At the risk of dampening the celebration, let me just say that Judge Walton’s decision to send Libby straight to jail is not, in any way, our victory. It is quite simply a victory for the rule of law.
If anything stood out from Pachacutec’s superb liveblogging, it was Judge Walton’s impatience with the suggestions the Defense kept making that Walton could be bullied into treating Libby differently. He was not going to be bullied by the Libby supporters (in addition to Michael Horowitz) who have sent threatening letters.
Disclosing that he has received many angry letters in response to the sentencing, wishing bad things to him and his family. He had thrown away a few, but then decided he had better begin to save them, in the event someone were to act on these threats, a record would need to remain.
And he was not going to be bullied by a bunch of lawyers with fancy credentials, either. Team Libby’s latest addition, Lawrence Robbins, tried to pull rank on Walton on two occasions. First, when Walton mentioned Scalia’s dissent in one of the cases governing the appointment of a Special Counsel, Robbins effectively told Walton that it didn’t matter what Scalia wrote in his dissent. All that mattered was that Robbins was present when Scalia read his dissent, so he has some kind of secret insight into what Scalia meant.
Walton: Also, re: Scalia, if we had a situation where the special counsel could be removed at will, this would have changed his position regarding Morrison.
Robbins: Well I doubt that since I was there when Scalia read his opinion.
Similarly, when Walton pointed out that numerous circuits had not seen the conflict in law that the Defense is banking on with respect to Fitzgerald’s appointment, Robbins purported to know what the DC Circuit will do.
Walton: Several circuit courts who have reviewed this do not come out where you are regarding the harmonizing of Morrison and Edmond.
Robbins: I think DC Circuit will reconcile them differently.
But from the very start, Walton seemed unimpressed with Robbins’ lawyering, as when he pointed out that a footnote Robbins wrote effectively argues that white collar criminals shouldn’t have to report directly to prison.
Walton: Asks for clarification on reply, clarification of footnote in defense brief. Is the argument that I am obligated to offer release on a white collar case just because other judges have done so? Just throwing out these names does not override the law, that’s not being suggested here, is it?
Robbins: We agree. The point of footnote 1 is these cases illustrate that how close the question is on appeal is important.
Walton: But the footnote does not identify the issues, and just because these people cited are high profile people, this does not mean judge should override the law. [my emphasis]
Walton treated the Amici Illuminati brief with even greater contempt.
Walton: With all due respect, these are intelligent people, but I would not accept this brief from a first year law student. I believe this was put out to put pressure on this court in the public sphere to rule as you wish. [Reggie pissed]
Robbins: These 12 scholars believe this is a close question.
Walton: If I had gotten something more of substance from them, maybe.
The only issue that Walton seemed to treat with any merit today is a CIPA issue, which Tom Maguire laid out here. This is an issue that Robbins discovered and included in his brief of yesterday. But, as Fitzgerald and Bonamici pointed out, it’s not something the Defense ever objected to, raising the real possibility that they’ve effectively waived their right to appeal on the issue.
What I think Judge Walton’s decision finally came down to, though, was ensuring that the Executive can be held accountable. From the liveblog:
Walton: Wouldn’t that undermine the purpose of this statute, that everyone is [accountable] under the laws of the US? If you work in the [White House] you still have to follow the law. If the investigative agency is linked [to] the hip with [an] investigation, then the public [can have no confidence that the] investigation is fair and just. If we have to operate this way our system of government loses significant credibility with the average Joe on the street, who already thinks the system is unfair.
The only way to ensure that we can hold the White House accountable to the rule of law, Judge Walton seemed to be saying, is to send Libby to jail.
To add one more cautionary note, here is Sebastian Dangerfield’s description of what will happen now that Libby’s team has said it will file an immediate appeal.
Here’s what Team Libby should be prepared to do. If I were them, I’d have a signed notice of appeal and check for the filing fee in the hands of a lackey, ready to file by hand the moment the sentence is finalized. The rules say they do not need a separate notice of appeal of the bail denial; they can just file an application. So they should also have in hand an application to the court of appeals for a stay of the sentence pending appeal, with a brief in support. That application is briefed on a motion schedule — not a full appeals briefing schedule — meaning Libby files the application and a brief in support and Fitz will have 10 business days to respond.
The applicable rule requires a “prompt” disposition by the court, so it does not seem that Team Libby needs to file anything separate to get expedited consideration, but they will write their application in the purplest of prose I’m sure. Like I say, if I were them — and had their resources — I’d have all this in hand TODAY, and thus start the clock as fast as possible.
The court definitely is in its summer recess, but it has panels available for emergency matters. My guess is that they are pretty busy, but I’m sure they decide lots of these, as well as dealing with emergency cases.
The sum is this: If Libby snares a [sympathetic] “summer panel,” there’s a chance he could be sprung before his report date. But my feeling is that the court is busy enough — and that Libby is going to be throwing so many issues at the court — that it’s going to be a couple of months before a decision.
In other words–Scooter Libby may yet avoid the inside of a prison cell, even without a Bush pardon. But for now, anyway, the rule of law has won the day.
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Walton!
Thank you for all of your quick reporting!
Can Horowitz be taken to task?
msnbc – libby was processed in the courthouse so he can report to jail at any time. he will not file emergency appeal today
MSNBC…
Libby was ‘processed’ before he left the courthouse
Marcy!
Emptywheel!! Thank you for your dogged determination on this case. We are the beneficiaries of your devotion. Somehow thank you does not seem enough.
Alfred Kelgarries @ 250
From downstaris. The rule of law may even come back into fashion in the USA, who knew?
Cozumel @ 6
What does that mean in practical terms?
CONGRATS MARCY!!!
I was out mowing just now & saw our 1st monarch butterfly of the season.
Rushed back to the toobz, ’cause I just KNEW!
I was THERE! She SAID so!
WOOHOO!!!
“It is quite simply a victory for the rule of law”. A much needed victory!
To the extent that there are those, unlike us, who think they are excused, exempt, and can game the system, it is “our” victory.
