I generally agree with the post-debate media spin that Senator Clinton’s overall performance helped her image. Putting aside for the moment her continuing discomfort in having to explain her original vote to authorize the Iraq invasion, Clinton’s principal media problem coming into the debate was symbolized by two books, and the media voyeurism they released, which did their best to define who Hillary Clinton is. For the last week they provided the media pundits, almost none of whom wish her well, with endless diversion reinforcing whatever pejorative images of the woman they hoped to push.
However, all this negative image making was based on pretty weak tea. When Carl Bernstein appeared on one of the cable news shows to summarize what he’d found after 600 pages and 10 years of research, the worst epithet he could conjure was that she appeared “inauthentic.” Not corrupt, not a liar, not a cheater, not disloyal, not stupid or venal, let alone a crook; just inauthentic. The Hardballers made what they could from this tea bag, reminding us of Clinton’s image of being overly scripted and triangulating, whatever that means.
But last night, I thought Clinton blew “inauthentic” away. And her supporters knew it: in the post-debate spin room, campaign adviser Mandy Grunwald explained that Hillary lived in a world where everyone else was constantly trying to define her, but the caricatures never matched the candidate her closest supporters saw every day. “Last night, Hillary defined herself,” she said; it is pretty standard spin, but I think she’s right.
In response after response, Clinton seemed very much in command of who she is and what she stands for, and there was nothing “inauthentic” about it. She was articulate, informed, and showed her experience and maturity. She’s been there, done that, and seemed to understand what worked and what didn’t and why. And except on the key issue of her original Iraq vote, Clinton was very much the Party unifier last night. She refused to allow Blitzer (or her colleagues) to define the issues in ways that would divide the party — with one major exception, which I’ll come back to. But first look at this framing:
Everybody on this stage, we are all united, Wolf. We all believe that we need to try to end this war. In two nights you’re going to have the Republican candidates here. They all support the war. They all support the president. They all supported the escalation. Each of us is trying in our own way to bring the war to an end. . . .
And I think it’s important particularly to point out; This is George Bush’s war. He is responsible for this war. He started the war. He mismanaged the war. He escalated the war. And he refuses to end the war.
And what we are trying to do, whether it’s by speaking out from the outside or working and casting votes that actually make a difference from the inside, we are trying to end the war. . . .
The differences among us are minor. The differences between us and the Republicans are major. And I don’t want anyone in America to be confused.
I thought all the other candidates did well, Obama and Dodd particularly so, though Dodd was the victim of Blitzer’s time discrimination, getting barely half the time and questions as Obama. But whatever benefit these rivals thought they might get from Hillary’s image, I suspect they know today that Clinton is not going to let others define her.
I have serious misgivings about Senator Clinton’s unwillingness to acknowledge the egregious error of her original war authorization vote. She said she was thoroughly briefed on the intelligence, knew all the evidence, talked to the dissenters, and yet — and this is the error she can’t admit — her judgment was to trust George Bush to do the right thing.
What I did not count on, and what none of us did who voted to give the President authority, is that he had no intention to allow the inspectors to finish the job.
Perhaps, but those who did not vote to give the President the authority did see the problem with Bush; why didn’t she? Or did she see it and believe the war would be a success? Blitzer did not ask that on follow up and it remains the key to understanding why many remain concerned about that vote.
Perhaps even more disturbing was her response to Edward’s attempts to reframe the “war on terror.” The Democrats should not be arguing about this; it is a ticket out of the morass. I thought Edwards was right to make this effort, even though it’s a tough sell, but his explanation last night of what he meant seemed weak. That gave Clinton the chance to wave 9/11 in the same way Bush does; it was an ugly moment in which the Democrat’s possible Presidential candidate missed an opportunity to improve her own image and her party’s ability to confront terrorism by helping Edwards reframe the terror debate. That she chose to use that moment not only to discredit Edwards but worse, to reinforce the most poisonous of the Bush/Cheney talking points is discouraging. That moment illustrated why so many of us have strong misgivings about a Clinton Presidency, no matter how authentic she is.
Thanks to Crooks and Liars for the Debate video.
Related posts:
- Kiss Up, Kick Down: Our GOP/Media Complex in Action
- Nine Democrats “Just Say No” to Graham-Lieberman
- Which Senate Democrats Would Join a GOP Filibuster on a Public Option?
- Did Democrats Lie to Us About Only Needing 51 Votes for Health Care Reform?
- Political Expert Steve McMahon Advises Democrats How to Fail On Health Reform





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zed with a bulletin board!
I’ll tell the kids below!
Hillary looked ‘presidential’ last night!
Thx, scarecrow, nice analysis.
Add to the above that her fawning support of Condi’s appointment as Sec. of State, and I think it’s legitimate to insist that Hillary define her foreign policy thinking *very* clearly in the months ahead.
da kid is here, I thought I’d broken something though, no ripples on teh lake.
Good morning Scarecrow!
{{{{{Scarecrow}}}}}
radiofreewill @ 3
Yes, and according to their spinners, so did every other candidate. It was the the most common phrase I heard in the spin room.
I’ve always thought Hillary was formidable, and she’d probably be more effective than Bill was.
I just don’t like her DLC policies, and given the life choices she made (sat on Wal-Mart’s board, chose to work for a union-busting law firm, etc.) it’s clear she believes those policies.
Go Edwards!
Scarecrow @ 8
So none of the spin this time about “electability”, save for positions on issues?
Scarecrow,
I hope it was fun for you.
I agree wholeheartedly with your statement:
That, along with many other reasons are why I can’t support a Clinton candidacy. I also wish that Edwards had been able to articulate his point better.
Scarecrow – When do you think we’ll see the ‘also-rans’ begin to drop out of the race?
excellent analysis, as always, scarecrow.
maybe clinton isn’t inauthentic (whatever that means)… maybe she just really is an uber-hawk… maybe she really does think that invading iraq was a good idea (if only it hadn’t been mismanaged).
i think her defense of the “war on terror” (911!!!, 911!!!) is not a good sign.
EPU’d from a couple three threads below.
My immediate post-debate perspective:
Arrow up:
Hillary
Dodd
Biden (Public funding of elections)
Neutral
Richardson
Edwards
Down slightly
Obama
Kucinich
Down significantly
Gravel (crankiness didn’t go over well this time)
My $.02
OT Scarecrow but what was the skinny on Eric Alterman? Or did you hear anything amidst the noise and crowds?
Good morning everyone. I have been spun, fed cocktail weanies, and rubbed elbows with Mark Shields. I’ve watched Cillizza and Dionne. You may never trust me again.
Lots of feuding behind the scenes between Edwards/Obama camps, jockeying for the right to take on the Hillary. It wasn’t very convincing, because in the final analysis, there doesn’t seem to be a huge difference in policy outlook. The debate about “leadership” with Edwards claiming Obama/Clinton waited too late to decide which way to vote, while Obama says he opposed the war when Edwards supported it — it all looks pretty superficial today and probably doesn’t help either candidate.
radiofreewill @ 3
That’s the same thing they say about Romney and Thompson—they look presidential. I want more than that. LOTS more.
radiofreewill @ 12
i hope not until the dnc. they add important ideas to the conversation.
jeeze – we’ve got 6 months ’till the first primary. most people haven’t even started thinking about who they will vote for. there’s no rush.
diogenes @ 9
And that one of her chief campaign managers is a union busting corporate shill. No thanks.
radiofreewill @ 12
If this were February, I’d worry about that, because having 8 people on the stage tends to cheat them all. But I’m okay with that for now — and I don’t think the Democrats hurt themselves by having 8 articulate candidates presenting a fairly unified and coherent view of what they would do — at least as coherent as it gets in these strange times. I hope they all stay in for a while — each has something worthwhile to add.
Scarecrow, I appreciate your take on the debates, with a small quibble. The first HC quote is excellent, but your lead-in sentences confused me as to your opinion of it, because it looks like that is the area where you think she allowed Blitzer to define the debate. Only after I finished the post did I see that it is a foreshadowing of the last substantive paragraph.
per scarecrow’s request: here is your congressional hearings weekly update:
tuesday is the big day – with (in addition to the libby sentencing) Bradley Schlozman and Todd Graves testifying before the senate judiciary committee. on thursday, in the morning, the senate armed services will be considering General Lute’s nomination for “war czar“…. and, in the afternoon, the senate judiciary committee will be holding a hearing on elections (check out the witness list!)
below is a list of only a few of this week’s hearings. it’s quite possible that i haven’t included the hearing on your favorite topic, so… just for you, i’ve put up webpages for this week’s senate and house hearings. there you can find more comprehensive lists of hearings and links to even more.
