Now, there’s a surprise: Another Lou Dobbs report (video link), another round of Bizarro Universe Journalism!
As Jane noted yesterday, Dobbs and his regular partner in dubious journalism, Casey Wian, yesterday filed a report on the Dreams Train — purportedly in the “regular news” portion of Dobbs’ daily CNN broadcast, though you’d never be able to tell this “reportage” from the punditry that Dobbs likes to reserve for his second half — that was, well, simply a train wreck in terms of journalistic fairness, accuracy, or general truthfulness.
Of course, Dobbs has already long since passed the point of anything remotely resembling objectivity when it comes to his reportage on immigration. Indeed, some of his recent work — particularly his nonsensical and flatly false reportage on leprosy statistics, and more egregiously his flat refusal to either correct it or even admit that it was wrong, including a bizarre kabuki dance around the facts not just regarding leprosy but his own misbegotten reportage — really raises valid questions about not merely Dobbs’ journalistic ethics, but CNN’s as well.
So let’s run the transcript of last night’s report:
- DOBBS: The Catholic Church and amnesty advocates and lobbyists today taking a new approach to further their amnesty agenda, organizing an amnesty train — legal immigrants lobbying for illegal aliens. They will be aboard the A train, riding the rails to Washington to take their case to Congress.Casey Wian has our report.(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): All aboard the amnesty train.CARDINAL ROGER MAHONY, L.A. ARCHDIOCESE: American people want immigration reform, and they want a path to legal residents for the 12 million people.WIAN: It’s another political stunt by the Catholic Church, labor organizations, and others seeking to blur the distinction between legal immigrants and illegal aliens. The Dreams Across America tour’s stated purpose is to share personal stories, dispel myths, and provide real facts about the need for immigration reform. But some of those hard facts are at best incomplete. For example, a survey showing 81 percent of Americans believe that no one in their family has lost a job to an immigrant. But organizers don’t mention the negative impact of illegal immigration on wages.
Oh really? What negative impact is that?
In reality, nearly every study of illegal immigration’s effects on wages indicates that there is no negative effect on wages, or even employment, except among the lowest tier of workers — namely, high school dropouts and manual laborers. The only study to suggest anything to the contrary was produced by Harvard’s George Borjas, who found that an influx of immigrants depressed wages and especially hurt African Americans. Dobbs’ reportage leans heavily on Borjas, but he consistently fails to report that, as the New York Times reported, nearly every other labor economist in the country has found his conclusions specious.
What Wian and Dobbs don’t tell their audiences, in fact, is that Borjas’s study is considered an outlier by nearly every other economist who has examined the issue. As the Immigration Prof Blog notes, “The largest wave of immigration to the U.S. since the early 1900s coincided with our lowest national unemployment rate and fastest economic growth.”
The big picture is that immigrants consistently help bolster the larger economy and help create a “tide that lifts all boats.” As the Cato Institute observes: “Contrary to popular myth, immigrants do not push Americans out of jobs. Immigrants tend to fill jobs that Americans cannot or will not fill, mostly at the high and low ends of the skill spectrum. Immigrants are disproportionately represented in such high-skilled fields as medicine, physics and computer science, but also in lower-skilled sectors such as hotels and restaurants, domestic service, construction and light manufacturing.”
In other words, it isn’t progressive immigration-reform advocates who are neglecting to tell the public significant information on the matter that would put it in a realistic perspective. No, that would describe Dobbs and Wian.
Of course, that was only the tip of the disinformation iceberg in this report:
- On taxes organizers say so-called undocumented workers pay $7 billion a year in Social Security taxes. But they neglect to mention the billions of dollars state taxpayers spend on education, health care and other benefits for illegal aliens.
Of course, it isn’t merely Social Security taxes that are withheld from undocumented workers’ paychecks; so are federal and state income taxes. You know, the taxes that pay for those education, health and other benefits.
The Immigration Prof Blog notes: “Immigrants pay taxes, in the form of income, property, sales, and taxes at the federal and state level. As far as income tax payments go, sources vary in their accounts, but a range of studies find that immigrants pay between $90 and $140 billion a year in federal, state, and local taxes.” Nor do immigrants disproportionately use those taxpayer-supported resources.
Indeed, a study conducted by the Urban Institute found the following: “Overall, annual taxes paid by immigrants to all levels of governments more than offset the costs of services received, generating a net annual surplus of $25 billion to $30 billion.”
Worst of all, perhaps, was Wian’s sneering approaching to the Dream Train participants who are trying to put a human face to all the statistics that are slung about by people like Wian and Dobbs — whose approach, as we’ve seen, is either to rely on bogus information from white supremacists, or to grotesquely cherry-pick certain numbers that can support their predetermined theses, usually with little regard to the truthfulness that emerges with a broader approach:
- This supporter claims her landscaping business will fail without amnesty.CATHY GURNEY, DREAMS ACROSS AMERICA: Without fair and comprehensive immigration reform in our country we soon won’t have access to legal workforce, which will result in having to close down our business, and I will leave 60 families without an income.WIAN: Organizers say all of the 100 immigrants on board the four Washington, DC-bound trains have legal status in the United States.SAMINA FAHEEM, DREAMS ACROSS AMERICA: Right now it is impacting my Latino brothers and sisters most. I want to stand with them. Because as a Muslim it is my duty to stop injustice.WIAN: But some came here illegally including Luz Diaz who was brought across the border by her Mexican mother as a small child.LUZ DIAZ, DREAMS ACROSS AMERICA: We are here because we love this country. We are here because we want to build this country, and now that we’re here we should be having the same liberties.WIAN: Diaz served in the Navy Reserves and is now a U.S. citizen with a nursing degree.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: Organizers hope stories like hers will help persuade lawmakers to give legal status to the 12 to 20 million illegal aliens now in the United States. So far, Lou, they have not succeeded.
DOBBS: Yeah. That’s sort of a strange approach, to use legal immigrants to make a case for illegal immigration and amnesty. Bizarre thinking, even by Cardinal Mahony’s standards.
Wait just a minute. Does Dobbs not listen to what his own reporter just said?
