There are a lot of candidate debate forums this time around in the Democratic primary season. It’s got to make it harder for the campaigns to calculate (not to say triangulate) all the moving parts to come up with their sums telling them which ones to attend:
MIAMI — Democratic front-runner Hillary Clinton is going to turn down the Univision TV network’s invitation to participate in what would be the first presidential debates to be conducted in Spanish, while the other major candidates are undecided.
Only the two Democratic contenders fluent in Spanish, Gov. Bill Richardson of New Mexico and Sen. Chris Dodd of Connecticut, committed Wednesday to coming to the University of Miami for the debates.
The rest are checking their schedules, except for Rep. Tom Tancredo, R-Colo., an also-ran who made headlines last year by belittling Miami as a “third-world country.”
“I can say with 100 percent certainty that we will not be attending,” Tancredo spokesman Alan Moore said.
The candidates’ decisions will be closely observed at a time when Latinos make up the fastest-growing voting bloc and proposed immigration reforms are roiling the nation.
[snip]
Univision reaches more viewers than CNN and MSNBC, which have showed debates. Latino political strategist Joe Garcia, chairman of the Miami-Dade Democratic Party, said: “You don’t turn down NBC, CBS, or ABC, and you don’t turn down Univision.”
But Clinton spokesman Mo Elleithee said Wednesday the candidate plans to attend only the six debates sanctioned by the Democratic National Committee from July through January, when the primaries begin. Two of those debates will be simulcast by CNN in Spanish, while the two NBC-MSNBC debates will be rebroadcast in Spanish by the Telemundo network. ABC and NBC are broadcasting the other two forums.
“We encourage the Democratic National Committee and Univision to work together so that Univision will have a role in one of these debates,” Elleithee said.
I’m a little confused by the Clinton camp’s statement, since Clinton attended the Sojourners Faith & Politics Forum, which was not sanctioned by the DNC. She is also reportedly attending the NAACP debate on July 12 and the Tavis Smiley debate on June 28. Neither of these are sanctioned by the DNC.
It’s one thing to decide not to attend the Univision debate, conducted in Spanish, because you can’t, well, speak Spanish. It’s not as if people don’t know the candidates can’t speak fluent Spanish, other than Richardson (update: and Dodd). But the campaign’s stated reason for not attending insults the intelligence of everyone involved. This dog ate my homework shit just doesn’t fly.
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She also turned down a Native American event.
But the dog DID eat my homework! At least that’s what Bob Shrum told me to say, and he has the poll data to back it up.
Proud to announce the winner of the public punditry contest:
http://freewayblogger.blogspot…..walls.html
we need more like him.
I have a question. Would it be disrepsectful for someone like Hillary(who can’t speak Spanish very well) to show up with a translator? Wouldn’t showing up count for something? Can anyone fill me in here?
Hi. Just wanted to say hi. Have nothing to contribute on this particular matter. I suppose I could say “Hola!” instead.
eh, heh, heh, erhmmm. hoookay. sorry.
I dunno. On the one hand, other debates will be simulcast in Spanish, and while Univision has a lot of loyalty, it’s not the be all and end all.
If I invite you over to my house, and you accept my neighbor’s invitation instead, but still talk to me from over the backyard fence, well, that is talking to me, I guess.
I don’t know the details, but Univision probably knows it’s not going to get a lot of takers for a debate wholly in Spanish, but then again, they’re making a point about the importance of their audience by setting it up that way.
I don’t really blame the candidates for not accepting to debate in a second language, when political speech is so nuanced and word choices are so important, but then again, there’s no need to bullshit about the reasons not to attend.
If we’re planning to have a foreign policy in the future, I would prefer to have a president who isn’t afraid to work through a translator. This sounds like a safe, friendly domestic practice run.
Come on, candidates, your mastery of your native tongue is what’s important! Just ask George W. Bush, who is neither smarter nor dumber in his second language than he is in his first.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 4
When I first heard about this debate, the story said Univision offered translators for those candidates who do not speak Spanish. Thus, from their end, they want to encourage the candidates to appear regardless of their linguistic skills.
Will candidates like Richardson and Dodd have a bit of an advantage, because they speak Spanish? Sure. The same thing happens when candidates go and speak at the political forums held for Google employees in Silicon Valley. Those candidates who speak Tech have a leg up on those who don’t.
Of course, no matter what language you are speaking, it helps if you have something worthwhile to say.
Speaking of speaking Tech, a tech issue/question for the folks behind the scenes:
The “recent posts” box seems to have disappeared on my screen. Is this a temporary removal, to aid the techs as they deal with the hiccups in the recent upgrades, or is it a permanent change?
Peterr,
Thanks. It is obvious to me that Hillary ought to show up at the Univision debate. Unless she is back on her inevitability schtick again. I hope Obama and Edwards don’t make the same mistake she is. Of course if both Obama and Edwards do show up at the Univison debate, I am sure she’ll change her mind and show. Some leadership, huh?
The LA Times story on this from last week notes “The precise format has not been decided. But simultaneous translation would be provided to the candidates and the audience.”
