(Welcome to FDL Book Salon, where today we are privileged to have Murray Waas and Jeff Lomonaco online with us to discuss The Unived States v. I. Lewis Libby. As always, please keep the discussion on point. The Salon today is being introduced by Jeff Lomonaco, an assistant professor of political science at the University of Minnesota. He became interested in the CIA leak investigation via his interest in how democracies go to war, especially how wars - and the Iraq war in particular - are justified in public debate. JFT)
On behalf of Murray and myself, I'd like to thank Jane, Christy and Jim and the whole FDL crew for the opportunity to participate in the Book Salon.
The principal aim of the The United States v. I. Lewis Libby is to present as accurate and accessible a record as possible of the trial of I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby's trial on charges of obstruction of justice, perjury and false statements stemming from his and others' role in blowing the cover of CIA officer Valerie Plame Wilson. The book amounts, I believe, to the single best record we have thus far of the conduct and character of the most powerful and the most secretive Office of the Vice President in the history of the United States. The trial and grand jury testimony show a somewhat beleaguered OVP intensely focused on responding to Joe Wilson, but unaware of much of what Cheney and Libby themselves were doing separately from the others, most notably planning to disclose classified information to New York Times reporter Judith Miller on July 8, 2003.
It is also an extraordinary portrait of the Bush administration at the moment of its initial unraveling in July 2003, as it went into a crisis of integrity and credibility over its war in Iraq from which it has not yet, and presumably will never, recover. Libby's notes introduced into evidence recorded the senior staff meetings where Karl Rove, Stephen Hadley and others sought the most effective response to Wilson as well as to a CIA determined not to shoulder all the blame for the infamous 16 words the claim that Saddam Hussein had recently sought uranium in Africa. And then-White House spokesperson Ari Fleischer confirmed what had long been suspected: that the very dramatic press conference on July 7, 2003 the day after Wilson published his op-ed criticizing the administration at which he backed off, for the first time, the State of the Union's 16 words reflected the uncertain decision of the administration to no longer stand behind the most important speech the President gives each year. (p. 150)
It was at lunch that very day that Libby told Fleischer, the White House spokesperson, that Joe Wilson's wife--whom Fleischer believed Libby called "Valerie Plame," though he wasn't entirely sure--worked at the CIA, indicating that the information was "hush hush" and "on the QT," precisely the kind of juicy news a press secretary might slip to a reporter. Right now the controversy over Libby's conduct is focused on learning this week whether or not he will go directly to jail and, especially, on whether or not President Bush should and will pardon Libby.
Needless to say, if you haven't been paying close attention, the trial book is the best way to determine what you think about that question. But I suspect that's not something that applies to most readers at FDL, which has stayed admirably focused on the CIA leak investigation all along and provided historic coverage of the trial itself. (I noted what an event in the history of the blogosphere FDL's liveblogging of the trial was here.So I will talk about the substance of the book more generally.
The bulk of the book is an edited version of the trial transcript, carefully cut down from its original size of nearly one million words to a more manageable and readable length, along with the most important and illuminating of the extraordinary documentary evidence presented at the trial. Murray has simply owned this story since the beginning with his ability to get sources and documents no one else can. The book has an excellent introduction entitled "The Last Compartment" which emphasizes what I think is at the heart of the case: the compartmentalized effort of Vice President Dick Cheney and Libby, his most important adviser, to respond to Joe Wilson's criticisms of the OVP over its role in publicly justifying the Iraq war in part by disclosing to reporters that Wilson's wife worked at the CIA. We also offer a variety of editorial aids to making your way through the transcript.
Simply as a legal event, the trial was extraordinary. A defendant who was the most powerful adviser to the most powerful vice president in history. An impressively no-nonsense and judicious judge. A federal prosecutor whom the judge called "one of the most scrupulous prosecutors I have had appear before me" (p. 89) and whose ranking as "undistinguished" by a Bush Department of Justice apparatchik evoked a nation-wide derisive guffaw. A defense team of some of the best lawyers in the country, the kind most defendants can only dream about having. (One of the real pleasures of working on the book was following the incisive questioning and distinctive rhetorical performances of the lawyers.) A jury about which the judge said, at the close of the trial, "I can't say I have seen a better group of jurors who, obviously, conscientiously listened to the evidence and went about the business of deciding this case as instructed." (p. 536) A parade of witnesses composed principally of powerful government officials and the most prominent journalists of our time. This was our criminal justice system at its best and most dramatic.
In light of special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald's determination that he does not have discretion to release a public report of his investigation, the transcript of the trial is the closest substitute we are likely to get for such a report of the course of his investigation. The epigraph to the book is a line from Fitzgerald's absolutely extraordinary rebuttal closing: "You know, there is talk about a cloud over the Vice President. There is a cloud over the White House as to what happened. Don't you think the FBI, the Grand Jury, the American people are entitled to a straight answer?" (p. ix) (The epigraph in fact leaves out that opening colloquial "You know," which I actually rather like.) Fitzgerald was, of course, talking in the first instance about the context of the investigation itself and Libby's appearances before the grand jury. But there is no doubt that we are entitled to a straight answer, and as far as Libby's conduct goes, the record of the trial is as close as we are likely to get.
Whatever the case, let me note that it was a pleasure and an honor to work with Murray. And we're both looking forward to answering any questions of yours we can in comments.
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uno! hello all!
Welcome, Murray and Jeff.
Happy to be here to try to answer any questions.
Hey hey James
Gentlemen, do you feel that Mr. Libby deserves either a pardon or clemency? And what do you see as consequences of his being given either?
AAlfred Kelgarries @ 5
As I understand it, getting a pardon or clemency isn’t really a matter of desert. It’s kind of a lucky break from the executive exercising pure discretion.
As for consequences, it’s hard to know. Bush is deeply unpopular, but I tend to think a pardon or clemency would still be politically problematic - except for with his base, which is currently unhappy with him for his criticism of the base’s stance on immigration, so would probably appreciate a pardon for Libby.
Murray! Great to see you again. I have your book and really appreciate the long hours that must have gone into preparing so much so quickly.
Sorry if I’m supposed to know this: Is this the same Jeff who comments at the Next Hurrah? If so, hi, and congratulations.
Hello Murray and Jeff!
Do either of you have a theory about who the “them” are that Harriet Grant was referring to in her infamous statement when the verdict was handed down?
Thanks so much for joining us today, and for this excellent work (added to my Amazon cart with a click on the link at upper right!)
Just a quick note to our distinguished guests; if you suddenly can’t see posts you’ve made or your browser seems to “hang”, please try refreshing the page completely; that usually fixes it.
Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. The formatting issue is my fault. Sorry, James! Hopefully it can be fixed, but it’s entirely my fault.
Welcome Murray and Jeff! Just want to say that I am so very glad to know that there are still true reporters and journalists roaming in the best traditions of investigative reporting…
Murray! Enjoyed your interview with Amy Goodman the other day!
Is there a flap with Jason Leopold? If so, what is it about?
Hi Egregious–
Thanks thanks. We worked hard. But Jeff worked harder on this than me!; and our editor worked really hard to get it done by Libby’s sentencing.
Anyways…
Any reason to expect this is going to turn out any different from Iran-Contra in terms of Scooter and anyone else really suffering any consequences?
If you had to explain to David Broder why the Richard Armitrage story is misleading, how would you do so?
I’ve been too busy to read everything from every blog lately, but it seems the general overview is there are people who think there will be a pardon and those that won’t. What do you two think?
TeddySanFran @ 10
Great question, one I’ve wondered about myself. Neither of us know the answer, but it strikes me the most likely answer is just generally those who participated in going after Libby - Fitzgerald, the Democrats, the system, whatever. It was probably just an expression of aggrieved anger. Of course, it would be more interesting if it was, say, the White House which, according to the defense’s opening, sacrificed Libby for the sake of Rove. But I tend to doubt it.
How will your book be promoted, are you going on radio and television, book tour?
SaltinWound @ 9
No need to apologize, since you’re not supposed to know this. Thanks, though!
And by the way, if you’re wondering why I’m here despite the fact that I’m not on the cover of the book, I sort of get the Trotsky treatment there - but I’m on the title page!
Hi Raven–
Things could end up very similar to Iran-contra if President Bush pardons Scooter Libby. The Iran-contra investigation by then special prosecutor Lawrence Walsh came to an end when the first President Bush pardoned everyone. It remains to be seen whether there is going to be a pardon in this case.