- But some came here illegally
Now, it’s true that none of the Dreamers are currently illegal. Do Dobbs and Wian actually expect an organization to put people who might be arrested and deported at any time into a high-publicity situation like this? Or are they just wishing someone on this trip would get arrested?
Remember, when we talk about Immigration Control and Enforcement, we’re talking about a government agency that actually deports American citizens if they’re merely suspected of being illegal and fail to prove their citizenship for any reason. That was recently demonstrated in the case of the 29-year-old Latino man, born in the USA, who was deported to Tijuana because he is developmentally disabled and unable to prove his status before he was shipped off to Mexico. His family is still searching desperately for him.
Of course, that perspective will never make its way into a Casey Wian report. Instead, we just get more sneering:
- WIAN: Yeah, there’s a lot strange about this effort. The organizers insist with a straight face, I might add, that this effort has nothing to do with any particular piece of legislation, they’re not trying to influence law in any particular way, they’re just trying to share stories to influence the American public and give them a better view of immigrants, Lou.
Fact: Dreams Across America does not support any particular legislation. Nor can Wian or Dobbs produce any evidence to the contrary, beyond their own demeaning innuendo. Indeed, I’ve detected nothing but a sincere effort to reach out and start a real conversation with real Americans about immigration — and putting flesh and blood to the numbers. No doubt their approach to immigration is starkly removed from that of the nativists like Dobbs, Wian, and the whole pack of paleoconservatives who are trying to drive the debate with little more than scapegoating and demonization. And it is this last factor that gives the lie to Dobbs’ final claim in this report:
- DOBBS: Well, I don’t think that the American public has demonstrated any lack of understanding of the importance of immigration or the importance of immigrants and the appropriateness of welcoming those more than 2 million folks who come here legally every year through our immigration system.The issue is illegal immigration as far as I and a whole lot of other folks can discern. But it’s I’m sure a nice train ride for everybody, no matter what. Thank you very much. Casey Wian.
This is, of course, the constant refrain we hear from Dobbs and his cohort. And it is, once again, complete and unmitigated nonsense.
If it’s only illegal immigration that the nativists are constantly on the rampage about, then perhaps they can explain why so much of their reportage is directed at scapegoating all immigrants generally, and not just “illegals.” To wit:
– The reportage on leprosy and other diseases purportedly brought to this country by immigrants does not distinguish between illegal and legal immigrants at all. Rather, it’s merely an ugly smear of the kind that nativists have used against immigrants since well before there were even laws declaring immigrants “illegal.”
– The wailing and gnashing of teeth from Dobbs and the rest of the nativist right over the Spanish-language version of the national anthem was all about the supposedly negative impact of the influx of Latin Americans (even though, in fact, there have been multiple linguistic versions of the anthem available for many decades now). This angst, again, was not inspired by illegal immigrants but, simply, Latino ones.
– The bogus reportage on the supposed plot by Mexican immigrants to retake the Southwest and much of the West and return it to Mexican rule as “Aztlan” — also known as the “Reconquista” theory — once again did not make any distinction about the legality or illegality of the immigrants; it just made all Mexican immigrants out to be part of this plot. And as I’ve explained several times, the “Reconquista” theory not only has no real basis in fact, it was in fact concocted by white supremacists, and has been a featured conspiracy of various hate groups for well over a decade now.
Let’s be honest: The nativists only use the law — a misbegotten, unenforceable and completely dysfunctional law — as a club for bashing Latino immigrants. And as the stories we’ll be examining this week will make clear, there really is not a clear and bright line between legal and illegal immigrants in any case; legal immigrants with green cards can become illegal if they foul up their paperwork (which, considering the maze we’ve erected, happens more often than not) and those who cross the border illegally are capable of finding their own paths to legal citizenship.
Perhaps more importantly, a significant portion of “illegal immigrants” are in fact family members of legal immigrants: wives and husbands, children, mothers and fathers. The same faction that loves to shout “illegal!” at these immigrants also is fond of shouting “family values!” at the rest of us. But as always, they have a funny way of showing it.
Well, as I’ve said before: If Dobbs and Co. don’t want us to be concerned that their immigrant-bashing is, at its base, bigoted scapegoating, then perhaps they’d do well to stop trotting out nakedly racist nonsense to support their cases.
Until then, I think our skepticism — not just about Dobbs’ intentions, but his journalistic ethics, as well as that of his entire news organization, which clearly is failing to hold him accountable — is thoroughly warranted.
(Superb black and white shot of a railroad crossing sign via The Jamoker.)



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Uno, Dos y Tres for Hillary…
Dave, are you going to be around for the comments today?
You’re quoting Cato for any progressive position, that’s like quoting Dubya for ethics…
FITZ!
Pach!
REG!
Objectivity is a myth.
David, you got this paragraph in twice.
David:
Dobbs is maddening!
Sometimes he really does seem to care about working folks, although I’m pretty convinnced he appreciates them for being “cannon fodder” for industry; keep them manufacturing plants humming.
But then I wake up and realize: what manufacturing plants?
OT, I know, but the Massachusetts State Legislature voted today to kill an anti-marriage equality amendment to the state Constitution.
The discriminatory amendment needed 50 votes (only 25% of the Legislature) and only got 45. Nice.
This is a huge victory for equal rights. Go here for more information.
It would be nice if my party, the Democratic Party, would formulate a positive and really progressive policy agenda, rather than just react and criticize the GOP. Too much to hope for I suppose.
Gore’s the one. “Good night, and good luck”.
This statement is so shallow and so casually cruel, I can hardly believe it has appeared on Firedoglake.
The vote in Mass. could be very important politically. Bush argued that we needed his gay marriage amendment to keep ACTIVIST JUDGES from makin gay marriage legal. If it’s the people’s representatives who have spoken- well that’s different- so such an amendment would now fly in the FACE of the people of Mass.
Casey Wian is, basically, a Gannon-a-like piece of shit reporter. No wonder he never appears elsewhere on CNN’s programming.
The premise is false, but legal immigrants have a role to play: they know how broken the current system is, and also help show that Dobbs’ line about being all about illegal immigrants — as opposed to having an anti-Latino agenda — is disingenuous in the extreme.