In another twist on the triangulation, the LA Times says:
Does Donna Shalala’s signature (and her institution’s hosting of the event) make it harder for HRC to say no?
She’s not aligned with the DNC.
It’s that simple. Were she and Howard Dean sympatico, I’d bet she’d do every DNC-sanctioned event.
I’m displeased that she would blow off the Hispanic/Latin community in this way, since the voting block can make or break a race as much as the African-American or Native American vote can. But I’m even more displease that she is not in alignment with the DNC.
Exactly who is she in alignment with, I wonder?
She remains a candidate I cannot support in the primary, and will only vote for if she’s the Democratic nominee. Hillary’s performance so far during the primary race makes it all the more imperative that we take a veto-proof majority in the White House, with heavier weighting of proven or new grassroots-supported candidates.
And then they will want all the candidates to attend the Al Jazeera debate and everyone will have to know how to speak Arabic as you know future foriegn policy will greatly affect this large bloc of people in the world. Circus sideshows.
Shalala’s probably not the most well connected and warmly adored Clintonista, even within the group, but she sure has been horrible on labor ever since taking over the university job. I don’t think it cuts one way or the other, but that’s jusst a guess.
Ron @ 1
Wow, really….got a link. That’s interesting.
1,544 DAYZAND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Pachacutec and the Firepup Patriots:
Thanks for the information…this is truly good news. Mrs. Clinton and her aparachiks are gettin’ caught in the sunshine tryin’ ta drive wedges between Democratic constituencies…in addition, I think that the more Mrs. Clinton behaves like a front runner and tries ta keep herself outta Q&A’s and makes herself available only for photo opps, the more likely it is that no one is gunna have enough juice ta keep Al Gore outta the race. Look for Big Al’s announcement sometime in the week of the 4th of July.
KEEP THE FAITH AND SHOW ME HOW TA USE THE FDL FACEPAGE!!
I am glad the Democrats have found a way to sanction “Democracy.”
Maybe Latinos need to donate more in terms of campaign contributions in order to get the attention of their leaders. Ooops, I thought that was part of the new citizen test…the part about one dollar one vote.
Pachacutec,
One thing to add to your post. Chris Dodd, the candidate I work for, is fluent in Spanish — you can see him speaking Spanish in this video.
He has already agreed to attend the Univision debate.
Senora Clinton es una fabricante de triangulos, y – que es la palabra en espanol para “shapeshifter?”
Matt Browner Hamlin @ 16
It’s already in the post, Matt — in the second paragraph of story Pach quotes.
Give her a break – I’m sure her internal polling on the issue hasn’t turned up a consensus yet.
i’m so tired of being lied to my candidates. i expect it from the republicans. is it too much to hope the dems will be truthful?
if senator clinton doesn’t want to participate – that’s her choice. but she should tell her spokesperson to tell the truth.
bleh.
Pachacutec @ 13
Is Shalala a Mark Penn client too?
Ed*ard Teller @ 17
ET
You beat me to it. I was gonna comment that the Mrs. Clinton we see today will be a far cry from the one we see in the fall of ‘08. She morphs a little more each day. Stay tuned.
[no, I don’t speak Spanish, but I got the jist of what you said…having had 2 yrs of orthography and basic Spanish as a youth.]
OT – AP reporting (sorry no link) that Specter is going to vote no confidence.
Ed*ard Teller @ 17
¿Quizás no un cambiador de la forma sino un chupacabra?
Rayne @ 11
She’s aligned with the DLC. And perhaps she doesn’t want to get too deep into the immigration issue since most of the listening audience is Hispanic and that would be a big part of the debate, I would think. She would want to say things the Hispanic audience wants to hear, but considering the divisiveness of the immigration debate in non-Latino America, she knows the Beltway pundits would be all over anything she says like white on rice.
Anything she says that can be construed as “anmesty” will be all over the airwaves, possibly even pre-empting Paris Hilton.
Greg Palast offers another reason why I don’t trust Hillary:
Ed*ard Teller @ 17
See, I wish I could speak Spanish! Only get a few words here and there.
1. Mr. Hamlin, I imagine you already know this, but, “presuming” Mr. Dodd still has a bit of a tight campaign budget, he (and others!) can always take ad time on local spanish radio stations and newspapers. Rates are usually cheaper than the mainstream equivalents.
2. To me, the grand irony of Hillary is that she unintentionally sets back the women’s movement. By constantly “sticking her finger up in the air” she plays right into that unfortunate stereotype of how “women” just can’t make up their minds on anything…they’re just confused lil thangs!
Hillary ought to study videotape of Maxine Waters, and LEARN how to be decisive. I don’t always agree with Ms. Waters, but I never doubt her courage.
Ghostman
1,544 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Ed*ard Teller and the Firepup Patriots:
Yes indeed, I think her “advisors” have told her: “En bocas cerradas no entran moscas.”
KEEP THE FAITH BUT DO THE WORK!!
I think the network needs to clarify its format. When I heard about the Univision debate, my first reaction was, “How will that work for folks other than Richardson and Dodd?” In the sense of, will they each have a translator, or will there be a single network-supplied translator, or exactly what?
