and i simply don’t understand. having fun and being an active citizen are not mutually exclusive.
i guess folks who shrug off what’s happened/ing to the country either feel out of their depth, or unaffected by the changes. and so they dismiss those who are paying attention.
it also comes down to that old philosophical schism — either the world is happening to you, or you’re happening to the world. if your entire perspective is that of a spectator, then of course you don’t take action. it’s just a movie.
Mary @ 69 –
once again…
i wish we had a tradition (or would create one) of a truth and reconciliation – type process…. at least that would provide some type of accountability, even if it was only the responsibility of telling the truth.
nomolos @ 12
that reminds me of what I said to some friends after the 2004 election, “yikes! It’s like the fall of the Roman empire, only this time we can see the Dark Ages coming.” Unfortunately it came to pass in ways I never thought of those few short years ago.
I tried to follow the Doan hearing here on FDL and the live-blogging seemed to fizzle out. There was a 10-minute recess, as I recall. Then some more questions and then…
I never heard if the hearing was suspended or if there was a complete set of questions from attending Representatives. It seemed like very few Democrats asked questions.
Did she complete her testimony? Or was it recessed and is she returning today?
{{{Jane}}}
Mornin’
It’s Flag Day, anyone else burning theirs today?
Elliott,
I don’t find that humorous. We are trying to uphold the standards of the founders today not mock them.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 62
you all are 1000%-all-over-it.
and.i.love.this.
perfect — i’ll check back later.
p e a c e
quake @ 77
That was my first thought.
I ditched most of my friends like that quite a while ago; they whined about the same things each time we got together, never seemed to find a way out of their rut. And I couldn’t talk with them about books I read, movies I saw, simply found I had less and less in common with them. And when I left our common workplace, that was it, done.
But it left a nifty void for extremely cool people to fill, from local activists to FirePups. Groovy!!
And there’s room for katymine, too.
Elliott @ 85
no, i just fly my patriotic U.S. peace flag.
My money is on Jane and and a knockout in round 9.
I’m taking a real esate course, and the guy who’s teaching it is a staunch conservative. He’s a big proponet of constitutional rights as long it benefits him.
He said Tuesday night that he voted for Bush becuase he’s made a $100,000 off that vote. He also said he thinks Bush is an idiot, however since he’s made $100,000 that’s all that matter to him.
egregious @ 86
i don’t think dissent is contrary to the standards of the founders.
Jane -
Strong Healing Thoughts for you being lifted up.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 19
When Michael Barone was on The Daily Show the other day, I grimaced. But he’s taken an interesting topic for his new book: the impact of the 1688 ‘Glorious Revolution’ on the American colonies, and the foundational role of the 1689 Bill of Rights for the events a century later. The founding daddy-os really did consider themselves the keepers of the flame, as opposed to the pols in London. It’s a topic that’s well-covered by British historians, because that’s the perspective from which they’re taught to see the independence movement, but less so in the US. I just hope Barone does it justice.
My point? That the fuckwitted James II trod all over habeas.
(I’ll impishly note that George III wasn’t exactly ‘overthrown’, given that he stayed king till 1830. Just not as king of a particular set of colonies.)
katymine @ 74
Thank you Katymine for your seriousness and concern for others!
This lack of concern and complete disregard is rampant in our nation. Narcissism gone wild! You are not alone in having friends who do not seem to care.
Most Americans do not want to think or talk about the greedlock that our nation is in. The lack of outrage over U.S. International policies is especially disturbing!
Most Americans are simply happy to keep their pedals to the metal and heads in the clouds!
Doesn’t anybody look past the symbols to the substance anymore?
egregious @ 86
egregious, while I can’t speak for Elliott, I took that to be a question as to whether we were going to exercise our right to free speech. Hallowing our nation’s flag means holding the principles for which the flag stands at a higher value than the flag itself, including the First Amendment.
Hence, burn the flag on Flag Day.
It’s rather like the koan, If you meet the Buddha along the road, kill him.
egregious @ 86
Second that emotion. I believe it’s important to HAVE the right to burn the flag without fear of being considered “unpatriotic,” but that doesn’t mean that I don’t respect what it stands for, among which things are, well, having the right to disrespect the country when it’s going in the wrong direction (like now, for instance).
-MS
cinnamonape @ 83
It was adjourned not long after the return from the recess. Waxman made his final comments suggesting that doan had lied in her previous testimony and should resign and then gave Davis the last word. The live blogging thread at that point was probably why it bogged down as Davis then reiterated the Rethug talking points of nothing to see here, Valerie lied to us, Where’s Sandy Berger, Clinton Gore did it too, etc.
edit: There were far more Dems asking questions than Rethugs. Only Rs were Davis, Burton, Issa, Shays, and Mica. At least twice that many Ds. But Doan tended to obfuscate, “put things in context” and generally delay when the Ds questioned her. But after the break, she was far less contentious.
cinnamonape @ 83
It is so worth watching the whole hearing. Doan is one of the most arrogant government officials I have ever witnessed give testimony. Her disregard for the constitutional oversight was alarming! Take the time to watch the hearing at C-Span
Hmm, a flag burning conversation on the lake? Don’t bite on it.
egregious @ 86
I am not mocking the founders.
