Robert F. Bauer's "pardon Libby" post now carries a disclaimer to the effect that he speaks only for himself, and Barak Obama's campaign responds:
Bob was speaking on his own behalf. Senator Obama opposes a pardon and strongly believes that Libby should be held accountable for his actions.
So are we to accept that the General Counsel for the Obama campaign stepped out on his own in such a high profile way with such a hot button issue and the candidate had no knowledge of it? I seriously doubt John Edwards knew Mudcat was going to run his mouth like that in Swampland, but I have to say that this I find hard to accept.
Obama is on record saying this:
Wright: Another person who enjoys extraordinary privilege in our justice system, Scooter Libby, should he go to jail?Obama: I think that based on the evidence and conviction that he deserves jail time, yes.Wright: Full sentence?
Obama: Well, I have not followed the case closely enough to want to render a judgment on what would be typical in these types of sentences but what I can say is, he obviously betrayed the basic principle that you tell the truth to investigators to federal investigators. He did not do that and I think that’s a problem.
Wright: And if the President were to pardon him would that be a travesty of justice?
Obama: I think that people expect that if someone breaks the law that they are treated like other people who break the laws regardless of the connections or contacts they have.
It's pretty thin gruel. Yes it would be a travesty of justice, because the President would be stiffling an investigation into the criminal activities of his own administration. That's not what a presidential pardon is supposed to be used for.
I think there are two things to consider here. One Christy brings up:
It also raises some interesting questions in terms of what he expects if Obama wins the campaign. Last I checked, people who work on campaigns generally hope to gain a position in a subsequent administration if their candidate wins in a whole lot of cases. If Mr. Bauer thinks that the rule of law is malleable in terms of politically expedient questions of the moment, then we ought to be asking the questions now rather than in a confirmation hearing later, don't you think?
And another, from commenter Redshift:
Even if he's not someone who advises on policy or is supposed to represent the campaign to the public, it's not just a high-level position, he's their legal advisor, right? If Obama's legal advisor is saying publicly that the law should be subordinate to political gain, he'd better fire his ass. We've had more than enough of that for the past six years.
I like and respect Senator Obama and think he's done some very smart things, but the role of General Counsel is not an inconsequential one. As Rick Perlstein notes, Richard Nixon had one in 1973 and his name was G. Gordon Liddy.
We probably are looking at the very real possibility of a pardon (especially since Judge Walton will be deciding tomorrow whether Libby stays out on bail pending appeal). I don't think this is the appropriate time or issue to be triangulating.
Digby also weighs in, and doesn't think Obama ought to be listening much to anyone making such a sophomoric argument in the first place. And Jeffrey Feldman has a theory of his own.
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Jane!
This month I’ll be putting signs on freeways in major cities from San Diego to Seattle. Here’s LA:
http://freewayblogger.blogspot.....geles.html
Eventually things may get so bad that some of you will join me.
I’ll go down and tell the others that the new post is up
madness, madness, madness
Better come out a little stronger than that Obama.
Strike two!
Obama says: “Well, I have not followed the case closely enough to want to render a judgment….”
Why not???
How’d ya know I went for cookies and the mail. Hi Jane.
Silly me. I still think that justice is more important than scoring political points. And the idea that Bush would have to answer for a pardon when he hasn’t had to answer for an unprovoked war is just laughable.
Has it ever occurred to the Democrats that one of the major reasons they have trouble winning elections is that many of their top advisers are morons?
Obama impressed me at the convention (I’m a sucker for good oratory) but my view has dimmed continuously since then.
I’m from the OK Kiddo wing of the democratic party - these folks better start standing for something. I think people will respect a candidate who takes a solid position, even if they disagree, more than some transparent panderer (yes you HRC.)
At the moment it’s Edwards unless Gore steps in.
Obama is getting seriously punked. A general counsel on a Presidential campaign doesn’t have any other clients now, does he? So why is he putting out personal opinions on such things? Is he not aware that it’s gonna come back to Obama? He’d be stupid not to. More stuff like this will only give fuel to Edwards and Clinton and perhaps Richardson and Dodd.
Blue Dido @ 7
Obama is running the risk of appearing weak on… well… substance.
following up on scarecrow’s comment below.
i want to know - was bauer’s oped cleared by the campaign?
second question - does bauer have a history of writing opeds, or is he using his position with the obama campaign to get his opinions published?
i checked huffingtonpost, and this is only his second post there (the first was june 5, on bob shrum)
…
if bauer is just continuing his long practice of writing opeds in his own name and this piece was not seen or cleared by anyone with obama - then i’ll think bauer is a jerk, but imo, it doesn’t reflect on obama.
otherwise… senator obama has some ’splaining to do.
Can’t trust Obama. Experience is lacking. GORE/DEAN 08′
It is not just his campaign counsel, Obama has been talking to Colin Powell. Speaking only for myself, I will never trust Obama to uphold the law or national security.
Have you noticed the silence of all our Presidential wannabees along with Reid and Pelosi? Would it kill them to say a pardon would be wrong?
How can any of them ask CIA case officers to risk their lives?????????????
Candidates are responsible for their campaigns. If someone steps out of line or says or does something stupid or unethical, it very well may not have been at the candidate’s urging but it is still the candidate’s responsibility to deal with. And based on how often this happens and how it is dealt with, it can raise questions about their judgment.
Ladies of the lake, kickin’ ass and takin’ names. Ain’t gonna be no job for you in the next administraion Mr. Bauer. Hi Jane! Wish I could make it to DC tomorrow. Then again, I feel a cough coming on.
Blue Dido @ 7
huh? trial of the century? treason? betraying a CIA agent’s identity? is he for real?
selise @ 14
But isn’t it weird? I mean letting your GC write something like this? Don’t you think Alexrod and crew should have read it first? In case Bauer acted like an idiot(as in this case)?
The reason Scooter Libby will be pardoned is very simple. The campaign against him has very little to do with the law; the offenses charged had nothing to do with Plame. The very fact that FDL and moveon.org and Dailykos hate the man so much proves that this was a political trial. Fitzgerald and many posters here have criminalized a political disagreement. For that reason alone, the ultimate political act of grace, a pardon, is warranted.
Cenk Uygur speaks for me:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo.....151936/423
Hugh @ 18
Exactly!!
scarlet p. @ 2
Ooh, I like that one!
Jane, Christy and all the great folks at FDL,
Many thanks for running the best damn blog on the internet. FDL’s live blogging of the Libby trial changed journalism. (Journalism doesn’t know it yet.)
As to Obama’s man suggesting a Libby pardon without Obama’s approval, I say Horsefeathers! This is typical of ‘Money Democrats’, so eager to help rich people and corporations.
Obama is Hillary Lite.
FYI - some folks last thread were confusing Robert Bauer with Bob Barr … definitely not the same at all.
Background on Bauer here
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 21
yes. yes. yes. yes.
epu’d
thanks jane, i am floored by this……
first, not showing up for the no confidence vote and now lead counsel wanting bush to pardon libby for politics, man, i’m at a loss.
i sent two letters to obama.
first one didn’t quite ‘get it’…….and i forgot to provide the link to this post the first time.
thanks alice for providing the link early on…….now, to catch up on threads.
added-i also mentioned in the letter that it reflects on him with whom he surrounds himself. well, worded better than that.
As Jane keeps turning up the heat, I think Obama will have to do something even if he doesn’t want to.
This isn’t going to die a quiet death like it will in the MSM.
I wonder when these politicians are going to figure out we aren’t going to go away?
Or, even more mystifying, why can’t they feel the heat from our white hot anger?
I know, I know, there’s that angry liberal thing again.
After following this bunch of criminals escapades, I AM pissed off that I don’t see more people in Scooters shoes, hoping for a pardon AFTER they have been convicted.
Hey TiredFed,
what time is the hearing tomorrow?
how much lead time do we need? thx
I still confess that I’m still in the “You’ve GOT to be fucking kidding me” stage on this. And I don’t think the general public will buy it. Why? Because Scooter had the misfortune of being in the news at the same time as Paris Hilton. A Scooter pardon will lead inevitably to questions about whether or not Bush should pardon Paris Hilton, because the media doesn’t seem to be able to talk about anyone else. The vast majority of people think that the whole idea of pardoning Paris Hilton is simply absurd, because, well, because it IS absurd. And even the dimmest people will be able to make the logical leap that if Bush shouldn’t have pardoned Paris Hilton, he shouldn’t have pardoned Scooter Libby, either.
