Mudcat Saunders got the attention he wanted courtesy of Time Magazine and some blogger-baiting rhetoric. Unfortunately, he got it on John Edwards’ back, and it’s left for the Edwards campaign to clean up the mess.
It’s bad enough that Mudcat used his blogging forray to trash liberal bloggers, but doubly so because he did it in defense of Joe Klein’s elitist screed about Scooter Libby, which is impossible to read as anything other than “things like this shouldn’t happen to People Like Us.”
Does John Edwards really believe this?
His “perjury”–not telling the truth about which reporters he talked to–would never be considered significant enough to reach trial, much less sentencing, much less time in stir if he weren’t Dick Cheney’s hatchet man… But jail time? Do we really want to spend our tax dollars keeping Scooter Libby behind bars? I don’t think so. This “perjury” case only exists because of his celebrity…
I don’t believe that Edwards does. But his paid political strategist seems to, and Mudcat’s half-hearted apology for telling liberal bloggers to “go to hell” did not appear quite so deeply held as his interest in perpetuating the kind of class warfare that has been a hallmark of Republican talking points for decades, one that Edwards himself has suffered from mightily. Leave aside for the moment the absurd notion that bloggers are opera lovers while Joe Klein is what, a man of the people? Saunders’ rhetoric is utterly divisive and lays the groundwork for an elite punditocracy to endlessly drub Edwards for his $400 haircut. We know that’s just prattle from people who have no problem forking over $400 for a haircut themselves but hate Edwards for being a class traitor, and Mudcat’s senseless stereotyping plays right into their hands.
But the problem with Mudcat Saunders working on the Edwards campaign goes further than just optics, and has to do with the substance of his campaign strategy. While working as a consultant Eric Ferguson in Virginia’s 9th district, Saunders coached Ferguson to criticize his opponent (longtime incumbent Del. Allen Dudley) for renting to undocumented immigrants. Considering the impressive commitment that both John and Elizabeth Edwards have to ending poverty, I think it’s important at this time that they stand up and distance themselves from Saunders, his rhetoric and these kinds of policies. While immigration reform is no doubt an important topic, I can’t believe that they feel that making the lives of undocumented immigrants even more harsh and miserable is something that either of them find acceptable, or a pillar of their plan to end poverty in this country.
Saying that “Mudcat will be Mudcat” is not enough. I invite Senator Edwards to appear on a Blue America session with Howie Klein to distance himself from Saunders’ comments and give his liberal supporters the reassurance they deserve that these attitudes will not be reflected in his Presidential campaign as it goes forward.
(photo of Joe Klein at the New York City Ballet courtesy David Patrick Columbia’s New York Social Diary)



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Jane!
And Mudcat isn’t the only other Democratic stratergerist who needs to find another line of work.
IMNSHO, Edwards would be far better served by bringing Amanda Marcotte and Melissa McEwan back to the campaign and telling both Mudcat and the Xtianists to go p*ss up a rope.
That dress that Leslie Stahl is wearing looks exactly like the one I wore as a bridesmaid in my brother’s wedding in 1988.
I invite Senator Edwards to appear on a Blue America session with Howie Klein to distance himself from Saunders’ comments and give his liberal supporters the reassurance they deserve that these attitudes will not be reflected in his Presidential campaign as it goes forward.
Yes, ding, DING!
I’m sorta surprised Jane’s post didn’t explicitly and loudly draw the contrast to Edwards sacking Marcotte and McEwan and keeping Mudcat.
Also, isn’t Mudcat’s claim to fame in winning elections based on two statewide races in Virginia? Isn’t the Dem success in Virginia mostly based on the growing population of the “Metropolitan Opera” types in NOVA?
I was raised in the mountains of North Carolina, and would love to have a “word of prayer” with Mr Mudcat.
I was going to say what dakine said, but he beat me to it.
Thank you, Jane. It’s been bugging me since I read that nonsense from Saunders that Edwards’ campaign was going to suffer for this.
I’m sure I could recommend better strategists who are committed to grassroots as well as the same philosophy and ethics as Edwards — and probably for a lot less money and a LOT less heartburn.
Joe Klein is pictured hobnobbing with his wanker buddy Richard Cohen.
tommy yum @ 7
I’d like to sit in a waffle house in No. GA while I ordered my unsweet ice tea.
Why is it that Dems always seem to be on the back side of campaign strategery? This whole NASCAR and Christianist business is from a few election cycles ago. Just because you are from the South doesn’t mean you need to pander to it. Its power in national politics is finally ebbing.
I’ve never seen so much bad facial hair. Whose beard is Lesley serving as?
Gnome de Plume @ 8
;})
Hell yeah! Ms. Hamsher in the hizzy!
Elizabeth and John: You don’t need this tool. He’s hurting your campaign. YOU are your own “rural liaison.” Just be true to yourselves, and people will support you. Honestly, if you keep children like Mudcat around, my current support will likely waver.
Besides, by kicking Mudcat to the curb, maybe he and Monica Goodling can start a Liaison Agency!
Carl Nyberg @ 6
But they wrote stuff before joining the campaign that offended the radical right (that will never vote for Edwards) who complain on the boob tube. Mudcat’s only guilty of insulting a key demographic for Edwards on the intertubes, gratuitously and in official capacity of the campaign. No similarities at all. Clearly the women deserved the harsher response.
Defending or laughing off Mudcat’s comments is really damaging to Edwards, at least for me. It’s like having James Carville on board, or saying it’s okay to use sleaze merchants like Shrum and Dan Gerstein. It reflects on the campaign, so Edwards should at least be decent enough to own up to the responsibility of it coming from his campaign.
Crap like this makes “forgetting the South” seem like an interesting idea, even though I don’t normally think that way.
Smashing serve, dear! The ball is now in Edwards/Mudcat’s court.
Joe Klein and Richard Cohen are clearly members of the Drones Club.
Joe Klein and Richard Cohen are clearly members of the Drones Club.
*xyz @ 18
To put it nicely, Joe Klein is a putz of the highest order.
Edwards should fire the guy. He needs an unapologetically progressive and clear-eyed staff. This Muddcat is not a populist, or if he is he’s a BS populist. I couldn’t make heads or tails out of the apology, partly because I didn’t want too. I mean what’s this crap that “I don’t know any Southerner who doesn’t have a black friend” That’s the typical refrain of someone who feels unsure that they justed said something racist. Why the name calling? Why point fingers at bloggers/”elitists” like they’re Trotskyites of the party in the first place? Is this directed at Hilllary? Or Al Gore? Because Al Gore loves the blogosphere. He said so in his latest book.
I can’t even post here for all of you to read the comments left on my blog by reich wing commenters. Never do I get an actual dialogue from them! It’s just constant insulting, vile language, and put downs. Tired of them. Of course, being a female liberal blogger is evil to the reich wingers. They figure they can go after us and just cave. Nope. Not going to happen.
I met Edwards in Jan., talked briefly with him about my blogging both at my place and at HUffPo, met with a couple of staffers who gave me their emails.
I sent requests to them 3 different times for info, conference calls, blogger’s updates, meet-ups etc., NO response.
I’m pretty small potatoes, but with the HuffPo exposure potential, I would think they would be interested in talking with me.
Seems pretty tone deaf to me, so I’ll be really curious to see whow he responds to your invitation.
I asked Howie to invite Edwards to Blue America a while back and his response was that he already had. I hope you have better luck.
BTW, when I try to quote a comment (or refresh comments), all I get is the never-ending “Circle of Doom.” I’m on IE7.
I really, really want to believe Edwards was too busy, not paying enough attention and got flamboozled by this con-, I mean “populist,” Muddcat. I’d rather believe that than believe he’s a sincere believer in the Muddcat.
Thanks for posting on this Jane, it has made for an interesting day over at the Swamp. The thread is probably 90% unforgiving.