Tuesday, Jun. 5, 2007
10 am
Senate Finance
Trade and Globalization: Adjustment for a 21st Century Workforce
2:30 pm
Senate Judiciary
To continue hearings to examine the Department of Justice politicizing the hiring and firing of United States Attorneys, focusing on preserving prosecutorial independence.
Witnesses: Bradley J. Schlozman, Todd Graves
Wednesday, Jun. 6, 2007
10 am
Senate Judiciary
To hold hearings to examine patent reform, focusing on the future of American innovation.
10:00 am
House Armed Services
The Full Committee will meet to receive testimony on Department of Defense body armor programs.
Thursday, Jun. 7, 2007
9:30 am
Senate Armed Serivces
To consider the nomination of Lieutenant General Douglas E. Lute, USA, to be Assistant to the President and Deputy National Security Advisor for Iraq and Afghanistan. [war czar]
10 am
Senate Judiciary
Business Meeting to consider Bills, Nominations and Resolutions.
Bills include: S. 185, Habeas Corpus Restoration Act of 2007
2 pm
Senate Judiciary
To hold hearings to examine S.453, to prohibit deceptive practices in Federal elections.
2:00 p.m.
House Judiciary
Subcommittee on the Constitution, Civil Rights, and Civil Liberties
Oversight Hearing on the Constitutional Limitations on Domestic Surveillance
p.s. fyi – i take requests… if there’s a hearing you’d like recorded as an mp3, it doesn’t hurt to ask. here are a few previous recordings.
I guess I’m in the minority for thinking that Hillary’s explanation of her vote to authorize the war is legitimate. At the time, while the evidence was pretty clear to anyone paying attention that there was no reason for this war, Bush, Cheney and Powell pressured Congress for this authorization so that they could be united at the negotiating table in pressuring Sadaam to comply. It was later, when Kerry ran for President, that they turned his vote into a vote for the war – and he fell for it. Now, everyone wants Hillary to take her vote back, but it’s a trap she refuses to fall into and she’s right. The fact is, she never voted for war. It’s just difficult to rise about the spin. Her explanation is pretty clear, if you just listen.
But like Scarecrow, I’m pissed that she said that we are safer now because of anything Bush did. I think she’s trying to pander to Republican voters that are never going to vote for her. And if there’s one thing this board speaks for is that Bush has only made us less safe and less democratic.
masaccio @ 21
I see your point; I made a slight edit that may help.
Scarecrow, thanks for the great breakdown!
I admit to my biases. I’m for Gore/Dean 08.
One thing that annoyed me about Sen. Clinton was her use of the word “we” when talking about the successes of Bill’s presidency. I know that marriage is a partnership and he trusted her advice, as any husband would. It really shouldn’t annoy me.
But on some level, it did.
Good morning everyone!
Thank you Scarecrow!
G’ morning, all… coffee is ready.
Scarecrow – I think you’ve hit the nail on the head.
But, when I was listening last night to the re-run, I found myself WANTING to listen to what Clinton said. And that was different for me.
She’s doing something right…
selise—
Thank you SO much for this list of hearings. Much appreciated.
Geogesimian — isn’t the current predicament the fact that Congress authorized this President to make a decision about using military force — it is, after all, called the Authorization to Use Military Force — and left it up to him? And now they wish they hadn’t given him that discretion. That’s the “no blank checks” argument. The fault was giving Bush the first blank check, even though they might have believed there was language in the authorization that would lead him to exercise his decision based on sound analysis and the right conditions. Those who voted no didn’t trust Bush. Those who voted yes need to explain why they did.
Scarecrow @ 24 Thanks.
My thought with Clinton is that she wanted to give the President all the negotiating power necessary… I think she could even say, “I trusted Bush and that was a terrible mistake”…
It’s not quite there, but it’s better than what we’ve got now.
Is the Republican debate going to be in the same location?
Hill playing the ultra-fear card.
Not very becoming.
GeorgeSimian @ 22
there a couple of reasons i see it differently than you.
one, it was also clear to many of us that this vote was to allow bush to go to war. even i saw it that way, at the time, which was why i was madly organizing anti-war actions. lots of other people understood that… listen to gore’s speech, Iraq and the War on Terrorism, from September 23, 2002.
two, i think clinton saw it that way too. take a look at this youtube of clinton w/ codepink in march 2003.
The mods are helping clean up the typos; so refresh to get the corrected version. I got home a little late last night.
Elliott @ 33
Yes.
Is “It takes a Clinton to clean a Bush mess” a saying yet ? Edwards and Dodd are definitely the candidates that are most aligned with my core values, but Clinton’s got much more charisma than I expected … She gives me this lingering feeling that she’s the candidate to sweep the next election.
Thank you Scarecrow. I share your final sentiment about HC.
Anyone here think we (FDL, DFHs, etc.) are soft on terra? I feel the WOT is so overblown. Am I just a pansy?
OldCoastie @ 32
yes that’s perhaps a better answer – one that Kerry used. With a decent President whose intelligence and integrity and motives you trust, it may be a defensible position to strenthen the President’s hand in negotiations. But after Bush, no Congress should ever give a President that unilateral power — it’s why the framers gave it to Congress in the first place.
egregious @ 29
you’re welcome!
fyi, for everyone else. my hearings list comment got caught for a bit by the spam filters (way too many links). thank you mods for setting it free…. so sorry to make work for you.
to see the list, hit refresh or click this link.
Obama didn’t seem ‘on his game’ last night. He’s not so good on his feet and needs more polish to keep from hurting himself.
Edwards has excellent messaging – he should stay strong for a while.
I kept thinking – along with millions – that ‘Gore would do well in this field.’
Elliott @ 33
Yes with Wolfie “moderating” again…
selise @ 41
thank you, selise!
My name is Elliott and I am a hearing junkie. ;)
Well, I know I have problems with some of Hillary’s “inside the beltway” policies and her ties to corporate american. But I seriously doubt that we will be hurt by her policies. In the end I feel she would fight for social programs that help the bottom line, that she will grease the corporate poles so that she will get republican votes in senate and congress when she needs them. I feel she will have diplomacy in global affairs and there is no damage to having Bill helping out. If he cheats again, it will be small potatoes.
I cannot help but get excited about the prospect of having a woman in office. Of having a female role model. Seriously, is it wrong for me to care deeply about wanting to be able to say to my daughter…we broke the glass ceiling??? The Hillary bashing seems so unneccesary.
I worry about her being elected but I worry because of sexism. I worry because alot of the comments about her “bitchiness, her inauthenticity” refuses to “understand” the pressure of being the “first” woman in this spotlight AND refuses to consider that the republicans have taken this family through the biggest magnifying glass of all time. EVER.
I am not all for Hillary, but I really don’t get the venom. I wasn’t for Bill when he was nominated, but he did pretty well. I wasn’t for Carter, but he was trashed by the rethuglicans. I just don’t want to be part of the trashing and I think women need to really consider the historic significance of being able to finally tell our daughters that they too, might be president someday.
For me it was excruciatingly painful to have to tell her that to date, we have never had a female or black president. I would take either Barack or Hillary and to me, that’s what it means to be a democrat.
I don’t mind legitimate questions of policy but some of it seems “overkill” and not what we would hear in reference to white male candidates.
It has always been on matters of foreign policy that the Dems and the Pukes most closely resemble one another’s positions…they diverge most (but not really very much) at the margins of domestic policy…
./
Everyone get the final story on the Alterman arrest? The initial description made it sound like he crashed the main event, but there was an invitation only reception on the second floor above the main floor of the gymnasium, where the “spin room” occurred. Earlier in the evening, the entrance in the back brings you to this second floor, so it would have been natural for Eric to wander in, before it all got started. Later, the security folks directed people downstairs to the main floor to be spun. Eric decided it would be cool to stay upstairs where they were serving drinks — and got busted. He was later released and I’d be surprised if there are formal charges.
I do not see the point of requiring an outright confession of the error of HC’s vote on the AUMF. If she comes out and says she made a mistake, it hands a huge talking point to the righties, and makes her look bad, and for what?
When Bill Clinton was assaulted on the zipper problems, we were satisfied with the answers about “causing pain in the marriage” and the other waffles, because we could see that he knew what was happening. We knew that if he admitted anything, the screamers on the right would be emboldened to destroy his presidency.
HC isn’t going to make that mistake, and we should drop that issue. Her explanations are satisfactory to me. I know that if I were in her shoes facing that vote, I, too, would find it hard to believe that he was just outright lying to get his way. It is easy for me, who have no stake in the matter other than as an observer and a voter, to think the man is a liar, but it would be hard for a responsible public official to conclude that he would lie us into a war.