David, I worship you. Thanks so much for this.
Our economy currently functions with at least 12 million undocumented workers in it. That’s a significant number, by 2012 the US workforce will be over 162 million. So the “illegal immigrants” account for almost 10% of the workforce in our economy. Are we to believe that the economy is going great while simultaneously it’s being undermined by these foreign invaders? Lou Dobbs and his fellow xenophobes aren’t making sense at all.
Oh, another point I’d like to make. “Amnesty” is yet another rightwing propaganda word. Based on the language in the immigration bill, what undocumented workers would need to do to get “legit” is provide restitution. Like paying a fine for speeding, they’d have to pay money and go through an administrative process to make amends and finally get their residency documents.
What do you expect from a network that has Glenn Beck on primetime five nights a week?
OT, but good. sorry if this is a repeat:
from glenn:
Recall the illustrative incident conveyed by Jeffrey Goldberg in his New Yorker profile of Lieberman from several months ago:
Lieberman likes expressions of American power. A few years ago, I was in a movie theatre in Washington when I noticed Lieberman and his wife, Hadassah, a few seats down. The film was “Behind Enemy Lines,” in which Owen Wilson plays a U.S. pilot shot down in Bosnia. Whenever the American military scored an onscreen hit, Lieberman pumped his fist and said, “Yeah!” and “All right!”
In light of Lieberman’s call this weekend for war with Iran, that incident is actually grotesque, as it is painfully clear that Lieberman sees those bombs he wants dropped on countless Iranians as indistinguishable from the “onscreen hits” he so clumsily and embarrassingly cheered on — as invigorating and stimulating events which establish the “American power” that he so loves and craves.
LindaR: What are you talking about? Did you actually read all of David’s column?
(You may not see my first point in #13 because it’s in comment jail for now for some unknown reason. I guess it needs to pay restitution.)
From wiki:
Originally a classically conservative economist, Dobbs’ views have changed over time, and he is now a populist critic of the “excesses of capitalism,” which he identifies as globalization, offshore outsourcing, runaway film production (the outsourcing of Hollywood jobs),[4] [5] illegal immigration, free trade deals, corporate/big business influence in government and the Bush administration’s tax cuts. He claims to advocate an economic populism, warning that outsourcing, the U.S. trade and budget deficits threaten the American middle class. Dobbs tends to agree with economists who oppose long run trade deficits and outsourcing for the sake of labor arbitrage to obtain cheap labor as an example of absolute advantage which does not produce mutual gain,[6] and not an example of comparative advantage which does.[7][8] China’s currency currency peg to the U.S. dollar would be an example of this. Lou Dobbs has featured and cited economists who share his views on trade.[9][10][11][12]
In the 2000s, Dobbs has used CNN programs and columns to express his strong personal views on several subjects. He has become particularly noted for two positions: Concerning international trade, his critics say he leans toward isolationism and is particularly wary of outsourcing and offshoring in light of the increasing US trade deficit, particularly with People’s Republic of China. On November 15, 2006, Dobbs declared himself a populist.
Spotlighted to mahogany row at CNN, with the statement that Dobbs doesn’t meet my standard for good reporting, and what does it take to get it?
—
LindaR @ 9, what exactly are you trying to say? That read as a statement of fact to me, not cruel or shallow.
Without a college degree, jobs that pay well are difficult to find. Without a high-school diploma, it’s much worse: at best, you’re unskilled labor. Even fast-food places want that piece of paper (and I’m including GEDs in that).
Hey it backs Dobbsey’s truth that is all that matters.
SteveAudio @ 6
Good point. It’s the ole bait-and-switch.
It’s so much more convenient to have the lower and middle classes hating each other so they won’t have time to figure out what’s going on behind the Oz curtain.
LindaR @ 9
Here’s some data to back it up. 75% of non-degreed workers are immigrants, and 40% of those are undocumented.
In reality, nearly every study of illegal immigration’s effects on wages indicates that there is no negative effect on wages, or even employment, except among the lowest tier of workers — namely, high school dropouts and manual laborers.
Define manual laborors? Is that like skilled trades? Interesting
LindaR @ 9
Ditto
Wait a second! Is this the same Catholic church that wants to ban Amnesty International! Via the BBC/UK:
The Vatican has urged all Catholics to stop donating money to Amnesty International, accusing the human rights group of promoting abortion.
P J Evans @ 19
I’m guessing what’s she’s trying to say is that the statement infers that these particular people don’t count.
Don’t know how one can study the hypothetical:
“How would wages and unemployment be different without the twelve million undocumented workers currently here.?”
very OT – “MSNBC, the most impressive name in news” – isn’t that like saying
Applebees, the most delicious food in the world
or
Regent University, the most smartest law school in the United States
rwcole @ 10
I have one winger friend in Mass who must be weeping a puddle. He was so looking to forward to voting in the referendum…because the “people should decide”. They voted and their representatives have spoken.
That’s a representative democracy folks.
-GSD
Phoenix Woman @ 17
I am very bothered by the anti Lou Dobbs crusaders who don’t seem to watch Lou Dobbs or know what he actually talks about.
But it is not about Lou Dobbs. It’s about jobs, job quality, job pay.
Over the past 20 years, the trades have been flooded with illegal workers, and that has driven down wages. Ask a carpenter, a meat cutter, or a grocery clerk whether illegal workers have affected his or her pay or working conditions.
Undocumented, illegal workers are the inverse of closing down the furniture factory and sending it to China, but they have the same effect: to weaken the labor force, drive down wages and benefits, and destroy the labor movement generally.
This has nothing to do with racism or Xenophobia. It is all about the money.
What I find casually cruel about the comment I quoted is the underlying assumption that some people don’t deserve a living wage because of how much education they have.
That is aristocratic thinking, and it is the beginning of tyranny. And I say down with tyranny.
The illegals take away jobs from Americans. It’s plain and simple. For every illegal working a job here, that job could go to an American. And, I don’t care if it’s low-skilled or high-skilled. A job is a job. And my loyalty towards employment shall always be with Americans.