…and the SOB had the nerve to insult MY MOTHER!!!
I read all of Mudcats meandering posts.
Tilting at straw windmills, IMO.
JPL @ 11
Unsweetened iced tea in any Waffle House, much less one in No. GA, is nothing short of sacrilege!
MayDaze @ 24
I hope so, too.
For the past 4? days or so, that has often meant that a new thread is up top. That can prompt a race to the elusive Zed. But if you don’t care about that, just do a hard page reload.
Bob in HI
JOe Klein another member of the press who is “condoning illegality” for those with position.
What gives with Klein?
Is that Leslie Stahl in that red dress? Stahl outed that there was an A*P*C investigation
http://www.jewishjournal.com/h…..p?id=13447
I don’t think the F.B.I. was too happy with the outing of this investigation by Stahl.
So, in Roanoke in 2006:
Tell me, Mudhen, when did you become the Edwards liaison to rurality? And where does your paycheck really come from?
These traffic-generating stunts at Swampland are getting really old, but in this case, John and Elizabeth need to dump the mudhen. Now, please — before he pisses off another crucial aspect of your base of support. If liberal bloggers all go to hell, so does our money and enthusiasm.
Now, please.
Consultants are the bane of the democratic party’s existence. James Carville, Bob Shrum, and “mudcat” need to be barred from ever approaching a candidate for a campaign and being welcomed with open arms.
They bleed our hard earned contributions dry, and they have really crappy advice. Mudcat is just another incarnation of this.
We do need to have a discussion about rural voters and what can be done to make them see how the Republican party promises to get the gay, or the abortionist, and then shaft them in the pocketbook with gays still breathing, and abortion (in some areas) still legal.
Mudcat has shown tempermentally that he isn’t the guy to do it, and if Edwards was willing to fire his two bloggers because a lunatic like Bill O’Donahue was offended, perhaps he ought to listen to the base as well.
i’ve been trying to figure out why some of these consultants get hired… and i just don’t get it.
is it to buy them off so that they won’t write nasty things about the candidate? but, that doesn’t make any sense if the candidate’s supporters are fair game?
what does mudcat add to the edward’s campaign? what am i missing?
puppethead @ 16
It goes back to my orginal question when Hillary announced, when she told us to go find someone else to vote for if we don’t like her. Why do Rethuglicans kiss their base’s ass, while Democrats run from theirs? I don’t get it.
KayInMaine @ 22
I’m sorry KayinMaine. They like to write a lot of bathroom wall stuff. It’s like watching that movie where a woman becomes a miner and has to file a harassment suit because of the sexual harassment/violence.
It is about FARGIN time that reTHUGlican lites like ol’mudcrap should just go over to the Goopers and leave us the farg alone…
In his own way, Saunders is just as classist and determined to maintain the elite’s status quo as he states his nemeses to be…This totemization of the ‘common man’ as a cardboard cutout superhero to be emulated by the very people who would use their heads as a golf tee given the opportunity, while the rubes fall for the wholesome schtick…What a passel of okey-doke drivel.
p.lukasiak @ 27
I skimmed a few of the comments and they seem to be running about 9 to 1 in your favor. Mudcat seems to have let his alligator mouth overload his hummingbird a**. Again.
Ya know, I’ve been defending and talking up The Edwardses for a few months. Now I’m having visions of Edwards being Prez or VP, and we’d be subjected to the next James Carville…Mudcat Saunders: Southern Populist.
Clicked on one of Jane’s links, and we get Nip n’ Tucker Carlson talking up Mudcat. With friends like these….
The next move by Edwards will certainly give insight into his (their) leadership skills.
p.lukasiak @ 27
Mudcat’s too stupid to know when to shut up. He’s pissing gasoline on the fire he started, and doesn’t realize how quickly this could grow. As for his misleading comment that 40% of the population will be in the South by 2020, it’ll also significantly be in the BIG CITIES. Like a true snake oil huckster, he only uses partial truth. I’m not sure there’s a lot of similarities between Mudcat’s swamp buddies and the residents of Atlanta.
TeddySanFran @ 32
At first, I was convinced that Mudcat was just saying what he did as a traffic generating ploy. Now, I am not so sure.
KayInMaine @ 22
Kay, might I suggest implementing the Lisa Williams’ “living room doctrine“? If it’s not suitable for your living room, you remove it. I swear they are like toddlers and preschoolers, always testing the boundaries. And boundaries have to be enforced — good fences make good neighbors and all.
I’m so tired of the Libby talking points. I get especially irritated at the claims that the whole story arc never would have happened if Libby hadn’t been famous. Newsflash: Libby WASN’T famous. At the time of his indictment, the whole story was soft-pedaled, because nobody knew who Libby was or what he did. Don’t believe me? Ask all but the most zealous Plame-watchers any of these questions: Can you name any of the three important positions that Libby held? Even if you can’t, can you name any of the people that took over those jobs after Libby resigned?
As for the progression of the entire story, I just don’t see how anyone can say that we never should have gotten to this point. Libby was convicted of lying his ass off to the FBI and the grand jury. Here’s how the story progressed:
1. Multiple administration officials (Armitage, Rove, and Libby for sure, and there may be others) leaked the identity of a covert CIA operative to multiple journalists.
2. The CIA wanted to know how this happened, and they asked for an investigation. The FBI investigated. Let’s recap that: The CIA asked for intelligence. Why? Well, for starters, “intelligence” is part of their name. The FBI performed the investigation. Why? Again, “investigation” is part of its name. In other words, both of these agencies were doing what they were supposed to be doing. It’s right there in their damn names.
3. The FBI suspected that at least two people–Rove and Libby–were lying to them. We now know that both of these individuals leaked Plame’s identity to at least two journalists, so there was clear motive for them to lie. In other words, these were the individuals that the CIA wanted to know about, and the FBI thought that both of them were lying to them.
4. The FBI, believing that Libby (and possibly others) was lying to them, asked the Department of Justice to appoint a special prosecutor. Lying to the FBI is a felony, as we now know. The FBI agents involved therefore–at the very least–thought that they were witnesses to a crime (namely, lying to the FBI). You can argue that it may have been inappropriate for the FBI to NOT ask for a special prosecutor at this point, but I see no viable argument against anything that they actually did.
5. A special prosecutor was appointed. He went on to successfully prosecute Libby for four felonies. Once again, it’s right there in the name: A prosecutor prosecutes people. That’s his job. He can be rightly criticized if he fails to prosecute someone when you think he should have, or if he prosecutes someone poorly and a guilty person gets off, but I can’t see any legitimate critique of a prosecutor who prosecutes someone who is clearly guilty and wins four felony convictions.
So if you follow the story line, the ONLY people who didn’t do their jobs appropriately are Armitage, Libby, and Rove. If those three had all done what they were supposed to have done, then we probably wouldn’t be where we’re at right now. But to say that the FBI or Team Fitz didn’t do the right thing is just pure hogwash.
Mandrake @ 29 Actually, ordering unsweetened tea in No. Ga gets you accused of being a yankee. My older brother was visiting from Houston and rather than defend me, he was actually explaining that he was a southerner at heart. We both grew up in Lieberman’s wife’s hometown of Gardner, Mass.
Totally wankeriffic photo you served up there. Is Wolfowitz dancing the the Mrs. Thompsons just outside the frame?
OT: Just got back from the bookstore. When the clerk started to bag my items, I said, “I don’t use plastic bags. Al Gore won’t let me.” The clerk got an odd expression on his face, then he said, “You’re the second person to say those same words to me in the past 30 minutes. Weird.”
Carl Nyberg @ 6
yes, I can’t find the returns is that Webb lost the 9th congressional district (Southwest Virginia). Webb won because of a landslide victory in Nothern Virginia, especially the inside the beltway precincts.
