[Ron Paul with Steve Hempfling of the Free Enterprise Society. For a gallery of other Patriot favorites from the FES, see here.]
I have to admit that when Rep. Ron Paul announced his candidacy for the Republican presidential nomination, I didn’t raise much of an eyebrow, even though I am a longtime Paul watcher. After all, he’s run before; his 1988 Libertarian Party candidacy attracted little attention because he ran mostly from the fringe, and his views haven’t changed substantially over the years.
What I didn’t expect was that his anti-war advocacy would attract as many evident admirers from the left as it seems to have, particularly those who are dissatisfied with Democrats’ apparent fumbling of the Iraq war issue. Certainly, the message boards at liberal outlets like Crooks and Liars who’ve carried factual counterinformation about Paul have been flooded with raging defenses of the man, as have some of our comments threads.
To what extent this is an illusion created by Paul’s legion of True Believers is difficult to ascertain. Paul is very well organized online — much of his support is derived from this — and it’s entirely likely the flood of “liberals” and “progressives” who are busy arguing that someone like Paul is worth forming an alliance with are, in fact, simply part of Paul’s corps and they’re doing their part to muddy the waters and ultimately attract new supporters in a “Third Way” kind of strategy.
And to some extent it seems evident that they’re succeeding. Mostly, they seem to be taking advantage of a combination of amnesia among those experienced enough to know better, and simple ignorance on the part of progressives who’ve never heard of, or paid any attention to, Ron Paul previously. They hear Paul’s carefully crafted antiwar rhetoric and his critique of the Bush administration — all of which elide or obscure his underlying beliefs — and think it sounds pretty good, especially for a Republican.
As my cohort Sara has already explained, there’s a real problem with that — namely, for all of Paul’s seeming “progressive” positions, he carries with him a whole raft of positions well to the right of even mainstream conservatives.
A more important point, though, that’s overlooked in all this is that Ron Paul has made a career out of transmitting extremist beliefs, particularly far-right conspiracy theories about a looming “New World Order,” into the mainstream of public discourse by reframing and repackaging them for wider consumption, mostly by studiously avoiding the more noxious and often racist elements of those beliefs. Along the way, he has built a long record of appearing before and lending the credibility of his office to a whole array of truly noxious organizations, and has a loyal following built in no small part on members of those groups.
And it’s equally important to understand that he hasn’t changed his beliefs appreciably in the interim. Most of his positions today — including his opposition to the Iraq war — are built on this same shoddy foundation of far-right conspiracism and extremist belief systems, particularly long-debunked theories about the “New World Order,” the Federal Reserve and our monetary system, the IRS, and the education system.
Much of this has already been documented by Sara here and here, as well as by phenry at dKos (who has more here) and by Off the Kuff, which also notes Paul’s kookery on Social Security.
The Republican Party has a history of hosting right-wing fringe figures like Paul, people who portray themselves as patriotic conservatives and exploit the latent conspiracism and paranoia of their audiences well enough to win election to Congress, but who actually build remarkable records of non-achievement once in D.C., mainly because their beliefs are so far removed from the mainstream that no one pays them any mind, except the folks back home, who are persuaded by all the bellicose flag-wrapping that these characters are doing the job they want done back in Washington. I had the fortune (both good and bad) of covering three such figures from Idaho over the course of my newspapering career: George Hansen, Steve Symms, and Helen Chenoweth.
All of these folks, at various times in their careers, were publicly quoted saying things that were at the very least racially charged and insensitive — but in the end, it became difficult to make the case that they were outright racists. What all of these incidents did reflect, however, was their willingness to adopt racist talking points and ideas and parrot them unthinkingly, which similarly reflected their susceptibility to associating with right-wing extremists of a broad variety of stripes. This didn’t mean that they were racists per se — particularly if your definition of racism includes attacking members of other races hatefully. Rather, what it demonstrated unquestionably was that they had extremely poor judgment, especially regarding whose ideas and agendas they helped promote.
The same is generally true, I think, of Ron Paul. While I think the evidence that Paul is incredibly insensitive on racial issues — ranging from a racially incendiary newsletter to his willingness to appear before neo-Confederate and white-supremacist groups — is simply overwhelming, it isn’t as simple to make the case that he is an outright racist, since he does not often indulge in hateful rhetoric — and when he has, he tries to ameliorate it by placing it in the context of what he thinks are legitimate policy issues. (Hansen, Symms and Chenoweth were also skilled at this.)
To be fair, Paul has written on the subject of racism and seemingly denounced it. But take a close look at his argument:
- Racism is simply an ugly form of collectivism, the mindset that views humans only as members of groups and never as individuals. Racists believe that all individual who share superficial physical characteristics are alike; as collectivists, racists think only in terms of groups. By encouraging Americans to adopt a group mentality, the advocates of so-called “diversity” actually perpetuate racism. Their intense focus on race is inherently racist, because it views individuals only as members of racial groups.Conservatives and libertarians should fight back and challenge the myth that collectivist liberals care more about racism. Modern liberalism, however well intentioned, is a byproduct of the same collectivist thinking that characterizes racism. The continued insistence on group thinking only inflames racial tensions.The true antidote to racism is liberty. Liberty means having a limited, constitutional government devoted to the protection of individual rights rather than group claims. Liberty means free-market capitalism, which rewards individual achievement and competence, not skin color, gender, or ethnicity. In a free market, businesses that discriminate lose customers, goodwill, and valuable employees – while rational businesses flourish by choosing the most qualified employees and selling to all willing buyers. More importantly, in a free society every citizen gains a sense of himself as an individual, rather than developing a group or victim mentality. This leads to a sense of individual responsibility and personal pride, making skin color irrelevant. Rather than looking to government to correct what is essentially a sin of the heart, we should understand that reducing racism requires a shift from group thinking to an emphasis on individualism.
This is, in fact, just a repackaging of a libertarian argument that multiculturalism is the “new racism” — part of a larger right-wing attack on multiculturalism. This is, of course, sheer Newspeak: depicting a social milieu that simultaneously respects everyone’s heritage — that is to say, the antithesis of racism — as racist is simply up-is-down, Bizarro Universe thinking.
If Paul’s express views on racism are less than convincing, then the piece that appeared under his name in 1992 about black crime, as reported by the Houston Chronicle, was simply damning. The ugly smear intended by the rhetoric in that case was unmistakably racist. Paul has since claimed it was ghostwritten and he wasn’t paying enough attention, but that doesn’t explain why he continued to defend those views to a reporter four years later, in 1996:
- Paul, a Republican obstetrician from Surfside, said Wednesday he opposes racism and that his written commentaries about blacks came in the context of “current events and statistical reports of the time.”… Paul, writing in his independent political newsletter in 1992, reported about unspecified surveys of blacks.”Opinion polls consistently show that only about 5 percent of blacks have sensible political opinions, i.e. support the free market, individual liberty and the end of welfare and affirmative action,”Paul wrote.Paul continued that politically sensible blacks are outnumbered “as decent people.” Citing reports that 85 percent of all black men in the District of Columbia are arrested, Paul wrote:”Given the inefficiencies of what D.C. laughingly calls the `criminal justice system,’ I think we can safely assume that 95 percent of the black males in that city are semi-criminal or entirely criminal,” Paul said.Paul also wrote that although “we are constantly told that it is evil to be afraid of black men, it is hardly irrational. Black men commit murders, rapes, robberies, muggings and burglaries all out of proportion to their numbers.”
A campaign spokesman for Paul said statements about the fear of black males mirror pronouncements by black leaders such as the Rev. Jesse Jackson, who has decried the spread of urban crime.
What Paul never explained was that one of the primary sources for this information about black crime came from Jared Taylor, the pseudo-academic racist whose magazine American Renaissance was at the time embarked on a long series of tirades on the subject (the June 1992 issue was primarily devoted to the subject; the statistic claiming that 85 percent of black men in D.C. have been arrested appears in the August issue), the culmination of which was Taylor’s later book, The Color of Crime, which made similarly unsupportable claims about blacks.
This sort of unspoken dalliance — an uncredited transmission of ideas, as it were — takes place all the time with far-right politicos like Ron Paul. It’s one of the reasons to be concerned about any traction they may actually gain within the mainstream.
This is especially the case because there is nothing in Paul’s present behavior or positions that is inconsistent with his past; he’s just more astute about how he voices them. No reporter yet seems to have asked him about his belief in the “New World Order,” notably.
His history is replete with far-right dalliances, and more importantly, many of his current positions are taken directly from the extremist right, and in fact embody the propagation of their longtime agenda. A look at his record makes clear how and why this is so.
His propensity for right-wing extremism manifested itself fairly early in his career, even before he ran for president as a Libertarian. One of the earlier signs of this was his association with Gary North, the son-in-law of R.J. Rushdoony, the founder of Christian Reconstructionism and himself a leading figure in the movement. North served briefly on Paul’s staff in the 1970s, but their association continued well beyond that.
For instance, Chip Berlet at Public Eye noted Paul’s attendance in 1985 at an “investment planning seminar” put on by North at the Los Angeles Airport Hyatt. Among the speakers were a panoply of right-wing conspiracy theorists, including Antony Sutton, Joel Skoussen, Dr. Frank Aker, Larry Abraham, and Howard Ruff, as well as Constitution Party founder (and militia sympathizer) Howard Phillips and … Ron Paul. More recently, North could be found expounding on the wisdom of Ron Paul.
Along the way, Paul developed as one of his major ongoing themes the extremist belief that the Federal Reserve is an illegitimate authority, that our current monetary system is built upon a house of cards and is due momentarily to collapse, and that to avoid such a fate we must return to the gold standard and abolish the Fed.
Notably, Paul makes only passing reference to this at his campaign Web site:
- In addition, the Federal Reserve, our central bank, fosters runaway debt by increasing the money supply – making each dollar in your pocket worth less. The Fed is a private bank run by unelected officials who are not required to be open or accountable to “we the people.”
He’s much more explicit about all this in his book The Case for Gold, which takes old far-right theories about the legitimacy of the monetary system and launders them of their sometimes explicit anti-Semitism and presents them as devout and reasoned patriotism.
These arguments, in fact, have had some currency on the extremist right for some years now, having been a favorite theory of the Posse Comitatus and various tax protesters, including the Montana Freemen, who themselves picked it up from other conspiracy theorists, and then used it for creating fictitious monetary systems of their own. As I explain in Chapter 5 of In God’s Country: The Patriot Movement and the Pacific Northwest:
- The Freemen justified this with an argument straight out of Roy Schwasinger’s seminars: The federal government was bankrupt and illegally printing bogus money anyway, money that no longer had any basis, since the government took the dollar off the gold standard in 1971. So the Freemen were free to create their own money out of equally thin air — not only that, but by basis of the “constitutional” nature of the common-law courts that issued the liens, their system was more legitimate than the federal government’s.The alternative-universe notion that the Federal Reserve system prints “funny money” based on no real foundation has floated about on the far right for years, and is a key component of some cult belief systems like Lyndon LaRouche’s. In reality, the modern international monetary system is based on the economic engine behind each kind of currency — the levels of supply and demand that a nation produces. It is, like all economic systems, essentially a mental construct, but it has very real grounding in the work of producing goods and services within each nation. The American dollar’s continuing strength abroad is a reflection of our nation’s output; indeed, it is still considered the basis of most international currency rates.Those who argue that money must be based on some hard commodity — usually gold and silver — ignore the fact that when a currency is based on gold, the value given to gold is as essentially arbitrary as that assigned to paper currency. That is, the value of gold would rise and decline according to the value of the output behind the economic system using it as a standard. Indeed, since gold is still used in manufacturing and jewelry-making, the crossover between gold as a commodity and gold as an expression of currency had the tendency to destabilize the currency system, which is why the United States went off the gold standard in 1971.
These tax-protest theories extended to other beliefs, including the notion that the Internal Revenue Service is an illegitimate agency and the federal income tax a scam. As the ADL explains in this report, have been circulating on the fringe right for some time now, mostly in the guise of the tax-protest movement. And Ron Paul has been one of their leading figures in the past decade:
- The other tax protest movement to emerge in the second half of the 20th century had a very different history. It was an extreme right-wing movement that had its origins in longstanding conservative opposition to the income tax, which was ratified as the 16th Amendment in 1913. Conservatives objected to the progressive nature of the tax, the loss of personal income, and, later, the intrusive nature of the withholding process. Some pointed out that a “heavy progressive or graduated income tax” was one plank in Karl Marx’s Communist Manifesto.Early opposition in the postwar era was relatively mild and consisted in large part of various campaigns to repeal the 16th Amendment. Of these, the most important were attempts to pass the so-called “Liberty Amendment.” First introduced in Congress in 1952, it essentially tried to strengthen states’ rights. However, in 1957 Congressman Elmer Hoffman of Illinois introduced a revised version of the Liberty Amendment that included a section mandating the abolition of income, estate and gift taxes. In this form, the amendment garnered considerable support among extreme right-wing conservatives as well as the budding libertarian movement.In the late 1950s, Willis Stone became national chairman of the Liberty Amendment Committee and tried to raise support for the proposed amendment through a book, Action for Americans. Stone and the Committee were able to persuade several state legislatures (eventually nine) to request that Congress send the amendment to the states for ratification, but this fell far short of the requirements for a constitutional amendment. Since then, far-right conservatives have repeatedly tried to reintroduce the Liberty Amendment in Congress — most recently by Congressman Ron Paul of Texas in 1998 — but without any success. Given the costs of the Cold War and the simultaneous expansion of government services in the 1950s and 1960s, it is not surprising that Stone and the Liberty Amendment Committee had little chance of success.