I don’t doubt that there were some political considerations, but I do not think that she made the decision for purely political reasons. If this were so, then we would have a completely different problem than her refusal to provide a satisfactory mea culpa for trusting Bush.
selise @ 35
“Looking presidential” seems quite similar to “pretending to be President” and that’s all that we’ve ever gotten from Bush.
dakine01 @ 43
I’ll be interested to see if he is much of a jerk as it seems, from everyone’s comments, that he was last night.
Scarecrow @ 40
I understand but don’t forget the times when she did that. Although many of us on the left never trusted Bush, she was voting on the AUMF in ‘02 and 9/11 really was still very fresh. I agree that I thought it was a pre-text for war with Iraq but there was a vast group of persons who were still willing to give him a slight benefit of the doubt…
RevDeb @ 17
I agree, you’re right. But think of it this way. We need both policies AND “looking presidential” for someone to really get things done in the USA, given the way politics and the MSM operates. Neither one is enough.
Another point: no matter how much you (or anyone) distrusts Hillary, just imagine what the last six years would have been like with her as President. I’m not saying she’s the best choice here, just think of the contrast with W.
George Clooney (George Clooney??) had it right. They were afraid of looking unpatriotic and soft on security issues. The whole country was still in a state of shock and the politicians wanted to appear strong on national defense. A ‘no’ vote would have been unpopular with the masses and the repub spin machine would have gone into overdrive criticizing them. That’s the evidence they used to determine their vote.
Even my man, John Edwards.
Um, do the mods know everything is being italicized?
[Mod: Refresh, it should be fine]
on the other hand, in case of another event of similar or greater magnitude to ix/xi, no Congress will/could ever refuse a President’s demand for such power…
.
This is what Clinton should have said:
Why is this Repub obsession with Americans being safer at home? Our soldiers are Americans too. 3,400 of them died since 2003 – 2003, she should emphasize with exclamation -
since the Iraq war started, and about 20,000 wounded. And if Bush continues the war, more are likely to die. Why are they only obsessed with 9/11 type of deaths? A death is a death – whether it is civilian or military and our goal is to prevent all those types of deaths and destruction.
Elliott @ 51
I posted a couple of comments last night that it would be nice if someone did a side by side compare on the two debates and rub his nose in the biases that I am quite certain will be apparent to all but the most obtuse. I suggested Olberman, Stewart, or Colbert but am open to anyone who can get the point across to him…
He did get slapped down a couple of times by the candidates for the inanity of his questions.
Hilary’s stand on Iraq represents the conventional wisdom of the foreign policy establishment (with a few exceptions). That wisdom is that the United States must dominate the Middle East in its national self-interest. I have never understood the logic of that argument. I understand why it is in Israel’s self-interest, and why American politicians should mask that interest as our own, but I do not understand the deeper logic of our own interest.
The argument seems to be that if some other country (namely China or India) gets preferred access to Middle Eastern oil, it won’t be available for us. Now, this argument makes superficial sense, except that it doesn’t define ‘preferred access.’ Do we have that access now? If so, in what specific sense? Oil is sold on a world market, what the Chinese might obtain from the Persian gulf is what they won’t buy from Nigeria or Venezuela or Russia or any of the other parts of the world that produce oil. So where exactly is the strategic risk to our oil supply?
An important aspect attentuating that strategic risk is that the United States currently wastes so much energy that for a comparatively small sacrifice we could save more than what it costs to maintain the undefinable ‘preferred access.’
If we can’t do that, then the real reason comes down to the bottom line that our ‘way of life’ requires living in suburban gated communities and driving three to four miles to the mall to shop. Anything less is an affront to our deepest values. Is this what our foreign policy bonzes have in mind when they talk about our strategic interest?
Sorry for the long post, but I think we have to decorticate Hilary’s support of the Iraq policy. I believe that her reasons are shared by the other major candidates, including John Edwards, whom I support.
Katie Jensen at 45:
Hear Here! My sediments exactly.
Katie Jensen @ 45 makes a good point. I am not a fan of HC, but I don’t see any reason for all the venom. It looks bad when we assault her for acting like a sensible politician, especially when some of these attacks fuel republican talking points that are soaked in sexism.
In defense of CNN: At least they didn’t ask any ‘elephant in the room’ questions. I don’t think any of the questions were “gotcha”.
Just saying.
A strong Hillary weakens Bush.
The Goopers fear strong women, in general, but Hillary, in particular.
Just the dawning of the thought “She might win…” is enough to turn Bush’s Iraq Folly into a cast-iron albatross around all the Goopers’ necks.
“Iraq is George Bush’s Vietnam.”
~ Ted Kennedy
Solai @ 61
I thought Brian Williams was much worse. Brian seemed sly and definitely played gotcha.
putting aside my almost visceral distaste for hillary — a distaste i should emphasize is based exclusively on her weasly beltway politics — i have to say i am soooo damn weary of all the fragging she has to take because a) she’s a woman and b) she’s bill clinton’s wife.
right now it’s the msm and the reps doing it, but at some point in this precampaign the dems will start increasing their firepower, under the guise of her “electability.” meanwhile, the true contest, of ideas and leadership, will fall by the wayside. which is what turns off so many voters in the first place.
Solai @ 61
that is saying something, though. That technique (best exemplified by Timmeh) doesn’t further any debate.
Solai @ 61
I thought the “what would you do with Bill” question was funny. Fox/Hume asked the Republicans that question in their debate, and they all used is as an opportunity to ridicule Bill, and thus Hillary — that was exactly what Fox/Hume wanted. So CNN asked the same question to Dems, and they all said, “wow, what a great asset we have” in the international arena. And all the Dem candidates said that, so Hillary didn’t have to. And she was the “winner” on that question, without having to say anything. Her response, “I think we should use all our past presidents to help undo the damage of the last seven years” was a winner. (Wonder what George H.W. Bush thinks of that?) But that was a CNN vs Fox moment.
Knut Wicksell @ 58 points out a good reason to quit thinking about oil as the central issue. But. It is hard to change the conventional wisdom with an economic argument. And there is a real problem on the horizon: what if some nations began pricing oil in Euros, or a basket of currencies not including the dollar. I can tell you that the Euro is expensive from personal experience, and if we have to pay for oil in Euros it won’t take long to feel real pain. That argues strongly for dominance in Iraq, so we could prevent that change.
masaccio @ 60
That was a pretty formidable woman we saw last night, in ways that really helped her with all groups. And I think that as they hold more of these, she’s only going to get better and appear stronger.
katie @ 45, i see you got there first.
nicely said.
masaccio @ 67
and the risk of that actually happening is George W. Bush’s fault. One more way in which he is ruinng our Republic.
Let’s face it ANY of the Democratic candidates are better than ANY of the Republicans. While I would untimately prefer Gore, I can live with just about anyone in the Dem field. So, if Hillary is ultimately selected as the Dem Candidate, I will do everything in my power to see her elected.
Scarecrow, how were you bloggers treated by the MSM in the media room?
which may be true…
but more importantly, i believe, iraq will be seen to have been the USofA’s Afghanistan, which bled the Soviets dry a couple of decades prior…i don’t think iraq can be the Busheviks’ Vietnam WITHOUT it also being the USofAs Afghanistan…
./
scarecrow, have bloggers been credentialed to cover presidential debates before yesterday?
It is possible to frame the Iraq fiasco as entirely a moral failure. It isn’t: It’s a failure of governance — the failure to pursue a rational, transparent, honest process of trying to figure out, together, and to the best of our ability — within the executive branch, with the Congress, and with the people — what the evidence really is, what it means, and what we ought to do about it. To truly weigh what we know and don’t know, what the options are, and what the risks and benefits of each option might be. To truly put our best thought behind doing the best thing for our country and for the world.
That’s why I like Clinton. She’s seen successes and failures in governance and she understands and knows how to manage the kinds of processes we need to get more successes than failures. I trust her to select people who understand this as well. I love Obama’s brains, his natural rhetorical skills, and his ability to inspire people. I love Edwards’s passion. But experience at governance matters. Hillary’s been through the wringer and she’s come out stronger than ever.
The NYT hack Jeff Gerth has a post on Huffington. He’s taking some hits from some posters but it would be nice to see more blasting this right wing shill. He’s one of the Kool Kids in the Broadway-Beltway triangle of disinformation.
As an Edwards supporter, I was interested in this from Paul Krugman’s column today [behind firewall, but you can register for access if you can provide a .edu e-mail address]:
This re Obama’s plan [mods, I’ve tried to cut this down so as to not offend fdl guidelines][apologies to Obama supporters for not being able to include all of Krugman’s points]:
Elliott @ 72
Good question — I introduced myself to several people I recognized — no problems. Mark Shields was particularly gracious. The image of bloggers is changing and progressive blogs are read more and more. Several people I met know about FDL and said “say hi to Jane,” or “I met Christy at . . .”