JPL,
You mean the Furniture City?
-GSD
Dammit. Does this mean I have to remove the “I support John Edwards for President” box on my facebook page?
I support Edwards because of his wife. He was smart enough to marry her… and she chose him. Speaks volumes to me.
But, I hope she reads your post, Jane and then raises holy hell.
darkblack @ 38
I’m gonna print that out. Right on, man.
JPL @ 45
My mother in law and her sister (Georgia Girls) were out eating with us when they ordered sweet tea. It came with no sugar. They asked the waitress to get some sweet tea. She came back 10 minutes later, agains they said it had no sugar. The waitress said I put a packet of sugar in each glass, you don’t know what you are talking about, in a rude tone.
The manager overheard the waitress, and fired her. The wife and I refer to it as the Sweet Tea incident of Ought five.
p.lukasiak @ 27
Yes you did rile him up, didn’t you?
selise @ 34
He says he’s an unpaid adviser.
p.lukasiak @ 27
That’s it. That tears it. Even a good ol’ boy should know better than to put that stick in a hornet’s nest like that.
Unless he’s got his head so far up his backside he’s suffering from hypoxia-induced brain damage.
Okay, Mudcate says:
I see now from re-reading his post that this was only his third blog post. The guy has no clue what he is doing. I bet he doesn’t even read blogs. “Witless”?? Mr. Mudcat, may I introduce you to the FDL gang, whose writers AND commentors are some of the most well-informed and snarkily funny group of people whose stuff I have ever had the pleasure of reading.
This dewd is clueless. A self-described redneck trashing “elitists” while defending Joe Klein!! Edwards does NOT need this dude representing him in the blogosphere and apparently Edwards’ camp is a bit tone deaf on the blog scene. They need to kick him out and get with the program.
Hope Edwards will accept your invite, Jane.
Kay in Maine,
I have found that most, most Republicans and rightwingers like to attack, to change the subject, or to crow about their success.
They rarely want to discuss things.
They especially don’t want to defend the horriffic record of Bush. So they stop talking.
-GSD
p.lukasiak @ 27
Ughh he’s an ugly guy. There are stereotypes of the south of course. But it doesn’t due for someone like Muddcat to accuse everyone who addresses racisim, past and present in the South to be called a muckraker and a regionalist. I am 100% sure what I and many others experienced in the South is 100% real, and genuinely causes a lot of hurt and sometimes real fear. Or at least a nawing anxiety. There has to be debate over that, our experiences, our perceptions. Genuine debate goodness, because red-state mentality is partly what got this country into a hole in the first place.
If it’s any consolation I read in Al Gore’s book that early progressives like Upton Sinclair were called “muckrakers.”
p.lukasiak @ 27
…and the SOB had the nerve to insult MY MOTHER!!!
gee Paul, I can’t believe you’d just let that sli.. – oh -I see you didn’t. The “ince*t belt”? LOL.
jayackroyd @ 54
thank you. now i understand. i guess, in this case, edwards got what he paid for. :(
selise @ 34
To mangle an old Ann Richards quote…He was born on the third turn of the final lap at Darlington and thinks he came from 50th to take the checkered flag.
;>)
Re: Bob @ 30 -
BTW, when I try to quote a comment (or refresh comments), all I get is the never-ending “Circle of Doom.” I’m on IE7.
For the past 4? days or so, that has often meant that a new thread is up top. That can prompt a race to the elusive Zed. But if you don’t care about that, just do a hard page reload.
No, it happens every time. When I did the last comment I had to hard-refresh; in fact, that’s the only way I can get to the new comments.
Rayne @ 43
I’ve heard that somewhere before.
I am disappointed in the Mudcat Mess, especially since Edwards is at or near the top of my list among the current candidates.
Based on recent history, Edwards does pay attention on this, but he does not act quickly. We should let the Edwards campaign know how we feel.
Bob in HI
JoeKliensConscience -
Left you a comment deep in EPUville back on Jane’s post two threads downstairs replying to your Gore question, fwiw. :~)
When it comes to cartoon southerners, I’ll stick with Deputy Dawg, Muskie, and Vincent Van Gopher. They seem a lot more authentic.
trifecta @ 52
I love that story!
Some of the newer, metro type restaurants here in Greenville do not serve sweetened tea so you gotta either use the fake stuff or dump 5 packs of sugar into your tea.
Ya’ see, Mudcat, you just can NOT stop elitist progress, even in Bob Jonesville.
Fire Mudcat, rehire Marcotte. Nuff said.
GSD, The former furniture city of Gardner (preview should be my friend but alas it’s not). Jack came to my hometown and Teddy spoke at my highschool I think in 1966. My southern house has furniture from Heywood Wakefield and Bent Brothers. My liberal roots run deep.
How much is Karl Rove paying Mudcat Saunders to concern-troll the Edwards campaign to death?
-GSD
Mandrake. We are near neighbors. I am up in Asheville.
Rayne @ 55
p.lukasiak: What a great response you had in the comments. A textbook example of the word “Smackdown.”
Reading more or Mudcrap’s scribbles, and you start getting the feeling it’s an act. He trots out so many stereotypes it’s silly.
bonkers @ 51
That’s right he does sound like he is trying to define a status quo, the Alpha Common Man. And his version sucks. It’s narrow.
Pudslap Saunders.
-GSD
Jacqrat @ 50
Me, too! I love her, totally love her. I just love to hear her talk. About anything. I was comforted to know she played such an integral role in his campaign so perhaps she will will take note of this. This Mudcat person doesn’t understand the progressive blogosphere nor does he have any concept of its power.
Yes, if you like opera, or classical music, or jazz or go to a coffee house or wear birkenstocks you aren’t authentically American for these dipshits.
Bite me Bumslap.
-GSD
Mandrake @ 66
That’s a pretty lame reason to fire someone.
trifecta @ 70
Oh, I love to visit Asheville and just knock around! Going from Greenville to Asheville is like going from one end of the cultural spectrum to the other! It’s such a “trip” trip!
I find this Mudcat business distressing and unappealing of Edwards.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 79
Me two. I’m disgusted. And I need to eat.
Shit. I like opera and NASCAR. Goddamn, Mudcat, ya got me all dizzy!
mui @ 72
Well, the problem is that it’s downright frikkin insulting to progressive Southerners who, like Christy talked about in an earlier post, you just can’t pigeonhole that easily. We don’t need more Rove-think, especially in Dem camps.
dakine01 @ 3
And putting phone tracers on both Marcotte’s and McEwan’s phones to catch the goons who phoned death threats to them.
Luzianne or Lipton? Either way the sugar must be mixed in while hot…
De-lurk Mrs. Edwards, I know you are out there. *s*
p.lukasiak @ 27
Whoa…and I was admiring the comment you left there this am!
But this is the sentence that convinced me that he really doesn’t get it:
“I know few Southern white people who don’t have a great black friend and visa versus.”
As another swampland commenter asked: what century is this guy living in?
jayackroyd @ 54
And clearly worth every penny…
Eureka Springs @ 83
Y’know, she did visit the blog once a while back, didn’t she?
trifecta @ 52
Drive by …
Sweet tea?
Reminds me of the song by Billy Currington
Or the album by Buddy Guy
Jane Hamsher @ 53
who? sweet little ol’ me? Rile someone up? I just can’t imagine!
The best way to do it is to make simple syrup. Boil 3 parts sugar to two parts water until the sugar dissolves. Add it to the tea to taste. But I digress.
Carl Nyberg @ 6
As both Amanda and Melissa have stated, they left in very large part due to attacks by right-wing nutbars not against them, but against their family members.
If Edwards does talk them into coming back, phone taps need to go onto their phones so they can nail the sickos who were calling them.
Yup and yup. There’s a bunch of white-flight people around Falls Church and environs, but they’re slowly getting squeezed out or resigning themselves to brown and black people.
