Last Thursday, a Republican punched a Democrat on the floor of the Alabama Senate:
Now it’s wrong to say that this sort of thing only happens in the South; but it is right to say that for America, its origin as a tendency is Southern. Punching someone instead of arguing with them — the instinct to use violence as the first, best answer to a threat not just against one’s person, but against one’s position or “honor”, is something very old, enduring, and ingrained in Southern culture.
“Violence as the first resort” is a basic part of Southern identity and tradition. There’s an old study of Southern psychology, The Mind of the South by W.J. Cash that, whatever its other faults, describes the tendency very well:
In focusing the old backcountry pride upon the ideas of superiority to the Negro and the peerage of white men, and thereby (fully in the masses, and in some basic manner even in the planters) divorcing it from the necessity for achievement, it inevitably shifted emphasis back upon and lent new impulsion to the purely personal and puerile attitude which distinguishes the frontier outlook everywhere.
And when to that was added the natural effect on the planters of virtually unlimited sway over their bondsmen, and the natural effects on the common whites of the example of these planters, it evenuated in this: that the individualism of the plantation world be one which, like that of the backcountry before it, would be far too much concerned with bald, immediate, unsupported assertion of the ego, which placed too great stress on the inviolability of personal whim, and which was full of the chip-on-shoulder swagger and brag of a boy — one, in brief, of which the essence was the boast, voiced or not, on the part of every Southerner, that he would knock hell out of whoever dared to cross him.
This character is of the utmost significance. For its corollary was the perpetuation and acceleration of the tendency to violence which had grown up in the Southern backwoods as it naturally grows up on all frontiers. Other factors [...] played their part in perpetuating and elaborating this pattern, too. But none was more decisive than this one. However careful they might be to walk softly, such men as these of the South were bound to often come into conflict. And being what they were — simple, direct, and immensely personal — and their world being what it was — conflict with them could only mean immediate physical clashing, could only mean fisticuffs, the gouging ring, and knife and gun play.
Nor was it private violence that was thus perpetuated. The Southerner’s fundamental approach carried over into the realm of public offenses as well. What the direct willfulness of his individualism demanded, when confronted by a crime that aroused his anger, was immediate satisfaction for itself — catharsis for personal passion in the spectacle of a body dancing at the end of a rope or writing in the fire — now, within the hour — and not some ponderous abstract justice in a problematic tomorrow. And so, in this world of ineffective social control, the tradition of vigilante action, which normally lives and dies with the frontier, not only survived but grew so steadily that already long before the Civil War [...] the South had become peculiarly the home of lynching. [...]
Allow what you will for esprit de corps, for this or that, the thing that sent him up the slope at Gettysburg [...] was before all else nothing more or less than the thing which elsewhere accounted for his violence — was nothing more ot less than his conviction, the conviction of every farmer among what was essentially only a band of farmers, that nothing living could cross him and get away with it.
When Senator Bishop punched Senator Barron for calling him a son of a bitch, he was simply adhering to a Southern tradition. Obviously, Senator Barron was being obnoxious. Yes, and Senator Charles Sumner of Massachusetts was pompous and conceited (when U.S. Grant was told Senator Sumner didn’t believe in the Bible, the general was spot-on in his reply: “That’s only because he didn’t write it.”), but even so, it did not mean that another Southern traditionalist, Congressman Preston Brooks of South Carolina ought to have beat him down with a cane on the floor of the Senate while a Southern comrade held back by gunpoint any attempts at intervention. And indeed, it’s only because the majority of American opinion is Liberal — which is to say, disgusted by manifestations of violent Southern tradition — that Senator Zell Miller could not follow through on his famous wish to meet Chris Matthews on the field of honor.
Contrast the description in the Cash quote to the perennial claims of wingnuts that the Republican Party is the party of ideas, whereas the Democratic Party is the party of feelings. Actually, wingnuts act the way they do because of feelings, too — except theirs are the wrong sort of feelings, child-tantrum feelings, impulsive and violent.
Wingnuttia, which knows it is troglodytic, admires the Southern cultural tradition of impulsive violence for exactly that quality. Wingnuttia perpetuates it, inculcates it, exalts it; indeed, it would like to universalize it. As Hank Jr. might say, when wingnuts rage on and want America to bomb Muslims all night long, well it’s a Southern tradition. And that tradition of interpersonal, tribalist, and racist violence, acted out of impulse and entirely divorced from reason, entirely influences everything they do.
Like, in foreign policy. The Southern tradition of impulsive violence is part of what Walter Russell Mead calls “The Jacksonian Tradition”, named after President Andrew Jackson of Tennessee, a semi-literate hothead who raged against those who offended his honor–and sometimes killed them. Now Mead likes Jacksonian America, and seeks to conflate it with all sorts of simple populist tendencies so as to make it more palatable to the masses; he believes America needs Jacksonians, and so avoids describing in unadorned language what they are really all about — armed to the teeth, irrational, itching for a fight with anyone, anywhere. But the Freepers can parse his code, see themselves in the Jacksonian mirror. Reading their comments one can almost hear the “yeeeeeeeeee haws” and “tarnations”. And Perfesser Corncob of Knoxville, Tennessee, echoes their rebel yells. Oh, yes, America: all your Jacksonian base are belong to wingnuts!
Sigh.
Contra the Jacksonians, the way of civilization is to solve international disputes without violence. Through diplomacy. Though this is not always possible, it is the proper “first, best” response to a problem. This is exactly purpose of the State Department; and only if and when the State Department fails does another executive branch ministry, the Department of Defense (which was originally and honestly named the Department of War before Empire’s hardworking euphemists gave it a make-over) take action. Naturally then, wingnuts detest the State Department’s whole reason for existence. State Department “realists” versus Department of Defense neocons has been the primary internecine conflict of the Bush administration. For a long time there, you could scarcely read anything by Frum, Perle, Krauthammer, et al. that did not have a sneer at Colin Powell’s expense inserted somewhere in the text, usually accusing Powell’s State Department of sabotaging the war effort. And now they hate Condi, whom they loved when she was National Security Advisor. Condi has not changed, but her position has; as Secretary of State her job is diplomacy not jingoism. So now that she’s not a jingo, she sucks. As an example, here’s Michael Ledeen, snarling at diplomats and recommending Joe “Bomb Iran” Lieberman for Secretary of State. As is usual for neocons, Ledeen’s formula is to demonize diplomats as “appeasers”. Ledeen wants to eliminate diplomats and replace them with jingos; he wants to change the very nature of the State Department so that it ceases to think and communicate and haggle; he wants it to bomb first and ask questions and think about consequences later; and Ledeen is right that Joe Lieberman is no diplomat. Yet, even if Ledeen got his wish and Lieberman were made Secretary of State, it’s doubtful he or the rest of the neocons would be satisfied. Even Henry Kissinger, war criminal, is not and was not bellicose enough for their tastes. But then it kind of logically if sociopathically follows that there is a point at which even overkill fails to sate the urges of those who are recklessly and impulsively violent. Neocons are Jacksonians 2.0.
It’s a pathetic situation. The Southern tendency to impulsive stupidity is everywhere. The Southern tendency to impulsive violence, however, is mostly confined to wingnuttia — a deserving home. And it goes without saying that it remains in the geographical South. I’m a Southerner by birth and have lived most of my life in Arkansas and Tennessee. Impulsive violence surrounds me; and I admit that I have sometimes engaged in it or have wanted to. But as Cash says, it’s a part of the frontier mentality. Only under special conditions did it survive the demise of the frontier. Those conditions are caused in large part by the desire of people to preserve things that ought to go over the cliff. Wingnuts seek to preserve this part of the Southern tradition because it suits their warmongering purposes. Which is all the reason more why we should let it die. When Rush Limbaugh attacked the First Daughter by comparing her to a dog, the Southerner in me wanted Bill Clinton to storm “EIB” studios and kick his fat ass. But it would have been wrong, and a bad example. Part of being civilized is trying to overcome the nasty habits of one’s culture. We may not always be successful, but we must try.
Related posts:
- Late Night: The Shocking Lack of Civility in Our National Discourse, In My Considered Opinion, Sucks Hairy Baboon Ass
- Late Night: Rome, S.C. Burns While Nero Diddles
- Late Night: The South Carolina GOP Supper Club Presents “The Merchants of Prejudice”
- Late Night: Praise the Lord for Stupid Sex
- Late Night: “Git off, Pa, Yer Crushin’ Mah Marlboros!”





Spotlight
zed uno
Why am I still all alone here?
Yay Cassie…clearly you’re stalking Late Night.
G’evening, HTML. How do we change a culture that is rooted in not changing?
SnarKassandra @ 2
Patience, young Jedi.
Mutant Poodle @ 3
I probably won’t be on the next two nights so I had to get it in now!
The bottom thread was slow to refresh…maybe they don’t know yet.
Evening all. How’s life in the Lake tonight? I had a bit of a thrill today. I saw a bear. Went for a short hike (2 hours) up a side trail in the Rattlesnake National Recreation Area (just outside of town) this afternoon. Got to the turnaround point and was sitting down resting, when I looked up and saw it crossing the trail about 50 yards ahead of me. Didn’t get a real good look (never saw the head, just from the shoulder back), but it was a big brown bear (the size of a full grown black bear or a young grizzly). As soon as it got out of sight, I got up and left (especially since it was headed my way). Since it was just a short hike, I didn’t have my bear spray and forgot to take my camera as well.
Suzanne @ 4
We don’t. When has any culture ever changed for the better because an outsider intervened?
Suzanne @ 4
Hey Suz…nobody like change, do they? Work on what you believe with an open heart, hope for the best. What else is there to do?
Evenin’ all. Southern by birth, but lucky enough to be raised by enlightened parents. But I too have seen some of the impulsive stupidity around here.
AnnieW @ 7
Are the tech guys still locked in back? I still hang up occasionally on refresh and/or post comments.
Suzanne – after you get that foot iced can you throw them a pizza and see what’s up?
I agree, EDP, the change must come from within. Not from outsiders.
I am a Texan who has never yet left Texas. We talk more southern than people up north, but I don’t know if it is the same culture.
Isn’t it mostly guys that want to punch people when they hear an insult?
Drdick,
Honey, if you live where the bears live…please take care of yourself. One might want to go home with you. So cool. I was excited to see deer up where I live, but a bear? Oh, my.
Good post HTML. I know what you mean about Southern “impetuosity”. I grew up and lived in Oklahoma for 35 years. While I have been gone for 20 years I still get that ingrained urge to violence or stupidity. I refer to it as my “inner Okie” and try to keep it locked up in a closet in the psychic basement most of the time.
SnarKassandra @ 14
Usually adolescents or drunken adults.
Or whiny Republicans.
SnarKassandra @ 14
I would say, no, it isn’t. At least Austin isn’t.
Often, but not necessarily.
SnarKassandra @ 14
Touche, girl! No doubt, it is usually the male half of the species hat gets all riled up about honor.
Women, of course, traditionally had to find more subtle methods of revenge.
And yes, Texas is its “own self” (not sure, that may be a quote from Molly Ivins). Lots of South, a little midwest, plenty of frontier, but still, not the same as Alabama, or even Virginia.
i just checked and downstairs is refreshing fine – sometimes the wheel hangs up when a new post first posts – i’m sure they will be along shortly.
I think the democratic senator missed a golden opportunity to punch back in self defense, and who knows what damage he could have extracted with a well executed upper cut ….
