[Please join me in welcoming Caroline Frederickson of the ACLU to FDL. As with all chats, please keep your comments on topic and be polite. Any off-topic discussion should be taken to the prior thread. Thanks! -- CHS]
It was at the point where the Attorney General of the United States had the audacity to say to Congress that the United States Constitution does not guarantee the right of habeas corpus to citizens of this country that I knew the Military Commissions Act was going to be fought for with every last dirty trick in the Bush Administration’s arsenal. That he would make such a brazenly false statement was appalling enough, but that he would do so to the Senate Judiciary Committee was outright heresy.
Today, the Senate Judiciary Committee — in an 11 to 8 vote , with Senator Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania being the lone Republican to vote for S.185 – began the steps needed to restore habeas corpus protections to those that the United States holds as prisoners, “unlawful enemy combatants” or not.
It is a necessary first step toward restoring what we ought to be as a nation.
Today, we are lucky to have a special guest who has been on the forefront of the battle to restore full habeas rights, to discuss these issues with us. Caroline Frederickson is the chief legislative liaison for the ACLU, and has worked with members of Congress on both sides of the aisle, as well as concerned citizens of all political stripes, to restore the honor and integrity to our treatment of those in our custody by restoring the right to petition a court for clarification on why someone is being held without charges being brought, among many other issues.
This has been a sore spot since the passage of the MCA — and, honestly, well before then — and the work that the ACLU and other organizations have done on this issue has been instrumental in increasing Congressional muscle on this issue. But the ACLU cannot do this alone — and Caroline is here today to discuss not just the issues behind habeas rights, but also what you can do to help.
Why should you worry about this, when you aren’t some prisoner picked up and held in Guantanamo? A lot of reasons:
“This is the key protection that people have if they’re held in violation of the law,” said Erwin Chemerinsky, a Duke University law professor who has criticized the administration’s actions on civil liberties. “If there’s no habeas corpus, and if the government wants to pick you or me off the street and hold us indefinitely, how do we get our release?”Chemerinsky was joined by Douglas Kmiec, a Pepperdine University law professor and former Justice Department official under Presidents Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush.
If Gonzales’ view prevailed, Kmiec said, “one of the basic protections of human liberty against the powers of the state would be embarrassingly absent from our constitutional system.”
Justice Department spokesman Brian Roehrkasse said this week that Gonzales stood by his remarks but was asserting only that the text of the Constitution does not guarantee habeas corpus. The attorney general recognizes, Roehrkasse said, that the Supreme Court has declared “the Constitution protects (habeas corpus) as it existed at common law” in England. Any such rights, he added, would not apply to foreigners held as enemy combatants.
Habeas corpus was recognized in English law at least as early as the Magna Carta, in 1215, and perhaps earlier. In the United States, it refers to bringing a prisoner’s case before a federal judge, who has the power to order the government to release anyone who is being held illegally.
It has become an issue in Bush’s efforts to hold military captives at the U.S. naval base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, with little or no access to civilian courts. The Supreme Court ruled in 2004 that that those prisoners could file habeas corpus claims in court, rejecting the administration’s argument that inmates held outside the United States had no such right. That ruling was based on the court’s interpretation of laws passed by Congress and did not discuss whether Guantanamo inmates had a constitutional right to habeas corpus.
The distinction is potentially crucial, because Congress, in the law signed last October, prohibited federal courts from reviewing habeas corpus suits by Guantanamo prisoners or any other noncitizens held as enemy combatants. The law’s validity depends on whether the Supreme Court concludes that the prisoners’ constitutional rights are being violated.
We are better than this as a nation. We either stand up for those ideals that our forefathers risked their lives to obtain for all of us – the right of habeas corpus being so dear to them that they enshrined it in the text of the Constitution itself, rather than leaving it to the Bill of Rights. Or we stand for nothing at all but whatever is expedient in the moment according to the whim of the imperial presidency.
Make no mistake, what the Bush Administration and its Attorney General are proposing under the fearful guise of a never-ending national security emergency is to collapse the three branches of government into one all-powerful executive during a time of self-declared, non-ending war of their own making.
I choose liberty. What say you?
And with that, I welcome Caroline to FDL. And open the floor to questions and comments. Welcome, Caroline!
_______________________
– For a fairly thorough overview of habeas basics, I recommend this post. And also this one – be sure to click through to Glenn’s superb post as well.
More significantly, whether a country permits its political leaders to imprison people arbitrarily and with no process is one of the few defining attributes dividing free and civilized countries from lawless tyrannies. Or, as Thomas Jefferson put it in his 1789 letter to Thomas Paine: “I consider [trial by jury] as the only anchor ever yet imagined by man, by which a government can be held to the principles of its constitution.” To vest the President with the power to imprison people indefinitely with no charges is fundamentally to transform the type of country we are.
