“War is nothing but a continuation of politics with the admixture of other means.” – Clausewitz, On War
The first and most fundamental principle of warfare is to know what your goal is. This applies to any type of war, anywhere, at any time, no matter what tactic is used. Last year I was one of the first people to predict that Israel would lose to Hezbollah – because Israel’s stated goal was to destroy Hezbollah as an organization. Given that during a nearly two decade occupation Israel had been unable to destroy Hezbollah it was laughably obvious that Israel wasn’t going to succeed this time. (It turned out, that the magnitude of their loss was greater than I expected.)
In the Iraq war the US has a similar problem – the goals that were achievable have been achieved (overthrowing Saddam) and the goals that remain are both unclear (create a democracy friendly to the US? Permanent bases? Make sure western companies have the oil contracts?) and are probably not achievable with the amount of military force and spending the US is willing to expend. Therefore it has been clear for a long time (since before the invasion) that the US would not “win” the occupation in any real sense of the word. Indeed, at this point, the US is reduced to praying it can leave and not have the country crack up in a hot civil war. That might be achievable.
So it is with guerrillas. Guerrillas have to know what they can do, and can’t do, and what they want to do. The primary virtue of guerrillas is that it’s hard to wipe them out. The primary weakness of guerrillas is that they aren’t all that good at straight up fighting – as a rule, a competent regular army will routinely hand out loss after loss to guerrillas, who have to be content with picking off isolated units, with pinprick damage like bombs and snipers and with disrupting weakly defended supply and rear units. But in straight up firefights, with very rare exceptions, it’s usually pretty unpleasant to be a guerrilla (1)
We can take Clausewitz a step further. War is less the continuation of politics than the failure of politics. Nations and people engage in war when they feel they can get something they want more easily with force than through other means.
If people feel that the occupation of their country won’t end peacefully – then war is inevitable. If certain groups wish to impose their religion and know that it will not be allowed then war is a route to their goal. If people want law and order and occupation forces are unable to provide it – then a new government is necessary and if one cannot be obtained through peaceful means then it must be obtained through violent ones.
The failure of politics leads to war. The failure to provide law and order. The failure to rebuild infrastructure. The failure to provide belief in a promising future. The failure to align the interests of the occupation with the interests of the population. All of this sets up the preconditions for guerrilla warfare and rebellion.
Guerrillas in Iraq, for example, are fighting for when the US leaves. This is clear in the pattern of attacks, which throughout the war has been much heavier on opposing Iraqi groups and Iraqi “government” forces than it has been on Coalition forces. Enough pressure has to be kept on the US to get the US to leave, but the guerrillas know they cannot defeat the US in conventional terms. They can only cause more attrition than the US is politically capable of handling. So the goals of the various Iraqi armed groups might be said to be “To convince the US to leave by making the cost of staying too high, and to be in a good position to fight for or negotiate for their place in Iraq after the US has left.”
In Palestine, another guerrilla war, for all that it is not called that, the goals of the two sides are as follows – for Israel, to crush the Palestinian resistance while establishing facts on the ground which will allow them to impose the most favorable settlement in a two-state solution possible. For the Palestinians – don’t let the Israelis win.
Note that the Palestinian goal isn’t really to establish a Palestinian state. The Palestinians will take one if they can get a viable one, but they aren’t in a position to really pursue it. It’s to not lose to the Israelis – this is one reason why Arafat walked away from Clinton’s talks. The Israelis have been occupying Palestine for decades now. They can clearly hang on for a long time. They aren’t going to be “forced” out, the Palestinians don’t have what it takes and the Israelis have a high tolerance for low level attrition losses.
This points out something important about guerrilla warfare – guerrilla warfare is the strategy of the weak vs. the powerful. Palestinian losses, Iraqi insurgency losses, are much higher than those of the occupying forces. They always have been. They don’t have as good equipment. They aren’t (mostly) as well trained. They aren’t nearly as well organized. They are just not as good at fighting and killing. In fact, the superiority of the coalition over the Iraqi insurgency; or of the Israelis over the Palestinians is so striking that one wonders how it is that neither can actually really defeat their enemies. Let’s move to that next, with a quote from the greatest guerrilla leader of the 20th century – Mao…
“Many people think it impossible for guerrillas to exist for long in the enemy’s rear. Such a belief reveals lack of comprehension of the relationship that should exist between the people and the troops. The former may be likened to water the latter to the fish who inhabit it. How may it be said that these two cannot exist together? It is only undisciplined troops who make the people their enemies and who, like the fish out of its native element cannot live.” – Mao Tse Tung, On Guerrilla Warfare.
This is the most important point in this entire essay, and indeed the most important thing you need to know about guerrilla warfare, occupations, terrorism and insurgency. If the movement has the support of the population, they cannot be destroyed. Period. No matter how many you manage to kill, there will always be more. Now support doesn’t mean “do you prefer the guerrilla movement” in a poll, it means practical support – are they willing to feed them, hide them and act as their ears and eyes. The general estimate is that if a guerrilla movement has between 10% to 20% of the population of an area behind it, until you can break that support of the population for the guerrillas, any victories over them will be purely temporary.(2)
This doesn’t mean national support – if 20% of the population of California supported a violent succession movement, that would be sufficient to allow it to operate relatively successfully For much of the occupation Iraqi Shia have mostly not been shooting at Americans, but Iraqi Sunnis have supported more than enough insurgents to keep entire provinces in anarchy.
Let’s examine what this means. If you’re a guerrilla leader, it means you must do everything possible to build the support of the population. In Iraq this has meant that such law as is provided is often provided by various militias – someone rapes your sister, steals your car, murders your son – you go to them, and they help. Sadr helped put some power back on line for Sadr city. But more than positive things, what it means is making sure that the enemy does horrible things to the population – but not too horrible. The killing of the mercenaries in Fallujah, for example, was a classic guerrilla move – carefully staged (including the pictures, which are clearly stage managed) to cause an American overreaction That overreaction occurred, Fallujah was eventually effectively destroyed, and horrible atrocities occurred Sunnis then learned to hate Americans even more. On a lesser scale, every time an American soldier frags some old man at a stoplight; every time a girl is raped, every time there is “collateral” damage that takes out a wedding – all of these are meat for the propaganda mill. Mao is relentless in his writing that one of the major jobs of guerrillas is propaganda, and that every large guerrilla unit (bearing in mind this was in the early 20th century) should have its own press.
It should go without saying, but apparently doesn’t, that if you don’t want to arouse more hatred doing things like torturing people, sweeping up large numbers of people who aren’t associated with the insurgency and locking them up in a prison associated with torture from the old regime is the equivalent of handing the guerrillas supporters on a silver platter. Any atrocity that is not sufficiently large to make a specific person think “there’s a good chance this will happen to me” isn’t just immoral, it’s stupid. It is aiding and abetting the enemy.
As an army fighting an anti-insurgency campaign there are two routes to take to deal with the population’s support for a guerrilla movement. You can try and win the population over largely with honey, or you can make the population so scared and powerless that they won’t, or can’t, support the guerrillas The second method is a heck of a lot easier though the first method has been used successfully, most notably in the Malaysian Emergency.
Let’s talk about the easy way first. Scare and weaken the population into no longer supporting the insurgency. The primary method here is mass killing, and removal of the population to camps. If a city (like Fallujah) is a problem, you destroy it entirely, and you kill everyone in it, or at least every fighting-age male. This is one reason why US marines would not allow men out of Fallujah in the run up to the final assault. Do this often enough, and people get the message that supporting the insurgency is a really bad idea. And if you’re willing to kill hundreds of thousands or millions, well, you’re bound to get a lot of the right people, along with a lot of the wrong people. Immoral? Of course, but it does work. Take other towns and cities which are troublesome, but not quite so bad, and move the population to camps. This allows you to control the population in such a way that they can’t support guerrillas(3). Both of these methods were used by the US in the Philippines on a large scale. They worked. Wiping out a huge chunk of the population also worked for Russia against Chechnya (notable for inspiring enough hatred to spawn female suicide bombers, who were mostly avenging male relatives or lovers tortured to death by the Russians) and for Turkey against their own Kurds (a campaign notable for wiping out entire villages, killing the men and raping the women.) The camp strategy is currently being used by India against some of its indigenous guerrilla movements. A sufficiently ruthless commander could win the Iraq occupation in a few years, if given the green-light to commit massive atrocities and kill a couple million Iraqis.
The ruthless strategy doesn’t work when you don’t have the stomach (or moral imbecility) for it (the US in Iraq) or when you don’t have the means to wipe out enough population (the Japanese in China). It also has the effect of wrecking the economy of the nation you do it to, which can be a negative, but doesn’t have to be. If you’re conquering a nation for its natural resources, you really only need enough natives to extract them, after all. And if there’s no other economy but your plantations, mines and oil fields, well… that just means the workers are cheaper.
The “kill them with kindness strategy” is harder to pull off. It requires more men on the ground, and those men have to have fire discipline. The attitude of US troops that they’d rather make a mistake and blow away an Iraqi family is the exact antithesis of the sort of fire discipline required to not alienate the population. You must be willing to take some losses you wouldn’t otherwise take in order to not hand propaganda coups to the guerrillas
You need more men on the ground because you must protect the population from the guerrillas If you aren’t committing enough atrocities, then the guerrillas will either try and taunt you into doing so, or they’ll commit them for you – this is the method behind the apparent madness of car bombs and suicide vests. The guerrilla in this case is saying “if you ever want peace and order; if you ever want to feel safe; you will have to let me rule, because the enemy can’t stop me. The only group that can stop the killing is us, because we’re doing it, and the occupiers are too weak or incompetent to stop us.” In a sense this is the mirror of the ruthless strategy. In the ruthless strategy the anti-insurgency force says “we’ll keep killing, torturing and raping you in gross quantities till you stop supporting the insurgency”, when guerrillas do the same thing, it’s a retail version (although, as Iraq has demonstrated, the numbers can approach gross lots a lot faster than one would think. B52s aren’t needed to kill large numbers, they just make it easier.)
Safety is job one. If there is no safety in a country, the people will support whoever they think can give it to them.
Job two is prosperity. The hard way requires that you flood the country with money, jobs and prosperity. Important people (tribal leaders, Imans, village headman, etc) should be getting rich. Ordinary people should have jobs. Farmers should find that crop prices are up (support them if necessary, for God’s sake). They should recognize that they are better off under you than they could ever be under the guerrillas
The goal of reducing support for the guerrillas isn’t just about aid – it’s about informants. To break an insurgency you must, must, must have informants. You need people telling who are the leaders of the cells, warning you of attacks, etc… And you must be able to protect your informants. Every time I read that in Afghanistan some villagers who had accepted NATO help, or who were friendly with NATO, or who taught girls, have just been killed by the Taliban, I wince.
Job one in the friendly way is protecting your people – not your troops, who are expendable, but those of your allies, especially of local influentials in the population. (It’s important to get this through one’s head, a soldier’s life is not worth more than a friendly indigs in an anti-insurgency campaign. Not if you want to win.
Create prosperity, maintain law and order. Recruit informants. Protect your informants.
So much for the strategy of an insurgency – pro or con. Let’s talk about the operational and tactical details – the stuff that determines with Petraeus’s plan can work even in the short term, as just one example.
In general, guerrilla units disperse to operate:
When the enemy is in over-extended defense, and sufficient force cannot be concentrated against him, guerrillas must disperse, harass him, and demoralize him.
When encircled by the enemy, guerrillas disperse to withdraw.
When the nature of the ground limits action, guerrillas disperse.
When the availability of supplies limits action, they disperse.
Guerrillas disperse in order to promote mass movements over a wide area.
– Mao Tse Tung, “On Guerrilla Warfare”
When Petraeus flooded Baghdad with troops, what did the enemy do? They dispersed much of their force into the provinces. This operates at the highest level like that, and at the smallest level. Let’s say you’re operating in urban environments and you encircle a group. They drop their weapons and disperse amongst the population. How are you going to capture or kill them unless people are either willing to point them out to you or you are willing to simply kill everyone? (Or every male, as the Marines did in Fallujah.)