I am protesting the takeover of our government by a criminal conspiracy, otherwise known as BushCo, and that includes you Fred Thompson.
waving my wings.
got to make sure my flag is raised, doncha know.
It’s rather like the koan, If you meet the Buddha along the road, kill him.
And if someone brings up flag burning and no one responds . . .
I can’t wait to see the rebuttal piece from the heads of the bar associations of Cuba, North Korea, and China. I’m sure Condi’s been working the phones hard to get that piece finished.
The biggest issue about the loss of habeas corpus is that history and civics is no longer being taught. This cultural amnesia or lack of history is why so many of our rights are so disposable.
After living in Greece for three years, my determination is that every American should have the experience of living in another country. I learned an appreciation of a lot of what we take for granted. Tap water without sand, itemized phone bill, a fire department that actually fights fires…. and the rights defined in our Constitution.
I always flew the flag, and not just on Flag Day but on Lexington Day, etcetera.
Both my parents were in the US Navy during World War II and it meant a whole lot in our house growing up, a tradition I continued until Bush invaded Iraq.
I wouldn’t burn a flag, however I would defend a person’s right to.
Millineryman @ 107
Many of us have.
sofistic @ 70
What a brilliant slave holder Thomas Jefferson was! I have read several books about him and also about his communication with Abigail Adams. Fascinating! http://womenshistory.about.com…..ladams.htm
raven @ 108
Something for which I am truly and eternally grateful.
Elliott @ 106
Why quit now? Abby Hoffman would have insisted that it’s OUR flag, not the fascist occupiers’. (Seize the day!)
-MS
Trust me folks. I had a Judge take away my rights in court of law. I am still fighting this today, 2 and a half years later. No one wants to hear about it. Everybody lies about it. The fall out from it has been absolutely abominable and I ain;t finished screaming yet….
WAKE UP PEOPLE> YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS>
Christy, thank you so much for sharing. Might we see a task force to investigate the evisceration of habeas corpus in the near future, one hopes?jane hamsher @ 41
thinking of you – wear your blue gown proudly ;)
katymine @ 105
And we’ve only got 200 some-odd years of history to study. The Brits? Almost 1000 years. And the Greeks? We’re talking millenia!
Amen to the living abroad comment!!
Full Disclosure: I’m a former exchange student in (West) Germany. I never thought so much and said so little as during my first week there.
Why quit now? Abby Hoffman would have insisted that it’s OUR flag, not the fascist occupiers’. (Seize the day!)
-MS
Steal this blog!
Scott Ritter spoke at an event in Scottsdale about his new book – Target: Iran. It was booked for 1 1/2hrs and after 3 1/2 hrs they building manager had to shoo us out. What a fascinating speaker for a Republican
He asked that everyone in the audience start reading the Constitution and the Bill of Rights which I started at our DFA meeting. One of the local talk show hosts is starting a segment with a constitutional lawyer segment on Nova M Radio. When I get the info will pass it along.
raven @ 115
LOL!
-MS
masaccio @ 63
Both AUMFs, for that matter [2001’s which should probably be carefully revised to be more specific and much more limited in language regarding targets that still require military force to deter terrorism/terrorists, and 2002’s altogether].
Governor Richardson is in fact proposing a truly Constitution-affirming, Legislative Branch-reviving idea: Not to legislatively repeal and revise the AUMFs, using 1973’s War Powers Resolution Act upon which they were based, but to simply utilize the plain language of the Constitution that grants exclusive powers for declaring (and undeclaring) war to Congress, in accordance with Article I, Section 8, Clause 11 (a different section than that providing for the enactment of laws which is Section 7).
This approach removes the need for a Presidential signature, or for Congress to override a Presidential veto. This is profound, and powerful, and would start reclaiming and affirming Constitutional powers originally vested in Congress that have been allowed to atrophy and have been co-opted by the Executive Branch for decades. [Even, and perhaps especially, with an expected challenge in court which would help to clearly establish the boundaries of the Constitution’s war powers at long last.]
Here’s a very good summary of the approach from Governor Richardson’s campaign:
I’d sure love to see Senator Webb, among others, throwing his weight behind such a necessary rebalancing of powers in our federal government.
Where there’s a will, there’s a way.
I just got into the media room; it just opened. Pretty quiet around here so far. Latest word is court convenes at 11:30 AM EST.