– For a personal appeal as to why restoration is necessary, I recommend this one.
– Ari Melber has a piece on the Senate vote today on HuffPo. As does Sen. Chris Dodd – his piece is great, so do take some time to read it for some wonderful perspective on the contrasts between the leadership of yesterday and the Bush Administration’s abject failures.
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Oh Good!
Just in time.
Hey Busted — yep, plenty of time. Looking forward to this discussion today. And what we can do to help with the push in the Senate and House on this legislation, among lots of other things to do.
Restoring habeas corpus is the the absolute minimum prerequisite to getting back on a path toward the rule of law in the United States.
Thank you so much for having me on firedoglake — I’m so thrilled you are spreading the word about the importance of restoring habeas. I think few people were really aware that Congress stripped habeas from the Guantanamo detainees right before the elections last year. You’ve laid out many of the reasons habeaes is such a vital part of our legal framework, of any legal system founded on rule of law, as well as the history of habeas. I would encourage people who are looking for more information, or who want to join us in DC in join to demand restoration of habeas to go juneaction.org
janinsanfran @ 3
Amen.
janinsanfran @ 3
spurious @ 5
This is so true. That’s why we need to insist that Congress fix the mess it’s created.
I feel that when Abu said that there is no inherent guarantee in the constitution for Habeus
that it was treason.
Nothing can come close to destroying our freedom and liberties as his view.
It effectively nullified the bill of rights.
Has there been any Congressional action to undo MCA?
It’s in the Bushies’ own interest to have habeas restored. Many more of them may soon need to invoke it.
Thank you Christy! Thank you Ms Fredrickson!
As Christy requested yesterday, I contacted both of my senators (Cornyn and Hutchison) and requested that they co-sponsor and vote for the Habeas Corpus Restoration Act.
After this morning’s vote, I called Cornyn’s office once again. I told the staffer who answered that as a constituent, it was quite distressing to see that my senator was voting against the desires of his constituents and the Habeas Restoration. After providing my zip for the staffer, I ended by saying that since Habeas had been a part of English common law since the Magna Carta and was a part of the Constitution, it was distressing to know that my senator was anti-American.
I’m not holding my breath on Cornyn actually getting and understanding the message.
Caroline at 4 – So glad that you could join us today. For those who missed it, we had one of Caroline’s colleagues — Anthony Romero — on for a recent book salon and it was a fantastic chat. Looking forward to another great one here today.
Thank you for visiting the Lake Caroline. The most basic tenet of our democracy is being treated as a partisan volleyball. I called Senator Specter yesterday & encouraged his efforts on this bill, but am sad to hear that he was the only Repub to vote for S185.
How can we bridge the divide on on this issue?
Caroline,
Welcome to the Lake!
Is this Senator Dodd’s bill?
Bob in HI
Indeed, just today, the Senate Judiciary Commitee passed legislation to fix the part of the MCA that stripped habeas. We expect Senators Leahy and Specter to offer their bill as an amendment to another piece of legislation sometime this summer, as early as this June.
The House Judiciary Committee will also hold a hearing in June on habeas and probably pass a bill out of committee. We expect a House vote as well this summer.
There are also several other bills that would address the MCA — the Restoring the Constitution Act sponsored by Senator Dodd and Representatives Nadler and Harman would actually fix the entire MCA.
Bob at 14 — That’s a great question. I’ve been trying to find time today to do a point-by-point comparison between S.185 (which was written by Specter) and the prior one that Dodd had written. I liked the Dodd bill a lot, and am wonderinghow much of it was incorporated into the current proposal in the mark-up — I had heard that Dodd’s provisions were going to be included for the most part. But I haven’t had the time yet to do the comparison. Woudllove to kno what Caroline thinks of the current version in relation to Dodd’s prior proposal.
This is truly chilling. And they would not do this if they thought they ran any risk of losing the presidency.
Hello Ms Federickson, thank you for coming
and thank you Christy
Caroline — On of the big qustions that we get asked a lot by readers is what they can do – and ought to be doing — to help with this. Any suggestions that you have on this would be most welcome.
Bob Schacht @ 14
Bob – Christy and Caroline already answered your question, but you can also read the bill language, status, etc. here.
[Mods: the “Military Commissions Act” link is broken]
Christy, Dodd’s bill includes habeas restoration but also fixes other provisions of the MCA including the definition of enemy combatant, coerced evidence, and other horrendous provisions. It’s a very comprehensive bill. Habeas, however, is the only piece that is actually in the Judiciary Committee and that’s why Leahy and Specter have focused on it — it’s their committee and they knew they could move the issue forward. We’re still working to move the other provisions in the Dodd bill.