EvilDrPuma @ 9
Particularly, at Gun Point!!! ;-)
EvilDrPuma @ 18
SnarKassandra @ 14
Well yes and no. The South is not monolithic, nor are any of the states that make it up. Texas, like Oklahoma, shares the Southern culture of violence on the whole. There are, however, islands of sanity, like Austin or Norman. As to who punches people. Yes, it is mostly guys (though not all of them – I haven’t hit anyone since I was 16), but there are more than a few redneck girls and women I would not want mad at me.
Suzanne @ 13
I sometimes think the human race is pathetic. We just haven’t evolved far enough.
tejanarusa @ 23
Unless you count DFW (I don’t), Austin is the only place I’ve been in Texas. On the rest of the state, I plead limited experience.
DrDick @ 24
I haven’t hit anyone since 5th grade.
I’m new to late night, so please excuse my nosiness, but I thought snarkass…was a teenage girl. How come she’s hangin’ out with a bunch of old foggies like us? Anyone? I have a 24 year old daughter and I would ask the same if she were here.
Southern women (like my mother) have a very different tactic to punching someone. They are not called steel magnolias for nothing.
Bush displayed this type of agression to the T when he told the insurgents and Al-Quada to “bring it on!”
dmoore @ 28
Cause I like to be here and I am interested in politics and I like the people and I have to be home by 10 anyway unless I am with my aunt or my brother.
SnarKassandra @ 27
How about that – me too!
Suzanne, ain’t that the truth!
SnarKassandra @ 27
Good for you. Neither have I.
Well said. Having been born and raised in the Old South (in the 50’s) I can attest to the chip-on-the-shoulder attitude. What I also noticed was that the more involved a kid was into his education the less he was likely to adopt that type of behaviour. We were called bookworms but left pretty much alone. It did pay to know how to defend one’s self, however.
SnarKassandra @ 31
Cassie’s aunt also posts here, and supervises her quite well, thank you very much.
The undercurrent of imminent violence in Southern culture has fascinated me for a large part of my life. I have long suspected that it may be rooted in slavery, as the paradigm of controlling slaves with violence and fear may have created a corollary paradigm of treating any object of anger with violence.
The cultural anthropologists here may think me out to lunch. If so, I will gratefully accept their correction.
Suzanne @ 29
I always referred to it as the razor claw in the velvet glove. Those ladies can eviscerate you with just a glance.
“It’s a pathetic situation. The Southern tendency to impulsive stupidity is everywhere.”
Well folks….I think this article is the biggest bunch of bullshit I have EVER read at FDL. What next? All blacks are stupid? All mexicans are lazy?
Does Mr. Mencken have a brain? Sadly, no.
Ghostman
EvilDrPuma @ 34
In my family there’s a classic photo of my younger sister (at about age three) getting ready to haul off and belt me (about age 4). But other than that, I can’t recall myself ever striking out at anyone.
SnarKassandra @ 31
No need to excuse yourself to this (I assume) guy, Cassie. He’s clearly ageist. And age should be no barrier to conversation.
OT
about the facebook thing=
i emailed facebook on how to get rid of my birthdate and email on my facepage—they emailed me back that you aren’t allowed to use nicknames, i used dmac dmac, and that using nicknames violates their policy—i’ve been kicked off, unless i use my full real name. for those of you who do sign up-use your fdl name as a middle name so we know who you are. i might re-join with real name, don’t know yet.
h/t to all of you i saw on there HIYAH!!!!!!!!!! I’VE BEEN DELETED, i tried it earlier, i’m out, bummer. =========================================
here’s the letter i received
Hi —–,
Thank you for your Email.
Please understand that fake names are a violation of our Terms of
Use. Facebook requires users to provide their full first and last
names (i.e. no initials). Impersonating anyone or anything is
prohibited. Nicknames are only permitted if they are a variation of
your first or last name.
If you would like to use this profile again, just get back to us with
your real name and we will reactivate the account for you. At this
time I can further instruct you on how to make the requested
changes to your profile.
Thanks for your understanding,
Dori
Customer Support Representative
Facebook
Tarnation, Mencken, Limbaugh compared his daughter to a dog? Any drugs involved?
SnarKassandra @ 14
Used to spend some time in TX (my ex-inlaws lived in Lubbock). Sure there are differences, but people are people and you would recognize the same types everywhere.
(blowing whistle)
DMoore was asking a question, not being ageist. It is a question that has been asked repeatedly since Cassie started commenting here.
No personal attacks are permitted at the Lake. Civil disagreement, of course, is encouraged.
For the record, DMoore is female – not a guy.
dmoore @ 28
We’re still trying to figure out who has no life….
From the wiki:
Austin’s official slogan promotes the city as “The Live Music Capital of the World”, a reference to its status as home to many musicians and music venues. In recent years, many Austinites have also adopted the unofficial slogan “Keep Austin Weird”; this refers partly to the eclectic and progressive lifestyle of many Austin residents, but is also the slogan for a campaign to preserve smaller local businesses and resist excessive commercialization.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austin,_Texas
Clean up on Aisle 39, Stat!!!
Dang, Dr. Dick, sounds like quite an adventure! What is bear spray?
CT, Ghostman is a long time commenter here at the Lake.
RonD @ 37
I also have been fascinated by the phenomenon, but am not sure of its origins. I think it derives from a variety of sources. One interesting point is that most of the violence is generally internecine, with perpetrator and victim knowing each other. The difference became glaringly obvious when I moved to Chicago. You are much more likely to get punched out at the country club in the South than in a working class bar in Chicago.
SouthernDragon @35:
My experience as a certified nerd and bookworm was somewhat different. The redneck thugs seemed to think we made tempting targets (the last time I hit someone was in self defense by the way).
Look at this:
Judge Deems Women 20% Less Valuable Than Fetuses
Cassie, I have given your 2 sites to my 12 year old granddaughter and told her to call me if she doesn’t understand something or to Google it.
I think you have more common sense than most adults I know. Keep it up.
PeterK #41,
I don’t think dmoore meant to be derogatory in any way. I think, like many, SnK’s intelligence and eloquence bespeak someone much older, and dmoore was simply looking for clarification.
No name-calling required.
DrDick @ 8
That’s always one heck of a thrill, especially when it’s coming at you. Luckily, I’ve never had it end badly. ^_^
I will tell you that the cougar that was over my head a few years ago scared me even worse, though.
EvilDrPuma @ 36
Suzanne @ 4
You can start by endlessly reminding them that we won the war. As I learned during my freshman year at Washington & Lee, there is no easier way to get under the skin of the true Suthruner.
;-)
dmac @42 — I was able to successfully change from my real name to my FDL handle, FWIW
I would like to say that I agree with much of this post. I was born and raised in Alabama, then went to college in Tennessee and now live in Texas. The hair trigger supremacy violence does appear to be a prevalent part of Southern identity. It also seems to me that the violence is not gender segregated.
That said, I would like to suggest that the inclusion of the statement regarding the South as having become “peculiarly the home of lynching” is less than helpful or accurate. That particular horror was, without argument, largely perpetuated in the South. However, the other parts of the country are not free from a history of lynching.
As for tejanarusa in 23, I would like to say that Austin is very liberal in comparison to the rest of Texas. But- the city is not nearly as objectively liberal as it would like to think that it is. It’s great compared to almost anywhere in the South and anywhere else in Texas, true. But in my experience here, it is not as liberal as many would like to think it is.
burnspbesq @ 56
That is an advisarial approach. I was trying to think of a less in the face approach.
LoudounLib @ 58
I don’t use my real name on Facebook. It’s like wordpress where my name is FRECKLES CASSIE. I also don’t let anyone past HS on my friend list.
SnarKassandra @ 2
Did you join the FDL group on Facebook? And add Jane as a friend? ;-)
Suzanne @ 50
Yes’m, duly noted!!!
RonD @ 53
OK, I maybe put that out too fast, I meant it more as a comment than an attack, but perhaps it didn’t sound that way. But it seems wrong to me that a young person should have to explain why she (or he, for that) is spending time blogging with older people. Why do we focus so much on our differences?
PeterK @ 41
Hi, everybody.
Sorry for the typos and so on in my post. I’m not used to writing for a deadline and it shows. Thanks to FDL and Jane and TRex especially for letting me come here.
See, that’s the thing. With every error and infelicity and grammatical fu*k up and hostile sentence I put into the post, I prove my own thesis. Awesome, huh!
Suzanne, would you email me please if you have a second? I have a * really * dumb technical question ;-)
Loo Hoo. @ 49
Bear spray is industrial strength pepper spray. Tends to discourage them from getting too familiar. Those of us who hike into more remote areas routinely take it with us for just such encounters. Bears are not really very aggressive unless they feel threatened (like if you suddenly come up on one). If they hear you coming, they will generally run away. For camping in the wilderness, however, I take a gun, as the smell of food can attract them to your camp and make them more aggressive. You have to be fairly close to use the pepper spray and bears can charge at 35-45 mph.
Suzanne #59,
I have tried the conversational, let’s-discuss-the-issues approach to analyzing Southern-specific issues with many of my peers( I am a native Floridian, and have lived my entire life in the South)-and what happens is this: when you convince them that they’re wrong, they often then try to punch you in the face.
LoudounLib @ 66
A lot of us here are in no place to judge technical questions!
Welcome, HTML. We have been bickering nicely while waiting for you. Thank you for sitting in for TRex tonight.
james @ 46
James is a great name. My father. My son. There’s no reason that I can see for your comment.
Twain @ 53
I will second that. I think my oldest grandson is still a little young (11) or I would send him there.
oh baloney.
The south is certainly violent, but c’mon: need we forget the violence of Boston Mass, New Bedford, Philadelphia (murder city, USA)?
I’m as happy to pile on dumbass rednecks as anyone else, but this post is stupid. Totally fucking stupid.
PeterK @ 63
As a father of young kids (13 and 11) I immediately understood the question altho I never questioned Snark’s presence here assuming that this site isn’t being lurked by predators and the presence of moderators in the wings.
Unfortunately when there are age differences known too many of us get that instinctive protective instinct going.
I know I piss my kids off when I look over their shoulders while they’re online…too bad.
RonD @ 69
Sounds like the 5th grade or even younger.
DreamingCrow @ 55
Yeah. We have those as well – even wander into town occassionally. Unlike bears, cougars really are pretty touchy and aggressive.
brendancalling @ 74
Are you going to Drinking Liberally in Philly tomorrow? I am gonna try, since I have not been in ages.
EvilDrPuma @ 70
;-)
Y’all have been so civil!
And to the dissenters, hey, I understand. But consider the source of the post, ya know? I’m not saying the South sucks per se, I’m just saying it has some horrible cultural traits. It has some good ones, too.
i only caught last few comments, have to go back and read them, just joined in,
cassie has an intellect and insight that foregoes most of us here…an exceptional intellect and life experience from which she has learned many insights, same as me….has two blogs and knows more about human experience and human nature and politics than most of us here….
my dad always said, always play tennis with someone better than you…….and i did, same as she is doing, learning…..and using it on her next opponent
hi cassie
dmoore @ 71
It was a failed attempt at humour, obviously….why would a kid be hanging out at a computer with a bunch of geezers who are hanging out at computers?
Sorry, it’s late here, or early
DrDick @ 73
Look at this 11 year old.
Snarkie #75, it does sound like a schoolyard, doesn’t it? The sad fact is, many people never shake off the lesons they learn in those schoolyards.