Let’s say a guerrilla unit wants to move from city A to city B? Do they do it as a convoy? No, each man travels by himself, without weapons, in civilian garb, and once he reaches the city they gather together and are rearmed by local cells or just by the local black market. You can slow this process down by the sort of methods the Israelis use, of dividing the country into cantons and restricting movement between them, but you can’t stop in entirely (and remember that the Israeli occupied territories are tiny compared to Iraq).
Let’s say there are no good targets. You simply don’t fight – but unless your enemy has enough forces to garrison every part of the country in such numbers that you can’t defeat any group in detail – you control all parts of the country where the enemy is not and the population supports you.
So, what happens if the the anti-insurgency forces break up into smaller groups to pursue the guerrilla forces which have likewise broken up? Or what happens if you start putting small units in every little neighborhood, to provide law and safety. Sun Tzu and Mao tell us…
If we are concentrated while the enemy is fragmented. If we are concentrated into a single force while he is fragmented into ten, then we attack him with ten times his strength. Thus we are many and the enemy is few. If we attack his few with our many those who we engage in battle will be severely constrained.” – Sun Tzu, “The Art of War”
Guerrillas concentrate when the enemy is advancing upon them, and there is opportunity to fall upon him and destroy him. Concentration may be desirable when the enemy is on the defensive and guerrillas wish to destroy isolated detachments in particular localities. By the term ‘concentrate’, we do not mean the assembly of all manpower but rather of only that necessary for the task. The remaining guerrillas are assigned missions of hindering and delaying the enemy, of destroys isolated groups, or of conducting mass propaganda. – Mao Tse Tung, “On Guerrilla Warfare”
So if the occupiers divide their forces up, the guerrillas concentrate and attack in overwhelming force. Because guerrillas can move like fish in the ocean, which is to say, they can usually concentrate at the site of the attack without the defenders knowing, because they don’t move as obvious formations of enemy troops, they will in almost every case have tactical surprise. It is a testament to US military superiority (and air and artillery) that despite multiple attempts to overrun various smaller US bases, the US has held on to them. But it is always a risk, because you can never tell when an attack is going to happen and the enemy knows when you concentrate (they can hardly miss it, with the population as their eyes and ears) but you can’t tell then guerrillas will concentrate and attack.
In addition to the dispersion and concentration of forces, the leader must understand what is termed ‘alert shifting’. When the enemy feels the danger of guerrillas, he will generally send troops out to attack them. The guerrillas must consider the situation and decide at what time and at what place they wish to fight. If they find that they cannot fight, they must immediately shift. Then the enemy may be destroyed piecemeal. For example; after a guerrilla group has destroyed an enemy detachment at one place, it may be shifted to another area to attack and destroy a second detachment. Sometimes, it will not be profitable for a unit to become engaged in a certain area, and in that case, it must move immediately. – Mao Tse Tung, “On Guerrilla Warfare.”
Again, if a strong force is attacking, disperse, find a weaker force, and re-concentrate to attack it.
Let’s wrap this up, letting Sun Tzu, who wrote the first known treatise on strategy, start us along the path:
Being unconquerable lies with yourself, being conquerable lies with the enemy. Thus one who excels in warfare is able to make himself unconquerable, but cannot necessarily cause the enemy to be conquerable. – Sun Tzu, “On War”.
As noted near the beginning, guerrilla warfare is the strategy of the weak, faced with the strong. It is also the warfare of an oppressed population against those who oppress them. This can’t be stressed enough. Though a guerrilla movement needs nowhere near the support of a majority of the population, it can’t survive without substantial, popular, support. The Taliban have many followers. So does the Sunni insurgency. So does Hamas. So did Hezbollah when they were fighting a guerrilla war.
Whenever you are fighting a guerrilla movement of any power, you are also, effectively, at war with part of the population. On top of the strategic and tactical implications we already discussed, this has moral implications that should be carefully thought through, and even more carefully as the percentage of support creeps up and past 50%, as it does in many cases. Does the will of the people matter? Do you have a right to force them to accept what you think is best?
This is the case even of movements at less than 50%. Perhaps the majority of the population doesn’t support them, and thus you have a moral mandate to fight them – but why is it that a significant minority is so angry they are willing to support this level of violence? If you don’t understand that “why”, not only will you have a hard time defeating them but the phrase “tyranny of the majority” could have real resonance. Of course, they could support them because the guerillas have terrorized them into support, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they like you, either.
Guerrilla warfare is what the weak do when the strong have defeated them. It’s the moment when they say, “no, this isn’t over till I say it is”. At that point you have a choice of putting the boots to their ribs till they come lick your boots or you can try and convince them that fighting you isn’t the best path to the peace, prosperity, dignity and self determination that all people want.
Or you can walk away, and let them rule themselves.(5)
War is indeed politics with an admixture of other means. Understanding those means, what their limitations are, what is required to use them and win, and the moral choices they will force on you, should be required of anyone who is in a position to commit a country or a people to war. Once let loose, the dogs of war often slip the leash of he who thought to control them.
NotesThe picture at the top is of a female Kurdish soldier, almost certainly a guerilla, though I can’t say for sure. It is from this Kurdish gallery archive site, which is more than worth your time to visit.
(1) Important aside: Hezbollah’s troops, while trained to operate as guerrillas, are regular soldiers. As one military analyst quipped to me “what do you call light infantry trained to operate as guerrillas? Special forces”. Israel smashed its face in against a heavily fortified special forces army. Puts it in a new light, doesn’t it?(2) In the Revolutionary war one estimate is that the rebels had about a third of the population, the Tories about a third, and about a third just wanted all the guys with guns to go away. Note that the rebels did manage to field a conventional army, with the strong support of France. It is generally a good sign for an insurgency if it can support a regular army alongside the guerrilla resistance, again, because guerrillas can only win by wars of attrition “to hell with it, it’s not worth it”, not through battlefield success. A regular army is not so limited.(3) Protecting the population may sometimes require setting up camps or fortifying existing villages. Because camps are used in the ruthless method as well, and because the ruthless method is used more often, they’re generally considered bad things. But they are usually part of the kinder anti-insurgency strategy as well, especially in rural areas.(4) The full text of Mao’s “On Guerrilla Warfare” can be found here. The section with most of the more generic advice (not particular to the Chinese/Japanese war) can be found here.(5) This isn’t always easy. For example, in Northern Ireland, the Brits would have loved to walk away. Problem was – the majority of the population wanted them to stay. Ouch.
Related posts:
- Progressives, Conservatives And Counterinsurgents
- Ben Nelson Calls House Health Care Bill “Class Warfare”
- Foreign Service Officer Resigns His Post in Afghanistan
- More Troops for Afghanistan? Faster Withdrawal from Iraq?
- In Exclusive Interview, Matthew Hoh Says Escalation in Afghanistan a “Terrible Way to Prove a Point”





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uno
Don’t know if this is OT or not…
apologies if it is… no time right now
Timmeh apparently chose Helen Thomas as his major interview of the weekend.
on CNBC here now EDT, & presumably tomorrow various times, i hope i hope.
sorry. i revere this incredible lady(!)
omg, she’s talking Habeas Corpus at him…
bye….. & sorry (just a bad time of day for this)
{{{{{FDL}}}}}
Ian, What a great post, can we forward it to the president?
Bloggers have internalized this message…
Unseat the BusChen Occupation Administration — it is what the population wants.
JPL @ 3
YEP, the spirit of Steve Gilliard anointed you.
Ian – amazing work.
Thanks for all the research that such a thorough piece must have required.
Now for thorough reading!
I haven’t read the whole thing yet (damn it’s long!) but I have a question about this part:
This doesn’t mean national support – if 20% of the population of California supported a violent succession movement, that would be sufficient to allow it to operate relatively successfully
Why didn’t that apply to the South after the American Civil War? I’m sure more than 20% of southerners wanted to secede.
OT, I learned this from emptywheel, it’s called 4G war. We have land superiority 1G, we have vast superiority on the sea 2G, we have vast air superiority 3G. We’re getting our ass kicked, because it’s a 4G war, a battle for hearts and minds.
OT, fwiw, I prefer calling it an occupation.
Yep.
I have also seen that the US has begun to arm Iraqi Sunni groups to fight Al Qaeda.
Methinks that is quite the double edged sword.
First the Sunni groups can play the good guys with the US military until they decide they want fight the US…then they can use the weapons and money and intelligence given them against the US.
Secondly it may confirm the notion of many Iraqi Shiites that the US will stab them in the back once again….
-GSD
So you think there’s concern about the Shite’s support for Iran?
Your post illustrates what the history books don’t teach about Robert E. Lee and why he is such a hero for the whole nation (not just the south). Right before Appotamatox, this is what all his generals were urging him to do. Disband the Army of Northern VA and continue to fight a guerilla war. There were huge crowds in the North that wanted to hang Lee as a war criminal and he had a lot of people telling him to go get to Europe. It took tremendous personal courage for him to go to Appotmattox. He had every right to think he would be taken away in chains and paraded throughout the North. As bad as reconstruction was for everyone, it would have been exponentially worse without Appomattox. Grant and Sherman then did their part and protected Lee after Lincoln’s death. That pissed off a lot of people in the North whose sons had died in battles with the Army of Northern VA.
Caveat about my 4;24, Lee AFAIK, was a lot better about civil rights for the freed slaves than a lot of Northern Generals, one example being William Tecumseh Sherman.
I thought they used the book, The Art of War, in MBA programs. Didn’t gwb do his homework?
Sisters and brothers in Iraq fighting against oppression, occupation, the indiscriminate killing of your women and children and the stealing of your resources: Fight on! Don’t ever give up!
The problem with Turkey is that there are Kurds in their way.
-GSD
Milan River @ 13
No. Bush and Cheney’s foreign policy consists solely of saying f*ck you, continuously to everyone. Art of War doesn’t recommend that strategy.
That pix at the top. I love it!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 14
You’re telling them to kill our troops.
OT, every day we’re there, makes us weaker. It cost $270,000,000/day before the surges. Russia and Iran become more dominant in the region. Former Soviet Republics are drawn into a tighter orbit around Moscow.
Thanks for the excellent analysis above about the regional issues between Sunni, Shia and Kurd.
Milan River @ 13
No.
Thanks for this round of simple answers to simple questions. :)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 17
OKK please, I will not bother again, as long as someone alerts the group about Helen’s Timmeh interview. I promise to leave now, and savor this post & thread later ;->
Native American reservations are a good example of historical US facts that back up Ian’s post. They haven’t exactly seceded, but they have enormous autonomy relative to the rest of the nation.
OK, this takes the cake: Bush quoting the Bible before meeting with the pope. The instruction, he believes, applies to how we’re running the war in Iraq.
Too bad he doesn’t think it applies to Scooter Libby, too:
“I think His Holy Father will be pleased to know that much of our foreign policy is based on the admonition to whom much is given, much is required,” Bush said in a pre-trip interview.
I prefer that other military analyst Edwin Starr:
Riesz Fischer @ 18
This sort of baiting gets tedious.
Riesz Fischer @ 7
They decided not to fight. Lee specifically asked them not to, and they honored his wish. Lee said, near his death, that if he had known how the North would treat the South during succession he would have chosen otherwise.
Excellent, excellent essay Ian.
I usually get to your posts much later, so let me take this opportunity to thank you for being here. I’ve been learning a lot.
It might be noted that the use of Total Warfare to defeat guerillas (Chechnya example above) was tried by the Soviets in Afghanistan and didn’t work. It’s really outmoded because only the evilest of oppressors could get away with it anymore, and even W wouldn’t want to be included in this category–Falluja notwithstanding.
The ink spot (or oil spot) theory of winning over the population is also mostly flawed, especially when executed by outsiders. It’s been tried mutliple times, without success, in Iraq & also in Vietnam (strategic hamlets).
End result: guerilla wars can seldom be won. The Israel point is the key: if you are willing to suppress the occupied population enough and willing to suffer low level casualties, you can continue to rule a piece of geography for a long time. Won’t work in Iraq where the population is much less pliable than the Palestinians.