For much of the far right, especially the Bircher element, accompanying this hostility to the IRS, the Fed, and the federal monetary system was a similar hatred of the United Nations. And again, Ron Paul has been a leading figure in this regard in Congress; he continues annually to promote the American Sovereignty Restoration Act, which would withdraw the United States from the U.N.
Helping fuel the U.N.-bashing in the 1990s, you’ll recall, was the conspiracy theory holding that the “New World Order” suggested by the first President Bush in 1991 was actually part of a larger plot to enslave the world under a global government located at the U.N. Black helicopters and sightings of Chinese troops massing on the borders were part and parcel of these beliefs.
And helping promote these beliefs, and lend them the legitimacy of his office, was Congressman Ron Paul, who even to this day promotes the “New World Order” theories — it is, indeed, much of the basis of his hostility to the Iraq war. Just three years ago he gave an interview to Conspiracy Planet on the subject of the NWO, and this is how it went:
- EF – I’ve read in The New America that you are aware of the Round Table Groups, Skull & Bones, and other “secret societies” that have actively participated in the dismantling. In your essay “Neoconned”, you went so far as to align the Bush Administration with Trotskyites. However, it seems that the Bush/Skull & Bones guys are perpetually fighting the United Nations, the CFR, the Bildebergs. Are the Bohemian Grove Republicans on the same team as the Rockefeller Round Table members, or are they at war?RP – You know, their rhetoric suggests they might not like the United Nations, and you hear that often. They’ll be complaining about the United Nations, and this and that. But, we have to remember, when it came time to get authority and a reason to go to war, they mentioned the United Nations twenty-one times in the authority, when we voted for the authority for the President to go to war when he felt like it.I think what’s going on, they’re not anti-U.N., they’re anti-U.N. if they don’t do exactly what they want. Because there is a fascist-type faction that wants to keep the military/industrial complex going, and the oil control. Then there’s the Kofi Anan-type guys. They are Socialists. They like world government.Richard Perle, not too long ago, made a statement that he thought we should get out of the United Nations. Well, I think that’s, sort of, to pacify some of our supporters. They figure, “Oh, this is great. We’ve never had a President so sharply critical of the United Nations.” But in his mind, they may well be believing they are saving the United Nations or transforming the United Nations, rather than being opposed to world government.EF – You have also written (and I have quoted you) that the U.N. is actively working to criminalize the 2nd Amendment. Who do you think the men at the top are, and what is their ultimate plan?RP – Anybody in Washington that likes big government, authoritarian government, which is most of them; deep down, the 2nd Amendment is their greatest obstacle, in the physical sense. Their other greatest obstacle is the right of free speech.
I think that they haven’t been able to be as aggressive with guns because it’s a healthy sign of this country. I think our people defend the 2nd Amendment better than they defend the 1st Amendment. Which is sort of a twist, I think. Twenty years ago that probably wasn’t the case.
Once again, what they say and what they really want are two different things. They criticize the U.N, yet they want to build it up. They can say they support the 2nd Amendment. At the same time, they wouldn’t mind curtailing that freedom. Because that is the ultimate freedom.
I kid a lot at my speeches and say, you know, I believe in gun control. I want to take the guns away from those 100,000 federal bureaucrats who own them. The Al Gores of the world, Schumer, these people…they want a monopoly of the guns. They never talk about getting rid of the guns from the bureaucrats. But, they want to get rid of the guns from the people who can’t defend themselves.
EF – Going off that, Americans are still reeling from the ‘95 Clinton ban? How many Congressmen and Senators would you estimate are actually directly involved with these plans of destruction? Or can most claim ignorance?
RP – You know, it’s weird. From outside and observing it objectively it looks like that’s what they are dedicated to. Many are sort of dupes.
It’s sort of like us on our side, who believe in pure liberty. We have a lot of support and a lot of help. But, a lot of people aren’t as dedicated. On the left, there’s probably just a few who really believe in totalitarian government completely and totally. So, it’s the propaganda that you have to watch out for.
Just look at how the propaganda machine gets busy when they decide the country must go to war. It’s really a powerful force.
EF – You have sponsored legislation that would get America out of the United Nations. Some Americans believe that if we must go to war, that the United Nations would be the people to fight. You have claimed that the U.N. is actively working to destroy American sovereignty. Can you list of the main bullet points that support that theory?
RP – Well, just everything they’ve done. Everything the U.N. does from day one, you give up a certain amount of your sovereignty. And, the worst giving up is this notion of going to war under U.N. resolutions, which we did very quickly after we got in the United Nations. There was a U.N. resolution and we sent off all those men to get killed in Korea.
Whether it’s that, or the WTO that manages trade, or the IMF that we subsidize with our taxpayers’ money and then they go off and play games with their special interests. They rarely ever help poor countries. The World Bank isn’t any better. That’s an international welfare scheme. It’s sold as a scheme that’s going to help poor people in poor countries. But, all these programs end up helping the very wealthy, connected corporations and banks.
Note, if you will, that the interviewers’ questions are all predicated on a belief in old far-right conspiracy theories about “banking elites” [read: Jews] are secretly out to control the world — and Paul clearly accepts those premises as valid.
The embrace of extremist beliefs also includes Paul’s views on education: just as he’d like to eliminate the Fed and the IRS, he’d also like to do away with public education. He’s an avid supporter of the Alliance for the Separation of School and State, and has been since its inception. You’ll note his inclusion as a supporter on their Web site.
With all these extremist beliefs forming the underpinnings of his political agenda, it follows, like night and day, that he’ll be exhorting like-minded extremists to follow. This is why you’ll find, in Paul’s record, a nearly unbroken string of appearances before various far-right groups, from the Gary North wackaloons in the 1980s to various “Patriot” organizations in the 1990s to neo-Confederate and white-supremacist groups like the Council of Conservative Citizens and the League of the South.
It’s also why you’ll find him coming to the defense of a variety of right-wing extremists involved in violence, from the cross-burners Sara described here, to the Branch Davidians and the Indianapolis Baptist Temple, which engaged in a similar armed standoff with authorities.
And that in turn is why Paul enjoys so much support among the far-right racists and conspiracy theorists out there. These range, as Sara has noted, from David Duke and the Stormfront folks to the neo-Confederates, tax protesters, and Birchers — all believers in the “New World Order,” all fans of Ron Paul. This shows up, for instance, in the unusual level of support that Paul enjoys among members of the Constitution Party — Howard Phillips’ far-right entity that was a significant promoter of the militia movement in the 1990s. Indeed, listed among the leading supporters of Paul’s presidential bid this year are Chuck Baldwin, the 2004 Constitution Party Vice Presidential candidate, and Jim Clymer, the Constitution Party chairman.
These are the people who are empowered by Ron Paul’s presidential campaign — and the more traction he gains, especially if he can start pulling in support from the antiwar left, the more they will revel in it. Only a “progressive” who remains unconcerned about the increasing influence of the extremist right in our mainstream politics will be interested in lending Ron Paul and his supporters even a nod in the direction of the time of day.
Ron Paul may or may not be a racist — and arguing about it is likely to end up nowhere. But what is unmistakably, ineluctably true about Ron Paul is that he is an extremist: a conspiracy theorist, a fear-monger, and an outright nutcase when it comes to monetary, tax, and education policy. The more believers and sympathizers he gathers, the worse off the rest of us will be.
[Cross-posted at Orcinus.]
Related posts:
- Paul-Grayson “Audit the Fed” Bill Passes Financial Services Committee
- Gov. Patrick Names Paul Kirk to Replace Late Kennedy in Senate
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Paul Starobin, After America: Narratives for the Next Global Age
- World Economy Finding a Bottom Because the Keynesians are in China
- Benedict’s Challenging Words to Congress and the World: Aid the Poor






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uno???
wow- my lucky day!
dos?
The daily show clip with Ron Paul was wonderful- a truth teller!!
will most likely be attacked as soon as he gains any traction
Jane!!!
tres?
so now reading the above I am thinking why haven’t the nut casers embraced him yet?
A true pleasure to see you here, David.
To what extent this is an illusion created by Paul’s legion of True Believers is difficult to ascertain. Paul is very well organized online — much of his support is derived from this — and it’s entirely likely the flood of “liberals” and “progressives” who are busy arguing that someone like Paul is worth forming an alliance with are, in fact, simply part of Paul’s corps and they’re doing their part to muddy the waters and ultimately attract new supporters in a “Third Way” kind of strategy.
…Mostly, they seem to be taking advantage of a combination of amnesia among those experienced enough to know better, and simple ignorance on the part of progressives who’ve never heard of, or paid any attention to, Ron Paul previously. They hear Paul’s carefully crafted antiwar rhetoric and his critique of the Bush administration …
A more important point, though, that’s overlooked in all this is that Ron Paul has made a career out of transmitting extremist beliefs, particularly far-right conspiracy theories about a looming “New World Order,” into the mainstream of public discourse
This could have been written about another wolf-in-progressive-sheep’s-clothing; namely, these are very similar to the tactics of Lyndon LaRouche: true Believers attacking Bush hoping to draw people in to their weird conspiracy-theory world…
Well, although I applaud Ron Paul for his frankness about Iraq, I couldn’t help but think about the first time he was on Real Time with Bill Maher. After listening to him speak, I immediately thought, “He’s the right-wing version of Kucinich.” Just remember, while he may be ahead of the curve on Iraq, on many other things he’s not even in the ballpark.
I don’t get it. As much as we’ll never go back on the gold standard, Paul is right. Going off of it has lead in part to the massive debt we now have today. The other thing I think some people are missing is, progressives will take all the help they can get in helping to end the Iraq misadventure. If that help comes from guys like Paul, then so be it. I don’t think many people want to make a long term strategic alliance with the guy. Just end the Iraq War.
Thunderbird @ 10
Yeah, that was something all right and that’s along the lines of what I was thinking as well. I know Bill kept trying to steer Mr. Paul, but he wasn’t having it. On TDS with Jon Stewart, he came across more eloquent.
Oh, Christ – I’ve got to go turn off the TV, now they’re chasing Mrs. Hilton with the cops blaring thru bullhorns (oh, sorry – there PA systems on the cars) – ‘clear outta da way!’
Thunderbird @ 10
Iraq is the only reason most Progressives like him. It is surely not a wholesale love fest. I don’t think anyway.
I have had a lot of friends and family members express support for Paul recently and my response has generally been “WTF? Do you have any understanding of what he stands for?!?”
The thing that drives me nuts is that there may be enough voter frustration to make someone like this a somewhat viable candidate.
My dad’s name is Ron Paul.
he retired from the International Union of Operating Engineers a couple of years ago.
He used to be an International rep and lived in Alexandria. He often had to go up to the hill and talk to Congress critters and staff.
He is a real personable guy and easy to like.
He noticed he would get strange and often angry looks when he would introduce himself and for the life of him could not figure out why.
It was only later that he heard of this other Ron Paul, the Senator, that he figured out why.
We get a kick out of Ron Paul for President.
I need to get him a bumper sticker.
I remember those three, Dave….hmmm, who was the nuttiest? George, Steve or Helen? This might be an all day pondering session.
Dreaming Crow @ 14,
Were they for Perot when he ran?
I’m running into people who told me they voted for Perot, and I’ll have to ask them if they like Paul.
Margot @ 18
Some of them, but nowhere near all.
Perot. What a joke. I remember being the only member of my large household to vote for Clinton in ‘92, the year that I turned 18.
OT — Just watching the thunderstorms trundle up I-71 on the radar, and it just occurred to me:
What happens to the Bush Administration if we have a Katrina-clone this year? I’m assuming the Administration’s performance would be as dismal as the last time — would it be the straw that breaks the elephant’s back?
Hi David Neiwert, thanking you for lifting the veil.
DreamingCrow @ 18
That reminds me of when I voted for the first time in 2000 (proudly for Al Gore), then had a conversation with my dad about voting, when he let it slip that he voted for Perot in ‘92. I asked him why and he said quite simply, “He was the only one that didn’t seem to be totally full of s***.” LOL!
DreamingCrow,
This county had a huge vote for Perot. One of the largest in the country, I was told (although I tried to look it up and couldn’t verify that).
Wo. I had no idea.
Thank you David Neiwert.
Hagel is another one who has gotten a lot of good pub out of (finally) being against the Iraq mis-adventure. But in every other area, he is a true blue bushie to the core, although not as far to the right as Paul.
Of course many antiwar progressives that are beginning to consider backing Paul are aware of his libertarian background and how he would work to undermine much of what the Democratic Party has accomplished in last 70 years. But:
He is opposed to the Iraq war. More importantly he is opposed to those policies endorsed by both parties that led to this war. (i.e. Does the United States really need 600 oversea military bases? Does it need to police the rest of the world? Was the war against Serbia necessary?) He has traction with those people who feel strongly on these issues.
He is the only candidate in either party who has vigorously criticized the undermining of our civil liberties that has occurred beginning with the Patriot Act, wire taps etc. Too many Democrats have been silent on these issues.
So the question comes down to this. Are we willing to risk social security in our efforts to both stop a war that could easily go nuclear and reverse the governments assaults against personal freedoms enshrined in the bill of rights.
I suppose many here are not aware that Germany had the most highly developed social welfare system in the world beginning in the 1880s and was re-established after the devastating inflation of the 1920s. Hitler never dismantled that system. If I had to choose today, I would risk social security to combat war and fascism.
BTW. I am an active member in the Democratic Party and will not likely join with Paul. But I understand those people on the left who may yet support him. You shouldn’t dismiss them lightly.
you wrote:
“They hear Paul’s carefully crafted antiwar rhetoric and his critique of the Bush administration — all of which elide or obscure his underlying beliefs — and think it sounds pretty good, especially for a Republican.”
