While President Bush was in Germany undermining a European plan for mandatory reductions in greenhouse gases, Democrats were meeting with automakers seeking to strip states like California of the authority to impose carbon emission reduction standards on autos sold in their states. And the auto moguls were even more interested in weakening proposed increases in mandatory gasoline mileage standards for autos, light trucks and SUVs. From Wednesday’s NYT:
The chief executives of General Motors, Ford and Chrysler had lunch with Senate Democrats on Wednesday, less than a week before the Democratic leaders hope to bring a sprawling energy bill to the Senate floor.
The executives argued that the bill’s proposal to increase mileage requirements for cars and light trucks would be impossible to meet and would gravely damage the automobile industry.
It would increase the average mileage requirement for passenger cars to 35 miles a gallon by 2020, up from 27.5 miles a gallon now, and would apply to light trucks and sport utility vehicles as well.
But leading House and Senate Democrats from Michigan are pushing a softer approach, and they have a good chance of getting some of what they want.
Senators Carl Levin and Debbie Stabenow, both of Michigan, are drafting a bill that would raise mileage requirements but would be more lenient for light trucks and would give car companies the possibility of an escape hatch by demonstrating that the rules would be too costly to meet.
The auto executives have fought for years to strip California of the right to set its own, more stringent auto emission standards, but the large California Congressional delegation and the State’s governors of both parties have beaten back attempts to impose federal preemption. Because the Bush/Cheney regime has thwarted attempts to improve mileage and emission standards, except when forced by lawsuits, other states are now proposing to follow California’s lead. This week, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi made clear she would oppose the industry/Administration’s preemption attempts. With strong backing from Governor Schwartzenegger, California proposes to set auto emission standards aimed at greenhouse gases, not merely pollutants associated with smog.
Democratic leaders and even some Republicans have been promising to tackle global warming and reduce reliance on “foreign oil.” They tell the American people these are matters affecting our national security, and they are right. But that’s been true for decades, and yet there is still no serious effort to face the challenges and convince the public to make the necessary sacrifices.
It’s been 30 years since the first Middle East oil embargo doubled oil prices, and the second embargo following Iran’s seizure of US hostages quadrupled them again in the late 1970s. Since then, America has fought wars in the Gulf over oil; we’ve maintained large armies in the Middle East and a huge navy off its coasts. It is a very expensive energy policy whose real costs are not reflected at the pump, even when prices go over $3.00 a gallon.
Given this connection, it is ludicrous and dangerous to tell the American people we are becoming safer, as Hillary Clinton claims. Our increasingly belligerent military presence abroad has become the principal recruiting tool for people who think they’re justified in flying planes into our buildings. When we invade and occupy their countries against their will, or bomb their cities, we create opponents willing to blow up our soldiers with IEDs. Now we’re hearing that we may occupy a resentful Iraq for the next 50 years, and it’s not because they want us there or anyone thinks Prime Minister al Maliki or Moktada al Sadr are swell democrats or because any thinking person believes that propping up a Shia coalition in Iraq is the best way to keep the Shia theocracy in Iran in check.
No, whatever excuses we use to fool ourselves, we’re there primarily because the Bush/Cheney regime and those who think they’re the real grownups believe that we have no choice but to do this as long as our economy runs on oil. These are the same grownups who think we don’t have any economic choice but to accept, or at most deal slowly, with the unproven risks of global climate change, and they have plenty of shills and followers who believe this. In their grownup world, having 100 or more American soldiers killed every month in the Middle East is the only realistic energy policy we have. The thousands of local deaths simply don’t matter.
The reason they believe this is because they think that we — you and I — will not accept higher energy prices, or smaller cars, or give up our SUVs. They think we won’t pay a stiff tax to discourage gasoline consumption and support alternatives, or a tax on carbon emissions — on coal — to discourage emissions that cause climate change, or a cap and trade program to allocate capital to more efficient alternatives. They think conservation is just Jimmy Carter silliness, while better fuel efficiency would disrupt business as usual and isn’t nearly enough anyway. And they think America is not willing or able to build a transportation system that doesn’t require we behave as a militaristic empire.
And the worst thing about this? Too many of the people running for President in either party probably share those beliefs. I’ve watched the campaigns and debates, and there are some decent folks running, but frankly, none of these people seems to have much faith in us. They may talk about “energy independence” or the equivalent of Apollo projects to develop alternatives, but none of them is really telling us what needs to be done or asking for sacrifices or dramatic changes that would affect our lives. They don’t believe you and I will elect them if they advocate that, and our media keep telling us that’s true. Are they right?
I hope they’re all wrong. I keep thinking that when America was really concerned about its security during WWII, American industries stopped building cars and appliances for consumers and built thousands of tanks, trucks, planes and ships; and when we were done with the War, industry switched back. Those were gargantuan industrial transitions, but America did them and did them quickly.
You’d think we could build a hybrid car that gets 100 mpg and doesn’t require 100 KIA every month. And if the industry required that we remove the burden of paying for health plans in the price of every car, and solved universal health care some other way, well, I’ll bet we could do that too. I think this country would surprise these wannabe Presidents; Americans are ready to be challenged. All they need is the right leadership.
Photo of best selling Ford Explorer, from Wikipedia.
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so, do we get to stop the silly zed stuff?
but the oil revenue from Iraq was going to pay for this splendid little war and we would have gas that was too cheap to meter at the pump, right?
Isn’t some of this what our favorite dartboard, Friedman, pushes for?
Good morning, everyone. What’s for breakfast?
Scarecrow @ 4
Didn’t you read the post – evidently, OIL
Cheap oil – too cheap to meter – all from the chimp’s splendid little war in Iraq
Good Morning Scarecrow!
Scarecrow @ 4
Cheerios!
If Fitzy is a runaway prosecutor…is
Cheney a runaway VEEP?
charlie tuna @ 6
Yeah, “too cheap to meter” was the motto for the nukes — I think GE dreamed it up. That’s how we got Ronald Reagan.
Elliott @ 8
How did you know? Blueberries on top.
Cheerios and whole wheat toast, bird-safe organic coffee with milk, fresh squeezed orange juice, and a heaping plate full of snark.
Good morning, pups…skritches and tummy-rubs all around…
but, forgive me:
Gawd for-fucking-bid that ANY Corporation should have to ’sacrifice’ anything in the name of the (to date) OVER 3500 US soldiers killed for OIL in Iraq (NB: i don’t give a fuck about mercs, living or dead)…
this news comports perfectly with the unstated but most impingent responsibilities USer legislators–Dims and Pukes alike–owe to their corpoRat masters…
.
Well, let’s see. We are retired and on a fixed income. We just got slapped with a $13,000 annual health insurance fee we can’t pay. Gas on the northern California coast is $3.55 per gallon. Yeah, I’m in a good mood this morning.
Organic flax and pumpkin seed cereal with an organic banana, fair trade certified organic coffee, 16 oz glass of water with liquid vitamins, minerals, ammino acids.
well, to cut the pols some slack… we didn’t react so well when jimmy carter tried to tell us we had to change our ways. drive at 55mph? that didn’t go over so well.
‘course that doesn’t excuse pols who refuse to lead… or worse, block the efforts of others.
This is a great article! There needs to be a lot more talk and thinking about energy in this country.
This is the same old pernicious bullshit that got us into the pickle we are in. Because guess what an SUV is? A light truck. And that is how they came to be in the first place. Back in the 70s, when the 1st mileage standards were written for cars (which is why you don’t see anymore 12 mpg Cadillacs or Lincoln sedans anymore) they made an exemption–with good intentions back then–for light trucks. Farmers, carpenters and the like needed them, or so the thinking went.
So the Big 3 figured out how to make the “light trucks” into fat-assed cars, hence the SUV. It took cheaper gas for them to really take off, but in the end it worked.
Levin should be ashamed of himself. And exemption for light trucks etc is more of the same old, same old.
I’ve always been a small car kinda guy. My first (and bestest most favorite ever) was a VW bug. Currently driving a (paid for) 92 Escort five-speed that gets over 30 mpg city driving.
OT but:
Happy Birthday Happy Birthday
Happy Happy Happy Birthday
Happy Birthday Happy Birthday
Happy Happy Happy Birthday
HA-ppy Birthday HA-ppy Birthday HA-ppy Birthday
To me!