This is new territory — but good territory. The network should determine and announce its format; candidates should decide whether they’ll attend. I doubt Hillary will stay away if Obama and Edwards attend.
Side benefit: the wedgie it gives the GOP.
I will not vote for Senator Clinton in the primaries. And I am sick and tired of having the DLC and so called Demo heavy hitters trying to force Clinton upon me. Fact of the matter is, I’m sick and tired of my own party. The Democratic Party. Talk, talk talk on Demos. You can be so tedious. My party really needs a distinctive identity. Brand if you will.
The “globalists” want more H-1B visas. These allow foreigners to take engineering and scientific jobs from American scientists and Engineers. It also drives wages and benefits down for these highly technical jobs. Hillary Clinton supports exporting these jobs to Russia, India, and China.
Hillary Clinton has a wonderful solution to the shortage of Math, Engineering and Science students. Many people would suggest providing jobs, in alternative energy sources, environmental cleanups, and making people’s lives better. Employment opportunities seems one way to give students incentive to study the sciences.
But Hillary’s Solution? Make a Reality Television show. But this is only for the attractive, well-dressed students. (Sorry Geeks!)
Mandrake @ 27
I think if you pick up a Latin-based or Romance language, the rest falls into place. Spanish was much easier once I learned French, and I think I can muddle along in Italian now. (Portuguese is a lot more difficult, I must say.)
Ed*ard Teller said, “Mrs. Clinton is a fabricator of triangles, and — what is the word in Spanish for “shapeshifter”? At least that’s the literal translation; we know he’s talking about her “gifts” at triangulation.
Matt Browner Hamlin @ 17
I was going to ask about this. Who knew?
What’s the background? How did he become fluent in Spanish, being from CT and all?
Bob in HI
“The candidates’ decisions will be closely observed at a time when Latinos make up the fastest-growing voting bloc and proposed immigration reforms are roiling the nation.”
Is Hillary or any other candidates in the US running for President of Mexico? Have we annexed Mexico/Latin America or has Mexico/Latin America annexed us? Should the other media outlets that provide news such as the Korean, Indian, Polish, etc… demand the candidates to debate in their native languages or via translators as well? Or has it reached a point where people who have come to the US refuse to learn English and expect United States Citizens to learn their language instead?
this is just more gutless triangulation, by Her Royal Clintoris.
the English-Only campaign is gonna be a MAJOR sub-text in the coming campaign, as one aspect of the immigration “debate.” it’s a supremely hot-button/red-meat issue for the raqving cretins in Tom Tancredo’s Murka–which, btw, is large, angry, and vindictive, and looking for some blood to spill.
anybody who seems to be too closely tied–too sympathetic–to the aspirations of immigrants is gonna pay a heavy price in the both the SCUM and the Fucktard Echo Chamber…
the fate of the iraqis and the USer occupation is not gonna be as important in the 2008 ‘election’ as the ‘amnesty’ question…and participating in a Spanish-language debate is gonna be made to seem to be pandering to the illegals…
.
Dodd’s spanish is very impressive. He must have learned it as a child.
I have been talking to a couple of mexican Americans who have stated on more than one occasion that their family and a lot of hispanic americans in general just don’t vote for women. Both the men and the women in the family don’t vote for women. I don’t know how true it is in the hispanic community but I wonder if this does play a factor. I know clinton is doing a large outreach to hispanic voters but to miss this debate is not a snub. There is a reason for it.
What is so embarrassing is that this is a country of immigrants; with the exception of the Native Americans, we were all the heirs of people who brought another language with them. Why do we not speak more languages here? Why do we not encourage the diversity of tongue, since it also encourages the diversity of thought? Is our democracy so frail that it cannot tolerate the cultural differences our forefathers shared?
How about this solution. Train more of our kids for careers in math, science, engineering and teaching. Of all subjects.
Just off the phone with Sens. Murkowski and Stevens’ DC offices. Murkowski’s office claimed Murkowski has yet to make up her mind, Stevens’ guy says he doesn’t know how St. Ted of the North will vote (yeah, right). I emphasized the manipulation of voters’ rights issues as the worst instance of egregious conduct in the DOJ since the time of John Mitchell. I could have gone on and on, but kept it simple.
Yes indeed, I think her “advisors” have told her: “En bocas cerradas no entran moscas.”
keepin yer mouth shut keeps the flies out…
keeps whatcher thinking from flying out, too
HRC (Her Royal Clintoris) is all too well aware of that. the new bernstein book makes that point repeatedly…
.
Rayne @ 25
Es verdad! Ella es una chupacabra mala.
OK, Peeps: OT, ut we need a Levity Break!
Rayne @ 40
Dodd used the stupid “English-official-language-raise-your-hand” question to make exactly this point — that we need more language education in our nation’s schools, not less. It was a thinking person’s point of view that I found very impressive. Given our linguistic immigrant heritage, it’s odd we don’t value non-monolingualism.
Of course, many children of immigrants will tell you that their parents forbade speaking the “old language” at home so that their children could assimilate quickly as solely English-speakers. Folks then find themselves isolated from their own grandparents.
Mandrake @ 28
?donde esta la biblioteca?