Good Afternoon Everyone!
Thanks so much to everyone here at FDL for hosting this forum. I have been fortunate in the past several years to live in Vermont and I have had the opportunity to speak with Senator Leahy here at a town meeting. I also called to show my support for S185 this week. It is vital as a first step towards reclaiming the rights we have under the Constitution. As so many others here, I was outraged when habeaus was stripped last fall. Thank you Caroline for coming in to the Lake today to visit with us!
Elliott — Try this link. Will fix it in the post above — thanks for the heads up.
Habeas corpus, government sponsored wiretapping, illegal rendition, condoning torture, ignoring the Geneva Conventions, consistant lies to Congress, lies to Federal prosectutors, etc… . I appreciate the work of the ACLU to drain the swamp. Starting with Habeas is smart as the lack of that protection seems to shock most Americans, not John Yoo or Gonzo however.
I have a nephew now in theater in Iraq so some of this i have great personal concerns about. We have to get back to as much a moral position as possible to have credibility in the world again.
Several of you have asked what you can do. Some of you are already doing something vital, communicating with your Members of Congress that the MCA is highly flawed, that it needs fixing and that they need to move the bills forward that do that. But we’d also love to see you in Washington DC on June 26 for our day of action — see juneaction.org for more details. I think we’ve got a lot of Members of Congress who are on are side but it’s our job to make them understand that this is something they actually need to take action on. It’s not enough to agree that the MCA is highly flawed. They actually have to do something.
Cannot the Supreme Court rule that the Patriot Act is unconstitutional? And is the Supreme court disposed to reaffirming habeas corpus?
Thank you Caroline and Christy for all your work keeping this issue front and center (and Left of course).
Aloha, Caroline, welcome to the Lake! Who was most responsible for Abu G’s appraisal that Habeas was not an inherent right? Was it Yoo, Bebe, or Abu himself, that utilized the torured reasoning behind that ‘legal’ assertion? I don’t think Abu was the author!!! Any ideas???
Thank you for being here, Caroline.
Pathfinder at 23, you should know that Senator Leahy and Senator Sanders have both agreed to speak to the activists who come to our Day of Action to Restore Law and Justice. They both understand how vital it is to address the flaws in the MCA and as AZ Matt says to address the USA’s reputation in the world.
http://juneaction.org
One of the glaringly unconstitutional provisions of MCA I noted at the outset when they passed this POS was the text according the President final authority with respect to interpretation of the meaning and applicability of the Geneva Conventions, an authority explictly vested in the judiciary by the Constitution.
Thank you for your work Caroline!
just lurking today as its legal chat -but i will be paying attention here as civil liberties seem to be disappearing at least in my mind – thank god for FDL and glenn greenwald’s sites… welcome caroline to the lake :)
I also urge you to check out our habeas petition. Nearly 70,000 people have signed so far, just in the short time we’ve had it up.
ETA: We’re delivering them during the June 26 Day of Action.
Caroline,
Thank you so much for all of your hard work for the good of our country. Was the ACLU responsible for the giant floating pig with the words “Habeas Corpus” on it that I saw at a concert?
CTuttle at 29, I have to say that was a mystifying moment. Colbert made a great piece about it. For those of you who didn’t see it, Gonzales said in front of the Senate Judiciary Committee back in the spring that our Constitution doesn’t protect habeas because it only says that “the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended.” No really. He did say that. I’m not sure who the creative legal theorist was behind that formulation.
Caroline — I think BobbyG brings up a great point at 33 with regard to the Geneva Conventions and how that intersects with the MCA. Could you expand a bit on that particular aspect for everyone — we’ve talked about treaty and legal obligations quite a bit, but it is worth a little clarification for everyone on just how unprecedented the scope fo the MCA’s backward reach really was in terms of the long-standing work the US has done over years and years of diplomacy to move huamn rights forward…until now.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 24
almost Christy! :) I think this is it S 185 habeas
Does the ACLU anticipate becoming involved in any of these cases?
A coalition of human rights groups has drawn up a list of 39 terror suspects it believes are being secretly imprisoned by U.S. authorities and published their names in a report released Thursday.
Information about the so-called “ghost detainees” was gleaned from interviews with former prisoners and officials in the U.S., Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Yemen, according to Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and four other groups.
Caroline at 38 — If I had to guess, I’d say David Addington in Vice Predient Cheneys office or one of his many acolytes.