Sorry, Scooter, but if you’re going to take a bullet for the Shooter, you’re actually going to have to take the bullet.
What is Robert Bauer’s background and why would he state this pardon Libby BS casting a shadow on Obama’s campaign?…
I don’t understand why Bauer would state such a thing without Obama’s okay to release to the media…
Oh, and:
Informational Addendum: Under Article I, Section 8, Clause 11 of the United States Constitution, CONGRESS and ONLY Congress HAS THE POWER to declare and END war. [Tellingly, in our nation’s history, Congress has never had to FORCE a President to end a declared war (of which there have been five), as far as I know - but of course, then there was Nixon and Vietnam.] Unless someone is prepared to argue that what we are doing in Iraq is not “war,” a majority vote (NO PRESIDENTIAL SIGNATURE OR VETO INVOLVED) in Congress can end our occupation of Iraq at any time Congress chooses. [Credit belongs to Governor Richardson for this proposal.]
This is the vital POWER of We, the People which Congress has trampled on, and ceded to the Executive Branch when convenient, since at least World War II. It’s time to take it back, and call King Cheney’s bluff (in court if necessary; it’s about time we found out whether this is a democracy or a kingdom for once and for all).
If there’s a will, there’s a way.
Seems like a rather bold thing for the General Counsel to do on such a hot button issue..indeed!
posaune @ 30
Is it 10:30?
posaune @ 30:
Motion hearing starts at 11:30 a.m.
Sentencing is at 1:30 p.m.
Courtroom 16
Well, I have not followed the case closely enough to want to render a judgment on what would be typical in these types of sentences but what I can say is, he obviously betrayed the basic principle that you tell the truth to investigators to federal investigators. He did not do that and I think that’s a problem.
Sorry, Mr. O - I was already seriously looking for some one else, but you just nailed that coffin. Not only do I NOT need to be preached to, and would like something else, but this was probably your WHOOPS point. Not only for me, but I suspect a lot of others who, regardless of others not imagining that citizens could possibly Pay Attention what All Y’all are blah, blah blahing about.
Sorry, Sir. This isn’t about your race, or what schools you’ve attended.
kathleen @ 34
The beltway crowd doesn’t seem to think it’s a hot button issue so . . .
This does not bode well for Barack. WTF. Why is this attorney placing his views in front of those, or in competition with, his client’s? Hillary’s got to be loving this amateurish misstep.
Bustednuckles @ 29
Jane will be seeing Obama at the “Take back America” fest
posaune @ 30
I have heard there are preliminary arguments at 11:30 and the final sentencing hearing is at 1:30. Don’t forget there is a Business Meeting at SJC at 10, too. Subpoenas anyone?
just called senator obama’s campaign, to ask my question:
was bauer’s oped cleared, or in any way reviewed, by the campaign prior to it’s publication?
the very nice person who answered the phone said that he did not know (and he checked with his co-workers who are also answering the phone - apparently they’re getting a few phone calls *g*).
if no one in obama’s campaign reviewed the oped prior to it’s publication - then the campaign should say so (and it’s stupid not to).
but i’m not confident it didn’t happen.
pow wow @ 33
I used to wonder if the Repugs will run interference, now I wonder how much interference the Dems will run.
Yes Harry Reid, I’m talking to you … will you read The Cat in the Hat or Green Eggs ‘n’ Ham?
pow wow @ 36
Thanks.
Fitz “truth is the engine of our justice system” Hopefully the engine still has some steam in it. Let’s hope Walton stands by his core principles. He does seem to have them!
kathleen @ 40
Would like to hear their conversation.
Jane will get the job done with Obama and he will have a whole new outlook on life.
selise @ 42
let Bauer go!
Am I the only one wondering if the Obama camp mightn’t be sending a message to the mandarins that if he’s elected, he’ll be the kind of guy they can work with?
The only reasonable position is to reference and affirm the DOJ process for pardons:
1. contrition,
2. restitution and prison finished
3. 5 years out of jail…
my,my @ 32
I think this is an area that frankly, the Republicans have a stronger advantage - discipline - than Democrats. That is why you see the actions in the oversight hearings on the Hill. The Democrats do not seem to have the will to develop and implement a sound and meaningful strategy to get their message across.
Unless this changes, I predict that we will be right back where we were in 2000 with the Republicans in the majority on the Hill and in the WH.
No organizational planning seems to be the Democrats’ status quo. Not good in my book!
p.s. senator obama’s campaign phone number is: 1-(866) 675-2008
thank you biodun.
Thank you FDLers for your commitment to truth and justice. It is oh so inspirational!
Julia @ 47
no.
Twain @ 45
I’d like to see Jane, EW and LHP have a “word” with Obama … I’d pay for PPV to see that !!!
kathleen @ 51
Folks like you are leading the way, Kathleen … keep up the great work !!!
Tired Fed:
Appreciate you’re answering my question regarding Fitz in the earlier thread…
Have another question…
If Libby’s defense team is successful in questioning Fitz’s “lacking constitutional authority” in prosecuting Libby would that in effect bar Congress’ future ability to have hearings with Cheney as a witness if Bush pardons Libby?
Twain @ 45
damn.I knew I should have accepted that invite! would love to be a fly on the wall at that little meeting.
Julia @ 47
That is a possibility, as is the notion that Obama’s campaign is being subverted by a traitor.
As I sit munching on the remaining cookies, Lorna Doone, didn’t eat, it comes to mind that on a variety of issues, Obama has sort of side-stepped, or left the door cracked open, for example use of force in Iran or, until today, the Libby pardon. He is positioning himself for a possible event in the future where he might be faced with those same decisions.
LS @ 58
DING!
Julia @ 47
Obama certainly knows how to take messages from the mandarins.
The prime example is the way Obama went running away from Lamont after Bill Clinton went on Larry King Live and called Lieberman’s independent candidacy “an unmitigated blessing”.
Before I gave up on my local senator, that is exactly the sort of thing I got from calling his staffers and asking for a response to, say, Feingolds early condemnations of the war, or the loathsome Military Commisions Act.
That means that his Triangulator machine has not produced the calibrated response yet, and no issue, no matter how apalling or obvious on its face, will get a response until all the calculations are done.
A Chicago activist, Glen Ford, who has followed Obama since the early, early days has an excoriating article on Counterpunch today:
www.Counterpunch.org
selise @ 50
If Obama doesn’t fire Bauer like yesterday, he’s toast.
kdh22 @ 59
It’s called foresight.
Jane:
So what about the other Bauer article on Huffington Post, posted June 5, that does NOT carry a disclaimer that it is Bauer’s own words?
Headline says it all: “What We Can Learn From Bob Shrum”
This is not “Mudcat being Mudcat.” This is Mudcat with the power to hire Shrum for the campaign.
Maybe that has already happened.
a couple of guesses:
1. The announcement that Cheney needs a new pacemaker has paved the way for him to resign for health reasons;
2. He’ll resign for health reasons because a) he’ll have secured Libby’s pardon in exchange for leaving; b)that’ll create an “incumbent” to run for president who will have had to agree to get Cheney off any future hook in exchange for the appointment.
Julia @ 47
Doesn’t seem to me that it would need to be such an overt thing as this. He can send that message in ways that are much less messy.
my,my @ 55
oh my no. whether Fitz is an inferior office has nothing to do with the awesome power of impeachment. Fitz has always known he couldn’t get past Cheney’s greymail schemes. He established a clear and clean line of authority from Bush/Cheney to Libby in the trial. Libby got convicted. The next step is up to Congress. IANAL but that’s the way I’ve heard it explained here. and if Bush pardons Libby, he not only exposes Libby to unfettered questioning by Congress (he couldn’t plead the 5th), but exposes himself to possible charges of obstruction of justice (impeachable offense for Nixon).
sorry; h/t to selise@14
Actually, I am leaning towards Richardson as prez candidate in the primary. There are certainly some things I disagree with, but he doesn’t seem to pussyfoot around, like Obama and Clinton do.