Re Iraq insurgencies, the following might be of interest. Cockburn’s bio of Rumsfeld is the only place I have ever read that the insurgency was planned before the U.S. invasion. I subsequently learned from an army major efriend that the “plan” was crafted after what the Brits would have done had the Germans successfully invaded UK during WWII. It was put together by an Iraqi general who had attended Sandhurst.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 14
Sisters and brothers in Iraq fighting against oppression, occupation, the indiscriminate killing of your women and children and the stealing of your resources: Fight on! Don’t ever give up!
My son just told me last night he’s signing up for the army. While there is a good chance he can avoid Iraq, one must admit that there’s at least an equally good chance that he won’t.
Thanks a lot.
edit: Was that “tedious” enough for you?
I guess gwb doesn’t have enough Feng in his shui for such wisdom.
If one is old enough to join the military, and decides to serve under the present Commander in Chief, they are old enough to understand the possible consequences. There is no military conscription.
Thanks, Ian. Great post, BTW.
John Casper @ 8
Hi John!
Some of the writers on antiwar discuss 4G warfare concepts at length, if you’d like further references.
(the blog is libertarian, but strongly opposes the Iraq Occupation and strongly opposed the Iraq War.)
If any foreign power invades my country, the United States. I will fight them with everything I can get my hands on.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 31
Thanks for your concern.
[Mod Note; edited.]
Hugh @ 24
…good god y’all…ain’t nuthin’ but a heartbreaker
E.Starr War w/Iraq images
The Iraq business is not a war. It is an ‘occupation’ as Casper says.
The Iraq war should be going so much better what with the Preznit coming from a warrior family and having spent so much time studying military tactics and leadership as an officer in the Texas Air National Guard. Who would have guessed that it would turn out like it has?
eCAHNomics @ 28
Yet the total war theory did work in both Chechnya and in Turkey’s Kurdish area. (The current Kurdish problems are caused because the Kurds have an outside base.) No tactic or strategy is foolproof, but total war has the best record against guerillas. Guerillas are often defeated, in fact, they lose quite often , even on a strategic scale (look at the current record of most guerilla movements in Africa and Latin America, for example.)
The inkspot theory was not done well at all in Vietnam or Iraq. Trying something in a completely desultory fashion usually results in failure. I will grant that it is a difficult strategy to pull off, but I’ll also note that almost no one ever tries – they either go the total war route, or they do ink-spot as a sideshow to other strategies. In Iraq in particular it wasn’t tried in any way that would have ever allowed it to work.
I would also add (as I tried to indicate above without being specific) that US soldiers (with only a few specific exceptions, like green berets) are nearly wothless at “kind” anti-insurrection strategies, because they “shoot first and ask questions later”. Added to Bush’s insistence on handing the insurgency propoganda coups (abu Ghraib most specifically, but other idiocies regularly) and a refusal to flood the country with real aid that got into the hands of Iraqis (cutting Haliburton checks does Iraqis no good) and ink-spot never ever stood a chance.
Petraeus is currently trying an ink-spot variation. It is far too late for it to work. Iraq is lost.
Afghanistan is still (theoretically) winnable.
I may disccus Iraq and Afghanistan more specifically next week, I wanted to put up this post to give the background first, however.
This is how I would define “War”
The failure of effective diplomacy leads to war…
War: subjecation or resistance of a people through force for access and control of desired assets or beliefs…
What exactly have our dead service men and women who have perished in Iraq died for?
Great post! If anyone is interested in exploring some of the wider implications of population supported insurgencies, I recommend Jonathan Schell’s The Unconquerable World.
Thanks Kirk.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 34
It’s one thing to resist the war and another to cheer for the insurgency. Of course your cheering isn’t going to have any effect on the war but the fact is that you’re encouraging the insurgents to kill our men and women. I think you’re out of line.
Other Pat at 23:
gwb also believes in those other biblical principles- to the victors go the spoils, and finders keepers.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 40
Check the gains in net worth for the Bush family and for Cheney when it is all over and you will have the answer.
Ian, are you familiar with the Hunt Report on US Occupations that IIRC, is still taught at West Point?
We have a know liar sitting in the Oval Office. Among other lies this man Bush took us into Iraq under the guise that Saddam had WMD’s.
Riesz Fischer @ 44
Why don’t you sign up!
jayt @ 29
My son just told me last night he’s signing up for the army. While there is a good chance he can avoid Iraq, one must admit that there’s at least an equally good chance that he won’t.
Thanks a lot.
edit: Was that “tedious” enough for you?
jayt@29
my very best to you and your son. no matter the circumstances, very tough on a parent.
This is also why I think all the hand-wringing about Blackwater taking over the Us is silly. Talk about an armed population. . .
Badwater @ 46
Exactly.
John Casper @ 47
I’m not, actually.
People want a sustainable environment. We need a government who will work for the sustainability of the population too. Now, in certain places, the government is doing just that:
Resistance dissipates the power of applied force…
The Emancipated Elephants see it too…
Cities Take Lead On Environment As Debate Drags At Federal Level
522 Mayors Have Agreed To Meet Kyoto Standards
By Anthony Faiola and Robin Shulman
Washington Post Staff Writers
Saturday, June 9, 2007; Page A01
Riesz Fischer @ 44
I don’t think you read the Kiddo’s post carefully.
I support the troops. I say bring them home. And for those considering enlistment: Don’t do it!
Ian, this is a remarkable post. Thank you.
I look forward to your post on Afghanistan. However I fear that, since they have no oil, they will again be ignored and again rise to cause mischeif in the world.
Ian Welsh @ 39
Good point about Turkey’s Kurdish area; hadn’t thought of that example.
Total warfare also used successfully by U.S. against Indians and in Boer War. God help us all.
Also good point about oil spot usually being desultory & completely impossible with current U.S. rules of engagement. U.S. manual was just written less than a year ago, assumes the outcome (great trick if you can get it to work), rather than the investigate the difficulties of getting it to work, and no one is trained in it yet anyhow.
BTW, no one at any U.S. military college did lessons learned from VN, except for the exceptional one of two who were told it would be a career cappper. Chasing Ghosts by John Tierney (two books with same title; other one is about Iraq) details all the insurgencies the U.S. has fought and how we needed to invent it anew everytime because we failed to learn from the past. Not pretty stories.
I declared U.S. defeat in Iraq the day the looting began, though withheld announcing my opinion for another year just to see if anything was being learned.
Its OK mods in #30- its the arrangement of space to achieve harmony.
eCAHNomics @ 56
I thought the Boer War was the classic guerrilla war, am I wrong?
raven @ 53
Did you read his post at 14?
Ian, you framed that very well and it’s that framing that progressives HAVE to embrace;
“our military WON, they were an UNQUALIFIED success, what has FAILED is this president concept for what the job is for the armed forces of the United States of America.
the president has demonstrated he has NO military expertise, he INSISTS on tasking our military with missions that everyone knows are not missions for the military”
see this?
cast the blame entirely where it belongs, on the people who think our military is something it is not, the military morons in the administration that insist on over ruling the sage military advice from those that actually have a military clue
That photo is haunting, Ian. Thanks.
I’ll get you a link. It completely supports your point. “If it positively has to be destroyed by 10:30AM tomorrow, Marines.”
It’s what their trained to do.
Directing traffic, acting like cops in a foreign country in a foreign language, very very bad idea.
Riesz Fischer @ 59
Sure didn’t my bad. One of the greatest mistakes we made in the Anti-War movement during Vietnam was to run around glorifying the VC and a the NVA.
eCAHNomics @ 56
Yeah, I declared loss before the invasion, mostly on the basis of “Bush and his people are complete incompetents – in theory it could be won, but not by these idiots”. But the looting was awful. I shocked all my liberals friends at the time by calling for a 24 hour curfew with absolute enforcement – shoot anyone in the streets who wasn’t in a fire engine or an ambulance. Most of them thought that was too harsh.
There also should have been, in the words of an Iraqi colonel at the time “an announcement from the radio and TV stations that after the curfew is over, everyone is to go back to work, except for the list of following people” (your purge list). The Bush administration didn’t even understand coup 101.
Raven; you’re being snarky, right?
I believe Blackwater has recruited the best, the brightest we had to offer out of the CIA and other agencies to work for a profit based corporation to protect the security interests of the US…
It’s what their trained to do.
Directing traffic, acting like cops in a foreign country in a foreign language, very very bad idea.
Sort of like having them on the DMZ and the Mobile Riverine Force combining the Army and the Navy in the Delta.
OK and jayt, I respect and like you both.
In my world (I’m a shrink), cognitions (”facts”/ ideas/ opinions /plans) are separate from emotions (feelings – NOT opinions).
Here I’d hope to see long-time (or new) commenters evincing compassion for the fate of other commenters’ family members even when disagreeing with the person’s ideas.
I know you’re capable of that compassion, OK, and I wish you had extended it to jayt.
I also wish jayt had not made a sarcastic inital stance (edit:) reply to your strong advocacy for the Iraqi resistance; I believe a different approach would have been more likely to elicit your compassion.
Many of us here – myself included – view the Iraq War and Occupation as a war crime. Many here – myself included – believe US troops inflicting violence on civilians in an illegal war are themselves committing war crimes.
And all of us love our familes.
Some on the Lake have served in Iraq/Afghanistan; others have family serving there.
I hope we’ll find a way to encompass all these disparate perspectives here on the Lake with grace and courtesy.
PS – I’m no angel here. I’ll eat megacorp apologists and chew with my mouth open, so I’m not implying I’m a paragon of virtue here. Far from it :)
My,my @ 65
Agreed, my point is that there aren’t enough of them to occupy this crazy ass country.
This is it, a kick ass description of the Hunt Report by Sara over at TNH (April 2006) entitled “Sorting out the Generals”
Bush, Cheney and the Pentagon just ignored it. You don’t use units that have taken casualties to occupy the people who shot them. I keep trying to get the MSM to pay attention via LTE and chats, but I’ve had zero luck.
Thanks again for a great post.
John Casper @ 69
Thanks John, I’ll be sure to read it.
Raven:
I agree…
One of my concerns is what we have left to work with with agencies such as the CIA with this exodus of talent and what exactly is the purpose of Blackwater and companies like them…
To make money above all like any other corporation..
I recently wrote a diary about Colonel John Boyd, one of the strategists who generated many of the ideas of 4G warfare, at Guerrilla War of the Mind: John Boyd’s Lessons on Counter-Guerrilla Campaigns:
I’m moving the explanation of the asterisk from the bottom of the slide to the top because it is the core concept and needs to be up front.
…Boyd is extremely useful because he actually defines success:
“Magnify our spirit and strength” while collapsing the adversary’s “will to resist.” This is conflict on the primary battlefield, the mind.
Those in power now have neither magnified our spirits and strengths nor collapsed the adversary’s will to resist. They’ve actually done the opposite of both, as if by plan. Because of that, I believe if we do not impeach the Bush/Cheney junta and support an international investigation of their war crimes, human rights abuses, and pork barrel profiteering, we will lose the war against Osama bin Laden and the other global guerrillas who will follow. Their own impeachment and international war crimes tribunals are necessary tactics in this Global War On Terror world the Bush/Cheney junta built in reaction, ostensibly, to 911 and bin Laden.
I know impeachment and war crimes trials would certainly magnify my spirit and strength. I think it would also confuse and confound our adversaries too.
Anyone who pays taxes is just as culpable.
Latest FaBlog: Fait Divers — Political Science
raven @ 58
Boer War from memory, so don’t hold me to the details: 400,000 Brits vs. 40,000 Boers. Geography was divided into grids, which were toally controlled. Women & children were moved off farms (so male fighters had no local support) into compounds. Much starvation among both male pops & women & children pops. About the most stunning examples of Total Warfare that can be found.
Riesz Fischer @ 44
Agreed. Respect you OKK, and can understand the empathy, but I completely disagree with your open throated encouragement.
