It’s been barely two weeks since the President bullied Congress into voting to fund the continued occupation of Iraq and pretended to compromise with non-binding benchmarks that do nothing if the Iraq government fails to do what we have no right to force them to do in the first place. But none of that matters, because it’s already clear the Administration pulled another bait and switch on the American public. And our unquestioning media is going along with it, again, as though it’s nothing unusual.
As soon as the 28 percent President got his funding and split the Democrats from their own base, Tony Snow and Secretary Gates went out of their way to suggest what they would never have said during the debate over the supplemental funding bill: that our stay in Iraq would be like our 50 year presence in Korea (Times Select). It was not the first time we’d heard about permanent bases, but since months before the mid-term elections, the Administration had quietly let that topic disappear from their discussions. But yesterday’s Washington Post article by Thomas Ricks let us know the Pentagon had been thinking “go long” all along. Pay close attention to the Orwellian language and logic.
U.S. military officials here are increasingly envisioning a “post-occupation” troop presence in Iraq that neither maintains current levels nor leads to a complete pullout, but aims for a smaller, longer-term force that would remain in the country for years.
This goal, drawn from recent interviews with more than 20 U.S. military officers and other officials here, including senior commanders, strategists and analysts, remains in the early planning stages. It is based on officials’ assessment that a sharp drawdown of troops is likely to begin by the middle of next year, with roughly two-thirds of the current force of 150,000 moving out by late 2008 or early 2009. The questions officials are grappling with are not whether the U.S. presence will be cut, but how quickly, to what level and to what purpose.
Leaving 50,000 troops in Iraq indefinitely and calling it a “post-occupation troop presence” is blatant doublespeak. Then there’s this disingenuous bit:
One of the guiding principles, according to two officials here, is that the United States should leave Iraq more intelligently than it entered. Military officials, many of whom would be interviewed only on the condition of anonymity, say they are now assessing conditions more realistically, rejecting the “steady progress” mantra of their predecessors and recognizing that short-term political reconciliation in Iraq is unlikely.
So we’re going to be more intelligent getting out than the Bush/Cheney neocon regime was in getting us in? And we’ll be more “realistic” and less dishonest this time, though we’re not allowed to say that for attribution. Uh huh. When Ricks tells us that “short-term politicial reconciliation in Iraq is unlikely,” what he really means is that the surge is failing, because allowing “short term political reconciliation” was precisely its justification and goal.
A reduction of troops, some officials argue, would demonstrate to anti-American factions that the occupation will not last forever while reassuring Iraqi allies that the United States does not intend to abandon the country.
So, if we stay, it infuriates the “anti-American factions,” but we will keep 50,000 troops there to make sure no one thinks we’d abandon the country. And in case you’re worried about what this means for the safety of our troops, consider this:
One official estimated that with only one major route from the country — through southern Iraq to Kuwait — it would take at least 3,000 large convoys some 10 months to remove U.S. military gear and personnel alone, not including the several thousand combat vehicles that would be needed to protect such an operation.
Got that? The Bush/Cheney regime and their neocon war planning geniuses just put 150,000 US troops and billions worth of highly sophisticated weapons into an unwinnable occupation in a hostile country undergoing multiple civil and sectarian wars with no near term prospects of political reconciliation — and there’s only one very exposed road out. The only thing more reckless would be a plan to arm both sides so that when the Iraqis tire of killing each other, they can point their weapons at US troops. Oh, wait. . . .
The rest of Ricks’ WaPo article describes four troop components of the new strategy: 20,000 well armored troops to protect the al Maliki government and its forces; 10,000 more troops to train the Iraqis; a smaller Special Operations force to attack Sunni insurgents and al Qaeda [what was the rationale for needing nearly 20,000 additional troops just for Baghdad?]; and 10,000 or so support troops. Even assuming these numbers bear some relationship to what it actually takes to accomplish those missions, do you notice what’s missing? Remember “clear, hold and build”? Remember General Petreaus’ grand counter-insurgency strategy and the need for US forces to secure Baghdad because the Iraqis couldn’t do it alone? This was the new plan, the one that was finally correct, the one that would “win.” That’s why he was picked, why we were supposed to shut up to give the surge “a chance to succeed.” But it’s gone. When did that happen?
The thinking behind this “post-occupation” force, as one official called it, echoes the core conclusion of a Joint Chiefs of Staff planning group that last fall secretly considered three possible courses in Iraq, which it categorized as “go big,” “go home” and “go long.” The group’s recommendation to reshape the U.S. presence in order to “go long” — to remain in Iraq for years with a smaller force — appears to carry weight in Baghdad, where some of the colonels who led that planning group have been working for Army Gen. David H. Petraeus, the top U.S. commander in Iraq since February.
September will not be an accountability moment, because Iraqi reconciliation is not the goal, nor is protection of the Iraqi population from rival militias. Nothing that was said even last month is operative today, and there’s no one to blame. The Secretary of Defense who helped get us into this mess is long gone; the Secretary of State who’s responsible for the most important non-military part of the strategy is busy being ineffective elsewhere; the National Security Adviser just handed his job to another hapless general, and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs is being replaced because no one in this Administration wants to face questions from Congress. But of course, the conservatives never thought George Bush was one of them.
US troops are being targeted and killed every day, continuing a mission that the Bush/Cheney regime and their military planners have already disowned back in Washington. Why should our soldiers, or we, ever believe anything these people say?
AP photo by Vadim Ghirda, from Salon.
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Rich!
Frank Rich coming up now on Mornin’ Joe
[oh mah gawd…I may have to start givin’ Joe props…]
Dog I hate these lying F*cks!
In an abstract sense, that wouldn’t take much. Sadly, there is nothing abstract about it.
Good morning Scarecrow.
You might want to clean this up:
I assume you mean “nor is protection of the Iraqi . . .
I’ve said since March, 2003, that USer soldiers will be in Iraq until hell freezes over.
Any ‘withdrawal’ will be both bloody and painful. the insurgent/nationalists will make any withdrawal murderous.
The US requires land bases in the middle east in order to extend its hegemony and prevent Chinese intrusions into the trans-Caspian region, and Israel really is too far away from the action to be really useful.
./
Unless Bush intends to remain in the White House forever, won’t future Presidents have something to say about our continued (unwelcome) presence in Iraq?
SusanD @ 6
any future USer prez wikll be/feel constrained by the same conditions.
the need for a USer position in West Asia will NOT dissipate until the competition for resources in the region also declines.
and that’s nagahapun for 50 years…
./
oh, by the way:
good morning scarecrow, et al..
.
SusanD @ 6
Yes they will, but W will have dug a huge hole with no toe holds out of which a new dem president will have to climb. And at that point the death toll will be on the dems watch.
Or to use another unfortunate metaphor the Bush Crime Family has created a huge mine field and the next dem pres. will be airdropped into the middle of it with no map out.
Feeling a bit cynical this morning.
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 7
Assuming, of course, that that is a need and that we can’t can’t develop alternate resources.
Prairie Sunshine @ 2
Pardon my ignorance, what’s Mornin’ Joe?
RevDeb @ 4
Good morning; it’s fixed.
Editing Comment:
Second to last paragraph, first sentence, the grammar is confusing and I think something got lost in translation.
Otherwise, thanks! It has to be pointed out over and over how this “badministration” simply goes on and on – handing out faulty logic like candy.