That is until this evening when I change my mind - again.
Bustednuckles @ 29
I think it’s an angry hardworking citizen thing.
I can’t understand why my new congressman doesn’t think voting to end the war is a good idea. I got a 2 page letter from his poor staffer. I want votes, not words.
Hey Senator
Chicago machineObamaOver the last two weeks, Federal Judge Aiken in Eugene, OR was handing out higher sentences for eco-activists convicted of arson and conspiracy based on terrorism “enhancements” - the defendants were treated differently from others precisely because of who they knew.
Will the burning desire for justice you show towards the convicted felon Scooter Libby move you to question the terrorism enhancements Judge Aiken handed out?
The “enhancements” are under appeal, Senator - your voice could make a big difference.
When will you be submitting your amicus brief on behalf of the convicted eco-activists given terrorism enhancements?
Or does your concern for justice and process only extend to the rich powerful friends of the Libertarian you chose for your campaign’s general counsel?
“Yes it would be a travesty of justice, because the President would be stiffling an investigation into the criminal activities of his own administration. That’s not what a presidential pardon is supposed to be used for.”
Hadn’t had the chance to read the comments above, but bravo Jane! This statement is both elegant and eloquent. It cuts through all the BS that the Repubs have been tossing. Why can’t some elected Dems be as succinct and as on target as you are?
I’ll tell you what I don’t like about the earlier Obama statement: how he says he “hasn’t followed the case closely enough to be able to render a judgment on what be typical in these types of sentences.”
You know what, Barack? It’s obvious that you’ve got a lot going on, but you’re a smart guy and a lawyer and the Libby case is kind of a big deal. So it would actually take somebody like you a lot less time than the rest of us to develop an informed opinion on what’s appropriate here and the significant issues presented by the case. For somebody who is very proud about being on the correct side of the war vote from the beginning, a little effort here would give you an opportunity to really help your cause. The trial and its results and the sentencing are the advanced political/legal phase of the war you voted against. So now you’re not paying attention? Huh? Libby worked for Cheney, Fitzgerald chose to prosecute him, and he was convicted. Get in front of this, get it right–it will be worth your time.
Oops, too late.
Other Pat @ 66
Interesting. I read on Raw Story (but it is gone now) that either Liz or Lynne Cheney is going to work for the Thompson campaign. Stick him in as VP, et voila, incumbent advantage.
This fits in with Obama’s history of playing it safe. It’s looking like a serious character flaw, at least politically. Figuring out how to navigate yourself to prominence with good speeches and little else doesn’t make you a leader, it makes you a scummy salesman. I don’t want a person like that to be president.
zhiv @ 74
But he’s sooooo articulate.
Petrocelli @ 57
I wouldn’t put it past any candidate, save Dennis Kucinich.
Other Pat @ 66
And just who is the future “incumbent” that can be confirmed by both the House and Senate to replace Cheney?
TiredFed:
Thanks so much for the clarification…
So even if the Libby defense team goes after Fitz’s “lacking constitutional authority” angle and is successful…
Congress still can go after Cheney if Bush pardons Libby regardless of the above scenario…
by the way—
You’re too cool too—thanks!
puppethead @ 76
You mean “another person like that”?
demi aka dmoore @ 62
Sorry, somehow my comments were missing.
Shorter. Sorry Mr. O. You lost me on this one.
I’ll vote for whichever Dem Nominee we get stuck with, but, this just re-enforces my lack of choosing you at this point.
I just have an innate YUCK factor kneejerk reaction to folks who need to preach to me, And, then say what he just said. WRONG! There are a lot of people paying attention here, even if most people don’t.
LS @ 58
Question to Obama … Got Milked ?
dakine01 @ 79
See me at aisle 75, Fred Thompson.
Other Pat @ 66
you mean their Thompson?
Mandrake @ 78
Me neither, Mandrake. It a very ugly, vicious, disgusting game this politics. And I don’t see it being anything other than that….ever!
my,my @ 80
haha. that’s not what my kids say!
dakine01 @ 79
Joe Lieberman-The Great Uniter!!!!
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!!!
I’m afraid I don’t understand Jane’s point about Obama’s GC versus Edwards’ campaign advisor. The only difference I see is that Bauer is a lawyer and, presumably, ought to know better than to support a pardon. Well, actually, even that’s not true. Saunders should have known better than to piss off his base. What’s the difference? That’s not a rhetorical question, and just in case someone’s wondering Obama isn’t even one of my five favorite candidates.
I think Christy’s quote is correct, though. If this guy became White House Counsel or AG that could be problematical.
Elliott @ 85
Thompson the Headless Gunner.
selise @ 14
Bauer has a blog on something called the Democracy Project.
Bob in HI
LS @ 75
If this would be such an advantage why are GOP candidates trying to distance themselves from Bush?
I’d think it would be the kiss of death to someones campaign hopes not an advantage, so I’m missing something here.
LS @ 75
This whole thing is challenging my morals and ethics. Member when Dorothy’s Aunt said, …But as a Christian Woman, I just can’t say it”? Big breath. Maybe a nap will help.
raven @ 81
OT but imho important: Under my .SIG you’ll find a pointer to what I hope will be a productive discussion about what tools FDL has adopted, and might adopt in the near-term, to add discussion-style functions to this highly successful blog.
I hope you’ll join in; you’re more than welcome.
Watch out though: the introduction is overlarge… Sorry ’bout that. You’ll have to scroll down to see it all, beore you get to the comments area. :)
I’ll be re-posting this invitation in later blogposts.
Brisingamen @ 92
The only thing that you are missing is Jeb/08.
I have unsubscribed from Obama’s campaign e-mail.
I will not support him or his candidacy until I hear a direct repudiation of Bauer’s views, and an acknowledgment of the serious crimes which were committed against Plame and Wilson. It is not “mere glibness” to expect that the conviction be upheld.
demi aka dmoore @ 93
They only know how to fight way, way, way below the belt, and they have no qualms about it.
dakine01 @ 79
Good question. Possibly, as LS@75 said, Thompson could be the man. Goodness knows, the White House would control the spin w/ the mantra of “time being of the essence” — can’t have this “drug out” like the congressional hearings.
So many times in the last couple of years I’ve thought there’s no way the administration can get out of this one; yet, the Teflon left behind by Reagan has clearly re-surfaced.
One can only hope that justice will prevail — quickly and thoroughly.
puppethead @ 94
Actually I was thinking of Slick Willie but I don’t think there is much of a difference in any of these clowns in either party.
LS @ 98
Siun @ 26
Yeah, that would be me. I ate some humble pie downstairs, but it may have wound up in EPU-land. My bad!
Well, what’s an “r” instead of a “ue” among friends? (he pleaded, hopefully)
Bob in HI
Badwater @96:
Do you really think that Congress would confirm Jeb (or Thompson for that matter)? Considering the Idiot-in-Chief’s approval rating why would anyone want more of the same?
zhiv @ 74
Sorry OT … Zhiv, how did your son’s Bar Mitzvah go? I read what you were going to say during that ceremony and tears came to my eyes. They sounded like something my father would have said … like something every father should say … and something every child should hear.
Libby isn’t important, this is a loser for the left. Scooter is low hanging fruit. A Fall guy.
You SHOULD be blaming Fitzgerald for lacking the courage to go after Cheney or at least Rove *he let Turd-blossom rehabilitate his testimony how many times? Instead, Fitzgerald gets worshiped by the left and now we’re even pouncing on Obama because one of his STAFF dared speak for Scooter?
Get a grip and stop missing the forest for the trees.
Petrocelli @ 104
Brisingamen @ 103,
Actually, I think that they would confirm Jeb or almost anyone to get rid of Cheney.
Bob in HI - I just have a bit of a thing about Bob Barr. While he’s been actually quite interesting recently (introducing Gore at his MLK day speech last year, etc) he was vicious on the issue of pagans in the military a while back and I can’t quite forgive him that.
I guess if Obama becomes POTUS, he’ll make sure all Bushs presidential records remain hidden from public view and suggest we “move on in an effort to heal” or some horseshit.