But there is one big difference with Iran-contra in that Oliver North’s conviction was over turned because North had testified to Congress and that tainted the prosecution. In this case, there are no congressional testimony issues.
NewsClues @ 17
For what it’s worth, I can confirm that both exist. One of the threads here yesterday is a case in point, as is my blog. There are some good arguments either way, I think.
I’m curious, to read the authors’ reactions, too.
Jeff, I’ll vouch for you. You are indeed on the title page.
Hey you guys have an excellent customer review at amazon.
What is your take on Walton’s footnote re: the “pro bono” work of the Bork crew? If this goes to the circuit, what are your guesses re: Sentelle, Silbermann, et al?
Will you be on C-SPAN or did I miss it? If so, when? How do you plan to outreach to the general public?
Slothrop @ 16
Welcome Murray and Jeff. I’d also like to hear a reaction to Broder’s article and also to the “fallen soldier” op ed in the WSJ.
Hey Egregious:
Do a review! We could use a second one.
LOL.
Thanks for answering my question.
Have either of you explored the difference between a commutation and a pardon? There seems to be commutation noise about (in the WaPo) and I wonder if one would leave us high-and-dry as a pardon.
Also, how do you think the pardon chat goes down in the West Wing? I presume Fred Fielding has W well-isolated from the pardonseekers, after John Dean’s reminder that pardon-talk can be impeachable. Will Cheney pay attention to Waxman’s request that he recuse himself (snort~!) ?
Slothrop @ 17
The basic problem with Broder’s column in that regard is that he appears not to understand that Libby did in fact disclose classified information about Plame to reporters, evidently with the intention of having it published. He failed insofar as Judith Miller and the New York Times did not publish the information before Novak did - and Libby testified in his grand jury appearance that he simply did not realize that Miller was on a kind of probation at the Times because of her problematic reporting on purported WMD-related programs in Iraq before the war. (Of course, Libby testified that he was trying to get Miller publish information from the secretly declassified October 2002 NIE, not about Plame.) But as Fitzgerald demonstrated to the jury’s satisfaction at the trial, the investigation was not just of the leaks to Novak, but rather possible leaks of Plame’s CIA identity to reporters not limited to Novak.
Furthermore, Broder goes on to assert that there was an absence of an underlying crime. Fitzgerald has made clear that Libby’s lying under oath made it impossible to determine whether Libby - and the man at whose direction he may have been acting, Vice President Cheney - had the requisite knowledge and state of mind for Libby’s disclosure of classified information to have been a crime, and one that he should and could prosecute.
It seems there has been only a handful of other reporters who even got close to the underlying story, and none besides yourselves with an emptywheelish grasp of the details. What do you see as the most under-reported or misunderstood/misrepresented facts of the trial by the national media?
Hi Despairing:
I think Judge Walton was being facetious when he made the comments that he expected all those high powered Washington attorneys and power players to offer their services to his court when he needs them.
Extraordinary comment by a sitting judge about the disparity of justice in two Americas– one that Walton has seen by trying a case like the Libby case and trying street crime and drug cases, which he did as a local Superior Court judge prior to his ascending to the federal bench.
I understand the appeals court to which Mr. Libby will appeal is known for “right wing” rulings. Do you think that they may in fact overturn his conviction due to their political views?
So, in a sense, Broder’s use of the word “sideshow” is hypocritical because he fails to see the Armitrage bit as a sideshow in itself.
Hi Murray, hi Jeff.
Sorry to be late, fixed most of the formatting issues. If you refresh it should be okay now.
Hi Scarecrow,
Too many to count. The pundits are far worse. Being part of the Washington punitocracy means never having to say that you are sorry or worry about being wrong.
One that everyone here already probably knows is that Valerie Plame wasn’t covert. That was put to rest forever in the most recent filings.
The other is that because Armitage gave out the name that everyone else was blameless, or there was no bad intent by others.
Fact be damned should be the motto of the press sometimes.
Hey Jane!
How are you doing? I am writing a column about Steve Dunleavy. Can I email or call in the next few days? I hung out at the bar he gets shit faced at just about every night after work. lol.
Congratulations, Jeff and Murray. I’ve a question. You got to observe his case closely in reviewing and editing and analyzing the transcripts. Is there any thing or things you wish Fitzgerald would have done differently?
Scarecrow @ 31
Murray’s the ace reporter, so I feel comfortable seconding your point about his reporting. As for the under-reported or misunderstood facts of the trial, I’d say 1)the role that Bush’s secret authorization to Libby, communicated via Cheney, to leak the NIE played in the case; 2) President Bush’s potential role in the chain of actors who took up Libby’s cause when he wanted the White House to clear him publicly in the fall of 2003, as they had cleared Rove. This was noted by none of the coverage, as far as I can tell, possiblly excepting, of course, the amazing emptywheel’s liveblog. The defense asserted during some legal wrangling that Cheney did not directly intervene with Scott McClellan to get Libby publicly cleared; the President was in that chain somewhere. Nothing ever came of this, but it certainly seems worth some follow-up investigation by the press. It’s covered on pp. 244-46 of the book.
Let me add that Robert Novak dropped a very intriguing detail in his testimony: Rove gave him classified information from the CIA report from Wilson’s trip to Niger. Novak in fact reported on it as classified information no less. Worth a follow-up.
Finally, someone should pursue the question: what was Rove’s testimony about his conversation with Libby on July 11, about which Libby testified that he told Rove that Russert had told him (Libby) about Wilson’s wife. Not so, says Russert, so it would be very interesting if it turned out that Rove testified that Libby told him that Russert had mentioned Wilson’s wife.
Jane Hamsher @ 35
Hey Jane. Sorry about the formatting problems, my fault!
Welcome Murray and Jeff.
Murray: Do I take that statement to mean that the claim that Valerie Plame was not a covert agent was proven false by the recent filings, or that Plame truly was not a covert agent?
Wonderful to have you here. How much of a war is there between the CIA and the office of the vice president? The CIA asked for the DOJ to pursue charges. The director has clearly stated that Valerie Plame was a covert agent. And if I understand some of the back-and-forth during the sentencing hearing, there may be evidence that CIA agents lost their lives due to the leak. Has any of the recent history of reorganizing hte intelligence community been blowback due to this internicine war?
Laura @ 38
Well, the legal results pretty much speak for themselves, as far as that goes. I personally wish he had realized that he did indeed have the discretion to release a public report on the course of the investigation, so we could know the full contours of what it discovered. Short of that, I wish he’d revealed more information at trial! But of course I don’t expect either of those wishes to be granted.
murray @ 21
Thanks, I’m such a cynic and I assume these weasels will end up poster boys just like Ollie one way or the other.
Hi Laura:
Fitzgerald’s role was to make a criminal case and then get a jury conviction. From his point of view, and just the legal justice system, he did exceedingly well. He won a conviction on four of five felony counts– while facing a defendant with extraordinary financial and legal resources and the backing of the White House. And, moreover, obstruction of justice, perjury and false statements cases are notoriously hard to make in general.
The one thing I wish he would do is issue a final report.
At the one press conference that Fitzgerald had, we had it out– it was quite a lively exchange– about whether he should do a final report.
His view is he is there to do a case, and not answer questions for history or the public.
But virtually every former special prosecutor I have interviewed say that they for reasons of public confidence, it is important to do one, so that the public understands why the prosecutor made decisions to prosecute or not.
One that everyone here already probably knows is that Valerie Plame wasn’t covert. That was put to rest forever in the most recent filings.
For some reason, I understood that she indeed was covert - and was perhaps head of the CP division. Now, I am totally confused.
Somebody deconfuse me please :}
Hi Spinoza,
While it has been a talking point for Libby and his attorneys that the CIA did ask for a leak investigation, the decision about whether to conduct one had to be made by the career attorneys in the Department of Justice. And they weren’t going to do the CIA’s bidding.