But I’m not much worried about all the Aztlan nonsense. I do think that’s a red herring from the Right. If some modern-day Santa Anna wants to round up a Mexican army and try to cross the Rio Grande into Texas, we’ll whip his Mexican army’s ass just like we did over a hundred years ago. I doubt if we’d even need to call out the US Army for help.
Ghostman
I do not like NAFTA, CAFTA, the DLC, and how corporate America and inclusive governments of both political parties steals from the third world.
For Republic politicians, issues like flag burning and gay marriage are not to be solved. They are needed, election after election, as campaign issues because they are guaranteed to excite their base. When the election is over, Republic politicians return to what they do best: plunder gathering. Fortunately for them, their base rarely notices.
LindaR @ 31
Well said. Bravo!
I may be in the minority here, but I believe the Democrats are falling into a trap by working with Bush to get immigration reform passed. I’d rather take chances with a Democratic administration and a stonger Democratic majority in Congress after ‘08. For one thing, the guest worker provisions are a concern. I don’t believe that the legislation that would result through a compromise with Bush will have the necessary labor rights provisions. More importantly, no way Bush, or any other rethug, will enforce or regulate guest worker provisions to be anything but a rip off of workers by big business.
This reminds me of no child left behind.
I’d like to see members of the DLC wash dishes in some cafe, mow lawns and change bed sheets at the local Hilton for a week.
12 million folx “amnestied?” Well, why not? It ain’t like they’re goin’ anywhere, and even if they did, they’d be back in a day. I include the Canadian illegals here, as well, and I know a few. This train thing is a great idea. Since I also know a few personal stories (and people) of Mexican origin down here in sunny tomato-pickin’ Florida, I think it would be a damned shame to deport them. It is already a shame that they have to lead “underground” lives, and I speak of some of the kids I know who are trying to manage an education on forged documents. A massive disgrace.
The responsibility for the immigrant ‘problem’ is hardly limited to the Republican Party.
Please don’t be so quick to dismiss “the lowest tier of workers.” I have friends who work in the construction industry here in the south and they say that hourly wages have declined quite a bit. $12/hour for a skilled carpenter might have been great in the late 70s but it doesn’t go very far today.
I believe Colorado has tried to recruit some help with crop picking by using state prisoners. I believe the farmers are overwhelmingly disappointed with how that has worked out.
Not good, not fast, crops spoiling.
I believe this has been happening other places. Not unskilled labor, crop pickers.
But if these bozos keep after the anti-immigrant, anti-immigrant work force, good luck to that. We’ll all be paying. One way: Higher prices for food. When we can get it.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 37
I read recently that many “illegal immigrants” work in nursing homes, as well. So let the DLC members clean out a few bed pans, as well. While we’re at it, why don’t we have Lou clean out a few, also?
I hate this whole subject quite honestly, but we have to deal with it, because people are being detained indefinitely. People like Dobbs and Buchanan are two words away from calling illegal Mexican immigrants enemy combatants, and then applying all of their detention and torture laws to them. That is what I am most alarmed about. All it does is what it was designed to do by Rove. It divides everyone – upside, left, and right. People feel free to go on the record and lob bombs at Catholics, protestants, Hispanics, Islam, blacks, whites, Asians, on and on…that is how language became less sacred prior to WWII enabling free use of hate speech as if it was patriotic…we know how that went. We have to be alert to that kind of desensitization.
There is a little bit of truth in everything, and a little bit of lies in everything.
What I am really concerned with is that the immigration issue has set up a reason to incarcerate a bunch of people in detention centers. What have we come to.
The anti-Latino, nativist, populism of the Lew Dobbs lizard brains is really screwing up Rove’s vision of the thousand year Reich. The social views of the “illegals” is a good political fit with the Republican base. They are more anti-abortion and more anti-gay than the fundie Republicans. The latino bashing, however, will be the deciding issue for which party gets their votes in the future.
Steve, yep. Exactly.
mc @ 42
Speaking for myself only, I’ve got no problem with that at all.
bg @ 41
Oh, well we wouldn’t want to pay 5 cents more for a head of lettuce now, would we? Why don’t we just bring back slavery?
Reading this again, I’m even more surprised to see that it was David Neiwert who wrote these words:
So, how big is this “lowest tier”? 15-20% of the workforce or more?
LindaR @ 31
I think you’re reading way too much into it. Especially when you consider this:
David is just saying that we should have an honest debate based on the actual impact of immigrants rather than Dobbs’ hysteria, not preemptively dismissing those who are impacted.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 37
heh..
call the program, “Out Ward Bounds?”
Oklahoma kiddo @ 37
The man running ‘against’ Larry Craig is doing something different regarding those who really work for a living.
I’m a professional, I’m educated, however I certainly remember where I came from and those beginnings were quite humble. This elitist crap has to end.
I worked summers while in junior high and high school at jobs adults still work at now. It’s hard, hard work what I did then. Anyone thinking picking cotton, picking cherries, bucking hay, topping corn, mowing lawns, etc., is a breeze – do it for a week and you’ll realize what many people undertake daily just to survive.
Perhaps ‘the twins’ could work at something useful for a week. Say like scrubbing pans in some eatery in the barrio.
Well.. here’s to Lou’s strategy for sending troops to man the “walls” on our southern frontier…. and a story to warm his tender heart:
http://www.corruptionchronicle…..exica.html
Federalized troops smuggle aliens too! Go team USA! :P
Oklahoma kiddo @ 33
Bingo! (You’re channeling me today!) :)
dobbin’s disease:
hysterical pomposity?
pompous hysteria?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 52
Offer them a reality show on Fox and mucho dinero.
LindaR @ 31
You imply it is the undocumented workers who cause this, when in reality they are just the symptom. It’s completely the fault of companies who choose to hire undocumented workers specifically to lower labor costs (and break unions). If you stop the companies from hiring undocumented workers the downward wage pressure will ease. As will the flow of workers across the borders.
Thom Hartmann wisely points out that lowered labor costs go into profits, not the costs of goods. Consumers don’t pay less, but the corporations make more. Bush’s immigration bill seeks to create a permanent underclass of workers (the guest worker visa stuff). This, to me, is the great sin of this bad bill.
