In a rather shocking move, Barak Obama's General Counsel Robert F. Bauer adds his voice to the chorus calling for Scooter Libby to be pardoned, but he believes he is coming at it from a different angle than the Libby apologists:
To Bush's antagonists on left, a pardon would be only another act in the conspiracy -- a further cover-up, a way of getting away with it. But this is the entirely wrong way of seeing things. A pardon is just what Bush's opponents should want.
A pardon brings the president into the heart of the case. It compels him to do what he has so far managed to avoid: accept in some way responsibility for the conduct of his Administration in communicating with the public about national security and in its treatment of dissent. If the pardon would be politically explosive, then this is what the administration's critics, hungering for accountability, have been waiting for. The case against this government on the larger charge of abuse of power is diminished, made even laughable, by resolving into a 30-month sentence for an obscure figure named Libby.
This may be well and fine for a Presidential candidate trying to massage a potential pardon into position as a campaign issue, but it's an extremely cynical argument, and I really can't imagine what the Obama campaign was thinking. This is about the rule of law, not political posturing. And as much as all the "liberal progressives" Bauer is preaching to at arms' length would like to see Bush publicly tied to the scandal, at this point in time we'd rather see some respect for the judicial process.
Scooter Libby has a way to go free, and that's to go to Patrick Fitzgerald and say that Dick Cheney ordered him to leak Valerie Plame's identity to Judith Miller. That's what the 30 months in jail is designed to elicit.
Libby did not just "lie," he obstructed justice. He's not some poor patsy, some innocent scapegoat, a good soldier just doing his job. But that's how the clubbish DC elite seem to see him, and in his willingness to ignore Libby's culpability in the situation and the penalty he should most assuredly pay having been found guilty by a jury of his peers Bauer shows himself to be yet another DC lawyer with little regard for the judicial process that has managed to be successfully carried out despite tremendous opposition from those it threatens. There isn't all that much daylight between himself and the Libby apologists currently screeching in horror because "things like this just don't happen to people like us."
As Christy Hardin Smith says:
This isn't some political machination point -- this is a conviction on multiple felony counts by a duly constituted jury which reviewed copious evidence and reached a unanimous verdict after weeks and weeks of trial. And a defendant who was just given an enhanced sentence by a federal judge who pointed out that the rule of law must apply equally to every person -- including public officials, whose conduct ought to take into account their fiduciary obligation to the public. If Obama's chief counsel wants to throw that out to score some political points, then Obama ought to clairfy what his commitment is to the rule of law and upholding the constitution before he should even be considered a viable candidate for President of the United States.
If you want to tie Bush and Cheney to the leak of Valerie Plame's identity, it needs to be done in the appropriate legal context. We already have a judicial system, fragile though it may be at the moment. We believe in making it work.
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UNO!
You can vote on whether Bauer is Wanker of the Day over at Kos. Tres for Sen. Clinton… or dos…
Ed*ard Teller @ 2
There is too much mantequilla on dos tres, Manuel.
By suggesting that the 30 month sentence is too harsh (as if!), Bauer is mouthing Republican talking points. And that only helps them.
Stupid!
Strike one!
WOW…..the list of who really deserves our support is certainly getting shorter…isn’t it????
Yeah, Obama is revealing himself to be just another insider…. first endorsing U.S. imperialism around the world…. now letting the good old boys go. Incredibly disappointing. Screw him.
Why does Obama hate justice?
Let’s pardon all the criminals. That will show them they can’t avoid the rule of law. Yes, sir, yes,siree.
Anyone who has a problem with this can tell Obama here.
Obama’s squishiness on this and other issues are why I do not support him.
He appears to me too ready to appease the money folks.
Edwards, on the other hand, has mightily pissed Wall Street off. During a Chris Matthews interview, Jim Cramer said Edwards is the man they fear the most.
I can think of no better endorsement.
I was ALWAYS hesitant about Obama and his pius rantings that he would display at various times…this puts it all in line for me…..another insider pandering to lawless low-info voters….plain and simple.
Good post. (”Scooter Libby has a way to go free, and that’s to go to Patrick Fitzgerald and say that Dick Cheney ordered him…”)
Harry Belafonte has been saying that he is not hearing from Obama what he needs to hear in order to support him. I don’t think this is anything HB wants to hear.
Alice @ 10
Thanks Alice
I do have to agree about an “obscure figure named Libby”. It’s not like he was so important. I mean yes, he worked at the White House but I bet millions of Americans could say that. And it wasn’t like he was the top person there. He wasn’t even the first or second. He came in after Bush, Cheney, and Rove. I mean sheesh, the 4th most important person at some place called the White House and suddenly he’s important. That is just so not right, right? I mean how much more obscure can you get.
What about Valerie? Should she have lost her career? Why is it in the small town Peyton Place on the Potomac we have more sympathy for Libby than the Wilsons? Weren’t they neighbors as well?
And what about US? We lost an asset. Presumably, she knew more about WMDs than the bozos who outted her. We are not safer and Scooter is partially responsible for that.
God, I hate these people! They are as frickin’ clueless as the residents of Versailles back in 1789. They need a visit from the Sans Coulotte for an attitude adjustment.
Actually, I don’t really give a flying f$%^ how much they gnash their teeth and rend their garments over poor Scooter in jail as long as he ends up there. Let them act like babies.
Just called Obama’s office…they are pretending they don’t know about this incident…YEAH RIGHT!
We saw some friends a few months ago that pounded on us about Obama for an entire weekend. I was lukewarm about him previously. I’m now convinced: He’d be a disaster as President.
If I wanted to vote for a Republican, I’d do it. If he’s mouthing (and voting,) RW talking points this early in the process, he’s not what I need in the White House.
-S
So is this how the Obama presidency would play games with justice?
Strategerie @ 19
——————————————
SUPER DOUBLE DITTO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bauer says: “But if the President pardons Libby, and by this act makes the case his own, he will have picked up a portion of the cost. Libby will fall back, restored to obscurity. Bush will step forward and take the lead role. He will have to explain himself; he will have to answer questions.”
This has to be the most asinine and juvenile statement that I’ve heard in ages. “The president will have to explain himself; he will have to answer questions”!!!??? Oh yeah? Who is going to make him? The ass-kissing media? The weak and spineless Democrats in Congress? He’s the deciderer! He’s the commander-in-chief! He doesn’t have to answer to anybody!
Wake up and smell the coffee, Mr. Bauer. Then, get real.
EVERYTHING is political to these guys. It’s all about them. Keeping the men & women in Iraq is political too.
I’m somewhat disappointed by this. Obama has some ’splaining to do.
After reading Bauer’s piece I agree that it is a deeply cynical, mendacious piece of crap from a long time political insider. Notwithstanding that, what does this say about Obama? Bauer is counsel ot the campaign, but does he hold any actual policy position? Does he reflect the views of the candidate or is this a personal piece?
If, in fact, he does represent Obama’s views on this, then shame on Obama. If not, then Barack needs to make a statement that he does not agree with his campaign’s counsel, and in the strongest terms. Then he needs to take a look at the control he has over his own message, and over his campaign and its personnel.
Anyway you slice it, however, this gives Barack a black eye. Is he now becoming the not quite ready for prime time candidate? Where is Al Gore when you need him?
Waxman calling for Doan to resign because she is a lying sack of sh*t.
Scooter ’squealing’, is the reason I think Mr. Fitzgerald is so adamant about a swift incarceration. I want Cheney, and/or Rove, and eventually one other individual to pay the piper for their misdeeds. Libby is a la carte. The others are the full course meal.
Davis kisses Doan butt!!!
Hugh @ 16
Well, all right then. Let’s just treat it like a practical joke.
“You’re going to jail for 30 months. Psyche! Oh, my God, you should have seen your face. Nahhh, we’re really after Rove.”
In the real world, I doubt that your position in the totem pole makes any difference when it comes to the commission of a crime.
jane you have mail - some CT news for you
Run Al Run
What do yoy expect from LIEberbush’s protege? He learned well. Scratch him from the list of even marginally credible candidates.
Bauer went out of his way to court controversy on this. He didn’t just post this on his blog. He went on the Huffington Post.
Obama cannot give a response like “that’s just Mudcat being Mudcat”.
Obama needs to unequivocally condemn Bauer’s statement. Then he needs to sever all ties with Bauer.
Morris Sheppard @ 25
I’m hearing Obama does not now support this and we’ll hopefully have something shortly, but the General Counsel is not like the guy who waters the plants. It’s an important, high profile post in a campaign and this stuff does not happen lightly.
Jane’s Assistant @ 31
I second that emotion!
This reminds me of so many Democratic “consultants” who talk publicly about their strategy instead of implementing it. Yes, it could be politically useful if Bush pardons Libby, and you should prepare to respond to that possibility. No, that doesn’t mean you say he should do it, unless you think that nothing matters except politics.
Stupid!
Jane@34….can’t wait to hear what Obama will do.
Why would Obama even touch this without direct questioning? This, quite simply, goes beyond the pale.
Is this also the position of the DLC and its other candidate HC?
both hands on head.. heavy sigh
Free Libby? Free Libby? Hmmm…. And by doing this, Bush will finally own accountability for outing Plame?
How about this instead: Libby goes to jail for the crime he committed (strange, no?). And, Congress pursues its oversight and gets Fitzgerald to the next step of “removing the sand from his eyes” and gathering the evidence that is clearly there about the “underlying” crime and we see a smidge of justice for a freaking change. Through that investigation Bush’s accountability will be made clear, instead of some faux connection arising out of a pardon.
Why is this so hard to understand? And what a lame political game plan to boot. I really, really know that Obama’s team is actually smarter than this. Right?
Who is Robert F. Bauer? Either he’s working for the other side, or he’s too dumb to be working for the right side if he can spew this: “The case against this government on the larger charge of abuse of power is diminished, made even laughable, by resolving into a 30-month sentence for an obscure figure named Libby.”
What kind of an idiot–with a law degree, yet–would imagine that Libby’s sentence resolves anything beyond the charges for which he was indicted, charged, and convicted. Once his 30 months are up, I’ll still be angry at him for what he and his folks did to this country, and for what they tried to do.
I’m angry as a taxpayer, because in addition to paying for a couple of wars and this administration’s other adventures, I also get to pay for the legal machinery required to deal with Mr. Scooter because he refused to act right. I’m angry that I paid his salary. I’m angry that I’m paying for all the other obstructions that this administration has erected to keep justice at bay.