Rayne-
I totally agree with you. Most first generation immigrants don’t learn the native language. But the children always do. I would guess that most of us are here because we had previous generations emmigrate here from a country that didn’t speak english. The US is the only country that doesn’t think it’s important that the citizens know a second language. People who make a big stink about others speaking spanish here are just too lazy to learn another language.
Ed*ard Teller @ 42
For what ever reason, this seems to be standard issue among Rethugs. I have a Senator from each party. I called Specter and his office said exactly the same thing. They had no clue how he was gonna vote. I didn’t ask, but it sounds like they are getting a lot of calls, and it is an easy way of getting people off the phone. Spineless cowards.
Rayne @ 25
I’m not fluent enough in Spanish to answer in Spanish, but I like that word “cambiador”. Unfortunately it seems to be used today mostly in reference to “disk changers,” but the word has to have a broader reference.
On the other hand, you might enjoy calling Hillary a goat-sucker (Chupacabra), even if the term has a broader reference. Hey, did I just say that?
Oh, well. I like cambiador in this application.
Roberto en HI
Bob in HI
Many of the kids (born and raised in the U.S.) I run into, can’t speak decent English, spell or write well. Let alone speak a foreign language.
Bob Schacht @ 35
maybe in the Peace Corps, I forget where he went
Rayne @ 11
She is no doubt an inspiration to Republics who will flock to vote against her. It seems like she is well aligned with them and that is dangerous for this nation.
Hi doggies. It’ hard to know what Hil’s camp is concluding:
That she’ll look foolish using a translator while alongside 2 Spanish-fluent opponents
or
She’ll look like she could not care less by not making the effort.
I think this is an extremely important gauge of Hillary’s commitment to “diversity”, and I would imagine Spanish-speaking voters will, too.
you gotta remember the paradigm to which the immigrants aspire: White-folkz monolingualism is what is represented as the norm. in a broader, assimilationist sense, it is NECESSARY that grand-kids of immigrants view their ancestors as quaint and flawed, and something beyond which the 2nd-gen immigrant child must ESCAPE…
that’s hard-wired into the discourse…
.
Y’know, I’m hearing this word “triangulation” just often enough to p*ss me off. Everyone who uses that word has just bought into a Republican meme about Clinton. Congratulations on your support of the next Republican president.
What does triangulation really mean? One reading of it is that the triangulator actually pays attention to what other people think. Wow! What a concept! Might even have something to do with democracy???
C’mon, folks. Stop beating a Republican drum.
OK, I’m off the soapbox.
Bob in HI
Three years of a foreign language should be required for graduation from a public school. The catch is, this will have to be paid for.
TeddySanFran @ 45
Yes, my own family suffered from a bit of that isolation; my maternal great-grandmother refused to speak English when she came here, but wouldn’t encourage Finn among her grandchildren who were the first American-born in the family. I only know snippets of Finn (and mostly obscenities), to my personal chagrin. It also happened on my father’s side of the family; no one speaks Chinese at all, although my great-grandfather emigrated to Hawaii knowing nothing but Mandarin. Fortunately a number of people do speak Hawaiian and make a conscious effort to maintain this talent.
But if my family was to leave it all up to the prevailing culture of this country — a pseudo-WASP corporately-endorsed culture — all that my family is and was would be lost. Is HRC telling the Hispanic/Latin community that their culture is not worth her time? How is it she can tell the increasing non-white portion of America that only some are worth her time and only if it’s easy?
Democracy isn’t easy, after all. You’ve got to really want it badly; our forefathers forefeited much of their lives in terms of their homes and cultures to obtain it. The least a potential president could do is meet the people that really want democracy so badly part of the way.
One other data point to add to the mix:
Rahm Emanuel has reportedly been saying the reason some close candidates lost in 2006 was not because he poured $$$ into Tammy Duckworth and told her not to talk about Iraq, while pushing aggressive progressives to the campaign finance soup line, but rather because. . . wait for it. . . candidates who lost (especially women) were perceived as too soft on immigration.
I actually don’t think Hillary is a coward. I think she’s a very brave woman. I think, as Matt Stoller says, she actually believes the hawkish and conservative policies she supports.
Just because she coined the term “vast right wing conspiracy” does not make her a liberal, at least, not the kind of liberal most of us around here are, or, for that matter, the kind of liberals most Americans are when it comes to the Iraq occupation.
Rayne @ 33
equivocaćion? (have no idea if that’s a word in Spanish, just looks good!)
I for one certainly have no problem referring to Senator Clinton as a Democratic ‘politician’.
CSPAN up right now with end of Morning business debate on US attorneys– Hatch up now, DiFi and Spector up next. They’re talking about the Cloture petition.
Bob in HI
Rayne @ 58
Sort of my point, but better made than mine. And I think she will probably reconsider, and attend.
And how does Hillary jump back into the forum without looking like a schmuck? Answer – she doesn’t. And maybe she deserves it.
Depending on when the debate is scheduled, all the non-Spanish speaking candidates could take 2-3 weeks off and learn basic Spanish (of course it would cut into their fund raising)/snark.
Here in Canukistan we have all kinds of English speaking only federal candidates who do an intensive French language learning process and do show up to debates in French. They butcher the language during the debates, but ya gotta give ‘em credit for trying.