“it would take at least 3,000 large convoys some 10 months to remove U.S. military gear and personnel alone, not including the several thousand combat vehicles that would be needed to protect such an operation.”
1. I think this is why Sestak voted as he did. He caught hell around here for his vote, but I think he voted from a pure military perspective. I also think our leadership did a poor job in explaining this to all of us.
2. I also think that any Democratic plan (actually, both Sestak and Dodd have a couple of good, pragmatic withdrawal plans) needs to include sound “nuts and bolts” for an orderly, safe withdrawal.
3. Oh, and Scarecrow concludes by asking why should we believe anything coming from the WH? I think the answer is patently obvious.
Ghostman
Mornin’ Scarecrow!
Another excellent post. I want to simultaneously cry and puke!
Hi, RevDeb — Mornin’ Joe is MSNBC’s programming in the old Imus timeslot. Hosted by Joe Scarborough, with Mica Brezynski [spelling doubtless WRONG….] and a screenwriter whose name I didn’t catch. Senior moment, sorry.
This show has the salon side of Imus which is to its credit.
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 7
This is just what I wonder about. If the next (supposedly democratic) president is running on an anti-war platform and SERIOUSLY intends on getting us out of there, to what extent are his or her hands tied by the disaster created by Bush and his minions?
-MS
Morning, Scarecrow!
Unless the occupation fails because no more supplies can get INto Baghdad.
tw3k @ 10
as long as there is a drop of oil anywhere in the region, there will be 1) a ‘need’ and 2) troops to protect it…
if you believe otherwise, you haven’t been paying attention lo these last two centuries…
soooorryyyy bout dat.
Prairie Sunshine @ 16
Thanks.
The only time I watched that time slot on that channel was the 3 days the Stephanie Miller hosted. Wrote to MSNBC to encourage more of that. Obviously they didn’t listen. Hence I have not watched again. Joe is a wh*re. He tries to lean left when following Keith. On his own (in a time slot away from Keith) he is a bat sh*t wing nut.
How’s this for a bait and switch?
“The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.”
to the current:
“A British company has been closed down after being caught in an apparent attempt to sell black-market weapons-grade uranium to Iran and Sudan.” TaaDaaaaa!
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 5
Good morning, America!
May I ask you why anybody would make withdrawl murderous? One just has to tell the other side (whom ever) that the US troops (ALL of them) will move out of Iraq within 8 weeks so long as nobody fires at them. It will be the most peaceful pull-out.
Allow me to differ re. the motivation of the Neo-Cons sending the troops there. The purpose is/was to remodel the Middle East in the very interest of Israel. Just dooesnt seem to work that way.
Have a nice one!
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 19
That is why there needs to be policy/mental shift. IMHO
OT from today’s NY Times. Story on the release of letters with a shoutout to FDL, Next Huraah and Marcy…
congressional hearings weekly update:
the big day is wednesday with Luirita Doan testifying before Henry Waxman’s Committee on Oversight and Government Reform.
i’m still working on what to include and how to present these weekly updates – suggestions welcome. there are many more hearings than those listed here (i go through ever committee’s schedule in the house and senate)… anyone interested in looking for more detail can find it here.
Tuesday, Jun. 12, 2007
9 am
House Armed Services
The Oversight and Investigations Subcommittee will meet to receive testimony on the development of the Iraqi Security Forces.
1:30 pm
House Education and Labor
Hearing on “Justice Denied? The Implications of the Supreme Court’s Ledbetter v. Goodyear Employment Discrimination Decision”
Witness: Lilly Ledbetter
[this could be interesting… see here for background]
2:30 pm
Senate Intelligence
To hold hearings to examine terrorist ideology
[there’s no witness list yet - it is too much to hope it might be robert pape? or will it be some idiot feeding congress bs on “islamofascism”?]
Wednesday, Jun. 13, 2007
10 am
House Oversight and Government Reform
to examine statements made by GSA Administrator Lurita Doan that impugn the reputation of federal officials who cooperated with a Committee investigation into Ms. Doan’s conduct at the General Services Administration.
Witness: Luirita Doan
2 pm
House Armed Services
The Military Personnel Subcommittee will meet to receive testimony on Walter Reed progress review and results of the Independent Review Group.
Thursday, Jun. 14, 2007
10 am
Senate Judiciary
Business meeting to consider [several bills and] possible authorization of subpoenas in connection with the investigation of the legal basis for the warrantless wiretap program.
10 am
Senate Commerce, Science, and Transportation
To hold hearings to examine public safety and competition issues, focusing on the 700MHz auction.
[if you’ve been following matt stoller’s posts on this, you already know how critically important the 700MHz auction is to the future of the internet.]
p.s. fyi – i take requests… if there’s a hearing you’d like recorded as an mp3, it doesn’t hurt to ask. see here for a few previous recordings.
The 50,000 troop permanent occupation has been the plan from the outset. That this is still the plan is not a sign of any change whatsoever in anybody’s thinking.
It’s actually quite disturbing that the response to the failure of establishing a friendly, stable regime that would permit such a base (this would necessarily be an unrepresentative, puppet government because, if only because such military capability would be used in support of Israel, which no representative government would abide) is to just stick with the original plan.
The expected date to draw down to the permanent occupation force was sometime in 2004. There’s no reason to think that this will be possible anytime in the foreseeable future.
The architects of this occupation are in the same fantasyland as the architects of the conquest and stabilization of Iraq.
Good morning Scarecrow!
Your explanations always help me understand this tangled mess better.
I brought solai’s snark up from late nite:
solai @ 382
Collateral to this great post from Scarecrow… Dan Rather’s comparison on MSNBC of the Iraq catastrophe within the context of the long slog against Islamic extremists to the Eisenhower generaling during WW2 wrt North Africa is the kind of point that has the potential to penetrate the thick skulls of the shallow thinkers and lizard brains.
Lookin’ for the passion and synergy this a.m.!
[Ridley, Riddle? Black Hollywood guy is part of trio on M-Joe. MSNBC’s gone for the cultural diversity look…and miraculously found a terrific personality. Lumpen redheaded guy in the background…whazzup with him?]
markfromireland @ 87
This is from another thread, and points to the destruction of the bridges out of Baghdad. They blew up the third one, out of 13, killing three more more American soldiers yesterday. Destruction of the bridges will make it even more difficult to evacuate.
Let’s not pretend this was the result of successful bullying. Rather it was caused by spineless folding [and the lack of imaginative alternatives] on the part of the Dems.
Have the fools in the Administration forgotten that Osama’s ire [which led to 9/11 and assorted other attacks on American installations] was fueled by the present of FAR FEWER American troops in Saudia Arabia? Granted, because SA contains the holy sites of Mecca & Medina, having troops there was more offensive. But US troop in Iraq will just confirm Osama’s [quite true] line about Americans wanting to take over the Middle East, and will help to recruit even MORE terrorists.
PNAC loves it when a plan comes together. See things as they are…not as you hoped. Who’s next?
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 7
Hi everyone!
It’s not the next president(s) who will determine whether we leave Iraq and it isn’t the congress. It’s the American people who decide how long we allow this out of control military-industrial murder machine to continue steamrolling our values, our children, our future, whatever.
We can write letters, sign petitions, call our congresspeople all we want. Until WE take control of the process, until WE call the shots and hold the representative’s nose to the grindstone to act in our interests, we are, literally, f*cked.