No way I vote for this guy. He has done nothing to really shake things up in D.C. and show no signs of doing anything but backing down from the treasonous Bush Admin. If he thinks for one minute that Cheney and Co. will not do the same thing again if not stopped, he needs to ask Lieberman to be his VP.
Man, this pisses me off!
Just called Obama’s campaign. They seem to realize that they’ve blown it here, but they don’t seem to have figured out what to do. I told them I understand that this man wasn’t speaking on behalf of the campaign, but I told them that I was still surprised that they would associate themselves with someone with this viewpoint.
Sigh.
Is there any chance that Richardson’s campaign can be saved?
Johnny Spectator @ 106
You are missing it. Fitzgerald doesn’t go to court unless he knows he has a rock solid case. It is obvious he doesn’t think it is rock solid against Lord Vader. Remember, you have to convince a jury of 12. Would be be able to get a guilty verdict on a VP? That’s an awfully big gamble.
So, what’s up with the comments not working? I don’t think it’s just me…. Sorry to complain, but when I quote someone and then add my comment, it doesn’t show. Am I missing something, and indeed go take my nap, or have I missed something?
A little OT, but now that we over 100, has everyone seen John Conyers diary over at Kos on the U.S. Attorney scandals? Conyers Kos Diary Looks to me like Conyers has a pretty good staff working for him and they know where they are headed: straight to Rove.
The President shouldn’t be able to pardon people in government period. It’s a silly power based on the 18th century notion of powers of a sovereign.
mark @ 109
Yikes!! Now, that makes me nervous.
demi aka dmoore @ 113
Does it look okay when you preview?
Frank Probst @ 111
What number did you call?
I’m hesitant to quote a previous comment…
but FRANK…I tried to call a bit earlier and got the VM…I think he’s getting a lot of response. This is good in that a lot of people are Paying Attention. Good Citizens. Everybody have a cookie. :)
demi, I have had the same issue…
Hold it a second, Jane. You’ll give Edwards and Mudcat a pass…but you’re ready to hang Obama? Shame on you.
As a progressive, I’m more than a little disappointed in this thread.
Johnny Spectator @ 114
Yeah!!
I just through Chris Dodd a few bucks, since it seems he’s the only one who has some control over his people: Obama, Edwards people are making fools of them.
Other Pat @ 99
and the right loves them some Thompson. They’ve found their New Reagan, apparently they don’t care how close Thompson is to BushCo. I find it deeply disturbing that the right is drooling over eight more years of BushCo.
Obama is just another right-wing theocrat. It’s time to recognize that and move on.
raven @ 68
Well, maybe, but perhaps not in a way that would be so congenial to the journalists he’s going to need.
itwasntme @ 122
Are “they” really making fools of themselves, or are they being made fools of? There is a pattern here. This campaign is going to be really dirty.
New poll numbers out on Iraq- Bloomberg
Should we get out now? 25%
Should we get out in a year? 43%
Should we stay as long as necessary? 26%
I want a Constitutional Amendment that limits Presidential pardons. I want them to be barred for ANYONE that the President has had a personal/professional relationship with. No pardons for their friends, donors, or Administration personnel. All pardons restricted to people for which there is NO connection whatsoever with the sitting President. That, naturally, extends to VPs who go on to be Prez in the next cycle.
Such a nice and reasonable and fair limit would have prevented Ford from pardoning Nixon. It would prevent the pardon abuse of almost all modern Presidents who give their buddies/donors a free pass on their convictions.
No more.
We need an amendment putting limits on Presidential pardons.
Oh, Petro, you want me to be a good girl and preview? You’re right. And I haven’t been previewing, so I can’t answer…But, others have had the same problem…doesn’t mean we’re not all ooopsing. I’ll try what you said. Just to let you know
Fish @ 120
Please don’t take the bait, Jane.
LS @ 126
I worked in Dem politics for 30 years and it was dirty then but nothing like now. I quit when I just couldn’t take the BS any more. I believe that we will reach a new low in this campaign and none of us will be better for it.
This is why I hate the fact the “Presidential Race” has started so early. I do not see much getting done in Congress and we will just be on a constant “spin cycle” until November 2008. It is not good for the country and solving the problems we have in front of us.
kdh22 @ 130
Ditto.
demi aka dmoore @ 112
Hi
are your comments showing up in Preview?
I keep accidentally typing in the middle of the comment I’m quoting, so I’m training myself to hit the return key first (Enter) before I start typing.
vieravisionary @ 133
This is a response, and a test.
My 13 year old son says the race is starting so earlier because people just can’t wait to get Bush out of office.
(checking preview now)
vieravisionary @ 132
this is what I was going to say. What do you expect with this length of a campaign. Can you imagine what comes next.
I still believe that this may be why Gore is staying out.
He’s going to be pardoned, that was always the plan. He probably should be pardoned because this was a farce of an investigation.
It’s illegal just to give out classified information. All this smoke and mirrors about some obscure Foreign Intelligence Secrecy Act (or whatever it’s called) is poppycock. It never mattered if it applied. It’s like they were caught speeding but Fitzgerald claims he couldn’t make the case for reckless driving so no speeding ticket.
Fitz is no hero. Libby is minor. He won’t go to jail. Stop infighting because an associate of Obama said something disagreeable.
You’re like Rush listeners now, playing Karnak. Don’t trust what Obama says! No never, not even when you agree with him? It’s wrong on so many levels to level this against Obama. What if, OMG, Obama is friends with a conservative????!!!! NO! That must mean he’s a conservative. I guess we should hate Clinton for Dick Morris huh?
kdh22 @ 131
KDH,
Jane’s views on Mudcat are widely known. She doesn’t care for him at all.
What is the goal of the Rovians?
Destroy the Democratic Party once and for all. We can’t let that happen. Don’t let them divide and conquer. The very idea that KKKarl is laughing his ass off at this, makes me want to go out and buy more cookies and a whole bunch of chocolate, followed by a beer at beer thirty. I won’t give up, but I’m really concerned.
My preview is not working. Oh, how we all get uncomfortable with transistions. Hope this helps.
Tried preview again, still nuttin’.
Johnny Spectator @ 137
Obama supporter or Republican?
demi aka dmoore @ 135
I can understand your son’s point of view. But, it might end hurting more than helping.
Fish @ 121
Google it. You’ll find plenty on what Jane thinks of Mudcat.
Elliott @ 124
Honestly, I don’t think there is any way in hell the Fred Thompson could be nominated AND confirmed as a VP replacement. At this point in the campaign world with the time remaining in Bush’s admin, the only person possibly confimrable would be someone like an Alan Simpson who would be required to swear twetny-five different oaths that in no way would he cocnsider running for the presidency in ‘08. There is NO way that I can see that ANY potential candidate for the office would be confirmed and given a leg up. If nothing else, Clinton, Obama, McClain, Brownback, Dodd, Biden, Tancredo would form a Candidates Coalition to stop it from happening
vieravisionary @ 143
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 138
Yeah I know. I was here yesterday, but Fish wasn’t!!!! It’s a set-up, Joe. IMHO.
demi aka dmoore @ 140
Try closing your browser and clearing the cache completely.
Can Bush make a “recess” appointment for VP, if Cheney steps down, or is it different, because he it is an elected position?
Will do. Thanks.
LS @ 148
He’ll do it and have a signing statement.
dakine01 @ 144
that’s comforting, dakine. I can’t take another day of this regime let alone six or ten more years.
Obama is no conservative. He’s a community organizer, civil rights attorney, constitutional law prof, IL Democrat. Yes, he’s smart enough not to do a Kucinich, but if Obama is elected he’ll be the most liberal POTUS since FDR.
Please, I beg of people who are buying the spin on this guy to read his keynote at the Democratic Convention in 2004. Really parse it. It would make Kucinich proud….he just knows how to sell it. Notice the themes of rights, labor, morality, support of gov’t programs even! Yeah he went before A*P*C and has had to say military options are possible v. Iran, but he also had the balls to say the Palestinians were being given the shaft the week before he went.
Candidates shouldn’t have to bow before A*P*C, but what choice is there if you want to get elected?
Edited ** and released by Mod
LS @ 148
The 25th Amendment, ratified in 1967, solved the problem of how to replace a vice president. If Cheney resigned, President Bush would select a nominee for the vice presidency. Then the nominee would have to be approved by majority votes in both the House and the Senate.