Could you clarify this, I have no idea what you were trying to say.
As for the fact the Ron Paul is “very well organized online”…yeah, he’s got one hired hand in New Hampshire…Not exactly the juggernaut of some of the top tier. What is true is that many libertarians have no one to support, love Paul, are online, and are expressing themselves…LOTS AND LOTS of little keystrokes, like I’m doing right now.
Libertarians have loved Ron Paul for years. MOST Republicans never heard of him, ditto for most Democrats.
And, principled opposition to the way, compare that with HillObamaton and every other Republican.
It’s the war, stupid.
Of course what Ron Paul has going for him is that he has nothing to lose, and thereby can say the kinds of things that we wish we heard from more heavily-invested candidates that have more on the line. Paul is daring to say “We need to get the heck out of Iraq.” and since he’s a Republican, and he’s saying actual Republican things, we think there’s a chance he might represent that portion of the Republican party that resents having been co-opted by the Neocons.
But the enemy of my enemy is not always my friend, he can sometimes be a simple opportunist. Close examination of Ron Paul reveals that the only reason he seems to be coming from the Left is because he has gone so very very far to the Right that he’s starting to circle back.
But Ron Paul is excellent for the Progressives because he (and anyone else with courage, such as Kucinich) can demonstrate for our less-courageous candidates the value and vibrancy of PLAIN SPEECH. The Obama and Clinton campaigns are competing to gain an advantage with the voters, and the campaign that will gain that advantage is the first one that realizes that speaking plainly, truthfully, and directly will seize the attention of a population simply starving for courageous leadership.
On the other hand, I will vote for Ron Paul if he selects for his running mate Ru Paul, that will be an irresistable ticket, and America would collapse with style…
DreamingCrow @ 14
OT but saw your note about the buddy poppys and the yellow ribbon last thread. I grew up selling those (my dad was active in VFW). Haven’t been offered one or even seen them in years but always look. May the woman with the the yellow ribbon receive her just karma.
OT to dak — happy birthday! Pair of fives in your p*ker hand, huh?
All your “critiques” come down to the position of “Government is good, people are dumb sheep and need to be coddled, as are all other nations on the planet.”
Hello? How in God’s name did this become a respectable position to have?
Dave, if you’re here,
I finally got around to reading _Strawberry Days_. You’re such a tremendous writer!
Between 1973 and 1975 I worked from time to time at Main Fish Company on the Seattle waterfront, at Pier 60, then at Pier 66. It was owned by the Hikara family, who lost everything in 1942, but struggled hard after they got out of the camps and went from farming to fish trading and became millionaires. Reading your book about the eastside berry farming families brought back memories of stories many of the Japanese employees at Main Fish shared with me.
What are you coming out with next?
david – i don’t think i disagree with any of the evidence you’ve provided here… but it’s a matter of degree. our alternatives include people who advocate for such things as doubling gitmo or a possible “preemptive” nuke strike against iran.
imo, there’s a real risk of expanding our gulag system, further erosion of our civil rights, nuking iran or suffering another major terrorist attack here in retaliation for our foreign policy. … while the risk of going to a gold standard, defunding public education or further screwing up our taxes just doesn’t seem as urgent or risky.
there’s just no comparison. paul sounds safer on the big risks than all of his R and possibly some of his D competition.
yes, i get that’s an very low standard. and i’d like to have non-extremist politicians and a sane political system. but i don’t see that on offer right now.
so maybe i’m really confused, but i don’t see why we shouldn’t at least be talking with him about how to withdraw from iraq and move to a less imperialistic foreign policy. i don’t have to like any of his other positions.
what am i missing?
I was very interested in Ron Paul until I heard him say that he thought we should privitize most Government services such as Medicare, Social Security, etc.
He’s a huge proponent that we should privitize most everything except the military. We’d all like a little less government. However, I’m not willing to turn all government functions over to corporations whose main goal is to make Wall Street squee with joy every three months.
If corporations kept the public’s best interests as a goal, there wouldn’t be the miriad of laws that protect the public from them.
I’ve always considered Mr. Paul to be a delightful idiot. He provides me no end of entertainment as I watch him debate his R team “brothers”.
But, take him seriously? Nope.
Ghostman
Thank you so much for this David.
I have had a bad “feeling” about Paul, but have not been able to put my finger on what it is. You have.
And I have been really bothered by the way he is being lionized on progressive and anti-war blogs (mostly in the comments, but still), and this really *gets* me. Just because one guy says one thing that you agree with, doesn’t mean he is a “good guy.”
And I always mistrust ideological libertarians (as opposed to those who are libertarian by nature) because it is always a screen for a social and economic Darwinism (which I find repugnant) — which at its most extreme, is racism pure and simple.
David, please forgive this interruption: I recently saw this CNN blog post about Alberto Gonzales: Gonzales to face no confidence vote Monday
Just because some right wing loons claim the global economic system is a house of cards doesn’t prove that it isn’t. One point in fact is that the reason the US went off the gold standard was not for the reasons you give. It was because the US was near bankruptcy under the gold standard after expensive military adventures in Korea and Vietnam. Michael Hudson, an economist hired by the Nixon administration to predict the results of unilaterally going off the gold standard (and no right winger), warned them it would lead to exactly the kinds of trade imbalances we see today. I recommend his classic book “Super Imperialism, the Origin and Fundamentals of US World Dominance”
retirin’ in five @ 29
Yeppers!
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 35
I don’t think Dav is here or here yet…
Ron Paul must be addressed on the issues. The corpus of his work clearly shows he is not a racist.
Ron Paul is clear on his positions. His straight talk and speeches can be found here:
http://www.house.gov/paul/
In summary, he is a constitutionist.
People find him structurally appealing because 1) they agree on core principles such as a firm foundation of rule by law and not by presidency, I mean, man, 2) they agree with many of his positions and 3) they like Paul’s law-abiding, aboveboard frankness concerning positions where they don’t agree. This is why you find both progressives and conservatives standing side by side.
Yet, there are a few people who seem to be progressives who are writing long articles against Ron Paul.
OT to mods. Sorry about that. I blame Clinton.
continuing…. ron paul sound nuts about a bunch of stuff… but what he says about terrorism is right on, while the rest of the presidential candidates are nuts.
Ed*ard Teller @ 38
Is this more smoke and mirrors or will it finally force AGAG’s resignation?
Ron Paul is kicking G.W. Bush in the nuts. Of course the liberals and progressives will cheer. They don’t really want him to win they just like it when he takes jabs at our preznit.
Ron Paul would privatize virtually the entire Federal bureaucracy. The same for his racial attitudes-if you can’t compete, tough. You could call him a Social Darwinist because he thinks that the free market is the only arena that matters, and that people who can’t compete, the sick, old, disabled, minorities (either racial or cultural) should have to survive without any assistance or protection from government.
dakine01 @ 29
Yeah, I was impressed to see one myself. It saddens me as yet another sign of how little we value our veterans, actually. The VFW and other such organizations are mostly elderly people now and there’s fewer of them. Younger people just don’t seem to be interested in getting involved.
Yeah, karma’s a b**ch and so am I. I almost went up to her and told her what I thought, but I was with my family. :p
I notice that at least three times in the front page post for this thread, Neiwert makes fun of the “New World Order” issue. I also noticed several commenters making light about it.
Well, it may be that Ron Paul’s version of the NWO is kooky, but that doesn’t mean that Poppy Bush, David Rockefeller, and many others aren’t quite serious about it.
Let’s get real, folks. We regularly recognize the threat of Big Money’s hold on the Republicans and the DLC, but connecting the dots leads straight to the NWO, and all of a sudden, we think its just silly.
Well, the joke’s on us, if we don’t connect the dots right. George Orwell’s 1984 has proven prophetic in more ways than one. Look up “Confessions of an Economic Hit Man” to see more signs of the emerging NWO.
I am NOT suggesting swallowing the Libertarian kool-aid on this, either Ron Paul’s version or any other. But I am warning that the NWO business is worth looking into. Big business is now more international than national, and there’s nothing that big business likes better than fascism (perhaps dressed up as democracy), because its easier to control.
Bob in HI
Curious to see so many new people commenting. I suspect there will be more.
This support for Ron Paul, from independents and the left, is a reflection of the parched thirst of the public for some plain talk on the subject, to hear someone to tell the truth without equivocating. That is the allure. I think all candidates should take heed.
Does that mean I would support him? Of course not. I couldn’t vote for a libertarian and I would never vote for someone just because he opposes the war until I checked out his background more thoroughly. And thank you for this detailed analysis of his past positions and policy ideas.
SeamusD @ 45
i agree. but so do all the Rs and enough of the Ds (they just don’t say so). i hate these policies. but if the choice is between a person who thinks this and in favor of the iraq occupation and imperialism in general; and a person who thinks this but is against the iraq occupation and imperialism in general…..???
Thank you, David! This was needed.
Sir:
First, your attempt to smear Dr. Paul using “guilt by association” tactics is pathetic. If you and other “progressives” want to disagree with his policies, of course this is your right. But, please, stick to reasoned arguments against policy positions, rather than ad hominem attacks.
Second, you said:
Those who argue that money must be based on some hard commodity — usually gold and silver — ignore the fact that when a currency is based on gold, the value given to gold is as essentially arbitrary as that assigned to paper currency. That is, the value of gold would rise and decline according to the value of the output behind the economic system using it as a standard. Indeed, since gold is still used in manufacturing and jewelry-making, the crossover between gold as a commodity and gold as an expression of currency had the tendency to destabilize the currency system, which is why the United States went off the gold standard in 1971.
Regardless of what groups like the Freemen do or say, this has little bearing on the validity of the truly economic arguments against fiat currency. Of course gold, or any other commodity currency, is subject to fluctuations in valuation, just as paper currency is, but the big, important difference is, that while more gold can be mined, and hence enter the money supply, this process is relatively slow, requiring significant capital outlays for mining equipment, prospecting, etc, whereas paper currency can be mass-produced at will, in any amounts, for a pittance. This ability to inflate constitutes a hidden tax on savings and investment, and has a much more egregious effect on the poor and middle class, a truly regressive tax if there ever was one.
“Progressives” like you need to learn a thing or two about the true principles of economics, and liberty for that matter. Stick to arguing the issues, if you can.
egregious @ 47
egregious – curious and encouraging as well. BTW you have red-faced mail. :o(
Remember kids, No Kibbles.
egregious,
David Neiwert invented the term “eliminationism.” I’m hoping to see Don Young eliminated from politics within the next few months.
Bustednuckles @ 55
Oooh, but it’s so hard . . .
Kibbles and bits and bits and bits . . .
I should go do housework instead.
Indeed, since gold is still used in manufacturing and jewelry-making, the crossover between gold as a commodity and gold as an expression of currency had the tendency to destabilize the currency system, which is why the United States went off the gold standard in 1971.
We went OFF the gold standard because its used in jewelry too ? LMFAO thats very rich. Cogent analysis. Do yourself a favor and google 1971 gold standard and get an education pal.
I wasn’t taken in by the Paul frenzy other than cheering when he talked sense to the other Republicans on the war, but when he was asked (by Jon Stewart, maybe?) about laws that protect us from corporations and replied that of course corporations like Halliburton that are making their money off the government are bad, but otherwise corporations should be free to do anything they want.
It brought me back to one of the reasons why the Libertarian faith has never appealed to me — the idea that government is the only force that’s a danger to the individual, and that if government just gets out of the way, then everything good that government does will somehow magically happen anyway.
Ron Paul is, first and foremost, a Republican.
I was a registered Libertarian for nearly ten years. Paul became that party’s nomination for President and I registered as a Democrat.
I was raised as a Republican and maybe the Libertarian party was the methadone that weaned me away thinking of myself that way. I never voted Republican, I think Watergate and Reagan are the culprits here.
so…
Paul appeals mostly to people who want ‘Republican’ to mean something besides the Keystone Kops place it’s at. to each their own but I don’t see the point in it.
most people I know who call themselves Libertarians were right with Team Bush up until maybe the ports deal.
same as the people who call themselves “Independents” when they call in C-Span and rail against Hillary.
sure, Paul is appealling because he’s saying 2 2=4 in a field that says otherwise. I think it’s a crying shame that this should stand out so much.
next time somebody spits milk through their nose because I like Kucinich, what you wanna bet they think Ron Paul is a steadfast tin soldier?
I’ll bet you a dollar.
All you need to know about Paul is that he epitomizes a libertarian belief system in almost every aspect of his existence.
The last thing this country needs to do at this juncture is to ping-pong back and forth on the conservative end of the political spectrum between authoritarianism and libertarianism. Don’t get me wrong, getting the fascist associations with corporate culture out of power cannot be a bad thing, but not in favor of replacing it with a brand of conservatism that is just as destructive in its selfishness as libertarianism.
We need to swing back to some good old, God un-fearing, swinging liberalism…raise the freakin’ taxes to 50% on everyone who makes more than minimum wage…spend a third of that on edjumacation…a third on socialized medicine…and give the remaining third to the conservatives to ‘conserve’ after they’re done paying down their goddamn debt!
What a great post.
David, thanks for educating me about Ron Paul’s racism and his death wish for the public sector.
Blergh.
ANd welcome to new commenters at the Lake!
To comment on DreamingCrow’s statement. I am a young person. I don’t usually get involved in politics because people like David Neiwert and others, who are more interested in pointing fingers and calling people names than examining facts or history, stifle our enthusiasm and contribute to the general disdain experienced by most young people today. I am one who is interested in examining all sides of a situation. So am I a kook, because I have still found no law that says I have to pay income taxes? Am I a radical extremist because I believe the government has no right to invade my privacy? As a young person with an open mind, I am offended by you, David Neiwert. It is apparent to me that you are more interested in grouping people and taking sides than considering the facts. I don’t think the word bigot ever applied more.
cage free brown @ 61
That’s a sucker bet, mostly. ::sigh:: Kucinich is out of touch in some ways, but I have a damn soft spot for him.