Its coming folks, sooner or later all US presidential candidates will have to speak English AND Spanish. That will thin the crowd out in a hurry.
Totally OT, but I never watched the Sopranos. I feel like I need to cover my head when I say that. Anyway, all I’ve heard today is bitching about the ending. Even on Air America. Sheesh.
Wikipedia on “Triangulation”:
The term was first used by President of the United States Bill Clinton’s chief political advisor Dick Morris as a way to describe his strategy for getting Clinton reelected in the 1996 presidential election. Morris advocated a set of policies that were different from the traditional policies of the Democratic Party. The idea Clinton used behind some of these policies was to be “more Republican than the Republicans.” These policies included welfare reform, tax cuts for the middle class and balanced budgets. One of the most widely cited capstones of Clinton’s triangulation strategy was when, in his 1996 State of the Union Address, Clinton declared that the “Era of Big Government is over.”
[edit] Use after Bill Clinton
Triangulation was emulated during the 2000 presidential election in the Bush campaign’s use of the term “compassionate conservative”. The subsequent Bush campaign, however, returned to the 80’s tradition of focusing on appealing to more partisan voters using so-called wedge issues.
Other leading politicians who have successfully used the method include Tony Blair with “New Labour” in the United Kingdom and Fredrik Reinfeldt with “The New Moderates” in Sweden.
Hillary Clinton used triangulation politics in her 2008 presidential primary run to arrive at the conclusion that deauthorizing the Iraq war, rather than cutting off funding, is the best method to mollify her original vote to authorize war while essentially failing to compel any change to the war policy.(emphasis added)
P-Luv @ 38
True…but white male Republicans and Independents don’t exactly have a strong record of voting for women, either.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 50
For example, from Bush’s press conference this weekend in Rome with Italian Prime Minister Prodi:
What a bloody shame, that this inarticulate boob is the leader of our country.
Ed*ard Teller @ 43
Oh, probably not at all, but I just LOVE that word chupacabra. Kind of rolls off the tongue, makes a great epithet, doesn’t it?
1,544 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Bob Schact and the Firepup Patriots:
Now,now dear, don’t work yerself into a stroke jest take a pill with another glass a the Kool Aid…this is a “free speech zone”, a concept with which Mrs. Clinton and her droolin’ sycophants have a bit of difficulty.
Triangulation does NOT mean “…that the triagulator actually pays attension to what other people think.” As we know it, political triagulation is the method of makin’ a political decision by isolating the and splitting the majority and makin common cause with the minority. Look at Tony Blair and his neo-con Labor Party.
So don’t get in a huff when people with a few brain cells workin’ call “bullshit” on Mrs. Clinton.
KEEP THE FAITH AND GET THOSE BASTARDS OUTTA MY YARD!!
foulis @ 63
This guy showed our candidates how to do it.
Granted, it’s quite the standard, but this is what a future president should be able to do.
Pachacutec @ 59
This is what I don’t get. Is it me, in that it seems like the Clinton’s and their toadies(the Rahm Emanuel’s) are only out for themselves. What does she or Rahm do to help the Democratic Party? It’s like both of them don’t want to be associated with it.
Analogous to my initial conversations with my gf’s family… I was worried– they are immigrants and although most of the family under 50 speaks english fluently, the old-timers don’t. I quickly got over it because we were all trying to understand each other.
I had no problem talking with them (talking and listening) with support and translation from others in four different languages. Similar to I Love Lucy european police station sketch.
I’d hope that the Clinton camp would take the opportunity and not view it through the damage control lens. That Hilary’s lack of language skills would show her as weak?
Hiya Norske,
As I said the other day, the problem with triangulation is that you end up stuck in a corner.
No matter which way you turn.
You know, I’m no fan of Hillary, but this sort of nitpicking crap really is tiresome.
Sorry, I had to step away from the thread for a bit.
To answer Bob in HI & Cathy, Senator Dodd became fluent in Spanish when he was in the Peace Corps in the Dominican Republic.
Also, today Senator Dodd released this statement on the Univision debate:
Disclosure: I proudly work for Senator Chris Dodd’s presidential campaign.
Matt Browner Hamlin @ 17
Thanks for the link, Matt. Senator Dodd is looking better and better!
The picture of dysfunction?
http://news.yahoo.com/photo/07…..AA9BdY24cA
Gah. Madness!
This is precisely why a Clinton candidacy, and more significantly, a[nother] Clinton presidency of-little-commonsense makes me so damn nervous.
Thanks for picking up on this Pach.
A Donde esten El Gato Negro?
Ed*ard Teller @ 18
hipócrita?
All I know is that if Senora Clinton is elected, I’ll feel safer living in the Bermuda Triangle than in the USA. If the GOP returns to power in 2008, I think I’ll check back on the job offer I got from these guys to skipper a fishing charter boat in Costa Rica. Then I can practice my Spanish all day long.
OT – Spector Live on CSPAN re: Res of No confidence – “poses many currents an cross-currents.”
1. Have I lost confidence in AGAG? – absolutely yes. He’s made representations which are false.
(He lists them) Dept is in shambles.