Thanks to everyone for your kind welcome! This feels like home! And to Loo Hoo at 37, I don’t think the ACLU can claim credit for a floating pig but we do have a little green man, named Mr. Habeas Corpus who you can see at findhabeas.org — he’s lost and needs to be found. It’s a cute site with a wealth of info about habeas.
BobbyG at 33 is quite right to point out that the MCA also gave the president (yes that one!) the ability to determine essentially what is torture — that is, what are our obligations under the Geneva Conventions and what is a punishable violation. And we know that anything short of death doesn’t constitute torture for this administration so that’s a very scary part of the law.
Caroline –
thank you for being here!
a few were discussing yesterday the specter bill that passed the SJC this morning vs the last year’s dodd bill to “fix” the MCA (including habeas corpus).
dodd’s bill looks MUCH better, so i was wondering why the push for specter’s bill? do you think specter’s bill has a better chance of getting passed and not vetoed?
i guess i’m interested in understanding the strategic (as well as tactical) thinking on how to recover from the MCA and DTA?
Christy, thanks for the link to Senator Dodd’s Huffington Post op-ed.
Caroline Fredrickson @ 22
Caroline, thanks for joining FDL today and helping people understand what’s going on in the efforts to restore the Constitution.
People can help Senator Dodd get the Armed Services committee to vote on the Restoring the Constitution Act. Also, please become a citizen co-sponsor of the RCA at http://restore-habeas.org
Disclosure: I proudly work for Senator Chris Dodd’s presidential campaign.
In my view, all of this revisionist, legally tortured thinking first saw daylight when The Dept. of Homeland Security was envisioned and brought forth straight out of hell.
selise at 44 — Caroline hit a bit on that here. Take a peek and see if that makes sense — since Leahy and Specter had the votes on Judiciary on this, they carved out habeas alone as a start, but work on Dodd’s bill continues at this point.
Selise at 44
You are absolutely right. I discuss both bills in some greater detail above and it’s very true that Dodd’s bill is more comprehensive and includes the habeas fix. We are pushing both bills because we think we’re on stronger ground. At the ACLU we’ve been working hard to build cosponsorship for both bills. There is some greater likelihood of getting a simple habeas fix, in part because that bill goes to the Armed Services Committee which is less likely to take it up or pass it out of committee than Senate Judiciary with habeas.
Hi Rachel and welcome!
“36
Rachel says
June 7th, 2007 at 12:26 pm
I also urge you to check out our habeas petition. Nearly 70,000 people have signed so far, just in the short time we’ve had it up.
ETA: We’re delivering them during the June 26 Day of Action.”
Just signed it, thanks. (I’ve signed so many of these since Bush that I had to see the page to know if I had already signed it. Geez.)
Hi Caroline,
Thank you for fighting the good fight. Chris Dodd is my senator (My only senator as far as I am concerned.)
I remember reading that Gonzales/BushCo and friends claimed that they have legal precendent in suspension of habeus corpus (Civil War.) What’s the quickest way you rebut this and other misperceptions that people may have?
Welcome Caroline and Rachel. Thanks for being here.
What do you see as the biggest obstacle (other than institutionalized wingnuttery) to the restoration of habeas? To elaborate on what Christy said earlier, are there weak spots within the opposition that can be targeted?
Matt Browner-Hamlin 45 — just thinking that the Dodd folks ought to be here chatting. Senator Dodd has done great work on this, we really appreciate him taking the lead and he deserves much kudos for it.
Ms. Frederickson:
Thanks for being here. What do I say to my two senators, Menendez and Lautenberg, who both voted for the Military Commissions Act? I understand that Menendez felt he needed to vote for the bill to protect himself from charges of being soft on terrorism in a combative election campaign in 2006, but Lautenberg had no good reason. Now Lautenberg is listed as a cosponsor of S.185. I’m not sure that makes up for what happened last fall.
Rachel @ 36
Done!
Christy Hardin Smith @ 47 and Caroline Fredrickson @ 48 –
thanks! i was still typing my question while it was already being answered!
Also, Caroline, for those of us who may not be able to make it to D.C., any plans to plan protests state by state?
Jane Hamsher @ 52
This is why I’m glad he’s running and I am glad for the Ned Lamont association. Sometimes a senator needs a fire lit under the arse so to speak.
njprogressive @ 53
I had the same issue with Stabenow as you had with Menendez. Levin voted against it and has signed on to the new bill, but I don’t see Stabenow’s name anywhere. She promised she’d make good on her bad vote down the road. I’d like to see her sign on to this as a co-sponsor.
Caroline Fredrickson @ 48
Just trying to be clear, Specters bill (restore Habeas Corpus only) or Dodds would have to go through the armed services committee?
Also, do you think the armed services committee may be a little more willing to face this mistake (MCA) and repair now due to the recent court decision to toss illegal combatants charges out?