Bob @47: Isn’t globalism basically a euphemism for the NWO?
2 plus 2 equals four.
when am I going to post one of these things without crapping it up?
DreamingCrow @ 56 –
i’m sorry if i’ve been obnoxious… and i’m not trying to support ron paul… but, i am trying to have a conversation – i know, it’s been one-sided and i’ll stop after this one if i don’t get any takers.
i just don’t want to hold paul to a different standard than the more “mainstream” pols.
i mean, earlier this year bill clinton accepted a prize from president uribe while gore refused to share the stage with uribe (from david sirota)… and i really, really hate uribe (how many deaths of union activists is he responsible for?)… (and i won’t even start with the hundreds of thousands of childrens’ deaths caused by clinton’s iraq sanctions)…but if clinton comes up with a good policy position, i’m still going to consider it.
selise @ 68
I deleted that comment as not feed certain people who are posting.
However, I do want to say that I’m not finding you obnoxious at all. You are calmly discussing your feelings and impressions, without making it into personal attacks.
Thanks for posting; need to finish the rest of the article. The intersection between progressives and libertarians has been on the back-burner on my mind lately. I’ve been trying to reconcile the “get off my arse” libertarian with the more progressive side.
I don’t doubt the online polling for paul is heavily skewed. I for one, as a registered dem, vote, online, favorably for Paul and unfavorably for the other repug candidates. Once the voting is conducted via partisan lines I’d wager his approval rating would decrease. Progressives have the largest online presence, no?
Free Acadien @ 52
I have never understood the reasoning behind gold having value. It is a bright shiny object that cannot feed or house. It is has no more value than cockle shells. I guess the exception would be its use in industry. Gold is just part of the game of creating value where there is none. Sort of like the value of a overly paid CEO.
When the final chapter is written on the fall of the U.S. one of it’s contributing factors will be it’s mythic simplistic belief in the “rugged individual against the world mind” set as exmplified by Libertarianism.
Bob Schacht @ 47
Thank you.
Ron Paul said–”In addition, the Federal Reserve, our central bank, fosters runaway debt by increasing the money supply – making each dollar in your pocket worth less. The Fed is a private bank run by unelected officials who are not required to be open or accountable to “we the people.”
The poster’s problem with that? The odd thing about this quirky article is that it attempts to smear Paul for addressing real issues in a serious manner. Obviously, the author has a vested interest in the status quo.
I just wanted to say that I’ve admired David Neiwert for years and I always appreciate reading his perspective on things. Yes, his beliefs match mine, to a point, but that’s not why I admire him. He usually provides a reasoned discussion full of verifiable facts, not personal attacks. This is something that we could use a lot more of in Blogistan, on both sides.
********WORLD WIDE BREAKING NEWS********
Paris Hilton ordered back to jail
LOL
I think her name should be Picayune Hilton.
Cozumel @ 74
Good grief, jail or no jail. I can’t keep up. I keep hearing different things! Aaauugghh! The suspense is killin’ me! ;^)
Mary McCurnin @ 70
It’s all John Keynes fault. He determined that the scarcity of something makes it more valuable.
Now, in a real sense, gold is pretty so that’s an attractive quality that makes it useful. It also has some rather stunning abilities with conducting electro magnetic frequencies, that’s hard to come by, increasing it’s demand (damn you Keynes, damn you); and, finally, the stuff just doesn’t tarnish. If Rodin could have worked in gold, he would have.
Bustednuckles @ 15
My poor wife’s name is Pat Paulson. People still remember–just last month a friendly plumber made a crack.
They have their Ron Paul. We have our Mike Gravel who also has an uncomfortable history with anti-Semitic groups.
johnSwifty @ 77
Yea, but
given those qualities does it make sense that entire monetary systems should be based on it? I think Rodin would have stayed with bronze due to its gravitas and beautiful patinas. Plus, I am allergic to gold.
Benjamin Otto @ 12:01 pm -
Let’s start with the Sixteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution, ratified in February 1913:
Next, please refer to Title 26 of the United States Code, in which the Internal Revenue Code is contained.
Of course we remember Pat Paulson. He was “neither right wing, nor left wing, but rather, middle of the bird.” Plumbers always have funny cracks.
Right on the money David!!!
The IRS is great. If I fail to file my tax return I can get 1 year in jail or a $25,000 fine, and no one has ever been falsely convicted of this heinous crime since the forms are easy to understand and any layperson can correctly calculate his or her own return. There was a time when the country had no IRS and it was in shambles. These dark ages, thankfully, only lasted about a 150 years.
I think the federal government should control all aspects of education. I know for a fact that a senator from Delaware would know exactly how to allocate funds to schools in California.
If states were solely responsible for education
we might be ranked 24th out of 24 industrialized nations instead of 18th.
Before the federal reserve act there was a series of booms and busts in the American economy that the fed finally ended that. Instead of booms and busts there is just the gradual, reliable decline of the dollar. Now just being worth 4 cents compared to the dollar of 1900. Luckily the congress has complete control of the privately owned federal reserve, and Ben Bernanke attentively abides by every recommendation (oh yeah they can’t really tell him to do anything)the congress gives him. Thankfully there has never been an instance of unregulated fiat currency causing
economic disaster.
egregious @ 48
yes, indeed. and we’ll see which ones stay around and which were just drawn by this topic.
Must be another community somewhere that people are monitoring sites like this and deciding to come “join the conversation”
Hey, I’m a dyed in the wool Democrat but I’d have a huge amount of respect for Paul. He voted against the war from the beginning. Edwards and Clinton can’t say that!! I’m more of a Gore or Kunnich type but if it came down to Hillary as the Dem nomine, I’d vote for Paul as a protest vote. She is just neo-con light to me. The whole congress is goig to go hugely democratic in 2008. His extreme views would be in check anyway. He is a Pat Buchanan type to me but quote Hunter Thomson on Buchanan “He is absolute honest in his lunacy”. Ditto that for Paul.
Oh, and conspiracy is a crime not a theory.
the strange thing I notice about libertarianism is the strong positive correlation between libertarianism and employment either by the feds or by a gov’t contractor …
DaVeep @ 78
lee5 @ 83
That’s my assumption, as well. It’s interesting to see who shows up when discussing controversial topics and for some reason, Paul is most definitely one.
I’m not a new poster, I’m just usually only here for Late Night. ^_^
The good thing about Paul is he has zero chance of winning but a huge chance to stir the s**t up and change the focus of the G.O.P. debate. That’s a good thing to me.
DaVeep @78
I goofed my response, sorry!
DaVeep @ 78
Wow, Ron Paul sorta looks like an energized Pat Paulson! (I mean, the other Pat Paulson, of course, not your wife!!)
Big Mitch @ 78
I was unaware of this. Do you have any helpful links? The link to your blog wasn’t helpful in that respect.
I assume y’all have heard about the no confidence vote on Gonzo set for Monday?
It’s sad that we’ve come to a point in America’s history where the idea of simply following the Constitution is considered “radical” and “extreme”.
You can learn more about how fiat money makes inflation possible and how our current monetary system is a “house of cards” by studying the writings of economists of the Austrian School. Wikipedia’s article on inflation isn’t a bad place to start.
Finally, you say that abolishing the income tax is a the province of the extreme-right. You might be interested to learn that in 2002, a measure to abolish the income tax in (the People’s Republic of) Massachusetts almost passed with 45.3% of the vote.
DreamingCrow @ 87
Hi dc … I alternate between posting when I get a chance during the day (sitting on a runway at la guardia hoping we’ll take off eventually) and hanging out at late nite, and late late nite …
TiredFed @ 91
Yup. Does that make this resignation Friday?
Mary McCurnin @ 80
Ahhha, the truth will out! You are obviously biased against gold!
Who knows, gold was probably just in the right place at the right time to gain in popularity. That old Check, Joachimsthal (from where we get the term ‘dollar’, short for ‘thallar’); probably chose gold because it was just rare enough to have value but easy enough to come by that it could be used as a currency. The weight, itself, might have been useful because it was hard to counterfeit.
Platinum is certainly more rare and has some rather impressive electromagnetic qualities of its own; but maybe it was too rare to be useful as a basis for a monetary system.
The sad truth is that it really doesn’t matter if the monetary system is base upon anything, as long as the participants continue to play and pay. That is a very real reason why the Bush administration is so very damaging to America on a global political scene. Since Reagan, when we became a serious debtor nation, we are more than a little dependent upon the good will of other countries to support our debt.
Ron Paul would have you believe that is the fault of the insidious rulers of the federal reserve. I think it has more to do with the Republican problem of spending money that isn’t there. Nixon didn’t like the gold standard. Reagan didn’t like the middle class and the Bushes didn’t ever see a industrial war contract they didn’t mind spending for. That’s the real problem with the deficit, and Ron Paul won’t fix that by scaring the illuminati out of office.
twolf1 @ 94
a guy can hope right?
OT …
and another one decides to spend more time with his family and quit his job in order to help fund his kids college education. nytimes linky
“General Pace to Retire as Joint Chiefs Chairman”
TiredFed @ 96
It would make an adequate Friday news dump. Tho honestly, we’ve seen better. Our standards are going up.
Mary McCurnin @ 69
Mary, your lack of understanding comes from a flawed understanding of “value”, which is common among most people these days, but particularly afflicts “progressives”. Guys like Keynes and Marx (heck, even Adam Smith) subscribed to the “labor theory of value”, which held that things have intrinsic value. This is patently false. The truth is, as Carl Menger said, “Value does not exist outside the consciousness of men.” Put another way, all value is subjective. Another poster talked about gold being shiny, nice to look at non-tarnishing, etc. These may represent some of the reasons why people may value gold, but that value will always be subjective. (BTW, this iron-clad rule of value is equally applicable to CEO pay, which is none of your or the government’s business, only the shareholders.) I reiterate my assertion that education in the true principles of economics and liberty is desperately required. (BTW, as if paper can “feed or house” any more than gold? Actually, if I could afford it, a house build of gold would serve just fine, and be very durable, whereas a paper house would disintegrate in the first good rainstorm.)
johnSwifty @ 94
Its all because of Alchemy–all those medieval sorcerors hanging out in their basements, trying to convert lead into Gold.
The rest is, as they say, history.
“It would make an adequate Friday news dump. Tho honestly, we’ve seen better. Our standards are going up.” I thought the General Pace thing was the Friday dump. Gonzo resigning today would overshadow that. I’m thinking that Pace is it today.
Free Acadien @ 99
Hence, “The Dismal Science”.
Paul’s a white, conservative, Texas GOPuke. What makes anyone think he’s ‘insensitive’, as opposed to being another east texas cracker asshole who could care less about ‘insensitivity’?
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 103
or sensitivity for that matter
Hey! Is Donita doing her music stuff today?
Mandrake @ 64
Thank you, Mandrake! After I posted my comment, I had one of those V-8 forehead slapping moments because I forgot to mention globalization.
Globalization is a word for a process, and it is indeed one of the dominant processes of the NWO. The phrase NWO points a little more, I think, at the faces behind the process. There are more than a few faces involved, which means that to dismiss the NWO as a “conspiracy theory” misses the mark. I think the NWO represents a plutocracy more than a conspiracy, but plutocrats can conspire, no?
There are important faces to the NWO– today, maybe Rupert Murdoch? On the other hand, it is often the company name rather than the CEO– for example, can you name the current CEO of Halliburton?
In any case, thanks for the reminder about globalization, which is certainly real, and certainly connected to the NWO. Whether it is a euphemism for it is an interesting perspective!
Bob in HI
FYI, Jane is upstairs
and which ‘true principles’ would those be? the free market? the iron fist inside the velvet glove? supply and demand?
i, for one, await illumination on the ‘true’ economics.
more seriously, on the OT topic of Pace’s departuer, wapo sez:
and everyone will just roll over and kumbaya together w/ the new nominee? who of course will be a paragon of integrity and straightforwardness, this goes without saying given who he’ll be nominated by.
TiredFed @ 96
This one’s for you, Tired Fed
Dream
Woodhall Hollow @ 100
I think you’re onto something there, either that or you’re on something. Here’s a really interesting read that’s interspersed with history from alchemy to coinage as only Stephenson can do: Quicksilver
raven @ 102
I see, so because it’s “dismal”, we should all ignore it to our detriment? Huh? The flawed views of economics promulgated by Marx, Keynes, and the current crop of Neo-Keynesians are what have led to most of the screwed-up policies that we are all living under. And of course, these are the same people as the “Progressives”. BTW, Bush, et al, are no better. (I include most Repubs going back to Lincoln). Two different sides of the same tyrannical coin.
TiredFed @ 96
i do not believe Gonzo will resign, under any circumstances.
prolly that’s just me, but i just cannot see it: he’s too valuable to the bushistas as a shiny object to dangle in front of froward Dims and set them frothing impotently…
Free Acadien @ 100
When a product or commodity goes up in price due to the pay scale of the big guys in a corp why is this not my business? Sure, I can boycott the goods but some of those goods I need for my survival. Next you are going to tell me to be grateful to the jerks gouging me at the pump, the pharmacy, the grocery store, etc. The people at the top are not the only ones that create the world we live in.
You have you head stuck way too far up your “educated” ass.
Just when I was beginning to admire FDL as a good source of no nonsense info, you turn around and attack Ron Paul for telling the truth about these neo-con jerks in office.