The student gym where we were set up had everyone together: print, TV, radio, bloggers, all together — rows and rows of people following politics.
In the spin room, the spinners I talked to knew about FDL; we’re treated seriously.
Katie Jensen @ 45
Maybe it will be deemed politically incorrect or sly to associate one Clinton with the other but the Clintons are hardly a real choice to the Bush/Cheney people. The Clintons appointed the Freeh/Tenet/Berger/Albright national security team, hardly the A tema to say the least. This is not a positive legacy to say the last 8 years of Clintons and the only legacy that there is/was consists of self seving and sadly ineffective plicy decisions. So fast forward to Hillary Clinton relying on George Bush and George Tenet in voting for the Iraq Wat. Hillary Clinton had first had experience with Tenet and had to know he was completely, and I mean completely, unreliable. As far as George Bush with his personal history, no way. So Hillary Clinton is what she has always been and will always be, an uninspiring careerist, just like the other Clinton.
Moved on.
selise @ 74
Yes. Laura from kos, whom I sat next to, has been covering these events from the beginning.
PeterK @ 53
That’s not even a question. ANYONE in the field of dems in 2000 would have made a better president than W. Hell, anyone who regularly participates here would have made a better president than W. I do not trust here and I do not like the people she has working for and around her. They do not reflect the values that I care about.
There was an article in the NY Times magazine section yesterday written by Jeff Gerth.
I did a diary over at
Daily Kos about it – I couldn’t keep up with the heat it created. I got accused of attacking two candidates at once. I had pointed out that Gerth’s wife works for Dodd, and he’d been debunked by Media Matters (in a link).
Anyway, he did point out an interesting factoid – Hillary had not only voted for the war, but voted against an amendment introduced by Carl Levin and several other Senate Democrats requiring a two-step process before Congress would actually authorize the use of force.
I ended up taking a couple of Tylenols and a nap.
Solai @ 61
Wolfie was trying to play gotcha just wasn’t as good at it as Williams. He was quite rude in continually trying to interrupt and talk over the answers. And the slap downs were quite pleasant and actually got him to back-off when he was pushing for the candidates to trash each other.
Scarecrow @ 30
Yeah, but it’s easy to look back and see what happened. Remember the state of the country at that time and what Bush said. He said, you have to stand behind me, and at that time the public was overwhelmingly supportive of that. He was asking for this authorization because, he said, without it, the threat of war didn’t have any power. And he was probably right in that. I mean, he didn’t really need the authorization to actually go to war.
Now, of course, this all looks ridiculous. I mean, what ever happened to the Bush argument that we needed to get on with this war because it might be too hot in the summer (of 2003) for our troops to effectively fight it? They say whatever they want to get their way.
Great post, scarecrow — and fantastic job last night. How were the cocktail weenies? Hope there were no quail wings… *G*
Scarecrow @ 68
I agree. She really has a lot going for her, despite the downsides (which we maybe focus on a bit too much).
Watched as much as I could of the repub debates which only decisively confirmed my “sheesh, is that all they’ve got?” pov. It was hard to imagine that the repub candidates could look any worse until I watched the democratic debates last night. The dems have a way to go before they meet my hopes but there was no doubt they are all intelligent candidates. What a contrast!
Nuance is a French word and so verboten in the context of the War Resolution but let me try.
It’s an onion. Start at the outer layer. You are convinced George Bush wants to get his war on. You are further convinced that Saddam is not a strategic threat to the US. And convinced beyond that that based on his actions in 1996 Saddam will not blink and admit Inspectors. Okay that is where I was (thanks to Steve G, RIP) and so I opposed voting for the War Resolution.
Peel back a layer. You are convinced on all three points but understand that Bush has the votes in the bag. Moreover you calculate that once he invades the troops will find enough evidence of chemical weapons that rational arguments about not being a threat to the US will fall on deaf ears. The proof will be in the artillery shells and the only possible defence against being called an anti-American terrorist loving traitor will have been the vote in favor of the Resolution. Which I think is a fair description of where Hillary was. Okay not exactly material for Profiles in Courage, on the other hand hindsight is 20/20 and the Democratic Party might have been swamped in 2004 rather than the break even position we got.
Peel back another layer. Beyond anybody’s expectation Saddam did blink. This is key. Anyone who voted for the War and expected the Resolution to work as designed on the surface, that is force Saddam to admit Inspectors and allow them to complete the job of disarming Iraq was pretty naive at best. It was clear as day that the instant Inspectors turned up evidence of anything that Bush would strike on the basis of “No time to wait”, the first bunker of dusty artillery shells would have green-lighted this war. It is almost beyond belief that Saddam was efficient enough to actually eliminate all trace of his weapons program without his generals knowing. But he did.
Okay snap back to the surface of the onion and pretend you have no understanding that Bush doesn’t care about disarmament and only cares about invading Iraq. Pretend that is that the President of the United States is not a serial liar about his intentions, that when he says “the decision to go to war has not been made” and that that decision is dependent on Saddam’s willingness to disarm that he is leveling with the American people. Well that is not where I was but it was not an unreasonable position for most Americans. From that fairly narrow perspective the War Resolution did exactly what on the surface it claimed to be doing all along: use the credible threat of American military action to force Saddam to admit Inspectors. At that level it worked, Saddam did admit Inspectors, they were well on the way to proving Iraq had disarmed.
It worked, The War Resolution did what on the surface it set out to do. That no one who voted for it actually calculated that it would work is to a degree beyond the point. As is the claim that everyone thought Saddam had chemical weapons. The entire calculus changed once Inspectors were on the ground, at that point everyone who voted for the War got the “Blind Pig Finding an Acorn Get Out of Jail Free” card, 100% of the responsibility passed to the Decider.
To say that Hillary or Edward or Kerry’s vote for the War was a mistake is easy in hindsight, at the time it was pretty clear that the Fog of War would obscure all nuance at all. The first bunker of Chemical weapons would have swamped all discourse and supplied all the cover Bush needed.
The key is that the state of knowledge in Sept 2002 was much different than the state of knowledge in Feb 2003. Yes the vote in September was a vote for War. No question. But there was still a level of uncertainty that no longer existed in February. And by that time the decision was in the hands of the Decider.
Was the decision to vote for the War Authorization a mistake? Well that depends on how much you are willing to shove down the Memory Hole, how much you want to collapse the timeline between Sept 2002 and March 2003. You might even say the question was nuanced.
Scarecrow, did Tim Russert hog the cocktail weenies table?
larry birnbaum @ 75
i don’t see clinton as a proponent of transparency in governance. her management of the comprehensive health care program wasn’t exactly a transparent process.
can you give some more recent examples to show she’s changed her method on this? ‘cuz i just don’t see it.
not saying she’s any worse than any of the other candidates – but i don’t see any reason to think she’s any better. please enlighten me.
dakine01 @ 83
You probably heard this more clearly than I did. There was lots of background chatter in the media room, and even though the tv monitor sound was turned up, there were times when I missed what was said — one of them the time when Hillary interrupted Wolf about the hypotheticals. I think that was an important moment, but I missed it.
Scarecrow @ 78
excellent!
that gives me great hope that we really do have a way around the corporate control of news.
Solai @ 54
I was never in such a state of shock that I did not realize the entire country was being manipulated to attack a country that had nothing to do with 911. There was much evidence to the contrary.
The media is as much to blame as politicians in my opinion, because there is no frikkin way someone as smart as Hillary Clinton wasn’t keenly aware of the media framing of this issue and chose to take the safe route as opposed to honorable people like Feingold and Kucinich who cared more about the fate of their country than their political careers.
Al Gore, he had it right too – from the beginning, spoke out strongly against it, and was villified (of course) by the right, and avoided by Dems. That tells me all I need to know about the motivations of those who voted to let this president invade Iraq. After all, Gore wasn’t running.
But I guess Iraq had to blow up into a horrific bloody mess and over 3,000 soldiers die before it was safe to criticize what we had done.
I can’t get excited about any Dem candidate (although I like Kucinich, he doesn’t stand a chance) unless that candidate is Al Gore.
That said, I do understand the political implications of all of this and I am one of the few progressives who did not get furious about the supplemental because, by now, after years of railing against the war to no avail, I have accepted the political realities which prevented my voice, our voices, from being heard. But that doesn’t mean I have to like them.
Scarecrow said:
But Hilary and the rest of us were lied to. She isn’t responsible for actions undertaken as a result of propaganda from the administration. Hilary has said this albeit without directly accusing Bush because that would instantly polarize the electorate. It may be not what we want but I think it is a valid position.
leftdcin72 @ 79 says:
In the Clinton defense, Freeh and Tenet were pretty much shoved down Clinton’s throat by the Republicans as about the only confirmables.