I’m angry at Obama for hiring such a jackass. Democrats don’t need anyone whose thinking is this inverted. Leave it to Karl Rove, who shouldn’t be pardoned either.
Ahhhh poor Doan Davis and the goopers say she was abused…..everyone sigh…..
Thanks Alice — this is what I sent Obama:
Your support for a pardon for Scooter Libby demonstrates to me your lack of respect for the rule of Law. You just guaranteed that I will not vote for you — we don’t need another person with Inside-the-Beltway-itis in the Oval Office.
Jane Hamsher @ 34
How likely would it be that the campaign’s General Counsel would make a statement of this type without a candidate’s knowledge and blessing?
-S
p.s. Jane, it’s good to see you, and I hope it’s all going great.
It seems rather an elementary point, but what I (one of the aforementioned Bush antagonists) would like is that the next guy who thinks of lying to protect Dick Cheney’s skin decides he’d rather talk than spend 30 months in jail.
portia.vz @ 29
In the real world, it means everything. That is why there is one kind of justice for the Libbys of this world and why there is quite another for ordinary Americans.
If Libby had not occupied such a prominent position, the issue of a pardon would not have been raised. That is the logical contradiction in Robert Bauer’s argument. He can not be both prominent and obscure at the same time.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 27
Other than being historically scorned, what price would they pay? Bush has unfettered pardon powers. Nixon got away thanks to a pardon. His only weakness was that he cared enough to try to rehabilitate himself. Bush, Cheney, and Rove do not share that weakness.
OK, I’m zooming ahead over the other comments and will go back to read…but I just had to say I think it is a really BAD idea to allow a moronic president to pardon HIS OWN corrupt minions. Very bad. JMHO.
Bad.
Jane Hamsher @ 34
Even if he’s not someone who advises on policy or is supposed to represent the campaign to the public, it’s not just a high-level position, he’s their legal advisor, right? If Obama’s legal advisor is saying publicly that the law should be subordinate to political gain, he’d better fire his ass. We’ve had more than enough of that for the past six years.
My take on this has a nuance to it, I think.
From a legal and ethical point of view, Bush should NOT pardon Libby.
However, from a Democratic tactical point of view, if Bush pardons Libby, that might prove to be the straw that broke the camel’s back– a tipping point. The Watergate hearings were at a comparable point just before the Saturday Night Massacre.
From the tactical point of view, would a presidential pardon be “enough” of an outrage to trigger public opinion in favor of impeachment? That is what both sides are pondering right now, and that is exactly why talk of “commuting” Libby’s sentence has been raised– because it would blunt the outrage– at least a little.
Bob in HI
The fear factor, blackmail, may enter into the VP’s and prez’s thinking as it pertains to pardoning Libby. And after all, Bush and Cheney have demonstrated over and over again that they are not men of principle. It’s felt these two guys know only too well the effectiviness of blackmail and intimidation.
meet the new Barak
same as the old Barak
Chicago Machine pol.
All that ambition
No conscience.
Jane Hamsher @ 34
Thanks for the update Jane. For Obama’s sake I hope so, but I agree with xyz:
Unfortunately there is no way for Obama to put a good spin on this. Dem primary voters who are upset with the outing of Valerie and the coverup ought to tank him over this. And rightly so.
Buh bye Barack. I, for one, will not be heartbroken.
Whatever he does at this point (repudiate statement, sever ties with Bauer), Obama will still catch some flak. He’s a lawyer, for Chrissake.
Is there any doubt that by tonight we’ll all be hearing from the Free Libby crowd that ‘even Obama’s lawyer thinks he should be pardoned’?
In addition, I pointed out to Bauer, the same way I pointed out to Christy yesterday, that there’s a plan being floated whereby, should Walton order Libby to jailo pending appeal, Bush will exercise his right to grant respite, i.e. a temporary suspension of sentence, which he will use to stay enforcement of sentence ‘until all appeals have been exhausted’, which will take Scooter to the end of the term. At that point Bush will pardon Scooter and all of Bauer’s good reasons for granting the pardon (making Bush step up etc.) will vanish in the wind.
Wellll…I think it IS time for AL to run.
Bush can’t pardon Libby without being party to Obstruction of Justice and Fitzgerald is empowered past the office transition of the next President.
Nixon could not pardon himself, and in the act of Pardon, and its discussion, John Dean notes Nixon was risk of being party to Obstruction.
Bush can’t get the OVP to bail him out over conflict, and Cheney is too stubborn to resign, and Pelosi and Reid have the succession locked.
He is trying to consider gaming a recess appointment of Fred Thompson for Libby under Patriot via lame duck Gonzales.
Fred Thompson is the new Gerald Ford.
Tony Snow, “I don’t know if there is a process taking place for the pardon of Scooter Libby.”
“Process takes time”.
There we have it.
Jane - You said, “Scooter Libby has a way to go free, and that’s to go to Patrick Fitzgerald and say that Dick Cheney ordered him to leak Valerie Plame’s identity to Judith Miller.”
Is that a given, meaning the charges would be dropped AUTOMATICALLY if he comes forth now and tells the truth? Or is it simply ASSUMED that the judge will commute his sentence if he does what he should have done in the first place?
Brisingamen @ 42
My bold. ITA. Even if he retracts it, the stupidity has been published. Forget it. I like the timbre of his voice, but that’s it.
Still watching Edwards, Dodd, Gore, though.
Redshift @ 48
Does anyone really believe that this guy, who has years of experience working for politicians and on campaigns, would even think of publishing a piece like this without running it in front of his client first?
C’mon. Stupid we’re not
Bob Schacht @49:
I think the Paris Hilton case is a flag that shows us which way the wind is blowing. IF Bush is stupid enough to pardon Libby or commute his sentence, I think the public will react the same way they did about Hilton’s release.
I think Joe Six-pack’s attitude would be “the law is the law for everyone, the rich and powerful shouldn’t be treated differently.”
One down, many more to choose from.
Some of you jump to conclusions (and somtimes incorrect conclusions) so quickly.
But, hey, what do I know.
Conclude away!
Thompson as recess to pardon Libby after stepping up for AWOL.
Kestrel at 58 — A defendant always has the ability to try and strike a deal with the prosecution to alleviate some of his/her sentence by coming forward with information to advance another matter under investigation. It’s what gets done every day in the criminal process. However, any deal is subject to approval from the presiding judge. What Jane says is correct, if Libby came forward with the information he’s been obstructing from the investigation, he could very well try and strike a deal for a proffer from the government for less time — but it would ultimately be up to Judge Walton to accept that deal and impose new terms once it was presented to him. But it is done all the time for criminal defendants in all sorts of cases. This one just happens to be under a microscope because it is a high-ranking public official.
Gore/Feingold 08!!!!!!
Overwhelm his email on his campaign site.
Jane, thank you for this posting. Christy, thank you for your added insight.
After all Obama picked Leiberman as his mentor in the Senate
from the march 31 2006 Hartford Courant.
Joe-Bama!
Hugh @ 26
Did her testimony today provide anything that we didn’t already know? She seemed much better prepared today. I got up at 4:20 AM (Hawaii time) to watch this???
Bob in HI
kdh22 @ 63
Do you think that concluding that the GC of a campaign, who has years of experience in DC working for Pols and Candidates, wouldn’t publish a piece like this without running it past his client is ‘jumping to conclusions’? This isn’t some young inexperienced intern we’re talking about.
Hugh @ 45
Good point.
Jane Hamsher @ 34
Watering the plants can be important, too, dammit!
KestrelBrighteyes @ 58
I think what Jane means is that it’s the first minimum step toward possibly having his sentence commuted. It is neither automatic nor assumed, but short of Bush or the appeals court playing Calvinball with the process, it’s the way things are supposed to work.
Biodun @ 53
You really have to wonder how stupid these guys are. What Bauer did was so gratuitous. All he had to do was STFU on it. How blind can he be, how unqualified for his job, to regurgitate right wingnut talking points and think that is going to reflect well on a Democratic candidate. Has he been getting advice from Dan Burton?
Redshift @ 48
Another good point.
It’s brilliant gamesmanship to get in front of this as opposition, with the realization that a pardon makes Soocter party, a person Senior to Libby is technically obligated to respect of IIPA.
A Senior person at NSA, OVP, President.
Look at the second round of promotions, who moved up? Those most likely to suspect and in need of addition responsibility to try and claim Privilege.
Scooter’s out, Condi and Card are still there.
I’m really disgusted by this continuous barrage of escaping accountablity for the courtier class in DC. Libby committed a very serious crime of covering up potential treason by the VP. We give decades-long prison sentences to the girlfriends of drug dealers. There’s injustice in our legal system, but it’s not with regards to the ruling class.
Between idiotic ideas like this one - “Pardon Libby to slather Bush” and “take the timetables from the funding bill because it will mean the beginning of the end of the war” on our side, and the “we don’t believe in Evolution” and “Let’s Double the size of Gitmo” on the other nutty side, I’m left to wonder whether anybody really wants to be President in January,2009? Maybe we deserve Fred Thompson . . .
Question for Obama –
Is it really better to hire someone to shoot you in the foot than to do it yourself? I think you’ll be limping after this one for a while.
There seems no limit to the depths of depravity the Democrats will plumb. They’re really trying to reach “bipartisan” common ground with the Republicans down there at the bottom of the barrel. Barack The Peacekeeper Obama will be sure to follow anytime somebody else starts a parade.
The Libby Neocon Elite believe, above all, in the necessity of lying to the American people “for our own good.” The Democrats obviously admire this tactic, as practiced by Bush’s Public Relations Presidency in the name of imperial power, and are doing their best to emulate it.
PRETEND to be trying to end an occupation of a foreign land that plunders its wealth, and supposedly safeguards a “friendly” foreign nation in the same neighborhood. [Roll-out of Act Two of the A*P*C Capitulation Bill process is pending, for appeasement and appearance’s sake only, from early signals.]
PRETEND to be passing an Energy Bill that will get us off that oil that we broke international law and standards of civilized behavior (such as those we advocated and enforced during Nuremberg and now preach to the world from our hypocritical high horse) to steal from an Arab/Muslim country we violently occupy.