Woodhall Hollow @ 84
What a clean attempt at a well spoken quote.
;>)
I can see absolutely NO reason to defend JokeLine.
Treasonous Bastard.
>> Mandrake @ 29 Actually, ordering
>> unsweetened tea in No. Ga gets you accused
>> of being a yankee. My older brother was
>> visiting from Houston and rather than defend
>> me, he was actually explaining that he was
>> a southerner at heart. We both grew up in
>> Lieberman’s wife’s hometown of Garner, Mass.
> My mother in law and her sister (Georgia
> Girls) were out eating with us when they
> ordered sweet tea. It came with no sugar.
> They asked the waitress to get some sweet
> tea. She came back 10 minutes later, agains
> they said it had no sugar. The waitress said
> I put a packet of sugar in each glass, you
> don’t know what you are talking about, in a
> rude tone.
Here’s the thing: when I lived in BigCity (in the very early days of espresso mania no less) I used to talk to tourists from other places, including rural areas and other countries (many from Japan) all the time. If they asked me “where can I get {my culturally preferred food}?” I would respond something along the lines of “In this city people actually prepare that food differently – we {engage in bizarre food preparation ritual} here. If you want to try it that way you can go to restaurant A, B, C, or D. But if you are really hungry for that food prepared your home way you will have to go to {ethnic neighborhood X}; I can give you instructions on how to get there if you like”.
See how that works? No one is offended, no one is ‘talked down to’, seldom do people not get a good or at least interesting food.
Yet the Saunders-type people /never fail to bring up/ this business about sweet tea. Is it really so hard to say “I warn you honey – tea is sweetened down here in {this region}. You might want to order a club soda from the bar”? Is it really that hard to acknowledge and deal with differences politely? Sheesh, I think of the waiters in downtown Brussels restaurants dealing with people from 75 different cultures and languages including obnoxious tourists of all nationalities yet as long as I was polite and tried a bit they were always helpful. But somehow these “Mudcats” can’t seem to muster that much tolerance?
Would love to understand their justification for that one.
Cranky
Kuwait says the U.s. can not use air bases to attack Iran.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20…..0611114256
….still waiting for someone to notice the irony of calling someone an SOB for insulting my mom…
Perhaps there are forces at work in this Mudcat episode which we would not readily suspect.
Carl Nyberg @ 6
Yes and yes. To be fair, he does have some claim to fame about Warner’s victory, when the population was less skewed toward NoVa, but that just points to the increasing irrelevancy of his view that it’s so important to appeal to rural voters that okay to piss off urban and suburban voters in the process.
I like my tea unsweetened … but when I do sweeten it, it takes four or five packets to get it decently sweet. (Doesn’t matter if it’s the real thing or not.)
(Dang, I gotta find a real DQ someplace. I sure need a Dude ….)
Maydaze, you can uninstall IE7 and put back IE6. It’s a pain, and you may have to reinstall other stuff, but I did it the other night. I was tired of it b*tching about certificates and giving me error messages.
p.lukasiak @ 96
I noticed it, but was trying avoid commenting today. :P I really should be working more.
Mandrake @ 78
Im up near Asheville too. 45 minutes away. From miserable TN, Asheville is like a trip abroad.
One thing these consultants need to understand is that the progressive blogosphere can smell Beltway Bulls*t from the other side of the moon and disseminate it amongst its own for dissection and critique faster than my grandma could whip off a pair of stockings on a hot August day.
The Edwards Camp doesn’t understand blogging.
Who’s his campaign manager? These guys have basic messaging issues.
I see now from re-reading his post that this was only his third blog post. The guy has no clue what he is doing. I bet he doesn’t even read blogs. “Witless”?? Mr. Mudcat, may I introduce you to the FDL gang, whose writers AND commentors are some of the most well-informed and snarkily funny group of people whose stuff I have ever had the pleasure of reading.
This dewd is clueless. A self-described redneck trashing “elitists” while defending Joe Klein!! Edwards does NOT need this dude representing him in the blogosphere and apparently Edwards’ camp is a bit tone deaf on the blog scene. They need to kick him out and get with the program.
Yes to all of this, and could it be that Time hired him to be exactly this clueless and alienating to the netroots so that Edwards doesn’t get the nomination so that Hillary or Obama get the nomination–and then lose. Their hope: our tragedy.
On the other hand: Lieberman supports Barack and Carville flacks for Hillary, and few hold it against them.
Mr. Edwards. Now is your chance to stand tall. To be a cut above the rest. Or not.
The GOP must be relishing this Mudcat deal.
Oh jeepers, it gets worse. Trippi may have given him a time-out, but Mudcat needed a spanking and grounding.
Trippi, you’re on the hot seat now, too. That was one of the most ineffectual things I’ve seen you do — and I’m a Deaniac, don’t go there.
trifecta @ 89
Hi, I make my own tea at work with 1 bag of Lipton and some sugar disolved with hot water from the coffee maker tap. I let it sit for a while, then add water to the slightly syrupy mixture and pour it over a huge glass of ice. I like my sweet tea only slightly sweet, like my Mommer makes it. I digress also. But sweet tea is the one thing I have not been able to live without.
snowbird42 @ 101
Ashville is a trip. It is like someone carved out a little section of Santa Fe and dropped right into the middle of the Bible Belt (I read somewhere that Buncome County had the largest number of Baptist Churches per capita in the entire country. My Great-Grandfather founded one of them!).
kathleen @ 95
Up next on CNBC, Kudlow is gonna talk about what whether it is a good idea to attack Iran. I wonder what the cokehead will say.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 35
The main reason I see is that because elections are so expensive nowadays (it generally costs $3 million to wage a winning Congressional campaign in an average CD, and $10-$15 million to win a Senate seat in even a rural state), Dems like Emanuel think that the only way the Dems can win is to suck up to the same corporations – using the same arguments – that Republicans use. And since corporate America and the Democratic base are at odds, the base gets screwed. (And really, congresscritters spend a lot of their time holding fundraisers simply because they have no other choice. Those TV and radio ads cost money.)
The best way to fight that? Clean Elections, of the sort that are sweeping the nation at the state and local level thanks to http://www.PublicCampaign.org. Lower the money factor down to a manageable level, and there’s less percieved need to sell out just to survive.
Hmm. I am obviously too northern and too Asian to partake of sweet tea; I prefer mine with a splash of vanilla soy milk in evening (Stash Black Chai and green tea combo) or unsweet over ice on any summer day (green jasmine or black vanilla).
Must make me one of those Metro-Opera loving freaks, hmm?
Public financing is the way to go.
Woodhall Hollow @ 109
Good grief! I could have sworn Greenville County had the most Baptist churches! We have one on just about every corner.
There is a Baptist church on the corner up the street from where I work. One of those that has a marquis with little sayings on them that they change every week. One time it said: “God or Allah. Only one can save.” Some kinda BS like that.
Well, and I wish I could attach a picture but I can’t, right on the corner of the lot of this Baptist church is a sign that says something to the effect of: “Allow Guns in Schools; Vote Republican”
Which is worse, for Saunders to work for Edwards,
or Carville to – ok, not work for, but be associated with – Sen. Clinton?
Quite a choice.
Rayne @ 112
I personally do not discriminate on the basis of non-alcoholic beverages.
Frankly, what you described sounds yummy.
Wonder how the front runners are feeling about this Mudcat situation.
I have to admit that I’ve been loving the shitstorm
that Swampland has become.
Can’t you picture the meeting where someone said: “Hey we better get in on this blog thing. Get someone on it !”
Rayne @ 107
Yeesh. Apparently they get “talkers.” Mudcat is just being Mudcat…hehe.
Well damn, Shrub is just being Shrub and screwing up, and killing thousands in the process.
Them boys that killed Mathew Shepard. Boys will be boys!