Adie @ 55
That’ll be his campaign slogan when he runs for president on the Neo-Know-Nothing Ticket of 2012 (afer the demise of the Republicans as a national party in ‘08)
puppethead @ 57
I don’t see that ‘implication’ at all. And yes, of course it’s the employers
have skunk @ 4
Spoken like a true PoMo (Post-Modernist)
My take is that there are degrees of objectivity, ranging from extreme subjectivity (a totally unique perspective) to near objectivity (a reality shared by most people.) Science at its best achieves near objectivity, because that is what it was designed to do. I am more certain about this than about almost anything: If I were going on a trip to Mars, I’d rather take a scientist with me than a post-modernist.
Tweety actually made a good point on Hardball yesterday(?) when talking about media journalism: While trying to distinguish between facts and judgments(?), when it comes to the talking heads, people are looking for someone with what he called “authority”. Lou Dobbs earned his chops as a media journalism in the world of business. In other words, he came up through the ranks when he was a nobody in a job where facts and accuracy were important. But once he became an Icon, he had built up a residue of “trust” (the word tweety used). He no longer has to be accurate. Of course, the more inaccurate twaddle he peddles, the more public trust erodes, until he has his Dan Rather incident and loses his job. One would think that he has already had enough Dan Rather incidents (like the ones David presents above) to qualify– but they so far have not touched important people. What the public seems to be saying is that it is alright to lie about the little people, but what you say about important political people matters– especially if you are accusing them of misconduct.
Bob in HI
Ok, I have an entirely petty reason for not wanting the current immigration bill to pass.
I don’t want Bush to be able to point to it as his “legacy.” The only thing I want people to remember his Adminstration for is the number of criminals that were in it.
bg @ 45
It’s fortunate that racism trumps family values and corporatism. Evangelical sects are making huge inroads into the normally Roman Catholic Latino population. If the Latino vote is pushed into the Dem Party then maybe Roe can be saved and Gay civil rights advanced.
So given the aging workforce and an aging population generally, where do you think that future growth in the labour market is going to have to come from?
Yup. Immigrants.
I remember reading a piece in the Globe and Mail a while back about a general amnesty for construction workers who were working in Toronto – many of them from Portugal – because the construction industry would have pretty much collapsed if they had all been thrown out of the country.
Dobbs and his regular partner in dubious journalism, Casey Wian, yesterday filed a report on the Dreams Train —
LindaR @ 31
Thank you!!!
I think the frequent progressive response to the “immigration issue” is to focus on the individual “illegal immigrants” [or “undocumented workers”] and either their fate/what brought them here and/or the difficulty of returning them to their countries and require that they go through the legal process.
Linda quite correctly points out that this is a simplistic response.
First, it neglects the “personal stories” of all those who jobs illegal workers take or whose wages those willing to work for less drive down.
Second, it ignores what should be the REAL focus of enforcement: the employers.
Think back a few years re the “nanny tax” issue . The “nanny tax” used to be widely ignored, with great impunity, largely by upper middle class & upper class employers.
Then, after Zoe Baird et al., enforcement got serious. There’s now both a form you must file with your tax return [Form H, as I recall] on which you enter info about any domestic worker you may have, and, if you happen to use an accountant, one of the questions on his/her questionnaire will be “do you have any household workers” questions about paying social security, withholding taxes, etc. [Since I’m not in the employer category here, I’m not stating from personal experience.]
If similar energy were devoted to assuring that employers obeyed the existing law on hiring individuals without adequate documentation,
a) the jobs would dry up, or at least go underground;
b) employers would have to pay more for those “jobs no Americans want to do.”
Yep, prices/costs would go up for all sorts of things, but do we Progressives really feel comfortable getting a “good deal” off the backs of any workers, undocumented or not.
Finally, re the “personal stories” of individual undocumented immigrants: there are similar stories for those still in Sierra Leone, Bosnia, or wherever. Why should those “perfectly deserving” people be denied a chance at the American dream just because they were geographically unlucky?
The purpose of immigration laws is to arbitrate among ALL those who would like to come here and bring some order to what would instead be [now is] a completely chaotic influx and its effect on many aspects of our life.
I hope FDLers don’t read me as being “anti-immigrant” or “anti-Mexican.” I’m not. I’m just asking for some understanding of those beyond the individual immigrants themselves, as I think Linda is.
punaise @ 64
Nifty!
puppethead @ 57
I completely agree with this, and I don’t think you will find anything in my statements about blaming the illegal workers themselves for the situation. Just as Lou Dobbs does not!
He, and I, blame the employers. He even calls them illegal employers.
The people flooding over our borders, risking their very lives to get here and take these CRAP jobs, are not stupid. They are coming here because it is better than there. Sad, sad truth.
Workers of the world, unite! I want to cry.
But the workers of the world cannot unite; there is not mechanism for that — even though the corporatists of the world have united.
If I had my way, all this totalitarian identification nonsense would evaporate this instant. The answer is not to run around picking up ants and sending them back to the other anthill.
The answer is to remove the honey — prosecute illegal employers. Fine them, and put them in prison. They are destroying the fabric of our national commons for what? Greed.
Brisingamen @ 61
Not petty; selfish. And I’m with you.
Ed*ard Teller @ 1
Ed*., I keep telling you: There is too much mantequilla un dose trays, Manuel.
Sorry, it’s reflexive. I can’t help it.
Texas going blue:
http://blogs.usatoday.com/onpo…..urnin.html
if one brings religious leaders into this argument, you encourage insanity. the religion, or RICO based criminal enterprise, is in favor of massive breeding and they only get paid for warm bodies.
would you accept such a retarded and criminal mind into a discussion about your country? they serve some nazi look alike in rome.
people, no one is going to agree on this and we are all going to piss each other off. put the facts down for what is and will happen with the future growth and step back for a minute. this matter should be settled with a vote by each and every one of us in this country. our politicians do not have the required character to deal with this.
remember, they are the same scum. they take money from anyone and have absolutely no principles. and you allow them to deal with this?