PRETEND we’re the “good guys” no matter what, so we can continue to believe in Hollywood’s “John Wayne” propaganda at all costs.
For those of us who appreciate the sacrifices the Special Counsel and his team (and the Intelligence Community) have made to bring a lying neocon to justice against all odds, here’s the next step:
Tomorrow, Thursday, at 11:30 a.m in Courtroom 16, Judge Walton will convene a motion hearing on Libby’s attempt to stay out of prison on bond. Following that, the final sentencing itself is scheduled for 1:30 p.m., same place.
[The snide Libby response filing today demonstrates just HOW unbelievably close this indictment came to being dismissed by way of graymail; I knew it was hand-to-hand combat down to the wire during CIPA, and then some, but I didn’t know that Judge Walton pushed the IC BEYOND their ability to release crucial details at the end of that brutal process, so that it was Judge Walton who finally had to decide to fish or cut bait in order to save this trial. He made the right (and courageous) decision in the end, but up until that point all the paths Walton traveled were leading straight to a graymail dismissal.]
dratty @ 70
Yes, I think some have jumped to some conclusions. JMO
lost_nacf_gop @ 77
No, we deserve Al Gore.
Mr.Murder @ 75
I think that Andy Card, from his home in Boston, might disagree with you, considering he’s been out for almost two years now.
Pardon of Scooter is an admission of guilt to something that is still open to discovery.
Fitz is smart enough not to game it, and remain quaint towards intent, that’s a political calculation, he’s still empowered but awaits discovery.
A pardon drives discovery.
Past that a pardon places Bush in Obstruction per John Dean’s findlaw talk of Nixon’s precedent. That is why Nixon had to resign.
Obama’s a fraud. Scoots lying to protect “shooter’s’ discarded foreskin. GORE/DEAN 08′
heartening to see so many people disgusted with Obama by this, but what about his “all options are on the table” rhetoric with regard to aggressive war against Iran, ffs?!?
for that he gets a pass, but broach support for pardoning Libby and now everyone is upset….
Jane and CHS you rip! Has Obama lost his marbles by letting this guy make a statement like this? Is Obama ripped?
Sorry, Mod(s). [I forgot to censor A*P*C, I think.]
scum rises to the top. note that it is still scum, and all the worse for being visible. what must be hidden in such a despicable coward to have a public position of pardoning someone that committed and assisted the conspiracy to commit treason is the more troubling. the junior senator has all ready sold out. we, the people, are not amused.
sporkovat @ 84
He didn’t get a pass from me.
interstingly, the obama for president campaign doesn’t have a contact email or phone number. except for donations of course.
What has two thumbs and doesn’t give money to Scooter apologists?
THIS guy!
Gore off to the sides watching, waiting, we are too Al.
RE-ELECT GORE!
and then this guy looked a little closer and found a number to call after all:
(866) 675-2008
Me dumb.
Obama’s selling out to get crossover Repub votes.
Just when I was thinking of voting for Obama - he goes and proves himself to be quite the ass.
Whether he approves of the statement or not, this is a huge window into his thinking.
The GC did not simply float this pathetic plan without Obama’s knowledge.
And if he did, what does that say?
Franco @ 6
I really don’t get it. First, we get Hillary hiring an asshat named Mark Penn. Next, we get Mudcat acting like a complete jack ass. Now we have Obama’s general counsel going the “Free Scooter Libby” crowd. WTF???? It just reinforces my belief that either Gore has to run, or Feingold should have.
He will have to explain himself; he will have to answer questions. Really? What planet is this guy living on?
So, one of Obama’s top people says this. Say, Obama comes out and strongly repudiates this — I see that as good for Obama and gets him more publicity than if he just suddenly announced, apropos of nothing, that he doesn’t think Libby should be pardoned. The cynical me wonders if this is a set up to make Obama look good. Of course that theory is blown out of the water if Obama doesn’t strongly repudiate it.
Redshift @ 36
Talking publicly about a strategy is part of the strategy. Stupid?
You know, I also seem to remember reading something awhile back to the effect that Obama has a big, big problem with the US Attorney in Chicago.
Just sayin’.
-S
I don’t think at this point the front runners for the Democratic nomination are doing very well. At all.
I remain with Gore.
OT Tony Snow: They have gone after Alberto Gonzales but have they found anything? No. (Except that he lies like a rug.)
Is the surge working?
Snow: That is such a vast metaphysical question.
kathleen @ 85
I am gonna call his Senate office and then the campaign office and find out an answer. See if Obama is a “Free Scooter Libby” supporter.
Mr.Murder @ 75
Card left some time ago, didn’t he?
Bob in HI
sporkovat @84:
I didn’t like his stance on Iran, and I prefer Edwards, but was trying to keep an open mind, when this little gem came up. It isn’t just the potential pardon that made me decide Obama is a non-starter for me.
This is truly disgusting. All it does is bolster the claim that the case is “just politics” and has nothing to do with the law. It reinforces the wingnut worldview that Bill Kristol, Ajami and others seemingly endorse, ie, that Libby is a fallen soldier whose only crime is following his beliefs and his leadership. No, you can’t lie to the cops and obstruct the judicial system, no matter who you are. That principle is bigger than anyone’s campaign and I thought was axiomatic, but evidently this guy doesn’t think so. If he doesn’t want to lose cred with people who are interested in him, Obama needs to disavow these sentiments NOW, clearly and with the bark off. Otherwise he risks (in my view, accurately) as a soft-centered pol with no core beliefs.
LS @ 93
Then he’s high.
ONLY the rabid Right believes Scooter to be innocent or unjustly accused.
None of Rush Limbaugh’s supporters (or William Kristol fans) are crossover voters and shouldn’t be courted.
brendancalling @ 91
Is this the number to Obama’s campaign?
[EPU’ed from previous thread…]
Apologies for the Spotlight problems.
All is better now. Had to change a light bulb.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 97
Let’s hope Al is watching and waiting. If so, then this is actually good news. The worse the frontrunners do, the better for Gore.
Card had Bush’s ear, he probably witnessed the threshold of accountability Bush would be party to, thus he’s liable as party to the IIPA.
It still goes to Senior positions.
Condi is being leveraged for Iran in this, as NSA she had communications between departments.
Promotions as procedure barriers were in place.
Some items changed(Rove’s loss of clearance, for example). That could change the ability to claim privilege too, but most likely the sealed information contained some expected shifts of such as Judge Walton was familiar with the review of intelligence pertaining to FISA and other such classified realms.
There were probably several pages of if/then reasonings for pursuit of action past Libby, they may await additional discovery, which sentencing itself can reveal(evidence not meant for jury can weigh in upon decisions).
It’s rather smart of Walton to stay by the book, more so for Fitzgerald. You can’t say they are beyond the bounds of procedure and reason.
PSA repeat, from my comment @ 79:
Tomorrow, Thursday, at 11:30 a.m in Courtroom 16, Judge Walton will convene a motion hearing on Libby’s attempt to stay out of prison on bond. Following that, the final sentencing itself is scheduled for 1:30 p.m., same place.
We’ll need to rely on the “MSM” for developments though, I assume, so we won’t hear anything immediately.
From Obama’s website:
My bold. This seems at odds with the “argument” of his general counsel with respect to pardoning Libby.
No, no, no, NO!
“Here’s Bush’s pardon statement:
In light of the fact that Senator Obama endorses a pardon of Libby and the fact that the prosecutor was unable to prove any underlying crime, I hereby issue this pardon.”
The media will not report anything beyond that, and once again, Dems are stooges for the administration.
I will have a much harder time voting for Obama in a primary unless he fires or disassociates himself from this idiot.
What flash123@22 said.
Now as to what this does for my thinking on Obama - I’ll have to hear what the campaign response is.
This Bauer dude is a disingenuous beltway oily lawyer - but so what? He’s offering legal advice to the campaign, right? If he were in any way involved in policy, and Obama did not deliver a smackdown, I’d be very disappointed.
As is - beltway insider calls for immunity of his caste from the law. Not news.
Strategerie @ 97
Um, care to expand on that???? Now I’m curious.
maryb2004 @ 96
The thing is, Obama will say nothing. His campaign will issue a statement and maybe Bauer will issue a phony baloney mea culpa, but my bet is you don’t hear word one from Obama.
Mudcat, and now this.
Maybe Bauer’s a Hillary agent provocateur.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 113
That is what I said. Good grief!!
Aside from the wrong-headedness of Bauer’s remarks from a legal standpoint, I’m offened that he thinks he should be telling us how to think. It’s not like we haven’t been following this case for ages, cussing and discussing it day after day. I get the impression Bauer thinks we just haven’t properly thought this through, but once we do we’ll see how wise and crafty he is. He seems to believe he’s providing guidance to the strategy-challenged.
I’m further offended that he has wrapped us up into a nice, neat category, as if we’re something quite apart from the general public in our views re a pardon. It’s hard to imagine why Obama would have this guy on his team, and tossing him off now would be, for this voter, too little too late.
SOS, Al Gore. Please.
Anyone else listening to Tony Snow’s back-peddling on the Sept evaluation?
Wonder how the “base” will feel about being suckered again.
Mr.Murder @ 109
When did Rove lose his clearance? I have seen nothing to support that statement.
AnnieW @ 103
I agree. Only the rabid right even knows who Libby is, right now. The thing is, the Repubs will use Libby as a martyr getting caught in the endless witchhunt the Dems are waging. Unless they come up with some concrete indictments from these oversight committees as we draw closer to the election, the Dems will continue to be painted as frustrated losers in the Repub narrative to the general public. JMHO
sporkovat @ 85
All of them have to say ‘all options are on the table”. But when they continue to ignore people like Flynt Leverett at the New America Foundation (who quit the Bush administration just before the invasion because he disagreed with the invasion). The New York Times blocked Leveretts article about Iran early on. When they ignore General Wesley Clark, Zbigniew Brzezinski, Scott Ritter and all of the other folks who warned against the invasion of Iraq and seem to be ignored now about talking with and negotiating with Iran. The “cakewalk in Iraq” zealots seem to be snickering.
I want to see Gore, Hillary, Obama, Edwards put on a conference about Iran. Invite Flynt, Ritter, Juan Cole, Senator Webb, General Wesley Clark, and Zbigniew Brezinski on one side of the Panel supporting negotiations and diplomacy with Iran.