I think the Republicans are dying for Hillary to get the nomination. They know exactly how to attack her and probably have multiple plans already underway to beat her. Plus, there’s 12 years of Right Wing propaganda against Hillary already in place: that’s a huge section of the voting population that would have to be deprogrammed in some way before they would even think about voting for her.
I get the sense that they are scared of Obama. Not sure why.
I’m not saying we shouldn’t vote for Hillary, btw. I like her.
This is an observation. I notice that as I grow older (I’m now 53), that my patience in explaining things, in listening to long explanations (or excuses as the case may be)….has been greatly affected. It enjoys an inverse relationship you might say. My daughter calls. She’s talking fast, explaining something about how somebody did this…and then this rolled over that….
….my reaction – what’s the bottom line? What do you need? What do you want? Just tell me in 10 words or less, 5 would be best.
Perhaps Ms Hillary is just simply tired of having to explain her vote. Although, I’m not satisfied and never will be. I mean, I KNEW then what was going on and if I knew why couldn’t she? And, I certainly didn’t have all the intelligence.
Scarecrow; at least we’re getting into the reality of it. About time.
As for Hillary not being “inauthentic” in the debate, I would say that getting off superficial zingers on Rice and Cheyney, at the same time she flatly refuses to say that her enabling vote was a mistake (which again, means that she can’t say that the INVASION, itself, was a mistake, is pretty fucking inauthentic.
Some democrats, including some on here, already reaching for the whitewash brush, as they try to help Hillary create the early stampede that she HAS to have, to win the nomination. If the the process is protracted, as Iraq continues into an unspinnable death-spiral, she has no chance.
It appears she is going to lose the Iowa primary to Edwards. If that happens, she can survive it, but her status as annointed front-runner will be damaged some. If she loses another one of the early contests, it will be panic city…and it should.
Consider this:
Dick Cheyney, in his relationship with Halliburton, has FAR more freedom of choice in his decision making, than does Hillary Clinton, in HER relationship with AI*AC.
They simply OWN her, up to her eyebrows.
And AI*AC is the american political arm Israel.
And Jane, Israel views the american troop withdrawal (abot which you have been beating the democrats like they were a rented mule) as an absolute political catastrophe for them.
All of the people on here who are either supporting her, or edging toward supporting here, are breathlessly waiting to start the “unity” chant, if she can fool enough democrats into believing that she can win in the general election. In fact, I’m afraid that if she COULD win the Iowa primary, followed by a New Hampshire win, that the staff here would instantly endorse her.
It will be the same suicidal impulse that is leading some democrats to try to hammer Pelosi & Co. into forcing troop withdrawals without holding accountable the people who SENT the troops, and without demanding THEIR help in forcing a withdrawal on george bush.
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 73
I couldn’t agree more!
It may take time for the general public to step back and see the cost of Bush’s “Rush to Shock and Awe” – but the fact is that Bush (and US by his proxy) have been Rope-A-Doped by Bin Laden.
The purpose of 911, as Bin Laden and a sizable chunk of Islam saw it, was to send an unmistakeable message to the US – “You have sold your soul to Mammon” – hence the strike on the World Trade Center.
We’ve committed over a Trillion dollars, so far, to the “Shock and Awe” response to Bin Laden’s $150,000 poke – with no end in sight.
Like it says in Sun Tzu’s ‘Art of War’ – the best enemy is a predictable enemy. How about that George (Foreman) Bush?
radiofreewill @ 62
I’d like to sidestep the question of Hillary’s policy stands [although it’s fair game at this point in the primaries] and jump ahead to the general election.
I DEEPLY fear that “she might win” will both motivate the Goopers like crazy [just imagine the tv ads & sermons] AND depress Dem votes.
I believe there are lots of folks out there ready to vote “Not Bush,” but when that means “Hillary,” I fear they’re going to pause and not show up. Her negatives are SO much stronger than any of our other candidates.
It’s one thing to ask voters to “warm up to” or get acquainted with Obama or Edwards, and then become committed voters. It’s quite another to hope that people will overcome their strong dislike of her, even enough to get themselves to the ballot box, to say nothing of contributing $$$ or working their asses off.
Just look at the comments of those here @ FDL who swear they won’t vote for her, will vote Green, etc. That’s Dems & Progressives. Imagine what negative feelings Independents & Republicans [or former/want-to-be-former Repubs] have.
We need EVERY vote, and we can’t afford someone who turns off such a huge segment of the electorate.
noen @ 94
I don’t buy this argument. It’s one thing for JoBlo American to say Fox News tricked him into supporting this war, but anyone who paid attention could see what was going on. Even on 60 Minutes, they were speaking out against the war.
Hillary had access to all the info she needed, but, the fact is she voted to autorize the President, she didn’t vote “for war”, and in doing what she did, she probably spoke for the majority of the people she represented in her state who all wanted to get behind the President.
dmg @ 64
This is why I don’t think she can win. Too much baggage, too much hatred and vitriol from the right, Rush Limbaugh and Fox News which cut their teeth on ripping Bill and Hillary.
It’s just a frikkin reality – completely unjustifiable, we don’t have to like it, but it’s out there. I know the same thing would happen to Gore if he ran even though the only thing they can attack him on is being an intellectual (enter spooky music)! And since when has that become something to despise? Where would be we be in this country without intellectuals and brilliant, abstract thinkers? Founding fathers, anyone? They weren’t exactly mental lightweights.
I wish Beltway pundits would put this chestnut to rest, the disengenuous b@stards, but they’re too intellectually challenged themselves to let go of their own envy.
But Gore doesn’t have the “real” baggage of being a constant equivocator like Hillary. He has been able to say exactly what he thinks (largely, in part, because he is NOT running) and what he has to say is mind-blowingly on target.
I am hoping he will keep talking, keep making appearances, and enough of the masses will beg him and pledge funds for him to run.
RevDeb @ 81
Sure, obviously.
No, I don’t think so. I certainly wouldn’t have. I agree that none of us would have made W’s mistakes (or whatever one should call them), but just stepping in with the right intentions is nowhere near enough. The MSM, for one, would immediately eat you alive.
Yeah, there is a real issue, that definitely needs to be looked at.
I got very cranky after the debates when CNN’s team came on to chew it over. Brazil, Carville, King, Anderson Cooper, blah. Was there ever a time when any of them had anything insightful to contribute? I still miss Aaron Brown.
Bruce Webb @ 88
Briliant, excellent analysis.
RawStory links to a story about the Arkansas Rethuglican Chairman. He wants terrorists to attack and kill us. It is OK if you are….
Bruce Webb @ 88
Thank you Bruce, that is a beautiful analysis, right to the point and well expressed. I recommend that everybody read it carefully.
Good Morning Scarecrow.
Dear fella! We just couldn’t not trust you, no matter how many elbows…
You’ve got us thoroughly branded by now, -er, framed? if not quite corralled. ;->
Thanks for a terrific analysis. Same for comments, dawgs. Reasons for the strong feelings many hold around here are finally becoming more clear to me. Maybe the early start to the campaign isn’t such a bad idea after all.
Still, I remain open and ready to vote for
[Dem:”any of the above”]
OVER
[repub anything!]
PERIOD!
…regardless of however things shake out during primaries.
Happily, so far that doesn’t look like a difficult decision at all.
sh-h-h-h! don’t tell any of the candy-dates yet. i’m still shoppin’. ;->
I, for one, believe that Clinton is correct that there is and should be a war on terror. Edwards is wrong on this issue.
Oh for pete’s sake! Get over it!
Clinton voted yes on the war because the vast majority of Americans WANTED TO GO TO WAR in Iraq. It was a political vote, but it was a political vote that the majority of Americans–AT THE TIME–were happy to see. You keep punishing Clinton for listening to the American people in 2002–when the majority of media and voters wanted war. The clear hypocrisy in these TIRESOME arguments is this: You wanted Hillary Clinton to oppose the vast majority of voters in 2002 when she cast that vote; but now you want her to listen to the vast majority of voters in 2007 when they’re ready to exit the Iraq War. Hillary Clinton listened to the American people both times; give her credit for that, at least!
I was against this war from the beginning. I’ve traveled to DC to protest in MAJOR marches numerous times since the fall of 2002. I’ve been an activist against this war during the entire war. I am a Vietnam-era Veteran married to a vet who served 26 years. I’m a Democrat and so is my spouse. We don’t give a rat’s ass about Hillary’s vote on the war. That is ancient history. Get over it. Try to determine how to get a Democrat into office in ‘08! That is ALL THAT MATTERS NOW. Hillary Clinton is clearly a strong candidate; your tiresome harping on that vote hurts her candidacy and the Democrats.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 85
Damn. That explains the bones.
noen @ 104
Hey noen, hope you are doing well!
noen @ 94
in march 2003, clinton said “we have to disarm saddam”. this was months after the inspectors were back in iraq.
based on her own words, at the time, i don’t think she was fooled by the propaganda. i don’t think she was pressured by the poltical environment. i think she just really thought it was a good idea to invade iraq.
i’d be very grateful if any firepups can direct me to some of senator clinton’s own words, from 2002/3, that show her thinking was other than that shown in the youtube link.