How do you think Cheney feels right now?
egregious @ 8
Agreed. Would you be willing to take on the trial of AGAGAG if we paid the expenses? We’d even through in a cost overrun for the impeachment trial if necessary (remember: AGAGAG won’t resign “for the children”…)
“how does Cheney feel”
Just slightly tipsy- the Veep Cocktail hour is just beginning.
kathleen @ 14
*****
AP is reporting Libby’s lawyers are rushing an emergency appeal to DC Appeals to stay the sentence…
epu’d from downstairs, needs response on current thread;
my,my @ 256
the democrats need to JUMP on this with something like;
“what does the president MEAN “he feels sorry for skooter”?
this man covered the tracks of traitors, HOW can the president POSSIBLY feel terribly for this man?”
bing
Thank you emptywheel!
at the risk of seeming like
i endorse some version of
“rove-ian math” — allow me
to respectfully disagree with
my learned colleagues, bmaz
and dangerfield, above. . .
i think “the math” means scooter
will do at least a few days in jail. . .
and that will happen before an
appellate court can rule on the
issues, such as they are, presented
by team libby. . .
just my $0.02. . .
we will see. . .
Alfred Kelgarries @ 18
Hmmmm…interesting. MSNBC just reported a few minutes ago that they would not seek an emergency stay.
What gives?
David Schuster on MSNBC video reporting the ruling here
LS @ 22
and they WILL hear it before libby goes to jail
this is far from over and libby in jail is far from for and gone concluded
Nice work, once again, EW.
Robbins’ inference that he “owns” the DC Circuit is disgusting; if other courts would not see it his way, it suggests there is no equal protection under the law in the DC Circuit. Very disturbing.
LS @ 22
They said wouldn’t file today
Alfred Kelgarries @ 18
I just heard on MSNBC a couple of minutes ago that Team Libby will not file an emergency appeal today???
Woodhall Hollow @10:
That if he wanted to report to jail now, he could.
This is depressing ” In other words–Scooter Libby may yet avoid the inside of a prison cell, even without a Bush pardon. But for now, anyway, the rule of law has won the day.”
Is the celebration for justice over all reeady?
How long can that That Libby Defense fund keep these crimes, sentences and appeals spinning?
‘This is an issue that Robbins discovered and included in his brief of yesterday.’
That is what I meant when I said Robbins was trying to deal from a new deck of cards, but all the aces were already on the table from the old deck. So when Robbins pulled this CIPA “ace” from his sleeve, it came from a new deck. However “it’s not something the Defense ever objected to, raising the real possibility that they’ve effectively waived their right to appeal on the issue.”
ALL THOSE MILLION DOLLAR LAWYERS, AND THEY MISSED SOMETHING LIKE THIS?
Someone’s gonna get chewed out royally.
kathleen @ 4
The Federalist Society states that it is founded on the principles that “the state exists to preserve freedom,” that “the separation of governmental powers is central to our Constitution,” and that the duty of the judicial branch is “to say what the law is, not what the law should be.”
That’s what they say about themselves. I say they’re a gang of thugs.
…Judge Walton’s decision to send Libby straight to jail is not, in any way, our victory. It is quite simply a victory for the rule of law.
May I, politely, point out that a victory for the rule of law IS a victory for many here.
I don’t think most people feel joy for the pending incarceration of any human being, but, feel joy for a step towards a possibility that Justice will prevail. The other day, maybe yesterday, you pointed to something during the House Oversight Commitee Hearing as a precendent for Rove…et al. Most people pay for their mistakes. That’s been my personal experience. I feel that we would all like to think that….as Judge Walton put it…everyone is accountable under the laws of the US? If you work in the WH you still have to follow the law. pasted from Pach’s (excellent) blogging this am.
off topic but way cool from think progress;
investigatine whether or not abu torture obstructed justice is like investigating whether or not water is wet
Was Libby’s wife at the courthouse today? Doesn’t look like she was with him when he arrived today.
Fitz for AG in ‘09!
kathleen @ 14
Cheney “feels” nothing.
Fern at 33 — Shuster reported earlier on MSNBC that she was in the courtroom, and that she crumbled when the Judge rendered his decision from the bench.
mc @ 35
he feels his elvis lip flutter I believe
Fern @ 33
The networks showed previous video of them arriving…from other court dates. I saw a video today of them leaving and she was there. He had that small smiley face on. She didn’t. And we all know, When Mama’s not happy….
Fern @ 33
She sure was (according to MSNBC) and broke down into tears, her head hanging down, as she was comforted by the Defense.
Remember, Silberman is their ace in the hole!
Fern @ 33
She was described as crying in the AP story.
The main and important point at this juncture is that Libby is a convicted felon, convicted for lying and obstruction of justice, and ordered to report to prison pending appeal.
No amount of spin can change this fact.
Marci:
ROFLMAO :-D
Biodun @ 42
I would like us to add our own spin though
convicted of covering the tracks of traitors
gotz to hit them hard
I think Robbins legal arguments can be summed up pretty accurately as:
“Oh, and another thing…”
nellieh @ 40
He’s an acehole
twolf1 @ 46
707!!
john in sacramento @ 43
ROFLMAO :-D
I stole Amici Illuminati from bmaz. It is not my own.
But yeah, I agree: ROFLMAO.
nellieh @ 40
OK I’m outa here again, but just wanted to sugest someone do a “Lone ranger” parody commercial, with Scooter in a blackmask, mounted on a white horse in a powdered wig, crying “HI HO Silberman, awaaayy!!”
Great overview, Marcy, you are a legaleze translator, you marry up the legal with the common vernacular real good…
Fitz!
So does Walton now turn over the threatening letters to the FBI? And who gets assigned to follow through on that investigation?
Thank you, Judge Walton! (gotta love a man who can’t be bought and who sticks to the rule of law!) I am smiling today, knowing that to some judges, justice is still blind.
(Thanks to Emptywheel, too – what a wonderful job you do)
I asked this downstairs just as this thread was opening, so I am going to respost it because I am curious.