2. Is this res politically motivated? Yes it is.
3. Does Schumer have a conflict of interest? I believe he does. Because of Democratic Campaign Committee.
4. Will it lead to AG leaving? Resoultion will be counter-productive. We on this side of the aisle do not have confidence in AG. The views will not be expressed in this format.
5. Is this to embarras Repubs? Yes. Will be a gotcha 30 second commercial in later campaigns.
Why vote against cloture? 1. We have lots more important things to do; 2. Investigation is not over; 3. Constitution says impeachment is way to deal with AG.
He will vote to invoke cloture.
RE: Specter. Here’s the link. He says he’ll vote for a no confidence resolution. I’ll believe it when I see it.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITI…..cnn_latest
Now, to be fair, it is easy to misspeak in a second language.
And for to an attorney and politician nuance and equivication are like oxygen and water.
I can see where Hillary might be uncomfortable going head to head with a fluent speaker before a large audience.
But, for me, Ms. Clinton’s nuanced answer to the invitation is yet another checkmark in a large negative column.
Pachacutec @ 58
I think she is too smart to have really believed that Saddam Hussein was going to strike us with WMD. After all, ordinary folks like us knew the premise for the war was a lie and that invading Iraq would not make us safer.
Her vote, like many others, was a cynical political move. That said, I believe that, after she took the plunge, she began to envision herself as the next Margaret Thatcher, thinking the country was moving into a warlike posture for years to come.
Shame we just don’t have the resources to wage eternal war all over the world.
PS – Thanks to Fox News and Rush Limbaugh, she will always, ALWAYS, be referred to as a liberal, regardless of her policy positions. People who know nothing about her refer to her as a liberal as a sort of knee-jerk reaction. It’s been drilled into their subconscious.
So, will Spector draft articles of impeachment???
Helen @ 81
Specteramous is a fuckin’worm! How’s that for some english?
Donde esta ‘no confidence’?
Helen @ 81
Agree 100% with #3
Let’s Roll!
fdl reader @ 85
Spector’s a Senator — impeachments originate in the House. The person who should be drafting articles of impeachment for Gonzo is the Speaker of the House or better yet, a Republican Rep…
kdh22 @ 86
Oh, and ‘Hiya’ Helen!
fdl reader @ 84
Yes, for Nixon sometime next year.
The reason I don’t want Hillary Clinton as my president is because I view the Senator as a “hawk” on the Middle East.
Hiya kdh22
Right now DiFi is spelling the whole scandal out. Quite damning when done in 5 minutes. Just the list of those who swear they did not put the USAs on the list is impressive when taken all at once.
What more does Dodd have to do to win some serious support from Liberals? He has a long history of doing the right things, for the most part. I don’t quite understand the frequent apprehension I hear from fellow Liberals. I’ll support the Dem nominee, but c’mon, this is why we have primaries.
BTW, I’m starting to watch for Clinton connections in the electronic voting machine industry…anyone want to join in? Conglomerates know a “Clinton” is a friend. I mean Ruppee Murdoch, literally a man out of Orwell’s 1984 and one of the most destructive forces to the American Constitution, holds fundraisers for Hillary and they call each other friends! We’ve got to remain vigilant and not get complacent with any old “Democrat” in the WH, like many did during the 90s.
Mack @ 83
are there any check marks in the other column? you know, the one that says she can win?
Helen @ 93
Concentrated denial?!?
TiredFed @ 95
Just the cash, but Obama is challenging in that regard.
Diane @ 24
No shit?
I am, literally, holding my breath.
He’ll find some way to squeeze some Scottish Haggis out of it.
emptywheel @ 98
ya gotta let it out, Marcy!
I’ve been dialing Specter’s office since I read this but the line has been busy constantly. Read this prior to the CSpan comments.
emptywheel @ 98
spew!!
Look at the
I’d rather be somewhere elsevacant stare.And this doll wants to invade Iran.
Holy Jeebus!
emptywheel @ 98
I’m with EW.
Frank Probst @ 82
Actually, CNN got it wrong. He didn’t say he’d vote no-confidence. What he DID say,was that he’d vote to invoke cloture. If, by some miracle cloture is invoked, it wouldn’t surprise me if he voted against no-confidence, being the weasel he is.
OT but will be On Topic later: one of our fellow commenters has graciously agreed to host pdf copies of documents on the Libby trial as they become available on PACER (that’s the U.S. District Court’s web-based Public Access to Court Electronic Records Service Center – you have to sign up for and get login by snailmail). I expect a Fitz filing by COB today and hopefully we can all share it this evening. I will post a link to the document over at my place (see link at my “name” above).
yellowdogD @ 104
WORM! WORM! WORM! Parses the words at every opportunity! /end of rant
DiFi is laying it all out there…
emptywheel @ 98
Do you have a fan-club? Marcy in the NYT.
emptywheel @ 98
Don’t hold your breath, Marcy, blue isn’t your color, is it? ;-)
I think Specter already squeezed out some haggis if Helen’s correct at (81) above. His usual performance from the looks of it. God have mercy on him because I certainly can’t grant him any.