And then, of course, it was none other John Ashcroft, who allowed for the appointment of a special prosecutor to be named. And the DAG, Deputy Attorney General at the time, James Comey who made the decision to go and appoint Fitzgerald…
spinoza @ 41
In the present tense, I don’t really have a clear sense. Despite the denials of George Tenet in his recent book, I think there can be no question that there was major hostility between the CIA and the OVP in summer 2003, and that that is part of the setting for OVP’s conduct with regard to the Wilsons. That said, I don’t know if the things you point to are evidence of hostile acts on the part of the CIA. I also don’t think the sentencing hearing, or anything else, has offered evidence that CIA officers lost their lives because of the leak. The reorganization of the intelligence community has to do with a lot of things, including the failure to prevent 9-11, political pressures of various kinds and so forth, so I don’t know that you can specify the hostility between OVP and CIA as playing a specific role.
Murray, do you know this Carol Leonnig heretic at the Washington Post? How is this kind of writing tolerated so close to the headquarters of the Libby Lobby? *g*
murray @ 36
Call away, Murray. Aside from shipping off Robert Downey Jr. to him (who turned up two weeks later sporting an Australian accent) I don’t have any info on the guy, but always love to talk to you.
TeddySanFran @ 48
That was an incredible article.
Murray –
But virtually every former special prosecutor I have interviewed say that they for reasons of public confidence, it is important to do one, so that the public understands why the prosecutor made decisions to prosecute or not.
I think it’s more than this. Aside from prosecutorial discretion and how/why it was exercised, the fact is Fitzgerald and his team know a great deal more than we do, and what they learned is of a public interest nature — things that in a democracy the public need/have a right to know to evaluate their pubic officials. There has to be a way for that information to be made available, whether to Congress and the public. And we shouldn’t have to play, “did I ask the right question, yet?” as we’re doing with Comey wrt to the Justice Department. The inability to get access to this information is very frustrating, and someone needs to figure out how to solve that.
Hi Teddy–
I don’t really know Carol Leonnig, other than to meet her during the trial. I think she did a very good job, with Amy Goldstein, of covering it.
But not as good as Firedoglake, of course!
That wasn’t a suck up, btw. They left everyone including me in the dust.
THe 12 Legal Eagles put their noses into this at the end of the week saying Fitz was not constitutional. I detect that Walton was not amused with this filing but did play nice and allow them to submit it. Do you think it will have any effect on appeal? And it seems that it is too little too late to effect Walton.
Hey Jeff and Murray
Just wanted to pipe in and say that the book is very handy. It’s nice to be able to work with a book, finally, rather than a liveblog that may or may not be accurate.
Congrats!
Murray W.–Since this may be the only chance I’ll ever have, even if it is a bit cheesy and fawning, it’s true: THANK YOU for your (awesome) work…The book and all the stories you’ve broken…
podcat @ 40
I’m not sure which statement you’re talking about, but I would say a couple of things: 1)as Carol Leonnig nicely makes clear yet again in the WaPo today, there can no longer be any dispute that Plame was a covert CIA officer in the real-world sense of the term; 2)as far as the somewhat peculiar definition of the term in the relevant statute, the Intelligence Identities Protection Act, Fitzgerald has stated unequivocally that investigators determined early on that Plame qualified as a covert agent under the statute. The meaning of the statute has never been litigated, as far as I know, and it would have to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt and all. However, the very fact that investigators themselves made the judgment that she was covert under the statute gives the lie to one of the main criticisms that has come from conservatives, most prominently Victoria Toensing, and that, strangely, is still coming from presidential candidate Fred Thompson.
LS @ 45
This response was to a question about what misunderstandings there were that the trial revealed, but are still generally misunderstood.
Misunderstanding before = Valerie wasn’t covert.
Facts after the trial = Valerie was covert.
Hey Marcy–
The live blogging and reporting was revolutionary. Y’all left us in the dust. I would say something about important to this whole process emptywheel has been, but everyone here probably knows that already.
AZ Matt @ 53
I do not understand this. When Starr was given leeway to sniff anywhere he wanted why would Fitzgerald’s purview be unconstitutional?
OMG. I am an idiot– exhausted from book tour duties and hanging out in New York too late at nite, too.
Valerie Plame WAS covert, of course.
Scarecrow @ 57
Thank you so much. I misread it, and I was sitting here “spinning” in my chair ;>
murray @ 58
I was just following in your very considerable wake, Murray. Thank you, though…
murray @ 60
Those book tour groupies can be demanding.
LS @ 45
As I said, Plame was covert in the real world, and Fitzgerald determined that she was covert according to the definition in the IIPA statute; but that was not proven in court, and the very meaning of the statute is not settled, since it has never been argued in court.
Plame was not head of CPD. She worked in CPD - which, by the way, is/was on the clandestine side of the CIA, the Directorate of Operations, which Cheney and Libby surely knew when they learned that Wilson’s wife worked at CPD. Robert Grenier also testified that the unit that Plame worked in was staffed overwhelmingly by under cover employees.
Isikoff and Corn’s book Hubris reported that Plame was the Chief of Operations or Deputy Chief of Operations of the Joint Iraq Task Force (JTFI), which was within CPD.
murray @ 60
We just figured you were being snarky.
Jeff 64, Thank you for clarifying that for me.
Do you believe the OVP was aiming at Plame, or at Wilson? Who was the collateral damage, and who was their target?
Jeff Lomonaco @ 29
There seem to be several arguments that make absolutely no sense that Broder hasn’t bothered to think his way through.
One — Nothing Richard Armitage did excuses anything that anybody may have subsequently done that was illegal. Bill Clinton used the tire analogy — if someone steals the first two hubcaps off a car, does it make it okay for you to steal ones that are left? Makes absolutely. No. Sense.
Two — since Fitzgerald did not prosecute any underlying crime, none was committed. Which is so irrational it’s hard to know where to start. Zillions of crimes are perpetrated every day in the world that don’t get prosecuted. To say that therefore they never happened is an absurd line of reasoning.
Three — Since no underlying crime was committed (via irrationality #2) it was okay to commit perjury and obstruction of justice. I can’t imagine a US Attorney — or any serious officer of the law — who can hear this argument and not guffaw.
Four — Because Fitzgerald pursued perjury and obstruction of justice charges and not the underlying crimes, he is “obsessed” and “out of control.” Since pursuing these charges in the absense of the ability to prosecute the underying crimes is probably the chief tactic that is used to break up criminal conspiracies, I believe that this means that every single US attorney in the country is therefore “obsessed” and “out of control.”
Broder is a wanker.
emptywheel @ 54
Hey emptywheel, and thanks. As I said, the liveblog was a real event in the history of the blogosphere, and I’d add in American politics per se, I suspect. Pretty damn acccurate too - though I should add, before I harm booksales, that I agree, it’s useful to have the verbatim text, if you know what I’m saying!
Hi everyone,
I have to go soon in a few minutes to take the shuttle back from New York to D.C. (Can only afford to stay here as long as the publisher is paying.)
I want to thank everyone for caring about this story and issue. If people want to leave questions, tonite when I get home, or tomorrow, I will come back and read them and answer them as well.
Jeff is going to stick around as long as you want. And to be honest, he knows more about this case in many regards than I do. And has a PHD to boot!
I just wanted to say thanks to Jane and Marcy and everyone at Firedoglake for giving Jeff and me the opportunity to do this.
What Jame, and Marcy, and Christy, and Jeralyn, and Swopa did in liveblogging and reporting the trial was a revolutionary moment in journalism. It was great to be a witness to that moment and see it come off first-hand.
I’m going to try and answer one more question, but the TSA guys always think there is something nefarious about my laptop so I am cutting it close pretty soon to missing my plane…
Hi Murray,
Thanks from the bottom of my heart for the reporting you do. You make our world a better place, and I am very grateful.
Hi Urban pirate:
Thanks so much for saying that. In a time when journalism is in decline and disrepute, it is very difficult to do this type of reporting. It was always tough in the past, but much harder now.
So comments like that are what makes us get up in the morning and start all over again with the next story.
Thanks Murray. The world needs more good from people like you.
One of the worst diverstions has been about who leaked what to whom.
The full diversion is Armitage leaked to Novak
The next worst is: Armitage and possibly Rove leaked to Novak.
It is rare to see a full account of what Libby leaked and to whom.
I’d appreciate a handy list, based on the established facts, of Libby leaks, now that we have the experts here.
Murray: Do you feel that there will be any more indictments in this case, or will Libby be the only one?
Thank you for coming and answering our questions.
No doubt Scooter thinks it is Murray the Wasp!