Jane Hamsher @ 52
Glad to be here – the timing of today’s discussion fits great for both what is going on in our efforts to get people talking about about the need to restore the Constitution and what’s going on with today’s success in the Judiciary Committee.
you know, just calling it habeaus corpus is not good enough, as I always say, this must be framed correctly
we need to say;
“who thinks a person should be able to make up any law they in their own head so they can justify putting people in jail that never ever committed any crime nor would”
“who thinks a person should never be able to prove they didn’t do what some idiot claims they did?”
“who thinks a person charged with a crime some fool made up in their own head should never be able to see the evidence these fools claim they have?”
things like this guys, we need to frame this in practical terms
Matt Browner Hamlin @ 45
i guess this might be a good test of senator clinton’s leadership. *g*
mui @ 56
Varies by state, but stay tuned to… wait for it… http://www.juneaction.org for more information. :) There are activities being planned in a number of states.
Also, I can’t stress the importance of picking up the phone and/or emailing your member of Congress and urging them to restore habeas.
Mui at 50,
That’s a canard when people say that. Here I’m quoting a publication from the Brennan Center but it states it quite nicely: “Habeas corpus has been suspended only on the rarest of occasions in American history and only temporarily. It was suspended twice during the Civil War, at a time when Washington, D.C. was surrounded by Confederate Virginia to the west and mobs in Maryland threatened to cut off supplies and troops to the capitol. It was also suspended after the Civil War when armed insurrectionists made it impossible for courts to function in the South; decades later, in the early 1900s, during an armed rebellion in the Philippines; and one final time in 1941 in Hawaii, immediately after Pearl Harbor. Each time, Congress responded to a present and immediate emergency. Each time, Congress specifically limited suspension to the duration of the emergency that necessitated it. And, each time, Congress made a determination that the public safety required suspension of this most fundamental right. In short, habeas is at the core of America’s laws and Constitution. It has rarely been suspended, and then only in the fact of an active, outright insurrection.”
S3930 / MCA
SEC. 5. TREATY OBLIGATIONS NOT ESTABLISHING GROUNDS FOR CERTAIN CLAIMS.
(a) In General- No person may invoke the Geneva Conventions or any protocols thereto in any habeas corpus or other civil action or proceeding to which the United States, or a current or former officer, employee, member of the Armed Forces, or other agent of the United States is a party as a source of rights in any court of the United States or its States or territories…
SEC. 6. IMPLEMENTATION OF TREATY OBLIGATIONS.
(a) Implementation of Treaty Obligations-…
(3) INTERPRETATION BY THE PRESIDENT-
(A) As provided by the Constitution and by this section, the President has the authority for the United States to interpret the meaning and application of the Geneva Conventions and to promulgate higher standards and administrative regulations for violations of treaty obligations which are not grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions…
___
US Constitution:
Article III…
…Section 2. The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under this Constitution, the laws of the United States, and treaties made, or which shall be made, under their authority…
Emphases mine.
Matt at 45
Working for Dodd is a thing to be proud of! :)
Making a link for Caroline:
http://findhabeas.org
“The Habeas Corpus secures every man here, alien or citizen, against everything which is not law, whatever shape it may assume.” –Thomas Jefferson to A. H. Rowan, 1798.
I think the Founders with their experience with the British Crown had an excellent idea of what could happen to them if caught during the Revolution. I think this is one of the reasons why a man like Jefferson felt that protections under law are important. I doubt if he would be happy with MCA.
The administration hides behind national security and has used it to justify damn near everything they have done. The Congress when they finish what ever revisions are necessary to the MCA, should force the administration to show them the basis of security claims. I think if that happens there would be less abuse of the system.
Ms. Frederickson,
Just stopping by to thank you and the ACLU. Never has your organization been as important as it is today. I’m sure it will be even more important tomorrow. They’re going to have to pry my ACLU membership from my cold, dead hands!
We can’t thank you enough.
Caroline Fredrickson @ 38
For one to argue that the Writ is not a right, per se, is a very tenuous one, and stretches logic to the breaking point!!! It is sheer parsing of words, on a par with Clinton’s ‘Is’ definition!
In my town of many temples, many churches and a mosque we have a group of religious leaders and active congregants who meet to promote peace and understanding.
It was these people who had to demonstrate in front of the federal building where the leader of the mosque and his son were picked up while renewing their passports. They were afforded no rights, no visits from family etc. GONE.
Because the town knew these people for so many years, working together to promote harmony, the demonstration/pressure forced their release.
Eureka Springs at 49
The Leahy/Specter habeas bill passed out of Judiciary Committee today! Hooray!