On the other side of the table would be Richard Perle, Woolsey, Bolton, Ledeen, Kristol, Cheney pushing for a pre-emptive strike on Iran based on unsubstantiated claims.
Deja fucking Vu!
Amy Goodman and Chris Matthews would be the moderators. The topic Iran!
All of the Presidential candidates both Republican and Democrats would be invited to attend!
Mark Steckel @ 107
Thanks Mark. It’s a great tool, and folks miss it when it’s down.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 115
Exactly what I was thinking.
With people like this supposedly on our side how the hell are we supposed to tell friend from foe?
I will say it’s a good thing to get these out front before they do serious damage.
Fucking concern trolls hiding in our midst.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 98
I’m liking Chris Dodd.
Unless Rove lost his clearance in the last couple of weeks and I missed the comment on it, he still has his intel clearance per the WH press office. And per testimony in Waxman’s committee. And lots of other public statements on the matter, including a number of times that Froomkin has asked for clarification.
Fern @ 113
That would be Fitz right?
Bustednuckles @ 122
It is amazing to watch the spots change on these leopards they’ve hired.
i agree with jane and christy
100 percent – bauer is giving
senator obama exceedingly poor
advice here. i am off to work
the phone contacts-tree on this
specific issue, with him, right now.
c r a p. . .
where do they find these guys?
how can two lawyers be so out
of touch with “the reality” ordinary
americans would see in such a pardon?
again — crap.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 65
Would be a lot easier to do and would have a lot more options if such an attempt was made before the final sentencing order is lodged subsequent to tomorrow’s determination regarding remand.
I was hoping for Edwards/Obama. But now I’m not so sure. Gore needs to get into the race now.
This simply throwing a hat in the riung of expanding the scope of the tiral past Libby.
There’s other ways to find out information. There may be seperate ways to determine intent, it may be necessary there. Archives listen but people learn to talk indirectly, that may guage intent but there is record of the identity and capacity of said person being transferred already of record.
This isn’t quite as gray as you would expect. It would be different if no other corroboration aside from an admission of guilt(in this case a pardon) existed.
There’s enough background to go forward with what’s been in case past Libby. It didn’t just spring out of his mind. He heard of this elsewhere.
Porter Goss knew Valerie Plame, not Valerie Wilson. Her name was put out nearly a week before the leak. They phished her name in Who’s who looking for Wilson background, and probably gamed their contacts with NSA/FISA, but the ringer was Goss, a Florida insider who worked with her in the CIA and has ties to contras and other actors of the recount state in his past.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 126
Security clearance is his via**a of choice.
Jane Hamsher @ 34
scouring the feeds. . . we need the
obama “disassociation from this comment”
statement. . . wow. . .
Thanks for clarifying, Jane. Dammit, I wish Obama and the whole crew would catch a clue about being defensive and stop buying into the tortured reasoning of wingnuttia. And after watching the Doan Drone I simply can’t imagine how a thinking person could accept such, what’s the word?, “obfuscation”.
As an historical context, Ford pardoned Nixon and his gang of thieves supposedly “for the good of the nation,” even though the majority of people were against it. And you can draw a direct line from Nixon to the illegal and lawless government running things today.
Is this the same Robert F Bauer who was a pioneer
in off shore drilling from a floating vessel?
http://www.oceanstaroec.com/fame/1999/bauer.htm
Rove resigned his post for Chief of Staff before the procedure could be put in place, people like the AG bradding their feet perhaps helped.
He left for a reason, where there’s smoke there is fire.
He still has access to Bush, he doesn’t have some upper level clearance for other items unless he was reappointed such, which is disingenuous and a an example of gaming the system. The same people giving him time to resign/reshuffle probably abate further followup.
FOIA may work for the Wilsons counsel for that, it’s doubtful the press would get an official explanation, Nexis should show the chronology of the horizontal/vertical transfers he undertook.
kathleen at 138 — no, not the same person — unless they rapidly aged him for that picture and then de-aged him for his HuffPo shot.
kathleen @ 138
Not.
*dragging their feet
Are Libby and Bauer connected at their roots anywhere?
kathleen @ 123
Tweety would drown in his spittle.
Biodun @ 141
Thanks
Arca @ 117
And maybe he’s really JACK Bauer.
If this keeps up I don’t know who I will be able to vote for.
Biodun @ 141
Not the same guy, but it may be his son. Who knows.
Fern @ 114
Hi Fern,
I’m still frantically searching for the exact quotes. At the same time, I remember reading at the time and thinking, “That’s odd.”
Here’s a couple of links in the meantime. I’m thinking this may have something to do with it.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/p.....05.article
Obama’s house is built on a piece of land he obtained from Mr. Rezko, who was indicted by the US Attorney’s Office.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/p.....ma.article
Hmmm. They’re closer than initially thought.
I’ll keep looking for the exact quote, and I apologize I didn’t have it to begin with.
-S
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 144
You must not watch Hardball. Matthews hammers the zealots!
This is OT but not really
Conyers lays out his case on Kos. Lots of details
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/6/13/12144/9060
Its happening!
From Bauer’s post at HuffPost:
My bold. This is where Bauer is truly deluded. Truly.
Bob Schacht @ 49
Hey Bob in HI, are you the same Bob from the bluegrass-l? Methinks you are.
How’s it going?
I don’t think anything can break the camel’s back at this point: I don’t think the democrats have the gumption to impeach, even if Bush ate a live baby and washed it down with puppy blood.
kathleen @ 138
Bob Bauer is probably the leading Democratic expert on election law -
Let me tell you why the average American, pick a party, will resent and fight any kind of pardon. During this administration, any kid convicted of possessing pot loses student loans and federal grants to college. This is impacting many families in big ways; this war on drugs has become a war on some of the most regular families in America.
These people, who remember nothing, hold these kids and their families accountable and they will not be forgetting it.
Biodun @ 152
Does anyone know a phone number for the Obama campaign? One where you can talk to a real person? I tried his Senate office, but we must be burning up the phone lines to it.
ifthethunderdontgetya @ 4
I thought Mr. Bauer was a Republican until I read “Obama campaign advisor.”
?!?
Supporting a pardon for a convicted perjurer and probable traitor is supposed to reassure me about Obama’s fitness for the presidency exactly how?
Rove losing his clearance would only be symbolic. There’s no one in the WH who would not show Rove items or give him info.
Obama knows Bush will not play that card, it makes him more liable. It’s gamesmanship. P*ker bluff.
Jesus. Ezra Klein at TAPPED thinks Bauer’s piece is a super idea! WTF.
Mr.Murder @ 139
Rove is currently Chief of Staff for the Bush White House. He has NEVER resigned from that position and still has his security clearance. I don’t know where you’re getting your info, but it isn’t very accurate.
Are you perhaps confusing Rove with Libby who was Cheney’s Chief of Staff?
scarecrow @ 124
Sinces its been so stable for quite a while I haven’t been monitoring the comment threads…
Please let me know via email if it acts up in the future. There are generic support email addresses on the web site, plus Jane, Pac, and TRex have my personal email address.
Arca @ 116
I doubt it. IIRC, Bauer is a Libertarian who was formerly a Republican.
Bob in HI
Headline at Raw Story;
Libby wants what Martha Stewart got
I’m thinking kitchen duty ain’t your style, Scooter.
OT Having slammed Michael Gordon’s NYT article yesterday, I would like to point out a much better article today by Damien Cave on the situation in Iraq. It does not talk about the military situation or emphasize sufficiently (to my mind) the importance of an election law for local and provincial offices but it does do an excellent job of showing why benchmarks are not going to be met and how a political settlement is very much not in the cards.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06.....ref=slogin
Rove took a temporary leave for the campaign and retook staff. He gamed the system, as procedure was possibly kicking in, he went back afterwards and nobody pressed the same scrutiny.
Recess power abides with Patriot… they can game the rules if need be.
OT-In a speech in Orange County several weeks ago ‘Freddy the Freeloader’ Thompson wants the poor and elderly to make a sacrifice. http://noquarter.typepad.com/m.....on_i.html# more whoa!
Kathleen @ 122
Indeed they do.
But a candidate who was a real leader and/or a man of principle would be able to rise outside of corrupt groupthink, and with vision clarity and rhetorical skill could help turn the discourse in a new direction.
My issue is that Obama has too many people beleiving he is that guy, and therefore he is obstructing the way for anyone who does have the vision … maybe Feingold, Kuchinich, Mike Gravel, possibly even Gore.
cheers to Mr Sheppard @ 88
Biodun @ 152
Where are Bauer and Libby connected at their roots?scott @ 160
Roots? The left goes right (wrong) when it comes to roots!
Alice @ 10
Thanks, Alice. Just expressed my views at that site - VERY politely, I might add.
I notice a disclaimer on Bauer’s HuffPost post that his views are not those of his firm’s clients, but I asked that Obama separate himself specifically from this point of view.
Tried calling Obama’s Senate office and the campaign. No real live people picking up the phone. So even though he didn’t get my message, I’m guessing he’s hearing the same thing from plenty of others.
Bob Schacht @ 163
Ouch! The shoe is starting to fit. Hillaryous.
Rove is “Deputy Chief of Staff”. The current White House Chief of Staff is Joshua B. Bolten, who has served in this position since April 14, 2006.
Bob Schacht @ 163
Oh. Enough said.
tejanarusa at 169 — The disclaimer was added after the fact in the last few minutes. FYI.
Biodun @ 132
Ah contraire - the Honorable Al Gore should not “get into the race now” and remain above the fray for many reasons, not the least being the crowded field of candidates and the imploding Bush gang. Not to mention the near certainty of receiving the Nobel Peace Prize in Oslo in the fall.
Gore is in a league of his own and well worth waiting for such poetic justice to bite the campaigns of Obama, Hillary etc. et al.
ReElect President Al Gore in 2008. Accept no substitute.
Here is Obama’s email contact:
For his campaign.
OH, FOR HEAVEN’S SAKE. THE POSTER IS BRAIN DEAD ATTTRIBUTING THE QUOTE TO OBAMA AND THE REST OF YOU ARE IDIOTS FOR FOLLOWING IT. BOB BAUER IS JUST A DEMOCRATIC LAWYER OF CHOICE ON ELECTION-LAW ISSUES. HE NO MORE SPEAKS FOR OBAMA ON THIS ISSUE THAN ROBERT BENNETT SPEAKS FOR ANY OF HIS CURRENT OR FORMER CLIENTS WHEN HE MOUTHS OFF AS A PRIVATE CITIZEN.