JayT, I’m sorry man. My little (20 yrs younger) brother is apparently signing up next month too. Still a great opportunity and beginning for lots of people, but what a horrible time to be joining.
Raven@58
Aye, in many ways it was, and the Boer’s lost, though not before doing a heck of a lot of damage. The Brits put them down brutally.
One thing I recall (and I could recall incorrectly) is that at one point the Brits formed a literal line of soldiers and marched across the Boer countryside, searching for soldiers.
The main things I look for when I try and figure out if someone will win a war is this “can they do what is needed to win, and will they”.
The Brits were willing to do whatever it took.
Them main reason I am pessimistic about Afghanistan, for example, isn’t that it isn’t theoretically winnable, it’s that I don’t think anyone is willing to spend the money, troops and time to do what needs to be done to win.
If we (and it is we, Afghanistan being a NATO op, with a lot of Canadian troops in theater) won’t do what is needed to win, and if the enemy will (and the Taliban sure as heck will) then we will lose.
Which is a pity, because the Afghanis as a whole don’t much like the Taliban. It’s a winnable war.
Only the names have changed…
ironically… Or not…! Yep — Rupert’s dad.
Guess I was thinking of this one
1880-81 war
The war began on 16 December 1880 with shots fired by Transvaal Boers (farmers) at Potchefstroom after Transvaal formally declared independence from Great Britain. It led to the action at Bronkhorstspruit on 20 December 1880, where the Boers ambushed and destroyed a British Army convoy. From 22 December 1880 to 6 January 1881, British army garrisons all over the Transvaal became besieged.
The Boers were dressed in their everyday farming clothes, which were a neutral or earthtone khaki clothing, whereas the British uniforms were still bright scarlet red, a stark contrast to the African landscape, which enabled the Boers, being expert marksmen, to easily snipe at British troops from a distance. Other significant advantages to the Boers included their widespread adoption of the breech loading rifle, which could be aimed, fired, and reloaded from a prone position, and the Boers’ unconventional military tactics, which relied more on stealth and speed than discipline and formation.
The besieging of the British garrisons led to the Battle of Laing’s Nek on 28 January 1881 where a British force composed of the Natal Field Force under Major-General Sir George Pomeroy Colley attempted to break through the Boer positions on the Drakensberg range to relieve their garrisons. But the Boers, under the command of Piet Joubert repulsed the British cavalry and infantry attacks.
Further actions included the Battle of Schuinshoogte (also known as Ingogo) on 8 February 1881, where another British force barely escaped destruction. The final humiliation for the British was at the Battle of Majuba Hill on 27 February 1881, where several Boer groups stormed the hill and drove off the British, and Colley was killed. During the Second Boer War, one of the British slogans was Remember Majuba.
Powerful article Ian. Now to read the comments.
Sun Tzu, “The Art of War” also a great self-help guide.
Sun Tzu said: If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.
Let me get this straight. We are in Iraq, based upon lies, and are responsible for killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and as the Speaker said the other night on “Hardball”, that 70 percent of the American people are against the occupation of Iraq, and to want the troops out, and that supporting the Iraqi’s for wanting us out and fighting us to that end is bad?
raven @ 73
No raven – my fedeal taxes are legally compelled.
As Lt. Watada points out, the Iraq War and Occupation have been found illegal by the United Nations.
We established at Nuremberg that even conscripts following illegal orders are responsible as individuals for their complicity in war crimes.
As much as American exceptionalists may wish to deny it, the US is still subject to international law.
Our Iraq War and Occupation are war crimes; US officers who carry out orders to pursue this illegal war are complicit.
Lt. Watada showed tham the way – their moral cowardice in failing to follow him is upon them, not the tax code.
War criminals wear US uniforms, too.
tw3k @ 80
Hah. I’m thinking of using that quote for my article next week, actually. :) (one of “great minds” or “fools seldome differe” ;) )
On this issue of is Afghanistan winnable, it depends on the Afghans, not us. And given the history of warfare in that poor country over the past 30 years, it’s like asking if a battered wife can have a healthy relationship with a male.
But like Iraq, the best thing to do is for all troops to leave, let them sort out their own issues as best they can or can’t (while helping them in nonmilitary ways), and go back in militarily if necessary.
Often one’s best is no good enough.
If another country invades America, I will fight them tooth and nail.
JayT, I’m sorry man. My little (20 yrs younger) brother is apparently signing up next month too. Still a great opportunity and beginning for lots of people, but what a horrible time to be joining.
My buddies son, I was his first babysitter, graduated from college and got suckered into taking the “Special Forces” option. Almost no one really makes SF straight through basic, ait, jump school and SF training and he didn’t. Now he’s in Anbar as a grunt in the 2nd ID. Great kid, makes me fucking sick to think about it.
This essay is a masterpiece. I’m bookmarking it and going back to learn more by reading it again.
Sure sounds like Vietnam all over again.
jayt
you gotta be shittin’ me………have him sign up with kbr or krb, will make more money……..have a friend leaving in a week for iraq, i am totally pissed………..nothing i have said makes a difference.
That sucks raven. Thats what we’re all afraid of.
kirk murphy @ 80
We’re not talking Nuremberg here. It’s outrageous to say that all of the American troops in Iraq are committing a war crime by just being there. Only the troops who are actually committing crimes should be held responsible.
Why are you blaming the troops? They’re caught up in Cheney’s mess and you’re turning on them!
I agree with Raven– we already made this mistake in View Nam. I didn’t understand it then and I still don’t.
Anyone who pays taxes is just as culpable.
No raven – my fedeal taxes are legally compelled.
As Lt. Watada points out, the Iraq War and Occupation have been found illegal by the United Nations.
We established at Nuremberg that even conscripts following illegal orders are responsible as individuals for their complicity in war crimes.
As much as American exceptionalists may wish to deny it, the US is still subject to international law.
Our Iraq War and Occupation are war crimes; US officers who carry out orders to pursue this illegal war are complicit.
Lt. Watada showed tham the way – their moral cowardice in failing to follow him is upon them, not the tax code.
War criminals wear US uniforms, too.
Yea, well I gotta take a break. I don’t need any fucking lectures about war crimes from a megacorp eating shrink who is legally compelled to support the war financially.
I really agree with this.
Dems are going to have to compromise. My personal preference would be a quick strike force somewhere in the desert as far away from everything else as possible. I’m not sure how realistic that is, but our troops were trained to fight integrated with artillery and close air support. Bush and Cheney are literally inserting them into Black Hawk down. The fact that the Pentagon has allowed this to go on for so long is just sick. As your post so eloquently states, Iraq is a complete repudiation of the Powell Doctrine and everything everyone knows about the science of war.
I dislike establishing creds very much. But we have several members of our family currently serving in the Air Force and the Army. Fort Sill, Altus Air Force Base, Tinker AFB, in Germany and Fort Hood. Some in our family are facing second and third tours to Iraq. None of them want to go back.
jayt at 29
to add-
what the hell is he thinking after the battle with the recruiter with his step-brother????????????
huh????????
emotional overload, i think, lock him up for a month……….
FWIW, one thought, if commenters want to argue out a particular issue, one option is to take it to a previous thread.
Jane’s prior thread is actually still going a little bit, but the one before it, Footnoted, has been dead for awhile.
FITZ!
Patrick Fitzgerald on C SPAN 1 at 9:45 PM EDT speaking on the topic “What I Did Not Know About Public Service When I Graduated.” Fitz received an honorary Doctor of Laws degree from his alma mater two weeks ago. Accomplished individuals so honored by Amherst College are given the opporunity to speak on a related topic the day before commencemnt exercises when honrary degress are awarded. link
eCAHNomics @ 85
We aren’t giving it our best. And if we can’t protect them from the Taliban or at least make it so that the best cash crop isn’t illegal, they will give in to them.
Terrific essay, Ian, and spot-on. It would be nice if the folks who need this kind of education were actually interested in availing themselves of it.
I look at the woman’s face at the top… and I think wow! ;0). Politically speaking.
Ian,
Excellent post. Should be required reading for voter regisration (if that was acceptable), but certainly for high school graduation.
I just finished watching “Apocalypse Now – Redux” I thought about Bush when the general was saying “His methods have become (pause as if searching for the right word)…unsound”
raven @ 51
Raven the worry is about a terror attack being used as an excuse for martial law with Blackwater playing the part of the SS and the SA both were paramilitary groups loyal to the Nazi party and not Germany. Hitler Declared Matial law killed the Commies, Labour and every enemy his troops had on their list durning “the night of the Broken Glass, Kristallnatcht “. Remeber the FBI is last I heard still keeping track of members Peace groups and probably blogs like this. This undemocratic action has to stop!
Get out of Iraq now.
John Casper @ 94
The bloggy version of “take it outside” :-)
I agree. Not only is this not the place for this battle, but I really think that this battle is not winnable. It is not an either/or situation. It is just a horrible reality. I have one USMC nephew who has been to Iraq three times and another who will be going for the first time in a few months. Both joined before it was clear, at least to them, what a madman Bush is, and both are against this war.
neokneme @ 53
Good one! :)
markinsanfran at 56 “Ian, this is a remarkable post. Thank you.
I look forward to your post on Afghanistan. However I fear that, since they have no oil, they will again be ignored and again rise to cause mischeif in the world.”
ahhhhhhh, but there is a matter of wanting a pipeline through it…….
secession, though that can indeed lead to “succession”
That is a great essay!!!
Here is a crazy thought. Maybe the U.S should pull all their troops of the streets and just blatantly overtake, surround, and rebuild the oil operation in Iraq, while letting the Iraqis fight out their civil war amongst themselves. Then, when the Iraqis realize they don’t have anything to fight over other than religious differences, they’ll come begging for their oil back. The U.S. could then give it back to them – contingent upon peace and good behavior. Stupid, I know…..
I agree, Ian…
1) Withdraw from Iraq and have the neighbors and the UN resolve the the internecine conflicts.
2) Legalize the poppy crop in Afghanistan for the production of morphine, codeine and thebaine (as has been done in India and 11 other countires) especially to produce needed medicine for developing nations.
3) Increase the force in Afghanistan, and expand its multinational scope, in order to provide genuine infrastructure and security.
It’s about the only way out of a growing debacle.
Fwiw,
A friend of mine was a Kurdish guerrillero against Saddam for two years. It’s a miserable existance. It takes incredible motivation and hatred and sacrifice.
And it didn’t have to be.
Two points about the “Malaysian” strategy and Irak.
1) It isn’t IMO wise to ignore the fact that the British were fighting an ideologically unpopular minority of a racially unpopular minority. – The Malay population hated the Chinese like poison.
2) To defeat them the British had to promise the majority population that they would hightail it out of there.
The impression here is that progressives are coming to grips with “matters”. ;0)
LS
Let’s hear it for the unvarnished truth regarding Iraq!
It’s all about the oil!
It’s always been about the oil!
Interesting essay…but investigation into these matters always make me feel like a bit of a little boy plotting how to take the fort in a snowball fight.
I think when ML King Jr talked of how the gravity of war is overpowering and, if we allow it to, will destroy us all in the end is much more fruitful than Chairman Mao and his 80 million dead or Sun Tzu living in a land without robotic death predators under design.
The weapons we are using against the jihadists/guerillas/people and civilian non-combatants are horrendous. How many Vietnamese died 33 years ago? How many Cambodians? How many Iraquis will die? We have Generals now planning for low-level nuclear war in our tax-funded Pentagon, and the companies are lining up for munitions and firepower contracts!
War begets war.
Nuclear war is unwinnable.
Iran does not have to be turned into a radioactive guerilla zone.
While I appreciate your research Ian, it is important to remind oneself continually that war is not a television show or a late night movie. People die in war. As long as we tolerate war we empower psychopaths like Cheney and Joints Chief of Staff to plan mass murder. As long as we tolerate war we empower Bush to play the tough guy/fool for his corporate owners without any accountability to the laws of our common humanity.
As Zack de la Roacha said : “Fight war! Not wars.”
My belief is that woman in the pix at the top of this post is determined, principled and means business.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 34
Here’s a question with some relevancy:
At what point would you consider a philosophy which is used to encourage the destruction of everything we have been taught to hold dear the essence of a foreign power?