Ian’s marvelous thread yesterday was great and it brought out a lot of discussion, but the bottom line is that we are in Iraq for one reason and one reason only: to enrich the profiteers and parasites who live from others sacrifices and the misery of war.
We, as an occupation force, have certain well-defined responsibilities under international law. While the junta in the US wants everyone to believe that Maliki et al are a viable government in Iraq, any investigating international body would decide otherwise and the US would be held accountable for the lack of infrastructure, especially clean water and electricity, lack of hospitals, failure to control the violence around the country, failure to rebuild the country, etc.
That’s why there was such a rush in June, 2004, to get an Iraqi puppet regime in place so that a legal fiction could be created to try to fool everyone into believing that this isn’t an occupation but a peacekeeping operation with us there at the behest of the Iraqi “authorities.”
Until we come to grips with the fact that there’s a cancer in our system that needs to be excised nothing will change no matter who is president or which party controls congress because the parties themselves are being controlled by vested interests.
Rainer Vogel @ 22
two things:
1) israeli requirements are only one part of the reasons why the USers are in and will stay in Iraq. the other is geo-political, having to do with who profits from all that cheap oil, and where it goes. no iraqi govt will ever be permitted to sell its oil to any concern not endorsed by the USer/trans-national corpoRats…
2) the nationalist/insurgents will CERTAINLY attack any USer withdrawal, not for any ‘logical’ reason, but because they both can and must…the internal logic of the struggle will dictate the tactics: you don’t let an enemy get away clean if you can help it…
sorry bou’dat…
I keep saying it and the democrats have to start figuring this out;
they HAVE to deal with the republicans, the republicans are MORE then willing to throw the president under the bus IF they think that will help them remain in office through the next election cycle
we can deal, we can guarantee a few of them no legitimate challenge from a democrat, we can promise them some pork that will help them secure their continued tenure in an election
time to hold our nose, time to do what needs to be done, we need some republicans to get on board
one of these is hagel, we can definately get him…there are others and hagel will tell us who they are
it’s 15 minutes to showtime, lights have flickered and they are calling us for the prologue
tiz time for the democrats to deal cuz pretty soon no deal will mean anything at all
if the president attacks Iran he will do it through martial law, he will declare congress and senate suspended branches to be re “enabled” when the “war” is over (read never)
time to deal
Scarecrow–
Why can’t they retreat to the north, rather than to the south? Seems to me that the Kurds are less likely to shoot at withdrawing Americans, and there are NATO bases in Turkey, aren’t there, that the Americans could withdraw to?
masaccio @ 29
and of course, by selectively bombing bridges, the insurgents/patriots effectively channel ALL USer traffic into paths that they may more easily attack…
.
1) israeli requirements are only one part of the reasons why the USers are in and will stay in Iraq. the other is geo-political, having to do with who profits from all that cheap oil, and where it goes. no iraqi govt will ever be permitted to sell its oil to any concern not endorsed by the USer/trans-national corpoRats…
You know, this just has never made sense to me. Oil is fungible. The world oil market doesn’t care where the oil comes, only what the oil’s sulfur content is. Sure, there are bilateral oil deals, but that just has the effect of removing balanced supply and demand from the world oil market.
egregious @ 27
Yep. The NYT article about arming the Sunni insurgents in the hope they’ll only attack al Qaeda is in the main post under “oh, wait.”
Jackaroyd @34
With the massive amount of equipment we have in Iraq, it looks like the only way out is through a seaport. Driving that much equipment across Turkey is not feasible. We don’t have the kind of heavy duty airstrips we would need in Turkey, and the cost would be enormous.
hello everyone
Scarecrow, thank you for pulling this all together, it’s stunning, it’s just stunning.
thank you to the mods for releasing my comment @ 25 on the weekly congressional hearings.
refresh your screens if you want to see it.
selise,
How would you feel about making your name link the one to the current hearings list. Once word gets around, that would be the go-to place.
Just a thought.
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 33
I disagree with this.
When the Marines left Beirut in 1983 they were not attacked as they moved along an exposed roadway to the beaches.
When I left Vietnam as part of the last Marine unit in Danang, we escorted helicopters through the streets to the harbor. Not one shot was fired although we were completely exposed.
Once the occupier leaves there is no more need for attacks unless the occupying force indiscriminately attacks the populace as it leaves.
The Iraqi resistance would stand aside as we left and then they’d continue their internecine battles once we had gone.
jayackroyd @ 35
If it came to that, though the Turks didn’t allow us to use Turkey to go in. It we really had to retreat under fire, I assume a lot of the troops would be airlifted out, leaving a lot of the heavy equipment behind. But I think the idea behind the huge permanent bases is that we can stay there and defend them.
Its cynical but I think they will use the war to win the election.
Great post, now I wish we could do something about
it.
Lou Costello @ 30
WOW
Many thanks to:
twolf – for the libby letters linky downstairs. Sweet!
selise – for the hearings update.
scarecrow – another brilliant post, thank you.
one thing that been worrying me is how many of the our D presidental candidates buy into the whole orwellian “post-occupation” force concept? it’s been hard for me to tell…
richardson call for complete withdrawal – where do the other candidates stand?
Don’t forget that the big event today will be when the Senate tries to have a no-confidence vote on Gonzales. I read somewhere that the Dems may not have enought votes to shut off debate.
Yesterday, Kyl said he’d vote against cloture, arguing that “no confidence votes” were not in our constitutional framework, so he’d vote on the motion not to have the vote. Clever. He refused to express an opinion on Gonzales.
jayackroyd @ 26
I agree. This was part of the original plan, and I think you could probably find them talking about it years ago. Didn’t they say things like, we have bases in Germany, so we’ll likely have bases in Iraq?
I guess the plan is now that the troops will be there as an occupying force instead of as guests of a Democratic country, as they meant it to be.
RevDeb @ 42
i like it. thank you.
done!
Scarecrow says: Yesterday, Kyl said he’d vote against cloture, arguing that “no confidence votes” were not in our constitutional framework, so he’d vote on the motion not to have the vote. Clever. He refused to express an opinion on Gonzales.
* * *
Yep. And where will the last vote for cloture come from? JoeLie.
With each passing day, I fear that even a new dem president and control of Congress cannot get us out of this mess. Because the republican mouthpieces would start to be shrill about our (meaning by them the dems)not having the courage to stay and fight. And OF COURSE the weak kneed dems in Congress (yes Joe, you) would agree.
This war will never end. And a new dem prez., especially if Hillary (looking heavenward for help) is the prez. She would love to prove her mettle by continuing this war. This is death by a thousand cuts, and Bush isn’t feeling any pain I do not believe. But our soldiers are.
I am still furious with the dem leaders for not recognizing this, and think Jane’s letter to Reid yesterday should be a full page ad in the New York Times.
/end of rant
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 33
You may of course be right. Especially since soldiers on all levels know that a retreat or withdrawl is by far the most difficult operation on the book. But what is the logic next step? If you assume that withdrawl may (?) be bloody, staying there certainly will be bloody.
So- it would be better to face an end in desaster than a desaster without end. (excuse my humble english). Dont you think?
Elliott @ 46
yeah, WOW
selise @ 48
Those of you interested in Richardson’s proposal, which is to pass a Congressional resolution deauthorizing the war — and arguing that it’s not subject to veto because the Constitution gives Congress the exclusive power to determine whether we go to war — take a look at Siun’s post last night.