TiredFed @ 95
Erm
…
She recognized health care as a majore issue before anyone else had the cojones to take it on?
Oh, but she triangulated the effort and failed.
Good on Women’s Issues
maybe.
Nopt certain she *is* as electable (or unelectable) as any given pundit/push poller would like me beleive.
OT
about the fdl facebook thing=
i emailed facebook on how to get rid of my birthdate and email on my facepage—they emailed me back that you aren’t allowed to use nicknames, i used dmac dmac, and that using nicknames violates their policy—i’ve been kicked off, unless i use my full real name.
================
here’s the letter i received
Hi —–,
Thank you for your Email.
Please understand that fake names are a violation of our Terms of
Use. Facebook requires users to provide their full first and last
names (i.e. no initials). Impersonating anyone or anything is
prohibited. Nicknames are only permitted if they are a variation of
your first or last name.
If you would like to use this profile again, just get back to us with
your real name and we will reactivate the account for you. At this
time I can further instruct you on how to make the requested
changes to your profile.
Thanks for your understanding,
Dori
Customer Support Representative
Facebook
While we are waiting for the no-confidence
vote…
Last 12 prez’s IQ’s
Clinton 182
Carter 175
JFK 174
Nixon 155
FDR 147
Truman 132
LBJ 126
Eisenhower 122
Gerry Ford 121
Reagan 105
George Bush the first 98
Junior Bush 91
If we can’t impeach, how’s about an Amendment
(retro) that the Prez must have an IQ over 100?
Rayne at 109
Yeah – I had a devil of a time blogging it, cuz he kept contradicting himself. I’m still not absolutely sure I got it right.
Mandrake @ 83
Most excellent point! Apparently she (along with most other reps, Dems and Reps) both did not bother to read the NIE. Why? Because she had already made her mind up.
Like GW, she is existentially pissed off. And what better way to act out on one’s existential pissed-offness, than to be a warlike person-in-power.
We need a real grown-up occupying the White House. Unfortunately, we haven’t had one since Jimmy Carter–who had the maturity and honesty to admit that he had had lustful/adulterous thoughts in his mind/heart.
1,544 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizens Bustednuckles and Oklahoma kiddo:
Don’tcha think it’s time for Bill Clinton to make the boldest and cleverist political move and repay his debt to the American people by filin’ divorce papers on Mrs. Clinton? this would be an act of citizenship which would simulteneously purge the Democratic Party of the DLC and free the former Mr. President to take a big office in a new Democratic administration.
A guy ken dream can’t he?
KEEP THE FAITH, SHE AIN’T GOT A SNOWBALL’S CHANCE IN A HOT PLACE!!
Bay State Librul-
Is that for real?
radiofreewill @ 87
What’s up is the vote on taking a vote. That debate won’t really start for another hour.
Bob in HI
dmac @ 111
Oh, Snap!
Thanks for this.
cathy @ 116
Source: The Lovenstein Institute
of Scranton PA… four month study based on their scholarly achievements…
I watch Univision news. The opportunity for a major Democratic pickup is palpable. The fact that Clinton doesn't understand this speaks volumes about her.Rejecting Univision is the equivalent of rejecting BET.
Democratic nominees, please WAKE UP TO THE MOST IMPORTANT NEW CONSIITUENCY OF THIS CENTURY! And get a decent full-time translator!
Helen @ 113
You goy it right. I kept waiting for the big BUT, but it never came.
Helen @ 113
I feel for you, appreciate the effort; you managed to capture the quintessential pain-in-the-*ss flip-floppery of Specter.
edit: I can almost smell the haggis…
cathy @ 116
What a Google search turns up.
Bay State Librul @ 112
How about over 106? ;)
NorskeFlamethrower @ 114
Haha NFT! Your comments are always iconoclastic, but this one is a real keeper!
cathy @ 116
I was going to ask the same q…
Woodhall Hollow @ 114,
You mean his lusting for Patti McGuire? Was she married to Jimmy Connors then? Or was that after?
dmac – Thanks for sharing the letter. Guess my days are numbered.. until then I will stick with old saying, it’s better to ask forgiveness than permission…)
Senator Clinton has her reasons, I am sure, for not attending the debate which will be in Spanish. She would I’m sure, as would all non-Spanish speaking debaters, have an interpreter. Isn’t that what happens in the UN? So the argument that she does not want to attend because of a language barrier doesn’t hold water. There are other reasons why Clinton declined the invitation.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 126
Don’t matter, it’s the
thoughtintention which matters. Something only a real grownup would understand. ;-)baystatelibrul 112
“While we are waiting for the no-confidence
vote…
Last 12 prez’s IQ’s
Clinton 182
Carter 175
JFK 174
Nixon 155
FDR 147
Truman 132
LBJ 126
Eisenhower 122
Gerry Ford 121
Reagan 105
George Bush the first 98
Junior Bush 91
If we can’t impeach, how’s about an Amendment
(retro) that the Prez must have an IQ over 100?”
=========
is that for real?
emptywheel @ 98
I’ll believe it when I see the vote cast. I called his office today, and they told me they didn’t know how he’ll vote. I basically told his office that unless he stops kissing Commader Guy’s ass, he can kiss his job goodbye come 2010. It sounded to me like a lot of people are PO’ed at Specter.