Using a biological analogy, a virus needs a host’s RNA to replicate itself in order to latch onto the host’s body and to disguise itself long enough to metastasize to a point where it has almost completely consumed the host. At some point it consists of more host material than virus, or foreign, material.
Where are we in our journey as a society if the Bush agenda represents the virus?
If we accept that the Bush agenda is foreign to our body politic, at what point do we consider the agenda and its propagators foreign enemies? And at what point do we decide they have invaded our country with the goal of completely destroying it?
No violence advocated in this posting, just a hypothetical and a serious question. At what point do we accept that there have been a number of coups in this country in the past 44 years with the intent of turning us into mindless consumer drones hidden by flag-waving and free market hyperbole while all the while dispelling any hint of their existence as the rantings of conspiracy theorists?
Just a thought from the cradle of the Bolshevik Revolution as I look out at the Lion Bridge spanning the Griboedev Canal.
Anybody hear Hillary in the Lute confirmation hearing? I must say, I am now impressed. She told Lute he needs to make sure there is a physical exit plan in place and went on to describe the difficulties of physically withdrawing the troops. She also told him to make sure that he dealt directly with W not with Cheney. I thought she was pretty awesome. Until now, I have been on the fence, but she really knows her shit.
The killing of large chunks of the population idea won’t work even if we tried it now Iran, Syria and lets face it even our “allies” Jordan and Saudia Arabia are helping the rebels. Giving them weapons, supplies, training and if we tried that Strategy a safe base of opperations in their countries where we could not get them without risking war. Plus any large scale killings would unite the Arab Nations against us”friendly cough governments” like the Saudi’s and Pakistani’s would or are already falling because of outrage over what we are doing in Iraq. We are uniting our enemies and replacing our “cough friends” with OUTRIGHT ENEMIES. Iraq is a piece how we act here effects the whole board the NeoCons problem is that they seem to think a pair beats a four of a kind.
While both have a role you’ve plainly not been in Irak lately. I have and my son has just returned from there. You have absolutely no idea how loathed hated and despised the UN is in Irak.
The UN at the behest of US implemented the sanctions. I saw how the UN officials behaved in Irak people ask me sometimes why in hell where they first the very first major target – and I’d invite them to go to the pediatric oncology wards.
The neighbours will have a role – the best one of which is simply to STFU and to stop egging on the fighting.
Irakis are well capable of sorting our their problems by themselves without external actors.
My,my @ 110
Thanks. I’m serious, I think the best thing to do now considering the mess we’re in is to take the Iraqi oil hostage – all of it, use it as direct leverage for cooperation and also in order to have leverage to get the troops out and down the road to Kuwait as safely as possible. Without the oil, the Iraqis are back to bedouin days. They don’t want that. They are a sophisticated people who are suffering because of our actions and they are fighting the only way they can. This is all about oil and strategic bases in the M.E.
I will vote for the nominee of my party, the Democratic Party, to take over the Oval Office in 2009. As things stand now. We have a lot of good Democratic candidates. And well, some not so good ones.
LS the US tried that and it didn’t work it didn’t work because there’s this desperately inconvenient thing called geography and pipelines run through it. The reason why Iraki oil production has plummeted is because their pipelines regularly get blown up.
things come undone @ 102
Actually it was the Night of the Long Knives when party members who had waivered in their devotion were killed as a message to others in the Party.
And Blackwater as it was used in NOLA in the aftermath of Katrina should scare every American.
The makings of a mass quarantine are happening now, with the man riding the plane showing everyone how quickly a disease can be spread, that news being trumpeted by the compliant news media, all this preceded by a presidential directive that, among other things, a public health emergency will trigger executive action in the form of department of defense personnel designated to assist local law enforcement in the event of, again among other things, a public health emergency.
Anyone else concerned that the father-in-law of our TB victim just happened to work for the CDC and that this past Thrusday or Friday, the Director of the CDC came out and stated that quarantine procedures need to be updated and strengthened.
They’re preparing for it folks, and it’s all being done out in the open against the backdrop of the USA firings, and the Libby sentencing, and Paris crying, and whatever the next distraction is going to be.
gmoke @ 73
“Magnify our spirit and strength” while collapsing the adversary’s “will to resist.” This is conflict on the primary battlefield, the mind.
Those in power now have neither magnified our spirits and strengths nor collapsed the adversary’s will to resist. They’ve actually done the opposite of both, as if by plan. Because of that, I believe if we do not impeach the Bush/Cheney junta and support an international investigation of their war crimes, human rights abuses, and pork barrel profiteering, we will lose the war against Osama bin Laden and the other global guerrillas who will follow. Their own impeachment and international war crimes tribunals are necessary tactics in this Global War On Terror world the Bush/Cheney junta built in reaction, ostensibly, to 911 and bin Laden.
I know impeachment and war crimes trials would certainly magnify my spirit and strength. I think it would also confuse and confound our adversaries too.
Exactly, if we can’t prove to the rest of the world that B/C was an aberation and that America is still the shining city on the hill, we can never recover our ability to criticize anything. The Americans who set up the war crimes tribunals at Nuremberg said, even the US should be held to such standards. No one has ever actually tried to hold us in all of our transgressions because of our strength. So it seems to me, we must do this ourselves. And unless Speaker Pelosi and Leader Reid understand this, our hypocricy will be a recruitment tool, and an excuse for all the world’s bad guys.
kirk murphy @ 80
Riesz Fischer @ 89
“We’re not talking Nuremberg here.”
KJM – Agreed:
Leni Reifensthal would have done far better than “Mission Accomplished”.
And despite his best efforts, Rove still can’t top Triumph of the Will.
I am talking about the legal principles established at the Nuremberg Tribunals, and about international human rights law.
“It’s outrageous to say that all of the American troops in Iraq are committing a war crime by just being there.”
kjm – I say they are complicit in following illegal orders. You say something else, and refute it.
Please be nicer to straw men – some of them are front page writers here.
“Only the troops who are actually committing crimes should be held responsible.”
kjm – I agree.
“Why are you blaming the troops?”
kjm -
Thanks, Riesz. I get all nostalgic hearing that trope. Takes me right back to when I turned eight – in 1968.
(Six months before Chicago – but who’s counting?)
Please read your conclusion in the preceding quoted sentence.
Please consult the Nuremberg Tribunal and Justice (to be) Jackson (? Supreme) for their conclusions.
” They’re caught up in Cheney’s mess and you’re turning on them!”
kjm – I do believe US enlisted are caught in the “poverty draft” and all are caught in “stop-loss”.
[Unless, of course, they have same-sex realtions. Or multiple partners. Or group sex.
Then the military knows they’re not fit to serve.
‘Cause the military fights for our freedom.
Right? But I digress.]
The US military officers in our illegal war can discharge their moral responsibility for their leaders’ war crimes through the door Lt. Watada opened.
American military officers who fail to follow Lt. Watada’s principled defense of the Constitution and our Republic against Bush/Cheney’s illegal orders are complicit in the illegal Invasion and Occupation of Iraq.
“I agree with Raven– we already made this mistake in View Nam. I didn’t understand it then and I still don’t.”
kjm – I find nothing to disagree with in your concluding sentence.
I think this post should be reprinted without the previous comments every month so we can track America’s progress on the war until we stop the war. By going back to the original post we can see how our own attitudes and opinions are developing I honestly have been waiting for us to have this conversation for a while. GREAT POST IAN!
True enough about the UN’s bad rep in Iraq, and about the culpability of the border nations, but it’s hard to imagine the country not decending into near-genocial tit-for-tat without some restraint and agreement on the part of the neighbors, and hard to imagine the Brits and US going along without some kind of UN presence or supervision.
I haven’t been to Iraq, so I may be off-base, but from the outside, it seems like a negotiated settlement with the extended stakeholders might be prudent.
You point out that,
I’m sure that’s true. But “sorting out” can take an awful lot of forms – some of them potentially even more destabilizing.
markfromireland @ 119
You are quite right, however, I’m saying put all the troop strength we have to guard the oil facilities and pipelines, rather than having the forces spread out all over the place.
emotional overload, i think, lock him up for a month……….
Not far wrong, actually.
He’s still scared for his safety here , and had gone completely nocturnal, guarding his door at night with a shotgun. Wouldn’t answer his phone or open the door. Frankly, this past year, he’s been on a bad path, I’ve found out. He probably does need to get out of town.
Last night, he called from my parents’ place, nice and rural, and safe. He’s always wanted to be in the army – said he’s been talking to them since he was 14. As someone said above – it’s just a horrible time to do it. My best hope is that he tests so highly (and he should – his SAT was top 2%) that they won’t want to waste him as a grunt. He should pass as bi-lingual, which would be a plus, since it would be in Spanish. And they’re offering him a shit-load of money.
I dunno – it’s just tough as a parent, and I don’t trust the Army at all. He, on the other hand, has no interest in any other branch. I’m having a bit of a hard time getting my head around it, is all.
And now I see mfi is here, and knowing some of what he and his son have been through, i feel a bit like a dick.
hi mods!
bless you for your work – hope the new model treats you well.
tahnks for treating us well.
I can’t edit for beans on the old model -
On this model, I’d love to change
“And despite his best efforts, Rove still can’t top Triumph of the Will, even Rove’s an amateur.”
to
“And despite his best efforts, even Rove still can’t Rove top Triumph of the Will.”
in the comment above.
Thanks!
Mod note: Done
Great bit of propaganda, Triumph of the Will.
Everyone should see it. Once you’ve seen Hitler surrounded by those flags you’ll never look at a political gathering here the same way.
What you’re seeing in Irak FOC is several wars simultaneously. There’s the war against the corrupt illegal racist and brutal invasion and occupation of Irak. More than 90% of all attack in Irak are against Americans and their local allies. That’s been admitted in Pentagon report after pentagon report after pentagon report.
The remaining violence is a mostly political war (which is not the same as civil war) about who gets what proportion of power in the place once the Americans have been booted out.
Horrific though they are the sectarian attacks are a very small proportion of the attacks. They grab headlines and inflame hatred because civilians are always easier to kill than anybody else.
markfromireland @ 109
I think you can explain our success with the Fillipino guerillas similarly. They weren’t fighting on our side in WWII because they wanted us back in power.
Jane has a new thing going upstairs!
Bob in HI
kirk murphy @ 127
Kirk, that crossed my mind too. A lot to be learned here.
Kirk Murphy: The US military officers in our illegal war can discharge their moral responsibility for their leaders’ war crimes through the door Lt. Watada opened.
Well then why don’t you enlist and go to Iraq and show them how it’s done?
Re the ‘all volunteer army’:
I don’t think it is as volunteer as gwb or anyone says it is. Many of the National Guard may have thought they would be filling sandbags along the Mississippi, or helping to move people to warmth in ice storms here in the states- not babysitting in a civil war. And, the forced, more numerous and longer deployments to Iraq, were not the understanding when many of the Army/Marine soldiers signed on. I am not so sure that the troops serving now were totally certain about the full consequences and reality of things given the changing missions, the poor planning, and the prewar intel that was ignored.
FYI, new thread
That’s not surprising given how the US behaved in the Philipines cujo – it’s that the Japanes were worse.
And where are you going to get the 600,000 troops you’ll need to that LS?
But do you really expect sectarian violence to decrease upon American withdrawl?
Doesn’t it seem likely that, as the Americans withdrew, Syrian and Iranian interference would increase in a grab for influence and resources?
Wouldn’t the sectarian conflict grow unless there were some kind of supervised circumstance and an agreement beforehand – negotiated on the strength of the US promise to withdraw?