Scarecrow @ 110
not to worry. another marvel of repug. genetic engineering – boneless chickenhawk wings.
Any democracy that goes 24 years on two surnames is not a healthy one, regardless of Hillary’s personal talents and abilities.
And I hate to say this, but you’ve got a Dem field headed by Senators right now, and Senators don’t get elected president. Obama might buck the trend because he’s not been tainted as much by the Curse of the Senate. Edwards has been out since 2004. But with a GOP nominee who’s likely to be a classic ‘executive strongman’, the overall quality of the Dem field is offset by the advantages of running with executive experience.
The Dem nominee needs to be able to pummel the GOPper on foreign policy. I can’t see Hillary able to do that.
JoeCHI at 108 — Edwards has never said that there should not be a fight against people who employ terror tactics. What he said was that using a bumper sticker phrase like “war on terror” but choosing bad policies and reactive strategies with no long term benefits as the Bush Administration has done leads to more failure and less safety. All of the Democratic candidates — including Hillary Clinton and John Edwards — agree that we need to make smarter choices — because what the Bush Administration is doing right now, especially with its failures of diplomacy and its constant brush-offs of nations who ought to be our allies — is making us less safe, whatever public bravado spin the Bushies are using.
Accuracy is important, and your statement was, alas, inaccurate.
All my gripings aside, I must say that our line up makes the Republican crowd of wannabes look like a bunch of posturing, snot-nosed, school yard bullies who’d piss their pants if somebody actually challenged them on the playground.
selise @ 112
There is a long detailed article on Hillary and the war in Sunday’s NYT. I think you can access it on the web site (maybe you have to register).
I, too, am aged…and 52 looks young to me. I, too, simply read newspapers and looked at the Internet…and I, too, knew this Iraq war was a fraud.
Interestingly enough, I know of no–none, zilch, nada, zero, zip–woman who wants Hilary for president. It is not that they are anti-woman, it is that they have had enough of the Clintons, both Mr. and Mrs.
Mandrake @ 116
;->
selise @ 35
I watched the March 2003 codepink w/Hilary.
She was busy with the repubspeak of how dangerous Saddam Hussein is and how he is responsible for the deaths of his people, esp. women and children. How disingenuous of of her not to mention the millions of deaths caused by the 12yr. UN embargo from 1990-2003. http://www.commondreams.org/he…..900-02.htm
http://www.ilaam.net/War/IraqEmbargo.html
And then there’s Iraq’s switch from dollars to euros in oil trade in 2000:
So far only one OPEC country has dared switch to the euro: Iraq, …The dollar is the de facto world reserve currency: the US currency accounts for approximately two thirds of all official exchange reserves. More than four-fifths of all foreign exchange transactions and half of all world exports are denominated in dollars. In addition, all IMF loans are denominated in dollars….So far only one OPEC country has dared switch to the euro: Iraq, in November 2000. There is little doubt that this was a deliberate attempt by Saddam to strike back at the US, but in economic terms it has also turned out to have been a huge success: at the time of Iraq’s conversion the euro was worth around 83 US cents but it is now worth over $1.05. There may however be other consequences to this decision.
http://www.feasta.org/documents/papers/oil1.htm
Hilary Clinton, as the President’s wife and confidante for 8 years, had been privy to classified information. I cannot believe that she expects us to believe that her decision to vote for military authorization is based on information received via Bush and Congress. That just doesn’t fly. I think the truth of the matter is that we went to war with Saddam whom btw was our choice as favorite dictator, see article: http://www.juancole.com/2006/1…..ys-us.html
who gave the US the finger when he switched currencies and defied the hegemony of the US dollar. The fear was other foreign countries following suit. So, we went to war as a warning to anyone else planning to destroy the United States stranglehold on the oil currency.
And that’s what Hilary is NOT talking about. And why she will not admit that war was to prevent the possible economic collapse of the US dollar, in my opinion.
RadioFreeWill on 62 says:
“A strong Hillary weakens Bush.”
Nonsense.
The two of them are doing a menage a trois with AI*AC, as we speak. That’s why, a few months before the mid-terms, she was still pimping for bush to escalate the war by sending more troops.
It’s why she can’t say that the invasion was a mistake.
BTW, did anyone ask her if she thinks that?
They should ALL have been asked it.
But it’s an especially deadly question for her, as Iraq continues the slow death-spiral, because if she says “Yes, it was”, then the follow-up will be:
“Was your authorizing vote a mistake?
These are just words, but they are words that one hell of a lot of democrats who remember her support of Lieberman in the Connecticut senate race will continue to insist on hearing her speak.
RadioFree: Do you think that a “strong Hillary” weakens Lieberman and AI*AC?
Do you think that Hillary as preznit, will weaken THEM, in their rock-solid support for keeping our troops in Iraq?
Just askin…
(where’s that wicked smileface…:o) )
mornin’ scarecrow and y’all. not to worry, Hilary won’t ever get to be President. They are gonna run Fred Thompson and she is gonna get beat. it’s not just that she has negatives. Fred is just so darn likable by the voting set (you know, the ones who voted for Reagan AND Bush, twice!). Dems have to run someone smarter AND sharper than Fred (I know, I know, would not be that hard to find) if they are gonna win in 08.
I’ve been an Edwards fan for a while. He is not 100% on by any means, but I think over a broad spectrum of issues he is pretty solid and pretty electable. Or so I thought until last night. I am starting to worry that he is not able to present his case strongly enough. He is being too careful in these venues. My guess is that this is probably going to leave us with Hilary and I then worry that we will end up with a (justified) left wing third party that will deep six us, 2000 all over again (although I would say Nadar was NOT justified, Al Gore is no Hilary). I’m hoping this isn’t the scenario were looking at. As long as there is not a left wing third party, I think it is clear that Hillary will be the first woman president and our efforts need to focus on weakening the DLC through good candidates in the primaries. We need to be putting up challengers to the Blue Dogs and we need to start early. If we have a progressive congress eight years of Hilary won’t be too much of a disaster.
Tennessean @ 109 says
The vast majority? No, they didn’t ….. even in my little red state people weren’t thrilled.
I can go along with the political vote crap but don’t pull out “the vast majority” shit. It simply isn’t true.
Mauimom @ 101
You are making the mistake of believing you know the mind of the electorate. You sure about that?
I think that if the media engages in sustained bashing of Hilary they will only alienate people and drive them away. People are sick and tired of the vitriol and want nothing to do with it. If the media chooses to go after Hilary they may well end up driving their audience further away from them. Same for the GOP. While there is no doubt a core who will hate the Clintons no matter what. I tend to think that sustained attacks will have a negative effect on people.
Do not assume that you know what others think especially if you base that on information from the media. You don’t know, the Dems don’t know, the GOP doesn’t know, the blogosphere doesn’t know.
The post-debate spin was all about looking at the top tier performances. Truthfully, I think Dodd did better than any of them, but he’s just considered an also-running, and the time given to him reflected that. The guy is smart and comfortable. He never hesitated like, for example, Obama did, to carefully measure his words. He knows who he is, what he stands for, and what his solutions are, and he can discuss any issue they throw at him.
But alas. The media is picking our candidates for us, and we’re letting them.
radiofreewill @ 62
I’d like to sidestep the question of Hillary’s policy stands [although it’s fair game at this point in the primaries] and jump ahead to the general election.
I DEEPLY fear that “she might win” will both motivate the Goopers like crazy [just imagine the tv ads & sermons] AND depress Dem votes.
I believe there are lots of folks out there ready to vote “Not Bush,” but when that means “Hillary,” I fear they’re going to pause and not show up. Her negatives are SO much stronger than any of our other candidates.
It’s one thing to ask voters to “warm up to” or get acquainted with Obama or Edwards, and then become committed voters. It’s quite another to hope that people will overcome their strong dislike of her, even enough to get themselves to the ballot box, to say nothing of contributing $$$ or working their asses off.
Just look at the comments of those here @ FDL who swear they won’t vote for her, will vote Green, etc. That’s Dems & Progressives. Imagine what negative feelings Independents & Republicans [or former/want-to-be-former Repubs] have.
We need EVERY vote, and we can’t afford someone who turns off such a huge segment of the electorate [and strongly motivates the opposition — Repubs who, given their choices, might just stay home].