I have long suspected that there wasn’t a dimes worth of difference between today’s dems and reps, this suspicion was driven home by Pelosi’s immediate declaration that “Impeachment of GWB was off the table”,
combine this with Bill Clinton signing NAFTA into law, letting China into the WTO, then getting all buddy-buddy with Bush senior, you get the picture.
Atleast Ron Paul has the guts to speak the truth as he sees it in an intelligent manner.
His opinions on the federal reserve and gold standard are dead on accurate in my book.
Finally someone who speaks truth to power, and you guys try to belittle him! WTF!
jomoco
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 108
The true principles I speak of are based on natural law. Like gravity, you can try to deny they exist, and try to defy them, but you will only hurt yourself (and others, if you’re a politician) in the process.
johnSwifty @ 111
I thought about referencing quicksilver … thx for doing that.
Free Acadien @ 112
No, brother or sister, you jam on.
Burning Spear
Paul’s appeal to progressives comes down to this: How important do you think it is to withdraw from Iraq and further reduce our presence in the ME. I think war with Iran could very well lead to nuclear war. Given that what is the more important debate today: Gold standard? Social Security? or world peace?
I have my priorities.
Mary McCurnin @ 114
Go Mary, go Mary, It’s your birthday!!!! Wooo hooo!
What is Free Acadien @ 116
oh, i just LOVE natural laws…gravity, entropy, thermodynamics, evolution, optics…great stuff…
problematically, there are no analogous universal constructs in economics. Foucault goes all through this stuff in “The Order of Things.”
Mary McCurnin @ 114
Again, you show your ignorance. If you think that prices of goods and services go up in a truly free market, you are sorely mistaken. Just take a look at the prices of computers and technology products. This is one of the least regulated markets, and the prices consistently drop, while quality and abundance increase. All this despite the level of CEO pay (or maybe because of it?) Did it never occur to you (of course not, silly question) that it is the interference of the government in the free market (including giving special favors/subsidies to big donor corporations, no argument there) that causes the high prices you complain about? What is “gouging” anyway? How are prices set? Are they as arbitrary as you apparently think? My invitation to get educated is sincere, and not intended as an insult.
Hey Dave!
George Hansen was the most innocuous of the three–his own lawyer told the judge he was “not crooked, just stupid”. (Some corruption charges in the 70’s I think.)
They’re part of the gang changing Idaho’s motto to “Idaho! The Stupid State!”. The goofy militia guys and their adherents seem, here in the northern end of the state, to be mostly about finding ways to keep money/not spend it/ make it off others without having to work too hard.
There was a vogue for a while for making your own license plates so as not to pay car licensing, printing your own money so as not to have to pay real money for food or mortgages, and so on. The most annoying to me was the pastor quitting his job so his paycheck couldn’t be attached for child support after a nasty divorce. He also claimed he didn’t need a drivers’ license because that was a “State Thing”. (As though the roads were all in heaven?)
I think one big reason this sort of thing takes hold here is that it is generally very hard to make a living in Idaho, the north especially. And with the reputation as a sort of last frontier, the idea that laws don’t apply, or are thinly enforced, etc. A libertarian playground.
All comes back to loving money money money, and not wanting to be pestered with facts or told what to do.
raven @ 118
Sorry, I apparently misunderstood your point. But hey, hopefully I made a good point anyway.
jomoco @ 115
You’re soooooo right. Just show us who’s boss and leave us in the dust. Here’s a nice little site for you to live at:
Don’t let the screen door hitcha…
Free Acadien @ 124
I guess my point was that I think you are right but I’m not certain what to do with the information?
Bustedknuckles at 15, if you think that’s bad, my law school buddy has a father named Fred Phelps. Much, much worse.
As for Paul, he is a fringe candidate. But we should be more worried about MAINSTREAM lunatics like John McCain and Mitt “Null Set” Romney.
Re “Social Darwinism” and making it entirely on your own:
Here’s an example of how productive government can be, of how impossible it can be for an individual to make any progress, and how unlikely it is that corporate “individuals” will match the achievements of government-sponsored activities: scientific research.
NIH funding made possible essentially all the advance in knowledge about biology and medicine since the beginning of the ’60s in this country.
Hardly any problem of interest could have been attacked by a single individual: too much time, effort, knowledge, equipment, supplies, and living support are required. Even a wealthy, gifted individual could not contribute much to this kind of science. It is a group endeavor, even though the group may only be 2 or 3 people.
Corporations demand profit, and there is no business model for “pure knowledge” or “basic science”. Since corporations have such a need for income and no curiosity as such about the world, they flit from one project to another, dropping work on something the instant that it threatens not to pan out: they have the attention spans of gnats.
If you destroy or cripple government or run a government that is excessively friendly to businesses, then you cut off the funding for basic science, and that stream on fresh knowledge is not going to be replenished by any other entity.
Now the bad news: it has already happened. The percentage of grant applications presently funded by NIH is well below 10%, I am told. How are you going to tell someone to go through grad school, post-doc years, and the years after that in labs hoping that one day you will be able to write your own grant and get it funded, when the top and near-the-top people can’t get money to sponsor research and pay salaries?
This is what contempt for government and idolization of individual effort have brought us: a basic science research establishment that is a walking corpse but just hasn’t had the good sense to fall over yet.
You want a slogan? Here’s my motto: “Life’s too short to vote Republican.”
Free Acadien @ 122
You have an amazing gift for irony. I’ve never read any more insincere sincerity, and your attempts to be non-insulting are most insulting in the extreme. It’s really quite brilliant how you say one thing and profess to intend another. Have you considered a future with the current administration? I think there are openings.
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 121
So because Foucault said so, it must be true. “Progressives” (and many others, to be fair) have long attempted to deny the existence of natural law outside of the physical realm. This conveniently allows them to try all manner of asinine social engineering schemes, which usually rely on dictatorial powers, or at best, mass deception. Why don’t you go read Human Action, by Ludwig von Mises (it’s free online)? You’ll discover that there are indeed “analogous universal constructs” in the science of economics. This approach to economics is vastly different than what is typically taught in today’s universities. But then again, that just speaks in its favor.
raven @ 126
Educate others, persuade. Unlike the “progressives”, we should seek to change people’s behavior through persuasion, not at the point of a government gun.
Free Acadien @ 122
You make too many assumptions. I didn’t say anything about the free market or goods and services only going up. And, of course, computers and technology products went down. Many more were purchased. And I didn’t mention government interference once. Perhaps gouging is the price of healthcare going up 2.5 the rate of inflation. And please don’t tell me I don’t know anything about the price and benefit of our healthcare system and how it is derived. I know the healthcare system from the point of view of consumer, caretaker and doctor. My responses are indeed emotional. It is a product of my most personal experiences moving through this world.
Free Acadien @ 130
Oh, again, brilliant irony. You’re just a madman with your genius. You begin by admonishing someone’s belief in Foucault as frivolous and end in claiming an equally unfettered belief in a more esoteric personage. Simply stunning! Almost godlike in hubris. It is so bright, it BURNS!
Re site performance: “Refresh Comments” button hanging or s-l-o-w, while browser refresh reacts in <2 seconds.
Also, in my comment @ 128, insert “friendly” or some such word after “excessively” in 4th para from end.
you appeal to your authority and i’ll appeal to mine…
Benjamin Otto @ 62
A kook? No.
Wrong? Absolutely.
For a more balanced and less dismissive summary of the “New World Order,” see the Wikipedia article. It reveals, btw, that Dick Cheney has his own ideas about the NWO.
Bob in HI
behindthefall @ 134
For some reason, this often happens when a new thread is upstairs.
Bob in HI
Mary McCurnin @ 132
RP favors industrial hemp too. Go Ron!
burnspbesq @ 136
this is a fascinating debate…
there is quite a convincing argument to be made that there exists no statutory language in the US codes that explicitly requires the citizen to pay ‘income tax.’
go youtube income tax…ron paul is in this respect, broken clock-wise, to a contestable extent, ‘correct.’
.
America’s worst enemy is America’s first enemy and that is the international bankers. You think America revolted against England because of tea? Research “Colonial Scrip”. When we won the Revolutionary War you think the international bankers just give up and left us alone.
Ron Paul is opening every one’s eyes that are willing to listen and research. David Neiwert is Ron Paul pulling the wool over peoples eyes or is it you ?
I’ve never understood why all the libertarians didn’t up and move to Somalia. It was their dream world! An unfettered free market! No taxes! No central bank! No government propaganda, because there was no government!
Alas, the people of Somalia have realized what people everywhere have been realizing for thousands of years: that while good government may be rare, almost any government is better than no government.
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 80
Stephen, I used to deal with folks like this when I worked for the IRS. You can’t reason with them. This guy is about to tell you that the Sixteenth Amendment wasn’t properly ratified, and that the Internal Revenue Code only applies to D.C. residents and Federal employees.
Just let the Criminal Investigation Division and the U.S. Attorney’s office handle him.
GordonM @ 143
Word, brother!
M @ 33
Read up on him. While that’s his personal philosphy, he admits that’s not important to him. He wants to take powers away from the Executive branch, move toward abolishing the IRS, bring our troops home and rebuild our defenses.
He’s possibly the only candidate who does not want to nuke Iran.
More importantly, he is theonly one I trust not to change his mind after he gets elected. Hillary and Obama are likely to start a bigger war just to prove they’re not weak. After all, Clintion was also a nation builder.
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 135
Agreed. Appeals to authority are obviously limited in usefulness. That was my point, and my attempted irony. (Though I still highly recommend Mises to anyone). I return to my original point by quoting a friend of mine, who likes to say, quite simply: “Some things are true, whether you believe them or not”. There are natural laws that govern economic interaction. Trying to deny them will only lead to destruction. As evidence, I cite all manner of “progressive” policies, from the New Deal to the Great Society and beyond, along with the harm they have caused, despite the best of intentions (perhaps). So it doesn’t matter if you don’t believe in these laws, they will assert themselves anyway. Learn to live in harmony with them, and we prosper, individually and as a people. Seek to fight against them, and we only destroy ourselves (slowly or quickly, depending only on how far out of sync we are).
M @ 33
If these corporations love him so much a measure of that might be how much money they (i. e. Wall st, corps) have given to his campaign. The monetary reforms he proposes wins him no friends on Wall Street. Most of his supporters simply want the government’s nose out of their financial affairs (among other things). No other candidate is currently offering that as part of his platform.
GordonM @ 143
Libertarians aren’t anarchists.
Somalia is not a true anarchy – it’s warlordism.
And their economy is actually doing ok.
syvanen says:
June 8th, 2007 at 11:22 am
Of course many antiwar progressives that are beginning to consider backing Paul are aware of his libertarian background and how he would work to undermine much of what the Democratic Party has accomplished in last 70 years. But:
He is opposed to the Iraq war. More importantly he is opposed to those policies endorsed by both parties that led to this war. (i.e. Does the United States really need 600 oversea military bases? Does it need to police the rest of the world? Was the war against Serbia necessary?) He has traction with those people who feel strongly on these issues.
He is the only candidate in either party who has vigorously criticized the undermining of our civil liberties that has occurred beginning with the Patriot Act, wire taps etc. Too many Democrats have been silent on these issues.
So the question comes down to this. Are we willing to risk social security in our efforts to both stop a war that could easily go nuclear and reverse the governments assaults against personal freedoms enshrined in the bill of rights.
I suppose many here are not aware that Germany had the most highly developed social welfare system in the world beginning in the 1880s and was re-established after the devastating inflation of the 1920s. Hitler never dismantled that system. If I had to choose today, I would risk social security to combat war and fascism.
BTW. I am an active member in the Democratic Party and will not likely join with Paul. But I understand those people on the left who may yet support him. You shouldn’t dismiss them lightly.
WOW — EXCELLENT POINT.
I agree. How much can one man, even the president, do to dismantle Social Security? Not much. Congress won’t let him.
So how much good could he do? Plenty. He talks about the tryanny of the fed reserve creating money out of nothing and charging us interest on it.
If it comes down to Hilary and Ron a lot of progressives will be tempted. Of course, the diebold machines won’t let it come to that.
Free Acadien @ 139
You should never make assumptions about implications since interpretations of implications are only assumptions.
Ron Paul for president
jesse ventura for VP?
yeah i like that
Mary McCurnin @ 151
That is probably true. But in your zeal for me to avoid assumptions based on implications, you have completely avoided the more important subject(s) at hand.
dumbya @ 150
He has actually said that he would rather spend the money we are spending on policing the world on American social programs.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig7/davis4.html
if there is one ‘law’ of which i can conceive that bears the durability of, say, say, gravity, it might be expressed as follows: every market tends inevitably toward and–unrestrained–will eventually succumb to monopoly.
I wouldn’t trust everything that David has to say. He has as much of a political ax to grind as Ron Paul does.
All “isms” are suspect to me. All ideologs, Left or Right espouse delusional systems of thought. All ideologies, Left or Right, are not based on scientific realities. They spring from philosophical interpretations of reality. As such, they are just shadows on Plato’s Cave walls. Walk out of the cave and into the full light of day. One definition of Ideology is: “imaginary theorization”. The Left may label themselves as “reality based” but they are not. Reality admits of no ideology what so ever.
The reason that people feel this disconnect between some of the statements that Ron Paul has made is because they are trying to fit those statements into a Left/Right political dichotomy that does not exist in the real world. The real world contains only facts and nothing more. Ron Paul and Nom Chomsky are two peas in the same ideological pod.
The day that humans give up politics for reality is the day that humanity will be free and not a moment before.