Murray—
THANK YOU.
murray @ 70
Better be careful with that Murray–the DC TSA guys put me through a grueling search the other day. Read every single business card in my bag! Funny, that, but since Jane and I wrote a letter to Reggie pointing out that Libby is covering for Dick, I’ve been pulled into secondary both times I flew.
TeddySanFran @ 67
To some obvious degree, the answer appears to be both. However, I will say that one idea that I have never bought is the notion that anyone was specifically trying to put Plame out of business because she did work that was at odds with some project the administration wanted to pursue, such as wrt Iran.
Thanks, Murray, for all you do, and travel safely!
Probably Libby is the last, but you never know.
We should keep tuned to this story, though.
Hi Murray, Thanks for appearing with us today. Sorry to have been absent from the conversation; we were in formatting hell for a while.
Better be careful with that Murray–the DC TSA guys put me through a grueling search the other day. Read every single business card in my bag! Funny, that, but since Jane and I wrote a letter to Reggie pointing out that Libby is covering for Dick, I’ve been pulled into secondary both times I flew.
Oh.My.God
Marcy, what does it say about the shocking Orwellian world we inhabit that when I read your new travel news — my response is, “But of course!”
Based on your knowledge of Libby’s relationship to the OVP, what crimes has Vice President Cheney likely committed?
Murray — thanks for coming today. We’re looking forward to your next book on US vs [several members of the Department of Justice and Karl Rove.]
Murray, you are without doubt the best reporter writing today about the abuses of power that are taking place in the Bush administration. Your success at getting insiders to talk to you, and give you crucial information, such as the letter delegating hiring/firing authority to Monica Goodling, has been crucial to keeping pressure on these creeps. Are the people you talk to giving you more access than normal because they perceive the great damage that is being done to this country by Bushco? And what do think about the reluctance of the Dems to go all out to impeach these creeps, starting with Gonzales.
I just want to take this opportunity to give kudos to Murray for his diligence in following this story. I thought the Plame panel at YKos was really interesting in that it probably brought together the most knowledgeable folks on the planet about the issue. I think this is an important asset that the blogosphere can bring to the political debate.
TeddySanFran @ 80
Just want to add my “me, too”. If it weren’t for you, Marcy, and FDL, I’d probably just be catching up now to why Scooter Libby deserves the jail time that he might or might not actually see. Either way, you did what we depend on the press to do, which is a rare thing these days.
Scarecrow @ 74
The most important is that Libby leaked to Judith Miller, and the most important occasion was on July 8, 2003. As Fitzgerald said at one point, that conversation is at the heart of the case. Libby also leaked information about Wilson’s wife, albeit somewhat more vague information, on June 23, 2003. He also appears to have discussed Plame with Miller again on July 12.
Libby also confirmed that Plame worked for the CIA to Matt Cooper of TIME on July 12, 2003, though it’s worth remembering that Libby was acquitted of one of the charges bearing on his testimony on that conversation.
As Fitzgerald or prosecutor Zeidenberg indicated in their closing argument, Libby’s leak to Cooper seems to have been more a matter of seizing an opportunity that presented itself, Cooper having learned about Plame from Rove and asking Libby about it. In contrast, the leak to Miller, specifically the July 8 leak, was part of a carefully premeditated conversation with the reporter, where Libby was acting at Cheney’s direction, where Cheney had to go to the president to get authorization to leak otherwise classified information, where Libby met her offsite (at a coffeeshop or dining room of a hotel) for an exceptionally long interview, and so forth.
My own view is that this would make perfect sense: who else combined sympathy with Libby’s worldview on Iraq with legitimacy and prestige of placement in the MSM better than Judith Miller?
Why no use of the 1917 Espionage Act. it alway seemed a prima facie case to me. Did Fitzgerald ever say, or it this addressed in the book?
Didn’t Fitz say that if Congress requested it, he would turn over the material gathered during the investigation? If so, has Congress requested it?
Thanks for all the work you have done on the Libby case.
I think the biggest bummer of the whole trial was Libby not testifying.
murray @ 70
I think even Marcy has admitted that on occasion Jeff’s knowledge of the story rivals her own.
Thanks for being here, Murray. I’ve been wanting to read this for a while. Just got my copy yesterday and I’m gonna be sitting down with a highlighter for a loooong time (slow reader).
I’ll enjoy every minute of it.
stratocruiser @ 91
Possible violations of the Espionage Act were among the potential crimes under investigation. The place to look for Fitzgerald’s comments on this are in the press conference he gave on October 28, 2005, right after Libby was indicted. His comments are somewhat difficult to interpret, but he appears to have made a judgment call that there were various interests implicated here - as well, perhaps, as deficiencies in the strength of the case he felt he could bring - that made it a bad idea. But again, read for yourself, that’s just my take. I’d also add that, among other things, if he had brought a case on underlying crimes here, it would have been much more difficult to avoid the pitfall of greymail, which I suspect he only barely evaded as it was in this case.
Do you think the liveblogging had an impact on the defense strategy as the trial progressed? I’ve heard suggestions that the wide audience for the liveblogging may have caused Wells/Jeffress to rethink calling the Veep or Scooter. What say you?
ccmask @ 93
Oh come on, we got eight hours of the guy on tape, or whatever! It was such a bigger bummer that Cheney didn’t testify.
Jeff at 90: Thanks, that’s a helpful summary. And wasn’t there a link between Libby and Novak? Does that belong on the list?
Mahalo Nui Loa, to Jeff and Murray, for taking the time to enlighten us further, here at the Lake!!! I had seen some comments asking about the DC Circuit’s Political Bias, and I was wondering two things; 1) Will the DC Circuit accept the Appeal? , and, 2) If they did, is there a possibility they would overturn the verdict??? Thanks again, for your appearance here!!!
I think even Marcy has admitted that on occasion Jeff’s knowledge of the story rivals her own
But only on occasion?
No one knows the case better than Marcy Wheeler, as I said in my acknowledgments in the book.
Jeff Lomonaco @ 100
Oh, I think your knowledge of the case rivals my own all the time. It’s just that I only say that to Jane “on occasion.”
8-)
Jeff,
I know Waxman is interested in the case and had sent a letter to Fitz. Will he be following up now that the trial and sentencing are about through?
Scarecrow @ 98
As Marcy astutely predicted on the basis of precious little information, it turned out that Libby and Novak did indeed intersect during the fateful week on July 6-14 - on July 9 to be exact. (I’d forgotten whether it was the 8th or 9th, and consulted the handy, very detailed timeline we put together at the front of the book - how’s that for self-promotion?) Novak testified that Libby did not bring up or say the least word about Plame to him, but that he could possibly have brought up Plame with Libby, though he had no recollection of doing so - a helpful bit of testimony, if it could be believed that Libby might have confused Novak and Russert and might have heard about Plame from Novak. But the jury seemed to make of it what it would, not much.
Anonymous sources. Is there going to be a press re-evaluation aka a wankathon about what this trial revealed about the process?
My modest proposal is that journalists don’t allow a higher ranking governmental official to dish dirt on somebody lower than them anonymously. It turns whistleblowing on it’s head.
Hi Jeff! Sorry to have missed Murray.
The suggestion by Fitz (during his post-indictment press conference) that there would be no report could be aimed at further action, no? Why tell potential targets that you have the beginnings of a case? As much as I would love to see the whole shooting match, I’d rather keep those bullets in Fitz’s pocket. Take?
Taking a break from prepping a n Opening Statement I am going to deliver tomorrow in a trial of my own.
How great that I stopped in at just the right time!
Kudos to you both Murray and Jeff!
When my jury comes back and I have my verdict I’m going to celebrate (I hope) by reading your book.
AZ Matt @ 102
My sense is that Fitzgerald is not going to be turning much over to Waxman. emptywheel and/or looseheadprop have done some blogging on what material Fitzgerald might be able to turn over without violating grand jury secrecy rules and such. But I think Waxman will keep plugging regardless of what he gets from Fitzgerald.
Murray and Jeff, thanks. Will you be able to follow the Wilson civil case?
newtonusr @ 105
No, I don’t think so, as Fitzgerald was pretty clear that, barring new information, the investigation was going inactive indefinitely.
gentlemen…
(just got here, so apologies if this has already been asked).
We all know about Cheney and Libby’s visits to Langley, to talk directly to the people who were managing Iraq and WMD intelligence. We also know that Cheney and Libby had a penchant for “unfiltered” intelligence — stuff like a draft report or debriefing subsequent to one of VPM’s overseas missions. It also seems obvious that VPM was looking at Iraq’s WMD intelligence intelligently (read skeptically).