Whoopsie-daisy!
bonkers @ 81
We need a NASCAR opera.
Jeff Gordon: The Young Male Hero (tenor)
Jeff Gordon’s wife: The Hero’s Wife/GF (soprano)
Dale Earnhardt Sr.: The Evil One Who Cheats (bass or bass-baritone)
Dick Trickle: The Hero’s Comical Sidekick (baritone)
June 4, 2007 Issue
Copyright © 2007 The American Conservative
Really interesting article about honest blogging about Israel and Jewish identity.
Mondoweiss, Chapter One
Blogging about Israel and Jewish identity raises Observer hackles.
by Philip Weiss
http://www.amconmag.com/2007/2…..ature.html
This Mudcat thing is extremely hurtful of the Edwards campaign. I would expect Edwards to quickly move to address this. This is a significant piece of his support he has managed to piss off. I know I am waiting to see an Edwards response which I hope will be to dump this guy and find someone who can think. Edwards was/is at the top of my list but I am now wavering.
Sparkles the Iguana @ 13
You think that’s bad, take a look at all the other pix on the page it came from. Those folks scare me and I’m fearless. Looks more like a Halloween party at the Addams Family abode to me.
Off-topic, but important.
Want to point out to you folks that while Mudcat is busy badmouthing us, races are beginning to heat up in your own backyards. I had a 3-hour meeting on strategy and candidate development last night, another followup meeting tonight. We are already back to work and hard to win state and federal seats.
All politics are local, and Mudcat is only considered an expert at rural campaigning because local activists were not as developed and ready as they needed to be…and that’s when campaigns bring in dorks like Mudcat, to tell you what to do.
Do you really want Mudcat telling you all how to run a campaign in your backyard? Do you have a strategy right now to ID voters that didn’t vote last time, a strategy for GOTV for new and existing voters, a strategy for local opposition research and local campaign and issue blogging? Don’t wait for this now-proven cad Mudcat to come and tell you what to do. Get to work and take pleasure in telling him to piss off when he shows up in your backyard.
Make Mudcat more irrelevant than he already is — especially if you’re in the south. Check the community events at DNC’s website, check Meetup.com, DFALink.com, Craig’s List, local party and see where you can plug in to help right now.
NASCAR = 4 left turns
Sorry, can’t hang. I’m a Metro Formula One elitist.
Does anyone else perceive the idea of Time Mag having blogs as rather analagous to pictures of Nixon walking the beach in his wing-tips with his tie up and tight and his sleeves rolled up?
Just. does. not. compute.
I think Mudcat was auditioning for a job with the Clinton campaign when he gave that quote to the Roanoke Herald.
It is very useful for Edwards to have a consultant inside of the TimeWarner establishment, just as it is useful for Clinton to have Carville inside the TimeWarner establishment. Not good journalism, but helps in winning campaigns.
Democrats in SouthWest Virginia think a lot of Mudcat, I don’t, if for no other reason than this truly grotesque Webb flier he masterminded. But I understand why Edwards hired him.
Ok, I finally made myself read the first Mudcat post. As a southern sweet-tea drinkin librul progressive clean FH I just want to say Mudcat gets what he deserves for Joke Line hugging and generalized left blog bashing.
Time to move up to a mint julep..
If Mudcat wants to emulate Carville and Klein in one fell swoop while claiming he’s bashing elites of any kind, well, I am just glad he exposed his true nature to the blogos so quickly. Cut him off, Edwards, we don’t need a new DLC.
Sounds like WMD’s all over again.
AP – A senior U.S. diplomat accused Iran on Tuesday of transferring weapons to Taliban insurgents in Afghanistan — the most direct comments yet on the issue by a ranking American official.
Phoenix Woman @ 120
hehe! It could be based on Bizet’s “Carmen” Only we’ll call it…CarMen, Start Your Engines.
The DLC could pass for the RLC.
Tim @ 118
Yes, yes. Absolutely!
“We’ll get this Mudcat character to do a blog! He’s just such a hoot!”
“But he’s not a blogger.”
“Aw hell, anybody can do it! And he’s just such a hoot, such a character! I bet he’ll go over big!”
“Great, get on the phone to Time, pronto!”
Rayne, Dean/Trippi knew what the hell they were doing. It’s funny that after 4 years, these other camps just can’t get it right.
Here’s how to contact the Edwards campaign.
dakine01 @ 126
Prolife Rudy Giuliani.
Republican Environmental Advocacy Organization.
Project for a New American Century.
Time Magazine Blog.
What’s your problem?
Everyday my party (Dems) seems to dig its hole a little deeper.
“Too many people holding back, this is crazy, and baby it’s not like me.”
Too Many People – Paul McCartney
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFddsWq2pDw
PJ @ 99:
Maydaze, you can uninstall IE7 and put back IE6. It’s a pain, and you may have to reinstall other stuff, but I did it the other night. I was tired of it b*tching about certificates and giving me error messages.
Appreciate the info. I haven’t had those problems, and don’t really want to go through the uninstall hassle. The thing is, the old version of FDL worked fine on IE7.
bonkers @ 130
Snort! And Klein says you’re “witless”!
Joke Klein has a point I don’t want tax dollars paying for Scooter’s jail time Scooter is a man of means he should pay fot it himself. How you ask by making court fines/awards proportionate to income after all where is the deterent value of a $100 speeding ticket to someone like Bill Gates? However the last time I was in traffic court in a in a well off suburban county the judge gave the speech to three differnt people about how they needed to pay their traffic fines and continued AGAIN their cases. Suggesting quite politly that they could work at MacDonalds apparently MacJob is worst than the slammer. But the point is I could pay my fine it HURT it wasn’t impossible to pay like it was for the poor folks and it wasn’t a joke like it would be for Bill Gates. If Scooter’s fine was inline with his income I’m sure the Republicans would scream Class War, because this idea is FAIR!
allan_in_upstate @ 134
Yeah, I guess you’re right. Orwell lives.
Neo-con threat to American Freedom by Paul Craig Roberts
http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts06122007.htm
Neo-cons conservative attack on Iran
http://www.ips.org/blog/jimlobe/
Will Iran be attacked before the delayed trial?
Now, why WOULD one want to link Islam to suicide?:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..161454/818
Alice @ 127
Why was the flyer grotesque? It sounds like Miller was a DLC Democrat. Is that true?
Media is going after Ghouliani now. Making room for their already annointed Fred Thompson, Jeb Bush, or Gingrich. I wonder where they are going with this.
Phoenix Woman @ 119
For some reason I immediately thought of that Bugs Bunny cartoon that Christy posted not too long ago…
“Kill the wabbit, kill the wabbit, kill the wabbit!!”
Civil war in Gaza and Iraq, Israel sends rockets into No. Gaza, Lieberman wants to attack Iran. Whew!
Kathleen @ 140 Are your law student friends showing up on Thursday?
From 2003:
How about telling him “you’re fired,” John? Elizabeth?
dakine01 @ 126
I love this analogy. Do such pictures exist or did you just dream this up? Either way, it’s beautiful.
Here’s what I put on the Mudcat’s blog entry comments:
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 143
If you don’t see what is wrong with that flier, I can’t explain it to you.
Oh well, let me give you a hint, Mudcat chose to portray his candidate in a brown shirt and boots.
Mandrake @ 149
I know the pictures exist but I have no clue where copies may be on the web. I think it was Life magazine that ran them.
One election when I was holding signs for Newts opponent it was not the white southerner who was paid to pelt eggs at me. Immigration issues have come a long, long ways.
dakine01 @ 152
nixon pix: 1… 2… 3…
Gosh, that Nixon had one big head.
Alice @ 127
I wonder what Swampland’s readership is?
My guess is that it’s less than FDL’s,
and half of it consists of DFHs visiting
to see what the latest outrage is.