I’ve read David’s book about Japanese-American farmers outside Seattle before WWII, visit Orcinus often, and generally enjoy his essays here, but I can’t remember a time when he stayed around after his essay was posted to help defend his ideas in the comments. He does that at Orcinus, though…
“This supporter claims her landscaping business will fail without amnesty.CATHY GURNEY, DREAMS ACROSS AMERICA: Without fair and comprehensive immigration reform in our country we soon won’t have access to legal workforce, which will result in having to close down our business, and I will leave 60 families without an income.”
i would like to know what she is paying these hard-working employees……..any way to find that out?
my hometown in ohio has an immigration problem…i have watched the area change over the last 10 years, and it is not good…….in too many ways to describe here..
so huge that they were on national news because of how the sheriff is handling it, and signs posted saying if you don’t speak english you are not welcome……..
i most heartedly don’t agree with this, i ‘m just saying it does exist.
the mainstay job market for the area-construction jobs, that used to pay well, and have insurance, no longer do, and are taken by immigrants. at a lesser wage.
packing/warehouse jobs in every market-from produce to regular warehousing jobs, are now taken by immigrants, at a lesser wage…..
non-union by the way.
i don’t know the solution, but there is definitely a problem. and people don’t want to see that.
and no, i am not an isolated white girl, i am blessed to have been around many cultures, personally…..so it’s not the aspect of ‘they’re not american’ it’s the aspect of what it’s doing to our economy in a very direct way……it is an impact, and is changing the dynamics of what is available for employment to REAL PEOPLE who are no longer able to work in their fields.
people hanging out at the “seven eleven” waiting to be picked up and employed…….dangerous to me. what happens to them, and what they will do for work, and the people who use them…why are they put in this position in the first place? if they were legal, would be different….it sickens me.
complicated issue, and i’m not sure i articulated it very well, oh well.
i am torn on this issue.
OT but imho important: Under my .SIG you’ll find a pointer to what I hope will be a productive conversation about what tools FDL has adopted, and might adopt in the near-term, to add simultaneous-multi-topic-style functions to this highly successful blog.
Anent this topic, Suzanne and I had what I thought was a very interesting discussion last evening (EDST), in the comments in this very blog. If you’re interested in reading that exchange of views, you are cordially invited to search for it! *grinz*
I hope you’ll participate. I’m real happy that raven has joined in “over there.” :)
I’ll be re-posting this invitation in later blogposts.
Hold the companies who hire the illegals accountable and the situation will improve vastly.
LindaR @ 67
All well and good, except for Lou Dobbs’ ridiculous comments that immigrants are bringing the plague and leprosy into our country. Xenophobia at its worst.
S.O.S. from MA @ 74
Come on down!
Dobbs argues this, too. He is firmly in favor of going after the EMPLOYERS. He recognizes that they are the reason people are willing to risk everything to come here in the first place. They are not rushing here to do 2 hours of lawn work a day for some guy that picks them up from the Home Depot parking lot, that’s just a side effect of the problem.
Dobb’s fear, and I think it’s a legit one, is that all the workers now will be grandfathered in (with some retroactive fines, etc.), and nothing changes. Undocumented workers will continue to pour in hoping to get a chance, waiting for the next time this comes around.
If we need more workers to do work “Americans won’t do”, then do it legitimately. Let in more immigrants, millions more if necessary.
I do not pretend to know what the correct answer is, but this bill is not it. The permanent underclass created by a so-called guest worker program alone should be enough reason for any progressive to say “Hell no”.
Amazing, Pat Buchanan arguing FOR putting Scooter in the joint with slow eyed Ron Christy!
* @ 48
Here’s my experience, reflecting just one corner of the world.
This spring, word came that many temporary workers who legally come to our resort town were being denied visas. Simultaneously, a crackdown of day laborers started happening based on local pressure.
There is now a total labor shortage. Hotels, landscapers, marinas and restaurants can’t fill their open positions. There are signs up everywhere saying “help wanted”.
My wife, who is a graduate student , is now earning exactly twice what she earned in her last job. She has local people offering her jobs constantly.
Lots of constituencies. Mixed emotions. Personal benefit.
I don’t know what any of that means. I do believe that having an “underclass” of workers with little or no rights because of their questionable status helps no one. I also belive that the politicos have been trying to have it both ways – keep immigration quotas low to satisfy some while ignoring the rules to satisfy others.
I do really like the idea that there is a major effort to “humanize” these people. God knows it doesnt take much for portions of this country to start wanting to nuke “them”.
I keep wondering if the proposed “guest worker” program is just a modern version of indentured servitude without the possibility of paying off the debt?
and i want to add that a whole lot of people have opinions on this that are based in nothing to my eyes=(the media and congress mostly)
it won’t affect them one way or another,
that know noone personally who is an immigrant,
and they jump right in there
i know immigrants
i know people being affected by non-documented immigrants
it’s not so black and white, or white and brown, so to speak.
The US needs a workers bill of rights, All workers.
Anything that divides illegal workers from the rest of us allows employers to play us all like a two-dollar banjo, imo.
1,546 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen oklahoma kiddo and the Firepup Patriots:
“Gore’s the one. ‘Good night and good luck.’”
Two of the Horsemen of the Fascist Apocalypse, public frenzy over “aliens” and the violent intimidation of judges and officers of the court, have seen the light of day today. Unless we impeach the entire bunch of these criminals before November ‘08, we aren’t gunna see another “free election” anywhere in this country.
The federal appellate court system through to the Supreme Court is corrupt enough to ensure that not only criminals like Libby won’t spend a day in jail but no legislation restricting the reach of the “unitary executive” will be enacted into law or interpreted to secure individual rights vis a vis the state.
Further more, the corporate oligarchy has enough control of the Democratic Party to ensure that the face of “friendly fascism” will shine through Mrs. Clinton, Barak Obama and the A*P*C/DLC front.
The only way we cut the power of the corporate oligarchy is to elect a national leader of the Democratic Party who is not in the pocket of the fascists and can command a line of communication directly to the people from the White House.
And this person has gotta be wealthy enough to be immune to corporate extortion..of course that person is Al Gore.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THEY WON’T GO AWAY WITHOUT VIOLENCE!!
raven @ 77
Brisingamen @ 79
ding ding ding ding ding we have a winner!
edit: slow eyed probably should be sloe-eyed??