All of this suggests that Cheney and Libby knew exactly who “Valerie Plame” was when they found out that Joe Wilson was married to her. In your reporting, have you run across any hard evidence to support this theory?
Hey gang~
I am curious what people think about the notion that Libby might start spilling the proverbial beans if Bush delays, or decides not to pardon him. Also, do you think it likely that the Wilsons’ civil suit will lead to more clarity on either the underlying misdeeds of the Bush Administration, or the role(s) other cabinet members played in the cover-up?
Thanks for all your hard work!!
Here’s one of my favorite little tidbits in the book, which I think I alluded to earlier, from p. 422. It’s Novak under cross-examination:
Q Do you know if, during your conversation with Mr. Rove that week, you discussed anything about a 1999 trade delegation from Iraq to Niger with Mr. Rove?
A I think I did because that was part of the whole issue of the question of whether there had been an attempt to buy yellowcake uranium, an Iraqi attempt to buy yellowcake uranium from Niger.
This is interesting for a couple of reasons. First, it shows up in Novak’s column like this:
Wilson made an oral report in Langley that an Iraqi uranium purchase was “highly unlikely,” though he also mentioned in passing that a 1988 Iraqi delegation tried to establish commercial contacts. CIA officials did not regard Wilson’s intelligence as definitive, being based primarily on what the Niger officials told him and probably would have claimed under any circumstances. The CIA report of Wilson’s briefing remains classified.
Apart from the way the date gets garbled - something that Libby took note of in his grand jury testimony - Novak here recognizes that the information was still classified. It’s also interesting that Fitzgerald asks about a delegation to Niger. As we know, there was no such thing and the CIA report itself didn’t say that - instead there was a meeting on the sidelines of an OAS meeting - and the notion that there was a delegation to Niger seems to have started with what the CIA was saying in spring 2003, and which OVP very much picked up on and ran with. So one question is, where did Rove get his information that he conveyed to Novak?
I jsut noticed that the bit of cross-examination right before this is really intriguing too.
But I gotta step out for a bit. I’ll be back and promise to address as many questions as I can. I think Murray may try to stop back in later too.
Thanks a lot everyone for the questions, and to Jane and Jim and everybody at fdl for your generosity!
p.lukasiak @ 110
I have not seen any, and I’ll say that I’m somewhat skeptical of the notion.
Thanks for all you have done, Jeff!
I’m gonna be thumbing through my index for the Hannah train wreck.
Good times.
murray @ 31
Welcome to the Lake! Murray, I always look forward to your blogs!
Do you think there’s any chance that the defense will use this footnote, on appeal, to justify judicial prejudice as a reason to adjust the sentence downward?
Bob in HI
Jane—
Hannah train wreck was Feb 13th, Louboutins day. It was a privilege to watch. Page 430 in Murray and Jeff’s book.
Jane Hamsher @ 34
Jane!
Can you give us a top post report on YearlyKos???
Wish I could be there!
Bob in HI
Jeff Lomonaco @ 79
Why don’t you favor thinking that VPW was the real target of value, who would have been attacked with or without her husband? I thought I heard that VPW was the head of a study group assessing Iraq’s capabilities, not only of that front corporation. Seemed to me that OVP probably would have bumped into her in this capacity and would have decided that life would be easier without her opposition (I presume) to cooked “intelligence”.
These darn conspiracy theories make very efficient hypotheses.
Slothrop @ 16
I can’t believe that with all the Plameologist firepower in the room, no one hit on what IMO is the most obvious and compelling reply (which I emailed to Broder this morning, FWIW):
“Special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald learned soon after taking the job that Richard Armitage, a high-ranking State Department official, and presidential assistant Karl Rove were the sources whom columnist Robert D. Novak used…”
This time frame is wrong — Armitage made his admission in early October 2003, nearly three months *before* Fitzgerald was appointed. So it should be evident that Fitzgerald was not appointed merely to find out who leaked to Novak.
In fact, this means that even with Armitage’s confession in hand, there was sufficient evidence of wrongdoing for John Ashcroft to recuse himself and allow the appointment of a special counsel.
Apologies for duplicating (triplicating) something you’d already answered — hadn’t seen your several responses to like questions made while I was pondering my comment. Thanks for being here.
Thanks, Swopa — something about that graf in Broder’s column bothered me, but not considering myself among the firepowerers, I just piled it in the corner with all the Dean’s other crap.
Have you gotten a reply to your email? *g*
murray @ 35
I’ve been wondering if, perhaps ever since Reagan threw the Fairness Doctrine overboard, the Press has ceased to care about truth, and has instead become a subdivision of Entertainment. Do you agree, and if so, how can the connection between truth and journalism be restored?
Bob in HI
Egregious: what on earth is Louboutin’s day? some ritual involving red-soled spike heels?
Jeff: My reason for saying that Libby not testifying was a bummer because I thought his lawyers got him special considerations and in the end, he didn’t testify. I thought Fitz & Walton felt they had been had. Maybe I am wrong.
Jeff Lomonaco @ 103
Let’s note here that on July 7th, Libby told Ari Fleischer over lunch that Valerie Plame worked in the Counterproliferation department of the CIA.
On July 14th, Novak reported that Valerie Plame worked in the Counterproliferation department of the CIA.
But golly gee, no, the subject didn’t come up when Libby and Novak spoke on July 9th. Novak just happened to find the name “Plame” in Who’s Who.
Uh-huh… right.
Jeff Lomonaco @ 47
Isn’t it well established that Cheney has long had disdain for the CIA, dating back well before the current Bush administration? If so, I can read a lot of the CIA hostility as simply self-defense and push-back. In other words, wasn’t this fight started by Cheney long ago, rather than by anyone in the CIA?
In this regard, one of the many untold CIA stories is the Porter Goss episode. Was he Cheney’s mole to remake the CIA into Cheney’s image– i.e., as ideological servant of the President’s policies, rather than as an independent fact-assessing body? But I digress…
Bob in HI
Jeff and Murray - When you return to read this - Thank you for your efforts and very good work.
Masaccio—
Jane and I both wore our Louboutins to court on the 13th, the day that Fitzgerald destroyed Hannah within minutes.
brownandserve @ 88
Can we get a report on the Plame Panel at YKos please please please???
Bob in HI
spinoza @ 59
Starr was an independent prosecutor, pretty much a law unto himself, whereas Fitz was a special prosecutor who was pretty much under the thumb of the AG. There is a difference there as to how much leeway each had. Since Starr, the independent prosecutor statute has lapsed, no longer in effect.
Bob Schacht @ 130
You can watch it here.
Bob Schacht @ 130
Don’t rush her, I haven’t made my pitch for appearing on the panel yet!
brownandserve @ 132
Wonderful! Here’s the list of speakers:
Froomkin talked about how Murray Waas was the best and almost only traditional journalist covering Plamegate. I haven’t heard the rest yet.
Bob in HI
Jeff, Can I ask what drew you into this story? The news, Murray’s writing, the mystery, your students, the blogs?
Looking forward to reading the book …the transcription of the Woodward/Armitedge conversation and more.
Judge Walton said it all..PRIVELEDGE for the uppercrust in the legal system. The plan was to have Libby cover for the WH for minimal colateral damage then the fix to get him off.
Bob Schacht @ 134
UPDATE: For the record, this was the Plame panel for the 2006 YearlyKos. Still interesting to watch, given the personalities on stage! Remember that this was before FDL liveblogged the Libby trial and got famous for it.
Bob in HI
behindthefall @ 119
Short answer: there’s no evidence that she would have been attacked without her husband, and the fact that her cover was blown precisely in the context of her husband talking to and then publicly in the press strongly indicates that was the trigger. Also, we just don’t know what her position was, and what role she played in the production of intelligence. But don’t you think the little glimpses we’ve gotten, such as the email from February 13, 2002 don’t indicate such a skeptic or anything, just someone trying to get intelligence?
Swopa @ 120
Right, but the possible comeback to that is that by then it had become a false testimony case. Which I don’t believe, but I think my alternative suggested as much: there were multiple leaks being investigated.