If Clinton wanted a piece of TimeWarner,
she would aim for something higher class.
Like this.
AP – A senior U.S. diplomat accused Iran on Tuesday of transferring weapons to Taliban insurgents in Afghanistan — the most direct comments yet on the issue by a ranking American official.
The very same “cakewalk in Iraq” zealots have been all over the place(in the MSM) for the last four years repeating unsubstantiated claims about Iran’s “alleged” nuclear weapons program. Most of these unsubstantiated claims have gone unchallenged (with the exception of Chris Matthews who has consistently been challenging the zealots).
Now with the A*P*C trial(’allegedly” the classified intelligence that Franklin and others passed onto Rosen and Weissman had to do with Iran) delayed for the sixth time this would seem to only give the zealots more time to convince Americans that Iran needs to be pre-emptively hit.
We will not be singing kumbaya my lord kumbaya. We will be singing Deja fucking Vu!
We need to build on our votes in the south by talking about the way we are the same, not the way we are different, then we win.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 146
Kuwait just announced that they will not allow an attack on Iran from their bases.
That comes on the heels of Iran announcing that they have all of the regional Arab states targeted in the event of an attack.
When Larry Kudlow starts talking about war against Iran, you know that a chill wind blows.
-GSD
Meanwhile some elitist spin-doctor is pretending to have his ear to the ground in the heartland and is causing infighting among Democrats. I will call him a Southern Fried Asswipe.
Alice @ 151
Italy’s BrownShirts who worked for Benito Mussolini and beat up his political opponets kind of like we think Blackwater is going to do to us if they don’t go all SS and SA stormtrooper on Kristallnacht on us. Do I guess right Do I get a prize? Or is there some dark truth about why the UPS guy wears brown?
Is Saunders actually trying to tank Edwards and hop on board the SS Hillary?
twolf1 @ 153
Picture #1 was taken near the western white house at Cottons, a place that the surfers out there will recognize. A buddy of mine got chased out of the water by a Coast Guard Cutter!! and Marines with M-16’s while surfing there in the late 60’s. The whole episode was featured in Surfing magazine at the time. A great story!
JPL @ 147
Never said “law student friends”. Did say that they are mostly Ohio University students (one is a law student at Penn state who grew up in Athens, another is a student at Harvard studying political science who grew up in Athens, the rest are undeclared).
All of them are interested in this trial and I am going to try to convince them to come at join the firedoglakers if no one strongly objects. They have all had questions that I am not equipped to answer about the trial.
I volunteer to hold Mudcat while Amanda Marcotte knees him in the nuts three or four times…
Tim @ 125
Been There, Done That. Got the Tee Shirt.
With the success of Starbucks, the whole country must be Democrats.
OT – added to this week’s congressional hearings list;
Wednesday – 10 am
Rules and Administration
To hold hearings to examine nominations to the Federal Election Commission
Witnesses: Steven Walther, Robert Lenhard, David Mason, Hans von Spakovsky
[Hans von Spakovsky’s voter fraud background from TPM - “Voter Suppression Showdown, Round 2″]
kathleen @ 157
Why would Iran arm the Taliban? They helped us get rid of the Taliban post 9/11.
Mandrake @ 29
When I dropped my youngest off at school in Boulder colorado several summmers ago, I stopped in every Waffle House I could find along I-70 and I-64. The managers ( five of the ones I talked with ) make around $40,ooo a year with a lot of incentives.
Damn I really like the smothered hash browns, scrambled eggs with cheese, grits and cinnamon raisan toast.
Amazing how the cooks do not have anything written to look at. I always tip the cooks!
Hey, Mudcat, you screwed up. Believe me, do NOT offend (you know I wanted to say the p word)the blogosphere. You WILL get called on it.
Edwards. Distance yourself, from this consultant ASAP, whether he is paid or unpaid. Believe me again, you don’t want to be associated with someone who puts out this, oh what the hell, crap.
Personally, I am viewing candidates for the Dem nomination who have the good sense to hire the right people who are qualified to do the job. We have had enough of unqualified croneys with Bush& Co, Inc. That goes equally for the people you associate yourself with during the campaign because that is an indication of who you will choose in leadership positions when you are elected to office.
You are judged by the company you keep. As a North Carolinian, I’m pulling for you, but my final judgement is still out.
And in case anyone is interested, I detest very sweet tea. At home I make mine, one fourth cup of sugar to a gallon of tea which we drink, well by the gallon.
kathleen @ 163
should be fun.
Alice @ 151
I didn’t even notice the brown shirts thing until I read your post and went back to look. Yes, it is pretty disgusting. It seems to me that Mudcat is trying to be the new Carville. It is too bad.
LS @ 166
No no no, It’s where republicans and Muccats can go when they want to feel safe and creative.
Bob Schacht @ 64
When I discovered Mudhat’s drivel this morning, I e-mailed a couple of addresses in the Edwards’ campaign and said in no uncertain terms that they should combat this NOW.
Haven’t heard back, and don’t really care if I do. I just want ‘em to deal with this!!
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 168
Because they are responding to the US threats and the US covert operations along their border with Pakistan and the US support for Kurdish separtists.
The whole region is spilling over with arms, drugs, money, spooks, spies and intrigue.
-GSD
kathleen @ 157
We will be singing “Deja Vu All Over Again,” one of Yogi Berra’s best tunes, because we’ve “come to the fork in the road, and we’ve taken it,” to paraphrase Yogi again. There’s no turning back. The sick, hypnotized approach to nuclear war against Iran has the same odd feeling of inevitability I sense every time another DC personality pouts or shouts for Scooter.
GSD @ 175
Russian, American and Israeli defense companies so happy! Follow the $$$
Ugh. I am just so sick of this crap. ::sigh::
Shiny new thread (with an old friend) upstairs, pups.
“Mudcat” defames soil and felines. Poser.
FYI, new thread
AFP reporting the US is planning airstrikes in Somalia.
After last weeks shelling the US is getting rather involved in the Horn of Africa as of late.
More war please.
-GSD
Wonder how Senator Webbs efforts to require the Bush administation to have to come back through congress before they attack another nation that has not attacked us (Iran) is coming along?
http://webb.senate.gov/newsroo…..?id=270138
over at Times blog today, Mudcat commented that he has accepted no pay from Edwards, took none from Webb or Warner. yea, he ain’t so eloquent sometimes, but he wants Dems to win everywhere, and he feels passionately that rural folks have been screwed by the Repugs and is trying to fight back in maybe the best way he knows how. he apologized, everybody on our side of the aisle should be allowed a mistake from time to time if they own up to it and show they have learned from it. if he had to “fall on his sword” for Johnny, i think he would, he’s been with him and believing in him and his message since 2002 when he helped advise his leadership PAC.
From Gen Wesley Clark:
Lieberman’s saber rattling does nothing to help dissuade Iran from aiding Shia militias in Iraq, or trying to obtain nuclear capabilities. It’s highly irresponsible and counter- productive, and I urge him to stop.
Senator Webbs Senate Bill 759
Prohibition on use of funds for military operations in Iran.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:S.759:
Well, I don’t care much about the Sopranos, so I’ll stay here for a while.
Just looked for the John Edwards campaign on Facebook. Oh, my. Don’t those people bother to check to see if there’s a site already up before launching their very own Edwards for President group??? The real deal seems to be Edwards 2008, which has more than 3,000 members and lists John Edwards himself as one of the Officers, along with Scott Dworkin. Interestingly enough, no discussion activity on Mudcat. Maybe I’ll start one and see what happens.
Bob in HI
All roads seem to lead to Iran. And if so, then what?
OK, here’s what I posted over on the Edwards Facebook discussion board:
Bob in HI
Wonderful news!