And if you se any of these people of semi-fame today wish them Happy Birthday as well:
Bargoyle Bush
Joan Rivers
Boz Scaggs
Sonia Braga
Jerry Stiller
Nancy Sinatra
Kathy Baker
Julianna Margoulies
Keenan Ivory Wayans
Lindsay Davenport
Kim Clijsters
Kanye West
Maria Menounos
Scarecrow @ 11
Nope, honey-nut with a banana
sofistic @ 14
When California’s energy commission studied economic vulnerability back in the 1970s, one of the things we concluded was that the most important issue to solve wrt to an oil tax (or carbon tax) is what to do with the money. We concluded that because the tax on oil tended to be regressive — and hurt those on fixed incomes and/or livelihoods that depending on driving, we have to find a fair way to rebate part of the revenues back to those most impacted. The tax would have beneficial macro effects, but the micro effects had to be addressed. Prices dropped in real terms in the 1980s and all those studies just went up on the shelf.
Happy Birthday dakine!!!
Thanks for this excellent post.
The fact that we even debate increasing mpg standards all of 7.5 mpg over 12 years is ridiculous, and our Mich. senators should be told as much.
Next, Consumers Union hits the nail on the head when they talk of a strategic refinery reserve to go along with the oil reserve. Refining capacity is the immediate problem- the 800 lb. gorilla in the room nobody wants to address, but would bring immediate price relief at the pump.
It goes without saying we should accelerate our efforts into alternative fuels and conservation, but getting some US owned refineries on line post haste would slow down the price gouging that’s going on today.
Scarecrow @ 11
Why it’s the only way to start the day!
(except maybe having something to put maple syrup on)
Happy b-day dakine01!
Millineryman @ 15
I’m going to assume all that is in a bowl of Cheerios. I don’t want to hear the truth.
egregious @ 21
Even when times are at their suckiest, I always look on my b’day is a good day. ;})
Morning Scarecrow et al.
I get to meet S.O.S. finally for lunch today—going light on the breakfast.
don’t de-fang strong legislation! it’s what we need…
dakine01 @ 18
HAPPY BIRTHDAY dakini!
“It is a very expensive energy policy whose real costs are not reflected at the pump, even when prices go over $3.00 a gallon.”
True. And the higher price isn’t going to the government, which is paying at least the military part of the externalities. It just gets sucked up by Big Oil and oil-producing nations. A gas tax at least helps match the cost with the payer.
Another serious risk facing us is that some nations are going to start pricing oil in Euros, or some basket of currencies. Then the horrid mis-management of the economy by the Bushies will come home to roost. As the dollar declines against the Euro or the basket, which it certainly will, the price of oil will go up for us and not for Europe, or nations with currencies in the basket. Our economy will be weakened with no effort on the part of the sellers. Iran has threatened to do this already.
But note: this will not affect the rich, whose assets are no longer tied to the US economy. By virtue of international investments, they will suck on our economy like a wasp larva on a caterpillar until it is a husk.
Who are the Dem’s who are sucking up to the big 3 now. We should pull together a list and start pressuring them. I know the folks from MI are in a bind on this but frankly, even they should not by the “not technically feasible” crap Detroit issues every time they are pushed. If they spent more energy on engineering and less on obstruction we would have safer cars that got well over 50 mpg by now. The irony is that not meeting this challenge will be the most likely cause of their demise.
They could make an SUV that got 100 MPG, but that would require their CEOs and other top officers to slash their perks and profit-takings by 90%. And they would much rather maintain their perks than preserve their companies — after all, THEIR platinum parachutes are safe.
My first NEW car was a 1977 Honda Civic Hatchback that got well over 30 mpgs. It wa a teeny tiny car, but I loved it.
Before that I had a series of 2nd hand VW bugs and Saab hatchbacks (3 gears on the steering column!)
What’s Detroit going to give us next, a car that runs exclusively and directly on the blood of American soldiers?
I mean, gasoline/oil is finite, but there’ll always be American soldiers, right?
(/sarcasm)
You know what would turn around American auto makers and get them to drill down even tighter on MPG?
Universal healthcare.
As long as automakers have to pay more than 25% the cost of a vehicle in healthcare benefits, they are going to push back hard on MPG demands because they can’t afford it. Faced with double-digit increases in healthcare expenses for workers year after year during this administration, they simply cannot make progress. GM alone lost tens of billions last year; they can’t stay in business doing that, nor can they fund the R&D necessary to make high MPG vehicles that the public demands; they are in a bind.
This is not a popular opinion or position, but it’s the reason why Chrysler ultimately got sold off; it’s damned hard to make a profit in the auto business if the competition has an automatic 25 to 30% advantage subsidized by the government. Nor is the auto business the only industry so affected in this country; countless small-medium-large businesses hang by a thread because of healthcare as it is currently structured in this country.
Perhaps the question isn’t merely whether we would be willing to make greater sacrifices in regards to energy consumption, but in regards to healthcare. Isn’t a threat to our national security if we continue to lose our manufacturing capacity because we have such a crappy methodology for healthcare delivery financing?
Selise, Scarecrow and I had a long talk about this last weekend—about the nation’s will and the first Apollo project. That was when we had an executive branch of government that believed in governing, not in pillaging.
During the DNC in 2004 the Apollo Alliance was doing workshops on how we need (and they are working on) a 10 year plan to make us energy independent. The excuse that Detroit et al keep giving is how changing over would cost jobs and kill the economy. The AA anticipates it would create 3 million jobs. If the citizens of the US had the will to do it, we certainly have the talent. Scarecrow’s point about the major industries re-tooling for WW II illustrates that.
This whole issue makes me crazy. It’s as if the government was trying to sell us on eating cheeseburgers, fries and super premium ice cream as the way to lose weight.
dakine01 — Happy Birthday; you’re the most famous person on that list.
Also, honey nut is cheating, but just today, we’ll let is slide.
Phoenix Woman — don’t know why you’re so cynical about a group of CEOs that have essentially missed the biggest industrial opportunity in a century while running their companies into the ground and destroying thousands of jobs. Why shouldn’t they be rewarded?
The thing that is so sad about all of this is that it is possible to produce efficient cars, and to produce them at an affordable price. If there were only the political will. I suppose it will take a massive Great Depression to wake people up.
I just got back from Europe, where I rented a car. It was a small Volvo D50, a hatchback with a diesel motor. Diesel is 1.14 Euro per liter (about $6 a gallon), compared with 1.45 Euro per liter for gasoline (about $8 per gallon).
The car got 41 mpg. Low sulfur diesel is becoming available for .1Euro more.
masaccio @ 30
I laugh now but I cried the first time it cost me $3.00 for a tank of gas in my old bug back in the seventies. It was such a rip-off! Of course this was back when gas was usually .25 or .26 cents a gallon and if you knew where there were multiple stations on opposite corners, ya could find gas wars where it would go down to .15 or .16 per.
Of course, I also remember buying cigarettes for .22 per pack.
Many Happy returns Dakine
I have an old Subaru Forrester that does Ok Been looking at the Prius which starts at 22K. I guess Ill nurse my old car along for a while longer.
I bet Toyota, Nissan and Honda are licking their chops. I guess no one has told the Michigan congressional members that the Asian imports are gaining market share at a record pace because they are producing vehicles with higher fuel efficency.
I thought Democrats fought for the workers and not big business. By allowing the US Auto manufactures to continue the status quo will eguate to more lost manufacturing jobs.
Speaking of reasons to be cheerful.
NYC’s Mayor Bloomberg is planning to institute “Congestion Pricing” in lower Manhattan, where the traffic and the air quality is abysmal.
It will cost $8 for every car and $21 for every truck that travels below 86th street. The revenue will be put back into the public transit system, which desperately needs to be upgraded and expanded.
Here is the link to a NY Times article — really worth reading.
Woodhall Hollow @ 33
yep.
my ‘85 accord got about 35 mpg. kept that car 17 years and then bought a ‘02 civic of about the same size. it gets about 35 mpg. and i hope it also lasts 17 years.
we need to find a Moore’s Law in transportation efficiency.
sofistic @ 14
Ow ow ow!