WHY ARE YOU ALL COMPLETELY UNABLE TO THINK CRITICALLY?
I need a legal eagle to take a look at this…
I believe if Libby is pardoned by Bush then Fitz has the legal capacity to put Cheney on the stand (ex. Clinton/Marc Rich pardon hearings).
If the Libby defense is successful in the accusation that Fitz is “lacking constitutional authority” will that effectively strip Fitz of his future ability to examine Cheney on the witness stand?
Is that why the Libby defense team is using this particular “lacking constitutional authority” argument if Bush pardons Libby to prevent any future repercussion regarding Cheney?
Also from Raw Story, notice that Al Wynn is now co-sponsoring Kucinich’s impeachment piece. Hmmm, Al must not like having Donna Edwards in his rearview mirror.
Obama’s campaign phone number: 1-(866) 675-2008
I just spoke to a live person there a few minute ago.
“President Bush’s new chief of staff accelerated his election-year White House shake-up yesterday as Deputy Chief of Staff Karl Rove surrendered the policy management duties he assumed last year and press secretary Scott McClellan resigned as the public face of an administration under fire.
Rove, who steered Bush to two national election victories, will retain his title but focus on broad strategy and politics, while Joel D. Kaplan takes over as deputy White House chief of staff running the day-to-day policy process.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....00897.html
That was not a light hearted move, it was gaming the system, Rove does not abate power at any chance, it was a way to try and avoid procedure after using that position to cover Bush(all visitors through the deputy Chief) and game the privilege call(Plame, other matters).
SC — Don’t yell. It’s rude.
You know … while I was reading all the comments, it really struck me that the Democrats have blown the perfect opportunity. If they had launched a strong pro-rule of law, out of Iraq campaign as soon as they took the majority - and by strong, I mean stand-up, take no prisoners, repeat continuously that they would not accept a government that abuses the law, steals our rights and devastates Iraq in an illegal war and occupation - we would own this country now. There would be no psychic space for the sort of quibbling, mushy candidacies we’re seeing and statements like Bauer’s would be inconceivable - or would be
immediate grounds for firing.
The “nuanced” style of the majority instead allows all this inside DC gamesplaying … and I really fear that we will have another 8 years of R’s in the WH as a result.
tbsa @ 145
Chris Dodd! At least he listens.
Bauer seems to believe that by pardoning Libby, Bush will take on personal responsibility for Libby’s crimes. But we don’t need a pardon to accomplish that. The right is making this argument for us, but insisting that Libby was the loyal solder left on the battlefield, who was capatured while carrying out the orders of this superiors. The right has implicitly told us the President and VP are responsible, and they have reinforce this by saying the President and VP are betraying the loyal troops who were just following orders.
Let them make this argument; we have no reason to make it for them by letting Libby off. And the more Bush delays the pardon, the more his personal responsibility and cowardice will be condemned by the right and broadcast all over Fox News. Let them scream.
sporkovat @ 168
That is why I brought up conference, dialogue, debate. After you have said “all options are on the table”. You move directly into dialogue about what many of the experts (many who warned against the pre-emptive invasion of Iraq) who are now saying negotiations, and diplomacy are the only way to go with Iran.
A candidate can say these things if they are not owned by the Israeli lobby. Go to A*P*C’s website, they have been obsessed with a pre-emptive attack on Iran for years. At the conference a few years ago both Ariel Sharon and Richard Perle attended this one together ( where a hollywood style set of an Iraninan nuclear facility) was on site at the conference. Both Sharon and Perle basically demanded that the U.s. pre-emptively attack Iran. This inflammatory rhetoric has been tossed about for years by the ‘cakewalk in Iraq” warmongers and often Israeli firsters.
If you are not owned by the lobby (Hillary owned by the lobby), one might take a chance on this issue like Wesley Clark has. Let’s hope Gore can come out on this issue in a diplomatic way. Hey Gore you could set up this conference on Iran.
SC may be right, this could be an idirect way to expand the talk and give more traction.
“Get it out.”
Or as Rumsfeld said, “Everything related, and unrelated.”
Biodun @ 151
I don’t think so. I think it was John Dean and emptywheel who pointed out the consequences of a pardon. Bauer is saying little more than they already said.
Bob in HI
Christy Hardin Smith @ 175
Well, now, isn’t that interesting? Methinks the feedback has been swift and strong.
Gack @ 172
Was he trying to take Obama out?
Siun @184-Whorin’ fer $$. The new game show. Maybe by 2012.
brendancalling @ 152
Yep. That’s me. One other guy from BGrass-L is or was here as well, and even got to top-post a few months ago. I don’t have time right now to look up who that was, as I need to get to work.
Bob in HI
Biodun @ 181
What did they say? Does Obama support a Libby pardon? Yes or no? do not have my phone
I’m re-posting my initial comment with the addition; if indeed the Bush administration pardons Libby doesn’t that open the door to Fitz’s ability to re-examine witnesses such as Cheney on this particular issue?
my,my @ 178
Scarecrow, right on the money. It is much better for the progressives, as Bauer labels them, that Libby is not pardoned, and the immigration bill is stalled because the repubs are tearing themselves apart right now over both issues. Neo-cons galore are assailing Bush, and if he pardons Libby, he will certaintly retreat into his inner sanctum, bunker down and ride out the cricizm. Plus, the press, once watchdogs of these type of shanigans, are complacent because this administration is cowtailing to their wants and desires in regard to the Iraq war and protection of Israel. Pardoning Libby would just be another issue that this administration can lump together with the other atrocities they have conducted over their short reign of terror. LET THEM SCREAM
Christy Hardin Smith @ 175
And I brought that fact up at HuffPost as soon as I saw it. They changed the title too, from “Pardon Libby”.
“Among people close to the White House and in Republican circles around Washington, there remained debate whether the move should be regarded as a demotion or reassignment.”
bg @ 14
Harry Belafonte is a real patriot!
OT: Greg Palast on the Battle to End Vulture Funds
Investigative reporter Greg Palast looks at the battle to end “vulture funds”, where companies buy up debts of poor nations cheaply and then sue them for the full amount.
Bauer was in the Clinton White House and apparently - I’m digging as I type - has connections with Carville. just sayin’
Christy Hardin Smith @ 175
Thanks. Am I naive?
Well, at least that’s a clue that Obama is getting feedback.
Biodun @ 181
Yeah? AND?
Siun @ 200
———————————
doesn,t suprise me at all!!!!!
Agree. Nuance has its places. Pardoning Libby ain’t one of them.
I find it hard to believe that this story is even real. What are these people thinking?
Consulting with war enabler Powell and now considering a Libby pardon…. What the hell is going on with Obama?
Siun @ 183
I find Siun, sadly, right. We are being overwhelmed by nuance. We don’t have time to follow the intrigue. This tremendous economy is not so tremendous for many of us. We’re trying to work more than one job, raise kids and pay the bills. Someone, please, speak clearly to those of us, Republicans and Democrats, who are profoundly disappointed in this government and ashamed at the loss of life we have caused. We need leaders who actually know who WE are.
Siun, you couldn’t be more right.
Siun @ 184
DoIT @ 205
——————————————–
as I said….pandering for low-ifo voters!
that is what is going on.
I see now that this looooooong campaign may be designed to get the Democrats’ consultants and attorneys to embarass the people they advise. First, Mudhen gets all up in the liberal bloggers’ grill, muddying the Edwards campaign’s relationship with a primary constituency. Now this general counsel to Obama tries to justify the idiocy of a pardon.
As if the constant drumbeat about the Clintons’ marriage wasn’t enough.
Siun @ 198
Well, then Obama can step up to the plate and disavow this BS, strongly and clearly.
The DLC is a nest of rats.
Counterpunching to get inside their defenses. He knows Hillary will take the body blows from right wing attacks now.
It’s saving him political capital on one side, he can change his mind with additional discovery too, but he sees it as a way to drive the mantle of accountability higher up the ladder by opening Obstruction review for Fitz. Fitz can act on obstruction outside of an appeal, Christy?
Kathleen @ 194:
My apologies for not saying this earlier.
From the woman who answered the phone:
“Bauer is not the spokeman for the campaign. Obama believes that justice was served in the Scooter Libby case.”
Teddie, you could very well be right.
Of course, the Dems have had plenty of reason to be embarrassed by their political advice up until this point - and they seem shameless all the same.
But a pattern is definitely emerging on the campaing trail.
I smell a Carville rate myself. But that’s just me…
TeddySanFran @ 210
dratty @ 195
And they posted Jane’s column on HuffPo right under Bauer’s. Go Jane !!!!!
Bob Schacht @ 193
Hey bob, I think that was me that got to top-post.
see you on the L!
Siun @ 200
So he may very well be a HRC plant?
This is an anticlimactic ending, is Tony Soprano really dead now?
totally OT:
Thanks, whoever finally spell-checked the John in Cincinnati ad. now i can sleep. /s
The animosity toward my party and those in it trying to force certain Democratic candidates down my throat is slowly percolating.
Adie @ 220
-uh- whom?
Strategerie @ 149
Thanks, Strategerie - I remember giving him the benefit of the doubt on the land thing - but the second article makes that whole group look a little too cozy for complete comfort.
dratty???
Sium @ 183
Most likely true- but they don’t have it in them, they don’t want to change things that much, nothing is a matter of principle, habeas corpus, an illegal and immoral war costing the country hundreds of billions of dollars, nothing to get worked up about.
I’ll try my WWF analogy again - they are the faces the good guys, and the (R)’s are the heels the bad guys, who actually do excel at their roles, but the system of fake, staged fights is all just a ruse to keep the money coming in.
And if people comitted to change, who beleive in a better America, etc, can be held enthralled by the bodyslamming spectacle, with the takedown of Libby by Fitz one of the few genuine victories for our side, then all the better.
my position, largely outside the spectrum of the respectability here, is that a viable 3rd, or rather second party, is needed to at least put a brake on the beloved (D) Party’s continual slide into the corporate/neo-con sphere, which has done so much damage.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 216
That’s not what I’d assume at all - rather Carville is a pal of Libby’s and I think this is a sign that Obama is playing very inside the beltway. All the insiders stick together and that includes all the sorrow over poor Scooter having to go to jail … after all, they are so much better than the riffraff
I think all conspiratorial roads within the Democratic Party lead to the DLC.