JTA Logo Breaking News
Boost for rebuilding Palestinian homes
An anonymous Orthodox American Jew has contributed $1.5 million to a campaign that rebuilds Palestinian homes destroyed by Israel, the Jerusalem Post reported.
The Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions, which made the announcement Monday, said it plans to rebuild 300 Palestinian homes after their expected destruction by governmental agencies.
Committee Director-General Jeff Halper disputed the government’s claims that the homes need to be destroyed because they were illegally constructed or posed security risks.
Halper said Israeli policies are biased against Palestinians, so it is difficult for them to obtain the necessary permits.
“This is really part of a continuing policy of displacement and dispossession” of Palestinians, he told the Post, declining to name the U.S. donor funding the organization, which only has rebuilt about 35 homes in the last 10 years.
radiofreewill @ 103
Well, Joe Trippi should understand.
Bob in HI
The Americans Have Landed
A few years ago, with little fanfare, the United States opened a base in the horn of Africa to kill or capture Al Qaeda fighters. By 2012, the Pentagon will have two dozen such forts. The story of Africa Command, the American military’s new frontier outpost.
http://www.esquire.com/features/africacommand0707
lauren @ 104
A-a-ack!!! Is that true? If so, no major campaign is idiot-proof. I may yet vote for Dodd!
John & Elizabeth Edwards are the right people, but they don’t seem to know how to put a good staff together. Or maybe they have to work with Obama and Hillary leftovers who aren’t holding out for Al?
Bob in HI
Mandrake @ 114
After reading Mudcat’s screed and watching that ridiculous commercial with Trippi on YouTube, I finally understand why the Edwards campaign has been struggling so much. He needs to fire these losers and just get Elizabeth to run the campaign for him.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 129
“Weapons”?? Is that all they got? Well of course. Iran is very likely arming the Taliban with “weapons” against a foreign army of occupation, just like we once supplied the Taliban with “weapons” when the occupying army was the Russians. Only the weapons we were supplying were shoulder-fired anti-helicopter missiles, which were a major factor in the Russian defeat.
Get serious. If “weapons” is the best card in your hand, its best to fold rather than bid.
Bob in HI
I hope that Edwards doesn’t listen to this bulldada…if so HE might be swayed to pardon Libby.
How an Edwards advisor can push such defecated talking points is beyond me.
Libby wasn’t tried for perjury for not telling the truth about WHICH reporters he reveled Plame’s CIA employmnt to…he was tried for perjury for denying that he spoke about it to ANY REPORTERS. He also lied about the operative date in which he “knew” (or knew and “forgot”) the information he received about Plame.
He also effectively shut off any investigation about what he told other staffmembers and the facts of his conversations with Cheney. Quite simply Fitz caught him in perjury and obstruction of justice in these areas…which raises doubts about the veracity of his other statements.
It also points very directly to the question of “motive”…why did he lie to coverup his…and consequently CHENEY’s…role in obtaining Plame’s career background?
It’s truly sad when a member of the Edward’s campaign suggests that he finds no problem in the exposure of covert CIA officers employment in WMD operations in a manner that would expose her sources, blow her cover, and shut-down her operations. Perhaps he also agrees with the use of systematic leaks to the media to vilify ones opponents…rather than forthrightly answer the issues those critics have raised?
Is this an indicator of how the Edwards WH staff will be run? I was hoping for something better.
Candy Crowley is gushing away that Romney is in the lead in the Repub polls. I wonder what percentage of voters the potential Republican voters really represent in relation to the total American voters anymore?? They are acting and talking as if they are on the same footing as the Democrats. They continue to behave as if they have the majority in Congress too. I just don’t believe any of what is being reported. I believe Gore won in 2,000 and Kerry won in 2004. We have to be really vigilant about voter fraud big time.
Have some friends that visited Kenya last year and they said the coast was swarming with U.S. military (out of uniform).
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 168
Welcome to Middle Eastern Politics 402.
* We armed the Taliban with shoulder-fired rockets against the Russians umpteen years ago, contributing to the Russian’s ultimate defeat.
* After 9/11, we attacked the Taliban and drove them out of Kabul. Iran helped us in this endeavor because the Taliban were making trouble along their long border with Iran.
* Now we (and NATO) are the occupying power in Afghanistan, so Iran supports the Taliban against us.
Moral of the story: On all of its borders, Iran prefers weak neighbors who will leave it alone. It doesn’t matter who runs the government, as long as they’re weak. It does matter if they’re strong. Failed states on its borders are just perfect, thank you very much.
Bob in HI
dakine01 @ 126
Or Trick Dick waving peace-signs and sacking “Sock it TO MEEE!” on Rowan and Martin’s Laugh-In!
How cool…how hip!
Rayne @ 112
Me too. I like my tea sent directly from Taiwan. Taiwan tea is the best. They have fresh tea straight off family farms in the mountains around Taipei. It’s considered an insult to put milk and sugar in it. It is so strong and tasty it is practically a liquor.
Late to the thread, but I had to add my 2 cents, in the hope that the Edwards camp will be reading.
I am not a Southerner, tho I live in the South. Stereotyping anyone in the South is getting into really dangerous turf, imo. You’re bound to look like a fool.
I remember when John Dean said something to the effect “we want to be the party of the guys with the pickup trucks that have a confederate flag in the back window”. Yeah, not exact quote, but that was the essence I remember.
I am sorry to day, for all of you Deaniacs out there, at that point, I wrote off John Dean. What a totally clueless comment. Guaranteed to offend someone, and win over no one.
And, re: Waffle House. I like my iced tea there “half and half”. I say that, and the “wait person” knows exactly what I mean.
I do not believe ‘MudCat’ has the balls to show up here. But…
If he does do so Jane.
I will be waiting.
No profanity, no ad hominem, no lies, no spin…
Just cold hard facts for Mr. ‘MudCat’.
jayackroyd @ 54
Edwards isn’t getting his money’s worth.
If Mudcat is/was a Clinton supporter he’s obviously not to be trusted and must be canned immediately, if not sooner.
trifecta @ 71
Asheville is a nice little maze. How the heck do you people find your way around that place?
Dearest Valley girl,
It wasn’t John Dean but Howard Dean who said such:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOL…..rate.flag/
I’m thinking John Dean wouldn’t give two shits to a holler ’bout that no ‘count bidness. ;-)
Hilde with an E @ 206
omg! I don’t know what I was thinking/ typing.
Of course I meant Howard Dean. I have no idea why I typed John Dean (mea culpa) except that I had lost power 3 times…. GA storm was arriving….
Howard Dean quote
“I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks,”
…..makes it apparent that Dean has a rather stereotypical view of the average Southerner….
Maybe fire pups should offer their ahem significant resources to assist the Edwards campaign. Ya know a few of the right people could make a big difference over there. It appears staffing is a recurring problem and blogging is strangely new to them too.
They couldn’t do any worse than currently, right?
As for reconsidering other candidates, I haven’t discounted any yet. I just favor Gore and Edwards the most right now. Too many missteps and I’m right on to another candidate.
Has the John Edwards campaign reacted to Saunders two pieces on Swampland yet?
Is Saunders really a consultant for Edwards? Or is he a plant intent on destroying support for Edwards?
I notice that many of the comments on the blog mentioned that there would be no more money and support going to Edwards as long as this guy keeps insulting the people who faithfully pull the lever for a Democratic President every election cycle.
I sent an e-mail to Edwards linking to both Saunders’ columns in Swampland, informing him that I’ll stop giving money to his campaign as long as the Edwards campaign does not apologize for Saunders’ totally uncalled-for vitriol.
Hilde with an E @ 206
Oh, and thanks for the CNN.com link, which I just read. It is more complete than the link to the Dean quote that I posted above.
This is ridiculous. Mudcat specified certain bloggers, not all liberal bloggers. The overwhelming wrong response to this certainly justifies his original comment.