HTML Mencken @ 79
Yes, I (who live in ME) used to visit LA fairly often. One of the things I really liked (besides the food, which is fantastic) was the pace of life. People know how to get things done without hurrying too much. Quite different than the NE, and a very pleasant feeling.
RonD @ 81
Ding! (as NPB would say)
HTML Mencken @ 80
Of course.
Stupid is as stupid does…It’s a worldwide affliction.
james @ 81
Oh, okay, sorry. I don’t always get humour online. If we were face to face, I’da probably got it. I’m big on nonverbal. Thanks for clarifying. I really was just trying to figure it out.
Well, Mr. Mencken, I’m not a Southerner. I’m a Texan. But beyond that, what do you expect when you launch sweeping broadsides like this? Should everyone bow down in agreement?
You sorta kinda remind me of….Joe Klein! There’s been some articles on him recently here at FDL. Mr. Klein seems to also launch broadsides, and then when someone (or a blog) “swings back”, Mr. Klein just says “see there! They prove my point!”
Racism, and violence are always unfortunate. But there are plenty of pool hall fights up North as there are down South. I won’t call you names, but I stand by my disagreement with the content of your article.
Ghostman
RonD @ 68
Well, we certainly have video collaboration of what you say above! Wow. And to think it happened in The USofA in 2007, huh Ron?
blogging question —-
did FDL ever fire a blogger or did anyone ever quit? Do you have to delete their stuff when they leave, or can you keep it if they published it when they were on your blog?
I love it and I hate it. There’s the self-pity (still bemoaning carpetbaggers all these years) and the self-aggrandizement (the South will rise again!) but there’s also real pain (”The Night They Drove Ol’ Dixie Down”) and pride.
Thank you Suzanne! :-)
I’m southern, and proud of it. Not cool.
tommy yum @ 94
Why not? They make great cornbread :)
HTML Mencken @ 80
I have to agree. I actually like the South (except the summer heat), but I also recognize problems there. The same is true for Chicago (probably the most racist place I have ever been) or Montana (where they hate “the government”, but are totally dependent on it for their survival).
HTML Mencken @ 79
You mean like CTuttle always calling Suzanne Maam?
That’s sweet and shows respect.
Racism, and violence are always unfortunate. But there are plenty of pool hall fights up North as there are down South.
I agree with that. But the thing is, it’s not usually done according to a code of honor. Unless of course it is, in which case it’s often done according to a code adopted by criminal organizations — the mob and so on. And even then it’s more about power and material considerations than it is done out of an acculturated idea of pride, I think.
tommy yum @ 93
Why not, Tommy? I’m a born and bred Virginian, and proud.
Twain @ 95
And hush puppies…and fried green ‘matas
SnarKassandra @ 91
You guys pruning your roster?
It’s not like the south has a monopoly on backwards assholery or anything. Anyone ever been a fan of the visiting team at the Shoe in Columbus, OH ? When Michigan plays there, the local police arrest UM fans for their own protection. Any honest buckeye fan with a conscience will agree.
And what about a cage match between the southern plantation farmers and western mining town drunks? too close to call.
.
HTML Mencken — Texas are always civil and polite, until someone takes out a gun.
Suzanne,
Thanks for your interference. You have my email, if you write me, I’ll send you the essay I wrote on the meeting with Issa’s guy last Friday. I sent it to Christy, but I haven’t heard back.
I think you just hit the nail on the head. It is very much a Code of Honor ethic that I have experienced.
Somehow, what I’ve never figured out is why the Code requires fisticuffs or other forms of violence.
Hi LooHoo!
{{{{LooHoo}}}}}
dmoore @ 102
deborah-not-demi, I helped LooHoo by forwarding the report to Christy this weekend. :)
SnarKassandra @ 102
I have always argued that the true basis for the famed Southern politeness is the very real threat of violence if you are rude.
Mutant Poodle @ 100
One of the kids is still in middle school and gets mad if someone tries to edit his stuff or tell him he needs to write a reflection on the news and not just a 2 sentence summary. And now he’s hanging out with the editor we fired back in February.
OT, finally have some pix from Alaska…
Suzanne @ 105
Southern men do NOT handle booze at all well. When they get (as they call) all likkered up, look out. Someone is going to be an idiot.
Mutant Poodle @ 109
And I never did get to sell your name!
Heh, yes like the ma’am thing. I personally think Southern hospitality is over-celebrated (like many tribalist societies, Southerners distrust outsiders), but it’s true we have manners (I exclude myself from this generalization, of course). I do know that when I go to other parts of the country, older people are especially impressed that we Southern boys hold doors open for them, address them as ma’am and sir, etc.
Our accents go over rather less well. Some people adore them. But most in my experience, do not.
Suzanne @ 107
Suzanne @ 103
I’ve noticed that “codes of honor” in general are often euphemisms for “norms of social behavior that regulate the use of violence.” “Regulate” being a very different operative term from “reject.”
MP, nice eye candy. Thanks for the pix.
tommy yum @ 92
Can’t claim to understand the south, but my take on these things (having lived in various places, incl. Germany and France) is that every place (or every culture, if you like) has both its upsides and its downsides. So wherever you are from, be justly proud of the former, and do what you can to fix the latter.
Yes, I heard. And, thank you m’am. See, I get that Southern Mannersthingy. :) We wrote separate reports. She liked mine (as I liked hers), wanna read?
sure, dmoore – send it to XXX at xxx with the you know whats in the spaces.
I like the manners thing too. I hate it when someone talks to an adult and doesn’t say sir or ma’am or please or thank you.
RonD @ 104
RonD! Hey.
EvilDrPuma @ 114
I think that the “tribal” characterization of the South is apt here. Most of the societies with such codes (always requiring the use of violence in certain circumstances), like Southern society, are basically kin based and roughly egalitarian. Violence and honor are the ways kin groups regulate their interactions.
Well this junior Steel Magnolia has got to get to bed…good night, all!
Ok, I’m going to throw a small firecracker into the lake-I don’t get the whole “I’m proud of where I come from” thing. There’s nothing wrong with loving one’s home, obviously, but proud? I’m proud of the things I’ve done right. I’m proud of the difficult things that I stuck with until finished. I’m proud of the lessons I’ve learned from my many mistakes. But where I’m from? That was an accident of birth, to which I contributed nothing. It says very little about me, and it was here before me, and shall continue after I’m gone. Please, I mean no offense to anyone. I’ve just never understood.
Or something to that effect.
SnarKassandra @ 112
I took the hit and went facebook.
Yay and my post has its typos fixed! Hanx, FDL! Less embarassing for you, less embarassing for me!
Now I can only be shamed by the quality of my argument! (he says whilst sticking his face out, expecting a cream pie.)
SnarKassandra @ 117
Except online, I guess!
HTML Mencken @ 113
I adore the accents too, if they are not so thick that I have not clue what someone is saying!
LoudounLib @ 121
Good night Magnolia Jr!
Ms. Suzanne, or anyone: what exactly are you talking about with “Code of Honor”? I mean…the only thing I can picture is something out of Hollywood about the Old South, circa the Plantation Era. I’m not aware of some modern-day “code of honor”.
In these modern times, when two guys get in a bar fight, they just square off and start slugging. Bar fights, pool hall fights, gang fights….they go on all over the USA. The South has no monopoly on this stuff.
Ghostman
Suzanne @ 105
LoudounLib @ 120
‘nite!
PeterK @ 125
The online problem is that half the time I don’t know who is SIR and who is MA’AM.
Night LL. Keep those claws sheathed while you sleep.
SnarKassandra @ 130
But you don’t use it even when you do know. Etiquette is relative, I guess (that’s a comment, not a complaint! I don’t care how people address me, as long as it’s cordial).
Cassie – My sister and I went to Crawford for the thing in ‘05. We met a lot of Texans in Waco, Dallas, Crawford, Austin. Not one of them was ugly or mean, although they appeared “not taken” with our “Cindy Sheehan” t-shirts. And always polite, right out of the rule book. All we had to do was be polite ourselves.
I have always argued that the true basis for the famed Southern politeness is the very real threat of violence if you are rude.
Yes, and start ‘em when they are young. My step-father, a native Mississipian, used plenty of violence in making me learn those lovely yes ma’ams and no sirs.
RonD @ 123
That is how I feel about patriotism, too.
PeterK @ 133
Do you think that I am being rude?
Mutant Poodle @ 110
You mean you’re going to charge us 12 cents to look at each picture? The free one was really cool! *g* (missing petrocelli)
Ghostman @ 39
I am pretty close to agreeing with Ghostman 100 percent here.
Violence is everywhere. Only the accent varies from place to place. I would also suggest the triggers are pretty much the same everywhere, insecurity, ignorance, or desperation, etc.
I enjoy a Southern joke as much as the next person. Maybe next time a punchline would help me know where to laugh?
DrDick @ 119
I can’t fully agree with you–some very prominent codes of honor regulate highly inegalitarian interactions. Just to throw out one example, at some periods in Japanese history a member of the bushi caste enjoyed a codified right called kirisutegomen–”cutting and walking away,” which entitled him on grounds of honor to execute an offending peasant on the spot. The right wasn’t necessarily exercised all that often, because doing so on a daily basis would obviously be disruptive to society in general and could bring down social sanctions from one’s peers, but it existed as a matter of principle.
SnarKassandra @ 14
Good evening, SnarKassandra!
I lived in Texas long enough that my ear was beginning to distinguish East Texan from Hill Country Texan from. . . Dang, what was the third dialect of Texas? Abilene? El Paso? or just Dallas? Well, its been awhile since I lived in Houston.
Yes, I think you’re right that its the guys that specialize in punching. However, I suspect that southern ladies have ways of prodding guys to throw punches for them. Prolly by talking about “honor” and stuff like that, and talking about what a “real man” would do.
I suspect that the saying, “Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned,” while it may have had an English origin, may have been used in the South.
It sounds to me like Aunt Betsy is teaching you a better way.
Bob in HI
SnarKassandra @ 136
Not in the least. The Lake is graced by your presence.
SnarKassandra @ 137
You are not rude, Cassie. Sometimes a bit snarky (but that is your name, isn’t it?), which is OK. That is normal behavior in this venue.
PeterK @ 132
PeterK
Was that “you dont use it” saying Cassie doesn’t use good manner or are you talking in online chat in general?
DrDick @ 143
And THAT is why I like it so much here!
PeterK, I see we crossed in the tubes. Please disregard my question.
Loo Hoo. @ 139
well, you may have to join to view – don’t know a way around, absent figuring out my own website.
In these modern times, when two guys get in a bar fight, they just square off and start slugging.
Drunken melees are problems with all cultures that imbibe alcohol. that’s not what I’m talking about here. I’m talking about punching someone in cold blood and in a totally sober setting, simply because of a perceived verbal insult. I’m not talking about some guy who punches another dude for trying to fondle his gf. I’m talking about someone who will punch another in the mouth just because the other called him or a relative a name.
Loo Hoo. @ 97
Do I always? I thought I slip in a few Ma Cheri’s for good measure!!! *g*
My grandmother from West Texas provided quite a contrast not only for the people from the South, but also for women in general. Perhaps this is a little off topic because it relates to a story about a woman, as opposed to a man which is more representative of this thread. My grandmother was born a few years after 1900 and grew up in San Angelo, TX. During the 1920’s she and her sister were flappers that danced and swung all the way to Paris. On her fifth marriage, she had her only child, my father at age 41 in the 1940’s and raised him with my grandfather in Midland, TX. Right about that time, she decided to go into business for herself and opened a women’s apparel store for large and half sizes. She hired an African American woman named Florida to run the store with her. They worked side by side for the next 40 years enjoying each others work, company, and children, waiting for the rest of the nation to catch up.