You can be sure the HRC took into account how this endless campaign helps her.
Im already sick of it…esp Tweeties love of Hil.
LS @ 149
Twenty-fifth amendment covers this (from wiki) but most likely not.
sooo obama’s starting to flame out huh…..imagine MY surprise…….NOT!!!
Badwater @ 152
Aha. So, if Cheney resigned, and the Dems are in the majority, NO Bush nominee would be approved. How would Pelosi factor into this? Would she somehow be the default VP?
Elliott @ 152
Nixon put Ford in as VP as Ford was pretty much confirmable but it was a fight for Ford to get Nelso Rockefeller approved and the Rethugs booted him from the ticket in ‘76, preferring Bob Dole instead.
LS @ 157
Peleosi would be next in line until a new VP was approved by both houses, yes. With Robert Byrd behind her.
if only these wanna-bes would just stop insulting our intelligence….we do know how to separate the “wheat from the chaff” - damn!
dakine01 @ 158
PELOSI 2007!
Cheney has odd heart problem:
http://www.thespoof.com/news/s.....e=s2i20001
juslin @ 155
What is the cause your obvious disdain for Sen. Obama?
Julia,
Throw the minority, community organizer, civil rights lawyer, con law prof, Chicago Dem under the bus because he has the common sense not to sell himself as radical?
Radicals don’t win. I wish it were different. We need a Dem Congress and President to enact some campaign finance laws, labor laws, and remind everyone the gov’t can do good things.
Ah, the trolls are coming out from under the bridges. (They must be trolls, since they haven’t paid attention to anything that’s been said here in the last, oh, six months.)
Remember not to feed.
—
Not voting Obama. He’s supposed to be smarter than that. (Not really fond of Hillary either.)
since these repugs hate the gov’t soooo much - why is lynn cheney’s name being submitted as a senate replacement?? as for fred thompson - he’s the new repug god a la ray-gon i suppose - damn maybe we are that gullible - just thinking out loud
Elliott @ 161
No wonder she doesn’t want impeachment, she just wants Cheney to leave knowing no other nomination will fly! Sounds sweet to me.
LS @ 161
What’s odd is to consider that he really does have a heart.
LS @ 134
No, it’s a legitimate question.
Mudcat’s a moron and I don’t think what he has to say about the blogosphere is anything he thought he had to run past anyone, and I’m sure his “apology” (*cough*) came when the campaign wised up to what he’d said. As I’ve said before, Obama and Hillary don’t need the blogosphere, they just need us not to hate them. Edwards needs us more and so it’s doubly stupid that Mudcat would be shooting from the hip so recklessly.
This seems much more calculated and lawyers in Bauer’s position are not given to running their mouths quite so casually. I find it really hard to believe that this is something that would not be discussed and strategized. There are seventy two “consultants” being paid hundreds of dollars an hour to sit around conference tables and nitpick things like this.
LS @ 163
Okay, I rebooted and didn’t use my old link to here.
LS
must edit your quote: Cheney has odd heart (period).
Checking the quote button…and previewing…and Preview is Working. Let’s remind folks not to use Old Links to Firedoglake, but make new ones. Now, I’m gonna go lay, lie, lye down…get horizontal for a bit.:)
kdh@163
oh just a vibe i picked up from listening to him i have not heard anything forthright from him to put me in his corner but then i’m not impressed with the whole lot of them……….
Johnny Spectator @ 164
I can’t imagine that anyone is sufficiently disenclued as to think I have the power to throw anyone anywhere.
I just tend to wonder about the agendas of people who come in with their fists swinging.
There are seventy two “consultants” being paid hundreds of dollars an hour to sit around conference tables and nitpick things like this.
I am soo in the wrong line of work…..
P J Evans @ 166
Not sure who you mean, but earlier kdh22 said she’s Issa’s ex.
Maybe I’m way off-base with my comment. If so, I do apologize.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 118
866 675 2008. I got a live person in under a minute.
Other Pat @ 168
Ok, Ok, I replied before reading the link. my bad; my redundancy.
P J Evans @ 164
I hope you aren’t insinuating I’m a troll. I’ve been around here for a while. And, just so no one is confused, I’m not a troll. It’s too early for me to claim my choice.
As always, Jane’s right on the money on this.
OT - Larry Johnson, along with Ray Close,
James Marcinkowski, Philip Giraldi, Michael Grimaldi, Ray McGovern, Melvin Goodman, and David MacMichael, wrote an open letter to Mel Martinez, Chairman of the GOP regarding the:
This letter is a must read!!!
I’m a longtime FDL reader, but new to this posting thing. This is probably old stuff to rehash but is there a reason the American Israeli Political Action Committee gets stars like A*P*C when you want to use the acronym? If there is some reason that sentence can’t be printed, can I just ask why there is any editing about that certain PAC advocating on behalf of neocons can’t be mentioned explicitly? Sorry, I’m sure this has been answered before, but I”m curious. :)
Jane Hamsher @ 169
You’ve got a point for sure. So far, I have not ruled out Obama, and I just feel that restraint on immediately assuming the candidate approved or is behind the statements, should be met with a little caution. The idea that they just float things out there to “take the public’s temperature” on an issue certainly does sound like a strategy. I just don’t know. I just hope we end up with some good people to vote for to end this nightmare.
demi aka dmoore @ 173
Demi - I’m not Issa’s ex. I should have given a snark alert on that one. He reminds me sooooo much of my ex though. See my comment @ 176.
Hmmm. Wouldn’t a longtime reader refer to themself as a ‘lurker?’
kdh22 @ 178
Well, troll or not, I hope you’re getting a big alimony check, and if you’ve been here for a while, why on earth would you admit your past relationship with That Man?
Sorry, PJ, I fed.
Couldn’t help it this time, but will try really hard not to.
Obama, should he win the nomination, will have to move even more to the center…just beware. I hope to god he doesn’t choose Joe Lieberman. Lieberman, besides advocating war on Iran(WTF?) voted against the no confidence vote for Gonzales! How can any Democrat vote for Gonzales at this point? I get the Iran argument allow it’s dumb…but Gonzales? What possible reason does Joe have?
retirin’ in five @ 184
Ding!
dakine01 @ 186
DOuble Ding!!!
Siun @ 27
OfT, sorry.
Hi Siun:
I realized after I wrote the other morning that there is another good source of material on the legislative veto.
Louis Fisher wrote a book entitled Constitutional Crises between the Congress and the President.” I think the latest version was published in 1991 but I could be wrong.
I have other materials and cites. You can reach me at clichy at mac dot com if you are interested.
off topic, sorry in advance TRex:
demi aka dmoore @ 175
Oooooh, I think she was just going through a little identification with the type that Issa represents.
Johnny Spectator @ 187
Um, no Democrat voted for Gonzales. I know I keep harping on this, but regardless of what “The Washington Post” says, Joe Lieberman is not a Democrat. He was kicked to the curb by the Democratic party last year. Looking back, I think most people in the Connecticut Democratic party will tell you that it’s one of the best decisions they ever made.
kdh22 @ 183
kdh22 @ 183
Wow! David Shuster on MSNBC Hardball, opened up an Xtra-Large Can of Whoop-Ass on Karl Rove.
james @ 190
Thanks James. Glad you got the snark *g*
Jane Hamsher @ 170
[snip]
There are seventy two “consultants” being paid hundreds of dollars an hour to sit around conference tables and nitpick things like this.
Thanks, Jane. That really helps understand the dynamics of this. And where the $26 million is going…
Johnny Spectator @ 185
Toward the centre?? There is nobody that I have seen in American national politics that conforms in the least to what most people would think of as the “left”. Only degrees of being on the right.
kdh22 @ 178
I will vouch for khd22 - She is not a troll1!
Hi kdh22!!
LS @ 182
Does Obama and his consultants really think Dems would go for pardoning Scooter? Are they that stupid?
Helen @ 197
Hey Helen. Whazzzzup? Whaddya think of Cookies this a.m.? What a piece of Rescumlican work that one is!!!
Petrocelli @ 105
Wow–thanks for remembering, etc. Sorry–I was watching Waxman and Doan.