The Dodd bill has to go through Armed Services — we’re working to move that as well. We’ve got a bit of a tougher row to hoe on that committee simply because on Judiciary we have one Republican, Specter, who voted with the Dems. On Armed Services, we’re still working on that.
Another founding father quote: In the Federalist Papers, Alexander Hamilton called habeas a “bulwark” of individual liberty and secret imprisonment the most “dangerous engine of arbitrary government.”
Caroline at 71 — I would imagine, given the membership of Armed Services and with Warner having been an MCA sponsor, that it would be a much tougher road to passage for the Dodd bill.
Caroline Fredrickson @ 38
Ms. Frederickson,
From a proud ACLUer, welcome to FDL and thanks for taking the time to be here. I hadn’t seen this comment by our AG. It almost makes me wish that I believed in capital punishment, because he certainly deserves it!
However, I’m more interested in your answer to Jane’s question. What weak points do you see on the “other side”?
(sorry I can’t stay around for long, but I’ll check back later)
In Mark Danner’s recent commencement address to the UC Berkeley Dept. of Rhetoric, he said this:
Beyond simply winning this battle over the MCA, I think law-respecting Americans have to realize this is going to be a looooong fight against deeply entrenched extremists in the government.
I applaud the ACLU and you Caroline for working so hard for us all.
This is a real honor, Caroline, I was recently elected to the board of our local ACLU chapter and look forward to getting even more involved; and I really want to say thanks for blogging here!
If anyone would like to hear a great overview of what the MCA does, my friend Dave explained what it amounts to in this youtube.
More info from Amnesty International
Thanks Caroline,
Senate Armed Services Committee Members list here.
My D for disasterous senator Mark Pryor is on that committee.. He voted with
HitlerBush all the way last year. We in AR will never let him forget it!Christy at 72 — exactly. The Republicans who might be most sympathetic are pretty wedded to MCA since they are the ones who made the deal with the devil, I mean the White House. The original committee bill on MCA was far better than what the Senate ended up passing.
Jane,
I think the weak spot is that Americans actually get this one — basic due process, the right to know why you’re being held. It’s so fundamental. So we actually have a very broad spectrum of people on our side. As far as targetting, we’re particularly focusing on those Members of Congress who are seen as moderate. We’re working to get their friends, neighbors and family members to call them, write them, stop them on the street. We’re working with former military and intelligence officials who understand why we need basic due process in order to ensure our troops and other Americans get the same when they’re in other parts of the world. We’re working with conservatives, religious leaders, and others to make it clear: this is not a partisan issue. This is a fundamental aspect of a legal system built on rule of law.
My current worry is that if Either; the Dodd and/or the Specter/Leahey bills, reaches Shrub’s Desk, what’s to prevent a ‘Signing Statement’ from effectively gutting the Bill(s) intent???
PeterK @ 73
Specter, Sununu, and Smith have always voted the right way on habeas. But it would be also helpful to reach Collins, Snowe, Hagel, Coleman, Warner, and McCain.
Caroline,
Right now, the Senate Judiciary Committee is holding a hearing on voter suppression tactics (they just recessed as I was writing this.)
Is this something the ACLU is also working on?
Bob in HI
Elliott @ 54
Matt Browner Hamlin @ 45
and was the one reading the questions during Senator Dodd’s recent vlogging here at FDL. thanks Matt!
Caroline, thanks so much for all your work. I get you emails and enjoy them. Your being here was a reminder that I have to send in this year’s membership dues. I joined ACLU last year almost exclusively because of prodding from Jane, Christy, and emptywheel.
Caroline -
do you think specter’s bill will be vetoed by president bush (if it gets through congress)?
Rachel @ 80
Thanks, I’ll go after Collins, I’m a constituent (and she’s been taking a lot of heat lately, tho mainly re Iraq).
Audrey @ 32
No bus from CA! :~)
We need a crisp, plain-English synonym for habeas corpus. People glaze over at the sight of Latin, especially for a term whose meaning is as circuitous as that for habeas: “produce the body” simply does not translate, without coaching, to “the right to challenge the legal basis of an imprisonment.”
On a multiple-choice quiz, how many Americans would guess that habeas corpus means “the need to produce a corpse before prosecuting a homicide”?
So how to crispify? “The right to petition” is too broad and reminiscent of the phrase in the First Amendment about petitioning the government for redress. “Protection against unjustified detention” comes closer but still falls untrippingly from the tongue.
A crisp, plain-English catchphrase, universally adopted, would add greatly to popular support for preserving habeas. (Recall the mileage the anti-choicers got out of “partial-birth abortion”? Habeas needs and deserves something that strong.)