Boston1775 @ 155
This is one of the points the young folks that I am discussing this trial with keep mentioning. They have friends who have lost all access to federal funds due to being busted for smoking pot. They keep asking why they have friends who suffer more serious consequences for this than Libby has suffered from obstructing justice in the investigation of the outting of an undercover agent involved in National Security. How can one explain this?
They are all ready well aware that our justice system is simply not just!
DoIT @ 206
The key to fundraising is to continue the status quo that Bush has created. If Obama continues speaking with the same loudpiece that Bush has, and if Obama hints that the war may continue, then the big money will pay him. Otherwise, they lose.
So our trick is not to fall prey to these tactics. I think Obama is really great, and I enjoyed his book and vision, but due to the fact that he is hinting at continuing the status quo, time and time again, I cannot in good faith or morally support him.
Maybe the repuglicans have a point (hypocritically) when they say dimocrats are soft of crime.
Team Obama appears to be relativist when it comes to the constitution that BushCo has using for ass-wipe these past six years. Obama needs to slap Bauer down publicly — Schwarzenegger did it to his “celebrity adviser” Warren Buffet when Buffet gave voice to repealing Prop 13.
Personally, I think Obama is trying to play to that narrow gap between Hillary and Lieberman.
Biodun @ 214
Does he support a pardon?
OT but imho important: Under my .SIG you’ll find a pointer to what I hope will be a productive discussion about what tools FDL has adopted, and might adopt in the near-term, to add discussion-style functions to this highly successful blog.
I hope you’ll join in; you’re more than welcome.
Watch out though: the introduction is overlarge… Sorry ’bout that. You’ll have to scroll down to see it all, beore you get to the comments area. :)
I’ll be re-posting this invitation in later blogposts.
Perhaps it’s all just plain stupidity and incompetence. Either way, I’m fed up.
Biodun @ 214
Would have rather she said “Bauer is no longer associated with the campaign.”
To say that justice was served doesn’t really speak to what comes next (a pardon?).
Sorry if this is a repeat, but there are 231 comments already. Apparently, Obama has stated he doesn’t agree with his counsel on this matter:
http://www.taylormarsh.com/arc.....p?id=25740
(scroll down to the update)
scott @ 160
Well, that tears it. I’m not voting for Ezra for president either.
kathleen @ 227
Parents are frightened as well. Everything, EVERYTHING feels like it is on the line. There is no slack cut for a kid’s mistake - the penalty is in out of sight college costs. To say that American families must bear this but a convicted felon should be pardoned causes a geyser to shoot out of a soccer mom’s head.
spokavat - until both parties are faced with a real revolt by voters who refuse to back “the lesser of …” we won’t see change.
But that’s going to take a really long time - we don’t have a third party option with any juice. So we keep pushing the Ds in hopes we will get incremental improvements.
This is the hand we’re dealt.
Durbin has a new fair election idea.
http://ga3.org/campaign/fair_e.....rce=fe_new
Something positive
SC @ 178
What is funny about this is that the same logic could be used to defend a campaign hiring an out and out racist like David Duke as an advisor. They could say hey, he does his racism on his own time so it really shouldn’t be held against us. How is that for critical thinking?
Talk about your Mayberry Machiavelli’s. Sheesh!
According to Stephanie at Obama’s campaign: “The Senator does not support a pardon for Libby.”
Obama’s campaign: 1-(866) 675-2008
Siun @ 201
Did Mudcat Saunders have the same resume?
[Sorry, if this doesn’t make any sense but I stopped in a public library and they are some people who are incapable of shutting up, and I can’t concentrate very well]
What is the deal with these “advisers” and their spouting off the last couple of days?
The first part is opinion and the second is my theory
Here’s the opinion:
These guys are too smart by a half.
They get the ear of the democratic “leaders” and triangulate themselves out of the mainstream of America by their co-opting of “conservative” issues by trying to appease the 5 percenters who can’t make up their mind on whom to vote for, and by doing that they alienate and piss off their own base. And then the people they piss off go and vote for the Ralph Naders of the world because the “democrat” leadership caves in on everything the republicans want because they don’t want to offend anyone. And what they don’t realize (which the republicans do) is that people have a hunger to vote for something and someone, and they don’t see that from the “democrats,” because the “democrats” are too busy spending $40 million on the people who can’t make up their own mind, and they get no respect from anyone.
Here’s the theory:
I think intelligence and wisdom are two similar but very different things, and in some people, wisdom and intelligence are in inverse proportion to one another. Look at the Nazi’s for example; they had very smart people who did very immoral and not very smart things because they thought and knew that they themselves could make things better because they were working on whatever it was they were working on.
I think Bauer for sure and possibly Obama and Hill are two examples of my theory [not comparing Bauer, Hill and Obama to Nazis but I think they fit into my theory]
I dunno. I agree with Obama on this one. There’s a lot of rage building in the center and left. We’ve got a President who doesn’t give a damn what anyone says or thinks he’s doing it his way and Constitution be damned. We’ve got a Vice Pres who’s as dirty as they come. We’ve had scandal after scandal after scandal. We’ve got a war we can’t win and we can’t leave because the Democrats elected for that purpose don’t have the balls to stand up for what’s right.
I think the Libby pardon is exactly what this nation needs a spark for that powderkeg to create some REAL change rather than just recycling the same asshats over and over again. Then maybe Bush will finally be able to use all that special language he had inserted into the John Warner act.
Hugh @ 240
Thank you, Hugh. People who “advise” should not speak - period.
Obama thinks Scooter Hilton should be held accountable for his actions. Good.
Now Obama should be held accountable for hiring Bauer.
It’s interesting to watch my fellow lefties pounce on this guy over a measly HuffPo comment. It is a Knievellian jump to conclusions that Bauers blog equals a position taken by the Obama camp. This is a rhetorical argument by Bauer and nothing more, productive or not. Anyone who believes Obama, a lawyer, would take this position or even feel it out politically is being overdramatic and should have their head examined. Unfortunatley, there is no shortage of this pomp lately from our netroots. I am embarrassed for all of you kicking up a shitload of dust over this cack. Personally, I am as sick of the drama queens on the left as I am on the right at this point.
Bauer is making a point, not subjugating the law. It is reductio ad absurdum and it is interesting, albeit not very well ruminated. He makes some good points and some bad ones and in the end, it is what it is, a HuffPo opinion piece and, with all due respect to Ms. Huffington, celebrity political fluff. Yawn.
Bauer is naive to believe (if he really does) that pardoning Libby would hurt Bush politically when so many of this administration’s much more serious transgressions have barely registered with the public. No one gives a shit about Scooter Libby and I would doubt even .025% of the public knows anything significant about him or the case. The easy argument is that the president can pardon anyone he wants. That’s that and as much as we would find it repulsive. It is utterly legal and Bush practically has nothing to lose now in doing it.
Hugh @ 240
It could also be used to justify keeping a writer on the staff who has problems with Catholic Church doctrine. Oh wait, it couldn’t:
http://www.taylormarsh.com/arc.....p?id=25153
Guess my critical thinking skills aren’t so good today.
I didn’t take Bauer’s position as being Obama’s. I’m not that stupid. I just wonder whether he’s worth the price of Obama being tarred with that brush whether he deserves it or not.
Why does divide and conquer come to my mind right now?
Siun @ 184
Yes, I agree! And I think the Democrats are now paying a price (the rating of Congress in the polls dropped 10% in the last 3 months).
However, Nancy Pelosi apparently has a different playbook. She has been playing kissy-poo with Georgie ever since last December. Perhaps she’s been too busy “triangulating”?
Bob in HI
Cujo359 @ 249
or it creates a PR opportunity for Obama to speak out and disavow this point of view.
snowbird42 @ 239
He should provide a link to the text of the act, or at least a summary of it.
@248 Screed Alert!
strip it down and put it this way:
will the clique in power be happier with libby free but the president “tainted”,
or the president “untainted” (laughable) and libby doing a “measly” 30 months…
why would we support anything that would make these assholes happy?
Obama has not said that Libby should be pardoned anywhere has he? If he hasn’t, do you think the title should be more directed at Bauer?
Perhaps Obama knew nothing about Bauer’s thoughts on this. If Obama believes there should or should not be a pardon, he should make a firm statement at this point to either agree or distance himself.
kirk murphy @ 51
You said it, not me. THough I was aware of how much this probably pisses off Chicago’s USA, currently investigating some of that Chicago Machine.
Personally, I think what Libby did was treason. If the administration wants to pretend that this is a time of war (absent a declaration of war), then Libby should pay the penalty for treason. He should be shot!
The Constitution will be nothing more than a historical document in a few months. They’re going to stage something else like 9/11, and we’re going to have a de facto king.
Don’t jump on me. I’m just the messenger.
Here we are with just sixteen months or so left until perhaps one of the most important elections in our history. And my party doesn’t even act like it wants to win.
Swopa @ 236
What happened to Ezra?
I’m thinking PCP myself….
So what it really all boils down to is that these people do not think that one of their own should be punished for crimes, whereas, the average schmuck would be thrown in jail for doing something of similar magnitude.
Way to get the support of the people.
Hmm!
http://www.news-tribune.net/st.....12735.html
I didn’t take Bauer’s position as being Obama’s. I’m not that stupid. I just wonder whether he’s worth the price of Obama being tarred with that brush whether he deserves it or not.
I’d be surprised if this wasn’t cleared by the campaign. Prominent officials/consultants in a presidential campaign don’t just throw gratuitous statements out there on highly controversial issues, especially those important to the base. I think this was an oh-too-clever trial balloon — or a very bad sign of poor judgment.
Assuming that’s true (and it may not be), if they didn’t know this would require a slap down from the blogs, they’re naive — and by putting themselves in a position where they had to disavow it in response to the blogs, they make themselves look like amateurs. Dumb move, all around.
Un reports condemns the U.S. for middle east failures. Did that report come from one of the 10 top floors that John Bolton would have gotten rid of?
http://www.rawstory.com/showou.....77,00.html
That is some very bizarre logic on Mr. Bauer’s part.
If we all sent ten dollars to Kucinich and Dodd every time HC, BO, and JE screwed up… Kucinich and Dodd would be the front runners and Siuns fine point would not even need to raised, it would be taken for granted.