Tennessean @ 109
Er, no. Why did voters in 2002 support invading Iraq? Because Andy Card rolled out War Product™ for the election.
You’re creating a straw man if you think our problem with Hillary’s vote has anything to do with reflecting the public will.
“The people’s voice is odd: / it is, and it is not the Voice of God.”
Christy has a new post/thread ready.
Tennessean @ 109
And why did the vast majority of Americans want to go to war with Iraq?
You seem to view constructive criticism as an all out assault on a particular person. As I have said, I will vote for her in the general, but not in the primary. I think most people here feel that way.
So what’s wrong with us expressing negative opinions about her or any other candidate? The msm still doesn’t pay that much attention to blogs in terms of who they hype as a front-runner (if they did, they’d pay more attention to Ron Paul), so how can that hurt her chances?
OT – honor to the DFHs protesting the G8. note – from personal experience i disbelieve all accusations of protester violence unless confirmed by independent third parties.
JoeCHI at 108 – The “war on terror” is a joke, like the war on drugs. It has no diminishing effect on terror and creates an atmosphere of fear and racism. I would say that we should have a “war on stupid catchphrases like this”, but I’m guessing it would have about as much effect. In that respect, Edwards is right.
And it makes me sick that Clinton says that Bush’s policies and his war on terror is doing any good in the world at all.
TiredFed @ 121
Here’s my gut feeling on this: Fred Thompson may jump into the ring, but he’ll be out by the end of the year.
TiredFed @ 121
egad. is this what we’ve come to? really??
then we might as well just use “What’s My Line” to choose congr-critters, and “Let’s Make A Deal” for the supremes…
oh…
PeterK @ 111
Wow, someone said hello to me. I’m speechless. Thanks, I’m ok. Everyday I’m still alive is a triumph for me. But I’m slacking off, I should be studying. (no I’m not in school, that was a good 25 years ago).
Sorry for the double post. My computer wasn’t showing the first one.
Wordsmith @ 123
Agreed from my corner of the world.
We can’t confuse the support for attacking Al Qaeda in Afghanistan after 9/11 with what happened with Iraq. Yes, the people were behind the former. W and Darth did their best to conflate the two and the pollsters helped them along with their framing of the poll questions. Once the war started, people jumped aboard to support the troops and again that got conflated with supporting the war. Even at that a sizable chunk of people were outraged about going into Iraq. Now, of course the numbers are overwhelmingly against the war. The neocons never did care what the little people thought. They had their plan in hand many years ago as did W.
{{{{{Scarecrow}}}}}}
You must be exhausted.
So many weenies. So little time.
Thanks again ;->
selise @ 112
What is your evidence that a former first lady and sitting senator wasn’t “pressured by the poltical environment”? If this is just an idea that you have it is a hypothesis. What evidence do you have to support your theory?
Tennessean, there’s not a damn thing wrong with expressing it.
Keep doing it.
Karl Rove has wet dreams about seeing the Dems nominate Hillary.
IMVHO, barring another 9/11, POTUS is the Dems to lose, doesn’t matter who the candidate is. People will vote their pocketbooks and with crude prices driving Cost push inflation the US standard of living will continue to head south.
I think the more “manageable” problem for a communities that are FDL’s size (and the other reality based web communities) the issue is what I’ll call now for lack of a better term, the
Steny HoyerJoe Sestak problem. Sestak doesn’t again imvho really need Blue America’s money to get re-elected. The oligarchies that control corporate America don’t care if they donate to Republicans or Democrats. They will contribute to both parties, just more to whomever they think will win.FWIW, these are the endorsements that Sestak lists on his web site:
If we want to have more leverage with candidates such as Joe, we probably have to find a way to influence groups such as these.
Adie @ 133
I’m not sayin’ we FDLers would choose our reps this way, but the majority of voters (well, enough of them anyway) make an uninformed and personal gut-check choice. gosh, they “elected” GWB WPE. sorry, but that’s the way I see it. and my opinion is only good while the status quo lasts. If Fred drops out or if Al Gore jumps in, all bets are off.
Wordsmith; A*PAC owns Hillary. Lock, stock, and barrel.
Do you think the fact that the Isrealis will view a troop withdrawal from Iraq with about the same equanimity as an outbreak of Ebola in downtown Tel Aviv, might have some effect on her positions and views about the war?
pseudonymous in nc @ 127
I don’t think this is a strawman position at all. I remember those times and as I recall (I could be wrong of course.) the people were overwhelming in their support for war with Iraq. At the time something like 70 percent of people thought that Saddam was responsible for 9-11. So yeah, the propaganda was working just fine.
We’re all tired of Wild (unaccountable) Cowboy Leadership and being told what to do by “Do as I say, not as I do” GOP Hypocrites.
With Bush as the current standard for male leadership, there will never be a better time for women to establish themselves as “equals” in every sense of the word through a Hillary presidency.
Hillary would put a harpoon in the GOP’s Oppressive Male-perogative Culture in ‘08.
And, it’s hard to estimate just how sick and tired of Authoritarianism ALL of America is…
noen @ 135
Glad you’re ok. Curious about the rest. If you’d like to respond offsite, maybe the mod will give you my email (I’d rather not post it).
I agree. Watching the debate right now, Hillary comes off again as a hawk. Instead of expanding or debating Edwards’ criticism of the War on Terra, she takes advantage of the flat sound of Edwards’ “Bumper sticker”, and uses the ol’ 9/11 handwringing (also very flat) to try and discredit Edwards. No debate whatsoever, just Cheney/Bush talking points.
Great. You have a woman generally acknowledged to have hit a home run in the debate last night, but she’s going to get beaten by a tired, old phony who looks like nothing so much as a cartoon hound dog? Is this insulting train of thought predicated on her being Hillary or being a woman? Either way, it’s appalling. How much better does she have to be than a third-tier actor for you folks to take her seriously? A hundred times? A thousand times? You want to talk inauthentic? Fred Thompson didn’t even get into the race until he was sure the other Repubs were tearing each other to pieces. And when America gets a look at his much, much younger trophy wife and hears about his reputation for laziness (shades of W!), I don’t think the reaction is gonna be so positive. So please tell me who (except the thirty per centers who’d vote for Satan before Hillary) is going to make up this landslide for Thompson?
TiredFed @ 140
But there will also be a gut level vote for Hilary because she is a woman and lots of people think it is time we had a woman for pres. Don’t underestimate that. Add to it that people are really disgusted with the GOP and will reject the media if they demonize her and I think she can win, and win big.
Tanbark @ 144
A*PAC doesn’t speak for the majority of Israelis.
Obama and Hillary (has a little chuckle) look put out on when Edwards castigates them for last minute supplemental voting. They just come back looking ugly. They don’t even address Edwards except to say he’s not in the Senate so he doesn’t know what it’s like. *whine*
Tanbark @ 144
A*PAC doesn’t speak for the majority of Israeli’s.
noen @ 139
working hypothesis only. but not w/o evidence. evidence is her own words and prowar positions. looking for contradictory evidence.
Let’s not forget Biden saying that campaigns should receive public financing. It would be great to have that idea front and center.
See mine at 82.
dalloway @ 146
I take her very seriously. Do you? I am a woman and I am listening to her and I want to get beyond Clinton. I believe they greased the way for Chimpy in some ways. This country deserves better.
Tanbark @ 144
Geez, I don’t know – do you think? The question is pretty damned leading.
I’m not a supporter of Hillary so please, don’t start asking me about Hillary, the Israelis or A*PAC.
dalloway at 149 — Before you go any further on the high horse, I believe that TiredFed’s Thompson comment was intended as snarky. Let’s all take a deep breath and remember that sometimes people say things for the sake of a giggle, and not as a means to offend everyone else.
Politics is serious business, but everything people say about it is not intended to be taken literally and seriously — sometimes, the benefit of the doubt or a re-read can go a long, long way.
Oh G**, I hate Joe Biden. He’s such a fake.
selise @ 150
Bob Somerby has some contradictory evidence. Pages of it.
Imvho, Thompson is the ‘Daddy’ candidate for the Goopers, but he’ll come in through the back door as a replacement for Cheney (who’ll resign for reasons of leaky health) and then pardon Bush (who will resign and RUN away.)
Then, it will be President Thompson running for election in ‘08, while Smirky and Shooter laugh their way into retirement behind their pardons.
Of course, if this happens, Thompson will simply be a ‘pick-up-the-pieces’ candidate for the Party. Anyone that pardons Bush will not be popular enough to win…
PeterK @ 143
Sure.
mui @ 154
agreed. bill clinton policies like nafta (see chris hedges comments, here and here, from yesterday) and media consolidation helped get us bush the lesser. and he’s so bad it makes another clinton look good.
good cop, bad cop. they’re not the same thing – but they’re on the same side.
radiofreewill @ 158
I think you have better odds of wining the lottery than of this scenario happening. Which is around 85 million to 1.
selise @ 164
*secret handshake*
mui @ 156
Oh, I don’t know, I think he is a very genuine blowhard. hehe
15 minutes into this debate, Edwards wins the prize for me for admitting he was wrong on Iraq.