Bob at 81,
yes we are definitely working on voter suppression issues — we have a Voting Rights Project that litigates these cases as well as many other voting cases.
ralphbon @ 88
As a start, how about “the right to know why you are being detained” (not exactly correct, and perhaps a bit long, but maybe someone can edit more)
Caroline Fredrickson @ 64
I didn’t know that it was suspended with a time limitation. we are in trouble then. I’ve seen the Lincoln canard stated over and over by the likes of Hannity. What a disservice they do to the American public.
And thanks Rachel @63 for the action info.
I think Lieberman is hopeless though.
ralphbon at 88 — I think Caroline summed it up as “due process” earlier, and that’s a good, succinct description. Or how about: “what if the government could make you disappear, and you had no right to ask them why?”
spurious @ 87
or arkansas :(
selise @ 85
If dub vetoes this bill, can the ACLU proceed with a appeal to the SCOTUS? I don’t know the procedures but this has to be pursued past GWB
hey folks, sorry I have to sign off. I have to run up to the Hill to talk to staff about NSA surveillance. So much to do, so little time!
Thank you all for this wonderful conversation and keep up the good fight!
Eureka Springs @ 93
Maybe we need to organize a Freedom Bus!
Caroline Fredrickson @ 89
I’d love to see you here for other discussions like this and other ACLU issues (like the DHS “no-work list” the immigration bill would authorize).
Christy Hardin Smith @ 92
or something like “they can lock you up and throw away the key.”
ralphbon at 88 – what Christy said. I would add that in our research we’ve found that people react really positively to “due process.” Even people who couldn’t tell you exactly what it means, they know it’s important and that they strongly support it as a core American value.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 92
The thing is that due process includes a lot of other rights, I believe, and they can always claim that most of it remains even without HC. I like your second suggestion–how about “imprisonment with no reason given”
(I’m just fishing around, of course…)
Caroline at 95 — Thank you so much for your time on this issue today. Looking forward to much more work on this in the days ahead! And a huge thanks to Rachel for helping setthis upfor today — thanks, Rachel!
spurious and Eureka Springs:
See Rachel at 63 about various state by state info.
Caroline Fredrickson @ 95
Thanks very much Caroline for visiting us here.
Another try: “imprisonment, never mind why”
Rachel @ 36
Thank you, as well, for you work Rachel.
Christy – Thank you for this post! It was informative for me.
Audrey @ 102
Thanks, Audry!
Thank you for taking the time to answer our questions, Caroline. Feel free to drop by whenever. :)
Sonoma Rus @ 94
You can’t appeal a legislative-executive matter, it is outside the purview of the Judiciary! However, my concern is Shrub signing it, and attaching an infamous ’signing’ statement, essentially gutting the legislative intent!!!
AZ Matt at 106 — You are most welcome. And I’m so thrilled that Caroline could be here today to talk legislative particulars. The ACLU has really been helping to push this — and several other rights issues, including NSA and other civil liberties matters — and they deserve our thanks for it. Far too few people were standing up when it really mattered on these issues the last six years. And I am most grateful to them for standing when so many other folks turned away.
Caroline Fredrickson @ 89
Thanks! I assume, then, that “caging” is also on your “to fix” list. This is really important, because voter suppression is a major tactic of the Malek/Rove manual on turning the Federal government permanently into an arm of the Republican Party.
Bob in HI
Christy Hardin Smith @ 110
Small wonder, why the Repugs so despise the ACLU!!!
I know some states are still working on organizing their people to come down for June 26. My suggestion is just to contact your affiliate and let them know you’re interested in coming. They may still be in the process of getting a bus, gauging interest, etc.
I gotta sign off too. Thanks again, Christy and Jane. You’re rock stars. (Sorry I missed you in DC the other night, Jane.)
PeterK @ 90
Hmmm. How about “No detention without representation”? Will that work?
Bob in HI
This has been a wonderful thread which I have been following while watching the NASA IG hearings in the Senate on c-span (more heck-of-a-job Bushie malfeasance).
But I am really grateful that FDL has highlighted this essential issue of the rights to habeas corpus.
Your being here was really important Caroline and Rachel, thank you for getting this information out there.
Kinda tangential
Any California people want to get involved locally? Contact your State Senator to support SB 1019 and your Assemblyperson to support AB 1648
Legislation to Restore Civilian Oversight of Police Agencies
Christy and Jane,
I just love that Caroline said it feels like home here. It’s how most of us feel. That’s so reflective of the wonderful work you do.
Kudos!! And Thank you!
And
You’re very welcome. :)
Boston1775 @ 70
I totally missed that. How wonderful, as is Mayor DeSteppano and the city of New Haven, CT.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 110
Just made a donation for the June Action in DC. Anything to make Bush’s life more difficult.