I have a question for the lawyers here. If the White House and its staff have been using RNC emails to facilitate a violation of the law–and it seems that there is a prima facie case wrt the presidential records law–can the RNC be charged under criminal conspiracy for providing the email addresses?
That so many of us are seeing this as a great victory when in truth it is the minimum necessary for the rule of law to be followed underscores just how far away from the traditional rule of law society America has become from what it once was under the reign of Bushco and his GOP lackeys in Congress. As for the decision itself, while yes it is the first victory against those that betrayed their oaths to protect their nation’s security it is still only the first down payment on a very huge debt indeed, and a debt it is questionable may ever be properly repaid with the trials and convictions of those that committed this treasonous act in the first place.
Still though it is a start, and I hope that the Wilsons are able to take some small comfort from this beginning. As well, this issue created this blog community and it is one of the most remarkable I have ever encountered and for that I am grateful. My thanks to all involved in analyzing, covering, and dissecting all things Plame related as well on other very worthwhile issues. Be sure I will remain a loyal reader and occasional commentator for as long as this blog exists (and I am able to blog/be online of course). Thank you all very much.
kathleen @ 14
I’m not going to spend much energy worrying about how Cheney feels. He never gave a damn how we felt about anything.
TeddySanFran @ 50
I give fitz no kudos until someone is brought to justice for abusing our assets
perhaps sealed vs sealed will give me a better feeling but skooter is a pawn
I hope you folks at FDL and Marcy at TNH do not tire of my sending thanks for your work and adding so little to the discussion. When the investigations of the pension fund scandals here in Greece kick in on a major league scale, I will be glad to reciprocate (given the potential interest in the US, I am not holding my breath.
kathleen @ 28
Aside from some updated links to various op-eds and editorials, the Scooter site has had no new statement on its frontpage since June 1, days before the sentencing.
OUCH! That’s a smackdown. I’m so glad Walton isn’t intimidated or amused by this crew. It’s a good day for our democracy.
Thanks to everyone at FDL, from front pagers and commenters and mods and techs, who all make this place so special.
Huge thanks to Team Fitz and Judge Walton, too.
Where is Joe Wilson? He should be chiming in soon……..
So how likely would it be that Judge Silberman would over rule (is it over turn) Waltons decision?
Silberman of the Robb/Silberman pre-war intelligence report, that “allegedly” built a firewall around Feiths Office of Special Plans.
Judge Silbermann also the main investigator (hopefully not an underminer) for the A*P*C espionage investigation.
Sure is a small world in D.C.
Wonder how Andrea Mitchell feels after Judge Walton described her performance on Imus as “off the wall”.
Diane @ 62
I didn’t see this, is there linkerage?
YES!!!!
Yes, I know:
Which is PRECISELY why I’m celebrating!
scarecrow @ 51
Should Horowitz be investigated for his threatening remarks?
Perris @ 63 – see Pach’s liveblogging part I
CNN is reporting that due to the “appeal” of the “appeal”, Scooter will not have to report to jail anytime soon, more or less trivializing the sentence and suggesting that “appeals will fix it”.
john in sacramento @ 43
ROFLMAO :-D
ya – that cracked me up as well
good goin marcy – oops – bmaz!
Favorite bit:
Walton: With all due respect, these are intelligent people, but I would not accept this brief from a first year law student. I believe this was put out to put pressure on this court in the public sphere to rule as you wish.
Robbins: These 12 scholars believe this is a close question.
Walton: If I had gotten something more of substance from them, maybe.
Rayne @ 25
Very. Their arrogance makes it hard to feel much sympathy for Libby, but I can’t help feeling sorry for his wife and kids. It’s horrible and terrifying for every family that has a member behind bars.
Maybe this will stimulate some sense of fellow feeling among GOPers for the other America, for the rest of us who face real consequences when we mess up, but I doubt it.
From Froomkin today:
my bold
I think all involved here should be nominated for the first ever ‘Golden Weed Whacker’
award for their diligence and ceaseless wanderings into the deep legal weeds for us .
kathleen @ 14
Cheney’s quote
Marcy at the Last Hurrah
“Similarly, when Walton pointed out that numerous circuits had not seen the conflict in law that the Defense is banking on, Robbins purported to know what the DC Circuit will do.
Walton: Several circuit courts who have reviewed this do not come out where you are regarding the harmonizing of Morrison and Edmond.
Robbins: I think DC Circuit will reconcile them differently.”
So will Silberman and team allow Libby to walk?
perris @ 19
don’t hold yer breath there
Adie @ 17
Congress can prevent a pardon.
The president has the power to pardon all of Libby’s offenses against the Uited States before, during, or after criminal trial. As well as the power to commute a sentence on any condition the President chooses, as long as they are not independently unconsititional – schick v. reed.
Though Congress can not limit the president’s pardon power, it can prevent the president from executing his pardon power. Congress may impeach any civil officer before or after they have resigned or have been pardoned.
The President would be barred from pardoning Libby if Congress were to impeach Libby before the President pardons him.
It has been accepted that perjury in a civil matter regarding peripheral matter is not an impeachable offense. But perjury in a criminal matter which is not a peripheral matter as in blocking a federal investigation into violations of federal statutes and other high ranking offical could very well be an impeachable offense.
Why impeach him after the pardon?
It prevents Libby from holding future civil office. It would allow further investigation into the Niger Forgeries, CIA Leak, Fitz’s investigation, and possible interference from other officals as well as damage done to national security as a result of the CIA leak and failed prosecution of higher ranking officals due to Libby’s perjury preventing further investigations, and also increased scrutiny of officals that escaped prosecution under Fitz’s intestigation. It also would mean witnesses galore including Fitz himself and the CIA.
The point here is Congress has the power. The reality is they lack the will.
Marcy, your blog is awesome. Great, great work. Thank you for your dogged, thorough, precise, courageous coverage! Thank you for all you’ve done and continue to do!
aiogng @ 76
does waxman or leahy know this…this is HUGE, and they need to get on NOW
they need to frame it so the republicans will embarrass themselves if they don’t go along…then it will KILL them in the elections
((((((Jane!!!!))))))