/rant mode off
i think the thing that’s got me the most frustrated is that NO PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE is talking about the root causes of suicide terrorism as accurately as ron paul.
jeeze… there’s a whole thread over at the TMP empire on how dems should counter rudy guilani when he says that poverty isn’t the root cause of terrorism?
and no one on that thread is discussing robert pape’s work – he’s gathered the data and done the analysis, the only comprehensive empirical study that i’m aware of.
his conclusions? it’s not poverty and it’s not islam – it’s the occupation.
why is ron paul the only one willing to say this? is he the only candidate to have read pape’s work?
isn’t this important? at least as important as the gold standard (whatever you think about that)?
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 155
Perhaps, but it’s unfair to immediately condemn capitalism as ineffective, because we’ve never truly had it. Government regulations and excessive taxation tend to strangle small attempts to compete, and the few that survive get purchased by the very Goliaths they were competing against.
But what we have now isn’t Capitalism. What we have now is Corporatism, a combination of big business money and big government power sleeping together.
OT: Michael Moore on Bill Maher
fyeieio…
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 155
Historically (i.e. prior to the “progressive” redefining of the word), the meaning of “monopoly” has always meant a government grant of exclusivity in a given market. If a firm gains a large enough market share to be termed a monopoly by providing goods and/or services at prices or terms such that most people choose freely to buy from that firm rather than any other, such a “monopoly” only helps the consumer. Provided the government does not create artificial barriers to entry for new firms, so-called “monopoly” (as “progressives” define it) is impossible.
Ron Paul certainly talks true to more American hearts than all other candidates in either party. Ron throws off sparks like a forefather. He wins debates hands down. Ron is beloved on both Bill Maher and Daily Shows.
Ron Paul has consistently voted against the USA PATRIOT ACT, the MILITARY COMMISSIONS ACT of 2006, and the IRAQ WAR. Ron never votes for any bill he believes violates the Constitution.
Ron Paul would stop the government printing presses from turning out funny money 24/7.
Ron Paul will end the IRAQ WAR, and never go to war with IRAN.
For his stance against an IRAN WAR, A*P*C is going all to stop Ron Paul in his tracks with manipulated news and talking points — many of which were none to subtlety embedded in David Neiwert’s introduction.
Ron Paul is a professional man, a smart man, and an American to the core of his being. I urge you to concentrate on the man, and leave the gossip and left-handed compliments to A*P*A.
jomoco @ 115
You’re misguided. The theories Ron Paul embraces on gold and the federal reserve are about as credible as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and the Hitler Diaries.
It’s bunk. Dangerous libertarian bunk. You’ll waste the rest of your life believing that shit. Buy Paul Krugmans introductory economics texbook to get your head straightened on this.
In your first couple of paragraphs.
>>extremist beliefs
>>far-right conspiracy theories
>>mostly by studiously avoiding the more noxious and often racist elements of those beliefs
>>he has built a long record of appearing before and lending the credibility of his office to a whole array of truly noxious organizations
>>Are built on this same shoddy foundation of far-right conspiracism and extremist belief systems
So, do you get more readers by these ‘noxious’ comments? Now, now really tell us how you feel.
I’m sorry, but no-one can predict the future. I’m 48, a Utah Republican, and I’m currently researching Ron Paul and am leaning towards voting for him.
At least he isn’t one of the other robot clone candidates from which we have to choose.
Free Acadien @ 160
That’s not what I was taught in school. There are different types of monopolies, with “government monopoly” being one of them.
Northern Observer @ 161
Wasn’t he an Enron advisor?
noen @ 156
I agree in principle, but if we are all sitting in the proverbial cave watching shadows cross the wall, how are we to avoid ideologies? Who among us is the philosopher-king that sees clearly enough him/herself to show us reality? Plato’s analogy sounds good, but he of course presumes that those like himself should rule, because, of course, only they truly see the world as it really is. Sounds like a recipe for tyranny to me. Now, if all a would-be philosopher-king tries to do is persuade, then I say, go for it! Good luck! But force is unacceptable (whether in Iraq or at home!)
angela @ 158
Amen.
angela @ 158
That is a sad fig leaf excuse about as credible as well Bush isn’t really a conservative. Conservative is as Conservative does. Free Market is as Free Market does. We’ve had 250 years of Capitalism since the start of the industrial revolution in the 1750s. The results are in. The patterns are visable. The tendencies are clear. There is no pure free market utopia possible. It would have happend by now. God you libertarians sound like a communist saying that communism is still ‘the best’ cause it really hasn’t been tried yet …. GONG.
I don’t need utopia I just need some common sense and Ron Pauls ideas are all utopian BS that will mess us up so bad you would wish you were never born.
Noen:
Just curious — what ax do I have to grind?
If you’ve read my work at all (notably this) you’d find your own views on ideologies and ideologues pretty well reflected.
angela @ 163
What school? A government-run public school? A Left-wing dominated university? Sad to say, even at some universities that are considered “conservative”, the worst sort of economic tripe is served up as truth.
the government is not the only entity to erect barriers to markets.
there is no ‘free market’…it is impossible, due to the systematic inequities constituting the social landscapes which the markets inhabit and must necessarily replicate…possibly the marketplace of ideas here in cyberspace is close to a perfectly decontextualized universe in which every idea has equal standing, depending only on the ability of the thinker to access, and utilize, a computer, a keyboard and a phone line…
you’d hafta admit there are plenty of non-governmental barriers to participation in this market…
Amatyra Singh, a nobel laureate in economics about 10 years ago, won his award for the work he did from which he concluded that famine was virtually never a matter of supply but one of allocation and distribution…
sorry i cannot continue this longer; i got places i gotta be…
cheery-bye, now
That is a sad fig leaf excuse about as credible as well Bush isn’t really a conservative. Conservative is as Conservative does. Free Market is as Free Market does. We’ve had 250 years of Capitalism since the start of the industrial revolution in the 1750s. The results are in. The patterns are visable. The tendencies are clear. There is no pure free market utopia possible. It would have happend by now. God you libertarians sound like a communist saying that communism is still ‘the best’ cause it really hasn’t been tried yet …. GONG.
I don’t need utopia I just need some common sense and Ron Pauls ideas are all utopian BS that will mess us up so bad you would wish you were never born.
Actually, I don’t believe in an entirely free market either, but I think that entities like unions are better choices than government interventions.
I guess we’ll have to disagree.I can’t really debate all of his ideas in this thread, that’s for sure.
Free Acadien @ 170
Ohio State. Looks like Wikipedia agrees with me.
David Neiwert @ 169
David,
Just anything in opposition to the new sacred cow, Ron Paul, seems to elicit an emotive response. The rush away from the insanity of Bush seems to draw a certain faction to the cliff that is Ron Paul. It is the nature of lemmings, I wouldn’t take it personally if I were you.
Great post and great background information.
Keep it up and many thanks!
Northern Observer @ 167
Libertarians and others who support a laissez-faire free market have never claimed that it brings about utopia, i.e. solves all of societies problems. They do claim, however, that it is the only system consistent with individual liberty and will lead to the greatest good for the greatest number. An enlightened Capitalist knows that true wealth is never simply measured in dollars, but he also knows that only free exchange creates wealth of any kind.
angela @ 164
Yep. For one year, 1999. He was brought in to give advice on the world economy, especially asia during the financial crisis where he had expertise. He has never hid this. And this past relationship did not prevent him form being the leading critic of Enron when the California Energy scandal broke where he repeatedly smacked down libertarian and conservaitve misinformation about the innocence of the company and the “impossibility” of market manipulation.
Your attempt to discredit him with this factoid marks you as very right wing influenced. It’s the first thing any wingnut brings up when they don’t want to discuss his ideas.
http://www.pkarchive.org/
Free Acadien @ 165
I’m not a Platonist, it was just an analogy. I guess you could say that I am a science nerd and I react to all ideological proponents from the left or the right and see little difference between them. That is why I said that David, being the good progressive he is, is just as much an ideolog as anyone on the right. Gravity doesn’t give a damn what political party you belong to and neither would a truly scientific economic theory. But I don’t know enough to say if such a thing exists or not. I suspect that the wealthy and the powerful see it as in their interest to game any economic system you might come up with. Just as they see it is in their interest that people not know the truth about global warming, or any of a number of other things for that matter.
Facts are facts. They only become political when they affect people.
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 170
I appreciate that you have to run. The real world calls. But I will reply nevertheless. I never said that government was the only barrier to entry, I said that the government creates artificial barriers to entry. By artificial, I mean barriers not created by economic realities, but rather by the arbitrary decisions of politicians or bureaucrats.
Allocation and distribution are functions of supply. Your famine example is reminiscent of The Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner: “Water, Water, everywhere, and not a drop to drink”. Not a perfect analogy, but here’s another: If I have a warehouse full of bread, but no way to get it to market, so that consumers can buy it, then my warehouse full of bread simply does not constitute a part of the total supply. But in the free market, I as an entrepreneur certainly have greater incentive (i.e. profit) to overcome my distribution problems than does the government bureaucrat, eh?
johnSwifty @ 174
jon, you have it about right. Depressing numbers of folks out there are just champing at the bit to go over the most convenient cliff, relying on the latest Tinkerbell to supply the pixie dust.
David is an ‘attacker’? Ron Paul is being ’smeared’?
Translation: “He’s saying embarassing things about our guy!! And we can’t refute him, so we’ll try and change the subject!!! MEANIE!!!”
angela @ 172
I’m sorry, wikipedia (more precisely, the author of a particular wikipedia entry) agrees with you about what? The different types of monopoly? or about the nature of scholarship at Ohio State?
captain goto @ 179
Eh, whataya gonna do? People are stupid. Me, I’m gonna go dumb myself down with a nice tall scotch and soda.
Cheers!
johnSwifty @ 173
My emotive response comes from a different place and maybe it would be better if I didn’t choose this moment to get into it. I see myself as neither left nor right nor centrist. What I see is a troop of primates murdering each other over a pile of bananas while polluting themselves into extinction.
I am GLBT and see my interests lie with Dems and progressives but I have enough experiences of having liberal knives firmly planted in my back that I simply do not trust you completely.
Northern Observer @ 175
I don’t know what these other supposed libertarian and conservative folks had to say about Enron, but as a libertarian, (and Ron Paul himself has made statements to this effect about Enron) the problem was that there was market manipulation, enabled primarily by massive government subsidies to Enron. Only a fool would declare that there are no firms run immorally, but the market would punish these firms (i.e. drive them out of business) much more quickly if the government weren’t propping them up with subsidies. A lot less people would get hurt.
Northern Observer @ 176
What is the difference between an fact and a factoid, anyway?
Admittedly, I was never able to get much past that fact, or factoid, whichever it was. IN all honesty, I’m also really not up to speed on any of the pro or con arguments about returning to the Gold standard, anyway. If I thought there was a remote chance it might happen, maybe I’d be more interested.
But that’s not the agenda that a Paul Presidency would pursue.
captain goto @ 179
Yes, apparently it’s time to leave. This is quickly turning into typical name calling match instead of an intelligent debate about social and economic theory.
angela @ 183
A factoid is a half-truth. There are liberal and conservative half-truths.
I believe in truth, period.
Northern Observer
I completely agree with your economic views of Paul’s thinking. It is for those reasons that they do not bother me. If he put the US dollar back on the gold standard the resulting liquidity crises would force its immediate abandonment. Same with some of his utopian free market ideas.
This short term damage to the economy would be a acceptable trade-off for the damage resulting from expanded war in the ME.
I despise all Republicans. Period. But I sent Ron Paul money with a note telling him I despise all Republicans. Why? Because, here’s a politician who actually seems to say publically that the Constitution is still operative. How astonishing that is in the waning age of Bush.
Free Acadien @ 174
They do claim, however, that it is the only system consistent with individual liberty and will lead to the greatest good for the greatest number
Once you start believing in the only system type of thinking you are on the road to Utopia. You have taken the first step towards ignoring the failures of your ideas and the suffering they create.
I don’t have all the answers, neither do you or Ron Paul or Paul Krugman or Dave Neiwert. What we have is our ability to reason and to observe and to use an honest logic about our motives and our goals. The thing that bothers me the most about libertarian thinkers is not their ideas, it is their arrogant certainty in the absolute righteousness of their ideas and the conviction that anyone who disagrees with them is in on a conspiracy to stop them. It honestly sounds like the same righteousness I used to hear when the Marxist kids use to try to get me to buy the Workers Daily newpaper as I was trying to get on the subway. It’s the same disease.
In the Libertarian model the market just serves the same absolute truthy purpose that the prolitariat does in the Marxist model.
And in a way it’s a cop out, to the reality that surrounds us. Instead of questioning and testing and challenging the things that surround us we force ourselves to obey another theory.
We deserve better.
Wait… WHY did the US go off the gold standard in 1971??? Volatility due to jewelry and industrial uses for gold? Oh my God, the ignorance…
We went off the gold standard with the death of the Bretton Woods agreement because we PRINTED SO MANY PAPER DOLLARS to pay for Vietnam and the Great Society that that the holders of those dollars were only too happy exchange them at the US Treasury for gold at the previously-fixed price.
What was happening to the gold reserve in Ft. Knox before we broke the link to gold and devalued the currency? They were plummeting because foreign central banks awash in our money were only too happy to exchange it for our gold.
… so the question is, where do we go from here?
Northern Observer @ 188
Ok, so instead of attempting to construct a consistent philosophy that governs decision making, the use and abuse of power, etc, we should all just somehow reason together and come up with what amounts to a hodge-podge of ad hoc policy band-aids, with the only consistency being that they all supposedly are “reasonable” and deal with “reality”? If you actually read serious libertarian theorists (von Mises, Rothbard, Hazlitt, etc, etc.), instead of simply looking at their policy recommendations and dismissing them out-of-hand as “unrealistic”, you would realize that theirs is the only attempt to actually deal with reality, instead of attempting to deny reality like the Marxists (and socialists, progressives, neo-conservatives, etc.) As I said before, the libertarians want freedom, most others just want to be the ones controlling the reins of power.