Scarecrow @ 37
Hey it least I didn’t move to frosted.
Besides, as a kid, cheerios was usually my dessert and reward for cleaning up my plate. Either that or a slice of bread, buttered and sugar sprinkled on top.
ABC had a story on evening news that sparked this post, but I can’t find the video. Here’s a companions story on line.
Phoenix Woman @ 32
And while I’ve taken the unpopular position on automakers here in the thread, I’ll take the equally unpopular (with CEO’s) position that ALL CEO’S MAKE TOO MUCH MONEY in the U.S.
There is no good reason for a CEO to earn a salary more than 10X any lowest level line worker in an organization. You want to reward a solid CEO’s performance? dole it out in stock, and based on three benchmarks: sales, customer satisfaction and employee satisfaction.
I wish there was a way to legislate this.
If we could afford an all electric vehicle, we would get one in a heartbeat, but we can’t, and probably the bulk of people are in the same situation.
Rayne @ 35
I agree with this 100%.
Nicely said, Scarecrow.
Outside of the gas milage standards, there are some really simple ideas of conserving that would go far in cutting down our oil use. How about a national campaign that has everyone checking their tires to make sure they’re pumped up right. That alone would save billions and cost virtually nothing. It just needs a President to stand up and talk about it, make it an issue.
Don’t count on Bush. Just talking about Global Warming gave Bush a stomach ache today.
Rayne @ 35
Ford’s actually pushing for national healthcare for the very reasons you mention. Too bad they didn’t start doing this in the 1990s, when Hillary’s national healthcare proposal was attacked and killed (with the “liberal” NYT leading the charge largely because Howell Raines hated and hates the Clintons for some unspecified reason).
IrishJim @ 42
where EVER did you get that idea?
IrishJim @ 42
You do know how many union jobs hang on the automakers here remaining in business, yes?
How many jobs would have to be cut to pay for the R&D to increase the MPG of vehicles to 100 MPG within 5 years, 10 years?
It’s a lot more complex than it seems on the face of it.
Oh, and let’s not forget legacy costs — all those millions of auto workers who’ve retired and are still drawing healthcare…how many of them do we cut off to pay for the R&D?
sofistic @ 49
My best friend’s father, who was an electrician, converted their family car from gasoline to electric in the 1970’s, and it didn’t cost much. The technology has been around for decades.
masaccio @ 39
Lessons everywhere, and then our President goes over there to lecture them on energy/warming policy.
Americans think that their freedom includes the right to drive whatever car they want, with whatever crappy gas milage it gets. It’s right up there with the First and Second Amendment.
RevDeb @ 36
i love this idea for a lot of reasons… one being that it seems like the perfect way to “buy off” the arms manufacturers that profit from war.
give them all nice big gov contracts if they will retool from weapons to alternative energy and related technologies (transportation efficiency for example) and manufacturing.
we defang a major industry that lobbies for wars AND get us off oil dependency AND prevent a climate crisis.
what’s stopping us?
Rayne @ 48
Rayne, you make some excellent points about Health Care and CEO salaries.
I saw Lee Iacocca on Charlie Rose recently. He was saying that the unions are going to have to be willing to “shoulder some of the burden” to keep the big 3 in biz. I almost threw my book at the TV. The unions should get serious and say OK–we will, but ONLY if upper management takes some serious pay cuts. And that it be written into the contract that the auto makers begin to serious lobby for universal health care.
That would be an interesting union negotiation.
Rayne @ 48
In Japan, the difference between the CEO and his/her lowest-paid employee is around 8x. In America, it’s around 400x to 500x.
And people wonder why Japan’s been kicking our butts for the past three decades?
The Democrats in Congress are working on that — hearings on CEO pay/perks are coming up, and where hearings appear, legislation usually follows.
The only driving we do is to the grocery store or to the doctor’s office. We order clothes online, and grow a small garden. We have two old cars. One gets 21mpg, and the other gets 26mpg. We drive on average about 5-miles per day. (one of the advantages of being retired, I guess; at least we control our own place and time to do things)
Scarecrow: The Prius ($22,175.00) seems to be the Best Overall Value of the Year with an EPA-estimated combined city/highway 55 miles per gallon and an Advanced Technology Partial Zero Emission Vehicle rating. And, you could be eligible for a $2,000 federal tax benefit. I’d love this car. I was thinking of trading in my 2003 Ford for it. If Ford can’t do the same, I say screw em.
Woodhall Hollow @ 43
Thanks for the link. I think congestion pricing makes sense. Most people don’t know it, but congestion pricing is already in place for electricity in over half the country (the congestion is on the transmission lines leading into urban areas)– state regulators obscure this through average retail rates, but it’s there in wholesale prices.
selise @ 58
Yupper!
Right now? Probably the lack of funding (which would be easily remedied by rolling back Bush’s 2003 tax cut giveaways to the rich).
Good morning, from L.A. Excellent post, Scarecrow.
So many hybrids are appearing- even mighty lux car Lexus has one. Ford’s got one that’s an SUV called the Escape, so SUV lovers can forgo the gas sucking Explorers & Expeditions.
I bought a Prius in December. Best car I’ve had, not just for mileage, but maintenance & roominess. Tall guys sitting in the back or front always remark how roomy it is. For those who thought a Prius might be gutless going up steep hills- I can breeze the Conejo Grade going toward Thousand Oaks doing 65-70 (Angelenos know how steep that is!)
Many, many Prius & other hybrids seen on the roads here in SoCal. American manufacturers could really turn those slumping sales figures around by offering more & more of them…
BTW, regular is now $3.43 @ the local Mobil station near my house.
ccmask @ 62
I’ve driven a Prius, and I liked it. Cool car.
Why does my party keep trying to offend this Democrat. I am here talking spcifically about:
Democrats were meeting with automakers to consider stripping states like California of the authority to impose carbon emission reduction standards on autos sold in their states. And they were even more interested in weakening proposed increases in mandatory gasoline mileage standards for autos, light trucks and SUVs.
Who’s really behind the Democratic Party?
I was pumping gas back during the second embargo. People were in a panic because they could only buy gas every other day. (Tragic, I know) I actually had someone call a cop to force me to sell gas to him on his off day.
The cop told me I had to pump this guy’s gas. I politely asked the cop if he, as a municipal police officer had the authority to over ride a federal mandate, and have me pump gas for someone who had to go to a wedding.
The look on the police officer’s face was priceless. Evidently, when this joker called the police, he told the dispatcher that I refused to pump his gas, and he had a family emergency, which was an out for people who really needed gas. I’m sure the police office didn’t like what I asked him, but his displeasure for being tricked by this joker made him more uncomfortable. He talked to the guy privately, and they both left without me pumping the gas.
This was before Raygun and his greedy, self-empowerment mantra took over a large portion of America’s heart and soul, which is now available at a big box retailer I suppose.
Rayne @ 48
legislate that 50% of the board of directors must be employees (representing all pay scales). i think germany and/or france do something like this?
our corporations are organized and run in the most anti-democratic ways. really virtually totalitarian in many cases. that’s bad, not just for it’s own sake, but for how it conditions us to accept the corporate forms of power distribution.
anything we could do to make our corporations more democratic institutions would be a good thing, imo.
There was an article in the local paper about someone who got a special dispensation in California to run a “Smart Car,” and other people just thought it was a toy car and weren’t interested.
Phoenix Woman @ 52
Unfortunately it’s taken a generational shift in management and a corporate near-death experience for Ford to make “bold moves“.
I really wish that more FirePups could spend some time in the Rust Belt, actually in the bowels of the automakers. It would really open your eyes.
I had an interview with a consulting firm that provided telecom-related services to GM; I reported to a building that was still called an R&D facility, even though the R&D was long gone. When I got there, I saw THOUSANDS of desks in a massive cube farm; the firm with which I interviewed pointed out the different sections, saying, This is our competitor X (another consulting firm) and this is our competitor Y (yet another consulting firm)…
I never saw or met a single employee of GM the entire time I was on site. The entire services portion of the corporation had been outsourced in order to reduce operating expenses. And the consulting firm with which I interviewed explained each of the firms on site were constantly watching each other, trying to get the competitive jump on pricing and services in order to retain their contract with GM.