I think that the Ricks piece is one big fat lie.
do the math. 3000 “large” convoys, 150,000 troops plus their equipment. That’s 50 troops per convoy, plus their equipment. It sure as hell didn’t take 3000 “large convoys” to get 150,000 troops into Iraq — and they were fighting an organized army. (Hell, anyone in decent shape could walk out of Iraq in well under two weeks to Turkey, Saudi Arabia, or Kuwait.)
Then, of course, there are the over 500 C-130s that the Air Force has. IMHO, an orderly withdrawal of all the troops and equipment could be accomplished in two months, tops, if you put your mind to it. Drive the armored vehicles out — fly everything and everyone else out.
Morning Everyone,
To my mind, one of the important differences between the previous quagmire of Vietnam and today in Iraq is that the people are prevented from seeing the horrors of war. The most evil and successful thing the current regime has done is prevent these messages from reaching home in the most obvious ways: seeing dead American bodies and seeing live and wounded American bodies.
To address the secondary category first–I know that there are soldiers returning home in some areas with missing limbs, but plenty of them are staying in the armed forces and some are being returned to combat duty with prostheses. I also know that people are being affected by the deaths, but they aren’t being shown.
What percentage of the population sees ABC’s weekly list on Sunday? What percentage of the population sees these people as real? The refusal of allowing the coffins to be seen or to attend the funerals of dead servicemen and servicewomen by our jerk-in-chief has been successfully swallowed by the MSM as some sort of respectful obeisance to the dead.
Without the force of death and destruction staring people in the face, it is difficult to get them to understand any semblance of the truth about Iraq and question these focktards in a serious manner.
My Uncle was a victim of presidential spin in Vietnam–he and his buddies were sent as pilots constantly into unsafe areas just so the government could say: “We have XXX number of planes in the air today.” Gradually the unit was losing pilots and it was eventually his turn.
I feel like I am losing my battle for my sanity because as an historian I think it is important for us to learn from the past: I don’t think that this administration has learned anything good from the past and I am not heartened that it will serve as an evil benchmark of what not to do because I fear that point won’t come soon enough to make a difference for my preschooler’s generation.
Sorry for all the randdomness–great post Scarecrow!
P.S. Hi Prairie!
NPR was interviewing conservative voters in the midwest today. Solid republicans. They hate the war. Some of them are peeling away.
The people want out now. I don’t know when it will happen. I was hoping that September would be the start of the end. But maybe not. Very discouraging.
p.lukasiak @ 57
You wonder what it would actually take if they were serious. I thought it was interesting that from the time they knew the “surge” was the plan, it took them nearly six months to move just over five combat brigades — just over 20,000 troops — into Iraq, even though the Administration said time was critical, this was essential for success and success was vital to the security of the US.
masaccio @ 38
What equipment are you talking about? Seems to me that the massive stuff is all permanent construction.
Another big difference between Iraq and VN is that we had no enormous embassy being built in Saigon.
Selise–thanks for that list.
I think some enterprising soul needs to start turning the “I don’t knows” of the admin lackies into a spreadsheet.
I’d do it myself, but when I get back from vacation tomorrow I have to get my summer mythology class planned and move into my new office.
Looking forward to Lurita potentially twisting in the wind…
bg @ 62
Agreed. Wholeheartedly.
The building of these permanent bases, was this done with funding express to that purpose? Or did Congress give the Pentagon some money and the administration chose to spend it on permanent bases?
How involved was Congress in BushCo’s big plan originally?
bg @ 62
No but we had one already there, we called it Bunker’s Bunker. We also had huge bases at Long Bihn, Cam Rahn Bay, Da Nanh, Qhin Noin, Pleiku. . .
james @ 43
i agree that the iraqi resistance would be unlikely to attack usa troop during a real withdrawal.
but the al qaeda associated people would not – i think their strategy has been to get the usa to stay in iraq and afghanistan until we are so weakened that we are not able to help prop up govs in saudi arabia (and maybe pakistan and egypt).
don’t know how effective they would be… but it’s not something to ignore.
I think that the time it took to get the extra 20,000 troops into Iraq was primarily a function of the lack of troops (and their equipment) that was deployable.
Selise – thanks much for the weekly schedule. I understand the Senate vote on Gonzales will be scheduled to occur mid-late afternoon, just in time for the evening news.
my biggest concern is that we just have no farouking idea about how badly, how irremediably, how irretrievably we fucked up when we allowed the fascist/pnac/zionist cabal to invade iraq…
we just have no idea…
.
I’ve sensed a certain demoralization in Progressives concerning Iraq; in part a reaction to the failure of timelines, and maybe Cindy Sheehan too. But this is a time we can’t falter and must redouble our efforts. Though it’s an absolutely painful experience, I make a point to read Juan Cole every day.
Where to go from here? In effect, we have been blindsided by the ’support our troops’ issue Other kinds of pressure must be found. I hope the deauthorization bill gets real traction.
Some other ‘wild’ speculations: A permanent Congressional inquiry staff stationed in Iraq? A citizen’s committee stationed there? A non Iraq funding bill that could be held up? More Contractor investigations?
And I think we need (at least I do) become better informed about the blue dogs. I note that barbinmd at Kos has been on this. maybe some of us can help. Ditto liberal Republicans.
Compelling as is the entire Administration 85-ring circus, I hope we can keep a laser beam sense of priority on Iraq. I don’t have to tell you why.
You wonder what it would actually take if they were serious. I thought it was interesting that from the time they knew the “surge” was the plan, it took them nearly six months to move just over five combat brigades — just over 20,000 troops — into Iraq, even though the Administration said time was critical, this was essential for success and success was vital to the security of the US.
I’m with Paul on this. (In fact, I lifted my Turkey question from a post of his on Swampland). I think the reason the escalation took so long was because it took them that long to find the manpower and get it prepped. IAC, this was also a charade. The ISG report made it clear that Bush had to do *something*. There are only two somethings available–more troops or fewer troops. When offered those alternatives, the choice Bush made is that one you’d expect him to make, because leaving=losing.
However, the fact that this is being discussed, at long last, is a good thing. Now if the punditocracy will stop just repeating what Bush says, but actually starts doing some arithmetic, and thinking about what a permanent occupation of Iraq would mean, then we might be able to stem the hegemonic tide.
Elliott @ 45
Be careful who you listen to……TRUE LIES!
congressional hearings weekly update:
the big day is wednesday with Luirita Doan testifying before Henry Waxman’s Committee on Oversight and Government Reform.
Time to get out those cookies in honor of Lurita.
Any word on congress pursuing the DoJ scandal?
Another sad legacy from George and Co.’s way of doing business is that I don’t believe anyone any more: not the newspapers, not the talking heads, not the TV, not my co-workers, not the church, and not the internet! This is an awful place to be.
“We don’t have the kind of heavy duty airstrips we would need in Turkey, and the cost would be enormous.”
Actually, the C-130 is designed for (and is consistently used in) situations where the “heavy duty” airstrips are not available. Because they are propeller-based, and not jets, they require much shorter runways, and their landing gear is designed to take a great deal of punishment.
Lou Costello @ 72
WOW
Elliott @ 76
yeah WOW
correction @73. I forgot the vote. But seems some more sunlight should be shining on the Monica/Sampson/Gonzales scandal and its tribe of Karlbots, claiming “terrorism” suspiciously coinciding with every major political crisis for ChimpCO.
if you listen closely, the people are not opposed to the war…
they are opposed to losing the war, which is what is happening now…
and we–the People–have no absolutely NO farouking idea how badly, how irremediably, how irretrievably the pnac/fascist/zionist cabal’s iraqi wet-dream fucked things up, and will continue to fuck things up for the imagineabe future.