Any chance that Fitz is not releasing a public report bec. “something might turn up” that he can go after? Not wanting to give anything away? Seem to remember discussion about whether the case was permanently closed, or not.
ccmask @ 125
I was just kidding around, and expressing my own disappointment that Cheney did not testify. I don’t think it happened just as you suggest. However, Dan Froomkin did raise some really interesting questions arising out of a news report in the WaPo during the trial indicating that, after the defense opened with some very surprising suggestions that Libby was hung out to dry by the White House, the defense sent an unnamed emissary to the White House to reassure them that the defense would not air too much dirty laundry from the White House. Froomkin’s question was basically whether a deal of some kind was made where the defense would not do so, in return for something. Nobody has ever followed up on that report and his questions, or at least turned up anything that’s been published.
Swopa at 126
Let’s note here that on July 7th, Libby told Ari Fleischer over lunch that Valerie Plame worked in the Counterproliferation department of the CIA.
On July 14th, Novak reported that Valerie Plame worked in the Counterproliferation department of the CIA.
I don’t think Novak did report that in his original column. There was no reference to CPD. In fact, however, Novak testified - p. 416 of the book - that Armitage told him that she worked at CPD. I can’t recall if Armitage himself said the same thing, and if so, if that would have been the obvious inference from the INR memo, or if it must have come from additional information.
But golly gee, no, the subject didn’t come up when Libby and Novak spoke on July 9th. Novak just happened to find the name “Plame” in Who’s Who.
Uh-huh… right.
I will admit that Novak offered a disproportionate number of the pieces of testimony that I found hard to credit, and among them remains his testimony that he came to call her “Valerie Plame” because he only discovered her last name from Who’s Who. It has always seemed to me that a reasonable person would have come away from Wilson’s Who’s Who entry thinking that his wife’s name was “Valerie Wilson” and her maiden name had been Plame. Plus, of course, we know that “Valerie Plame” was in circulation from Miller, which makes it perfectly plausible he would have learned her name from some person. Furthermore, Fleischer testified that he believes, though he can’t be sure, that Libby referred to Wilson’s wife as “Valerie Plame.”
Of course, it’s even harder to believe that Novak referred to her as an operative because he overuses that word to refer to political operatives all the time.
As for Libby-Novak on July 9, I guess we’ll just never know.
Bob at 127
I was not suggesting that the fight was started by the CIA. Though I will say I don’t think there were any institutional innocents in the battle between CIA and WH in 2003.
Bob Schacht @ 137
Oops. Sorry if I gave wrong impression.
TeddySanFran @ 67
Isn’t it likely Valerie was the target since there were two other reports about Niger which didn’t raise any hackles? It was only when Joe Wilson reported to the NY Times that they went into action and disclosed Valerie’s classified job description.
Maybe I should also add that if this was what happened it means they ran a black task ON the CIA, to get Joe to do the Niger trip in the first place. And then they turned it around to get Valerie. Imagine, running a black op WITHIN the CIA… It’s pretty stunning stuff.
blue e @ 135
Short version: Iraq, Iraq, Iraq. I’m obsessed, I think it’s the defining event of our times, and I think it has been extraordinary and very consequential.
But it’s been a crisis not just in terms of the war itself, its consequences and conduct. Here comes the longer version. As a relatively separate matter, I believe the run-up to the war has been a real crisis for democracy in America. And so I’ve been interested in trying to take the measure of it. Kant connects the claim that only a republican constitution - a.k.a, in essence, what we call democracy - can be moral and just very closely with the notion that by its nature it avoids principles permitting offensive war. Part of that idea is that when wars are decided on by the very people who will be affected by them - blood and treasure and all - instead of by the sovereign for his own glory using other people’s bodies and finances, they will be much more skeptical of going to war, much better judges of it, and that’s at least part of why they won’t do offensive wars. The implications for thinking about Iraq, the prewar intel fiasco and the way in which the war was publicly justified, the way information and knowledge were used by the administration, are pretty clear - though I don’t think just what happened, how it happened and what its implications for democratic politics have yet become so clear.
In trying to take the measure of all that, I became very interested in the way intelligence was used in the public justification for war, as well as the role of the press, and in that context initially got interested in the intrinsically fascinating mystery of the Niger documents, and that led to my interesting in the CIA leak investigation. And voila, here I am. Plus I’ve got an obsessive thing about knowledge just as such, and the CIA leak investigation is perfect for such an obsessive.
You asked.
Jeff, thanks for your fascinating comments.
re: “Part of that idea is that when wars are decided on by the very people who will be affected by them - …. they will be much more skeptical of going to war, much better judges of it, and that’s at least part of why they won’t do offensive wars.”
I realize that things have changed… and perhaps in our current political landscape the outcome would have been no different if we still had a “universal” draft. Word “universal” used with caution. But, it came to mind from your words “the very people who will be affected by them”. Any thoughts on that?
Valley Girl
It’s a really good point, though I have to say I’m skeptical of a universal draft for several reasons, though perhaps ultimately because it builds on a notion of service to country that separates that which is served from us, who really compose it. (If that wasn’t clear, as it wasn’t, think of it this way. I think Kennedy’s famous question, ask what you can do for your country, is the wrong one. The question is, what can we do together?) But there’s no question that where there is a draft, it’s likely to rouse a lot more people to participate in public debate over the prospective war of the moment. As a thought experiment, maybe a law whereby the closest relatives of the people who actually make the decision - i.e. our elected representatives - would be automatically enlisted on the frontest of front lines in a prospective war? Something that achieved that same sense of perspective.
Speaking of Robert Novak, what is there to say?
Jeff Lomonaco @ 142
Actually, there was a reference to CPD–just not one that specifically said Valerie worked there.
And as I have shown, the question of who told Novak about CPD’s role has, um, evolved somewhat over time.
emptywheel
You’re right, but that mention harms not helps Swopa’s position, and any other position that tries to point to Novak-Libby as the source of the CPD fact about Plame. Because the column actually links Wilson’s wife to CPD via what the CIA - which we pretty much know means Harlow - told him.
I either alluded to or meant to allude to your tracking of Novak’s changing stories. But again, on the CPD claim, it hasn’t really changed in any way showing inconsistency that I can see, and the post you linked to doesn’t seem to suggest otherwise. Novak has said, as he repeated in his testimony, that Armitage told him Wilson’s wife worked in CPD, and then Novak has also characterized what Armitage told him in broader, but perfectly consistent, terms.
Now, it would be interesting to get Armitage on the record on just this question. Same goes for Harlow.
But in any case, there doesn’t seem to be any particular reason to think Novak got the CPD information from Libby.
Did everyone notice how in the recent Republican Candidates debates on CNN, how both Giuliani and Romney were saying that Libby should be pardoned because there had been no crime committed? As though obstruction of justice and lying to a grand jury is not a crime. And none of the other candidates said anything to correct or contradict this falehood, and Wolf Blitzer let it pass too. How can the news media just let the make stuff up and re-write history to their liking?
Jeff Lomonaco @ 148
Jeff, thanks again for your thoughtful remarks. The issue of a univeral draft has come up in many forms in FDL discussions. Including the idea that it should not be a universal draft, in military terms, but a “service draft” in a broader sense. The way things are going in this country, a debate about the draft will probably not happen any time soon. More pressing problems.
I graduated college in ‘69, the first year of the draft lottery. At the time, I was upset that women were not also subject to the draft, because if that had been the case, there would have been even more voices speaking out, that is, with a direct involvement.
I was against a return of the draft until my dearest friend from that time made exactly the point that you do: draft = rousing more people to participate in the war of the moment. So, I’ve had to reconsider.
I am a college prof, so I get to observe college students of this generation. I was against the very idea of the Iraq invasion from the get go. Contra my times as a college student, it seemed that very few students even cared about this, and most had no idea at all this was even a looming issue.
I had a real struggle with myself when a student emailed me about a (small) demonstration against the invasion, which was at the same time as one of my lectures. Should I cancel the lecture, and inject my own politics? Or not? What was the professional thing to do? I agonized over it. In the end, I sent an email to my students- If any of you wish to go to the demonstration, instead of attend class on that day, please let me know, and will be happy to repeat the lecture for you at another time.
Had I been a college prof in ‘69, at least at the college where I was then as a student, I would not have had to struggle with this decision. But, so many things have changed it is hard to map those times onto these.