Most people in the U.S. have absolutely no clue how much has already been cut from automakers in the last 20 years.
dakine01 @ 26
You must be young!
Scarecrow @ 63
I worked in Manhattan for most of Y2K and there was no way in hell that I would drive in that city. I took Amtrak in from Hartford on Mondays and home on Friday and used the subway most of the time (cabs usually to and from Penn Station). Way too many buses, trucks, and cabs double parked and blocking things…
Oklahoma kiddo @ 67
I should probably clarify that it was the automakers seeking these restrictions — most Dems are skeptical, but Michigan Dems tend to be more sympathetic, for understandable reasons.
the golden rule will never die. i think you know what i’m talkin about.
There’s an old cliche (and a song back in the 60s) that you’ve got to be cruel to be kind. The proposed legislation would force Detroit to face its competition, but they’re hooked on the “Big car, big profit” mentality. California’s fuel economy standards would do to the automakers what the drug laws did to Robert Downey; force them to confront their problems.
selise @ 58
That’s a fresh perspective, for me, on an idea I already like.
Scarecrow @ 25
Of course it was.
Happy Birthday dakine01! Celebrate and have fun.
Selise–that is an excellent point re boards. And another possible point of negotiation for unions who are being asked to make sacrifices to save jobs. Demand that a certain number of board seats be given to employees. They could be elected by unions.
May I have a word with you? Gore.
raven @ 72
Double nickle today…
When I lived in Manhattan I drove a Simca. I think it was a Swedish car. It was so tiny but parking in garages was costing me a small fortune. Anyway, one evening I met some friends down in Wall Street for a drink and had a couple too many. When I came out, I couldn’t find where I’d parked it. Took a cab home and never looked for it and never heard from anyone about it. I always wonder what happened to it. Probably someone put it in their purse. It was very small and there are some very big purses in the city :)
dakine01 @ 81
Younger than me but not that young! I lost interest at about 50. I guess gong in the Army on my 17th always made it sort of a mixed day anyway. Get on some of dakine and enjoy!
Woodhall Hollow @ 79
I have a problem with this, to an extent.
At the risk of pissing off some folks and getting flamed very badly: the very reason that unions have not been able to use leverage they already have is that the substantive majority of union folks have absolutely no f*cking clue how to run a business and make a profit.
None. I rub shoulders with and count among my dearest friends some of these union folks, but they are not business people. There’s a reason they didn’t go to business school.
I think it would be much better for unions to catch a clue and take a page from CalPers. Look at the power that CalPers has on not only individual corporations in which it is invested, but on the entire market; had the UAW, AFL-CIO and Teamsters pursued that model with retirement funds, they could have clamped down on the auto industry one helluva long time ago. And they would have done it through analysts managing their monies who actually are strong business people.
Judge Moonbox @ 76
Actually that was Nick Lowe in the mid-late seventies:
Chorus:
You’ve gotta be
Cruel to be kind in the right measure,
Cruel to be kind it’s a very good sign,
Cruel to be kind means that I love you,
Baby, you’ve gotta be cruel to be kind.
ccmask: heh, I had a Simca back in the 1970’s. Weird car, but fun. A French car, BTW.
the same folks who are behind the GOPukes…
Another reply supplied for you by the DSOA (Dept. of Short, Obvious Answers)…
Great post, scarecrow.
I think Obama actually had good proposal last year where the govt would assume some of the auto companies’ legacy costs if they agreed to improve fuel efficiency.
Having the Michigan senators write the fuel efficiency bill is insane at this point in time, we might as well let Exxon do it. Sounds like the greater needs of the country are once again being held hostage to the blue dogs and their wilingness to join with republicans to fuck us all.
I really never want to hear the word ‘moderate’ again.
Phoenix Woman @ 64
or maybe just take some of the money now going to pentagon budgets… and redirect it. same companies get the money – just for different projects.
do we really need the V-22 Osprey?
p.s. i want to use the tax cut roll backs for universal single payer health care. :-)
sofistic @ 86
Speaking of weird European cars, has anyone seen a Smart Car? They are all over Europe–as wide as a normal compact car, but really short–a 2 seater with a little storage space in the back. Great for city driving, can fit into a half a parking space. I have driven one in the UK–they are great!
Judge Moonbox @ 76
Who is it that is actually hooked on “big cars, big profit”?
Some assholes are actually demanding Hummers, can’t make enough of them, instead of buying smaller vehicles; who are these people sending the wrong message to GM?
Some assholes are actually demanding more profitability from their stock every quarter, and screaming at the boards of directors to sell the company if they can’t get the job done; who are these people?
They are not auto industry executives. I suspect that a few Democrats might take a closer look at their garage, their investments and then the mirror.
Chris @ 34
suggest you send this comment to Carl Levin and Debbie Stabenow, without the /sarcasm.
This country is so messed up.
Excellent article by Simon Rosenberg on the Bush legacy and the failure of the immigration bill.
1. Is the solution better mpg, or alternative fuels? What worries me about a big push for mpg is that, given population growth, in another, say, 5 years, we’ve got a BUNCH more high mpg cars, but their total consumption equals what we had 5 years back, with a less number of lower mpg cars. I always push for alternative fuels.
2. Ya’ll like to talk about “framing the debate”…well, ALL of Mr. Scarecow’s arguements are correct, but do they catch on? I like to talk about how “I’m sick and tired of the A-rabs sticking a knife to my neck. I want fuel independence so we can tell those folks to go to hell when we feel like it.”
That sounds harsh. But I bet you catch alot of support in putting it that way.
3. Oh, breakfast. I eat steak and eggs. I don’t do organic crap. But that’s just me.
Ghostman
sofistic @ 86
Oh, it was French? Everytime I brought it in to be serviced, the whole shop would come out scratching their heads asking me what it was. It was a very fun car. It was EXCELLENT on gas mileage. I’d put 5 bucks in and it would last forever. It was in the late 70’s also. I really wish I had it now. It was ugly though.
Speaking of weird European cars, has anyone seen a Smart Car? They are all over Europe–as wide as a normal compact car, but really short–a 2 seater with a little storage space in the back. Great for city driving, can fit into a half a parking space. I have driven one in the UK–they are great!
I saw them in Germany and loved the Smart cars. In fact, I purchased a scale model of it at the London airport.
It’s going to take a massive cultural change in American society:
It’s not what is more but what is sufficient.
Look at the slow food movement.
Look at the tiny house movement.
Put another shrimp on the barbie.
Life is for living, not for working.
Etc, etc…
Ghostman @ 95
A certain seated Senator in 1992 wrote a book that proposed a Marshall Plan for energy that would increase national security by reducing our reliance on oil.
Apparently the public didn’t care for the proposal then, although I suspect that if the author ran for office on that idea today, he’d be a shoe-in.
Bay State Librul @ 9
He couldn’t run away quickly enough to suit me.
jane hamsher @ 88
Good morning Ms. Hamsher. An article on what Obama (and Clinton) said about mileage standards. What Jane refers to:
No matter what Clinton, or Obama, or any other legislator proposes, none of them get us out of this infinite regress of consumption.
dakine01 @ 85
Early 80’s methinks. I was in college at that time and I remember it was popular then.
I have my grandmother’s ‘71 VW in the back yard rusting in peace, but with five kinds in the house and a trailer or two to pull, we drive a Suburban, but fortunately not very far. So our miles per gallon per person is probably better than most.
After extensive tinkering in the garage, I’ve come up with a vehicle that will run on “pure evil”, so if I can figure out a way to get Dick Cheney to stop moving, we can stick a well up his @$$ and transportation will be free at last!
OT — but an article in the Guardian worth reading: Secret CIA Prisons confirmed by Polish and Romanian Officials.
Not much news about that in the US media.
I would cheerfully pay $10 a gallon for gas if I thought everything above the market cost was going directly to alternative fuel research. As long as the prices keep going up incrementally most people won’t notice; it’s just going on their credit cards anyway.
Ghostman –
1. There is a feedback loop wrt to more efficiency = higher consumption, but that’s not necessarily bad. The cost of getting to higher efficiency also drives alternatives — and you can reenforce that with higher gasoline taxes (with equity-oriented rebates.