Northern Observer @ 188
I like what you have to say Northern Observer. You have me convinced but then I know nothing about economics. I especially like:
The problem as I see it is it never stays there because there are powerful interests involved. But when have people ever been honest about their motives and goals, especially where money is concerned? Social, political and even religious interests would like to distort “our ability to reason and to observe” for their personal gain.
Barry Day @ 189
Thank you for the historically accurate version.
I’m considered pretty far “left” perhaps, but it is a fact that Bush41 referred to “A new world order” in his innaugural speech. If you look at the results of the Bush dynasty policies in the world, it is clear that there IS something to the the so-called “theory” that is not a “conspiracy theory”.
Ron Paul has a group of loyal followers that patrol Digg. It is very evident not only on Diggs front pages but also in the comments section. Anything unflattering to Ron Paul gets dugg down and or buried quickly. It seems whats needed to deliver your message is organization and follow through.
Oh and no more Texas republicans in the white house.
Looks like this discussion has petered out. Oh well, it was fun while it lasted. The American people need a broader range of public discourse (not demagoguery), in any format possible, so my appreciation to the host and posters of this forum.
I like what you have to say Northern Observer. You have me convinced but then I know nothing about economics. I especially like:
The problem as I see it is it never stays there because there are powerful interests involved. But when have people ever been honest about their motives and goals, especially where money is concerned? Social, political and even religious interests would like to distort “our ability to reason and to observe” for their personal gain.
Your right it is a problem. My reasoning on it has gone from – what is the solution? To this problem has no solution so what do we do about it? And then I asked myself what is the one thing that has always regulated self interest? What is the thing that promotes the private virtue and the public good?
Democracy.
I believe in the people and the ability of the people to rule themselves as they see fit. I know they will make mistakes and that they will lie and be lied to and display all the seven sins; but at the end of the day the cure for all the peoples vices has always been the people themselves. Any action that increases our governments transparency or improves the citizens civic participation I will support, all things that hide from the citizen or relegate decisions to small secret groups I will oppose. We the people. It’s what the country was founded for. (tho many powerful people in America would laugh and disagree)
And I know Democracy can not bring me paradise on earth. It can only bring me what we put into it. But its better than submitting to an ideology or a faith.
Free Acadien @ 191
As I said before, the libertarians want freedom, most others just want to be the ones controlling the reins of power.
1. I have read some of them, otherwise I would never have the patience to answer you because like most libertarians you are formidable in an argument. I’ve read Hayek and the debates between Von Mises and Karl Polanyi.
2. How can you be for freedom and ask men to restrict their freedom to the will of the market? How can you be so confident that the unregulated market will be just? Or as just as is possible for a human society? How can you argue away imperfect competition, oligopoly, rising returns, and other market failure as simply products of government? It just doesn’t seem credible to me, sorry. It accuses men of being swine in government but expects them to achieve virtue through relentless competition? The behavior of the firm refutes this. The firm is monopoly seeking, how will the market stop it? The entire planet would be ruled by 100 corporations within 100 years.
Finally I believe in our history. I believe in the West and the legacy of Athens. Your theory is beautiful but it seems very risky to me.
PS – I want the same thing you do, freedom, where we differ is the tool. I think you can’t achieve it without free government. You think you can’t achieve it with evil government. It’s a tough gap to fill.
syvanen @ 25
What the hell has the democrat party accomplished in the last 70 years? It has fostered an education system that graduates mostly morons from public schools; given us a welfare system that has created a total underclass in our society–slavery under a different name, totally beholden to the master every election date; a social security system that returns 20 cents of every dollar contributed byaworker who has no choice, havingworked for 45 years keeping such a disgusting system afloat;
Or how about a budget system which now allows the Federal Reserve (no more federal that Federal Express) to churn out 5 cent dollars totally destroying the buying power of the poor mugs you bleeding heart democrats profess to love.
Consider the top tier democrat candidates all multi-millionaires; one who gets $400 dollar haircuts and lives in a 30,000 SF house.
Get rich, get guilty and get liberal (with someone else’s money you confiscate at the end of a gun, of course).
To those whom speak of Ron Paul as replacing government functions with corporations whose “sole goal is to make Wall Street happy”:
1) “Cleantech” is now the 3rd highest capital venture investment field, below biotech and information technologies, in that order.
2) The primacy of large corporations is in large part due to the disporportionate costs of smaller businesses in fulfilling tax regulations.
3) Not all libertarians are “free-market” drones. Those of us who recognize the flaws built into a purely market economy also recognize the fact that historically speaking the only viable market/gift economies have existed in wholly liberal cultures.
4) The “goodly” “Dr. No” has no illusions about immediate “marketization” of government; it was precisely this which created the further squalor in the former Soviet republics; further, he is actually quite outspoken against “Corporatism” — which is what we have now, and is also synonymous with “fascism.”
Ron Paul’s greatest flaws can be summarized as so:
A) His ideology is too easily “hijacked” by those with racist agendas.
B) His economic understanding is inherently flawed; there is no means of creating an economic distinction between curiae. All commodities have value due to the same fiat standard, and that’s just that.
C) While his campaign finances have more than quintupled in the last week or two (from $500K remaining out of $600K raised, to anywhere from $2.5M to possibly (but not likely) $5.0M remaining), the fundamental fact of his lack of support amongst the political engine of the right leaves his electoral victory painfully unlikely.
Ron Paul will, I believe, shake up the populist players on both sides of the fence – something our political system sorely needs.
On another point, Firedoglake, more than ever, reads like a DNC fed blog.
The more I read and hear from Ron, the better he sounds to me. The more I read from the people who DONT like Ron Paul, the more I like him. If this is meant to innoculate “progressives” from catching the Ron Paul bug, great. You’ve overdone it of course. You’ll keep progressive sheep in the herd. But to any of you others out there up for some fun: we are staging a take over of the Republican party. The Revolution is on. Hold your noses and come on over for the fun!!!
Northern Observer @ 198
First of all, unlike some libertarians, I am not (at this point) an anarcho-capitalist, but rather what some refer to as a “minarchist”. Perhaps our views on what constitute a “free government” may not be all that different.
Some of the things you mentioned require clarification: the notion of “perfect competition” comes from mainstream economics thought. Mises and those like him reject such a silly notion, and recognize that competition is indeed “imperfect”, that is, no one has perfect information, not everyone is a price taker, etc. Virtue is not to be found either in government or through competition alone. These do not create virtue. A firm may be monopoly seeking, but as long as they seek such monopoly only through providing the best products/services at the lowest prices, who does this hurt? Certainly not the consumer, and the economy as a whole only benefits. While some business owners and their employees may suffer in the short term, this is a necessary reallocation of an inefficient use of resources. I know that sounds cold, but the alternative is worse, i.e. stagnation and decline. If a monopoly firm emerges in a given market because that firm successfully wins the vast majority of customers, then I say, bravo! If they achieve such a monopoly through any form of force or deceit, they ought to be punished by government, because punishes/preventing force and deceit are part of the legitimate role of government. I contend, however, that whatever the government did or didn’t do, the market itself would punish firms who engaged in such practices, because such behavior would be a clarion call for new entrants into that market as the ethical alternative. To wit: companies advertising themselves to be “environmentally friendly” alternatives to their competitors. While price is a big factor in people’s decisions, the success of this approach shows that other factors also play a role in people’s decisions as to which firm to patronize.
Lastly, as to democracy. The Founders of this nation saw democracy as mere “mob rule”, and as such, specifically advocated republicanism (small “r”), with its attendant protections of the natural rights of the individual. These include, most importantly, life, liberty, and yes, property. Governments are formed, according to the Declaration of Independence, to protect these rights, and those governments who seek to do more, or less, are to a greater or lesser degree, evil, regardless of how many voters voted for a given policy.
Thanks for the dialog. I’m glad to see that you’ve read some libertarian theory, but I think more is in order. There are many great thinkers and writers who have tackled many of the issues you’ve brought up. I hope that we, or others, will continue these discussions. America needs it.
From Wikipedia:
In June 2003 Gravel gave a speech on direct democracy at a conference hosted by the American Free Press. The event was cosponsored by the Barnes Review, a journal that endorses Holocaust denial.[10] Gravel has said repeatedly that he does not share such a view, stating “You better believe I know that six million Jews were killed. I’ve been to the Holocaust Museum. I’ve seen the footage of General Eisenhower touring one of the camps. They’re [referring to the Barnes Review, and publisher Willis Carto] nutty as loons if they don’t think it happened”. The newspaper had intended to interview Gravel about the National Initiative. Senator Gravel recounts the background to the event:
“He [Carto] liked the idea of the National Initiative. I figured it was an opportunity to discuss it. Whether it is the far right, far left, whatever, I’ll make my pitch to them. They gave me a free subscription to American Free Press. They still send it to me today. I flip through it sometimes. It has some extreme views, and a lot of the ads in it are even more extreme and make me want to upchuck. Anyways, sometime later, Carto contacted me to speak at that Barnes Review Conference. I had never heard of the Barnes Review, didn’t know anything about it or what they stood for. I was just coming to give a presentation about the National Initiative. I was there maybe 30 minutes. I could tell from the people in the room (mainly some very old men) that they were pretty extreme. I gave my speech, answered some questions and left. I never saw the agenda for the day or listened to any of the other presentations.”[11
In June 2003 Gravel gave a speech on direct democracy at a conference hosted by the American Free Press. The event was cosponsored by the Barnes Review, a journal that endorses Holocaust denial.[10] Gravel has said repeatedly that he does not share such a view, stating “You better believe I know that six million Jews were killed. I’ve been to the Holocaust Museum. I’ve seen the footage of General Eisenhower touring one of the camps. They’re [referring to the Barnes Review, and publisher Willis Carto] nutty as loons if they don’t think it happened”. The newspaper had intended to interview Gravel about the National Initiative. Senator Gravel recounts the background to the event:
“He [Carto] liked the idea of the National Initiative. I figured it was an opportunity to discuss it. Whether it is the far right, far left, whatever, I’ll make my pitch to them. They gave me a free subscription to American Free Press. They still send it to me today. I flip through it sometimes. It has some extreme views, and a lot of the ads in it are even more extreme and make me want to upchuck. Anyways, sometime later, Carto contacted me to speak at that Barnes Review Conference. I had never heard of the Barnes Review, didn’t know anything about it or what they stood for. I was just coming to give a presentation about the National Initiative. I was there maybe 30 minutes. I could tell from the people in the room (mainly some very old men) that they were pretty extreme. I gave my speech, answered some questions and left. I never saw the agenda for the day or listened to any of the other presentations.”
end Wiki-quote
Mike Gravel beat Earnest Gruening in the Democratic primary for the U.S. Senate. He made statements after that which some identified as anti-semitic. As I recall it had to do with being “free from Jewish money,” which was interpreted as a direct reference to a prominant business man who had supported his opponent.
Alaska is a small place, and he could have acquired the reputation without many people knowing the exact underlying evidence, which is what seems to have happened.
Visit the Schapira blog, “What we know so far …“
… and tell ‘em Big Mitch sent ya!
A number of commenters have already brought this up in various ways, but let me add my voiceto the mix. RFon Paul may be a “conspiracy theorist,” but how can any honest person look at what’s happened to this country and this world over the last seveb years and NOT see that there have been wall-to-wall conspiracies going on? Isn’t that the substance of much of what is written on this blog? Now I know the term “conspiracy theory” is supposed to have a special meaning, but what exactly is that meaning? Paul’s particular theories may be simplistic, they may be outmoded, but there sure as hell are some pretty big conspiracies going on, and at this point I think a lot of people are very receptive to somebody who starts from that premise instead of pretending that everything is just fine and the system works, there are just a few isolated bad apples out there.
Second of all, there seems to be a premise that Paul is masquerading as a “progressive.” Or that “progressives” mistakenly assume he is one of them. I don’t see any evidence for either premise. What I would like to see is people stop putting labels on things as a way of a priori stopping all discussion in its tracks.
I know the real fear generated by “conspiracy theory” is that it is really a disguised or maybe not so disguised form of antisemitism. However, the reasoning that “if Jews are NOT behind all conspiracies, then there ARE no conspiracies” seems to me just another way of saying that Jews are the only ones who could be behind conspiracies, which is exactly the premise of antisemitism. The fact is, the ISSUE of antisemitism is indespensible to many conspiracies — either blame it on the Jews, or hide behind the Jews, or both. My own theory of conspiracy is that ultimately, it is sociopaths and psychopaths of all races, colors and creeds that are behind all of them.
I am not a libertarian and I don’t agree with Mr Paul’s economic views, but I do respect the guy.
CONRAD The Dismissive tells us
“Ron Paul’s greatest flaws can be summarized as so:
A) His ideology is too easily “hijacked” by those with racist agendas.”
Exactly backwards. Ron Paul’s ideology is liberty. That is the cure for racism because it makes racism both harmless and unprofitable.
B) His economic understanding is inherently flawed; there is no means of creating an economic distinction between curiae. All commodities have value due to the same fiat standard, and that’s just that.
Foolishly false. (BTW “curiae” means the central administration governing the Roman Catholic Church – perhaps Conrad The Literate meant “specie”, which refers to commodity based money – the opposite of fiat money)
All commodities have value that can be measured BOTH by a fiat standard or by a commodity standard (such as gold). Value is not “due to” the standard any more than lumber has length “due to” the ruler. Economic value is “due to” the desires of traders. Fiat money is merely counterfeiting, which amounts to a lie about the existence of some commodity (such as gold).