The US needs to realize that ANY work that has to be done should pay a living wage, not leave the worker’s income below the poverty line.
Anyone who can’t keep their business going unless they are allowed to pay subliving wages should lose their business. Since when has it been a legitimate complaint to cry “I can’t afford my rock-n-roll lifestyle unless I am allowed to keep slaves!”
One more thing, employers love hiring undocumented workers (and in the future “guest workers) for even worse reasons than being less expensive.
These workers are not going to organize legally. They are not going to file complaints about unsafe working conditions, they rarely have any avenue to claim unpaid overtime, being short changed pay, etc.
In Los Angeles they try to tell other workers at some of the pick up areas not to work for certain contractors, because the guy will screw them out of wages, but there is an endless line of guys that will still trust the dishonest creeps.
There is a reason the WSJ editorial page wants this deal and it’s not because it’s good for American workers and great for the new immigrants.
Ron Christy: Libby’s jury was not “reasonable”. Maybe he’ll get a “reasonable” jury if he’s tried again….yeah, Ron, BRING IT ON!!!
sorry, OT again
Buchanan’s long memory will take no crap:
Scooter should see time.
I’m against Dobbs, I’m for “amnesty” or whatever you call it, but please quit the ridiculous denial: wages for unskilled and semi-skilled construction workers have dropped through the floor, and there’s plenty of evidence that the reason is the flood of cheap labor coming from Mexico and points south.
My father ran heavy construction projects in the 70s, and in those days construction work, thanks to strong labor unions, paid a damn good living. As far as I can tell, though, today’s construction workers are getting about the same hourly wages as unionized construction workers in the 1970s, but money has about a third the purchasing power. A skilled carpenter could support a family then; now, he and his wife would both need extra jobs.
Also, workplace safety has severely suffered as well, because the workers are in no position to object. My brother used to be in the construction supply business, and he was appalled at the conditions at some of his customers’ sites. Once when he complained, the foreman said something like: they’re just Mexicans. If they break, I’ll just get me some more Mexicans. And this guy was a customer so my brother had to swallow it; he quit his job shortly after that.
So yes, workers are being harmed. But it’s not by the presence of Mexican labor, but by the fact that these workers are “illegal”: their bargaining position is hopelessly weak, so they have to accept whatever they can get. Paths to legalization that don’t involve indentured servitude (”guest workers”) could help a lot.
But don’t sit there and tell me the laws of supply and demand have been repealed. These are only “jobs no American will take” because the availability of cheap labor has allowed employers to make the working conditions much worse.
FYI, new thread
and the new ‘points’ system was disgusting….bill gates was behind that…….said lack of tech workers would lead to companies (his) having to leave u.s. talk about a threat. he’s on my list now.
so, if you’re from a higher class, able to afford to be educated, you win the magic green card.
makes me sick.
and if you win the magic green card, and not a highly paid tech individual, or doctor, you hafta pay money you don’t have. can you imagine how many people would be sitting $5,000 away from citizenship and don’t have the money?
hafta choose between giving the money to sponsor a , mother, father, brother, sister, grandma or grandkid?
how many famiilies have that kind of money? and multiply it by person…….family of four, $20,000……..
on what an undocumented worker makes,,,,,,,gimme a break……
disgusting.
Ron Christy: Fitz knew Armitage was the leaker. Hey Ron, did Armitage tell Cheney about Plame? Did he tell Cheney to tell Libby to tell the others? Huh???
There were several “leakers” because it was a conspiracy Ron. The fact that Armitage told someone doesn’t even mean he was THE leaker, it means he knew stuff was going down and he gossiped about it. The Cheney group seemed to plan to methodically get it out to the press. Libby lied to protect the conspiracy – plain and simple. Stop the lies.
Fresh thread from Swopa, up and ready for the reading.
What did Dobbs — who’s married to a Latino immigrant whose parents live with him — say that is untrue? To call him anti-Latino is laughable. But his point is correct. There is a second line to the saw about immigrants taking jobs Americans won’t do, and the line is this: Americans won’t take the jobs at the price employers are currently willing to pay. What happens when the folks doing those jobs become Americans? Are they not real Americans becase they will do the jobs the “bona fide” Americans won’t? Does anybody find this as insulting, both to Americans and to manual or unskilled laborers as I do?. This is the crux of why this immigration bill is so bad — it willl create a new non-American workforce to handle those jobs through a guest worker program. I say go after the bastard employers, seal the borders, and let’s see some technological innovation. There is honor in hard work, and no type of honest hard work is beneath an American as long as it pays a decent wage.
Mauimom @ 65
Anyone who talks about “jobs Americans won’t do” needs to be asked why they don’t believe in supply and demand. There are no jobs Americans won’t do, only ones they won’t do for the pay that’s being offered, and supply and demand says that the pay should go up, whether they like it or not.
If this were pointed out more often, more people might clue in to the fact that to Republican corporate elites, people like you and me are just “labor costs.”
You have to watch Pat Buchannan smack down Ron the queen Christy on Hardball….very funny….Buchannan really hates him some Neo-CONS….BWAAAHAHAHAHAHA……..Ron was using the Sandy Burger meme to try and counter Buchannan about justice being served…..on another funny note…Ron Christy was here in Ft lauderdale 2 weeks ago cruising the leather bars and I hear he got smacked down in the bars tooo…AHhhh poor loser!
“In reality, nearly every study of illegal immigration’s effects on wages indicates that there is no negative effect on wages, or even employment, except among the lowest tier of workers — namely, high school dropouts and manual laborers.”
Glad to see I’m not the only one upset by this sentence. “Someone else mentioned who’s going to clean bedpans?” I actually did that in my younger years. That is a much needed service and people should not have wages in any of the “manual labor” and “high school dropout” categories “impacted” by illegal immigration. I don’t have the statistics; but I also know many construction workers and sub contractor workers where wages have been surpressed by illegal immigrants.