For that time, she was not exactly your typical woman from the South, let alone from anywhere for that matter.
.
Fern @ 135
The thing is, most people identify with the place they grew up in, or live in. IMHO there is nothing wrong with that, if it’s done properly, by which I mean being proud of the good things about it, but also being willing to recognize the parts that need improvement (and we all have those parts, incl. me) and trying to improve them. That’s real patriotism, in my view.
PeterK @ 151
It’s kinda like being proud of your school and learning to chant something about the Tigers or the Raiders or the Vikings.
RonD @ 123
Good point, Ron. Kinda like being proud of being Japanese. or whatever race. Not much we can do about it, huh? I think people are proud more in the sense of being proud of your football team. Proud of your homies.
Good night all
HTML M #147,
The underlying principle seems to be something like this: “Your statement about me makes either you worthy of death, or me worthy of the statement.”
True?
SnarKassandra @ 109
IANAB, but implicit in blogging, I would think, is that the site has ongoing rights to the material posted while someone is affiliated, unless prior arrangements to the contrary are in place. It would be quite unworkable otherwise…
I assume you know how to deal with the other issue…
SnarKassandra @ 153
Good night, ma’am.
Good Night SnK! HAVE A WONDERFUL VACATION! Not the TRex kind!
SnarKassandra @ 155
Night Cassie – enjoy your time off…
EvilDrPuma @ 157
Pretty sure I am still MISS for another few years. Good night Sir Doctor, or Doctor Sir.
Not a Southern joke, my fellow Arkie. I’m serious. I may be wrong, and I know I’m criticizing my own tribe here, but I mean what I say.
Maybe if I’m allowed to sub here again, I’ll do a funny post in the more traditional S,N! style.
Anyway, I’m going to crash. Thanks for being such a nice crowd, FDLers. Y’all have a good evenin.
PeterK @ 151
I think that for many of us, our identities are strongly tied to a particular place which has shaped us and made us what we are. There is also an attachment to the people and culture we are familiar with. For Southerners, I think there is also a bit of defensiveness about the pervasive anti-Southern prejudice in the US (I know I have some of it). Comes from always being told that you are ALL stupid, racist, violent, and superstitious.
SnarKassandra @ 155
Nite, Mademoiselle!!!
Suzanne @ 105
The tradition of the duel?
Suzanne @ 143
Help!! I’m really getting myself in trouble tonight! I only meant to comment that in fact she (or anyone else who might do it if actually talking to the same person, rather than blogging with them) doesn’t write sir or ma’m online. I don’t regard that as negative in any way at all (and wouldn’t even have thought of it if Cassie hadn’t mentioned it), it’s just a remark on how we converse with each other here. If we were all in the same room, the modes of conversation would be different (and there is nothing wrong with that IMHO, just a matter of social convention). I hope that’s not too convoluted to be clear…
Suzanne @ 4
I want to post an answer to this before we get inundated with the evening commentaries.
The culture of violence that HTML Menken speaks of is a population density dependent phenomenon. It is tolerated where population density is low, and law enforcement is slim to non-existant. So the “cure” is, basically, more people, and more central government.
To take an example, think of the Hatfields and McCoys. They were rural, and in an area where law enforcement was virtually nil. What brought the feud to an end was not any sudden increase in charity in the hearts of the feuders, but (a) interstate business interest in logging the area, and (b) increased pressure by business interests and outsiders, as population increased in the towns in the valleys, for law and order. The feud had its origin in the chaos of the Civil War, and had its end when the dust settled a few generations later when conditions cited above had changed.
Bob in HI
Night Cassie.
Good nite HTML Mencken!
Love the handle, BTW.
SnarKassandra @ 153
‘nite, Cassie!
SnarKassandra @ 159
This is where we differ–I’ve always been acutely uncomfortable about being “sirred,” even though I have no problem saying it to somebody else.
Must say I’m in the Eureka Springs and Ghostman camp.
Have never lived in the South but have seen some very violent cultural settings up North … the “culture” you describe is the same I saw in New Hampshire rural communities, and in one CT city where you needed a scorecard to sort out which ethnic group was beating which that week, etc.
When I was in my teens and very involved in the civil rights movement, it was quite clear to me that while we northerners loved to rail against the south, we lived in equally racist settings … it was just expressed more “politely”
So I’d argue more class issue than geographic … and I am not a fan of the stereotypical argument made in your lines:
HTML Mencken –
Thank you for the food for thought. And of course it should not be viewed in the context of “Southerners are…” with the word “ALL” implied.
There is something very interesting in the historical context of the development of various cultures and subcultures. It’s always tricky to analyze, and fraught with the peril of either leaning toward highly individualized forms of bigotry, or being PERCEIVED as leaning that way.
However, I’m chewing on the whole notion of the “frontier” and its influence on cultural expression. It would go along way toward explaining what I find so alien living here in Arizona — the first place where I ever saw publicly placed official signs requesting that guns not be brought into hospital emergency rooms or public libraries.
I’m originally from the Philadelphia/Delaware Valley region. That region has its own cultural problems, but they are different from the ones I encounter here in Arizona and different from what’s discussed in this article. Of course, Philadelphia ceased to be a “frontier” shortly after William Penn’s landing. He was a Quaker uninterested in war, and initially made great attempts to make friends with the local native population. [Which is not to say, of course, that the natives were eventually treated well…this is just to point out that from very early on, Philadelphia was not considered to be a “frontier town.”]
I will be pondering these matters a good bit, and I thank you for offering up your opinion on the matter.
I am curious, too, how our resident late-night Southern Therapod, TRex, would respond to this line of thought.
Oh and one more thing — I am familiar with brawls breaking out in bars and pool halls in the Philly area. However, the participants were usually quite young (pumped up on their youth “hormones” I dare say) or irrationally intoxicated imbibers (i.e., “mean drunks”) — this is not quite the same thing as Zell Miller challenging Tweety to a duel.
I must say I never ever heard of anyone challenging anyone to duel while I was growing up. FWIW.
Peace to all, and love to all Firepups (whom I’ve missed by not being able to get back here recently).
DrDick @ 24
Note that your “islands of sanity” are cities. It’s a density-dependent phenomenon.
Bob in HI
EvilDrPuma @ 170
I always look for my father when someone calls me sir.
(waving to Mrs K8) always nice to see ya here at late nite, Mrs. K8
Ha! Loo Hoo. Demi is definitely better. Means l’il, no? Li’l Deb. But, but, I thought it was a nogood thing to change one’s handle here, right? Gawrsh, I’d hate to be kicked off. Bad enought to be ignored. tee hee.
Suzanne, I’m totally braindead tonight. I’ve tried six ways to Sunday on your email. Maybe Loo can help me.
Southern Liberals must be very strong people, with exceptional, and very flexible, people skills.
To live in a place where you are at least partly surrounded by rightwing/racist trogolodytes at nearly all times, must be a trial.
I couldn’t do it.
Hell, I live in Los Angeles, and there’s way way too many rightwing asshats here too, IMO.
I suspect, deep-down, America may not survive its own population of wingnut wackos—THEY are the ones who are empowered nowadays (mission accomplished), and sensible people are muffled or scorned.
If the wackos come to kill us someday, does that mean Tolerance failed?
DrDick @ 173
Exactly. I think of “sir” as a signifying an age class that is always Older Than Me.
SnarKassandra, I would argue that you are a “Ms.” now, and you’ll be a “Ms” then too.
Have a nice vacation.
Muzzy @ 100,
Yes, I know what you mean, I’m close to Columbus now.
And then there was the time my old high school (in NM) lost a football game to some high school in ABQ, and we rolled their school bus. (I was long gone, please believe me.)
dmoore, i got your mail and replied. take a breath :) all is good
Blowing a kiss to you, Suzanne! And I always appreciate how you exercise such an even-handed fair-minded approach to moderation.
I think of it as a thankless job, which means I admire you all the more for it!
a few years ago, my former husband and i were in birmingham alabama for a while, we were welcomed into an area not inhabited my many……….hospitality was a competition, all were sooooo freindly to us, hostility was rampant……..the hostilities between people where palatable…….it shocked me……a republican outpost in their area, and they were like sharks around chum…..but at the same time, colliquial things were bonding them, the debs ceremonies, the country club awards, it was a mind-spinning thing, i don’t know how they keep up on all of the rules they followed……..high sect place.
and the tomato trucks at the side of the road, all go there, but don’t think about the people selling them once they go home, or the resteraunts they eat in, where they go, what they do, f you’re poor in alabama with no air conditioning you are screwed…….
i grew up knowing about poverty, went to a work camp for poor people in kentucky growing up, so i would know diversity, i never saw the differentiation between poor and rich so displayed as i did in birmingham alabama. and at the same time, i liked the people, they are just doing as they were taught…….their world is their world, and the others just survive as they can….
the south was way different than anything i had ever experienced, and all of the people i came into contact with tried to explain the differences to me……even worked in the methodist church outreach while i was there…..whole lotta rich people providing services, was scary, really……..digging through clothes, to provide the right sizes, providing id cards, glasses, lunches……the disparity was disturbing…..millionaires, literally, at a church passing out lunches….talking about geology and sciences in one breath and then handling a homeless person in the next……..affected me. i was neither. i was just there by happenstance.
Good night to all. It’s been a nice boatride on the Lake.
With respect to the South, Ah jest adore novels placed in tha South. Read ‘em all the tiiiime.
Big reader, me. Why ah love to write.
Loo Hoo. @ 139
… I felt my ears ringing … *g*
Evenin’ all !!!
We had a Yankee Gooper who punched a 61 year old woman at the polls.
The Pride of NH.
-GSD
Margot – Was you h.s. in Hobbs, Clovis, or Las Cruces ?
SnarKassandra @ 52
Was this judge appointed by Bush? My money sez yes.
Bob in HI
Night PeterK. Let the gentle waves rock you to sleep.
Good nite, PeterK. Best of all possible tomorrows to you.
Thanks, Mrs. K8. Whenever I see a spring bulb, I think of you out there in the AZ desert.
Suzanne @ 182
Well, sheesh. Good. Ah kept gettin’ that strange error message. Ma computer must be feelin’ puny.
And, and…
Bob Schacht @ 187
I doubt you’ll find anyone here to cover that bet. If it wasn’t Dubya, then this one is either a gift from Poppy or Saint Ronald.
Petrocelli @ 186
They must be Beet Red, by now!!! Missed your witty repartee, or at least your feeble attempts at it!!! :P
I have to admit I’m in agreement with the “violence is endemic to Southern culture” crowd.
It was maybe thirty years ago, here in Missouri, that there was a bully sheriff. The bully sheriff was shot, downtown, in the middle of the day. Oddly, no one who was present saw anything that happened, and no one was charged with the crime.
EvilDrPuma @ 193
Hmmm. Rethug judges, the gift that keeps on giving. That is the really scary part of this administration, since there is no way to root out these incompetent fascist ideologues.
HTML, I was gonna but my hands on my hips and stomp my foot… but since you are also a Mid-Southerner, I’ll withhold my ire I’m not gonna mention Jackson was the first modern Dem President, or was the one who came up with the donkey as the party symbol… Nor am I gonna mention Jimmy Carter and WJClinton, two Dems who did not follow your pattern…. you’re a good southern boy, you know these things….. Good article BTW :-)
Shadowstalker @ 195
I remember that.