Have to say that the Bar Mitzvah was fantastic and couldn’t have been better. I give all the credit to MsZhiv, who is a relentless planner and sweats every detail. My effort was to agree with everything, along with some light editing on their speeches. And I have to say that my own speech was incredibly well-received.
The response actually speaks to your comment, Petro, because my father-in-law, who is a wonderful, sophisticated, complex man who was not very well understood or well supported by his father, was pretty deeply moved and he said he couldn’t help thinking how it would have made him feel if his own father had said something like that to him. I knew exactly what he meant, for himself, but at the same moment I had another realization, and I said to him, you know, you’re right, I wish my father had said that to me, and I guess that’s why I wrote it.
It really couldn’t have been better. I have to add that one of the reasons why I was able to knock the speech out of the park was because I was coming up to the bima/plate with a lot of confidence. My daughter had her Bat Mitzvah 4 years ago and I talked about “the extraordinary joy of raising a daughter at this moment in the world’s history, when the women’s movement has been the most significant social revolution of my lifetime” (the thumbnail quote from the new speech). Last time I had the vets of women’s lib, cousins, and moms grabbing my arm and saying how much they loved it. So, appropriately, this time it was the guys.
And when I got to the aftermath, early last week, and started to write out a narrative of the event in my “notes and thoughts,” I remembered that I started what I knew would be a nerve-wracking morning by putting up some thoughts on FDL. The feedback here was wonderful, so supportive, and it meant a lot.
It was actually kind of a trial balloon if you will–showing I guess that the dogs giveth, and they taketh away.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 200
Dems or Obama and his consultants?
Hey kdh22 - I missed most of cookies - had meetings all day long. But I was able to see Sorbanes smack down. Am hoping they re-run it tonight.
Johnny Spectator @ 187
Pissing off Schumer and Feinstein, for his own evil personal reason. They were both working RGJoe really hard for the AbuG vote, and he went all thumbs-down with them on either side of him in the well of the USSenate.
The bi-coastal duo walked away in disgust, and watching CSPAN, you could see RGJoe pursue them to “explain” his vote. They seemed to have little interest in what he had to say.
Personally, I hope they are happy, since they coulda had a NED! [slaps forehead]
tweety’s in full fred thompson mode - just as he was for bushco - i guess he hasnt learned anything yet…………
Bob Schacht @ 92
Really??
The Democracy Project?? Wasn’t that the name used by the Reagan Administration to silence the news outlets who decided to tell the truth about what was going on wrt Iran-Contra??
zhiv @ 202
This is great, glad it went well. Remind us what you said?
Helen @ 202
I’ll have to see it late late night if it’s on. Gotta work my 2nd job tonight. Ick! Oh well, it could be worse. And, by the way, thanks for vouching for me. ‘Preciate it!
Helen @ 204
Follow along the live blogging if you do. I think we hit the appropriate amount of snark as she squirmed.
juslin @ 204
He’s learned where his paycheck comes from.
I am sorry about the Obama confusion. He’s obviously very bright…what about courage? Organization? He should not have missed the vote on AG, he should not be offering any comfort to Libby (through his spokesman). It is hard not to want him to be the great fresh hope, the visionary, etc. Maybe he really needs to go back to Presidential school. I want to wish him well; his effectiveness should not, however, mean more to me than it does to him.
Badwater @ 209
How can you stand to watch him? I sent him an e-mail a couple of weeks ago and said that I was tired of him spitting on his guests and talking about the Clinton’s sex life since he was beginning to sound like a pervert.
Other Pat @ 66
That’s not an unreasonable scenario, but I don’t think that a Democratic Congress is going to accept as replacement VEEP someone who will be a candidate. A better bet, all the way around, would be someone like Sen. John Warner, who is getting ready to retire anyway, but has respect on both sides of the aisle. I used to think that McCain would be the choice for Cheney’s replacement, but that was before his presidential campaign remped up.
Bob in HI
Folks - on this “lurker” vs “reader” thing …
I have to say that I always refer to *all* our readers as just that *readers*
The lurker usage has implications which do not reflect the interest and engagement of the thousands of folks who read FDL each day.
I disagree totally with Johnny Spectator but I’m not a fan of the hints being floated about.
zhiv @ 202
I’m writing a compilation of yoga wisdom for raising children and another book for children to read, containing nuggets of wisdom that can help steer their way. Your speech for your son’s momentous event was moving, can you post the speech you made at the Bat Mitzvah?
I promise you, I will not plagiarise !!! *g*
Frank Probst @ 176
Thanks. I just got off the phone. The guy that answered was nice enough. I just told him I was greatly disappointed in Obama for this, and that I am inclined to support Obama, but things like this make it awfully hard.
Twain @ 211,
I usually only watch part because it preceeds Countdown.
TeddySanFran-
That’s cool info, thanks. I figured there had to be something going on…I mean even Holy Joe can’t really support Gonzo. Joe has showed himself to be a total douche but Gonzo has been caught lying to the Congress - flat-out - like 3 times now. (And there is the not “caught” but obvious lie…”I don’t recall speaking about firing Mr. Fitzgerald”- yeah that conversation wouldn’t have been important.)
So, another question, since you knew about the first. Why wait all this time to try for the No Confidence Vote? Why didn’t they strike when the iron was hot? And isn’t he due in front of some House Committee soon…seems like that would have been a good time *you have to assume he’ll continue lying and not recalling. So any thoughts?
Siun @ 215
I go through phases…sometimes I feel like a nut, sometimes I don’t.
Badwater @ 216
You’re forgiven :)
Siun @ 215
Hear, hear! Nobody should feel obliged to post. And those who do should realize, IIRC, that there are usually many more readers than posters.
The term “lurk” is a bit unfortunate as it carries some nasty associations that don’t really fit here…
Siun @ 214
All around cyberspace, whether its blogs or e-mail discussion groups, participation tends to follow a Poisson distribution: A small number of very active contributors, and a large majority that never contributes. There’s nothing sinister about it. Its just a typical human behavior thingy.
Bob in HI
demi aka dmoore @ 220
Yo demi, weren’t you going for a nap? *g*
JK’s c @ 217: The person I talked to seemed very aware of the fact that there’s a problem, which I took to be a big step in the right direction.
Bob Schacht @ 214
It depends on what faith you have in Harry Reid. I don’t think Cheney will resign. The only way Cheney will leave being VP before Jan. of 2009 is if he’s frogmarched out.
Um, I did not have kdh22 in mind. Or any of the other regulars. It’s the ones who show up suddenly, trying to start arguments (if not fights) with everyone: they set off my troll-sensor.
kdh22 @ 201
I don’t think you’re a troll either. However I noticed you called out my name back in the other thread. Something I can do for you? I was with a client but back on now.
Yes, mom….going now…
sorry for the issa - ex. thing. I was off base, off track. Between the heat and this am’s hearing, well…still, sorry.
UGhh!! Toensing’s hubby is on Hardball right now. :-(
Johnny at 181 — Yes, there is a particular reason for that: we have a particularly racist troll who uses IP rotating software, and who has had a history of trying to sneak incredibly racist, anti-semetic posts (and I do mean the truly disgusting sort) into the comments. He tries to mask it using other names for “jew” which included A*PAC, among a number of others which I will not print publicly for him or any other troll to workaround. To moderate his bile, we added terminology to the filter — because we couldn’t pinpoint an IP on him (and a couple of other folks who tried this tack as well). Posts using the acronym which are not that sort of nastiness get freed quickly by the moderators — it isn’t that you can’t say it, you just have to pause for a moment before it appears. HTH!
Bauer and his like minded friends seem to think the public is gullible and easily influenced. It is they who are the fools for they have no idea how trasparently ignoble they appear to Mr. & Mrs. Average. As if, the past 6years have not provided enough to be cynical about we now have these supposedly progressive fools fouling the judicial system with their smart games. Are we making a list of all who have added their voices to the pardon Libby chorus? I hope so, and whenever they offer opinions in the future, let there be a chorus reminding them that their opinions are not worth listening to. They have no credibility or stature in any converstion of national import.
138 -
Well, if we had to limit ourselves to just one reason, that wouldn’t be my top pick - but who says we can’t use ALL the reasons?