If the law allowing Mexican truck drivers to work throughout our country is passed, I guarantee the wages of our truck drivers will be surpressed. Much of this is favored by corporate interests to maximize investiment profits by not only holding down but decreasing labor costs through the importation of not cheap labor; but dirt cheap labor. I feel badly for the people who flee Mexico for the economic practices and faults of their government; but I don’t feel that labor in this country should suffer for their plight. Reducing labor costs is another move to surpressing Unionization in this country. When masses are willing to do anything to survive unionization is difficult until the situation becomes so bad that the people have no choice but to actively fight. Look at the history of the labor movement in this country which advocated for the 40 hour 8 hour work day and the elimination of child labor. Those organizations were active for a reason.
LindaR @ 31
Right on, Lindar. David Neiwert loves to rock’n roll, and rant.
His last rant on fdl was just as bad … another fine example of the slippery slope fallacy.
Way late to be read by most, but on the issue of truckers, spot on.
At the Port of LA they did a random search for the Dept. of Homeland Security and over 10% of the drivers they surveyed were not documented.
The Port did NOT want background checks on the truckers.
My friend (an independent trucker) would never work there, thinks $9-10 an hour with no pay for waiting to be loaded (sometimes hours) is not worth it.
Little anecdote to prove Lindar, Charles & Phoenix’s point: my buddy’s a contractor, was building his own house and needed trenches dug. He rented a trencher at $75/day and started doing it himself, but where we live it’s all rock, so he went down to the local Home Depot and got himself a couple laborers, who did the job manually, worked hard as hell and he tried to give ‘em lunch, they refused, and he paid em $7 an hour for five hours work. He offered for them to use the trencher, but they refused, and dug the trenches themselves. Backbreaking, honorable for less than the cost of the rental of the trencher. How can you compete with that?
Thank you David. Please stay on Dobbs. He is such a racist and a liar. I can say no more, if I ruminate too much on Dobbs, I may get apoplectic. I noticed some American manufacturers’ association also has a Dobbs watch. Since they do business with China, it seems they are consistantly offended by his out-dated Cold War stance.
AnnieW @ 78
For all those saying ‘you don’t watch Dobbs’, that’s not all he says. The leprosy lies are all about foreign disease carriers; the opposition to bilingual ballots is not about illegal immigrants. The line between legal and illegal is sufficiently blurred to be a stalking-horse for pure nativism.
I’m one of those immigrants that doesn’t stick out too much until I open my mouth: I’m white, Anglo, college-educated. But I’m still an immigrant: I’ve still waited long hours at DHS, still been treated like a third-class human, still been subject to opaque and self-contradictory regulations. And Dobbs’s nativism has sufficiently blurred the lines for my wife’s colleagues to assume that ‘immigrant’ now means ‘illegal’.
Now, all of you complaining about evil employers: are you buying meat and produce from firms that use legal labour? Because those firms aren’t turning a profit out of thin air.
It isn’t the Dobbses of the world who have blurred the line between legal and illegal, it’s the pro-illegal immigration folks who can’t even bring themselves to call anyone illegal. I don’t know how you can call someone who has a Mexican wife whose parents live with him , as Dobbs’s do, a “nativist”, unless you mean native as in Native American, since it’s likely that his wife Debi Segura’s antecedents predate his own onto this soil. And as to buying meat and produce from folks who use or don’t use illegal “labour” (sic), it seems to me that’s the whole point, we have no way of knowing one way or the other. We’d be a better country if we protected, rather than exploited, people who work for a living. That is what Dobbs and his ilk are addressing, albeit in a manner coarser than many might prefer.
Dobbsian Choice @ 105
Remember when Dobbs’s hobby-horse was outsourcing, and he named the firms that sent jobs overseas? Why isn’t he doing that for his new obsession? Because the employers use ass-covering agencies? That applied to corporate manufacturers and tech firms too.
And I can call Dobbs a nativist because he talks like a nativist and acts like a nativist. That his wife is Mexican just means he’s a nativist with hypermetropia. I don’t expect born-in-the-USAers to hear the dog-whistle politics at work, but the rhetoric of divide-and-conquer is pretty clear.
LindaR @ 9
The effects of illegal immigrants vary wildy by state, and should therefore be left more up to the states.
FD I’ll give you a prime example of why LindaR is right. I was a landscape designer trying to set up shop in a fast growing high-end southwestern town. Work of any kind over $7.00 an hour was impossible to get. (As a bizarre side effect, there were also very few working age men in this town.)
An ad appeared in the paper at a high end nursery. They offered half the wages of anywhere else, but required fluent Spanish.
In towns like this they look for two-fers: try to combine our talents in with having us also work as nothing more chain gang masters.
It makes an honest worker like me feel dirty. Because most these ‘American citizens’ also lie and steal from most of these slaving workers.
One other BIG point. I recent listened to some big mouthed ‘American’ latino leader
chide American women for not having given birth to enough ‘workers’.
“And we’re here to fill the bill”, he said.
Does he also think our open spaces are mistakes?
Just waiting for more of his ‘little workers’
to move in and fill them up?
He and other like him show a blatant disrespect and ignorance of U.S. environmental issues and policies.
He shows an ignorant disrespect of American women’s rights to do with their vaginas as they see fit.
But worse, he show a very dangerous and ominous attitude towards the minority clans of Mexico and Latin America.
WE need to put a stop to all that shit right now.
My opinion, Lou Dobbs is one of the most creditable honest reporters on tv.
Also, I was dissapointed to see this article here.
I do not like Lou Dobbs at all, but the idea that illegal immigrants working for extremely low wages DOES NOT DEPRESS WAGES is absolutely absurd, whether I have conducted a study or not. I actually feel quite a lot of sympathy for immigrants, both legal and illegal. Illegal immigrants who are merely looking for a better life for themselves and their families are not bad people; they are doing what people have done throughout human history–gone to where the work is. If the U.S. helped Mexico improve its economy and expand its middle class, you would see far fewer illegal immigrants coming to the U.S. You do not see illegal immigrants coming in huge numbers from the wealthy western democracies, do you? In fact, many people want to go to those countries instead of the U.S. these days. (There is documentation of that!) If the U.S. government passed and enforced laws saying that illegal immigrants must get the same benefits as American workers, and that employers must follow labor laws when hiring them, all motivation to hire illegal immigrants would disappear and you would soon see Americans doing jobs that used to paid near to slave wages with no benefits.