Milan River @ 139
Well said! They had faith that their Commander-in-Chief would never abuse his power and use them as cannon fodder for his administration’s conflict-of-interest war-profiteering. It is a betrayal of national trust, plain and simple.
jayt-remind him of all of the confusing choices you had to make, make them real……..make his real, so he can sort them out………you can do it.
and afghanistan, we want a pipeline through their country, that is what this is all about.
nite all
We went to war because Bush/America wanted something they thought they could get easier by force than by other means. WMD didn’t exist, Stopping Saddam from killing people? Nope we gave him the WMD Poison Gas to do it he apparently used up and let degrade the WMD we gave him. Oil and a base for establishing a middle east Empire seem to be the real reasons we went to war. Now if we invaded Pakistan where Ossama is still at and Saudi Arabia which provided 15 hyjackers THAT I could understand. Face it America we were lied to. Now because of Bush’s FAILURE we are going to have to go all hybrid/electric cars wether Detroit survives or not or risk being DEPENDENT on those we tried to conquer! Bush has bet the rent money and the Social Security Check on a losing hand. Now either we stop him from gambling or someone else will come to collect from him and US. China comes to mind OPEC etc these are the new threats to America we have to plan for Brought to you and CREATED by Bush’s failure!
Freaked-Out Canadian @ 142
I don’t. Apparently the Iraqi’s have a word (which I am blanking on) that means basically phyrric victory, you kill all you need in order to come out on top. None of the other countries in the region have a word remotely like it, or even understand the philosophy behind it. But it’s part of the Iraq mentality and been used for hundreds of years.
“war is a profession by which a man cannot live honorably; an employment by which the soldier, if he would reap any profit, is obliged to be false, rapacious, and cruel.” machiavelli
“the very essence of cowardice is to pay another to do your violence.”
60yoh
peas!
Great post.
“Mao is relentless in his writing that one of the major jobs of guerrillas is propaganda, and that every large guerrilla unit (bearing in mind this was in the early 20th century) should have its own press.”
I believe some Republicans must have been reading Mao thirty years ago.
1) The Fairness Doctrine was nullified during what has been called the Reagan “Revolution.”
2) Federal anti-monopoly policies were rolled back, allowing the consolidation of our “information sources” into the hands of a few people, primarily those with totalitarian, neo-con Republican leanings.
3) Republicans, and their agents, started buying up U.S. television and radio media outlets, packing them with partisan Republican pundits, with no Fairness Doctrine in place to provide a counterbalance to all the neo-con Republican lies.
I’m certain Mao would be proud of what the neo-con Republicans have done to “freedom of the press” in America.
Of course, the neo-con Republicans, while making their plans for dominating our democracy (i.e. subjugating everyone) for the next several generations (i.e. forever), never envisioned the rise of an Internet Insurgency, which is currently acting as a major counterbalance to this anti-American Republican conspiracy.
So, Soldiers of the Internet Insurgency, ARISE!!
(Okay, you can sit back down now. Just checking to see if your two legs still work).
Yes.
Don’t take this wrong way with but with regard to Syria – bwaaaaaahahahahahaha. Nobody in Irak gives a flying eff about Syria.
With regard to Iran they’re the regional superpower and it’s way past time that Americans woke up to that fact. They’re going to have influence yes but it’s gretly overstated. That’s why they’re not meddling in Irak Da’wa and SIIC (SCIRI) are the two parties with links to Iran.
THey’re also the parties the US is propping up in the green zone government. I don’t see them lasting long once the US is booted out. If their cremem de la creme could only manage the pathetic performance they put up at An-Najaf … shrug … they wont last long.
Oracle 148,
“Of course, the neo-con Republicans, while making their plans for dominating our democracy (i.e. subjugating everyone) for the next several generations (i.e. forever), never envisioned the rise of an Internet Insurgency, which is currently acting as a major counterbalance to this anti-American Republican conspiracy.”
Funny how that happens!!!!!!
Very interesting post although I don’t think your analysis of either Israeli or Palestinian positions (goals and circumstances both) is correct. While it’s true that the Palestinians aren’t in a position to unilaterally create a viable state, Israel either isn’t in a position to crush Palestinian resistance or isn’t willing to do so given what that would require. By the same logic you apply to reasoning about the Palestinians’ goals, this can’t be a realistic goal of the Israelis. My read of the situation is that Arafat walked because he thought he could get a better deal later. Which might be true. The Israeli policy of “facts on the ground” is aimed at undercutting this logic by creating circumstances under which waiting longer will result in a worse deal for the Palestinians.
Riesz Fischer @ 138
That 14 year old Iraq girl who was raped by American Troops and her family killed while the American military covered things up well EVERYONE INVOLVED IN THAT CASE deserves to die! The regular American who shoots and kills a crowd of ordinary Iraqs in a panic after being shot at is not guilty of war crimes. Still I think the Focus should be on Bush for changing the Armies rules about torture and ALLLOWING IT!
COncern for your child is natural jayt. It was obvious from round about the time he could walk that Du was going to be a soldier. (To his soldier father’s horror) Even more to my horror and the only time I’ve ever had a major knock down drag out row with him was I find out that he’d opted to for training as a felix. Shrug – waste of time.
Ian, I’ve tried to post this three times and keep booting myself off the page because I’ve been trying to insert a link in it. I wanted to say this was brilliant.I was so enthralled I missed my favorite scene from African Queen, damn you I saved it so I can go back and follow the links, and the ones from the comment thread. I’m always amazed by the posters of this site and the commentors.
And if anyone wants to do something proactive that will really support the troops, (this is what booted me earlier) Brent Budowsky has a great suggestion for Troop Bonds over at Larry Johnson’s NoQuarter. Sorry no link. I am so not gonna try that again. So thanks Ian.
Wrong totally completely and absolutely counterfactually WRONG. Even under the US code of militarily law you´re wrong. Kindly get your facts straight.
Riesz Fischer @ 138
In America, the First Amendment is for those in and out of uniform.
Even in George Bush Jr’s America, we citizens participate in free speech about public affairs and honor the Constiution by exercising the rights our troops fought and died to protect.
I can respect their sacrifices – why can’t you?
Riesz Fischer @ 138
That 12 year old Iraq girl who was raped and her family killed while the military covered things up markfromireland @ 155
Ok I made an assumption I’m wrong sorry!
Apology accepted.
As a professional it gets right up me effing nose when civilians come up with excuses for war crimes. I have every sympathy for them on one level and absolutely none on another. Shooting civilians is murder and its always just as wrong as planting a bomb outside a mosque or a school. There’s a differnce in degree and motivation but both are still murder.
This isn’t open to negotiation.
markfromireland @ 158
That is where I made my mistake I assumed motivation and intent were necesary.
No and I decline to discuss this further as to express my feelings about those who do it and those who try to excuse it, and yes that is what you tried to do, I would have to resort to language that would get me permanently barred from the site.
mark, I respect your knowledge and miltary experience.
I come at human rights law from a PSR perspective (I am responsible for my views – I cite PSR to indicate how far I am from military experience.)
If you would be kind enough to demolish any and all inaccuracies you find in my comments about US troops’ legal responsibility, I will learn from you.
(Though I do reserve the right to disagree. Non-violently, of course :)
I did try to excuse it I see your point now.
markfromireland says
June 9th, 2007 at 6:43 pm
Thank you.
The “getting in” was so easy back there in early 2003 for the Americans into Iraq.
After the Kuwait Oil War the Americans had imposed the no-fly zones and international economic and trade sanctions were fully put in place on Iraq. After 9/11 and moreso after the successful issues frame-up of the GWOT G.W.Bush could have very easily put in motion a high powered,lavishly funded CIA contrived and orchestrated Iraq regime change. Getting rid of Saddam did not require Shock and Awe.
That is the truth.
What also is the truth is the United States has become what it repeatedly tells itself and the world what it is not. We are out to impose our ways and viewpoints onto the world stage just like Hitler’s Germany or the Japanese militarists of Imperial Japan. We are not the “good guys” much like what Israel is doing
in the WestBank/Gaza or did to Lebanon last summer does not grant Israel the “good guys” title.
If you are not the good guys then you have become something other or someone other. That is the equasion the Americans seems very slow at working through.
Who spends more on militarism year in and year out than the next 10 countries?
The USA does.
Who floats 12 super aircraft carriers and has over 700 military bases spread across the planet?
The USA does.
What is the better,more accurate version of what Americans spend on warmaking every year?
It hovers around 1 trillion dollars per year these days.
So Iraq has become a quaqmire? Why is that?
Because the Americans took out Saddam and his regime? Or because the Americans were not honest about the real reasons for invading Iraq? Again we are back to the quality/reality of American honesty and intent. Telling lies and telling more lies does finally collapse from lack of any credibility.
Unless the Americans are prepared to be honest with themselves about how we support the corporatists in America with a taxpayer funded mega-global warmaking machine we are all liars. If you are not the good guys in South America,Africa or the Middle East you are indeed the bad guys.
Americans are the bad guys in Iraq and as Ian points out if we fully impose our will by killing on a massive scale we surely can win.
But then we are no better than Hitler’s Nazi driven war/death machine or that of the Imperial Japanese warlords of the 1930’s.
The Americans are not being honest about the fiscal drift they are in,about the abuse of American economic power to enrich the corporatists or the monstrous militarism they underwrite steadily and ever upward.
Self deceit is the enemy America faces in Iraq,faced in Vietnam and indeed faces at home.
The telling of big lies litters American efforts in international and domestic affairs since the end of WW2. The Bush/Cheney regime did not begin that historical trail but have sadly taken the big lies farther and deeper in Iraq. They certainly are not prepared to confess to having done so either judging from what passes these days as Iraq policy form-up or debate amongst DC DEMS and the Bush/Cheney WH regime. The GOP as “the other party” in DC is fully overladen with self-deception.
One can expect(I expect it)to be heavily censored for suggesting Americans are not the good guys in the world today. Or the Israelis are not the good guys in the ME. Is China good then? Is Russia good then? Is al-Qaeda good? Do they lay claim to being the good guys? The Americans certainly do. And therein is the rub.If you choose to advertise that you are indeed the good guys then you had best be fully prepared to offer credible evidence that you are indeed just that. Big lie telling will and has undermined American credibility. Over and over since WW2. The loss of truth,of ethical and moral standing undermines political power and the crediblility of policy offer and support.
Getting into Iraq was easy.It was a result of some big lie telling. We know now the coveted “America Wins Again” mantra is lost in the deaths of hundreds of thousands Iraqis and now over 3,500 Americans.
The big lies are just that,big lies.What the Americans invaded Iraq about is better seen with the evidence of the super-bases and that American Citadel they now build in Baghdad. The American underwritten Iraq Oil Law. The ruthless attacks the USAF delivers everyday in Iraq where Iraqi innocents get bombed/missiled to death. Invading Iraq was/is about American ME hegemony. About American petro addiction/control needs. About how the corporatists have been allowed to call others the agents of terror when they themselves fully engage terror tactics to gain what they seek.
Telling big lies is the rot and decay the Americans must confront within themselves. What the Chinese do,the Russians do or al-Qaeda does is not under American control. What the Americans do or not do about the self deception that confronts them is fully within the power of all Americans to confront and decide on. To not endorse. To not let stand.
Or to endorse. To let stand. To remain blind to.
Americans must face themselves. What do we stand for and what do we actually do? Are we the good guys today or the big lie tellers? This tough battle must be fought first and then we can better go into the world.
Stop the big lie tell.
markfromireland @ 113
Those two conditions were actually fairly well approximated in Iraq at one point. Or at least 1 was and 2 should have been.
Kirk take a look at this first. Tell me what you see.
Ian: I’d be interested to read why you think (1) was met.
oh, merde -
markfromireland
I apologize. I am a very slow typist. I put up my question without ever seeing your 7:01.
My bad – no disrespect or discourtesy intended.
markfromireland @ 166
mfi, thank you for the very real image of very real people: not only am I ignorant of the Arabic, but also I can’t imagine their families’ suffering – or theirs’.
None of the US or UK (or “Alliance”) troops or the Occupation civilian staff / contractors deserve to suffer.
I hope none of them do – I want every US/UK/Alliance forces member safe and home.
Of course, I want the same for the Iraqis.