Fern @ 33
I was wondering the same thing. Also wondering if Libby’s wife is providing comfort and sympathy, or giving him the silent treatment.
It must suck to know — whether you admit to yourself or not — that your husband outted a CIA agent, lied about it under oath, repeatedly, and obstructed justice. I suspect that Libby will be sleeping on the couch for the next few months.
Diane @ 62
Andrea Mitchell has “moved on” from the Libby case. She’s been traveling, domestic and overseas (to “Habana” Cuba, among other places), as NBC’s “foreign correspondent.”
Alfred Kelgarries @ 9
alfred:
a few weeks ago i wrote that we had to do battle with the republicans, that our side would work through the rule of law and proper procedure and that if we continued to win the republicans would resort to violence. i still believe this. the threats against judge walton lend support to my claim. so far there have been only letters and phone calls. if we continue to “win” there will be blood.
the soldiers are dying in Iraq. the war is in America.
Bush playing shiny object today, out touting the immigration bill and saying it’ll be paid for by the fines and monies collected from the illegals themselves.
Hmmmm, brings to mind the spinmachine for invading Iraq…it’ll all be paid for by their oil.
How’s that workin’ out for ya, Georgie Boy?
At yesterday’s news conference, Tony Snow knew very little about the Libby case and had no idea if the pardon process had been started, but he did know that there are many legal procedures to go thru before “Scoots” would go to the “slammer.”
Well, at least one opportunity to push out his “slammer” date got slammed shut.
Alfred Kelgarries @ 67
perris @ 80
John Dean @ Findlaw wrote three articles about this a while back.
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20061215.html
IMPEACH LIBBY!
re aiogng @ 77 : I’m not sure you can impeach someone who has already resigned the post. No?
Oh Lord, it’s hard to be humble
A song for Robbins.
Scotian @ 54
Right on!
dunderhead @ 77
snert!!
Prairie Sunshine @ 83
you know if he said the fines of the corporations that hire them I’d actually go along
I was almost feeling sorry for him but remembered that all he has to do is tell the truth. Easy enough, yes
Is ‘rule of law’ the same thing as ‘justice’? I wonder. 30 months for what amounts to treason.
O frabjous day for the rule of law! And I’m pretty happy too.
nevermind. I took a closer read where it says you can impeach after resignation. Interesting.
Does successful impeachment to nullify pardon in this case have to involve the Senate’s 67 or is the House enough to do the trick?
Janda @ 53
Not a lawyer, but you would need to prove criminal intent. Since the people involved all presumably have RNC e-mail accounts for political work, it would be difficult to make a case over that.
Which doesn’t mean there might not be some way to indict some RNC’ers on other grounds, but for just providing e-mail accounts is probably a non-starter.
Muzzy @ 95
I think an impeachment process might trump and therefore forestall a pardon. Someone should introduce a bill to impeach Libby pronto. His resignation has nothing to do with impeachment; resigned officials may still be impeached.
In a Senate Judiciary Committee business meeting Thursday morning, Senator Patrick Leahy (D-VT) revealed that Attorney General Alberto Gonzales once again used an interim appointment authority at the heart of the US Attorneys controversy that Congress banned in a bill sent to the President for signature on June 4.
“Senator Feinstein’s U.S. Attorney bill….repeals that portion of the Patriot Act Reauthorization that had allowed the Attorney General to circumvent advice and consent with respect to U.S. Attorneys. That bill, the Preserving United States Attorney Independence Act of 2007, has been on the President’s desk since June 4. It seems he just cannot bring himself to sign it. Instead, we were informed yesterday through the Justice Department that the Attorney General has used the power that we have voted to repeal, again,” said Senator Leahy, the committee’s chairman.
Tracy Schmaler, a spokeswoman for Senator Leahy, clarified the situation in an e-mail to RAW STORY.
“It just so happens the committee got notice yesterday, that on June 16, George Cardona’s 210 days as Acting U.S. Attorney in the Central District of California will have run out and the Attorney General will appoint him as an interim U.S. Attorney at that time. (i.e. still using the end-run authority because Bush has slow-walked signing the bill),” she wrote.
raw story
EW says: Judge Walton’s impatience with the suggestions the Defense kept making that Walton could be bullied into treating Libby differently
The larger picture…”moderate” Republicans who rubberstamped Bush’s bullying for over six years, a mostly compliant lapdog media that let itself be bullied–access! nicknames! book deals!–for over six years. A slow moving Democratic Congress that caves to Bush’s bullying, still.
And finally, Patrick Fitzgerald and his team and Judge Walton stand for rule of law. What “justice” hath wrought in 2000, Justice begins to set right in 2007.
Walton: With all due respect, these are intelligent people, but I would not accept this brief from a first year law student. I believe this was put out to put pressure on this court in the public sphere to rule as you wish. [Reggie pissed]
Do you suppose Bork ever says to himself, “Jeez, I am such a jerk!”?
Probably not.
Good job all
rwcole @ 98
Hmmm. I seem to remember from my jr high school civics class, that if a president fails to sign or veto a bill within a certain amount of time (can’t remember how long), then it is effectively vetoed, without being vetoed. It then goes back to congress, blah, blah, blah.
I wonder if that is his intent. To not sign this bill to keep that PA provision alive, without the publicity of a veto.
Woodhall 102,
I believe it is 10 days, which would make it today.
Woodhall at 102 — Was wondering about the pocket veto potential on this bill myself.
soyinkafan @ 70
Agreed. I haven’t any sympathy for Libby, but I do feel bad for his wife and family.
On the other hand, they have money, friends, and influence. They’re far better off than almost any other family in the country would be under similiar circumstances.
Just FYI as to what we’re up against…..here’s some good background stuff on Silberman and the “three-judge panel” from Salon.
Judge Laurence Silberman, George Bush’s nominee to co-chair the commission investigating U.S. intelligence on Iraq, knows quite a bit about the murky intersection between facts and ideology. The senior judge on the U.S. Court of Appeals in Washington has been near the febrile center of the largest political scandals of the past two decades, from the rumored “October surprise” of 1980 and the Iran-contra trials to the character assassination of Anita Hill and the impeachment of President Clinton. Whenever right-wing conspiracies swing into action, Silberman is there.