The pain of this is my keyboard is sticking on some letters today, especially “a.” Get reaaaaady for some fasy and funky typos today!
“What a brilliant slave holder Thomas Jefferson was!” This is the major and disturbing contradiction in Jefferson’s life! He and Abigail argued about it constantly.
Jefferson’s wealth and position was fueled by the slaves that he held, even though Jefferson did not die with a great deal of wealth Abigail and John Adams refused to ever participate in this horrendous system!
I do know that some of Jeffersons children with Sally Hemmings ended up owning land in near Xenia Ohio.
jane hamsher @ 41
May the Force be with you, Jane! Virtual visitor keepin’ you close at heart. Rest and heal.
And nomolos in 83, priceless.
katymine @ 116
Ritter is obviously unqulaified to discuss these issues, which is why the MSM ignores him:
1. He’s actually been an weapons inspector.
2. He’s actually worked in the Middle East.
3. He doesn’t have three chins.
consternatives try and spin this as liberals being soft on terrorism… actually, it is us being hard on human rights…
katymine @ 105
That’s one of the biggest single reasons I encouraged my stepson to enlist in the Army back in 1999. Traveling abroad while he got his head together and served his country would teach him more about the values of our country than anything he learned in school.
Sad that those lessons were punctuated by serving in Iraq…
Wow, my comments (2) got mangled pretty badly. Now I don’t see them at all. Anyway, my apologies, in case they show up!
powwow @ 118
1) Link?
2) Speaking of links, perhaps a link and a summary of that lengthy “summary” might be better next time. It gives credit where credit is due, and saves the bandwidth here.
Elliott @ 101
katymine @ 116
Ritter is one of my heroes! He was all over the place before the invasion (although the MSM did not have him on over their waves). After Phil Donahue had him (and other anti-invasion experts)on his program before the invasion Donahue was XXXX’s off the air.
So much for fair and balanced air waves.
allan_in_upstate @ 122
BTW…. Scott was stationed in Turkey with the best man at my wedding when I was living in Crete/Athens.
AND he scared the crap out of me….. The window for a war with Iran will close at the end of June.
ANY one not hear all the saber rattling and war talk this last week? Anyone one connect the dots?
So what is that McCain Song….. Bomb Iran?
allan_in_upstate @ 122
Nor does he fit in Rove’s shoes, have a weak chin decked with a bad porn beard, or speak in a Chipmunk-voice.
Anyway, I still would like to know when/if the ABA will form a task force on habeas corpus like then did for the 800 signing statements. Seems to me it is long overdue.
Good morning from L.A. Thanks in advance for the live blogging, Pach.
Re: keys sticking- time to clean those cumin seeds from under the letters…oh wait, that’s my G4 :-)
“He said Tuesday night that he voted for Bush becuase he’s made a $100,000 off that vote. He also said he thinks Bush is an idiot, however since he’s made $100,000 that’s all that matter to him.”
When I was stationed in the AF out in Tucson back in the early ’80’s, a local station interviewed some of the students at the U of A, asking their thoughts on the country becoming a nation of “haves” and “have nots”.
One male student replied: “As long as I’m one of the “haves” – who cares?”
Elections have been about “what’s in it for me” for so long, it has corrupted us.
We have to wake up – and right now ! !
Re: Libby
Here’s the first sentence of a recent AP article (by Matt Apuzzo) regarding the bail hearing today:
“WASHINGTON (AP) – Former White House aide I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby is headed back to court to try to forestall his 2-year prison term in the CIA leak case.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worl…..65,00.html
I have bolded the error.
Libby was sentenced to 30 months, which is a lot longer than 2 years.
Sure, Libby’s time behind bars might be reduced for good behavior, but the fact is that his current prison term is 30 months.
Why did the AP article decide to portray Libby’s sentence as shorter than it actually is?
Elliott @ 101
I see your point. Like, why celebrate Flag Day, when Habeus Corpus has been so dismantled. It’s kind of ironic, isn’t it?
But, I also see the point of people who say we have as much right to the symbol freedom that our flag stands for as The Dark Sided Ones.
But, if you want to burn it, go for it dude. Burn the motha. I see Both Sides Now, feeling a little Joni Mitchell-like today.
Rayne @ 130
you guys are killin’ me!
you left out pasty complexion, btw.
liz @ 112
Do you want to share your story? I would be interested to hear.
Kick ass Jane!
glc
Mandrake @ 136
Dammitall, I knew I was going to forget something, like that minty glow.
Oh, and the bad suit purchased in the Portly Boys department, and the haircut from their daddy’s barber…
Pow Wow how about a Gore/Webb ticket?