.
At least we have the ‘Independent MEDIA’ to watch out for us. *WINK
p.lukasiak @ 57
paul – have you listened to this excellent interview with wayne white? part of it is on what it would take to do make a well executed withdrawal (and it’s not two months). would love to have your take on it, if you ever give it a listen. it’s an hour and 43 minutes – so i’m not expecting it, though *g*…
but for anyone who’s interested in hearing from someone who has studied what an orderly withdrawal would take (including bring out our iraqi allies)… i highly recommend this podcast.
from the intro:
p.lukasiak @ 76
Throw down some psp and jam!
p.lukasiak @ 75
There’s a world of sh*t going on with the Turks. Who in ChimpCo would have predicted that ye old Turkish/Kurdish conflict would have figured into this whole mess? The brass there like Saddam just fine. I think I had those questions at the beginning of the war.
Elliott @ 65
It is because of this that I do not trust any of the serious presidential candidates’ commitment to withdrawal. At the very least, the sitting senators had to know that this was the plan because they voted on the bills that appropriated funds for these bases.
It disturbs me greatly that none of them said “Hey!! Waitaminute! These “enduring bases” are clearly intended for a long term occupation by 50,000 troops.”
I think the reason that all the candidates have left wiggle room (yes, including Richardson) is that they may well intend to stick with the original plan. This means, of course, no representative government in Iraq is possible, because it is incompatible with a permanent occupation.
I’m also deeply concerned that there is a Beltway consensus on this question–and nobody’s telling us because the know how unpopular this will be. So what they’re doing now is slipping it to us gently.
We need to make some noise about this, IMO.
Lou Costello @ 79
heh, we need a new KILL UR TV campaign.
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 80
Oh and where’s the contingency plan? I hear accommodations are sorely lacking in other countries for Iraqis. Where are the Visas?
THIS IS NOT NEWS
The whole POINT of the Bush-Iraq war was to establish American bases. To Bush, the insurgency and troop deaths are a minor annoyance (a comma) because they do NOT interfere with the primary Bush goal of establishing permanent bases. Bush has NEVER said he would leave Iraq. I challenge anyone to find ONE statement where Bush said we would leave. Doesn’t exist.
selise @ 80
browny @ 89
Heck of a job Browny!
mui @ 79
From today’s WaPo0 How the trio stacked the immigration judges with hacks and incompetents who were Repub operatives. At the very end of the article is a bit that an Hispanic woman who has a lot of experience in the field as a prosecutor filed a civil rights action as these are supposed to be civil service positions htat were not opened up as required. She’s won the first round.
jayackroyd @ 85
I don’t trust Beltway consensus either.
1. The military views exit via Turkey as a no-go. Turkey is unreliable and would, generally, disfavor granting permission.
2. Airlift: good on paper, but not good on pragmatics. Those C130s need down time for usual maitenance and so forth. To neglect is sheer folly. The air crews also need rest. Finally, consider how easy it is for the bad guys to shut down the airport. 3 mortar shells on the runway shuts the whole thing down. Our troops then are sitting ducks.
3. Ground withdrawal: always remember, you need force protection along the way, back at the staging area, and even down at final destination: Kuwait. A better model to reflect upon would be Somalia. We needed 6 months to get less troops out of there.
Ghostman
dakine01 @ 92
Is there a procedure for getting rid of bogus immigration and civil rights judges?
I don’t think they have a clue how to get out of Iraq even if they wanted to. In addition to the troops they have to extract 100, 200? thousand civilians and mercs. I don’t think the Iraqi’s will stand and wave; there are too many dead and tortured friends and relatives. Revenge on the defeated and withdrawing enemy will be the number one goal.
anyone remember Joe Wilson was the first person to suggest that we would have trouble leaving Iraq as a military mission?
he predicted loss of life and equiptment
man, how on target is this guy?
Ghostman @ 94
Especially if we plan to take any of our shit with us. I can see the choppers being pushed into the South China Sea like it was yesterday.
BTW, was the bug out from Somalia a ground operation?
Steve @ 96
iirc, white said that it’s at least 100,000 – because not taking them with us would mean leaving them to almost certain death.
Is there a procedure for getting rid of bogus immigration and civil rights judges?
Elections
perris,
yeah, “we” “won” the “war”.
i should have said ‘people are not opposed to the “occupation,” only to the tactics of it, which it seems is a consumate clusterfark…’
yeah, the world’s largest, most powerful, most expensive, best equipped army defeated the dregs and remains of a third-rate, third-world army utterly bereft of an airforce or anti-aircraft munitions/ordinance.
and in the process, including the occupation, that third-rate country has, for most practical purposes, destroyed that Army…
.
raven @ 97
Exactly.
Ghostman
So what happens now? Any ideas Dakine?
Somalia:
But whatever disaster awaits us, we won’t be burdened carrying the images of it in our hearts and in our heads, will we?
Didn’t the US gov recently ban journalists from photographing the troops, am I remembering this right?
And the Iraqis are trying to ban photographs of the car bombings:
29 May 2007 All American Patriots
note: I really don’t know anything about the source, “All American Patriots.”
old gold @ 100
No before elections, like impeachment? Is it possible.
mui @ 103
Oversight and elections.
NYT article cited above, talking about blogger reactions to the Libbby letters, mentions someone named March Wheeler. Anyone ever heard of this person?
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 101
Regardless of the tactics there are a number of people who oppose the occupation.
but the long term 50k troop deployment in Iraq hunkered down in American not-permanent-but-perpetually-used bases in Iraq IS the basic democratic party plan also, at least for all the candidates except Richardson. Hillary slipped up and out right endorsed it several months ago. Dems will be quite silent on this and left blogostan will be out there by itself objecting to the plan. “Redployment” when used by most democrats refers to this plan or similar movement of troops to near-by positions to protect the oil.
.
old gold @ 100
If the lawsuit claiming these people were hired illegally, outside civil service rule, wins, there ought to be other ways to kick them out — like withholding funding for their positions.
raven @ 98
So, basically, we’re there for an indefinite amount of time? Our GIs are stranded with no logical or safe way to retreat? Fuckin’ brilliant! Oh, it’s brilliant if the objective was anything but ever leaving there. Every military person who went along with this is traitorous. Period.
mui @ 106
As things stand at this moment, probably not. Even though most sane/rational/semoi-intelligent people understand that crimes have been committed, with a fairly even split in the Senate, nothing will happen unless and until the proverbial “smoking guns” are found and even then there will be the apologists that will continue to insist it is only politics as usual and that a consensual BJ and adultery in the oval office is far more destructive to the Republic than lies and war.
mui @ 105
for ’cause’, i imagine: corruption, utter incompetence, etc…
anything that resembles a ‘purge’ of political appointees–no matter how political their appointments–will be portrayed (in the corporate state, corporate media are state media) as mere “Democratic” political thuggery…
…
Scarecrow @ 108
:)
selise @ 99
Selise, I get the feeling that our congress is not even interested in forming some plan for Iraqi refugees. I wish there was some public debate on this.