Good evening my friends. Looking forward to a soothing hour or so in the lake.
TexB @ 198
Welcome.
Hi Betsy!
brendancalling @ 74
I, too, am uncomfortable with perpetuating stereotypes, which is one of the reasons that in several posts on this thread I have tried to shift the emphasis from the stereotype to the situational (population density). Culture may be part of the problem, but there are other factors at play, too.
Bob in HI
Muzzy, I love your grandma. Mine too. Raised in Minnesota, and married a North Dakotan in the roaring 20’s. (Her dad owned much of the land that it now Duluth, but lost it in the depression, of all fuckery.) Anyway, she got divorced, moved with my dad to Hollywood, and eventually back to Minnesota. Pretty gutsy life for those days!
CTuttle @ 196
Oohh … A wiseguy, eh ?!!
Dee Loralei @ 197
Please do NOT drag the monster diwahli jiksini into this conversation in a positive light. He was an unprincipled tool of land development companies and the landed gentry who demagogued the poor whites. He is the spiritual ancestor of Saint Ronnie (patron saint of the brain dead) and Dubya the dim. Oh, and genocidal to boot.
EvilDrPuma @ 179
My first week in Texas I went to the grocery store and the HS kid bagging groceries asked “Paper or plastic maam?” I turned around to see if my grandmother was behind me. Now I think it is expected. My son has learned the “sir” and “ma’am” when he answers a question.
Muzzy @ 149
I love your story!
My grandma was born in Denton in about 1886, I think. She went to Texas Normal School for Women, became a teacher in a one-room schoolhouse, got married to my grandpa, a minister, who had 6 children. His first wife had died in childbirth.
She remembered hanging clothes on the line and a bullet went right through a sheet. I can see her now saying, “Land’s sakes, honeychile!”
She could fix anything, which was good because grandpa couldn’t. Once my aunt’s pet chicken got over-fed, and it couldn’t breath. Grandma cut its …craw? Gullet?…flicked out the excess feed, sewed it up good as new.
EvilDrPuma @ 202
Hiya B !!!
TexB @ 199
Evening Aunt Betsy. Has your company left you in peace yet?
muzzy 151
nice story
Cassie at #27 “I haven’t hit anyone since 5th grade.”
I haven’t hit anyone since 5th grade either and I’m 56. Also, I’m from Richmond originally. So I guess being a male from the South can be trumped by becoming a liberal and adding IQ points (or is it the other way around?)
DrDick @ 211
Yes sir! But now the whole living room is full of the bags and beach toys Cass & her brother are bringing on their vacation.
TexB @ 205
Where did you live before Texas? I suspect the rules I internalized are pretty Iowan, but I don’t know whether there is a larger tradition of which Iowans partake.
Petrocelli @ 205
See, a little more honing, and you just might be able to join us at the Big People table!!! ;-)
Suzanne @ 192
And whenever I see daffodils for sale in bunches in the grocery store (and sadly that short season is gone already this year), I think of YOU!
How are you? You were attempting to sell some property, yes? How did that go? And please forgive me, I’m trying to find your blog in my history file, but it crashed and I can’t get back further than a week ago — would you mind giving a link? I did so enjoy dropping by there every so often whenever I got the chance — to see you and “the cutest dog in the world” (is that the oft-used phrase you use to brag on your lovey pup? I put that phrase in quotes so that my own sweet pupster won’t snarl as she reads over my shoulder.
[Am off to briefly cook a late supper for the over-time-working Mr. K8 who appears hungry….will be back soon to hang out some more with y’all.]
EvilDrPuma @ 214
NYC, where I was far more likely to hear “hey you” or “LADY!”
I, too, was born in the south (Arkansas), and raised only a few miles from it (Oklahoma). I saw this when growing up, and the day after college graduation, I fled. Went to California, where I have been ever since.
The South will never change. How many years have we been waiting for them to get over the Civil War?
Lincoln’s biggest mistake was not just letting them go. How much better this country would be today. I am frankly sick, not just of their racism, but of their overall stupidity. Yes, yes, I know not ALL southerners are like this. But most are.
Enough!
TexB @ 215
Why am I reminded of Robin Williams’ “New York Echo?”
“Hello!”
“Shut the fuck up!”
AlexandriaCynic @ 210
As has been pointed out before, we are not all violent troglodytes, though there do seem to be more than enough to go around. There really is a difference between the South and the other places I have lived, even though I managed to successfully avoid violent encounters after high school.
Immigration Judges Picked on Basis of GOP Ties
From The Washington Post:
By Amy Goldstein and Dan Eggen
Washington Post Staff Writers
Monday, June 11, 2007; Page A01
The Bush administration increasingly emphasized partisan political ties over expertise in recent years in selecting the judges who decide the fate of hundreds of thousands of immigrants, despite laws that preclude such considerations, according to an analysis by The Washington Post.
At least one-third of the immigration judges appointed by the Justice Department since 2004 have had Republican connections or have been administration insiders, and half lacked experience in immigration law, Justice Department, immigration court and other records show ….
Damn Ferriners.
Better build a wall to keep them out!
-GSD
CTuttle @ 215
Sorry Sir, but I don’t do honing … sez so in da holy book … thou shalt not fornicate thyself … *g*
EvilDrPuma @ 221
Now, that’s the New York I remember!!! 8-)
Mrs. K8 @ 173
Mrs. K8 @ 173
Mrs. K8,
Heck, I love your comment. I’m from Wilmington, DE — most specifically from Hagley Museum. And I agree.
Christine
Petrocelli @ 225
707!!!
TexB @ 219
What a shame that the MSM only noticed now.
Texas Passes Bill Requiring Mandatory Computer Recycling
From ars technica:
By Nate Anderson
The Texas House and Senate have both passed an identical version of a bill that would require computer companies doing business in the state to provide free recycling services for those machines. The bill might sounds like bad news for business, but it was actually backed by both Dell and HP.
If signed, the Texas bill would join similar initiatives already passed in more liberal states like Minnesota and California. Robin Schneider, executive director of the Texas Campaign for the Environment, wants Texas to show that a Republican-leaning state can also care about the environment. “Governor Perry must seize the opportunity to be the first Governor of a so-called ‘red state’ to sign a computer recycling bill that requires producers to provide free and convenient recycling for consumer’s old computers,” he said in a recent statement.
The bill (HB 2714) requires computer manufacturers to provide a “reasonably convenient” recycling plan that requires no additional payments from consumers.
….
The Three Stooges, the first performers to lampoon Adolph Hitler on film.
Huzzah!
-GSD
((((mrs k8))))
Sorry, I cannot add anything to your conversation … up here, we consider Calgary as “the lawless South” … *g*
CTuttle, have I got ya spewin’ beer yet? *g*
Don’t forget they were very angry when Dukakis was prodded about rape and he gave an intellectually nuanced answer.
Then there was the finesse and nuance of John Kerry.
They don’t like to feel inferior and those men made them feel very inferior.
But, tying this to immigration, the racism issue is likely to arise when jobs become scarce and immigrants will work on the cheap. That’s one reason we have one of two choices on immigration: keep them all out or open the border wide open, but pay them at least the minimum wage. Anything in between is probably unenforceable and would very likely harm a lot of people.
Of course, a wide open border would be responded to fiercely, but it might ease the tensions over time more quickly than fighting it out foot by foot.
It’s a tough sell in the face of unemployment, but the two problems might be worse later than they are now.
Finesse…I think they feel finesse is for people who don’t know right and wrong.
But, to a large extent their attitude is one borne of their freedom and rural background and feeling of superiority to the slaves. That they were inferior and indeed slaves to the immoral slavery practice still isn’t clear to them. Their uncontrolled feelings appear to be childishness or somesuch, but that will disappear in time as America become more heavily populated and they have to learn to get along with many kinds of people living closer together. It will take time.
Their feelings of racism might benefit Pat Buchanan isolationists or protectionist Liberal Dems, but it really shouldn’t be called on. It should be dismissed as inferior to an open society where everyone, not just Southern White Men, can be free. Again, it’s not the easy sell of feeling your hatred and fear, but it’s better for America.
EvilDrPuma @ 115
Hi, Dr.Puma!
Codes of Honor tend to keep the “peace” where higher authorities are weak or absent. From Sicily to Afghanistan. Its because under those conditions, you really have to know who has your back.
If centralized law and order keeps the peace, then codes of honor tend to become less important. Codes of honor were pretty important in Chicago until Elliot Ness showed up, no?
Bob in HI
Hey, HTML — welcome to Late Nite, them’s fightin’ words!
heh heh
WaPoO chatz tomorrow; questions accepted anytime!
Michael Abramowitz at 11am eastern
Tom Ricks at Noon eastern
Eugene Robinson at 1pm eastern
GSD @ 230
Really? I always thought Groucho parodied all that was ‘good’ about der fuhrer.
DrDick @ 121
Yup. Ezzactly.
Bob in HI
Petrocelli @ 232
Almost! Calgary is truly the Stampede Capital outside of Texas!!! *g*
Bob Schacht @ 230
Among some Chicagoans, certainly; I don’t know enough about the time period to assume it was a general trend.
By the way, the Chicago example would seem to be a counterpoint to your earlier statements about density-dependence.
How are you? You were attempting to sell some property, yes? How did that go? And please forgive me, I’m trying to find your blog in my history file, but it crashed and I can’t get back further than a week ago — would you mind giving a link? I did so enjoy dropping by there every so often whenever I got the chance — to see you and “the cutest dog in the world” (is that the oft-used phrase you use to brag on your lovey pup? I put that phrase in quotes so that my own sweet pupster won’t snarl as she reads over my shoulder.
Mrs. K8 – the cottage by the creek in the redwoods is still for sale – as my mother says, it only takes one – still have my fingers and toes crossed that one shows up soon.
My blog is sadly neglected since I’ve been spending the majority of my time here at the Lake.
Hey Loo Hoo &
demidebbiemoore, who’re ya planning to harass this week? *g*CTuttle @ 238
They really are the wildest party peeple in Canada !!!
nikto at 178
Southern Liberals must be very strong people, with exceptional, and very flexible, people skills.
To live in a place where you are at least partly surrounded by rightwing/racist trogolodytes at nearly all times, must be a trial.
I couldn’t do it.
Hell, I live in Los Angeles, and there’s way way too many rightwing asshats here too, IMO.
I suspect, deep-down, America may not survive its own population of wingnut wackos—THEY are the ones who are empowered nowadays (mission accomplished), and sensible people are muffled or scorned.
If the wackos come to kill us someday, does that mean Tolerance failed?
============
from what i experienced, it was a silent battle for those folks…….doing what they can day to day, but keeping totally silent otherwise.
Hey Petrocelli! How’s it going, eh?
Ma sister’s main squeeze is from up there.
Well, I doano if ma fake southern drawls gettin’ on all y’alls nerves yet, butahm fixin’ ta drag this tarred ole female body tabed na ow. I ain’t e’en had no bare t’nite.
I almost moved to Virginia about five years ago. But, then I met the mister and stayed here. Hope no one takes offense to my pretending here. Jest makin’ fancy like.
Night, night.
Fern @ 127
Oooo, Accents! Doncha love’m!