Badwater @ 218
I reuse to watch Countdown while that girl subs for KO … if they’re going to have someone sub for KO,
I’d prefer someone of greater substance … like Katie Couric !!! /s
… tee hee …
The comments on reading vs. posting reminds me of another thing. The number of posts per thread (and per minute) seems to be going through the roof! It’s up a lot even since I started on FDL, only a few weeks ago. It’s getting hard to keep up, especially if you start after the thread has begun. Don’t know if there is a good solution, but I just wanted to mention it (of course, it’s a “good” problem, the kind that comes with success).
Well I can’t even claim to lurk in this forum…I stick to the front page. I appreciate Suin comments, I don’t think the troll stuff is very productive. We all can’t agree. I got called that quite frequently in the Truthout forums when they went through that half-ass’d non-apology about the Rove indictment story. I was a long time reader of Truthout and felt offended they didn’t come clean and just apologize or do something to Jason Leopold (who claimed he would out multiple sources and then never did).
This is all to say I understand the whole problem with distinguishing between someone new and passionate and someone just trying to cause trouble.
Huh? Obama’s not wasting any time harvesting e-mail addys. I went to his site through the link Alice had last thread and registered my complaint on Bauer’s post. I just got an e-mail inviting me to the San Antonio “Kick-off” for the Obama campaign on 6/24…
kdh22 @ 196
Got it and chuckled as I envisioned my ex and how often she is represented by others.
We know you aren’t troll material, girl!!
I don’t like the idea of a pardon, further discovery will show the extent of damage during sentencing and afterward…
Then again I don’t like the idea of client state status, and our air power, working with iranian boots in Iraq, but it’s where we are headed.
A pardon is Bush’s plan Z. He wants to save it until the end. In any event the conviction takes him off plan A/stay the course approach to things, and that’s the only thing he had as a narrative.
demi aka dmoore @ 229
I thought I misunderstood … you said you were going to lay down … get horizontal … I assumed you meant that you were taking a nap.
Is Clooney anywhere around? *g*
dakine01 @ 237
Don’t worry, in a few minutes they’ll ask for money too! :-)
Fresh thready goodness up and ready for the reading, gang.
demi aka dmoore @ 112
Did you click on “Submit Comment”? and then wait for comments to be refreshed?
Bob in HI
somehow i’m on all the dems lists for reasons unknown to me as i’m not a registered dem - tho it could be b/c i’m a member of different progressive groups…
Toensing’s hubby:
“If Scooter spends one day in jail it will be a black mark on Bush that is indelible”.
Benvenisty:
Bush has the right to pardon, and if he takes responsibility for it, so be it. Unless Scooter danger to public, he should be able to be free until proven guilty by appeal. (or something to that effect). WTF
Christy,
Thanks for the info, just curious. And just want to make clear that I don’t associate A#PAC with ethnicity or religion. I don’t blame them for everything, but I do think they represent a pretty reactionary wing of the Israeli politics. I wish there was another such Israel lobby that wasn’t so in favor of military action.
I just spoke with a woman at Obama’s headquarters. I explained how appalled I was that Bob Bauer could talk of pardoning Libby after the years of hard work put in by so many people to hold this administration accountable.
She read Obama’s statement to me that ended with “Bob Bauer does not speak for Sen. Obama.” I then asked what Bauer’s position is with the campaign and she said he is the chief legal consultant.
I then said, “Well then that’s terrifying.”
I also said that I was not particularly a Clinton supporter and I am now wondering who to look at. She said I caught her as she was drafting a note to their policy department and that she would include my thoughts.
Now they’re saying she was NOT covert. Good Lord.
Zombie lies from Mr Victoria Toensing. Nice suit, Joe: are you in a Ron Jeremy lookalike contest?
LibertyLee @ 22
I am unaware that any such “campaign against Mr. Libby” exists. I am aware, on the other hand, that this Lawyer blocked a Federal investigation by perjuring himself multiple times. This, by the by and regardles of the opinions of MoveOn, DailyKos or this site, is against the law, you know what those not blinded by the right call a felony……..
The law, by the way, regarding the outing of an undercover CIA agent, in time of war especially, is quite specific, its a really bad no-no. This is in no way any such “disagreement”. The CIA has unequivocably stated that Ms. Plame was indeed a covert operative so there goes that canard as well. Frankly ,Liberty, you aint doing so hot.
Tweety just said Libby was doing the government’s business.
Petrocelli @ 240
Jesus, I hope not!!!
LS @ 248
If they spin any more, they’ll whip up a tornado !!!
tweety disagreed with joe digenova’s support for libby saying libby was doing gov’t business - its to laugh
btw - is KO on vacation? i cant find out - subs for 2 nights now…..
There are two sides to the Libby no-pardon crowd. The one side wants him pardoned to vindicate the whole Plame affair (it wont’ but they think it will). And the other *Tweety version* sees him as a nice guy who was lying just like everyone else, was one of many involved in the Plame outing (but not the architect -likely Cheney), and yet he faces jail. It isn’t that Libby didn’t commit crime it’s just that he is being unjustly treated compared the other crooks involved.
The problem for Scooter is that he’s still a convict. That’s why I feel so strongly Fitzgerald is getting a free pass on this.
Other Pat @ 67
Not buying it. The power he has achieved as VP has been his whole life’s dream. He won’t give it up until it’s wrestled from his cold lifeless fingers…
petedownunder @ 11
Me too! Run, Al, run. Please!!!!!!!!
There goes Tweety again…asking if Thompson has “sex appeal”? “Mature older man, seasoned, in charge of himself” the new “Robert Redford or Matt Damon”. He has lost it!!!
Plagiarize away, Petro: mi speech su speech. Trying to figure out the chunk of the speech I posted: I’m sure I left out the jokes and went to the heart of the matter.
This is my own favorite part, that got a great laugh, which I didn’t post originally (it came right after the women’s movement reference):
When Charly was born I knew that raising him would be easy, that having a son would be a no-brainer for me. Some of our friends here will remember that I wanted to name you Caesar Zhivkin, and I planned to simply throw you in the deep end of the pool and raise you with the warm and gentle, nurturing kindness that the Spartans lavished on their sons. I knew that the stoical, no pain no gain philosophy of silence, exile, and cunning which has made me such an exemplar of joyful expansiveness and hopeful sympathy (big laugh–not obvious zhiv qualities) would seamlessly turn you into an elite athlete, a capitalist warrior and a conqueror of women and whole worlds. (snip)…that was how it was supposed to go.
(snip) …over time Charly provided me with a challenging and astonishing breakthrough, showing me how rich and different life can be when you let go of competition for competition’s sake. (snip) He did this effortlessly, just in the process of being himself, and being true to his nature. And so in fact raising a son has been easy and a no-brainer. Charly has been so good and interesting and fun, that it has been a complete joy. The only hard part has been my own false assumptions, twisted priorities, and tangled projections. And you, Charly, have made me a better man…
(the part I think I posted:)
You’re truly a member of your own generation, and a leader of that generation. As such, you give your parents and elders great hope for the future. You are so free and so considerate and open and unbiased. Your world and the assumptions that support and define it are completely different from the naive and unconscious prejudices of my own childhood and youth, when everybody had to be the same, when there was a small group of winners and the losers were out of luck. I know you’ll take advantage of the open and free society in which you live. You’ll make it a better place with your fantastic art and equally amazing sense of social responsibility.
And yes, Charly, you have the heart and mind of a hero, but you represent a new type of manhood that breaks with tradition, and you won’t be the prisoner of old assumptions and prejudices and fears. I can’t tell you how important that is right now, in the world in which we live. All of us can learn from your approach to life. There is no opponent, no enemy, no one to conquer and kill. No one knows better than you that life is about love, and love is about respecting life. You would never wage war or fall prey to false premises of violence, oppression and greed. Your life already shows the highest values of communication and diplomacy and the understanding and celebration of differences. And whether you are an artist or a statesman or both, you will bring people together and continue to make them laugh and smile, make them feel more alive somehow, and you will help us all enjoy the precious gifts of freedom and fellowship.