And, I fully endorse your idea that elected representatives are expected, by law, to have their relatives and children serve in the front lines. There have been many comments here pointing out the hypocrisy of the war mongers on that account. But there are so many crimes, and so little time…
Jeff Lomonaco @ 151
Oh, I linked to the wrong “Novak’s changing story” post. Here’s the one that shows Novak has, in fact, been inconsistent with the CPD mention. I think that’s important bc he was trying to pin everything on Armitage in the Fall–which is when he starts claiming Armitage used CPD. Armitage, of course, claims not to have known Plame was CPD So while that doesn’t mean Novak DID learn of CPD from Libby, it doesn’t mean his story is consistent or, therefore, reliable.
And, of course, college women didn’t have rugby teams in ‘69. ;)
emptywheel @ 154
Well, I’m not sure I should even be arguing with someone who pretty regularly appears as an authoritative source in the MSM (nice going, by the way), but here goes anyway, sort of. In many particulars, as I suggested with my first comment on Novak here, I think quite clearly that Novak’s story is not reliable. I’m less clear on the CPD part of the story. Does Armitage outright deny that he knew that Plame worked in CPD, and deny telling Novak that? I’ve never found an actual transcript of the big interview he gave David Martin, only the related web-story which doesn’t seem to have anything on the matter. Though there are some things disputed between Armitage and Novak that I am inclined to believe Novak on, if Armitage flatly denies knowing or telling Novak that Plame was at CPD, I might believe that. But I don’t remember seeing it?
Valley Girl
I’m with you on the overwhelming majority of what you say. I am also skeptical of the service requirement, however, though again I certainly understand its appeal. I tend to think that once a war gets bogged down the way Iraq has, young people do start to think in terms of their own possible involvement, even when there is not a draft.
And I heartily agree that it is so hard to map different times onto each other. Things don’t just change, they change in sort of incommensurable ways.
Jeff, is there any possibility that we could stop with the I.Lewis “Scooter” Libby nonsense. Is this guy a mafia boss, or English royalty that he gets the initial AND the “nickname”? A few suggestions.
1. His first name is Irving. (You can check that out at many sources, in addition to Wikipedia.) This leaves many possibilities, such as Irving L. Libby, Irving Lewis “Scooter” Libby, or just plain Irving Libby. My own first name is Irvin (which my Uncle Mickey, a Hungarian, has always mispronounced “Irving”…ok, he has and still calls me Oyving…honest) So I have rights here. Don’t think I am just being snarky.
2. Just plain I. Lewis Libby, like the rest of the people named Irving who like their middle names better. On this point, I am wholly sympathetic to my fellow Irv.
3. Or maybe just Scooter Libby, and lose the quotes. He likes this silly name so much? Give it to him for real. Alternatively, Scooter “Chip” Libby.
Other suggestions welcome here.
nrglaw @ 158
This is very funny. Yeah, I never know what to do - and note that in the full form he actually gets first initial and middle name and nickname. But unlike some others, I actually don’t want to be derisive, so I’m never sure what to do.
Note, however, that I think you’re wrong about his actual first name. I’m pretty sure it’s “Irve” - and one pretty strong piece of evidence, interestingly enough, is that that’s the way he’s identified on the recipients’ list for the January 2003 intelligence assessments that were just released in connection with the latest part of the SSCI’s report. I think “Irving” is urban myth, Wikipedia notwithstanding. The other funny thing about this is that he is asked about what the I. stands for at the beginning of his grand jury testimony, and he actually makes a joke about and actually manages to avoid answering the question. It’s funny.
But I basically agree that it should be option 2 or 3. Worth noting that the title of the book uses “I. Lewis Libby.”
Oh and by the way, on the Oyving issue, I swear my Italian-American grandmother and great aunt pronounced “oil” exactly like the name “Earl,” though they turned it into at least a syllable and a half, maybe two.
Hi Jeff & Murray!
I was unable to join the discussion today but am enjoying reading everybody’s comments after the fact. Also enjoyed seeing Murray interviewed by Amy Goodman the other day. Thank you so much for coming here to answer our questions. Here’s one of mine:
Can’t help wondering: Is it possible that one or more sealed indictments exist, of which only Fitz, the judge and the GJ are aware? Could they be sitting in a locked file cabinet, like ticking time bombs, waiting for an appropriate moment to be unsealed? I’m thinking of Cheney here, and maybe others.
I’ve done a lot of reading about sealed indictments, and I’ve learned they can be sealed “for any legitimate prosecutorial purpose” and can remain sealed as needed for long periods of time (years) without jeopardizing the case. Indictments are sealed to avoid tipping off the defendant while an investigation is still ongoing—especially when said defendant is likely to try to evade prosecution through evidence-tampering, killing a witness, or fleeing.
Has either one of you ever chatted with Jason Leopold about his “Karl Rove indictment” story of last year? Does he still insist it was true? What do you make of it? Is Leopold a fabricator, or did he get punked by Libby operatives, or did something strange happen to the indictment?
The fact that Fitz won’t issue a final report keeps me wondering… He seems like such a thorough guy. I can’t help thinking there is more we don’t know which he can’t discuss at this time. He can’t issue a final report because the case isn’t finished, and he can’t admit that he can’t, because that would give too much away.
Cassandra @ 160
No, Fitzgerald has been clear about his reasons for not issuing a report, and it’s not because he can’t be as thorough as he’d like to be because the case isn’t finished. He will never issue a report.
I’ve not seen any evidence to indicate sealed indictments, and most of all, Fitzgerald has said that the investigation is inactive, not ongoing in any actual sense, so that wouldn’t be an explanation. As for Leopold, I have no real idea, but I suspect he got punked, or else there was some kind of misunderstanding.
Jeff Lomonaco @ 161
Thanks for your reply, Jeff. Not to belabor the point I hope, but “inactive” seems like a vague term to me. Not “completed”, not “closed”, but “inactive”. Did Fitz actually SAY he would never issue a report?
“Inactive” might mean “until/unless further witnesses/documents come forward”—or it could mean “waiting for a designated date/event to occur”, such as the swearing in of a new administration—as in, oh, say a situation where it was clear that high government officials were implicated in serious crimes and showed an intent to obstruct the process and tamper with evidence if the prosecution went forward while they were still in office?
Re sealed indictments, there is no reason why you or anyone would ever “see evidence” to indicate the existence of sealed indictments. That’s the whole point. They are sealed for the purose of strict secrecy. The identity of the defendant, and the charges against him, can’t be revealed to the public without the judge’s say-so. And if an indictment reads not “US v. Sealed”, but “Sealed v. Sealed”, it means it can’t be viewed by ANYBODY, not even DOJ officials—thus, perhaps, thwarting the prying eyes of Gonzales’ minions?
Far-fetched? Probably so. But I still haven’t heard Fitz say the case is closed. I’m waiting for him to say those words. Then I’ll know it’s over. If he hasn’t said them yet, I figure it isn’t over.
Jeff — you’re right, of course, about Novak’s July 14th column not mentioning CPD.
I found a video of Armitage’s CBS interview at the time, and he didn’t address the CPD angle (nor was he asked to)… he said Novak raised the question of why Wilson was sent at the end of their interview, and he (Armitage) said, “I don’t know, but his wife works at the agency.”
I was specifically watching for a CPD mention, so I don’t think I missed it.
If Armitage has denied knowing she was CPD, that’s news to me; in the update here, he’s quoted as saying he can’t remember whether he told Novak. That implies he did know, although we can’t be sure.
For me, the question has always been whether the INR memo mentioned CPD, since that seems to have been Armitage’s sole source of information about Wilson’s wife. But then, maybe he got curious and checked around, or just learned more by informal gabbing.
Cassandra- see my comment above.
I had exactly the same thought, but you have stated it better than I did.
Bottom line- I, too, am waiting for Fitz to say “the case is closed”.
“The Strange Case of the Dog Barking in the Night.” And what was so strange? Because the dog didn’t bark. (Rough title of an old Perry Mason case).
If there was no “underlying crime,” then wouldn’t the Bush administration have declassified and released long ago the CIA’s after-incident damage assessment report findings?
Furthermore, if the CIA’s initial internal investigation had found “no harm, no foul” then why would they have referred the leak investigation to the DOJ, demanding that legal action be taken against all the persons responsible for divulging the identity of one of their operatives?
In other words, the very act of the Bush administration NOT releasing (i.e. the dog not barking) the CIA’s initial internal investigation findings indicates that there was a crime committed in the outing of Valerie Plame Wilson.