2. Don’t have to call me Mr. Scarecrow. Sir is fine.
3. Steak and eggs are organic. Rocks are inorganic. You eat mostly organic. Have some Cheerios. ;)
Scarecrow @ 101
I think that I’d like to see structured tax incentives that encourage purchasing retooling here in the U.S. versus overseas, too. Fewer incentives if purchased outside, more if purchased here.
I see a lot of overseas manufacturers coming to the U.S. to buy tooling of late, but U.S.-based firms are not. If we are going to keep both jobs and manufacturing capacity here, we have to provide the kickstart until other industries like alternative energy and nanotech increase their demand for tooling.
[Disclosure: my spouse is an executive in tooling industry; in 1992, his firm served U.S. firms exclusively, and now more than half of his business is overseas.]
Rayne, a comment for you at end of last thread.
So while the large corporations control public policy, Rome burns to the ground. Then large corporations have nothing to control and can’t make anymore money. Too late to change anything, the country is dead. Oops.
And, following along with what Ms. Rayne mentions about Gore, fuel issues ARE a matter of national security. One could really poke fun at all the R teamers and their refusal to do anything about our dependence on foreign oil.
You could call them un-american….cowards who won’t fight for America FIRST…and on and on and on. Lots and lots of emotional running room on this issue…and all to the detriment of the R team.
Ghostman
Rayne @ 108
I’m wondering if the “use American retooling” rule would violate our current trade agreements?
jane hamsher @ 88
mornin’ Jane. how are you feeling today? hope you are going to avoid this awful heat today. btw, we had a great time at the SJC hearing. peace
OT, but does anyone know why the Florida AG has not charged Foley yet??
Foley, a Florida Republican, resigned from Congress, came out as gay and entered a rehab facility after sexually explicit text messages he sent to male congressional pages were made public by former Human Rights Campaign employee Lane Hudson. Foley has not spoken publicly about the scandal, leading many to speculate that he is working on a book about the ordeal. The Florida Attorney General’s office and the FBI continue to consider whether to charge Foley with a crime.
An example of leadership on energy.
Gov. Rendell’s Energy Independence Strategy Good for Pa. Business, Says DCED Secretary
Also, the public needs some direction about consumption, and the choices they make.
It’s the consumption, stupid.
Scarecrow @ 66
and they are working on a plug in attachment for it.
Rayne @ 54
A start would be to take the money they are spending on lobbying congress and apply it to R&D. IMHO.
ccmask @ 97
We saw them all around Paris. They can park perpendicular to the curb and fit. Also saw one parked last summer when we were in Quebec. The problem so far with bringing them over is the low sulfur diesel engine, I think. The Glob car guy did a review of one about a year ago. Didn’t much like it, but then again almost all the cars he gets to review are the super plush lux cars so of course he wouldn’t like it.
I do think that they will be coming over. I also wonder how they would do in a crash test. They are great in Europe because most of the folks there drive modest cars. Here they are surrounded by SUV’s and Hummers . . . scary thought being in one of those in the midst of those who think they “own” the road. Then again there are folks who do drive minis.
Scarecrow @ 107
SIR Scarecrow (as I chuckle), ok, I see what you’re saying in #1. But I’m not sure if Americans will cotton to more taxes on gas…might be politically radioactive.
And, I’ll leave the rocks alone!
Ghostman
sofistic @ 116
I thought it was the stupid consumption.
Great post, scarecrow.
Scarecrow @ 101
Obama for Secretary of Treasury!
Elliott @ 8
Joe’s O’s for me.
Peterr: just a riff on Clinton’s campaign slogan, back in the day.
sofistic @ 124
I recognized it . . . just riffing on your riff.
Arnie @ 109
Thanks, Arnie. Makes it all the more clear that the American media is pointedly avoiding the truth if resources for tracking black sites and secret renditions are readily available outside U.S. media.
Scarecrow @ 112
You mean like NAFTA and CAFTA and GATT? Piss on ‘em; these “free trade” agreements are the biggest single reason why Michigan Senators are over a barrel, damned if they do and damned if they don’t, currently negotiating as their corporate AND individual constituents ask in regards to fuel economy.
These agreements should have been focused on FAIR TRADE, not free trade. American corporations (until the Bush years) were obligated to comply with pollution regulations and employment safety standards and now financial reporting standards; how do these companies compete against overseas corporations who have none of these barriers?
Remember the little food contamination problem with wheat gluten? with what kinds of standards were the Chinese distributor and farmers required to comply? None? is that why Chinese gluten was purchased — because it was cheaper due to lack of regulatory compliance?
We are going to have rethink the Buy American concept in light of the failure of free trade — not unlike the larger failure of conservatism.
Energy policy is fine, but it is just a band-aid on the cut and the cut is infected… with consumption.
Peterr @ 121
The “consumption” piece is the most important and most neglected, whether it’s electricity or gasoline. When supplies are tight, we’re on that part of the supply curve that is very steep; hence small changes in demand cause large changes in prices. Small reductions in electricity consumption during peak hours can reduce the wholesale cost of electricity from 15 cents/kwh to 10cents/kwh.
But consumers can’t get that effect because the retail rates they pay are averaged across time. Consumers don’t typically know that when natural gas prices are high (as they were after Katrina) the maringal cost of electricity varies from less than 2 cents to more than 30 cents per kwh, every day during the summer. But your rates stay flat, so you don’t see this. States control rates and most of them discourage smart consumption.
IrishJim @ 118
Do the legwork and see how much it costs to lobby versus develop fuel cell powered cars.
As of the year 2000, GM had already spent 2 BILLION on development of a fuel cell car, with virtually nothing to that date and since in the way of incentives from the government to offset this R&D. Lobbying is a drop in the bucket, and it obviously isn’t working if GM couldn’t get Bush to show up to talk before 2006 elections nor get any tax incentives on alternative energy development.
This is a great post Sir,
been too distracted trying to pay for that last tank of gas I bought to contribute to the dialog.
I think Rayne brings a lot of important points to the table. We need to get her into the House
will HGH get her kids growed up faster? ;)
Yer gonna LOVE this one
W probably won’t pardon Scoots because he’s worried about his legacy. He doesn’t want to be seen as disregarding the rule of law!!
We are just in deep doo-doo all the way around.
Foreign policy, environment, economic, health care, standards of living for the middle class and poor, racial tensions, unfair trade policies, etc.
Until we can educate the masses and help them to understand who’s driving this train, ain’t nuthin’ gonna change. But as long as operations like CNN are cravenly trying to compete with Fox News, you can fergit it.
The Publicans are primarily to blame, although they’ve certainly had their share of Democratic enablers.
Ugh.
For breakfast, disgust with a nice heaping helping of apathy.
(Anybody who has not seen The Corporation, please check it out. Also the book, “When Corporations Rule to World” by David Korten was the giant light bulb that put all this into perspective for me as to how all the above issues are interconnected due to the push for globalism. It sorta changed my life but sometimes I wish I hadn’t read it because I get so frustrated with people who can’t see the big picture because as long as they can’t they are susceptible to the manipulations of the msm and becoming unwitting corporate enablers as a result).
RevDeb @ 131
That logic means a pardon is certain.
Congress has to tell Detroit to get with the program on fuel effiency or else there will not be ANY good will in congress to bail out the big 3. That and any bailout will not extend to their foreign plants if the Big three try ussing Michigan’s pull in Congress we remind them that the Michigan delegation serves a large Muslim population who would love and end to the war which we could do only if we were not so dependent on oil!
completely OT… but HOLY COW!
via dkos diary…. this ABC news article about president bush’s stomach ache is posted with a picture of him drinking a beer yesterday. isn’t he supposed to be on the wagon?
look at the picture.. since when does ABC news publish pics like this? or i am reading too much into it?
….
note: lots of people have or have had problems with addictions, and i have nothing but sympathy… but, i am not keen on the possibility of a president with unaddressed problems are kept hidden. if that is indeed what’s going on.
….
now, back to previously scheduled policy wonk conversaton…
RevDeb: It would do horrible in a crash test. But, where I live there is absolutely no traffic so that wouldn’t matter to me. Unless, of course, I hit a deer or a cow.
Christy is feeling whimsical this morning. New post/thread.
Scarecrow @ 133
Hard to know where to begin . . .