Mandrake @ 262
Lesser magnitude, much less magnitude. And every kid knows it.
Margot @ 261
Connected?
SC @ 177
Hugh @ 45
For clarification, the Real World refers to the world inhabited by the vast majority of Americans, including people like Martha Stewart, Leona Helmsley and Ivan Boesky.
What we are seeing with Libby is an aberration. Even most of the Watergate criminals got jail time and they occupied roughly the same rank as Libby. For Libby to get a pardon before serving any time or to have his sentence dramatically reduced would be an anomaly. The only thing that comes close to it is Ollie North and the Iran-Contra gang. In fact, *that* scandal shows what can happen when felons are not punished. They just come back in another administration and wreck havoc again.
All the Broderites who are whining don’t have a leg to stand on in this case. We’ve heard it, now shut up.
Another reality for today’s families: even if they are inclined to military service, no one can sacrifice their children to this cause. Another avenue closed.
DoIT @ 206
Uh!! I think that should read war criminal Powell.
LS @ 257
In fact, his spokespeople have said that he does not support a pardon. See my #235 and Biodun @ 242.
As lina noted a few comments back (#253), this is an opportunity for Obama, and any other candidate, to make clear that they oppose any pardon. In fact, it would be extra nice if they could mention the possible conflict of interest in such a thing.
Sparkles the Iguana @ 263
That parable part of this is based on an old buddhist teaching. The conclusion is not.
scarecrow @ 264
Ergo, someone got played.
dead last @ 228
Problem was, Buffet was probably right(and a progressive to boot), Obama’s GC, not so much.
Please read my earlier comment, if you know of any legal eagle who can review, please do!!!
Sparkles the Iguana @ 263
Bob Schacht @ 252
D: seriously
[modNote: this thing strips out blockquotes sometimes]
OneVote08 on global poverty and disease now on cspan3. This organization was referenced in I think Christy’s earlier post and/or thread.
kdh22 @ 250
DING! You got it!
Here’s another link from TPM — Obama does not agree with his counsel and opposes a pardon for Libby: linky
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 277
I agree with you on Buffet. I thought the Govenator should have allowed the discussion. I’m just saying that Obama’s team could use some discipline.
kdh22 @ 274
It would seem to be the Obama campaign that got played. They are wasting resources replying to something that never should have happened.
vieravisionary @ 281
It seems to be happening on a regular basis lately. There is some kind of a pattern here.
Is there more than one Robert F. Bauer? Is the guy who wrote the HuffPo article the same Bob Bauer who is currently a Libertarian, and was formerly a Republican member of Congress?
Bob in HI
Thanks Jane - what bothers me about this type of activity is that it buys into the right wing talking points. Somehow, the general public needs to understand how this case ties directly into the case for war that we were duped into believing. The constant drumbeat for pardon continues to obscure that point.
snowbird42 @ 151
Conyers really does have some good staffers. this looks terrific! tracks with all the stuff we’ve put together over the past couple of months.
60th Street @ 247
Well, thank goodness this blog has not wasted any of its time following this case. *g* Seriously, if you have been reading this blog with any regularity, your statements become all the more incredible.
scarecrow @ 263
for me, this is the key question i want answered- was it cleared by the campaign?
second question - does bauer have a history of writing opeds, or is he using his position with the obama campaign to get his opinions published? i checked huffingtonpost, and this is only his second post there (the first was june 5, on bob shrum)
…
if bauer is just continuing his practice of writing opeds in his own name and this piece was not seen or cleared by anyone with obama - then i’ll think bauer is a jerk, but imo, it doesn’t reflect on obama.
otoh, if bauer using his position with obama to create a springboard for his opeds - or worse, if the obama campaign ok’ed this one…. then obama should be held at least partially responsible for what was written.
my,my @ 277
Fitz was never going to get the chance to put Cheney on the stand. That has to happen in Congress. (Lost a bit of the commment I see.)
New post upstairs - same topic.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 284
That’s your opinion to which you are entitled. That’s your perogative, but I sincerely hope that henceforth the blogosphere will not be so reactionary. IMO someone or something is trying to use the left’s/progressive’s/whatever’s best weapon (the blogosphere) against itself.
Silly me. I still think that justice is more important than scoring political points. And the idea that Bush would have to answer for a pardon when he hasn’t had to answer for an unprovoked war is just laughable.
FYI, new thread
diogenes @ 11
I’m with you on that. Still leaning towards Edwards but it’s early yet. I can not get excited about Hill or Obama. Isn’t that just awful. We have a woman and a mixed-race candidate. It would be wonderful to be able to get behind one or both of them, but I just can’t at this point.
Just for the record - this Robert Bauer is not the same guy as the Bob Barr who is the former Repub. Congressman and sometime activist supporter of the Bill of Rights.
thanks jane, i am floored by this……
first, not showing up for the no confidence vote and now lead counsel wanting bush to pardon libby for politics, man, i’m at a loss.
i sent two letters to obama.
first one didn’t quite ‘get it’…….and i forgot to provide the link to this post the first time.
thanks alice for providing the link early on…….now, to catch up on threads.
OOPS!!! My bad!
When I wrote that Bob Bauer was a former Republican congressman turned Libertarian, I was thinking of Bob Barr!!
Please excuse the error.
Bob in HI
In the context of it’s Hot in LA, and this morning’s Oversight Hearings P****d ,me off…I have to say…there was a reason I haven’t climbed on the Obama train. He preaches. After 6 - 7 years of BS from the prevailing administration, I cannot go with his Let Me Tell Ya’ll How It Is. And, Of course I will vote vote for her, if she’s the best we can Throw Out There. I think we need some Real Healing!
That’s what I’m thinking, this afternoon. How Dare!!! HE?
demi aka dmoore @ 300
demi aka dmoore @ 300
*sigh* … The Nobel Peace Prize will be handed out on December 10th … Gore might wait until then to announce his candidacy … the earliest he will anounce is November.
We’ll just have to watch these candidates implode until then.
Stay cool, demi !!!
I am so through with Obama.
Not showing up for the Gonzalez vote, this, not being prepared to be President, but just running because of popularity. He got very bad advice to run this time. Even if elected, I think he would be a bad president, which might not be the case if he waited.
Obama is now officially a DLC DINO.
He’s a neolib and Repuke Lite.
First he got a GOOD price on land from mafia guy. Then he has to give mafia guys donation to charity. Now , his spokesperson wants to pardon Libby? Ron Paul is looking better and better.
Huh? Am I the only one who noticed the first line?
He’s General Counsel to Obama? Hmmm, how does what his lawyer said translate to Obama’s opinion? Geez, I thought liberals were smarter than this.
He says explictly that this is his view and not Obama’s view.
Personally, I tend to agree with Obama’s councel. It would keep the issue alive for regular people. Look at the outrage of Paris Hilton getting out after serving only 3 days for driving without a license. The American people want accountability. At this point, Libby’s role has been reduced to old news. He was sent to trial, found guilty. End of story. Sending him away gives the conservatives who want this buried exactly that. He goes away, as does the story. If Bush gives him a pardon, it will bring the story and the feeling of a lack of accountability back.
I’m sorry, but you are wrong with your assertion that Libby would go free if he told Fitzgerald that Cheney was involved. He would still be guilty in the trial in which he was involved. It would not change his fate in the least. To think otherwise is ill informed.
To Liberal Heart, I find it ironic that you think it’s wrong for Bauer to tell us what to think. I don’t think he’s doing that. He’s giving an opinion. The irony is that you feel that way and yet hear we are telling him what to think. We in the liberal bloggesphere are succumbing to the same idiotic group think that has become a trait of the conservative political machine.
Also, as a side note, can we end the age of screen names already? It’s highly difficult to take seriously the anonymous opinions of grown adults using nicknames. Unless I’m talking to a Transformer, I don’t get it. If you are so strong in your convictions, you can stand with them openly instead of hiding behind a protective mask.
One must remember to look at Libby’s obstruction of justice in the context of then current events - namely the 2004 presidential campaign - if Cheney/Bush/Rove’s involvement had been public during 2002-2003, the course of November 2004 could have been a lot different. For this fraud upon our country, Libby deserves to pay.
Whoever said that being a centrist means screwing the pooch? That being reasonable rather than ideological means surrendering? Imagine now that Libby is pardoned. I’ll give you 15 minutes before Drudge or Limbaugh says, “But Obama said it was okay!’
Idiots.
What about just doing what’s right?
Stop with all the politcal strategy games - just do what’s right. Follow the rule of law.
From where I’m standing, I’m seeing a different idiot. You just confirmed his point, which you are clearly missing. Libby will only spend 30 months in jail, and you’ll still be angry, because it’s only Libby and not somebody more important. You’ve proved his assertion that “The case against this government on the larger charge of abuse of power is diminished, made even laughable, by resolving into a 30-month sentence for an obscure figure named Libby.”
The only thing they can hold him for is the charges for which he is committed. Again, you’ve missed the point. When you ask “What kind of idiot thinks this resolves anything…”, you are agreeing with Bauer. He doesn’t feel this is resolved. This is why a pardon would help to keep the legs on the story. It would stir up the masses into wanting/demanding more answers than some political hack going to jail.
Barak Obama will make a great career senator from Illinios.
Check out Obama Opposes Libby Pardon.
Did any of you who are using this to fix the facts around the narrative you’ve created of Obama as a sell-out actually read the article?
And even remotely understand what Bauer is saying?
To Jane Hamsher’s credit, she at least understands the argument, to some degree.
This is not a defense of Libby in any way. Bauer is suggesting that if Bush doesn’t pardon Libby, then Libby will be allowed to simply be the Fall Guy.
And, this is isn’t Obama saying this anyway… It’s Bauer.
Man, this is going to be a long primary season…
Vermonter,
I agree completely. The ignorance of the posters here is quite astounding. The fact that these morons dislike Obama tells me he’s probably a pretty good candidate.
So Jane and her readers have chosen to join the party of Senator McCarthy, complete with witch-hunts and black-lists. Well, here’s the disclaimer you were looking for - not that I expect it will stop you from jumping off the cliff:
http://thehill.com/leading-the.....06-13.html
“Bob was speaking on his own behalf. Senator Obama opposes a pardon and strongly believes that Libby should be held accountable for his actions.”
http://electioncentral.tpmcafe.....bby_pardon
Daniel Romens @ 308
As a side note, my real name is “surfer” and I stand with it openly. What’s your real name?