One of the major reasons that the American people cannot acknowledge the true nature of this occupation is because the 4th Estate has been lying to them since Bill Clinton was elected. The MSM is a MAJOR PART of the military industrial complex that is driving our trillion dollar war machine. The Bush/Cheney combine, Lockheed-Martin, General Dynamics, et al, are the engine that is fed by constant munition expenditures and ever more complex weapons systems. Until this monster is publicly exposed, and the American people totally reject the benefits of the economic gains and jobs realized from this beast, this type of foreign policy will continue, regardless of which party is in charge. Just look at the betrayal of the Dems in caving to Bush after on lousy shot at de-funding the occupation. It is all a big charade, and OUR TROOPS are the biggest losers of all.
Not to worry kirk – i’m having server problems so i posted that image to thumbsnap – what does it say on the bottom of the ID card for those two unfortunate young men?
It says:
Now a few points have to be made:
They were in Irak.
They are therefore legitimate targets.
Those who captured them can make a damn good case that they had every right to capture them and hold them prisoner.
So far no war crime.
The crime arose because they killed them and moreover I very much doubt that they died quick or died clean.
The fighters who killed them are war criminals.
Even greater protections are extended to civilians it’s not a question of human rights law they don’t apply.
They don’t apply because a soldier is under the jurisdiction of a
code. it’s not called (in the US) the “Code of Military Justice for nothing. You give up some rights such as the right to free speech on certain matters. You’re not allowed criticise the civilian leadership in the pentagon or the whitehouse.You also are required to act in a well-nigh superhuman way. Such as immediately giving medical treatment to somebody who has just tried to kill you. And soldiers do it all the time. Once they STOP doing it they cease being soldiers.
Those conventions and that code are there for a reason. The same reason that the Red Cross was founded.
Think about it :-)
thanks, mark -
as my beloved Ohio relatives said, “you learned me” :-)
It’s an improtant point and one civilians often don’t get. The laws of war are there to prevent the descent into utter barbarity.
I have reached the point with U.S. soldiers in Irak where I now assume against all my inclination and training (in civilian life I’m a barrister and work as an investigating magistrate) that they are guilty until proven innocent.
Yeah I’d like them to come home alive well and unscathed. That’s my heart. My head tell me something different. My head tells me that the only way to get them out is to do what the Irakis are doing. All out total war absorb massive losses destroy all around you to make the placve ungovernorable and kill and kill and kill again because you’re an empire now and you can make your own reality … If you’re up against an empire particularly one as ruthless as the USA what the Irakis are doing is militarilyt the right thing to do. The effective thing to do because that is what it takes
raven @ 60
The Boer War was successfully suppressed by the British by removing the insurgents from their supllies…the farms and towns that provided their support. Large numbers of Boer women and children were placed in concentration camps and farms burnt. At some point the farmers (Boers) had to come “in” or watch their families and farms disappear.
Todays guerilla wars have additional URBAN components and can be supplied through larger globalized markets.
One more point, the Boers had no external financial or military support. Modern guerillas are ofter part of quasi-national religious or political movements.
eCAHNomics @ 77
Churchill was a reporter on this war…and was the first to expose the atrocities IIRC, this led to his movement into politics and law…and was one reason he was adamanent that principles like habeas corpus NEVER be violated.
raven @ 94
I thought that the United Nations has actually established that the United States is the legal occupying power (and hence responsible for security and legal activity in Iraq). Of course, this resolution is coming up for renewal in a a month or two.
Mark Danner’s opposition to the war was based on his conviction that the US would not be willing to implement very strict martial law along these lines for as long as it took to persuade any possible insurgents that such an effort would be inevitably doomed. And also his conviction that the American people would not be willing to support the decade-long nation-building exercise that would, optimistically, be required to create a stable state in Iraq.
Edward Luttwak in Harpers had other examples of uprisings successfully put down–the Warsaw uprising, Hama, the Romans in a series of uprisings. In his view, a democratic government would never be able to use sufficiently brutal means to suppress an uprising with broad support among the populace.
Of course, it was clear that this administration had no clue when it went in without sufficient force to even prevent wholesale looting of weapons caches.
It still astounds me. This is an excellent essay, but it’s not exactly filled with information that was not widely known before the invasion. And you know what, the military is to blame here as well. There should have been mass resignations over this plan of attack and occupation.
Not quite, cinnamonape they’ve determined that the US is the occupying power. They’ve applied a sort of ½ assed well now that they’re their legal figleaf to it. But it’s legally very dubious.
PS: I’m still waiting for LS to reply to my question of where you are going to get the six hundred thousand extra troops to perform the course of action that LS is advocating.
jayackroyd @ 176
I think this was one of the reasons the British empire fell after WWII. More people there started to realize what was required to keep the empire together, and they couldn’t support it.
markfromireland @ 178
Larry Johnson wrote a week or two ago that he thought it would take a couple of years to raise such an army, and a draft. I think he was being optimistic, given how much expense we’ve gone to and the army is still losing equipment faster than we can replace it.
just want to say thanks to all … what a good discussion
Ian – your posts are so great. Thanks for sharing them with us at FDL!
I was being
ironicsarcastic. LS was talking twaddle that a private one day out of basic training would recognise as twaddle.Support our troopslike hell treat them as cardboard cut outs to be moved around it’s not as if they’re people.Ian Welsh @ 165
But Point 1 was counteracted y removing all the anti-Salafist elements (the Baathists) from positions of power. It would have been like removing the Malay nationalists from all government positions and then telling the population to support the anti-Communist efforts.
2) In fact, the British had already brought the Malays into their transition government. This was pretty much done soon after the return to Malaya after the Japanese surrender. Surrendering foreign colonies to Independence was pretty much part-and-parcel of the Atlantic Treaty. While there was an an effort to consolidate business holdings in a neo-colonialist system the turn-over was inevitable.
Things went wrong for the Dutch in Indonesia because they tried to resist the turnover (surrepticiously using Marshall Plan moneys to fund their counter-insurgency there). They had pretty much defeated the Indonesian “Army” (they were corned in a remote part of Sumatra) when the US and Britain compelled them to negogitiate with the Indonesians or lose their Marshall Plan moneys.
jayackroyd @ 176
I believe that it was Petraeus himself that constantly cited the “classic military-to-counterinsurgent” force levels necessary to defeat an enemy.
The problem is that we hear almost nothing about any “additional training, force integration, and allowing the Iraqi military to establish and hold areas” that this surge strategy was initially justified as.
Everywhere it is US forces carrying the load. All the force increase is being used in direct conflict…not training Iraqis. There has, reportedly, been very little effort to integrate forces since the beginning of the surge…there were too many US casualties as force movements were signalled to insurgents by “moles” within the Iraqi forces. It’s even thought that US forces took friendly-fire from within the “integrated” units.
Areas that have been “turned-over” to Iraqi police and military are soon back in conflict and they require a return of US forces. Militias still largely control the political and economic life of Sadr City, and their strength has escalated in the areas around Basra.
Suddenly the “force-levels” now have to be assessed against both Shiite and Sunni indigenous militias, not just al Qaida.
Throw in the Turkish intervention into Kurdish areas of Iraq, and there is additional problems. How many Kurdish troops will be withdrawn from their roles in support of US forces in Baghdad to the North as this occurs?
markfromireland @ 166
The initial insurgency was not very active, and was primarily Sunni. The Shia were, as I understand it, not fond of the Sunnis and neither were the Kurds. So – despised minority doing a guerilla action.
There was a period at the beginning where I think a competent administration, with enough resources (ie. no one who would have ever been stupid enough to invade in the first place) had a window. Flood the country with money – make sure there’s no looting, hire Iraqis to rebuild, don’t disband the army, etc… and there was a decent chance.
But, as you say, condition 2 is also necessary “we’re going to leave.”
I dunno, the problem with Iraq has always really been “anyone stupid enough to do it, is too stupid to do it competently”. But I think there was a window in the first year where doing the right things could have cut off main growth in the insurgency.
Of course, there’s still the problem that US troops are, shall we say, overly trigger-happy?
Yers and no as to point 1 cinnamonape. No arguments whatsoever as to point 2.
Point 1 though your analysis is fair enough but a bit off-kilter. Leaving aside the distinction between al salafahiyia al ilmiya and al salafahiyia al jihadiyah (because at the margins which is where we’re tlaking about it’s not that important) for a moment. I think you don’t understand the nature of the ba’ath. Yes they were secularists and still are but they weren’t by any stretch of the imagination sunni dominated – and again way too much is made of that distinction.
The various “salafist” fighters are very much a minority. Who you’re up against is the former army which, for the record, was overwhelmingly shia.
markfromireland @ 182
I travel on a military base as part of my job, and see these folks every day. It’s heartbreaking to think that they’ll be back there in a few months. I’ve seen a few units that have been shipped out already.
Ah, yes, protect the oilfields and they’ll come around, he said. Unfortunately, they’re not doing much good for the Iraqis right now. It’s hard to miss something you don’t have. Point taken.
You’re right, I don’t have much use for that sort of conversation. Those kids (they’re kids to me) would be better supported if they were back home, or at least involved in a war that was necessary. It’s also hard to blame the Iraqis for this situation. For a long time they were kept together by a brutal central government. Yugoslavia didn’t do so well under similar circumstances.
shootthatarrow>>> @ 164 speaks for me.
As does markfromireland @ 172 (whose reports based on firsthand experience in Iraq are absolutely invaluable to us, with our media acting almost exclusively as the Green Zone government’s public relations team).
Thanks for your comprehensive, important and timely post, Ian. [No need to be so coolly dispassionate about our horrific war crimes, though - this American will not flinch from your Canadian truth-telling; just as I really appreciate hearing the truth from markfromireland’s eyewitness perspective.] I hope a few more people started to pierce through the propaganda of the latest “civil war” cover story that’s hiding the truth about the Iraqis’ efforts to throw us out of their country against overwhelming odds.
I think it’s important [so thanks applepie @ 116 and james @ 118, et al] anytime we start to intellectually analyze the potential of success, and the pros and cons, of strategies such as “Total War” – especially when it’s essentially optional war in an attempt to steal natural resources to try to hang on to an unsustainable way of life – that we simultaneously state and internalize that we are speaking about unbelievably inhumane, completely depraved, criminal, brutal and vicious behavior, or as markfromireland puts it well: “utter barbarity.”
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/060907A.shtml
http://www.tomdispatch.com/pos…..ose_bases_
http://www.countercurrents.org/pilger080607.htm
Ian that is simply not correct the initial resistance was in the south. Not in the central governorates in the south. There were pinprick attacks in Salah Al Din and Al Anbar it was the south that gave grief at the start.
PS: it’s not an insurgency :-)
markfromireland @ 190
Well, it’s been a while, but my recollection is that those attacks weren’t all that significant and that the insurgency took off when the Sunnis got into it in a big way (and then, a while later, when they poked Sadr, the first main Shia uprising occured). I could, of course, be wrong on that, I’m going from memory. But that is my recollection from the time.
You are, of course, correct that insurgency isn’t the right term. Sloppy of me. The correct term for those actually fighting Americans (as opposed to butchering other Iraqis) is “resistance”.
Yeah none of the attacks were militarily significant is the point in fact. It was the massive retaliation and the use of collective punshments coupled with how the troops behaved in Baghdad that kicked the whole thing off.
Ian Welsh @ 191
It’s a loaded word with all sorts of unpleasant connotations. We don’t encounter it here very much.
I hear you cujo – they’re kids to me too. And unlike LS I have had to go and explain to a mother and her child that daddy would not be coming home and that as his unit commander I was the one who put him in that situation. I have absolutely no time whatsoever for people and I include other soldiers in this who just casually talk about things like that.
My son is a soldier and serves in a very dangerous part of the world. He’s back now. But we had a rule while he was first in Afghanistan and then in Irak. NOBODY telephoned us after 21:00 hours and nobody turned up to visit after 21:00 hours either because that’s when the regimental welfare officer arrives. I’ve had it from both sides so to speak. It’s not easy.
PS: Whether people like it or not resistance is the appropriate term :-) I think why Americans don’t like it is because it means they’re not the good guys. Well they’re not the good guys in Irak. There are no good guys when a society is violently collapsed everyone gets a lot of innocent blood on their hands. But the worst offenders are the people who deliberately and cynically did the collapsing and that I’m sorry to say is your country – the United States of America.