It is obvious that none of you are veterans of the Texas Air National Guard and are therefore not capable of understanding the complicated military strategy now underway in Iraq that will lead to victory, democracy in the Middle East, and rock bottom gas prices.
Scarecrow @ 111
Yes!!!
kdh22 @ 111
yup
Brought to you by your friends at the Dept. of Short, Obvious Answers…
pluege @ 110
i think you’re exactly right…. except that even in left blogostan we’re having a hard time accepting it and figuring out what to do about it.
This is the only thing I can argue with in your spot on characterization of the state of things in Iraq:
I believe “all sides” instead of “both sides” would be more correct – there are not just two sides in the Iraqi civil war. You hvae your “Iraqi government”, you have Shi’ite anti-govenment forces, you have Sunni Ba’athists, you have foreign insurgents, and I’m sure I’ve left something out. (And that’s not even counting the Kurds and the Turks.) And they all want to target us, to a greater or lesser degree.
Badwater @ 117
Badwater
Snarkalicious! And so early!
dakine01 @ 113
Gosh, that sounds just like Joe Lieberman.
selise @ 99
One to two hundred thousand “out sourced” people associated with the US military..no one talks about or knows how many South West and South East Asian construction workers who are building the massive US bases in Iraq. These poor bastards are brought to Iraq by labor suppliers and are essentially slave labor. There are likely hundreds of thousands of these people and I don’t think KBR or the Kuwaiti or Saudi construction companies are going to get them safely home.
Until Congress steps up to the plate and challenges the President on some of the old lies, like the ones that got us into Iraq in the first place, the Administration is going to keep doing it. Why wouldn’t they?
Congressional leaders know exactly what’s going on in Iraq, so the “bait and switch” was targeted primarily to the public. It was a failure of the Dem leadership to not publicly call out the Bush administration’s long-term plans in Iraq prior to the vote on the war supplement. Pelosi and Reid are getting beat by a 28% president, and it’s beyond embarrassing.
Balad Air Base
not the first time (from the post)
mui @ 95
impeachment
1. Mr. Badwater: yes, but Commander Guy never allowed even ONE NVA unit to make it across the Red River into my beloved Texas. All hail the bravery of Commander Guy!!
On a wee more serious note,
2. I’d encourage all to study the Raven post on Somalia. Essentially, it took us THREE months just to get some six thousand troops out safely.
3. I’d forgotten all about withdrawal of civilians. That of course, muddies the waters even more, and makes the whole process of withdrawal much, much slower.
Ghostman
Balad Air Base
not the first time (from the post)
Everyone say good morning to Christy, who has a new post/thread upstairs.
and my personal favorite:
Balad Air Base
not the first time (from the post)
TiredFed @ 128
impeachment
So people are worried about the political fallout. I worry because immigration judges can stand in the way of asylum seekers. Given the amount of refugees this adminstration has caused, I feel something has to be done.
This proposal is just more lipstick on a pig. No doubt the true believers like Kagan actually belief this mouthwash, but the Pentagon brass surely do not. A smaller military force in Iraq is unsustainable because if we can’t defeat the resistors to our Occupation with 150,000 troops, we surely can’t defeat them with 50,000. In my view this is all PR designed to make it look like the next Democratic administration pulled defeat from the jaws of victory. Never forget, this is a PR-based political administration. Nothing real matters, only the perception. They are preparing the stab in the back explanation of our miserable defeat in the Middle East.
Badwater @ 117
thanks bad, I needed a laugh this morning.
in the ‘immigration’ climate, this is especially a difficult problem because if you thought letting a bunch of mexicans into the country caused problems, imagine throngs of Iraqis clamoring for rights and benefits…
fuukin nightmarish…
since 2003, iirc, the US has let fewer than 3000 iraqis emigrate to the US…
I do NOT understand why seeing Tony Snow and Robert Gates speak the idiocy of comparing Iraq to Korea, while they suggest that the bloody misery which george bush and the GOP have unleashed on Iraq should be viewed in a “50 year” context, bothers so many intelligent people.
It was music to my ears. :o)
Early Monroe, when he had Scruggs and Flatt playing with him…
Alecia Nugent, with that incredible, twangy, edgy, voice…so honest that she makes all of those millionaire country divas sound like a bunch of hookers standing out on a corner, squabbling over a “john”. :o)
It’s the music of the spheres, to watch the people responsible for the:
“Nightmare on Haifa Street”
slowly but steadily turning into gibbering idiots, in front of our very eyes. :o)
Scarecrow; you seem to have a bedrock of common sense, that temporarily deserts some of the staff here.
The REASON that george bush’s poll numbers are swimming with the tidy-bowl man, is because Snow and Gates, the latest in the revolving door koolaid-and-snakeoil salesmen and saleswomen, are saying things like that “50 year” committment bullshit. :o)
I would like for all of the staff on here to use their prodigous computer skills to keep track of this talking point and let us know how many of the republicans up for election or re-election in 2008, are using it in their campaign speeches. :o)
Did any of you see that Colin Powell just called for the closing of Gitmo?
That’s pretty big, to me. And it’s a nifty little knee to the groin, to have the man who was bush’s Sec. of State, and a former chairman of the J.C.’s at that, lay that on bush.
I think Powell understands just how shitty things are getting in Iraq, and he understands the fact that they are going to get shittier yet. And most of all, he understands that things are going to get so politically wild and crazy over the next 17 months, that, ahem…”anything can happen”…
Even to a man who was exquisitely recorded running that warpimp dog-and-pony show at the U.N.4-plus years ago. :o)
Y’all relax, and stop trying to force Pelosi and the democrats to singlehanded extract george bush’s nads from the bench vise, while replacing them with their own.
Sadly, and cynically, this thing is going to have to ripen. There is nothing for it. It’s an either/or situation. If the democrats CAN pull the plug and unilaterally force troop withdrawals, without the signatures of the assholes who created this misery being on the legislation, they will INSTANTLY become responsble for what is coming down the road in Iraq.
And it aint going to be the joint Mesopotamian Factional Chorus singing “Kumbayah”.
And when the denouement of the soap-opera starts airing, the names on the credits are still “Produced and Directed by George Bush and the Republican Party.” And the voters know it. :o)
At this point, about the only thing we can do, is NOT let them take their names off, while we insanely put ours on.
Morning gang. Fresh thread, if you want one.
Badwater @ 117
No but my last 6 months in the Nam was in a NG outfit from Rhode Island that got called up after the King assasination. Maybe that accounts for my brilliant military mind!
raven @ 138
I feel really bad for this kid I know who is in the National Guard. He doesn’t think he’ll get sent to Iraq. Apparently they’re being offered border duty as well.
“…this is all PR designed to make it look like the next democratic administration pulled defeat from the jaws of victory.”
Knut! Too bad you couldn’t post this in pulsating day-glo pink caps.
Because, in those 21 words, you described what the “war on terrr” is now ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
About.
Good morning everyone, late as usual.
Thank you Scarecrow. Didn’t help my headache, but your posts are always MUST READs ;->
Sugar to help the medicine go down:
Our resident Hooded Warbler has been serenading me from just outside the (open!) back door, through the whole read, comments & all.
to the future together… one wingbeat at a time, sigh… ;->
I feel really bad for this kid I know who is in the National Guard. He doesn’t think he’ll get sent to Iraq. Apparently they’re being offered border duty as well.
I read last week that fully half of the people in the military have not, and will not, got to Iraq or Afghanistan.