Christy, did you read Victoria’s Please Pardon Scooter op-ed in the USA Today? Same old stuff with that person. You would think that she would learn her talking points aren’t worth the electrons it took to write them.
Maybe “No Incarceration Without Representation!”
The danger here, as pointed out upthread, is the signing statement. If Bush can sign it, and then just disregard it at will, well, then, it’s value is largely symbolic.
RonD @ 120
Bush can do all the signing statements he wants but courts will ignore them as they aren’t part of the law that was passed. Congress makes the law.
Thank you, Rachel, for all your help with this. As I said to Caroline, feel free to drop by whenever. You’re most welcome here.
FYI, Swopa is upstairs
Woodhall Hollow @ 115
This guy Cobb is a total idiot isn’t he?
Loo Hoo @ 118
Wow Loo Hoo, Did it happen in New Haven too? I won’t state the town unless it will really add to the discussion, but these people disappeared. If I remember why correctly, there was an assertion that some of the money collected at the mosque was sent to Al Quaeda. No proof offered, no lawyers allowed, no family allowed to visit. I’ve tried to go back to the press on it and can’t find it yet.
Do you have another story?
Swopa is upstairs – Link
RE: 88 and a short name for HC:
“Right to a Fair Trial” ??
epu’d, I know — but this reminded me that I can actually afford to join the ACLU at the moment – so I took the impulse and acted on it.
Thanks– for all FDL and ACLU do. I’m not much for “joining” much of anything, and I’ve been so broke for so long it’s been a moot point. But the times are such that one has to take some collective action, and ACLU is sure one that keeps battling.
Beautiful post, Christy.
It seems we’re effectively fighting the Revolutionary War all over again, only this time we’re having to take on our own “elected” Executive and Legislative Branches of government.
To coin a motto:
The fundamental guarantee of human liberty in the forming of this nation, of necessity preceded the next steps in the establishment of the civilized society our Founders forged.
Without a sound foundation of liberty, guaranteed for all, the second half of another motto inevitably comes into play in the life of any nation that starts being dragged back toward the tyranny of the Law of the Jungle, where might allegedly makes right – such as Hitler’s ’survival of the fittest’ justification for his brutal slaughter of helpless, unarmed human beings who didn’t meet his approval as “worthy” members of the human race – and where all that signifies (as with today’s Republican Party) is power, for power’s sake alone:
I’ll take liberty, whether it pleases the powers that be or not.
Well three cheers for the ACLU, Chris Dodd, and all others fighting to restore (for want of an even crisper alternative) the right not to be disappeared .
I’ve been a lurker for quite a while, but I couldn’t resist trying to figure out a short slogan (or something catchy) regarding Habeus, as some of you have thought of…I don’t know if this is short enough, but, here goes:
Habeus Corpus
If you think I did a crime,
To make me do the time,
You’ve got to charge me by the law
Not just throw me in the pen,
And hold me ‘til I’m moldy.
By the way, I enjoy the site, and find it a refreshing oasis…%>)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 27
One of the most dangerous flaws in our legislative system is allowing laws to be created without Constitutional review. Any bad law, and local laws are among the worst, which is on the books but not enforced regularly is dangerous.
A bad law which hasn’t yet been challenged and overturned is still on the books and forces people to self-censure. That’s very bad and is a huge infringement of our basic Freedom.
I’d suggest we add the Judicial branch into our legislative process by requiring every piece of legislation passed by Congress be given an ‘all clear’ by the Court before it ever go to the President.
Having no Habeas protection means having no habeas protection until the Court overturns it. When does that happen? Never if the Executive branch refuses to bring any habeas cases. But, the law remains on the books, just lurking and waiting to be enforced.
Audrey @ 66
Maybe someone from the Dodd campaign would like to write a post here (if the fdl gals would allow) with a list of the Senator’s achievements and votes on (what many consider) important bills.
I still see Edwards, Obama and Dodd as likely candidates, so all we learn about their positions and records is going to be useful.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 92
How about “due process for prisoners”
I have talked to quite a few people about the loss of this right. Most people’s initial reaction is that this is just a technicality and would not apply to them anyway. This is discouraging to me.
After the MCA passed last year I decided to move to another country. I will still participate in US politics and work to restore our constitutional rights.
RichyBassman @ 134
Yeah. Except I’d say “due process for detainees.” To me, “prisoner” connotes an individual already convicted of something.
ralphbon @ 135
I looked up prisoner and detainee and agree that “due process for detainees” is better.
Richybassman:
Hot damn, problem solved! Except no one else is still here.