Despite my cynicism and sarcasm this morning, I remain hopeful that American society will come around and see all the potential that lies right in front of them. There are so many opportunities for American economics if we would just get off this neo-classical economics bandwagon.
Elliott @ 130
Aw, shucks, Elliott, that’s kind of you. But these things take all the time they need for a bunch of reasons.
If you knew I was raising a future progressive President of the United States, you’d be happy for me to invest more time in his/her careful upbringing, yes? ;-)
Besides, I have to learn how to run for office. I’m fortunate to have been asked to be the IT person for a candidate who will announce in the next 6 months that they are running for state legislature; I hope that being a key part of the campaign will help me develop the chops I need to run for office in the future. The candidate I’ll be helping has had to wait for the right moment, too; they had to develop a core team of trusted helpmates and advisers, acquire a posse of folks who will be excellent advocates. Took not quite 3 years to get here, but now they’re ready to rock — and at the same time that the incumbent is term-limited.
I think I’m going to learn a LOT from this experience that will help me or the future POTUS in my household. And I hope to share a lot of that experience this next year with you folks.
RevDeb @ 138
I thought the scariest part of that article was the quote from another anonymous Republican warning that Bush’s failure to pardon Libby was testing his remaiing 28% — I read that as a veiled threat of impeachment.
Morning all! Fresh thread, a half a pot of coffee left here…
Woodhall Hollow @ 43
Link to NY Times article is not working.
New thread from Christy.
Rayne @ 126
i’d like to point out that NAFTA and so-called “free trade” in general are a disaster for workers in the other countries as well as in the usa. the only countries that seem to have benefitted are those who haven’t followed the “washington consensus” (see china, india).
i’m not in favor of “buy america” – i’m in favor of making purchases that support fair labor and good environmental policies for all.
Rayne –
If you knew I was raising a future progressive President of the United States, you’d be happy for me to invest more time in his/her careful upbringing, yes? ;-)
I have faith that’s exactly what you’re doing. We’re counting on you.
Raynhe @ 129
Excellent points. I think we should take the 3 Billion in subsidies for the Oil industry and give them to the Auto Industry for R&D and legacy healthcare costs. The oil companies do not need them with the 220 Billion dollar a year profits they are earning.
The R&D is the right approach. From my Business school days, in the long run R&D will always bring about much higher returns. I was of the opinion that any company that invests in pure R&D will get tax benefits from it.
RichyBassman @ 143
Try this link to NYT article on congestion pricing.
Ghostman @ 95
Or is the answer: 1) Put the real cost of CO2 emissions on the pump price including the cost of sequestering emitted CO2, 2) Put 50% of all highway funds into high efficiency public transportation including high speed rail. 3) Put a surtax on Airplane fuel reflecting the true cost of their C02 emissions and put the money into rail. 4) Promote telecommuting.
When Gas is $10/gallon watch how quickly Detroit comes up with a high mileage fleet, people move to mass transit and telecommuting, etc. When air flight costs 2-3X the current cost and there are good trains look at how quickly people start taking trains.
When gas costs
Happy Birthday dakine! Like you, I just love my birthday, I hope you have a most excellent day!
Scarecrow — you worked on energy policy in the ’70s?!? Kudos to you sir! And a most excellent post this morning.
I was a kid in the 70s, but was raised on Nova, Science News, and all manner of other forward thinking sources of information that projected alternative fuel sources sometime in the future. I kept reading and waiting over the years for fuel cell cars, electric cars, distributed energy systems that would replace the oil/coal centered grid system with all its lossy transmission lines. And absolutely nothing happened. Not in the mainstream anyway, and government officials of all stripes kept whistling past the graveyard.
I own one of the first Prius’ to roll off the line for the U.S. market. And while good arguments can be made in favor of other high mileage, non-hybrid alternatives, I felt that buying it would send Detroit a message. Yet, they still are not listening. Japan is eating Detroit’s lunch — do you hear THAT Levin and Stabenow? If the US car makers collapse, I will shed not one tear for all those execs in Detroit who drove their companies into the ground. But my heart will ache for the employees of the companies who will ultimately be left holding the bag.
It is high time to correct our disastrous energy policy, and Scarecrow your post is an excellent place to start…
is it just me or are others finding their comments are getting truncated. I know I can be long winded but…
[Mod: Your comments have not been cut.]
selise @ 145
Latin American countries, specifically Mexico, have suffered greatly; NAFTA is the reason we see so many illegal immigrants here.
I don’t personally adhere to “Buy America”; I’ve owned 5 cars in my life, 4 of them Japanese-makes. I buy what works for me. But why is that, that what works for me isn’t American? If we dealt effectively with all the underlying causes in that question, I’d probably being buying American, and our country would be much less exposed to the vagaries of globalization.
Late to the morning party here and thought I’d jump in after reading the post, then go back through and read what look at a glance to be great comments. Great post, and would like to see more posts and questions in the FDL style about this kind of thing. CHS talks gently and supportively to us about gardening and books and all sorts of other cool and fun topics, but I’m not sure that we’ve gone very far into what we drive and how we get around town, schlep our kids, etc.
The NYT article made me upset–the same old same old. What is it about Michigan? I guess the answer is union-obvious, but I’d be curious to hear what Michigan FDL superhero emptywheel says about it all. Levin seems like a great senator but this has been going on for years. I don’t know anything about Stabenow, but now what I know is a bummer.
My view is that the argument might be worth having if the US auto companies had a clue. Instead they’re losing money hand over fist and always seem to do everything wrong. They spend megamillions promoting/marketing the rugged “light truck”/SUV lifestyle as “America,” then they say Americans want these cars, you can’t deny them to them, and it would be horrible for the economy.
I always refer to my Prius in conversation, at all times, as “the car of the future”–the car of the future is parked in the driveway, but I’ll move it on to the street, etc. Half as much gas to go twice as far, fewer emissions–than the mid-90s semi-dirty hippie Volvo that my daughter drives now. Larry David had an early Prius in Curb Your Enthusiasm, where in one episode he got into giving a wave to other Prius drivers. If you tried to do that now in West LA your hand would stay in the air at all times. Honda just ended the Accord hybrid after selling only 25,000 in a year, the number of Priuses sold per month, and that number is still spiking upwards. The only problem with the car of the future is that there aren’t more choices.
The US auto business has in fact been devastated by the failure of congress (and Bush… and Clinton, with Levin’s help) to raise fuel standards. And it seems like they still don’t get it. The situation requires political leadership and courage, with compromise from the top and the future, rather than the bottom and the past.
And none of that even mentions the climate issues…
phred — I was fortunate to work as an attorney for the California Energy Commission, beginning in 1976. They did lots of good stuff to change the energy infrastructure of California, and all of their stuff is very relevant today. Many friends still there fighting the good fight.
Rayne @ 91
There’s some truth to that, but you also have to admit that SUVs weren’t created because consumers demanded a truck that looks like a car. They exist because automakers knew people would buy bigger vehicles and figured out a way to evade the mileage requirements by producing cars and calling them trucks. And consumer preferences don’t arise in a vacuum either; they’re partially responsible for that, too, unless one believes that dollars spent on marketing are wasted.
The points on healthcare are well taken, but I’m not terribly sympathetic to companies that have gutted their R&D departments over the past thirty years, violated the spirit of efficiency requirements because bigger vehicles have a higher profit margin, and are now hemorrhaging money and getting their lunch eaten by Japanese and Korean automakers, and “can’t afford” to do the research to do their part so we can stop global warming and have a sane energy policy.
We need a way to manage the transition in a way that will protect workers (who, as you know, are already getting screwed), not a futile attempt to maintain the status quo because they’ve already squandered their best opportunity to make that transition and now it’s hard.
zhiv — in between her occasional Saturday morning garden posts, CHS writes awesome coverage of constitutional/rule of law/surveillance issues, posts on the Justice Department, immigration, health care, mining regulations, executive accountability, congressional corruption, etc, etc, etc. Check out the list of topics on the far right.
zhiv @ 153
Among other highlights of Stabenow’s illustrious career was a vote IN FAVOR of the Military Commissions Act. Evidently she is a Dem weasel who squeaks and runs in circles if she thinks she won’t get re-elected if she doesn’t fall in line with the Rethug talking points.