I am sorry to be so late to the party – but who is Mudcat? I will write the Edwards campaign – but I am not sure that referring to ‘Mudcat’ is the best reference. (-:
Valley Girl @ 208
No. He was specifically addressing a demographic that used to be Dixiecrat and has gone Republican. Think Sam Nunn back in the day and the folks who would have voted him in office; that segment has gone Republican and against their own best interests in doing so.
Kind of like what we in Michigan refer to as “Reagan Democrats” — union workers who had good jobs and increasingly voted single issues like God, Guns and Gays, but are now without jobs and without hope of finding manufacturing jobs anywhere else in the U.S. In Michigan that demographic — the Chevy pickup loaded with a deer carcass in November — will more readily swing Dem. In the south, that demographic is more reluctant to swing left, and Dean understood that it was going to take more work to make that shift happen.
Devil’s Advocate @ 210
Yes.
Looking at what he does (as opposed to what he says about what he does) Mudcat destroys the Edwards campaign from the inside.
He alienates the blogosphere and – in the same act – forces Edwards to pick sides in “Southern” vs. “Modern/(modem).”
Fifth column work.
OK – Campaigns can’t “fire” their followers.
From a forest defense “basecamp” perspective, I feel their pain.
Ever spent your morning talking to the California State Park Ranger about the health problem at your group campsite?
Because of two assholes in your group….
And the two “salt of the earth” types they exited.
Our two guests were washing their hairy fetid asses in the public sinks at the campground.
Every morning.
In the public bathrooms right across from the Rangers’ station.
While we EarthFirst!er’s depended on the group campsite there for our logistics.
Our “colorful guests” wrecked our relations with California State Parks – a vital ally – for years.
Our two guests – when confronted – grudgingly ageed to stop and pulled the “rural culture” shtick at the same time.
We were oppressing them – a city vs local thing.
Yeah. We were so oppressing them.
“Don’t wash shit out of your ass hairs in the sinks where dozens of activists brush their teeth each morning”
Such oppression.
Our two “guests” claimed to live in some tiny fucking hamlet. Real EF! forest defenders from that hamlet showed up – they’d never seen the asshole washers.
We were punked by two assholes.
Edwards got punked by mudcat.
mudcat drove a wedge between the blogosphere and the Dem candidate with the most progressive economic policies and values.
qui bono?
Edwards got punked by one asshole.
Hey Edwards staffers – read The Hunt For Karla
Find your moles.
Paranoid?
Infiltrator John Glass arrived at our muddy, post-campaign, breaking-up 1997 Headwaters basecamp for a peaceful campaign against one corporation – Pacific Lumber.
Edwards’ campaign confronts whole industries – whole wedges of the megacorp pie.
Edwards staffers:
Keep your friends.
Follow the failures.
Don’t give them resources.
Don’t give them access.
Don’t PUT THEM ON YOUR FUCKING MEDIA TEAM.
ahem.
Our tradecraft bankrupted Hurwitz’s timber grab.
Your tradecraft can bankrupt Hillary’s power grab.
Find it.
Read LeCarre.
And quit letting mudcat wash his hairy fetid ass in the Senator’s sink.
Or at least have the Senator shut the bathroom door.
Rayne @ 214
Rayne, I can’t remember ever before having disagreed with a comment you have made here.
But on this one, I have to do so. And strongly. “He was specifically addressing a demographic that used to be Dixiecrat and has gone Republican.”
Exactly how was he specifically addressing a demographic? Although he may wished that his words were heard only by that “demographic”, trust me, I am not part of that demographic, but I was listening. As someone outside the “demographic”. As, I’m sure many others were, in these internet days. If you have not lived in the South, you have no idea that “Reagan Democrats” and “guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks” is NOT in any way equivalent in terms of words or perception.
hello blessed mods-
i so love the apostrophe that – well – they jump out.
if y’all ‘d be gud’nuf ta fix:
“While we EarthFirst!er’s depended on the group campsite there for our logistics.”
by changing to:
“While we EarthFirst!ers depended on the group campsite there for our logistics.”
I’d be ‘head o’er heels’
love
kirk
Valley Girl @ 216
VG, we may have to agree to disagree — but the link provided upthread was to an article that pulled out only bits and pieces from one event at which Dean spoke, and not a transcript of what he said in its entirety, nor what he said on multiple occasions that fleshed out his point. I’ve heard him speak in conference calls about this topic.
I’ll agree that the framing wasn’t the most elegant, but the words conjure up a specific demographic — white male voter who feels strongly about his southern heritage but also feels threatened because of what they are repeatedly told are threats to their culture (fed by religious/political folks like Ralph Reed and others of his ilk), but who are desperately in need of real protections for their jobs, their family farms, their health, their social safety net not provided by the Republicans who encourage their continued fear.
If Democrats ignore this segment courting only the African-American and Hispanic vote in the south, they run the risk of increasing the divisions and driving the at-risk white male demographic further towards the right. This is dangerous because it is the same demographic that may have played a role in the lock-down of the party apparatus in the south (Sara at The Next Hurrah wrote about it, mentioned that in one state Dean had to sue to get charter-type paperwork out of a file cabinet that had been locked up for years, preventing the party from full operation in that state).
“Mudcat” must be Southern for “imbecile”.
Rayne, Thanks for the reply.
I do not doubt Dean’s good intentions.
But, candidates have to be very careful and savvy about things they say that are “quoteable” on the internet, and may lead to huge misperceptions.
Most people, even the internet savvy, will not know about the full speech that Dean gave, and will not have heard him on conference calls.
Your comments about alienating this segment I can agree with. But, whatever the nuances of what Dean said, framing the reality in this way was not politically astute.
If a candidate doesn’t get it that the words they use are just as likely, or more likely, to insult those who don’t like the stereotyping of Southerners, and that those words are not actually reaching/ impacting the demographic they were trying to reach, then they need to learn a bit more about the South. Any candidate who trots out Southern stereotypes, for whatever reason, needs to get whacked upside the head.
Valley Girl @ 220
Oh, I hear you; it’s just as challenging to approach different segments of the African-American community, particularly since most white Americans do not understand how subcultures within this minority subculture work. But there were a lot of white male southerners who undoubtedly heard Dean’s remarks and said, Damn, that could be me…and nobody has made any effort to reach out to them, especially when we know their party apparatus has been completely under lock and key.
What is missing here is better local effort, as I know I’ve said up thread; I don’t think much of Mudcat Saunders’ ability to help bridge the deficiency, since he deliberately told a portion of the Democratic constituency to go to hell. If local folks were able to organize more effectively, canvass and ID voters more thoroughly along with better GOTV, there would be no need for Saunders at all. Dean at least understands that all politics are local, having committed to sending state organizers to work in the field as part of the 50-State Strategy. If there is progress at the local level, I don’t think you’ll hear Dean say another thing about the subject demographic. They’ll simply be Democratic voters. (And it’s the same all over — we have the same issues here, only different faces behind key dropout demographics. I can point to one municipality of 7000 people that failed to turn out to vote, of which a majority are a single racial group; we lost a key seat because they didn’t show up to vote for their best interests, but they’d been ignored repeatedly and the polls revealed how badly.) Granted, Saunders is promoting a single campaign, but the campaign will not make ground in this region if the basics underpinning the entire party are not met.
This is the blogosphere clutching pearls. It’s kinda pathetic. Is forcing John into more self abnegation really such a good idea? He was attacked for campaigning with Danny Glover the other day. Have you all gone fucking mad?
Both his employment of Mudcat Saunders and his campaigning with Danny Glover are worthy of criticism, as far as I’m concerned. It shows me just what an incoherent mess his campaign is. He has no real vision, and is grabbing for straws in the wind.
Devil’s Advocate @ 210
I guess we’re all just going to keep forming circular firing squads while the Republicans keep on laughing.