Seems odd that he wouldn’t recuse himself regarding the Iraq intelligence commission intersection.
fahrender @ 82
And I said then and I say now, NO! A thousand times NO!
The rethuglicans want money and power, not devastation. They allow mouthing by powerless poor people such as the ones sending those sad letters to the judge in this case, but the leaders are safely out of reach, and view four or eight years of democratic (or better yet DINO!) rule as “a nuisance”. Remember they hold the balance on the supreme court right now, and it will take more than eight years to fix that. Similarly, the money players have quietly slipped offshore in case of attempt to take legal reprisals against them when the democrats return to power. We are too heavily bound by various trade agreements which, very conveniently, ABROGATE OUR LAWS against our own citizens if they are operating overseas or through an overseas company. That was the real poison of NAFTA, BAFTA, WTFTA, that loss of sovreignty. Gonzales, Libby, even Cheney are sacrificial lambs in a game of this scale and they know it and accept that they will be “taken care of” down the road. To see this in action, look at what happened to the power players in Iran Contra, where they are today. Libby and his cohorts feel the same will happen for them and they are probably right.
As for the screaming by the various factions on the extreme right about the need to change basic social protections, notice how chimpy’s people have done almost nothing about that. Why? Because they don’t want to, they want the same secular freedoms everyone else enjoys.
So in the end, as things now stand, no rethuglican coup de etat, no fighting in the streets. Not YET…..
marcy, you are beautiful, babe. amazing, and essential reading for any thinking American. thank you, deeply.
p.s. everybody: Digby is succinct and pithy too!
“cheney, it’s just not right!!!”
Woodhall Hollow @ 101
Ding. This is called a “pocket veto”. Tony Snow’s response: “Hey, the president is fighting a war on terror! He hasn’t got time to look at every little piece of paper the democrat congress sends him!”
Mr. Vicki Toe-suck [just another ordinary Joe…yeah, right!] saying on MSNBC [tease for Hardball?] that Bushie will definitely pardon Scooter Libby. He has to, he really really has to.
My money’s on he won’t. Wishful thinking? Maybe. More likely he’s pissed that Chee-knee and Libby screwed this up so royally that it opened the door on the corrupt underworld of Bushies and made him look bad.
Yeah, right, that’s the ticket. It’s all Chee-knee’s fault. The wrong-o invasion. The Plame outing. the USAs…sure it all ties up…and my poll numbers would be up in the stratosphere again if it weren’t for Chee-knee. It’s all his fault. Let Libby twist slowly slowly in the wind….
Now, next on our list is Harriet Meirs and wondering what she will do with her subpoena. Will she answer and show up, thus setting a precident in the Bush Administration to go after Rove???
I think I’m getting smart.
Congress can prevent a pardon.
No, it can’t.
What you are trying to say is that if Congress impeaches Libby, it can impose certain sanctions, such as barring him from holding office for life. That’s probably true, although right wingnuts will point out that no executive aide like Libby has ever been impeached.
The president can’t use his pardon power to relieve Libby of the consequences of impeachment, but whether or not Libby is impeached doesn’t affect the criminal conviction, which is subject to the pardon power.
Prairie Sunshine @ 111
That was from last night’s hardball and interesting edits as in the original Ben-Veniste slapped Boris down hard.
but there is more on Gonzo
ThinkProgress.org has this
Justice Dept. IG Investigating Possible Gonzales Obstruction Of Justice Incident
pardon me while i react to the news:
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
now back to your regularly scheduled comment section.
Alfred (@107):
oh, i don’t mean anything on such a large scale. something more like three or four people over six or seven years. somewhat like the last time. whatever it takes to get the message across.
that sort of thing ……
TeddySanFran @ 97
The impeachment only trumps the pardon if he is convicted in the Senate. Until that act, the pardon can be issued. See Ford, Gerald pardon of Nixon, Richard.
I guess tonite the talking heads will all be discussing Clinton’s pardons as he went out the door.
Diane @ 62
Well considering who her husband is, and his background(*cough* Ayn Rand *cough*), I don’t think it bothered her.
ccmask @ 119
That should be funny considering Clinton pardoned Mark Rich (who Libby represented).
dipper @ 100
Probably not as this is the same Judge Bork who has been vehemenently opposed to private citizens getting large jury awards for tort lawsuits (suing for damages and punitive after injuries) who has sued the Yale club for $1M for injuries plus punitive damages and attorney fees after he fell. Kinda puts the lie to everything he has said on the topic for his entire career.
aiogng @ 77
I wish this were true. Now, I may not be looking in the right place but Article 1 section 3 reads:
Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.
LS @ 103
Ha! Man, oh man, these people are so desperate to get their way, they don’t even have the subtly to even try to look like they are gaming their little systems.
So, I guess, congress will once again have to pass this bill….and given all the blockages and whatnot that has been going on on the rethug side of the aisle, it looks like they might get to keep this little provision intact for awhile.
First:
Thank you Marcy, Jane, Patch, Jerelyn, FDL and TNH for seeking the facts and keeping us informed when the mainstream media has decided in general, to become government propaganda voiceboxes. Now that blogs win Pulitzers you should be given the honor.
Let’s nominate!
Pach, great job today. Many thanks.
Second:
Walton should be nominated as a profile of courage. He should never receive dealth threats. But this is the new world — win at all costs.
Personally, those threats deserve sunshine – more specific than Walton just referencing receiving them. Especially, if any came from anyone who carries responsibilities to the greater public.