“C) While his campaign finances have more than quintupled in the last week or two (from $500K remaining out of $600K raised, to anywhere from $2.5M to possibly (but not likely) $5.0M remaining), the fundamental fact of his lack of support amongst the political engine of the right leaves his electoral victory painfully unlikely.”
Conrad The Statistician here fails to notice the trend as a function of %change over time.
It is dramatic.
Wake up people. It has nothing to do with left wing or right wing.
The only thing that matters is the individual and the inherent inalienable rights.
Everything MUST stem from that or else you get tyranny. The arguments about left being socialism and right being fascism are superfluous. Tyranny is tyrrany period.
The federal government is in direct violation of the constitution in almsot every imaginable way. Ron Paul is the only one who is standing up to the leviathan.
It is We The People vs the Federal government. Stop getting bogged down in the right vs. left nonsense and wake up to the reality.
Apparently y’all have forgotten just what the power of the executive branch is, and what a man of principle can do with it.
When Ron Paul talks about closing down the IRS in 2 weeks of taking the inaugural address, here’s how it’s maybe gonna go.
- Executive order decreeing that all accounts administered by the IRS are immediately frozen and payments into or out of them refused
- Executive order directing the immediate cessation of payment of all IRS-related salaries, expenses and other expenditures
- Executive order directing all Federal executive bodies to expend no resources on and cease all current activity concerning the protection, maintenance or support of IRS facilities, operations, personnel or property
- Executive order directing the immediate termination of all contracts with non-governmental parties providing services to the IRS, including provision for payout of contractual penalties as defined by contract or law
- Executive order immediately ceding United States Government title to all IRS physical (fixed and movable) property in all jurisdictions to the superior jurisdiction in which they lie
- Executive order immediately terminating the employment of all individuals employed by or contracted to the IRS in any capacity, with provision for payment of pensions and contractual penalties as provided by law
- Executive order requiring all US Attorneys and other executive bodies to immediately cease and terminate all judicial and administrative proceedings under Title 26 of the United States Code, and enjoining them from initiating any such proceedings hereafter
All this can be accomplished in the first hour.
It’s a revolution, folks. Get behind it, or get up against the wall.
NOWING (message # 207)
J.R. “BOB” DOBBS (message # 208)
Right on! The fools are reduced to dismissive attitudes, lying about Ron Paul’s positions, and militantly ignoring his rapidly-growing PHILOSOPHICALLY-BASED popularity, which they dismiss with the following frequently-repeated arguments:
a) Ron Paul has very few supporters.
b) His mainstream opponents have very many supporters.
c) His very few supporters are able to out-spam the very many supporters of the mainstream candidates in online polls.
This means that lots of effective internet cheats may be found among that small number of Ron Paul supporters. But few cheats may be found among the vast masses of mainstream supporters.
Ponder the truth of that assumption.
How could a “progressive” support Paul?
George Bush convinced me that the US is too big and too powerful to be let loose. The way he has been able to so easily overturn civil liberties and disreguard the rule of law, makes me thankful he was an idiot rather than someone truly dangerous.
I’m more interested in bio regionalism and local politics than I am with what can be done with a superpower. This has lead me to constitutionalism and greater State independence. I no longer want to throw my lot in with the process. Let the States cooperate through the federal government on border security and some basic trade and civil rights issues. Otherwise, I favor devolving the power back to the States.
As far as the guilt by association and ad hominem foundation of the post… the ACLU often end up defending very unsavory characters. It’s part of freedom and being consistent. You have to stand on principles not just who you think deserves justice.
Uh, none of the positions Mr. Paul takes that you are complaining about fit into “right-wing” and “liberal” categories. Since when does being a progressive/liberal means you support income taxes, a fiat money system run by private bankers who are guaranteed profit from a monopoly on printing money, and federal control over the public education system?
I’m sorry if you’ve taken to equating the words “liberal” or “progressive” to mean someone who tows the Democratic Party line, but the Democratic Party’s stances on issues are just as extreme as the Republicans’. Both the Democrats and Republicans have fascist political ideologies, and do everything they can to maintain the status quo. Democrats are not liberals or progressives.
Well, you really do need to start that education Free Acadien was offering :) nothing could be further from the truth – monopoly, properly understood, is in fact impossible in a free market: it’s only “restraint” (government) that makes monopoly possible.
(By “properly understood” I mean this: the naive definition of “monopoly” (literal translation of the Greek) is that there is only a single seller of a good in the market, but this is actually irrelevant: the effects attributed to “competition”, such as reducing prices, really comes from the possibility of competition, not its actuality – that there is currently only one seller doesn’t matter if competitors are free to enter the market should the excess profits attributable to “monopoly” be available. The only kind of “monopoly” that matters in the market is where competitors are somehow blocked from existing, rather than merely factually not existing – and that can only come about through force; i.e., in unfree (restricted, regulated) markets. The proper definition of “monopoly” has always been in line with this: a “monopoly” was historically a grant of privilege from the King, etc.)
Yeah; terrible that anyone should believe in objective reality. Once people start thinking things like “if I walk over this cliff, I’ll fall”, they’ve taken the first step toward ignoring the failures of their ideas (such as Wile E. Coyote staying in mid-air until he notices he’s not standing on anything, I guess! – here’s a clue: cartoons are not reality!)
Do you? Well, good; put that ability to use. Read Human Action and/or Man, Economy, and State, which explain economics from an indisputably-true base via a series of logical steps, to arrive at what must therefore be an indisputably-true conclusion.
“The thing that bothers me the most about mathematicians is not their ideas, it is their arrogant certainty in the absolute rightness of their (provable!) ideas…”
Let me rephrase: “How can you be for freedom and ask men to restrict their freedom to the will of the demos? How can you be so confident that the unregulated government will be just? Or as just as is possible for a human society?” (especially in light of the historical evidence that it never has been, not to mention the praxeological evidence that it can’t be!)
The answer to your first question is: nobody is asked to restrict their freedom to “the will of the market”. (Where did you get such an idea? What does it even mean?)
If by “fiat” you really mean “subjective”, Dr. Paul would be the first to agree wholeheartedly. But you really mean “fiat”, you’re flat out wrong. “Fiat” means at someone’s command: you’re saying that food is valuable because someone (presumably in government) commanded that it be so. In fact, food is valuable because without it you will suffer and die. The exact value of any particular morsel of food to you depends on your situation – starving on desert island, vs. in the midst of a large feast, for example – but certainly not on “fiat”.
As for the gold standard, and why gold is valuable: money arises in a barter economy as some commodity comes to be seen as useful not for its own good (e.g., not because you want to eat it), but because it’s easy to exchange in future barter events. Thus money must be a commodity (fiat money came about through a bit of clever trickery), and it can’t just be “declared” (by fiat!) that some particular commodity will hereafter “be money” (hence you can’t just decide that, say, platinum will be money instead of gold). It could be any commodity, but there are some obvious attributes that the commodity could have that would make it better for this purpose (e.g., bananas wouldn’t be much good because they rot in a few days). Gold has these attributes in spades. Once a commodity has become money, its original use-value is no longer relevant to its monetary use, so even if it no longer has any use at all qua commodity, it would still maintain value as money – it wouldn’t be valued only through fiat.
A return to the gold standard is somewhat flawed: as I said above, you can’t just decide that platinum will be money – same goes for gold. A “proper” return would be done by a return to pure barter (wrecking the economy) and letting the money-creation-process assert a new commodity money, which may or may not be gold. But now that we have fiat money, the same kind of trickery that led to fiat money could be inverted to return to a commodity money.
Interesting read though it does not in any way effect my endorsement of Dr. Paul.
Ron is a honest and open minded public servant in a sea of corrupt politicians. He speaks his mind, adheres to his principles and can back that up with a 20 year record. Regardless of what his views are this is a recipe for success given the state of affairs currently.
For too long us plebes have been lied to about too many things, as if we didn’t deserve to know the truth. We were not cut of the cloth of the elite and as such we get only scraps.
As noted by other posters some of your information is outdated and false; though removing that would certainly deteriorate your post and argument. Ron Paul supporters generally read as much as they can about the man and already know a great deal of what you speak. Your message will truly only effect those who are easily swayed and by the morrow they will have forgotten your name as a new interest takes rise.
Now in these dire times a man steps forth with the aforementioned qualities and you would denigrate him to achieve what?
To sell a few more books?
To make a name for yourself?
Because your of choice candidate does not enjoy the online success of Dr. Paul?
You then proceed to label those that would strongly endorse him as “true believers” with a connotation that we would drink of the grape flavor-aid if the doctor prescribed it.
Do you not see the value of discussions with the conspiracy theorists? The healthy skepticism that would ensure that no explanation will be excepted at face value. With the history of betrayal and cover-up this government has had and then to think it would not happen again is foolhardy.
Sir, you are entitled to write whatever you wish and we are entitled to dismiss you as a cynical fool out to capitalize on the success of the honorable Dr. Ron Paul. I wish your candidate the best of luck, though it will do little good.
The truth will set us all free
Ron Paul is the savior of this country……..Our biased media and our current corporate controlled politicians will be gone, either by election or by revolt……..This is simply a prophecy by observation……..Just look around……..The people of this country are sick of the way the rich stomp on the backs of the poor……..Look at the way the politicians treat our borders, even after 9/11. Look at the way we impose our beliefs and our government on foreign nations……..All paid for by the poor people of this nation that want no part of it any longer……..It is time that we wake up and realize that we all live inside a lie……..
that was a great history of Ron, i feel like i know him more. Although he seems not to be a threat at all, and he’s one of those candidates who will accept support from ANYONE. he reminds me of gravel a bit, some people would want them to go against each other. not gonna happen!
“James says: “Ron is a honest and open minded public servant in a sea of corrupt politicians.”
He is also a House member.
ONE, count ‘em, ONE House member in US history became President, and that after 36 ballots at the convention.
So, James, THE QUESTION REALLY IS, who are you going to vote for in November 08, after Rep. Ron Paul loses the primary?
Huckabee? Giuliani? Thompson?
Your vote for ANY Republican would show that the ’sea of corruption’ doesn’t, after all, bother you as much as you say.
On the other hand, the Democrats, who are clearly less corrupt than Republicans. But then you would have to ADMIT that your vote isn’t about corruption — it’s IDEOLOGY masquerading as honesty.
Which is Ron Paul all the way.
Yeah its mud thrwoing by association.
like take your Fiat vs gold point
You point to someone who is very radical and then associated a commodity based currency with radicals, when you ignore the history of Austrian economists who have always warned about the danger of a fiat currency.
There is a who branch of economics devoted to commodity based currencies but thats ignored.
then you try the racist slur again by association
then multi culturism , without reflecting on the limitations and pressures it places on society, yes every culture deserves to be respected but that includes the American culture.
Just because Paul has nut case supporters does not mean that he must answer for all of their opinions, Soros supports Wes Clark, now I like some of Soros’s views and I dont like others, it doesn’t mean that Wes Clark needs to answer them.
We all agree that we need to maintain cultural and social integrity, we might disagree on how to do that and the systematic appraoch that is required, but lets respect the diversity of views and lets stop trying to destroy anyone that holds a different view by any means.
You article smacks of using any means to achieve you ends, you obviously disagree with many of his ideas, thats ok you might be right on many issues, he might also be right on many as well.
Its about respect and integrity, attack the idea not the man.
Paul has more than enough policies where you can mount a strong contrary opinion. Health Care, Abortion, Drugs, United Nations, Border Security etc
Have the confidence to just attack the policy, do not through fear that you might not win try and slur him. Yes he represents a threat to many hard own policies , the only way to defend these policies is through advocacy of those ideas.
You whole line seems to be elitist in that you seem to reflect and underlying fear that he will become popular, the sub text being that the people might be dumb enough to adopt those policies and that we need to protect the people because they might believe his ideas, the premise is that the people cant work what they think for themselves, they may make the wrong decisions in your mind
(I mean that if you CAN’T vote for a Democrat, then you would be admitting that your choice is really ideology-based, and not about ‘honesty’).
“Its about respect and integrity, attack the idea not the man.”
His association with rightwing extremist groups tells you everything about the man AND his ideas.
If you have a digg account go there and digg the article. It needs to be read by as many people as possible and Paul’s believers are there downgrading the article and Neiwert
“In the time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act” GEORGE ORWELL
If Molly Ivins did not like him…good enough for me!
David,
By ignoring the elephant in the room, you completely miss the point of Paul’s appeal.
By far the most pressing issues of our time are foreign policy and government accountability. When 70% of Americans are opposed to the Iraq war, why are you surprised then that anti-war candidates would attract attention? Of the all the Republican and Democratic candidates, Paul and Gravel are the only two that have ruled out a nuclear strike against Iran. What would otherwise be considered an extreme position has become accepted by the mainstream of politics, so in spite of the fact that there is not a shred of evidence of Iran pursuing nuclear weapons, anyone that challenges this strategy has been marginalized as extreme.
Secondly, Sara’s arguments regarding Barbara Jordan have been debunked, and along with the attack in the Daily Kos, are most laughable of all, both are demanding that Paul be held to standards that would make a destroy any of the presidential candidates running for 2008.
Thirdly, whatever you think of Paul’s domestic policies, what appeals to the right and the left is his stance of limited government and personal freedoms. He has stated that decision regarding domestic policies are to be made at the local level of government, as opposed to being enforced by Washington.
Finally, the public is sick to the stomach over the influence that lobbyists are having on the country’s policies. Whatever you think of Gravel and Paul, they are the only candidates that have not sold out to the Lockheed Martins and A*PAC’s of this world.