My first trip overseas (Israel), on my second day there, I’m having dinner at St. George’s Cathedral College in Jerusalem with two elderly ladies nattering away in Cockney. I kept shaking my head to clear the cobwebs, because I *knew* they were speaking in English, but dang if I could understand them!
Bob in HI
Petrocelli @ 242
Doolittle??? ;-)
Suzanne @ 240
Visualization is your friend, Suz. *g*
RonD @ 180
I moved to Memphis when I was 11 and had no idea about the ma’am/sir divide.. When we lived in Buffalo a Ma’am was a Nun or a grandmother, a “sir” was a police officer, a cop or a priest…So, one day in art class, my female teacher asked me a question, and in typical Buffalo fashion, I answered ” Yeah”. She said, “yeah what?” I said “yeah, yeah” shrug. She said “yeah?”, I said ” I mean yes” She said, “yes, what”. She said “don’t you mean yes ma’am”I said ” Sheesh Lady, I said yes, what do you want?! I only say ma’am to people I respect”. Opps. I got hauled to the principles office for disrespect…..But by golly, I learned to say ma’am and sir to any adult who ever asked me a question….That’s the southern in me.. I am unfailingly polite. ( Until I go off )
EvilDrPuma @ 236
I think this reflects the other point about weak central authority. These codes of honor were (and are) confined to poor and marginalized groups in areas without effective police presence (i.e., ghettos & slums). Still exists there in Chicago and all major urban centers (think Chinese Triads or Japanese Yakuza).
Bedtime. Be excellent to each other.
GSD #227,
You mean Chaplin’s The Great Dictator wasn’t first?
dmoore @ 243
‘night ma’am, ’twas a pleasure makin’ yer acquaintance !!!
brendancalling @ 74
Amen, brother.
You-all want violence? Take a walk down South 52nd Street in Philadelphia any evening of the week.
EvilDrPuma @ 249
We’ll try my friend!
DrDick @ 207
Dr Dick, I agree with you, but I had to point out a few southerners who do not resort to physical violence.. HTML never said diddly about economic violence…..
Night EDP, sleep well.
Oh, yeah, Petrocelli. Funny, I think of you thinking of me when I look at my nails.
The really funny part was HE was the one, after we left, sayin’ What the fuck are THEY thinking?
Who to bug next. Got any ideas?
‘Night,EDP!
It’s not Southern per se. Read David Hackett Fischer’s “Albion’s Seed” about the four distinctively different folkways involved in the English-speaking settlement of the US, from Puritans in New England to cavaliers in Virginia to Quakers in Pennsylvania to the folk from the northern borders who went to the Appalachian frontier. Amazing that these different value systems from so small a percentage of our present population remain so alive or even intractable today.
EvilDrPuma @ 141
Good point, and I’m thinking of some examples in Iraq, too. Like where the girl recently got stoned for dating a boy from the wrong family.
But perhaps in your example the key word is “peasant.” Doesn’t that imply a rural (by Japanese standards) setting, where normal law enforcement might be lacking?
Bob in HI
Dee Loralei @ 250
Actually, Jackson was known to employ personal violence as well. Diwahli jiksini, by the way is Cherokee for “Devil Jackson”. He is still “fondly” remembered by the people I work with.
dmoore @ 177
Check your e-mail. You are allowed to change your handle as long as you announce it and use both names for a short while (demi aka dmoore).
Butts Charged With Stealing Toilet Paper
Monday, June 11, 2007
MARSHALLTOWN, Iowa – Police blame a woman named Butts for stealing toilet paper from a central Iowa courthouse, and while they’re chuckling, the theft charge could put her in prison.
“She’s facing potentially three years of incarceration for three rolls of toilet paper,” Chief Lon Walker said, stifling a laugh as he talked to KCCI-TV about Suzanne Marie Butts. “See, I can’t say it with a straight face.”
Workers had noticed the rolls disappearing from the Marshall County Courthouse much faster than usual, Walker said.
Butts, 38, was caught last week after an employee saw her taking three rolls of two-ply tissue from a storage closet, Walker said.
Butts insisted it was the first time she’d pilfered toilet paper, but she declined to answer further questions on her attorney’s advice.
The fifth-degree theft charge, a misdemeanor, normally carries a sentence of less than a year in jail. But Butts could face more time if convicted under the state’s habitual offender law because she has prior theft convictions.
Walker did not know why Butts was at the courthouse, but said that she did not work there.
dmoore @ 256
How about Doolittle, or is he too far north???
RonD @ 250
Nope the Stooges beat Chaplin.
*You Nazty Spy (1940) Moe, in a scary Hitler moustache, becomes the dictator of Moronica in this satire on the Nazis that predated Charles Chaplin’s The Great Dictator. This was an audience favorite: “Why are you Russian around? Quit Stalin!”
Hail, hail, Hailstone.
-GSD
The bad side of that coin is the fact that those same codes of honor demand the death of women by stoning for simple civil rights denied them in the middle east. The codes demand it. I don’t know if that price is worth what order can be kept in that area.
Thankfully the other areas mentioned are not so bad about it.
GSD, if you ever make it to central FL, the drinks are on me.
Shell @ 219
But then we’d have had to build a wall along the Mason-Dixon line to keep out the undesirables. But at least we wouldn’t be called “racist” for doing so.
HTML! I went from S,N! to this blog and didn’t realize it!
They’ll let anyone on this site, huh?
Good to see that the boys let you out…
Ooops, not all of my typos and screw-ups. This:
Should read:
But the Freepers can parse his code, see themselves in the Jacksonian mirror. Reading their comments one can almost hear the “yeeeeeeeeee haws” and “tarnations”.
Sorry, folks. Once again, I’m not used to writing for deadline. Also, as a guest poster, I can’t fix my screwups like I can at my own place.
Anyway, Bob in HI is right about a structural cause of the Southern tendency to violence as being one of population density, or rather the lack thereof. Again, this (as well as large amounts of anarchy and chaos) are all part of frontiers.
I quoted Instapundit above on the subject of Jacksonians, but I left out a part that ties into the frontier mentality: his infamous objectively pro-genocide post cited the American western frontier and what was done to the Native Americans as a model.
As for my fellow mid-southerner Dee Loralei, she is surely right. Yes, Jackson was a Dem and a founding Dem at that — yet it is conservatives who claim his legacy (meanwhile, his opponent, John Quincy Adams, who was for bigger government, internal improvements, civilization) is closer to our political ancestor.
Also, more to the point, in general wingnuts lay claim to the Southern Violence Tradition. Zell Miller spoke at the RNC, after all — and was sternly rebuked for it by Jimmy Carter (who himself is absolutely not of the Southern Violence tradition).
Now I really have to pass out. Night, y’all.
TexB @ 261
Good night HTML. Thanks for the post.
dmoore @ 257
HoJo … and this time take a hidden videocamera !!! *g*
RonD @ 265
Moronica for Morons!
-GSDTexB @ 261
No shit.
-GSD
Night HTML. Sleep well and keep your head down.
I ran thru the comments fairly quick. No one mentioned, I don’t think, that the Democratic senator (Mr. Barron) says he did NOT call the ReThuglican senator, Mr. Bishop, a summabich. And just what the hell does Bishop’s poor dead mother have to do with anything?
The senate was going to vote on censuring Mr. Bishop, but he upped and went on home for the day after reportedly saying, ‘don’t bother.’
Way back when stationed at Ft. Campbell, we’d take off when we had days off during the week, driving all over Kentucky, Tennessee, parts of Missouri, & Arkansas. I remember once we stopped for cigarettes in some teeny place and I wandered into this old, diplidated store and asked for cigs. The man told me, ‘we don’t sell no cigarettes to no Yankee.’ I told him I’m not a Yankee, I’m from out West. He snarled that it was no fuckin’ difference. I’m pretty sure we backed out of that place.
Hear ye, Hear ye. Let it be heard throughout the land that herewith and from this day foreward, the screen/handle/blogoshpere name of dmoore shall be known as demi. Know it, memorize it, brand it on your hearts.
I shall use demi aka dmoore for a period of time which I shall determine.
And, then, maybe Some People won’t think I’m a guy. Maybe. What guy would use demi. It’d be like hey, I’ve got a little one, right?
See, y’all I’m getting too silly. Okay, just a few more minutes, then I’ll join the dog who has already staked out his claim to my side of the bed.
Pentagon Sought $7.5 Million To Build “Gay Bomb”
EvilDrPuma @ 215
Where in Iowa?
Panzy assed Dem shoulda taken it to the agressor and made the person HURT. But, considering what our lame ass Congress and Senate are doing, this Surrender Monkey crap is inevitable.
I haven’t read a single post, but, man, someone smack me, they gonna GET it, full bore and I mean, without mercy.
I’ts called phreakin SURVIVAL!!!!!
‘Kin wussies . . . .
No disrespect to HTML Mencken, but where is our therapod these days (off in the last frontier, I missed any announcements)?
There may be a pink-slip next to the cookies for Lurita Doan.
-GSD
Mutant Poodle @ 279
He returns Wednesday but is probably lurking as we speak.
Ooops, not all of my typos and screw-ups. This:
But the Freepers can parse his code, see themselves in the Jacksonian mirror? Reading their comments who can almost hear the “yeeeeeeeeee haws” and “tarnations”.
Should read:
But the Freepers can parse his code, see themselves in the Jacksonian mirror. Reading their comments one can almost hear the “yeeeeeeeeee haws” and “tarnations”.
HTML, the backstage crew will fix that one for you. Thanks again.
dmoore @ 257
The ‘vision’ was perfect hollywood snark … mindful of your nails while asking casually, “What the F*CK were you thinking?”
All day Friday, I was trying to meditate, but kept imagining you saying that to Issa ! I kept chuckling and could not meditate … *g*
TexB @ 263
The job’s not over ’till the paperwork’s done…
TRex has shown up on every late nite thread since he started his fast – except tonights. Perhaps he has finally buckled down and is working on the book.
CTuttle @ 261
The rankest bigotry.
TexB @ 278
Did the military abandon this weapon after it backfired on them in Abu Ghraib?
-GSD
GSD @ 282
The money line?
Now, I’m not cynical much, but who’s got money on the “ignoring it altogether” option?
Twain @ 111
That’s not a uniquely Suthrun trait, by any stretch of the imagination. Show up outside Parc des Princes in Paris an hour before a Paris Saint-Germain (pro soccer) match, and you’ll see behavior that would be considered way over the top at the Florida – FSU game.
Alcohol testosterone is a volatile mixture, in any language.
GSD @ 285
Somebody finally got around to telling them about the Spartans and the Thebans.
Suzanne @ 284
I think he’s trying to reconcile this post with the southern gentlemanliness of his “ATTACK! ATTACK!! ATTAAACCCKKK!!!!” mantra.
GSD @ 288
It didn’t backfire at them at Abu Graib, it backfired at the Whitehouse and in the House :-P Jeff Gannon and Mark Foley, anyone…?
TexB @ 277
The top Brass must have feared the Back-Blast from it!!! Worried about overly-friendly fire!!! Bwhahaha!!!
Mutant Poodle @ 291
Now, I’m not cynical much, but who’s got money on the “ignoring it altogether” option?
Cookies for Lurita until 2009!