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 136
Well you know I know at least a few Vietnamese who became staunch Republikans. (It’s a point we try not to argue.) I chalk it up to that old-guard anticommie thing, even though I think it was legislation supported by Carter & Kennedy that granted permenant residency. They still think Ford was the one. Maybe we can convince the Republikans they might have new converts.
raven @ 141
Thank the G*ddess!
I really don’t think the Somalia experience is the least bit analogous to Iraq. Somalia was literally in chaos by the time the UN withdrew its troops.
blockquote>
Well you know I know at least a few Vietnamese who became staunch Republikans. (It’s a point we try not to argue.) I chalk it up to that old-guard anticommie thing, even though I think it was legislation supported by Carter & Kennedy that granted permenant residency. They still think Ford was the one. Maybe we can convince the Republikans they might have new converts.
A few! Shit, check out Orange County
James at 43:
A terribly-belated tip of the ol’ fatigue hat from me. Thanks for your service. Marine.
joel hanes @ 146
Roger that! I think they call them “covers”
p.lukasiak @ 144
And Iraq is in what?
On getting out of Iraq eventually. We will leave (if it is physically possible) when the Stalingrad situation we are almost in becomes sufficiently obvious to everyone that retreat is the only option outside surrender. I was afraid it would always come to this, and it may well. We do not have the upper hand on the ground in that part of the world. The bases were intended to project American power; instead they reveal American weakness.
raven @ 146
Err, See? (I have to laugh a little.) The cards may be up in the air partisan-wise for new Iraqi Americans as well.
mui @ 150
Yea and wait till they crank up the “stab in the back”.
raven @ 153
Oh g*d, I know. But it’s the right thing to do. I’m sure 100,000 will be a vocal community in the US: Stab in the Back, you left us blah blah. I’d rather see that then genocide, personally.
“The Federal Reserve’s greatest nightmare is that OPEC will switch its international transactions from a dollar standard to a euro standard. Iraq actually made this switch in Nov. 2000 (when the euro was worth around 82 cents), and has actually made off like a bandit considering the dollar’s steady depreciation against the euro. (Note: the dollar declined 17% against the euro in 2002.)
“The real reason the Bush administration wants a puppet government in Iraq — or more importantly, the reason why the corporate-military-industrial network conglomerate wants a puppet government in Iraq — is so that it will revert back to a dollar standard and stay that way.” (While also hoping to veto any wider OPEC momentum towards the euro, especially from Iran — the 2nd largest OPEC producer who is actively discussing a switch to euros for its oil exports).”
…Saddam sealed his fate when he decided to switch to the euro in late 2000 (and later converted his $10 billion reserve fund at the U.N. to euros) — at that point, another manufactured Gulf War become inevitable under Bush II. Only the most extreme circumstances could possibly stop that now and I strongly doubt anything can — short of Saddam getting replaced with a pliant regime.
“Big Picture Perspective: Everything else aside from the reserve currency and the Saudi/Iran oil issues (i.e. domestic political issues and international criticism) is peripheral and of marginal consequence to this administration. Further, the dollar-euro threat is powerful enough that they will rather risk much of the economic backlash in the short-term to stave off the long-term dollar crash of an OPEC transaction standard change from dollars to euros…
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/RRiraqWar.html
Oh g*d, I know. But it’s the right thing to do. I’m sure 100,000 will be a vocal community in the US: Stab in the Back, you left us blah blah. I’d rather see that then genocide, personally.
I was watching a rerun of the 10,000 Day War and there was President Thieu talking about how we “cut and run” on them in those exact words.
raven @ 143
Raven, then why are some going back for a third or even fourth tour?
I read last week that fully half of the people in the military have not, and will not, got to Iraq or Afghanistan.
Raven, then why are some going back for a third or even fourth tour?
I know, it’s fucked up.
Well, I guess the good thing about this situation is I know I’ll have financial security when I retire 12 years from now… and heck, by then maybe Iraq won’t be a COMPLETE clusterfuck!
You know that “Personal Responsibility” that Republicans are so fond of touting when talking about the poor?
I would like to see it applied to every soul who ever voted for George W Bush.
We can take my tax dollars to pay for entitlements and theirs to pay for this dumbass foreign policy.
SusanD @ 6
They intend for only the front face to change not the control of the NeoCons. They are entrenched and will assassinate anyone who gets in their way. Machiavelli was never so scary as the NeoCons.
A friend of ours who I have known since she was in 6th grade enlisted in the National Guard after she graduates High School this month.
Her now 87 year old single grandmother adopted her and her sister when they were 2 an 3 years old. The mother’s substance abuse and legal problems removed her from any real possibility of a family relationship.
This girl has excelled against any realistic expectations, but not enough to garner significant financial aid.
She is exactly the kind of person you would want to attract in an all volunteer armed forces.
Motivated, over acheiving, determined and strong.
But these are the people being misused by our current foreign policy.
HON. RON PAUL OF TEXAS
Before the U.S. House of Representatives
February 15, 2006
The End of Dollar HegemonyThe agreement with OPEC in the 1970s to price oil in dollars has provided tremendous artificial strength to the dollar as the preeminent reserve currency. This has created a universal demand for the dollar, and soaks up the huge number of new dollars generated each year. Last year alone M3 increased over $700 billion.
The artificial demand for our dollar, along with our military might, places us in the unique position to “rule” the world without productive work or savings, and without limits on consumer spending or deficits. The problem is, it can’t last.
Price inflation is raising its ugly head, and the NASDAQ bubble– generated by easy money– has burst. The housing bubble likewise created is deflating. Gold prices have doubled, and federal spending is out of sight with zero political will to rein it in. The trade deficit last year was over $728 billion. A $2 trillion war is raging, and plans are being laid to expand the war into Iran and possibly Syria. The only restraining force will be the world’s rejection of the dollar. It’s bound to come and create conditions worse than 1979-1980, which required 21% interest rates to correct. But everything possible will be done to protect the dollar in the meantime. We have a shared interest with those who hold our dollars to keep the whole charade going…..Most importantly, the dollar/oil relationship has to be maintained to keep the dollar as a preeminent currency. Any attack on this relationship will be forcefully challenged—as it already has been.
http://www.house.gov/paul/cong…..021506.htm
We’re in Iraq to maintain the quid pro quo of US dollars for oil trade currency and toprevent OPEC from switching from US dollars to Euros. The question is what happens to our economy if and when the dollars are no longer the world currency in oil trade? Will it become worthless paper and how does that impact our way of life?
I know what happens when the rupiah is devalued because the currency has no clout, but what about the dollar? Why should that be any different for the dollar?
raven @ 66
Ahhhh….history.
Cam Rahn Bay built by Texas-based Brown and Root after it helped finance LBJ’s numerous political campaigns; Danang, same company, Qui Nhan and Pleiku were Boy Scout camps compared to the size of what’s being built now.
The common denominator? The military-industrial-complex that benefited from the murder of JFK in Texas is still benefiting today with the help of Texans, Bush and Cheney.
I get so tired of saying this over and over, but it really does all go back to Dallas, 1963 and all it takes to see the hands behind the plot is simply listing those entities both human and corporate that have gained since that terrible day.
This conversation will be continued by our kids and our grandkids unless we stop the killing machine in its tracks and that means ridding the Democratic party of people like Emanuel, Hoyer, Carney, Biden, Clinton, and anyone else who refuses to stand up to this cancerous growth on our society.