Senator Webbs Senate bill 759
SECTION 1. PROHIBITION ON USE OF FUNDS FOR MILITARY OPERATIONS IN IRAN.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:S.759:
Here’s the latest on the schedule today at the courthouse:
Judge Walton has some other odds and ends to deal with this morning. The hearing will begin at 11:30 AM EST. Each side will have 30 minutes. The judge will then break for lunch and come back with his ruling at 1:30. Fitz does not plan to do a presser afterward and no word on the intentions of the defense, though they bolted afterward last week.
Christy has new thread upstairs
Thanks for the update, Pach, very glad you’re there. Wish Jane could be, too, but I’m glad she’s fighting where she is, would rather she was saving herself for TBA2007.
Elliott @ 85
It’s a day to remember that the Republics, even with control of all branches of government, never passed the Flag Desecration Amendment that they previously claimed was so badly needed. As their power base shrinks, I am sure that their voices will once again rise, loudly calling for their crucial amendment.
egregious @ 86
Worship a flag – Deify a rag
Kathleen @ 140
Do flyover bomb drops constitute “in” Iran? Perhaps an edit to “against” Iran is in order? As Doan knows…grammar is hypertropic, er, ….
[sorry, nomolos, my ref to your 38 became 83. Still priceless.]
selise @ 89
Damn, I want one with the old Vietnam Peace Dove. I love that symbol.
jane hamsher @ 41
{{{{{{Jane}}}}}}
(((((((Jane)))))))
Sending lots of love your way.
Peterr @ 126 – I copied the statement (which the campaign also posted late in Siun’s weekend FDL thread), from this Mydd comment thread [I couldn’t locate the statement on Richardson’s campaign website]:
http://dan_owens.mydd.com/stor…..31211/6621
My summary of their comprehensive summary probably wouldn’t have done it justice – it’s important to understand the nuances of the argument, which I don’t think Richardson himself has actually been doing a very good job of explaining in general (but which this lengthy summary remedies, by differentiating Richardson’s proposal from the majority of the ‘AUMF de-authorization’ legislative proposals in circulation, which would involve a presidential signature or veto override). But I’ll link to an original source for it in future, if I can track one down, and simply excerpt pertinent portions.
Fred Smith on CSpan3 against dependency on foreign oil.
Part of a big market lobby group.
Strange he should start the meeting with the same language robber barons of oil like to use.
He notes fractional changes in supply drastically change pricing. Mission accomplished.
He likes the fuel efficiency standards(CAFE) to mileage improvements.
Let’s guess how many MPG the CAFE will end up reflecting.
30,35 or 40 MPG.
He mentions offshoring on South Carolina.
Alternative fuels(people who follow very closely understand that is not an energy saver and hurts watershed).
He highlights difference of fleet standards as well.
4% per annum improvement? We’ve had the ability to enable carburetor gas mileage for 60 mpg since the mid 60s, market applied, and have ignored that.
Let celebrate arriving at 45MPG within 20 years,folks!The target which is roughly 2/3 maximum efficiency based on 60s-70s level technology is where we strive under the most progressive Congressmen.
(Not actually off topic. Oil wars are part of this day’s events regarding Libby. He has is citing CEO of Dow, Southwest, etc.)
Peterr @ 114
And just how many millenia did we utterly distroy in Iraq? 8 – 10 maybe? or maybe more?
Pachacutec @ 119
we’re aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaall set, mighty leaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaader ;->
Elliott, Why not hang your flag upside down, the symbol for distress? Our beloved country is certainly in distress now.
Sorry, folks, what’s gone is gone. If you think ANY president will give up THIS power, then I have a bridge to sell you.
sofistic @ 95
In some cases the symbol is more substance than anything else. Still, for someone to come to a left-leaning blog and argue there isn’t a reverence for substance is strange. You new around here?
Rayne @ 96
I kinda like the koan about the monk who carries a woman across a river, but that’s just me. Different koans for different kinds.
PS, I’ve never seen the buddha on the road.
Kathleen @ 120
Watch the movie Bullworth! Warren Beatty and Halle Berry star. It’s a hoot.
GREAT POST!!!
I liked the part
“even the jailer must answer to a higher authority”
But Bush believes he has his own “higher authority.” He is a reptilian monarchist from 1776. One thing these religious righties don’t get is that American Democracy was a rebuttal of the duopoly of the European church/state cabal. America broke both sides of that equation. The mono-secular splintered into political parties and the ecclesiastical crumbled into a babel of belief. And the winners were the people who were free to choose and live their choices.
Elements of our commercial system and the evangelical network are working to rebuild the power arrangements that our Founding Fathers (and Mothers) rejected and died fighting. A duopoly is almost as bad as a monopoly from a social benefit perspective, but it is great for those in control.
I believe BushCo is fulfilling his Skull & Bones (can anyone say ‘group of pirates’) anointing to take their duopoly-dream organization global. This is the future.