Secondly, the non-releasing of this internal CIA assessment report from 2003 (full, redacted or just a summary) is further evidence of obstruction of justice, part of the overall attempt, in my opinion, of the Bush administration trying to play-down the significance of this breach in national security.
I presume Patrick Fitzgerald saw the complete, unredacted CIA internal investigation “damage” report shortly after he was assigned and began his own DOJ investigation. However, he wouldn’t be able to talk about it (except in a roundabout way) unless this report were declassified in whole or in part.
Thus, Fitzgerald’s hands are still tied, and the obstruction of justice continues.
And the dog still hasn’t barked.
Valley Girl @ 164
Exactly, VG! He’s in a tricky situation, isn’t he? Can’t say it’s closed and can’t say it isn’t.
Reminds me of the way the CIA wants the leakers punished, but they are loath to give up any information about just how important Plame was, how much damage was done when her cover was blown, how many died—because that would only add to the damage, by giving enemies even more information. So they’ve been very low-key about it, allowing Toensing and other idiots on the right to harrumph about her being just a desk jockey….UNTIL the CIA issued a brief summary for Fitz to use at Libby’s sentencing hearing. THEN we learn that she traveled overseas, under cover, between 7 and 10-plus times in five years, sometimes under her own name and sometimes an alias. And they won’t even talk about how many years, “if any”, she worked for them before 2002! (But pssst. She’s been with them for 20 years.) So her job with CPD was so important that they can scarcely admit they know her, even after the whole world knows she worked there.
I know if I were in Fitz’s shoes, I’d do everything in my power not to let the bastards get away with this. And if that meant getting some sealed indictments and keeping silent while the public bloviates endlessly about things they don’t know, and enduring criticism for failing to accomplish much with my investigation, then that’s what I’d do. Anything to keep the perpetrators complacent, to keep them thinking they’ve gotten away with it, AGAIN.
Swopa @ 163
Thanks, interesting. Not a very convincing pushback from Armitage on CPD, is it? Part of what’s interesting is that, unless there’s some other part of the INR report that contains info identifying Plame as CPD or a knowledgeable official would be able to tell in a way I can’t, it would pretty much confirm that Armitage had other sources of information on Plame - not surprising, but interesting. Obvious candidates include Tenet, whom I take Armitage to have gotten the information on the 16 words he fed to Woodward on June 13 from; and Ford. But it could be anyone, I suppose.
Note that, as ew observed, Novak does sort of refer to CPD, though it’s clearly identified as coming from the CIA, which probably means, in this instance, Harlow.
Hi all, late to the talk, but the initial claims by Novak he mentioned people staffing the House.
Google delivers too many looks on a search, but if you Nexis it you’ll nail that lead.
Porter Goss was a guest to nearly the day Crossfire leaked Plame’s name. The days leading to her leak Novak hinted at it, mentioning people whose wives or husbands donated to Democrats as perhaps being enemies of Bush and loyal to Kerry.
There are some complex overlying justifications created to accomplish spying on Valerie Wilson once they determined she was playing a role alongside her husband. Porter Goss worked with her previously in the CIA and did much talk at the White House in creating DoHS and with the INTEL committee as a ranking member for the House.
Thus Goss’ later appointment was with intent to create additional hurtles there, and in other areas, particulalry Dukestir’s card buddies, etc.
Look close to Porter Goss.
As for the investigation, and the underlying reasons the meeting took place, until Fitz started pushing the questions with the DoE(Energy was given the same status as CIA and FBI within the DCI on the Intelligence Community overhaul preceding 9-11). Energy people started to verify their contacts with the Niger Ambassador and a Four Star General’s corroboration on the Niger conclusions. Internally the override apparatus was stovepiped by Bolton with help from OSP leads in media, often with journalists directly traveling abroad aboard Executive flights to Africa(such as Dubya’s trip there where the first documented mention of Plame occurred via deliveray of Fax).
The White House is PR driven, Rove had view of all Communications, itself a violation of her own status. Plame was being phished out deductively in efforts to verify her role(that is where the Who’s Who reference came from). She was already a known known in that she was married to Wilson and confirmed by Gossparticularly.
That she was CPD came later, minutes of the Principals communicated along the lines of OVP is where you need to look. Senate INTEL meeting along Goss/House in the need to send Wilson, the President of the Senate’s office, most likely Communications director, can confirm earlier Plame delivery verifies.
The ability to clearly draw this out lies in double sealed. Fitzgerald saying he’s done to this point is true, given classification nature of such indictments and political tact he’s learned in pursuit of Justice. Discovery can drive this further past such a point, I’m not familiar with sentencing but it may simply await offical lockdown status to go past this point, and it may simply await discovery which he knows the Wilsons’ civil suit will drive forward.
The interesting item is that Fitzgerald could perhaps be called to witness the Civil Trial, and can certainly use its discovery items(sealed or otherwise).
Libby’s going to be nuclear off the casualty count. There’s additional suspiscion to believe our rendetition gulags also took out Brewster assets by rendition. That will be talked about later, the most possible verifies for its network were Americans living overseas who died violently and worked in areas of interest to Plame’s capacity NOC in the official business field or within the agency regarding profiles likely to match the intelligence background of recruits.
TNH comment
Goss and WH talked, Rove and Novak talked, Armitage confirmed, Novak and Goss talked somewhere in that chain leading up to the Crossfire program that week, on the outing’s eve.
My first read at Firedoglake - fascinating blog!
It’s too bad this case isn’t prosecutable via RICO statutes because it truly appears that a gang of racketeers has successfully hijacked the executive office and very nearly seized the congress and judiciary. In addition to Libby, a RICO investigation would have swept up many conspirators taking part in this coup. We now must hope Plame’s civil suit will flush them out.
Welcome 873450!
Glad to have you here at the Lake. Hope you will stick around for some of our conversations.
——egregious
“The actual discrepancy between Novak’s and Harlow’s testimony, as I said, is clearer than Novak’s grammar. A WaPo article last July explained what Harlow apparently testified to.”-marcy
“A few days after the WaPo article, Novak responded with a rebuttal. First, he denies using the phrase “authorized” when he spoke to Harlow.” -marcy
Goss was at the meeting as a Principal(Ranking House Republican INTEL Committee, majority Chair). This would be consistent with his familiarity of Plame, he worked with her when she lived by that name. Her name is Wilson, but he knew her as Plame, thus the name stuck with him so.
The entire flap over Flame was a plausible attempt to evade the strict construction of the IIPA, and also an effort to somewhat slow the investigation while the other leaks and main story lede got out.
Thus Novak simply confirmed with Harlow what he heard elsewhere, three days before his story he was asking, he was around the phishing expedition, and got her original Company contacts from someone else. Armitage inadvertantly confirmed it.
Goss was a Crossfire guest that week.
One thing I’ve learned about FDL threads is that they get more and more interesting the further down you go. It takes a while for everybody to get down to the nitty-gritty. By then, many have left for newer threads and the lure of the elusive zed. They should stick around a little longer! This thread, which was a good one to begin with, has now got my complete attention.
Mr. Murder, your comments are very interesting.
“There’s additional suspiscion to believe our rendition gulags also took out Brewster assets by rendition.”
Holy crap! I never thought of that. These guys are unbelievably sinister. The CPD was too effective at preventing weapons smuggling and other black-ops neocon provocations to war. For the whole Total War thing to come off, CPD had to be stopped. The CIA has been witnessing a covert coup d’etat, starting with the kneecapping of their own agency—and they couldn’t say anything about it to the public because everything harmed by the neocons was too secret to acknowledge. Cheney’s and Rove’s guys have gone all through government with baseball bats and tire irons, maiming and crippling the institutions and honest people that might stand between them and permanent one-party rule. Treason is too tame a word for it.
Welcome, 873450! I almost giggled at your mention of RICO. No reflection on you at all, but the word “racketeers”, when applied to people such as these, sounds almost like “Mouseketeers”, doesn’t it? It doesn’t seem sufficiently weighty to describe people who lust after not just local or national power, but global empire and genocide and transformation of the world’s greatest republic into a feudal police state, while looting the world’s largest treasury in the process and transforming the mighty middle class into a great sea of desperation and homelessness.
I guess somebody will have to think of a new term for crimes this big?
Jeff Lomonaco @ 146
I did ask … thanks for being obsessed, it helps us all