Cujo359 @ 179
An article in Foreign Affairs said that the US currently faces a choice–Rome or Great Britain. Decline and fall, or give up the hegemonic enterprise.
Cujo359 @ 193
But we should. Only by describing with precision what is actually occurring, can we debate the problem as it is, rather than futilely discussing a mythical scenario we prefer to believe. The Iraqi resistance to the American occupation is the cause of 90% of the violence in Iraq, per the American Department of Defense, as noted above. Yet all that our politicians will dare mention in public is the 10-20% of the violence that is caused (alongside the resistance to our occupation) by what’s termed the Iraqi “civil war” and related criminal gang infighting. That’s an approach to public debate about Iraq that’s a/k/a: How not to solve a problem.
jayackroyd @ 195
Please let’s have a rational nation-wide conversation about what empire actually means and who exactly we are enriching and empowering… I’m an optimist, I think if the American people had choices put tp them in explicit terms, they would choose democracy everytime. Empire wasn’t even possible until the Supreme Court ruled that corporations had the same rights as individuals, but not the same responsibilities. This is why re-instating the draft is so important… we never would have gone to Iraq if every teenage in America was subjected to going and possibly dying. Anyway that’s my two-cents……
Dee Loralei @ 196
I wish we could. Certainly no one asked me if I wanted an empire. The truth is we’re better off trying to make things better for people when we can, and avoiding the sort of thing we’re doing in Iraq, regardless of the motivation. All these neocons seem to think that since we were able to reconstruct Germany and Japan after WWII, we can do it in Iraq. There are many, many differences between those two situations.
As that Foreign Affairs article (apparently, I haven’t read it) is stating, Rome didn’t end well. As I mentioned in this article, the United Kingdom is a couple of other cautionary tales.
I’m not sure if the draft would have prevented this war or not. We had the draft before and during Vietnam, and it still dragged on. A draft tends to affect the poor and middle class more than the people who actually make the decisions in this country. Their kids didn’t serve in Vietnam, either.
Common Sense:
It was obvious to me from the saber-rattling outset this escalation and attack beyond the no fly zones of North and South Iraq was very destructive to the interest of the United States of America. In so many ways I cannot count. Your assesment of guerilla warfare in informative. You might take on the tribal structure of middle east society and the attack under which their cultures have suffered. Now that we are are part of that dark history we might try some version of a Marshall Plan as an apology for our stupidity.
It is productice to continue this line of reason and it does call for impeachment of Bush, Cheney and Runsfeld who ignored the warnings of CENTCOM in 2002. The inanity of their actions is unprecedented and calls for impeachment.
‘the laws of war are designed to prevent utter barbarism’? and war isn’t utter barbarism?
peas!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 25
Agreed, OK Kid . . . . but in just the short time I’ve been dippin in this lake, he’s been consistent in his tediousness about most of everything. Yawn is what it gets from me anymore.
Sun Tsu, and Mao, oh wow. In one thread. Gilly would be proud.
Thanks so much for a great read, Ian.
Good stuff hoss, and thanks for the thread.
An OT follow-up from Sunday 10/6/07 WaPo on-line page one. Titled ‘MILITARY ENVISIONS LONGER STAY IN IRAQ’ by Thomas E. Ricks.
This article recaps recent days talk of “the Korean model” for American long-term presence in Iraq with the curtain of anonymity in full force. Speaking thus evidently seen as being the better way to avoid future accountability or need to clarify or retreat from. Profiles in courage in stated opinion/viewpoint with a name/rank given evidently seen as foolhardy or as a tactical flanks exposure risk.
The goal line is being moved/set out to Jan.2009 plainly enough. September will be lots of smoke and mirrors,more string-a-longs and useless WashDC dithering and non-spinal
posturing. The DC DEMS are proving themselves fully unable to put up any meaningful,stiff push-back or fight. Expect that to be the DC DEMS general order of battle from here on out.
Clearly the U.S. military is thinking and doing plan-outs for a long-term American stay in Iraq. Last November 2006 election’s results and turnouts plainly seen as being beside the point–a small speed-bump for American imperial intents and desires in Iraq. The U.S.military clearly gaming the system just as the Bush/Cheney regime does. The new guy coming in to replace Gen.Pace will very likely be looking for “ramp-up time” and plainly will game the Iraq left/right and up/down focus lines all he can to buy time. And more time.
The suggested undercurrent of this article then being American military troops will be in Iraq for decades to come with the number(here it is again) leveling around 50,000 troops.
The money quote goes to this expressed view in the sixth paragraph from the top–
‘Also,officials think any Iraqi government will prefer to keep a small U.S.combat force to deter foreign intervention.’
Questions—??
Does this mean the Americans who are in Iraq are not a foreign intervention?
Does this mean that any Iraq government that prefers all Americans leave/get out will find itself suddenly at risk of being branded as “a victim of undesireable foreign intervention?”
Do Americans in Iraq see themselves as not being a foreign force in Iraq?
That would be/is an odd and curious construction if so.
No 60yoh war it isn’t. It’s vile, it’s evil, peeople do bad and cruel things but it’s not utter barbarism. Utter barbarism is when you wage what Hobbes called “Bellum ominium contra omnes” – “The war of all against all.”
The last such war in Europe was called the thirty years war.
I’ve seen it twice now once in Lebanon, the aftermath of it in Bosnia-Hercegovina, and now for the second time in Irak.
Hobbes described it thus:
“Whatsoever therefore is consequent to a time of Warre, where every man is Enemy to every man; the same is consequent to the time, wherein men live without other security, than what their own strength, and their own invention shall furnish them withall. In such condition, there is no place for Industry; because the fruit thereof is uncertain: and consequently no Culture of the Earth; no Navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by Sea; no commodious Building; no Instruments of moving, and removing such things as require much force; no Knowledge of the face of the Earth; no account of Time; no Arts; no Letters; no Society; and which is worst of all, continuall feare, and danger of violent death; And the life of man, solitary, poore, nasty, brutish, and short. … …
To this warre of every man against every man, this also is consequent; that nothing can be Unjust. The notions of Right and Wrong, Justice and Injustice have there no place. Where there is no common Power, there is no Law: where no Law, no Injustice. Force, and Fraud, are in warre, the two Cardinall vertues. Justice, and Injustice are none of the Faculties neither of the Body, nor Mind. If they were, they might be in a man that were alone in the world, as well as his Senses, and Passions. They are Qualities, that relate to men in Society, not in Solitude. It is consequent also to the same condition, that there be no Propriety, no Dominion, no Mine and Thine distinct; but onely that to be every mans, that he can get; and for so long, as he can keep it. … …”
Can I get a printed and bound copy of this post and teh comments please? All the good stuff happens after lights out here, I am just finishing an incredible conversation amongst incredible people, nearly ghods ye are.
The purpose of war varies with the particular war being fought, I believe.
This excellent primer above is an in depth look at how to fight a successful campaign against a vastly superior force.
The quote from Mao enlightened me as I first heard the sentiment expressed by Dr. Ernesto Guevarra who said; “guerrilla warriors swim through the population as fish through the water”. He also noted that he envied, most of all, the people of the United States, as, living as they do in the belly of the beast, they (we) have the most important job of all…….
This war we are currently engaged in is nothing more or less than an attempt to capture a dwindling resource, thus depriving our economic competitors from obtaining it. As a sidebar it also reaps huge profits for the military industrial complex. It is only possible to engage in such a war as we the people are become disinterested in the details of our governmental decisions and workings. When first suggested, by PNAC spokespersons Cheney, Wolfowitz and Perle, James Baker immediately quashed it and our allies expressed great outrage about the hubris of it. So times have changed greatly since then, and not in any sort of good way at all.
Ian-Excellent post. It lacks conclusions, like what to do about Iraq. Your comment states you see Iraq as lost. I assume you favor immediate withdrawal of American troops. I disagree with you about Afghanistan. I see that as lost as well.
I wonder if your analysis of guerilla warfare can be adapted to American politics. Being non-violent, I do not suggest armed attack anyplace. I wonder if we can’t do something more meaningful than writing blogs or comments-boycotts, strikes, things like that.
Lots of food for thought.
Ian – This is a great piece! Lucid and insightful! In a sense, the way of the guerilla, imvho, is the ultimate implementation of Liddell-Hart’s Strategy of the Indirect Approach.
When I was in the Army, we had a MOUT site (military operations in urban terrain) that was patterned after a ‘typical’ european town layout – densely packed buildings, narrow streets and dominant observation of the land around it.
Over the course of two years, and two different units, we would take turns attacking and defending against each other. The Company Commanders and Platoon Leaders would make bets on outcomes, and after it was over we’d have a ‘prop blast’ (ritualized drinking from an artillery shell casing.)
In those two years – the attackers Never won.
We tried everything. A buddy of mine had a plan to stage a diversion, and blaze in with a Ch-47 attack to the ‘off side’ – in the middle of the night, of course – but the defense was prepared in depth and the diversion was easily stopped (often the ‘defense’ would leave an ‘outlying’ building approachable – wait until the attackers filled it – and then ‘rubble’ it with pre-placed charges, an easy trap to set.) The helicopter was ruled ’shot down.’ Attack failed.
I tunneled into the place (in the middle of the night, again) with my platoon and got nearly everyone in – but once the shooting started, we got isolated and taken out in detail.
Commonly, an ‘interior’ defense was to ’stake-in’ a concertina wire ‘belt’ around the buildings at the street level. This kept everyone – friend and foe – ‘off the walls’ and in the middle of the street – right in pre-set fields of fire. And, of course, there were always buildings, even in the interior, that were set-up as open invitations (no razor wire) to seek cover and get rubbled in.
So, if you control the town AND have the support of the populace – it’s impregnable, short of the ruthless, ruthless strategy.
For a great read, on point with this article, I recommend McDonough’s “Platoon Leader” -
http://www.amazon.com/Platoon-…..amp;sr=8-1
McDonough is charged with protecting a vietnamese hamlet and occupies a patrol base just outside the town. He patrols aggressively, keeps up good relations with the village headman and doesn’t allow any interference with the locals by his guys. The VC keep getting ambushed by the patrols before they can concentrate for an attack on the patrol base, despite some small successes.
The VC resort to a war crime, killing and mutilating a much loved village woman who lived outside the village, in an attempt to pry the villagers away from the Americans. The headman survives multiple attempts on his life, being wounded multiple times, but he stands unwavering with McDonough.
Finally, rather than continue fighting a costly fight with the Americans, the VC bring in the NVA, by-pass McDonough’s position, and destroy the entire town.
Ian, a great post. Hopefully you’ll read this the next day.
Rick’s front page Washington Post article is a mass of contradictions; like the haze from drinking to much moonshine. Iraqis will stop resisting an alien Christian occupation. American troops can draw down to a token force.
The Pentagon follows the first rule of the neo-cons; lie to the American people. Corporate media parrots the Pentagon propaganda. The US troop numbers in Iraq are always increasing. Big Oil cannot give up all that petroleum in the ground. The Military Industrial Complex needs to keep the money flowing. The Israeli lobby is pushing to keep the forward bases occupied in Iraq.
The USA is fighting a Forever War; until global warming, economic collapse or a political revolution ends America’s colonial adventure on the other side of the world.
Milan River @ 30
Air in his water? (puzzled)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 83
I think supporting the Iraqis who are fighting to get the occupying armies out is a noble sentiment. Unfortunately, in order to get us out, they will have to kill relatives and friends of many of the people posting here. It should not surprise you that you will be the target of anger by those who have a loved one at risk. I agree with you – U.S. troops should not be there, and we should all work to bring them home NOW. What a horrible situation!
Ed Kunin @ 205
I wanted people to draw their own conclusions from principles. I think Afghanistan is lost, but that’s based on what I think NATO will and won’t do. Based on theoretical capabilities and the current preferences of the population (most of them don’t much like the Taliban) it is theoretically winnable. That’s what makes Afghanistan so sad.