So that was it. As a proud dad, all I can say is that you have to know the kid. His voice cracked on his first line of the torah portion and he couldn’t stop laughing, egged on a little by his sister at his side. No one knew what would happen next. The rabbi stepped up and put his hand on his shoulder, and from that point on he was flawless, had close to 100 friends at his party, stayed up until 7am with his 5 cronies. Knows how to seize the moment, knows how to have a good time. L’chaim.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 231
Christy,
So glad you explained this. I probably missed it and you have explained earlier, but I don’t think I have actually seen you mention the behind the scenes reason for filtering out certain words, though I assumed this was the case.
I think it explains a lot to your mostly lurkers like me. There is soooo much good information here that I find myself just reading most of the time, getting the urge to post infrequently.
Hmmm. Guess this is one of those times.
Confession. I find myself at this site more than any other site on the internet.
Does that mean I’m addicted, or what?
And also, I want to say….yay Jane! I don’t know how the hell you do it, but you have been on fire lately. Thank you.
Oh good gawd I made a mistake and tuned into Tweety after a couple weeks hiatus.. Tweety asks Wonkette if Thompson has sex appeal…
When will I ever learn….click
It’s funny that Digby would call Bauer’s argument “sophomoric”. If anything, it’s been the blogosphere that deserves that label for failing to understand the argument, misrepresenting it into something that it was not, and then attempting to save face with nonsense like this post after realizing the initial impressions were dead wrong.
This is certainly not something new. It seems as though some people are way too eager to pounce on any potential misstep by Obama. 2 years from now, they’ll look back at posts like this with embarrassment, pretending they were just making sure he was the right guy.
Zhiv 260,
Beautifully put. Lucky Charly!!
every now and again tweety will actually have an interesting insight or a thought that doesnt come from the repug TPs and its those times as i’m watching that have me returning to his show…..
Eureka … saw that, think someone should tell Tweety he is really looking like a perv these days.
There he goes again Anna Marie COX, then immediate segues into “sexual innuendo” ….
I guess he is trying to say that humans vote for the “sexiest” other human. There is some truth to that unfortunately in human nature.
So glad this is epu–long and personal and very happy that the masses have moved on. But much happier that you liked it, Petro. I’m a humble devotee of the Yoga world and trying to help kids find their own new path and wisdom, so your interest and support is a great pleasure.
Obama’s man may have simply said aloud advisory items Colin powell told him behind closed doors as a way to open the Senator’s eyes…
Personally, I think acceptance of the bipartisan corruption is the truth that will set us all free (if we dont get detained at Gitmo first).
LS @ 264
Thanks LS.
Mike @ 264
Speak for yourself. Given what we know about Bush, what makes pardoning Libby a good idea?
Robert Bauer’s article does not argue that pardoning Libby is the right thing to do. Rather he says, let Bush pardon him, and continue his unbroken string of doing the wrong thing. That way, it is Bush who bears the blame instead of a guy named Scooter. It is not in any way a case for forgiving Libby.
Please visit the Schapira blog, “What we know so far …”
… and tell ‘em Big Mitch sent ya!”
Is this the same “Bob Bauer” that was said to be against Campaign finance reform?
If this is the same guy why did Obama pick another DLC “enabler” of the current corrupt political campaign $$$ system?
zhiv @ 269
I had to take my kids out, or I would have enjoyed an EPU chat with you. I have never been to a Bar/Bat Mitzvah, although I live in multi- cultural Toronto. In my young and foolish days, I avoided all rituals, even that of “my own people”.
Now that I am (somewhat) older and (hopefully) wiser, I am too busy shuttling my own kids around to their classes to attend any ceremonies.
Perhaps another time, we can chat about kids, yoga, etc.
Mazel Tov !
Anyone stupid enough to smoke is too stupid to run the country and lead the world.
CheckingIn @ 275
Because Obama serves the masters of the corrupt system.
It’s the price he pays for their support.
A pliant Chicago machine tool…
all wrapped up in a $2,000 suit.
Purchased - along with his vote - by Obama’s masters, the megacorps.
Yep, Obama’s masters.
He sold his freedom to fund his ambition.
He’ll sell our freedoms - if we let him.
If we nominate him.
Forty years ago one corrupt Chicago machine tool sank the Democrats’ Presidential campaign.
But hey - if the Dems lose, the megacorps win.
If Obama wins, the megacorps win.
Hopefully, Judge Walton tomorrow will order that Scooter “you do the crime, you do the time” Libby is sent to the Big House, but give him a few days to put his affairs in order…and to get a tattoo or two so he’ll fit in on the inside…maybe one on his chest (or back) saying “I LOVE DICK_cheney,” or something.
The Republican Party under Bush, Cheney, Rove and Gonzales have become a criminal syndicate involved in a criminal conspiracy against our democracy and of a scale far beyond anything Richard Nixon or Ronald Reagan pulled.
This Republican criminal conspiracy has the support of the worst elements in our democratic society…the racists, the sexists, the religious fanatics, the corporate Robber Barons…and has permeated all branches of our government, including all departments in the executive branch.
Scooter Libby is the Republican “firewall” charged with protecting the heads of the Republican crime family in the White House, in an attempt to cover-up crimes far worse, and more widespread, than those committed by Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan.
In other words, the only lesson Republicans took from Nixon and Reagan getting caught was that when they seized control again of the top levels of our democratic government, they wouldn’t just settle for a little criminal activity, but go for the whole enchilada…total subversion of our democracy to their one-party partisan (sexist, racist, elitist, corporatist, religious fanaticist) agenda through the sabotaging of all of our democratic institutions.
And little Scooter Libby is part of this evil that has beset our great nation and undermined all that our freedom-loving democracy holds dear and values.
Bustednuckles @ 174
you aint shittin’ busted.
Down with thin gruel! No more, on the one hand this and the other hand that. My stomach is growling for Dean talk!
The Oracle @ 279
This is what I’m looking for in the candidates - some indication that he (not she, too late for that, Officer DLC) gets that our constitution has been, well, interfered with ( she said, delicately). I want to hear some Dean roar about what has been harmed.
I want my guy to wrap himself in the Constitution and howl with the pain of the terrible harm the Bush Thurgs have done. I am very very disappointed that I don’t hear it.
Good thread, Jane. :o)
I think every one of these candidates is very much a “work in progress” especially, the three frontrunners.
I think this is especially true because of the insanity into which george bush has submerged america. The very act of defending he and his administration, and his policies, is demented. And there are so many things for which they deserve to be excoriated, and the political seismic climate is so dicey, that sometimes it’s hard to get a reading on the candidates from day to day.
As Iraq unspinnably implodes, and a large chunk of the electorate has to eat their part in it, I fear it will only get worse.
Do we lift a cold one to Hunter, every time we use “fear and loathing”?
LibertyLee @ 22
Don’t come to my town, and knock on MY door with that treasonous platitude. *G*
Sorry. I know, don’t feed trolls . . *sigh*
kathleen @ 35
It was ORDERED!! Obama mighta been informed of it, too, or not.
But he’s out, gone. Shilary is now in.
The men in dark suits at the mahogany table who are the REAL ‘deciders’ made it so. The trade is the next President will pardon everyone, even after Iran is hit.
Obama was NOT the first choice for the Dem’s among the men in dark suits, Hilary was all along. But he served a useful distraction as a minority black man. When the Iowa polls kept confirming his win, the men in dark suits had to take him out of the game.
I’m sure they wanted him to run longer, but, this is it, he’s out.
Kuch is gone, although my fav, he’s been obviated fully.
Edwards is a problem, so he’ll most likely be brought in to do VP duties. And when the men in the dark suits TELL him his role, he will thank Shilary and accept the new kitchen apron and WH decorating duties he will be assigned.
Gore? TBD, but, I’m feeling at this point, that unless there ARE impeachments, and a HUGE change of government BEFORE the ‘09 Erections, he will also be negated in one for or another. Maybe offered a VP post, again . . that will kill his chances for anything.
It’s all controlled from WAY above the poltical party’s and our branches of gubbermint.
Shilary, or Fred Thompson. And either to pardon the previe convicts. Simple.
Might as well vote Green. Or Red. Or Brown. IT’s a loss either way, and the bad guys will run free and we WILL still be a militarist and interventionist and BEASTLY country with diminishing rights under a despotic rule.
Less the people just up and revolt.
N they got plans for THAT, too.
Speak Canadien, Eh? *G*