So, EW, I know your Mom is in town and all, but should you happen to see this, any chance at all of MI Dems finding a progressive challenger to Stabenow? I think she was just re-elected in 2006, so there is time yet. But no time like the present to make suggestions :)
Scarecrow @ 154
I lived in Berkeley in 1976, come to think of it, I vaguely remember passing a scarecrow crossing Telegraph, must’ve been you!
Scarecrow @ 154
Very very cool. It is a pleasure to type to someone who has been involved in all of this since that time. Give you friends a hearty pat on the back from me!
I went into science because I hoped it would be useful to society in some way, but these days it seems like law might have been better :)
Bastards. Here’s how the auto industry can increase the gas mileage of EVERY vehicle they make 40% EASILY: convert the engines to partial steam engines.
That’s right, there is a nice article in last month’s Discover mag about an engineer who has found a very simple way to increase the mileage of any gas engine (probably work for diesels too) without any difficulty. He uses a closed pool of water and a heat exchanger. What he does is modify the normal 4-stroke engine to have 2 more strokes. After the normal exhaust stroke (#4) he injects a small blast of water into the cylinder. At this point, the cylinder/piston is at a scorching hot 1000 degrees of so. The water injected immediately flashes into steam, creating another power stroke. The 6th stroke is simply the piston pushing the steam out of the cylinder and into a heat exchanger. The water is cooled back into liquid and used again. It is a closed loop. There is no loss of power and automatically increases the fuel efficiency by 40%.
It is simple and should be REQUIRED by all automakers just to start. I’ll modify my Honda Civic Hybrid to operate this way as soon as the mod becomes more widely available. Go from my normal 47mpg to 60 mpg.
Now is NOT the time to cave to the automakers. Now is the time to hold their pathetic feet to the fire. What they want is to be beaten to death AGAIN by the Japanese who are cleaning their clocks…again. Same old same old. No innovation in the US – you have to look to the Japanese for the real trends and innovations. I’ll bet a testicle that the Japanese are the first to jump onto this steam engine mod.
selise @ 135
From my experience in Germany years ago, I’d say he was drinking apple juice. Here in the US, it’s a drink for kids; in Germany it is much more common as a non-alcoholic beverage for anyone.
Scarecrow @ 156
Or the next thread.
selise @ 16
Drive at 55 MPH???!!1!!? Sheeet, even the slow lane on Rt 128 is 65MPH (except rush hour, when it is 5MPH)
Morning pups! thanks for the tummy rub! Working from home today!
ccmask and others — the SmartCar is *very* safe in a crash. Here is an article from Canadian Driver and here is a video of a crash test.
Someone needs to tell the automakers that killing us is a privilege, not a right.
Is that conservative enough for you?
Peterr @ 161
but there’s bubbles! like on a head of beer. does that look like any german apple juice you know of?
still… i do hope you’re correct.
Kathryn in MA @ 162
woohoo! it’s a beautiful day. at least you can open a windo and enjoy the fresh air… and the ocassional dip in the lake :-)
hmmm… edit comment (which would be nice to use to correct my spelling) and quote comment have disappeared…. ‘prolly it’s just from work going on the background, but thought i’d mention it just in case it wasn’t expected…
selise—I still have both edit and quote. PC/IE here.
here’s the error msg is get:
I don’t want to burst anyone’s bubble, but the fact is, unless the gas being consumed contains enriched uranium, big cars and high gas mileage simply don’t go together, and never will. That’s basic physics.
Nor can one put the blame on automakers, at least not all of it, or even a particularly large fraction. The truth of the matter is that it is the consumer who drives these ‘bad’ decisions.
Look around you next time you’re on the street. I live in a college town in the midwest, and I can tell you that most of the vehicles I see next to me are a) large, and b) don’t get particularly good gas mileage. Now, the auto demographics may be better elsewhere, but this is a town that prides itself on being ‘progressive’. Earth Day can be a three-day affair for some folks. We have extensive green belts and walking/biking trails. There are also any number of cheap small cars that get good gas mileage. And yet, you don’t see very many of them on the road.
The truth is, support for the small energy efficient vehicle is very much like the support for the Iraq war circa 2004 – large but soft. Sure, talk a good game, but when it comes to putting down real money, making real sacrifices . . .
And that’s why you don’t see powerful democratic-controlled institutions taking on those evil automobile companies.
Redshift @ 155
I’m going to be a heretic here and tell you that you missed blaming the workers, too.
Yeah. As I said up thread, I rub shoulders with and count among them some dear friends.
And some of them are just as much to blame for what is going on, both in terms of their voting as Reagan Democrats for years, and for their performance as workers. Unions for a very long time prevented changes to the workplace of any kind without expensive and lengthy negotiations. Saturn evolved as a way to reduce legacy issues from this conflict, but it still competes with foreign suppliers that don’t have to absorb the full cost of healthcare.
Let’s also add that most of the autoworkers I know are for crap on managing their own health; one of my friends, now retired for 6 years from GM, has had TWO heart attacks in that period of time. Still f*cking smokes in spite of it. One of my other retired GM friends is about 150 pounds overweight, now facing knee replacements.
But it’s all Stabenow’s and Levin’s fault, isn’t it?
isn’t it nice when the idiot democrats have to show who pays them.
GM says they can’t continue without health care for their employees
but they fight instead to have the requirements for economy lessened. these are the same requirements that are making them lose their business to the people that will comply, or in most cases, that all ready have!
Now Carl and Debbie certainly have to be retarded, because they are going to cripple their own contributors, to allow them to be crushed by the competition, by their own request? Someone read this back to me so I can be as dumb as this sounds, please.
synonomous with stupidity here. this ought to be the poster child for political corruption and absolute idiocy. this is going to be a big story, because even I can understand how stupid it is. the people of their state ought to be very concerned about who represents them. because they will see how corrupt these turds are. giving money to the people that fired them, to be less competitive so that they can lose more money, more jobs…. as long as the congresspeople get paid of, it must be good for the people, hmm?
I’d have to agree with you, Rayne. I strongly suspect that most auto execs are no more morally suspect than the average man-in-the-street. The difference is, they have power, and the man-in-the-street doesn’t.
Which is another way to say I think the typical everyman would make decisions every bit as poor and self-serving if they had any actual authority.
Or in still other words, it’s not that power is necessarily bad, or that those who have it or seek it are bad, it’s the concentration of power that is bad, the lack of Galbraith’s “countervailing influences”.
note to Smart Cars : they’re already dying out. the thingies are cool for crowded metro areas and they are somewhat hip. they also have high safety standards. they are manufactured by Daimler (ex-DaimlerChrsyler, manufacturer of the Mercedes line), and cost so much you get a real car from japan for the money … you know, one that seats 4 and has a trunk where you don’t have to stash the 2 cases of mineral water on top of each other. there are rather huge quantities of them sitting in depositories cos they don’t get bought enough… i mean, what were they thinking ? a car for people without family, ok, but no friends (plural) either ? ^^
Just a note, and I’m sure that you didn’t mean it to come out potentially hurtful, oldtree — but we do have a few regular readers who have children with mental challenges who wince at the word “retarded.” Just something to keep in mind…thanks.
oldtree @ 172
oldtree — do your homework and check the donations both incumbents get.
Levin’s largest lifetime contributions come from lawyers and pro-Israel groups; Stabenow’s come from lawyers and pro-women’s groups.
Try talking with union and white collar folks at the auto companies. It is not as simplistic as you think it is. And I live here.
The people here are desperate for jobs; if we don’t get them, this state will lose more electoral votes as it loses its population. Those folks who’ve lost manufacturing jobs here are moving to red states like Florida, Arizona, Texas and Wyoming where their blue votes will count for naught. What do you think will stop the hemorrhaging of jobs within two years — keeping the folks who continue to stay on voting blue, while keeping the blue-collar blue voters here at home??
I’m really sick of everybody outside this state bashing the snot out of the situation here, when they know nothing about the facts on the ground, the history, and are contributing to their party’s potential losses by failing to think systemically instead of giving into knee-jerk reactions. This needs more than passing thought; try reading Chris Hedges’ work as well as the FDL Book Salon with Hedges this past week. Perhaps you’ll realize that there has been a systematic effort to put the screws to manufacturing workers across the U.S., with states like Michigan paying the heaviest toll.