Third:
Robbins essentially argued the circuit has a bias on Walton’s decision prior to the circuit court receiving an appeal. How can Robbins argue that? I thought judges were sworn to have an unbias court? (All jokes aside, hypothetically speaking, Bushco aside and the reality of the make-up of the DC Circuit and all…) It also hints at judicial/lawyer colusion. If there is a bias in the DC Circuit on court record (this Libby sentencing hearing), can Fitz request the appeal be heard in another circuit due to evidence of bias? Robbins should be made to explain his statement, “I think the DC Curcuit will reconcile differently.” This is not a statement of arguement for his client. This is a personal “knowing” type of comment and did not belong in the courtroom. Would all other circuits reconcile differently from Walton? Is there more legal basis or is this yet another threat? I realize the appeal goes to the DC circuit but it seems odd to go with this blatent inference as though he knows for sure that they would rule differently (obviously, they would knowing the make-up). I am not a lawyer, so I am just searching here… That specific quote deserves more investigation and public scrutiny. In terms of “the people vs…where do we the people have rights to make sure court decisions are not made in favor because of colusion? I would like to see more on the record from him regarding that specific comment in court. It would force a very real issue our justice system is facing right now.
Again, thanks to all for your amazing efforts!
rwcole @ 98
How long does Commander Guy have before a bill automatically becomes law?
I second what KLynn said!
Where can I find the link to an article called something like “Most common misconceptions about Libby trial”? I’m going to be driving during local wingnut radio this afternoon and I want to be prepared to set them straight.
Fresh thread, up and running the rails for everyone.
This congress isn’t going to impeach and convict ANYONE- NO ONE- NO HOW.
I guess it’s fun to rant about- but it ain’t a gonna happen..There are enough goopers in the senate to keep em from convicting another gooper who was seen on TEEVEE murdering fifty people.
It’s really a waste of energy to think about.
Pocket vetos will pass anyways. They are bills with enough clout to override a veto, but the President simply stalls their implementation.
Often they’re done for 89 days, then accredited to the monied interests when passed as proof of a popular political stand.
Bush Sr. tried as much with items COngress passed on him. The media tried to help, but by that time unemployment and under employment, ‘desert storm syndrome’ and pardon of his son Neil had already shaped opinion of him.
I hate to say it, but on its face, that new CIPA argument is not a bad argument.
I don’t think I follow the impeachment/pardon discussions. Pardon does not apply to impeachment – a President cannot “pardon” the Congressional “sentence” of impeachment. But that is only a sentence removing from and/or preventing further service in the goverment. The presidential ability to pardon for the criminal aspects and sentence is not affected by impeachment. So Congress can keep someone out of govt, but the President can keep them out of jail. I have never seen anything to the contrary at least.
I do think impeachment is a good idea. Look no further than Bush’s Iran expert to see why.
Hoosierville @ 106
Odd? I think ‘typical’ might be a more accurate description.
A pocket veto is a legislative maneuver in American federal lawmaking, is a process of indirect rejection . The U.S. Constitution requires the President to sign or veto any legislation placed on his desk within ten days (not including Sundays) while Congress is in session. If he does not, then it becomes law by default.
The one exception to this rule is if Congress adjourns before the ten days are up and the President has not yet signed the bill. In such a case, the bill does not become law; it is effectively, if not actually, vetoed. If the President does sign the bill, then it does become law. Ignoring legislation, or “putting a bill in one’s pocket” until Congress adjourns is thus called a pocket veto. Since Congress cannot vote while in adjournment, a pocket veto cannot be overridden.
From the U.S. Constitution Article 1, Section 7: “…If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the Same shall be a Law, in like Manner as if he had signed it, unless the Congress by their Adjournment prevent its Return, in which Case it shall not be a Law. “
Courts have never fully clarified when an adjournment by Congress would “prevent” the President from returning a vetoed bill. Some Presidents have interpreted the Constitution to restrict the pocket veto to the adjournment sine die of Congress at the end of the second session of the two-year Congressional term, while others interpreted it to allow intersession and intrasession pocket vetoes. In 1929, the United States Supreme Court ruled in the Pocket Veto Case that a bill had to be returned to the chamber while it is in session and capable of work. A three-day recess of the Senate was considered a short enough time that the Senate could still act with “reasonable promptitude” on the veto. However, a five-month adjournment would be a long enough period to enable a pocket veto. Within those constraints, there still exists some ambiguity; Presidents have been reluctant to pursue disputed pocket vetoes to the Supreme Court for fear of an adverse ruling that would serve as a precedent in future cases[1
wiki
Christy Hardin Smith @ 104
Isn’t a pocket veto only valid at the end of a session. If Reid is keeping the Congress from officially recessing, wouldn’t Bush have to explicitly veto OR allow it to become law without his signature?
From wiki
Ed*ard Teller @ 128
this one?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..02478.html
Ed*ard Teller @ 128
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..inionsbox1
5 Myths About Scooter and the Slammer
Alfred Kelgarries @ 18
What’s the emergency? All the tentacles defending Scooter (the lawyers, the PR types, the “friends” spontaneously declaring their support) are doing their utmost to keep him from serving one nanosecond of jailtime. People are desperate to keep Scooter away from a prison cell. You’d think that putting on an orange jumpsuit would have the same effect as Dorothy throwing a pail of water on the Wicked Witch of the West. Is Scooter actually going to melt if he goes to prison?
Ed*ard Teller @ 128
Well, there’s one way to alleviate road rage.
Or inflame it. I’m not sure which.
Where will you be driving today? I want to make sure I’m not on the roads, just in case.
john in sacramento @ 43
ROFLMAO :-D
She got me earlier at the Next Hurrah with this one.
LBrowne @ 139
There may be some concern, by people on the right, that Scooter will ‘fess up and spill the beans if he has to serve any significant amount of jail time.
Since Scooter’s most profitable profession, going forward, is now in the growing field of ‘right wing victimhood’, there really isn’t much for them to fear on that score.
Maybe they just really, really like him.
Maybe they just really, really like him.
Because the really really ARE like him!
Jeffery Toobin says the Prez has no authority other than a pardon.
did obama fire bob >progressive pardon
Emptywheel, out of curiousity, is that a pic of an alcatraz cellblock?
Can anyone tell me if, as an officer of the court convicted of perjury and obstruction of justice, Irving is subject to automatic disbarment, or does the Bar Association have to bring charges against him? Thanks.