-GSD
From H.L. Mencken’s brutal obituary for William Jennings Bryan:
“…Heave an egg out of a Pullman window, and you will hit a Fundamentalist almost anywhere in the United States today. They swarm in the country towns, inflamed by their pastors, and with a saint, now, to venerate. They are thick in the mean streets behind the gasworks. They are everywhere that learning is too heavy a burden for mortal works. They are everywhere that learning is too heavy a burden for mortal minds, even the vague, pathetic learning on tap in little red schoolhouses. They march with the Klan, with the Christian Endeavor Society, with the Junior Order of United American Mechanics, with the Epworth League, with all the rococo bands that poor and unhappy folk organize to bring some light of purpose into their lives. They have had a thrill, and they are ready for more.”
Inspired by our gust posters’ handle.
Suzanne @ 284
Or…that handsome kissable guy? Hmmm? It would take a lot for him to miss even a drive-by, ya think? I vote for kissable guy.
I’m from the south. Ok. Not the south exactly but New Orleans. This piece really bothers me. It reminds me of the time in the late 1970’s when I asked someone in San Francisco what he thought about southerns. “Slow walking, slow talking and slow thinking” is what he said. It really upset me.
The south is changing. South Carolina is putting in quite a strong showing for Obama. And many of the nasty qualities talked about can been seen in places like the Central Valley in California or in Boulder, Colorado. You can see mixed race couples in Picayune, MS. You can still get in trouble in Modesto, CA for walking down the street with a person of a different color. Saying Southerns are violent denies the many who are moral and kind. It sounds like the same kind of stuff said about Katrina victims. Like they must be stupid to have lived there. Or too poor to know better. Cause you know that the poor are stupid and southerns are violent jerks.
I hate what you said but I don’t want to hit you so hard your whole family will fall down.
Suzanne @ 4
BY KICKIN IT’S ASS!!
Surrender Monkey’s, Surrounded By Surrender Monkey’s.
WE FIGHT BACK!!! (in honor of The Gilly)
tis probably kissing guy but let me fantasize that the big guy is working on a book
for a little while longer please :) i so want to read a trex book
dmoore @ 299
Well, I was working on my book when I felt my ears ringing/burning, so I logged onto the toobz to see what y’all were up to !!! *g*
RonD @ 156
I think it also is related to evangelism. Of course there’s the idea that if I like it then I must insist that you will like it too (whatever it is). But, your statement indicates a person can’t hear a statement and simply disregard it. It is always felt to the bone and that requires a response of some kind. To not respond would make a man appear feminine (since they don’t respond physically as often as men).
This relates to why they’re so fixated on teaching kids specifically what they want them to believe. They feel that once it’s in their heads they WILL believe it. They can’t quite adjust to the possibility that a person can hear about cannibalism or communism or Buddhism or something without automatically believing it. Thus the book burning, so nobody can read THAT stuff.
Of course, now that I’ve told you this you MUST believe and go around telling/teaching everyone how they too MUST believe it. Right?
Mrs. K8 @ 173
I lived in Arizona for 17 years– up north in Flagstaff. The “frontier” concept is a good one. In America, it is almost always a synonym for “lawlessness,” isn’t it?
Yet, Arizona is still a frontier state in its mentality, more than in any reality. Take Congressional District One. That’s the one with Flagstaff, and I think Prescott, too. Liberal, hippie towns in a vast sea of desert, ranchland, and Indian country. So we’ve had a string of Republican congresscritters, despite a vibrant Democracy for America group in Flagstaff, and some pretty good Democratic candidates. And before Janet Napolitano, our first modern governor, one pales to think of her 20th century predecessors: Evan Mecham, for one. Time is eroding my memory of the other dubious characters–Symington? Rose Mofford?
And speaking of frontier, southern Arizona aka the Gadsen Purchase, was the last piece of mainland contiguous land to be added to the Lower 48. Not to mention Tombstone.
And now, of course, there is that border with Mexico that all the immigration-fearers are so hot under the collar about. Sigh.
Bob in HI
Suzanne @ 302
I hope it’s about his family tree … should finally answer what came first … the chicken or the Rex … *g*
Bob Schacht @ 246
A pal & I hitched in England and happened to meet up with a family with whom we’ve managed to remain friends, who live in Bristol. Any time we’ve gone to Wales or, Gawd! Scotland – I’ve had to concentrate because I’m still convinced it’s not English.
I worked with a radiologist who was Egypt and he had this distinct way of saying certain words or phrases and I couldn’t quite get why. I happen to take a course from a woman who was originally from Italy and it struck that he pronounced certain words similarly to how she pronounced them. I was telling him about how I thot he had a similar cadence to one of professors who was from Italy, but was flummoxed because he was originally from Egypt, and damned if he hadn’t attended medical school in Italy living there for some 10 years.
Accents give such character.
MarkH#299-
Dueling isn’t civilized, so I guess we’ll just have to play “quarters”.:)
Well, I’m off to bed. Enjoy the snark and don’t shoot anybody in the face.
TexB @ 200
Welcome! Do you & Cassie work in shifts here at the Lake? *g*
I’ve been trying to catch up all evening, but I keep stopping to write comments like this one, so I worry that by the time this is posted, your hour will already be up before you get to see my welcome!
Bob in HI
Larue, please remember that violence, or threats of violence, are not condoned here at the Lake.
Just a gentle reminder :)
Good Nite, DrDick! Where would you like them shot?
DrDick @ 206
You got that right!
Bob in HI
Dee Loralei @ 247
Much the same happened to me. When I was 12 we spent a year in Florida, and what surprised me was that if a teacher called on you you were expected to answer “Ma’am”? or “Sir?” Finally got the hang of it, just in time to move back to California, where that didn’t fly at all. Good education.
Sleep well Dr D
Sorry for that. Maybe he’s writing his book, while sitting on someone’s lap. One doesn’t have to preclude the other. Well, maybe.
TexB @ 278
I’ll admit. I am simply too leery to click the link. It’s too late for me to read some story about madness coming out of DoD. Those folks must be way over the edge.
Ghostman
larue, how is the sacramento area tonight? i don’t know why i was thinking you were down san luis obispo way…
AlexandriaCynic @ 213
You’re from Richmond? Then can you please explain Monument Avenue?
Well at first this discussion confirmed why I feared moving east, I still have not crossed the Mississippi and I’m living in the borderlands between the south and the Midwest. I also know there is an element truth to the stories, but no more than the outlaw west. you all make me wish for the desert or the mountains of the now lost west.
Hey CTuttle, did I miss any good snarks about this afternoon’s vote on AGAG ?
I think the broader categorization would be traits found in Authoritarian family/tribal/cultural structures, in particular those of extreme patriarchy, the male perogative of intolerant, unquestionable dominance (regardless of logic, intellect, precedent, anything really).
The reason the South presents “stereotypically” in the way it does, imvho, is because the barbarity of slave-holding is still ingrained in many family systems, which are typically very slow to change.
When you own slaves – that’s not an agreement between friends – that’s an enforced imposition of power over others. You don’t see each other as ‘equals’ – The Slave-holder controls the slave, in every detail.
All the War settled was whether the landholder could have slaves amongst his possessions (”those ungrateful slaves…”), but it didn’t change anything about how the operative family dynamic of ‘total control’ was practiced and passed along through the generations.
Ghostman, these fools are complete, total idiots. I’m surprised they have not done the reverse thinking that if one can not pray the gay away, then one can bomb it away? I sure as hell hope not but I don’t put anything past these idiots.
(taking off tin foil hat)
Suzanne @ 317
I live in Sacramento and used to live in Los Osos. Loved it. Most beautiful light I have ever seen.
OT, but some encouraging news. This is why we gotta support places like FDL. Send $$, get as many friends, relatives, and co-workers as you can to check it out, and off the Conglomerate Media teat.
Hillary Clinton fundraiser and friend, Ruppee Murdoch needs to start losing some serious cash. Conglomerate control of “the message” is an integral part of their plan to avoid that pesky Constitution, and maintain their oligarchy. We’re on the verge of restoring the Constitution. We MUST make sure we prevail.
Suzanne #323,
It HAD to be a scam. Somebody saying,” These guys are such homophobes, let’s see if they’ll pay for this.”
Mary McC, my dad lived in Charmichael so I would go up there a lot before he passed away. Never got used to that heat. There is something magical about ocean light fer sure.
Suzanne @ 323
Yep. A “gay bomb”. I’m still shaking my head. Amazing.
Ghostman
You guys are getting the south wrong, there are plenty of Zell Millers here, but there are also plenty up there, especially in New Jersey.(The Mafia)..or Michigan..( The Militias) HTML is talking about the Memphis Mafia,……..And never, ever forget, Texas is NOT the South…….. Southern Living only takes Dallas and a few other east Texas towns….OK is not the south..Eastern Arkansas is.. but West TN is not, though they seceeded and East TN did not….You have to live in, or visit the South to get the modern definition of secessionists, and very few of us will ever go bizarro like Zell.
Memphis is the consistantly bluest part of the state, and even the counties that homed the KKK, voted in ‘06 for a black Democrat. Nashville’s newest “hip” group is for liberal Dems…
I think if you were to take the red parts of the country, you’d end up like Israel/Palestine.. many congruent parts with non- similar centers…..Basically Apartheid for the Republicans……
Suzanne @ 326
I went to Cuesta for years. Used art classes as my studio. I painted Moro Bay more times than I can count.
argosfalcon @ 316
Now lost, because of the water situation?
Ghostman @ 326
Perhaps they were just expecting them to decorate Iraq?
RonD, could be but… I dunno.
Petrocelli @ 320
Very little snark, a whole lotta fury tho!!!
EvilDrPuma @ 238
Good point– but the density dependence thing is a tendency, pushed by a coalition of forces. As we see in Iraq right now, if you destroy the prevailing system of law and order in a densely populated place, what you get is a period of lawlessness until the power structure sorts itself out, and restores law and order. The witless ones over at the Pentagon destroyed Saddam Hussein’s system of law and order, and didn’t really replace it with anything for a while. They then tried to force an alien system of law and order, and the witless ones were amazed that their transplant didn’t work. That’s like trying to transplant a fig tree without knowing anything about soil, fig tree root systems, suitable moisture levels, etc.
But you made a good point, and I appreciate it.
Bob in HI
A “gay bomb”-it sounds like something straight outta South Park.
The torture never stops. Good night, all. You’re still the best.
radiofreewill @ 320
Suzanne @ 323
Quite the opposite – the idea was a chemical agent that would make the enemy gay, so they’d be too busy with hot man-on-man lovin’ to fight. Just as stupid, but more about accretion than deletion.
A gay bomb! Like turning men gay would make them less dangerous. Like there are no gay men in the military now.
Suzanne @ 323
Aren’t officers of war supposed to study history?
Aren’t there enough historical facts to confirm that being gay is as natural as being straight/man/woman ?
Who writes your history books, America?
Chairman Pace disparages gays, and now this revelation … the monkeys are running the circus !!!
good night RonD
Petrocelli @ 241
Harry Reid *g*
The anthropologist in me thinks that that you can take the person out of the tribe but not the tribe out of the person. So lets see, the cultural origins come from some colonial beginning, and was refocused in the 1860’s. Hmm that a bit of time, and yet it has changed very little. How long to change things well in parts of the world these things have been going on for thousands of years.
Petrocelli @ 338
the study of actual history is now prohibited in the US.
Dee Loralei @ 335
Born in the South and lived there until I was 21. I promise you that the women run everything – they are smart and just let the men think they are in charge.
Good night and good luck, everybody…
Mutant Poodle @ 344
Good night MP
“Give ‘em Zell” Harry Reid certainly was not a reader of Steve Gilliard. Otherwise, he would’ve known that “We Fight Back!”