QuakerGirl @ 164
Since 1945 the dollar has been the global oil transaction currency. These dollars are recycled from oil production to the US as Treasury Bills and assets in US stocks and real estate, which is a substantial portion of the financial market. The EURO becomes the alternative currency to nations wishing to switch.
Now for the difficult part… although the Asian Times writes a fairly “idiot-proof” description. In 2002, the US debt was $6 trillion against a gross domestic product of $9 trillion. Global economies have, since WWII, captured dollars to service foreign debts, and accumulated dollar reserves sustain the exchange value of their own currency. The world’s central banks hold dollar reserves equal to their currency in circulation. The more pressure to devalue a currency, the more dollar reserves are required. This makes each economy dependent upon the US dollar, or known as dollar hegemony, constructed mainly by oil — in other words, oil producing nations historically only accepted dollars, until the EURO. But with this currency game, the US essentially owns the world oil trading market for free, and allows the US to build its debt based upon credit assets they don’t physically own. With The United States in control of Iraq, oil trade reverts to dollars.
http://www.thinkandask.com/news/thedollar.html
The party is over for us if the euro replaces the dollar.
Thank you James @ 165!
‘I get so tired of saying this over and over, but it really does all go back to Dallas, 1963 and all it takes to see the hands behind the plot is simply listing those entities both human and corporate that have gained since that terrible day.’
That, too, is/has been my theory.
And, thank you, Marine, for your sacrifice. I’m glad you’re still alive.
kdh22 @ 167
No, thank you.
It’s nice to have someone agree with that line of reasoning.
And I’m glad to still be here, too, but I never expected to see us devolve to this.
raven @ 149
Exactly! Covers, and our fatigues are called utilities.
Raven, where were you and when?
I was in I Corps from Quang Tri in 1969 finally ending up in Danang in 1971, in and out of Laos numerous times and beaucoup time spent in the A Shau Valley.
Economist commentator Sonja Ebron wrote, “An OPEC switch from the dollar to the euro would bring a quick and devastating dollar and Wall Street crash that would make 1929 look like a $50 c*sino bet.” This prediction was understood by the Clinton administration, but the Bush administration took action to boost the petrodollar.
RockPaperScizzors @ 170
The Deciderer majored in Partying not Geo/Political Ecomomics, in case you hadn’t noticed. /s
kdh22 @ 171
Yes, you are correct but we are ALL partying with him as long as the US dollar remains the de facto world currency. I’m NOT defending GWB, I’m just saying the we all need to face a reality check in that the United States gets to party on with low interest rates, worl consumer of cheap goods, etc…as long as the dollar remains as the petro dollar.
‘as long as the dollar remains as the petro dollar’…hence, perpetual conflict and chaos in the ME. This is the only way for BushCo to ensure that our dollar remains advantageous to their industry.
kdh22 @ 171
…with a master’s degree in Crazy-Making. As much as I appreciate the analysis of the internation CF of the Chimperor, it still boils down to just crazy-making literally on a global scale. He can’t let anyone else, including Petraeus, “know” anything. He sets everyone up to fail. That’s our Bush!
Another brave and great post by Scarecrow!! thanks.
It wasn’t just Bush..
..who played bait and switch with the voters.
Does anyone seriously believe our new Democratic Congressional leaders weren’t in on this?
It’s a matter of public record that Steny Hoyer has personally fought to keep that Iraqi oil law in as a benchmark. And wherever there’s oil, you’ll find American troops.
But Steny and his pathetic gang of Emanuelles used an earlier and dirtier bait and switch tactic to remove the Iran provision from a March spending bill, “…in order to insure an easier passage for the troop withdrawal provisions.”
So now we have no Iran provision.
And no troop withdrawal.
Just oil.
And I as a voter hold the Democratic Congress, not Bush, personally responsible for those irresponsible decisions.
Elliott @ 40
They’ve gotta burn all that military ‘junk’, so they can justify spending gobs more money to make somebody rich and to use that money-resource, so Dems can’t use it for actually benefitting Americans — who would just go out and vote for Dems again.
In short, they don’t want good government because only Dems know how to do that and because it’s not profitable for the Repubs.
BTW, I like the idea that blowing the bridge(s) is part of a plan for our evacuation (and a Black Hawk Down attack from Iraqis/AlQaedis) rather than setting up a Dien Bien Phu kind of disaster. At least I would rather hope it’s the former, however awful it is to think our leaders would create a disaster for our own troops.
kdh22 @ 167
So,…name names (individual and/or corporate)!
The REAL fight isn’t over the dollar or euro; it isn’t over America vs. oil countries; it isn’t over political parties and it isn’t over America vs. Europe vs. Russia vs. Asia. The REAL fight is here in the good ol’ US of A and it’s between the Rich and everybody else in the world. They want an economic model which allows them to rule the world and we, a small minority in Left Blogistan, are urging for something a little less lopsided and a little cooler (for summer) and a little more friendly (for when we have friends over). The Rich just want power and wealth and they don’t really care who they have to kill to get it. Historically when there are individuals or groups who behave that way the ‘people’ get together and treat them like rabid animals.
I personally don’t prefer a revolution as it’s bloody and destructive in every way. But, still, to get together politically and to fight the Rich (and their political mouthpieces like Dubya) takes a lot of effort and time.
Currently they’re holding our military as hostages, threatening to let them be slaughtered if we the people don’t let them continue to have power. Of course, we’ve all seen the movies where this happens and somebody saves the day to get the bad guy(s). But, that doesn’t mean the hostages get away safely and it doesn’t mean a lot of violence isn’t done.
How to do it all cleanly, without bloodshed? Talk a lot, vote, stuff like that. Don’t give up and remember it’s them causing the violence, not us. We’re not the bad guys and we’re not initiating violence or the wasting of wealth.
Perhaps after the war Dems oughta make the Rich pay for the war in taxes and take away the unbelievable profits corporations have made from the war. If they wanna throw a party they should pay for it.
Yoo Hoo, it’s the bases. We are going to man at least one of the four (I think) large remote airbases. These things will hold planes and bombs and missles and tanks and MRE’s and be a forward air base which has strategic significance beyond even the Gulf all the way to China and Russia. Well first things first, Iran.
If the Iraqi government objects…………….Oh yea, what Iraqi government? You think there is going to be a real Iraqi government in the next decade or so? . Oh my sweet innocent child.
Hillary and Obama are already on board to keep the bases, not in so many words of course. No president will ever abandon these bases. They are the one thing we can point to as a victory, besides ousting and killing Saddam. Abondoning these bases will not be allowed by the military, ever. They are jus toooooooooooooooo sweet.
Rapier, and how are you going to supply the bases when you don’t control the highways?
Is one of the “bases” going to be the green zone?
Because I was under the impression that if CentCom goes into hunkerdown mode out in the boonies, the green zone will become the world’s bestest mortar-training range.
And when the brits leave (and they ARE leaving, as we speak) if junior wants to keep that Kuwait to Baghdad highway open and functioning, as it goes past Basra, etc., down south, it’s going to take bodies.
And, there’s always that little problem wiht the repubs trying to run for office with 4 even semi-permanent “Fort Apaches’” under pretty consistent harassment. I don’t think that at this point, the voters are into decades of attempted occupation. Very soon, they may not even be into months of it.
The new bases are going to be in Kuwait and the Kurdish north…maybe.