147 -he has a temporary suspension in effect right now, and the bar board is reviewing the issue of permanent.
http://www.law.com/jsp/article…..5763840958
No doubt the shenanigans of Alberto Gonzales and other White House hacks at Justice has gotten under the skin of those in the legal community that cherish the laws of the land. Don’t expect judicial sympathy for the warmongering, torture sanctioning, constitution bashing people like Libby and his former associates.
If the Decider knew that he was the one who nominated Judge Walton, he might be quite angry. For Republics in general, it screws up the “liberal judge” chanting they do so effectively.
Bustednuckles @ 72
Excellent idea. May I suggest Golden Bush Whacker as an alternative idea?
Marcy…you are my hero. Thanks for all that you do.
LS @ 22
Mebbie it’s like the news org’s creepy little practice of keeping canned obits on file [pre the actual event], “just in case”.
Perchance their afternoon crew saw 2 tapes, so slapped both of em up just because they were in front of their noses.
Ain’t that the prevailing editorial policy of most of these “news” pyramid-schemes?
Castaway: Scooter is licensed in D.C. (I don’t know where else, but he likely has at least several federal court admissions as well). The D.C. Bar’s Board of Professional Responsibility is responsible for discipline, which is certainly going to happen. Libby will not be able to re-litigate whether he did the deeds — because a criminal court applies a higher standard of proof than the Board, thre will be no fact issues. The only question will be the severity of the sanction. We won’t hear anything about a final decision ’til the end of hte process.
LBrowne @ 139
We can hope he’ll melt and spill the beans on those who are scurrying about to prevent just that.
Thanks Marcy!
You covered everything here that made me crazy durning the hearing. I couldn’t believe the arrogance of Robbins. But I think Judge Reggie put him in his place nicely.
Please anybody with some legal background can you answer this question—thanks so much—-
I’ve heard of the possibility Bush may use a “respite” instead of a pardon to free Libby during his appeal process…
If that is true can Fitz examine Bush’s legality of the circumstances of that “respite” of Libby…
Exactly what would be the legal avenue (is it Congress?) to review that particular avenue of “respite” anyway…
This is all a waste of typing…Bush will pardon him as sure as the sun will shine tomorrow….remember….Bush always does the wrong thing!
TWO BIG ISSUES.
1) If Congress impeaches Libby before Bush Pardons him…it can bar a Bush Pardon of the impeachment and criminal conviction. And Libby is barred from future federal office.
2) If Congress impeaches Libby after Bush pardons him…Libby is off the hook for his criminal conviction but is barred from future federal office per the impeachment conviction.
LIBBY CAN BE IMPEACHED
The Constitution explictly provides that an impeachment conviction has no immediate effect other than to remove the officer from office AND TO DISQUALIFY HIM FROM HOLDER ANY OTHER FEDERAL OFFICE – Art I Section 3, Clause 7.
LIBBY CAN BE CRIMINAL CONVICTED AFTER IMPEACHED
The same clause provides that “the party convicted shall nevertheless, be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment, and Punishment, according to Law.”
That means an officer may be impeached when in office or after having resigned, then maybe convicted criminally for the same offense and the criminal conviction in this situation DOES NOT CONSTITUTE DOUBLE JEOPARDY.
IF IMPEACHED BEFORE PARDONED
The effect of the impeaching an officer not in office is that he is barred from future federal office and the President cannot pardon the impeached officer’s impeachment conviction.
IMPEACHED AND CONVICTED BEFORE PARDON
The effect of criminally convicting an impeached officer for the same offense is that he remains barred from future office, he remains criminally liable, and the president cannot pardon Libby for either Impeachment or criminal conviction- b/c a criminal conviction following impeachment cannot be avoided by use of the pardon power.
CONVICTED, THEN IMPEACHED BEFORE PARDON
Libby was criminally convicted of an impeachable offense while in office, if he were to be impeached for that same offense, then Bush could not pardon Libby’s impeachment conviction in the Senate.
If Libby was also convicted of the same offense criminally following impeachment, Bush cannot pardon that criminal conviction.
Here Libby was criminal convicted first. If he were now impeached for the same offense, his criminal conviction and impeachment for the same offense would bar a pardon of either conviction b/c a criminal conviction following an impeachment cannot be avoided by use of the pardon power.
But if there is a criminal conviction then an impeachment for the same offense, allowing a pardon for the criminal offense allows the criminal conviction to be avoided by use of the pardon power.
In short, it would defeat the intent of the pardon power limitation -cannot aviod criminal conviction by use of the pardon power.
Yes it can.
Yes.
So what. The Constitution trumps what “right wingnuts” say, right? An aide is a constitutional officer subject to the SAME rules of the Constition regarding removal of Constitutional officers.
Article II Section 4, says “the President, Vice President and all civil officers of the United States shall be removed from office on impeachment for, and conviction of Treason, Bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors.”
Libby, an aide, was a civil officer. Libby was not a priciple officer because he is not cabinet member (department head) which must be confirmed by the Senate. Libby was inferior officer under Article II section 2.
Who said he could? That is the point. Congress can impeach a Civil officer that has previously resigned and or been pardoned. The difference is after a person has already left office, impeachment has the effect of barring that person from all future federal office.
Futhermore, Bush can not use his Pardon power to relieve Libby of the consequences of his criminal conviction if Libby is impeached before he is pardoned. A criminal conviction following an impeachment cannot be avoided by use of the pardon power – Article 2, section 2, Clause 1.
Yes it does. If Bush cannot Pardon Libby, then Libby must serve out his sentence/conviction.
Bush cannot pardon Libby’s criminal perjury conviction if Congress Impeaches Libby (impeachment perjury conviction ) BEFORE Bush pardons him on the criminal conviction because the pardon power is barred regarding impeachment convictions after an official is impeached and barred regarding criminal convictions following the impeachment conviction on the same offense.
Congress has the power to impeach civil officers that have resigned – ie no longer in office.
The sanction in an impeachment conviction is the removal and bar from future federal office. If an offical is not in office when impeached, the effect is the same – being barred from future federal office.
So impeachment would “affect” the criminal conviction IF LIBBY IS IMPEACHED BEFORE BUSH PARDONS HIM.