ScentOfViolets @ 173
Power is illusory, ScentofViolets. The Big Three could NOT get Bush to pay them a visit before 2006 elections, only after. He’s given them the brush off regularly for 6 years.
That, in spite of the fact that Bush and his base make a hell of a lot of money off petroleum consumption.
Supply and demand.
If one company doesn’t build enough SUVs, people will spend money on the car manufacturers who do.
So, if one company decides to scrap their SUV divisions, then they lose out. And their competition gains from new consumers.
It requires a widespread industry decision. And this shouldn’t be imposed by the gov’t. It has to come from the consumers end to say ‘we dont need any more of these SUVs’..
..So, to kill SUV production, it’s up to the Collective Us. Laws / regulations will just piss people off.
Wow, terrific post. And exactly right. Thanks Scarecrow.
cancer_cures @ 178
These are arguments for mandatory standards, because there is an “externality” at work that biases the market outcome. Think of energy-efficient homes, with lots of insulation, insulated glazing, etc — these features costs money. Home builders competing mostly on higher quality might do these things and advertise that fact; but builders reaching for the entry-level market (first time buyers) will want to compete on costs and have an incentive to skimp on features that add up front costs, even though they pay for themselves in lifetime energy savings. Without the improvements, these homes cost everyone through increased costs for electricity and gas facilities, etc, not to mention Middle East wars.
This logic drove California to adopt mandatory standards for every new home and office building — everyone faces the extra costs, and the entire fleet of homes/offices becomes more energy efficient — thus cutting costs in the long run for everyone.
Analogous arguments apply to the need for mandatory efficiency standards for autos.
Scarecrow @ 156
Scarecrow–
Just to EPU for the record, I’d say I read 98% of the words CHS writes on FDL and I’m in awe of her. She’s not just amazing, but she and JH and others like yourself are doing really important work. I was rushed this morning and knew there was something wrong about that sentence as I was writing it, a vague idea in the back of my head that it could be taken in the wrong way, like she only did posts on gardens and birds and books. I was referring to the relaxing weekend morning cuppa posts that I very much enjoy, and thought that how we all get around might be a good topic. My bad, and believe me, no one has to tell me that CHS kicks ass.
zhiv — no problem. thanks for the explanation.
What part of
do they not understand?
Phoenix Woman @ 32
Carter & Co saved Chrysler, but should any Dem administration save a major auto company if they refuse to do the patriotic thing and build more fuel-efficient cars to help keep us from having to go to war all the time?
It’s simple really. They can build better more fuel efficient cars and it would buy them better protection during bad weather. No improvements and they get rained on.
It is, after all, a national security issue as we are reminded daily.
It really doesn’t make any sense to be handing cash to the oil industry. How many billions are they making (and will continue to make) in profits?
Instead put money into university and corporate research & competition to produce the next generation high efficiency, low cost low pollutant vehicles.
These engineering competitions are being done for robot controlled vehicles and for other things — why not for fuel efficiency and cost/mile efficiency?
There was an award for the first civilian space craft and it spurred an honest race.
Let’s have a competition to develop some better vehicles!
I really appreciate the way you’ve synthesized the parts into the big picture whole in this post, Scarecrow.
The Senate is voting on the cloture motion to proceed to their energy bill late Monday [the Senate shut down for the weekend Thursday evening after suspending until further notice the latest three-day “debate” on the Immigration Bill; that’s two weeks in a row without further movement or even rhetoric in the Senate toward ending our occupation of Iraq, following the Congressional capitulation vote that gave Bush a free hand with our money and the lives of our Armed Forces and the Iraqi people whose nation we occupy].
Some members of the British Army recognize empire-building in pursuit of Black Gold when they see it, while the media deliberately turns its head, as John Pilger points out well:
http://www.countercurrents.org/pilger080607.htm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/new…..email.html
http://medialens.org/
Tom Engelhardt also has a very sobering and comprehensive new article about the construction of our permanent future points of “access” in Iraq: giant city-state bases that Congress has steadily funded and our media has steadily ignored:
http://www.tomdispatch.com/pos…..ose_bases_
Consumer demand drives everything.
Yes, society can do things to change perceptions, but that’s an iffy proposition. Americans use 40% of all the gasoline in the world. Seriously; 25% of all oil, but we’re heavily skewed to gas for transportation – less diesel and other fuel. See: http://www.eia.doe.gov.
If you make it hurt (a steep gas tax, as noted above), people will change. Might not be happy, but they will change. For that matter, there are plenty of small 4-cylinder cars that get 35-40mpg today. Go hybrid and you’re talking, 50 mpg. Plug in hybrid ($10K cost adder today) and you’re in the 70-100 mpg range. I’m afraid we’ll have to make it painful, and have national leadership to boot, to get movement on this. That or peak oil (US proven reserves run out in about 2015) or a Middle East war/disruption could do it as well.
Carpenters and farmers? Can do rebates for them. BTW, I grew up on a farm and have occcasionally owned pickups since then. Even today, most farmers I know have two pickups. That big diesel Silverado/F-250 for serious hauling, but also small pickups for the everyday needs. I loved my pickup, but living in the city I only really used its hauling ability 8-10 times a year. There are far too many V-8 F150s that get driven to the suburban office job and maybe haul some mulch or plywood from Home Depot occasionally, haul the trailer/boat on vacation twice a year. Somehow, the rest of the world manages to make do with smaller vehicles. They still manage to take vacations, remodel their homes, and move large items from the store.
I just returned from Scotland, where I rented a Ford Mondeo station wagon and drove it for 9 days. For those of you unfamiliar with this car, it is a mid-size vehicle, seats 5 comfortably and carries a lot of luggage in the back. It was also powered by a 1.9 liter diesel engine, which was quiet, emitted little smoke, and had plenty of power. Bottom line – I averaged 50 mpg in mixed driving with none of the complexity of a hybrid car. My best mileage on the highway was 62 mpg. So, why can’t I buy one in the US? Why are car manufacturers here claiming that they can’t improve fuel economy? I can’t even bring one of these cars into the US if I buy it and drive it first in another country.
If 30% of US drivers switched to an efficient diesel car, we would eliminate the need to import ALL of the the oil that Saudi Arabia currently ships to us. The economic and political benefits are clear. It’s also clear that the oil companies are the big losers, as are the politicians who are in bed with them. We are being screwed folks, and at the same time we are being forced to add tons of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere and contribute to global warming. There is simply no excuse.
I know that someone is going to argue that diesel engines are not as clean as gas engines. And that is true. But think about it critically. If you burn half as much fuel, it really doesn’t matter if you burn it and emit 10% more pollution per gallon. You are still way ahead of the game because you are burning so much less fuel. And the technology to create clean burning diesel engines is improving all of the time.
There is a choice, and it’s available now. We must demand that our government make this choice available to us. To allow the status quo to continue is unconscionable.
U.S. automakers and the politicians they bribe are done. Reality always trumps stupidity, greed and the absolute lack of a meaningful business plan beyond union-busting.
Toyota announced the day before yesterday it will soon start production of a hybrid plugin which will get 125 miles per gallon.
Wave buh-bye….
Ford…no plans for a hybrid.
GM…the Volt gets half the Toyota’s mileage. GM quality….hah, yer kidding right.
Chrysler..no plans for a hybrid; just sold a chunk of the company for a fraction of what it was purchased for several years ago.
Yep…dat Ol’ Free Market Solution gonna kick some Murkkkan ass.
And all while Congress diddles around with ‘The Decider’ and his criminal clown posse.
I say this, ‘Impeach Abu G., then impeach ‘Shooter’, then impeach ‘Bubble Boy’.
Convene a regional summit in the M.E. negotiate and end to sectarian violence in Iraq guaranteed by the U.N. and GET THE FUCK OUT!
Our nation faces tremendous problems and we just don’t have time to waste with ‘Shooter’, ‘Scooter’, ‘The Idiot’ the rest of the ReThug Clowns nor…
The Idiot Dems who do not realize you don’t put out a house fire by pissing on it.
You get professional help, you draw up a plan and you execute it. Over the politically dead bodies of the corporatist scum in your own party’s ranks if necessary.
Tell the ‘Democrat’ Party:Time’s Up!