Hmm.
Lot of new commenters here today.
Why I am thinking about Chicago machine politics?
Is it because of what I read about Obama in Counterpunch today?
Naah - I thought about Obama and the Chicago machine when he couldn’t be bothered to understand VA health care, and then rushed out a health plan to help the insurance megacorps keeep stealing our healt care dollars.
Poor Obama - all that ambition, and too damn dumb to run as a Rethug.
I’m waiting to see how many days before he cuts his losses and fires his GC for cause.
But he’s an empty suit, and that would take a backbone.
Welcome to the Lake, Obama fans.
Read it and weep.
Your megacorps will have to find a new stealth candidate.
Tough.
So many new commenters today - welcome to the Lake!
Now why I am I thinking of corrupt Chicago machine politics?
Oh yes - we were talking about Obama.
Who knew a machine tool could look so good in a $2,000 suit?
hi mods -
my 320 didn’t show, so I re-posted. If OK with you, please delete my second post with the quoted Counterpunc text.
Kicking a tool when it’s already down will only hurt my foot.
Hugh @ 240
What is funny about this is that someone who claims to be able to think critically purports to be unable to distinguish between David Duke and Bob Bauer.
Is Obama required only to accept advice from people who agree with him on everything? Even on issues on which the person does not advise him?
I mean, really. What is all this outrage? The Dems aren’t trying to win? Well, hell, with supporters like the ones posting here, we don’t have a chance in hell. Apparently only people who agree with us on everything need apply.
This thread is one of the most depressing things I’ve ever read.
I’d love to know who Oklahoma kiddo’s “one other individual” is. I count at least 5, maybe 6 people all together who have committed many crimes and told enough lies to fill all the sandbags necessary to forestall all the levee breaks in all the hurricanes to come. After Mr. Bush is out of office and no longer has “pardon power”, the whole pack of criminals should be investigated and charged with the crimes they’ve committed: Mr. Bush, Mr. Cheney, Ms. Rice, Mr. Rove, Mr. Rumsfeld, Mr. Gonzalez. Does anyone want to add anybody else? Vote for Democratic congresspeople, and Democratic Senators! Once there are enough of them, with veto-overiding power, even a Republican President in 2008 won’t be able to stop the investigations of the current batch of wrongdoers and liers. It’s time for Habeus Corpus to be put back, and Patriot Act Two to be abolished, illegal spying on American citizens to be stopped, and all other manner of crimes against the American people and the world (did you know that Germany has a warrant out for Mr. Rumsfeld’s arrest? Why doesn’t the United States have one?). Let’s all read the first several lines of the Declaration of Independence and refresh our memories.
Badwater @ 46
Was Bauer speaking FOR Obama when he made the comment?
spurious @ 185
It is looking like the scrutiny we’re applying is finding flaws. I have little doubt that a bit more scrutiny would find flaws in Gore or Dodd (sorry). I like them all to one extent or another and I’m willing to just keep watching & listening.
Some people are impressed by Obama’s big speeches. Some are impressed by Gore’s recent big speeches too. Of course, there are differences in the content.
Some people are going to like Gore, Edwards and Dodd because they are White Men. Sorry, but it’s simply a fact. Of course, there are differences in content.
Some people are going to prefer someone out of office and free to maneuver and adjust their positions like Gore and Edwards. Some prefer the rigors of having to face a vote, like Obama and Dodd. These environments offer both advantages and disadvantages.
Some people prefer experience such as Gore and Dodd. Some prefer a fresh face like Obama or Edwards. This in my opinion is a very tough choice and I tend to prefer to listen to where they stand now (not always indictative of ability) and go with that. Others will differ.
There’s a lot to look at. I’m still going with a Southern White Man who isn’t terribly DLC and can speak pretty well. For me that’s still Gore and/or Edwards. As V.P. I look for someone I like who hopefully has some experience. That would more than likely be Dodd. I know some have said Feingold, but as much as I like him he’s not running and with our current troubles in the Middle East I have doubts a Jewish name like Feingold will help (sorry).
Other will disagree.
OMG, Obama just lost the nomination.
Vaporized in an instant. It’s not what I wanted, but it proves he is not ready for prime time, by any stretch.
Alice @ 10
Thanks Alice, I just told him what I think of him and his campaign.
Hugh @ 73
Here’s a wingnut thought:
This was done on purpose, to take Obama out of the campaign.
If you for even ONE moment accept that premise, then the REASON for it becomes pretty evident, and ugly as all shit.
Corrputed, from top to bottom. Dems’, Pub’s. Working together, to manipulate the masses . . .
Shilary wins, all around.
And pardon’s everyone in sight come ‘09 inauguration. Even Bush after he invades Iran.
Whacked out? S’heah, but . . since when is the truth any less whacked out anymore? Wagging The Dog is not a movie!!!
Scooter Libby should be shot as a traitor, not jailed as a liar.
His boss, ElDuce should be shot and then hung from a lamp post
dratty @ 82
sporkovat @ 85
Not with me he didn’t get a pass, and neither does Shilary on the same issue.
But we don’t run the country . . . and those that do, decided today that Obama would be dropping out of the race real soon, and Iowa just opened up again for The Shil.
Can Shil beat Thompson Stud? Don’t much matter, they both got the same deal. Pardon Bush, Cheney, Rove and Libby and anyone else upon inaugeration ‘09. That’s the deal for The Presidency.
And its a done one.
I’m not sure even Al Gore could save us at this point, even if he wanted to.
Iran gets done, our bases and Embassy in Iraq get built and fully staffed, the oil law PSA’s are signed and if we survive the flying nukes which a militant Islamic Pakistan will launch during all of this once Mushareef is ousted after we do Iran, it will be a marvel if the planet survives. Course, India might nuke Pakistan off the map, now that I think about it.
Wonder where Russia and China are gonna fall in on all this . . they could EASILY sit it all out and let it play, and gain CONSIDERABLE ground as we slaughter what’s left of a pitiable Republic.
All between now and January 2009.
Oh my!
Ben venista said essentially the same thing on Matthews’ Hardball tonight. I was thinking, “WTF?” Is this a Dem talking point that is taking hold?
How do you get your candidate into the news?
How do you get your candidate into the new?
Arca @ 117
Close, take that one level higher to who holds power and sway over BOTH parties.
Richardson’s has a proposal that the House should de-autorize the war funds before recess. Is their a reason not to discuss that? Are we telling Richardson that that’s great? I am.
I think it’s a great idea. I used to think he was not so great because I had read where he bungled a certain incident during his diplomatic days. Really, really think a candidate with command of the issues and a heart is great. How about a drift to Richardson, so the rest of them might shape up! I still hope Richardson wins. Al can be his VP.
Hmm. My wordy rant got lost. Long-short (or long shot): why not Gov. Richardson, and get Hil or Al for VP?
JC it is there.. was caught in the filter and if you refresh, you will see it.
snowbird42 @ 151
I’m so happily stunned I don’t know what to think!! KILLER INFO!! CONYERS RAWHKS!!!!
Dang, Hope? Maybe? Please . . . ?? *G*
Thanks for sharing that Snowbird, way way kewl and empowering, ’specially after Lurita’s Languid Leisures under the OTHER system of justice in this nation today.
brendancalling @ 153
Who’s talkin bluegrass in here???? *G*
‘Bet My Dobro Is Louder N Yer Hubcap!’
You guys play?
Bustednuckles @ 164
Apron? Stockings? High Heels?*******!!!!
(MOD NOTE: Prison rape jokes are not permitted at the Lake - only that part was modified)
Mr.Murder @ 166
Attribution. Now.
Hell, I can hardly read what your typing half the time . . quite frustrating when one is pressing points from a position of ‘KNOWING’ and don’t use complete sentences to structure the thoughts.
Quite frustrating.
Mr.Murder @ 182
Ok, that will work, my bad I guess . . . .
Call me slow, but . . .
kirk murphy @ 320
KIRK MURPHY IS RIGHT! *G*
Thanks for bringing this back to the basics . . he’s a Shilary.
And, as I said, THOSE WHO DECIDE, decided it’s time for him to get out of the game, the deal was already rigged with Shilary . . . and she will do all the pardoning to ‘heal the nation’ sometime after Jan 20, 2009.
Vermonter @ 315
It’s not about WHO said it, it’s been said, and Obama is STUCK with it.
He’s history as a result. Got a quarter? *G*
hedgerama @ 324
Uh, Hedge . . . the dem’s don’t really want any of them things you listed as important (and they ARE) in case you been out of the country for a while.
The Dem’s are the Pub’s. Don’t let the logo fool ya.
Real democrats, and real republicans want accountability for everyone involved.
But those like the DLC crooks, and crooked GOP leaders run by AIPAC and foreign money try to stifle their cries.
Well, let them stifle it no longer. This is about judicial DUE PROCESS. You want JUDICIAL DUE PROCESS for everyone involved!!!
IE: NO Obama, NO Clinton, none of them are ready for prime time!!
ELECT AL GORE OR RON PAUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Spread the word of the truth, the truth will set you free and uphold the wishes of Judicial DUE PROCESS. DUE PROCESS includes, let Justice take its course. Do not let anyone pardon, make arguments for or against pardons, and just let the Justice process take its course as the Prosecutors and Judges will ensure justice is served.
Including in the Wilson’s Civil Case. So again, what you must do is elect real leaders and call on real people in Congress like the Senator Leahys and Senator Warner’s to uphold the law and clean up this mess. We want more indictments, more resignations, Cheney impeached and an outcome that is fair for all.
Justice is demanded. Now that there is a majority and the coporate interests are outnumbered, we must ensure Justice is SERVED and REMOVE this kind of nonsense from coming back.
kathleen @ 228
They are all ready well aware that our justice system is simply not just!
It’s even more insane than this. The Solomon Amendment can strip a kid of all public financial support if he doesn’t register for the NON-EXISTANT Draft…a draft which no politician running for President will assert that they will re-institute during their term of office.
The Libby question comes down to whether everything reduces to power plays, including the law. The Administration’s treatment of DOJ implies this is their view. Obama now sides with the power view, using the law as a power lever (theoretically). This agrees with Bush: the Constitution is just a piece of paper. There is nothing more fundamental than this argument.