The Constitution explictly provides that an impeachment conviction has no immediate effect other than to remove the officer from office AND TO DISQUALIFY HIM FROM HOLDER ANY OTHER FEDERAL OFFICE – Art I Section 3, Clause 7.
The same clause provides that “the party convicted shall nevertheless, be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment, and Punishment, according to Law.”
That means an officer may be impeached then convicted criminally for the same offense and the criminal conviction in this situation DOES NOT CONSTITUTE DOUBLE JEOPARDY.
But if an officer resigns is criminally convicted for an impeachable offense in office, then that officer can be impeached even though not in office.
The effect of the impeachment following the criminal conviction is the former officer is barred from future federal office.
In theory, since the officer is Impeached and criminal convicted of the same impeachable offense, then the pardon power regarding the impeachment and criminal conviction is barred.
Quick Summary:
Libby is criminally convicted of perjury.
Congress can Impeach Libby (impeachment conviction) for the same offense of perjury Libby was criminally convicted of.
If Congress does this BEFORE Bush pardons Libby, Bush can not Pardon Libby for either his Impeachment Conviction OR Criminal Conviction.
WHY?
Officers in office are officers that have resigned may be impeached.
Once impeached, impeached officals are removed from office and barred from future office. In addition, the President cannot pardon an impeached officer, nor can the president pardon the officer in a subsequent criminal conviction based on the same offense/facts as the impeachment conviction.
Short version:
President cannot pardon an impeached officer.
President cannot pardon an impeached officer criminal of criminal liability when he is convicted immediately following the impeachment conviction.
Yes, Bush can pardon Libby now and Libby escapes criminal liability in his perjury conviction.
But Congress can impeach Libby after this because a pardon does not bar use of subsequent impeachment proceeding against him.
WHY do this?
As stated in the other post, it bars Libby from future federal office and relaunches the CIA Leak investigation, the investigation into the investigation, and would produce testimony before the Senate from officals that Fitz could not prosecute due to Libby’s perjury/obstruction of justice.
158 – you make the unobjectionable point over and over, and then use it to bootstrap the centrally weak and IMO unfounded point.
Correct, although some try to stretch an argument and claim that out of office officers cannot be impeached, that is not the most accepted view.
Incorrect – the President cannot pardon impeachment. You never offer any support for the concept that an impeached officer becomes ineligible for a pardon.
Yes
This is where you make a leap I think no court would make. You are saying that the “except in Cases of Impeachment” means that there are no pardons available for the criminal penalties and offenses when there has been impeachment, instead of giving this the commonly accepted meaning that pardons aren’t available an impeachment conviction.
It’s a matter of construction and I don’t think that lawyers or judges would accept that construction (that the Constitution meant the President couldn’t pardon from criminal sentences as in addition to not being able to pardon from the sentence of impeachment when it says, “except in Cases of Impeachment.”
As is going around the ‘net:
My 2c; I don’t want him to go to jail…at least, not in ‘murka…
I was thinkin’ Club Gitmo. :o)
kathleen @ 14
Maybe he is thinking back about 35 years and wondering if Walton has a John Sirica streak
When Neocon’s cry, cute fuzzy bunnies sing and dance. Poor Mrs. Scooter, her bed is going to be cold and empty, sort of how Dick Cheney is.
I don’t want to sound like Robbins, but I think Libby can file his appeal today or next week or whenever he wishes–its going nowhere at the Court of App. The appeal is without substance. In particular, I think the jurisdictional issue concerning Fitzpatrick is very late to be argued at this point.
If I am Team Libby, I hope there is no argument to be made that this should have been resolved on an interlocutory basis, rather than going through the trial, and then springing it at a bail hearing.
Of course, I’m not Team Libby and I hope the sob serves every day.
So, Libby is going to jail and has been given some time to put his affairs in order before going to the Big House.
In the meantime, he might prepare himself for life on the inside, which is why I suggest he think about getting some TATTOOS…so he’ll fit in.
Suggestions for a Libby jail-house tattoo?
How about one honoring the person most responsible for his getting sent up, the person Libby has been protecting by perjuring himself and lying to federal prosecutors?
A tattoo on Libby’s chest, maybe, of a heart with the words “I LOVE DICK_cheney” or just a basic tattoo stating “I”D DO ANYTHING FOR DICK_cheney,” including going to jail with these tattoos on oneself.
Aw, c’mon, Scooter. You’ll need tattoos where you’re going, just to identify to which gang you belong. In your case, the DICK_cheney gang…which probably will be kind of lonely…unless more of your crony pals in the White House end up behind bars with you.
Woodhall Hollow @ 124
They will not have to repass the bill…they have to overturn the veto. But I think that, given the politicization of the AUSA firings and appointments of those who were intent on blocking voting rights…it would be a bit problematical for the Republicans to vote against DiFi’s bill.
CIPA
Had Libby presented the CIPA evidence, this problem with the CIPA authority might be grounds for overturning his conviction.
However, Libby DECLINED to present that evidence, so whether or not Fitzgerald had the authority to do the filings for a process that was mandated by Libby’s insistence that the evidence was crucial to Libby’s defense is kind of irrelevant.
Libby can’t possibly make the argument that an improper process for evidence he declined to present had any bearing on whether or not he had a fair trial.
But I suspect he will make it. Maybe he will claim before the Appeals Court that he couldn’t present his case because the evidence was somehow tainted by the handling of a prosecutor who wasn’t properly appointed to handle it.
Sentelle, Silberman and Rogers might decide “hey, we’ll buy that! Conviction overturned!”
In that case, I’m glad Walton decided to send the ratbastard to the slammer while he waits for an appeals hearing. If the best we can get is to lock him up for a year or so, then so be it. Maybe that will be long enough to crack him, and get the rest of the crooks into court.
Very encouraging. Somebody is making the point that being free, depends of the rule of law, not democracy, or this or that political party, or even pieces of paper, called the Constitution. I do hope this idea grows in America. It could set an example to the rest of the world. We in Britain need this from you, because we are going through a bad lawless time ourselves. Thank you Judge Walton.