I hope that the Democratic candidates show up for this debate. Latinos are a growing segment of the population, and ignoring them is as bad a strategy as ignoring the rural states proved to be. Unfortunately, they won’t play a big part in the early primaries, but they will be a big factor in Florida, Texas, and elsewhere in the South and Northeast.
dmac @ 131
Yeah we are dealing with a complete idiot…
Shorter, anything we say about him is not
understood by Georgie?
In a sense, it makes me feel better
Jane’s upstairs…
newtnuser-
people are getting around it and using two-spaced ‘nicknames’, but if they get caught-whammo………if you do join under your real name, make sure to put your fdl name as a middle name……
wow, baystatelibrul-
that explains a lot.
ignorance is bliss.
dmac @ 111 –
hmmm… i guess i won’t count on keeping my “selise selise” facebook page.
If Thompson runs, he’ll not be all that easy to beat. Of the Republicans, the view here would be that Fred could very well win the nomination.
selise at 138
“dmac @ 111 –
hmmm… i guess i won’t count on keeping my “selise selise” facebook page.”
just don’t email them with a question, like i did………too honest for my own good……didn’t even think about it when i emailed them.
kdh22 @ 96
When you boil it all down, yes.
fdl reader @ 85
He’ll repudiate the magic bullet theory before he does that!!
P J Evans @ 141
hehehe :)
dmac @ 136
yep. thanks.
But … but … but … he SAID impeachment’s the way to go: right there on the Senate floor!
BWWWWWHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAA!
I know that I am coming to this party late, so if this has already been mentioned my apologies. But I think the reason Clinton backed away from the Univision debate is because it will be in Spanish which is contrary to the whole idiotic English as the official/ national language debate. Per her response on the CNN Debate a couple of weeks ago, I think she is trying to distance herself from the whole thing. But in saying that, I think that her camp handled her response poorly. As Pachacutec points out…
Trying to avoid this debate to avoid arousing the anti-immigration wingnuts is idiotic. No voter worked up for english-only and against Mexican immigrants is going to vote for the Democratic candidate. Even if she or he went down to the border and started shooting people trying to cross. Everybody else sees it as a complicated issue, but 3rd or 4th on their voting priorities.
However I’ve read other places that Kerry lost Hispanic/Latino votes, costing him key Western states, because his campaign waited until the last month to target them or even make a Spanish website. To grab or hold those purple mountain/western states, the Democrats need to get those votes this time.
(Also Native American votes are enough to tip some of those states, but Democrats were always cautious about alienating Whites by courting their votes.)
Bob Schacht @ 56
I’ve used the word, so let me take a shot at describing what I think it means.
It means taking up issues the other party usually rallies around and applying your own policy to those issues. When Bill Clinton put police on the streets it seemed pretty unusual because only Repubs had ‘been tough on crime’.
Another way you can triangulate is to coordinate with Repubs to outflank or overpower the less Conservative Democrats.
She’s clearly a Conservative Dem or Liberal Repub, no doubt about that. But, when she goes along with Dubya on the war in Iraq and when she endorses non-union practice and just flat out accepts the Republican party position on issues, then she is clearly triangulating in the absolute worst way — not even putting a Dem spin on the issue.
Perhaps scariest, but not exactly proven, is if she were to coordinate message, funding or other activities with Republicans. I suspect her of that, but have no proof. It would definately make her appear a lot more like Arlen Specter or John McCain and we don’t want them for president, do we?
So, we keep listening and watching to see where our candidates stand and try to find the best one.
Sorry if the rhetoric upsets. That’s not the purpose. At least as far as I am concerned it’s just an attempt to understand the candidates better. I hold no personal malice toward Hillary or Bill.
bonkers @ 94
I think he has our respect and is still in the running. I favor Gore and Edwards for the moment, but Dodd, Obama and Richardson are close behind.
Hang in there and fight. It’s a contest. We don’t see Dodd on t.v. enough. I hope he’s getting heard in Iowa and New Hampshire.
How’s the campaign’s financing going? Got enough money?
If she does not attend it will probably be a huge mistake.
Now our candidates must be multi-lingual? Because we’re pretending it’s NOT racist to act as if our Hispanic citizens are less capable of understanding English than every previous immigrant group?
Isn’t UNIVISION owned by one of Bush’s “Pioneers”? Hasn’t he systematically been firing staff and newspeople who cover policies and events that reveal the flaws in Bush’s domestic and international policies?
And why shouldn’t Clinton be concerned when UNIVISION doesn’t provide the ground-rules for the debate (although it WILL provide translators how does one know that they will not mistranslate a statement…which the candidate cannot “correct” on the air). Nuance is important in translation and tone can be changed severely by a translator who selects synonyms that vary from context).
The Democratic candidates pulled out of the FAUX debates primarily because of their biased reportage. UNIVISION isn’t much better in some ways…and it wouldn’t surprise me that the debate questions would be impacted by the “publishers” politics.
Of course, given the selection of questions by the other networks maybe it wouldn’t make much of a difference.