Should be a rallying cry for all of us.
Twain @ 344
Like my momma says “Just let your husband think he is in charge. Manipulate him, honey.” I mentally go running from the room screaming AAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
And we are now at the nature vs nurture side of the equation. Is violence genetic as a survival strategy or is it a learned response?
CTuttle @ 334
I hate to say it but Bush-Lite (Harper) showed more resolve than Harry Reid by firing a member of his caucus who voted against his Gov’t, in a free vote, despite having a minority Gov’t.
I Wish the Dems would be as brave !!!
Suzanne @ 349
It must be a learned response. Seems like when folks are loved and respected they don’t have an urgent need to dominate and hurt.
Loo Hoo. @ 342
… waves to Loo Hoo …
Not Harry Reid … neither you nor dmoore deserve such torture !!!
… now, if you’re suffering from insomnia … *g*
Suzanne @ 348
I am pretty certain that males of many species (all mammals?) fight with each other and butt heads, especially in the presence of females. My son and his friends spent all of Saturday afternoon in water wars with water guns, the pool, wrestling, and occasionally swatting at each other. They’ve been doing this since age 8.
Petrocelli @ 349
Just asking – what were his margins like in his caucus?
I’m out. Pleasant dreams, y’all. Think I’ll go listen to some Jesse Winchester and read some Flannery O’Connor.
I strongly recommend that everyone take the time to read the entire 86-page Fourth Circuit opinion in al-Marri. Well worth the effort.
Suzanne @ 350
Yes.
Gay bomb:
It sounds like we need a randomly selected public oversight group to line item veto garbage like this. But, could they be trusted not to zero out the entire government? :-)
burnspbesq @ 354
good night
And the lost west is because most of the most beautiful spots have go under or are threatened, as someone who was first from Montana and later lived most of his life fighting for California’s environment what I have seen makes me wish I could take spoons to my eyes and wash my mind with bleach, not only in environmental destruction but in a wide variety of cultural destruction.
test
it worked dmac :) thanks
EvilDrPuma @ 9
Exactly.
We have to root it out, and eliminate it.
So far, I see no testosterone for this need.
argosfalcon @ 359
I hate California McMansions. Developers have sucked up all of the city counsels.
Raping the environment is, well, violent. Sort of Southern.
I disagree, Mary McC, raping the environment is so… Republicrook.
Suzanne @ 302
I’ll buy it right now! I miss the snark. Doesn’t he return tomorrow night? Isn’t he a Georgia boy?
TRex is scheduled to return Wednesday nite for Late Nite.
dmoore @ 10
WE FIGHT BACK!!!
OR, you don’t.
And welcome to your world, either way.
How do you wanna die? For something, or, because of something?
Your choice . . .
TRex!!!!!!! I miss his sweet self.
Petrocelli @ 353
Ooh, Big Boy, why dontcha come on over and tell me about it…!!! *g*
EvilDrPuma @ 214
The “larger tradition” may be that provided by the McGuffey Reader. My Mother’s mother was Iowa born & bred, in central Iowa south of Ogden. The prevailing Midwestern settlement pattern was governed by the Township system and one-room school houses. the McGuffey Readers were the Library, housed on a single bookshelf.
As a sign of the power of this tradition, I found a family reunion booklet from around 1916 that contained a metric version of the Lord’s Prayer that was familiar in general content but not in the specific wording. Some research revealed that it was taken, word for word, from the McGuffey Reader. No citation was necessary, because everyone knew where it came from.
The McGuffey Readers were the rural equivalent of the Harvard Five Foot Shelf, containing moralized fragments of European literature– not too bad, if you ignore the racial undertones. But those readers were in the one-room school houses all over Iowa in the first decades of the 20th Century.
Dang. I’m NEVER going to catch up with the end of this thread before its EPU time– are we there yet???
Bob in HI
I guess the 70’s when CEQA was new and my eyes were filled with stars and thought we could save things and over 25 years I watched so much I guess I lost hope.
After his speech today, I’m ready to put Whitehouse in the White House. Might have to set up a Draft Whitehouse site….Hmm….
larue, change can be effected without violence. Not all change requires a willingness to die to attain the goal.
Fighting for Peace seems a contradiction to me.
newtonusr @ 355
I’m not exactly clear as to your question, his party has 124 seats out of 308. There are 4 recognised federal parties as well as 4 Members of Parliament sitting as independents, to the best of my knowledge.
GSD @ 279
Oh, if only!!! But don’t hold yer breath.
Thanks for the h/t
Bob in HI
Petbout, speaking about the chicken and the rex, (had to leave to help my daughter plan a flight to Las Vegas for her 21st bday), my younger daughter had the perfect answer to the question of which came first when she was in kinder. “The egg comes before the chicken, mom, because breakfast comes before dinner.” Made pretty good sense, I thought.
Suzanne @ 373
Working for peace sounds good.
Suzanne @ 13
Personal change is one thing, societal and SACRIFICE upon the part of the masses.
One person’s personal change will NOT change evil we face. And for the MASSES to achieve personal change, and to impact CHANGE, it will take more than one person’s personal change, biblical storytelling and general mytholyogy notwithstanding.
Petrocelli @ 373
In other words, how tough is his majority position if he chucks a couple?
Petrocelli @ 375
His margins were like this.
We’re approaching 400 comments.
Suzanne @ 374
Right you are, Suzanne.
Fighting back…whatever that means, only invites more fighting. I think.
I’m working for change. But, I’m not fighting with anyone. Not today anyway.
CTuttle @ 370
Get your mind of of the gutter, CTuttle … *g*
I meant that Harry’s monotonous drone would cure anyone of insomnia !!! *g*
but larue, change has to start on the personal level. with one person at a time. trying to force change only makes it harder to make real changes.
in order for the masses to change, each person in that mass has to make the decision to change.
it will take all of us, speaking together instead of fighting each other, to make the changes we want to happen happen.
Patrick 4/4 @ 380
i love that!
Patrick 4/4 @ 379
nice
TexB, yeup, and no late late nite post tonight. we will have to make do.
Suzanne @ 383
We need to affect change at the level of family and children.
bonkers @ 373
Gore in the White House and Whitehouse in the Senate … to smackdown the Reps like he did today … what a shame that Harry the Ham had to defuse the wonderful TNT Schumer & Whitehouse filled the Senate chamber with today.
Mary McCurnin @ 386
My own rebel yell.
Loo Hoo. @ 377
Cute. Out of the mouths of babes. Do you get to go to LV too?
suzanne-nice workin’ with someone who knows what the free position means….like your dives, i give them a ten…from a former diver……..
and suzanne, that http is not appearing this time, just name and email addy, let me know if it hung up in moderation.
thanks.
nite all.
newtonusr @ 380
He does not have a majority Gov’t anyways, he has a minority Gov’t, and he still did it. Don’t think I like the jerk … but he showed some spine today … that’s all I’m saying … Harry Reid was behaving like he’s still in the minority.
Pat4/4, I think Suzanne remembers that Zig Attack!!! I remember it quite fondly! 8-)
dmac, nope, no more getting caught. thanks for helping me resolve it (hopefully, once and for all)
CTuttle @ 391
don’t make me stop this car
CTuttle @ 393
It was fun IIRC. :)
Petrocelli @ 392
I’m not fronting for ChickenShit Harry, believe me.
bonkers @ 322
If you want to stall Hillary, contribute some $$ to the Edwards campaign. The longer he remains viable, the more air comes out of the Hillary balloon. And this quarter’s financial report will soon be big news, whatever the numbers are.
Bob in HI
CTuttle @ 395
I’m sure she does. It speaks well of her that my computer doesn’t crash every time I log on the lake.
Hi Suzanne!
RonD @ 37
This whole thread, about the South? And Violence?
Does it somehow precuse the impoverished, ignorant and INSANELY violent of the REST of the nation?
Since WHEN, was Oakland, CA or anyother urban and suburban gang ridden city in CA not a part of this fuckery? Inlcuding a block from where I live?
You can go two blocks to a mansion, and two blocks more any direction to crack houses and apartment complexes run by drug dealers.
Anyone wanna talk about VIOLENCE beyond this Perspective?
Harumph.
400!!!!
Patrick 4/4, my southern mama taught me that revenge is a dish best served cold.
I’m just saying…
Petrocelli @ 390
Claire McCaskill did very well also…Remember the blindfold!
Whitehouse really stood out though and has on other days as well. Might be worth watching and encouraging him to seek higher office. (not sure what he did with with the recent Iraq Supplemental…)
larue @ 401
I agree!!!!!!
bonkers @ 373
He was born with a calling…
dmoore @ 383
SouthernDragon quoted Gandhi the other day, “I’ll believe violence can overcome violence when you show me that darkness can overcome darkness.”
Suzanne @ 404
Hey, I’m from the South, too – Side of Chicago. I prefer mine deep dish.
Loo Hoo. @ 405
And the Senate elders love the guy, with good reason. They put him out front on this and left him there. He makes all of them look better.
Some of my best friends are Southerns.
dmoore @ 383
Are we taking the new upgrade for a spin to see if she’ll do 500?
Are you talking back to me?
Loo Hoo. @ 377
I missed this earlier, Loo Hoo.
Children are so wise … then they grow up, lose their minds and become Republicans !!! *g*
TexB @ 379
And I’m caught up with the comments! Normally, that could mean only one thing: We’re in EPU-land.
But apparently tonight there will be no Late Late?
Geez, no wonder I was able to get caught up.
Bob in HI
Petrocelli @ 412
Aw, it’s not so bad. Many grow up to be dems.
larue, I hear ya. Worked 24 years with a badge on my shirt – I know there are as many reasons for violence as there are people on earth. And, sadly, that sometimes, there is no reason at all.
It is not for me to speak for HTML, but I certainly thank him for starting this discussion. Has been very interesting.
Thanks Loo Hoo. Forgot.
See, I’m already working for change. Ha ha.
Wow, I feel better already.
newtonusr @ 399
Oh I know.
After this afternoon’s sickening display, his family might (or should) disown him.
Loo Hoo. @ 407
I wish guys like Feingold, Whitehouse and Webb were out front more.
Harry is a minority of one dolt.
yep, bob, no late late nite tonight. i guess we will see what this baby can do :)
excellent name change, demi. keep it that way for about 24 hours or so, so that dayshift and others become used to it.
and remember, only one name change. we don’t wanna forget your history here.
At yKos, Harry treated us to his exploits as a boxer (I’m tough). his granddaughter (hippie name) and his resolve to never let up.
We’re so proud now, those of us who sat there and begged for some balls.
Dessert?
bonkers @ 405
Yes, sorry about not mentioning Senator McCaskill, her two- minute insert was like a walk off home run … beautifully timed to then lead into Whitehouse. Then the closer (Homerun Harry) threw the game away.
Whew, all this baseball terminology … and I can’t even stand the game … *g*
yeah, tex, what’s for dessert? a hungry mod is a grumpy mod…
Suzanne – okey dokey artichokey
Petrocelli @ 390
Harry makes a horrible Majority Leader. I think Byrd needs to give him history lessons, remind him of guys like LBJ.
bonkers @ 405
Did you catch him hammering Alvin?
newtonusr @ 423
That is what I don’t get. For a former boxer, he lets HoJo and McConnell treat him like a punching bag.
TDS is ripping the Bush response in Albania. Too funny!
Perhaps he was struck once too often.
Okie, I’m behind….what did Claire McCaskill do that was so good? I’ve been about to give up on her.