Gang, we do not give out other people’s e-mails. We have facilitated communication in emergency situations or for political action reasons in the past, but we cannot get in the habit of playing postman for everyone who reads the site — otherwise, the folks who write and the mods would be doing nothing else but passing along notes. We try to protect privacy as much as we possibly can — thanks!
noen @ 158
checked your link – don’t see anything about senator clinton’s vote for the iraq war. did you give me the wrong link?
i’m more and more interested in dodd…he seems to be ‘principled’…
/
I hope Gravel stays in the race, I like the way he nips at Obama and Hillary’s feet. I like his statement on moral judgment. I would like this to move out of the DCCC into a progressive race.
mui@156–
I take her very seriously and I’m delighted that she, like Edwards, Obama and the rest of the Democratic field are intelligent, thoughtful candidates who clearly want the best for this country and its people, as opposed to the Republicans who all seem to be after the same power and money as the current junta. I don’t believe Clinton “greased the way” for Chimpy — the breathtaking incompetence and criminality of this administration were hard for any of us to foresee. When Clinton voted for the AUMF, I it was an agonizing choice: do you support your president during a war or do you cast what you know will be a symbolic vote against him because invading Iraq entails huge risks? In hindsight, sure, she should have known better than to trust Bush/Cheney. But I’d be willing to bet that she decided on the basis of what previous presidents, including her husband would have done, ie. acted responsibly and exhausted every option short of war.
selise @ 166
No, the Daily Howler has been tracking the media’s distortions of Hilary for quite sometime now. So consider it a recommendation that you put it on your top tier list of blogs.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 158
Sorry, Christy. I guess all the Hillary-bashing gets on my nerves and I momentarily lost my sense of humor.
Biden on immigration=O. He voted for fences, talks of criminals. As if. Coc*aine. As if. As did Obama. Fences.
The governor of N.Mexico earns points on immigration.
Gravel loses points saying English should be official language of U.S. It is not the offical language as far as I know. Hillary points out differences between national recognition and official. She makes good points related to NYC.
Related topic:
Democrats plan a Capitol barrage over Iraq, from the LA Times.
WASHINGTON — “Democratic congressional leaders, whose efforts to force a withdrawal from Iraq were stymied last month, plan a summer of repeated Iraq-related votes designed to force Republican lawmakers to abandon the White House before the fall.
At the same time, antiwar groups are expanding their campaign to pressure GOP incumbents in their home states.
Both efforts seek to ensure that anxious Republican lawmakers — many of whom have said they want to wait until September to assess President Bush’s Iraq strategy — get no break from the war over the summer.”
The debate last night left me hoping that Al Gore will get in the race. We definately need a great experienced world-class leader at this time…and I did not see evidence of this kind of leadership in the debate.
Wordsmith 158; “The question is pretty damn leading”
I believe the question is pretty damn real.
Hillary HAS to vote in Isreal’s interests; that’s what senators from New York DO, if they want to keep their seat. Hell, at the time she probably BELIEVED that invading Iraq was just the thing to do.
BUT! 21 other democratic senators did not believe it.
Edwards has publicly and unequivocally eaten HIS enabling vote; twice. I firmly believe that with what is coming down the pike in Iraq, he’s going to have to do it a few more times. Which will be only fair, IMHO. :o)
But are we to let Hillary skate on that, and duck the question of whether or not she thinks the invasion was, no bullshit about it, a mistake? She may be able to get away with that with some democrats and some voters, now, but does anyone on here think that the level of voter disgust and anger at what is happening in Iraq is going to improve, or even stay the same?
John Casper 151; Do you think that the “majority of Isrealis” view an american withdrawal from Iraq as something that’s beneficial to them?
This little discussion is NOT rocket science.
Hillary Clinton has been in bed with george bush and the warbots from the gitgo. Now, with Iraq imploding around their (and her) ears, she is trying desperately to get OUT of the bed. But she wants to SNEAK out, without even having to say:
“Really, folks. I got drunk and it was just a one-night stand. Didn’t mean a thing to me.”
I’m sorry, guys, but most of us in the progressive wing of the party aren’t going to let her off that easily.
fresh thread upstairs
IMHO Hillary will serve to energize a dispirited Republican Party. They will roll out all the red meat..Monica, Vince Foster, Travelgate, Whitewater…and the base will respond like Pavlov’s dog.
I was in NH recently to check out Edwards. I bumped into an activist Dem I know. We were both there just checking things out, not committed. Of course, Hillary came up in the conversation. I referenced my concerns here and she responded by saying “but Hillary won over the blue collar folks in upstate NY.” Well who was she running against? Does anyone even remember frat boy Rick Lazio who entered after Rudy pulled out? And her most recent rival John Spencer? He didn’t even get help from the Nat’l Republican Party. On second look, Clinton’s victories really don’t seem all that impressive to me.
The National Republican Party will not concede the election the way the NY State Republican Party appears to have done in the last two senatorial elections.
Let’s not hand them the ammunition they need.
Simply put, IMHO, if Hillary is the candidate one can expect 4 more years of Republican rule. Very much like Kerry was the “electable” candidate in’04…and he wasn’t elected.
JR
Ed Deevy @ 178
Al Gore. Waiting on Al Gore. I want him to enter this race, and I am getting p’oed that he doesn’t.
Richardson wants Medicare 55 and over. I love it.
I always thought that the most poisonous talking point was the way Bush used 9/11 to invade Iraq.
I just think we’re floating too many definitions of GWOT out there. I think Edwards was trying to debunk the notion of GWOT as a war with military action, but as you said it’s a tough sell, a very tough sell. Clinton gets so much criticism for trying to “blur” her record, and yet when she refuses to go along with the rhetorical “bumper sticker” GWOT, she’s getting blasted for that too.
noen @ 171
the daily howler is already on my list.
in response to this, you claimed there was plenty of contradictory evidence, in senator clinton’s own words, for my working hypothesis on clinton’s vote for the iraq war.
i still haven’t seen any. and i am very interested seeing it… and changing my view if justified.
my evidence was her own words – and not media distortion of them. the topic of media distortion and the daily howler are distractions from the topic of why senator clinton voted for the iraq aumf.
Dalloway 175: do you mean the “Hillary bashing” like:
“Sen. Clinton, do you, or do you not, view the invasion of Iraq as a mistake?
Which we couldn’t do, when she was on here?
That kind of Hillary bashing?
Kucinich wins point on challenging insurance companies.
selise @ 185
My reaction is directly to what she says in the debate, as it is now. I give her credit for some things, but *not* on her Iraq votes. & Joe Biden s*ucks the most.
What if we speak the truth of what the Iraq War is really about. All the candidates on both sides feed the little people with topics filled with moral righteouness, moral authority, terrorism, fearmongering, war, etc…. What if they actually discuss the truth of why we invaded Iraq? And it’s not about WMD’s, not terrorism, not that Saddam Hussein was a ‘bad’ man, not some terrorist group hiding under your bed. What if we talk about the hegemony of the US Dollar? That the US dollar has not been backed by gold since Nixon (see Bretton Woods), rather that the dollar is backed by black gold, oil. And the point of us being in Iraq and building military bases and threatening Iran is to protect the dollar and prevent the euro from becoming the standard world currency. What would be the consequences economically for us if the dollar loses it’s hegemony as the premier world currency?
“The war is not only being carried out with a view to taking over Iraq’s oil reserves, it is intended to cancel the contracts of rival Russian and European oil companies as well as exclude France, Russia and China from the region.
3. Money and currency systems: clash between the Euro and the Dollar.
What is at stake is the rivalry between two competing global currencies: the Euro and the U.S. dollar, The process of European monetary integration has encroached upon the hegemony of the US dollar.
The process of dollarisation, which is ultimately an instrument of economic conquest is undermined by the Euro.
Wall Street is clashing with competing Franco-German financial interests. The war in Iraq pertains not only to control over reserves of petroleum, the control over money creation and credit is an integral part of the process of economic conquest.”
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO303B.html
http://www.feasta.org/documents/papers/oil1.htm
As Americans, are we willing to allow the US dollar to lose it’s hegemony as the premier world currency and allow the euro world dominance? What would be the economic consequences to us? That’s the conundrum.
Jewish Voice for Peace.org/
Tanbark, most Americans view withdrawal from Iraq “as something beneficial to them,” how is that working out?
As far as I am concerned you’re making statements that are consistent with a refined version of anti-semitism. Please prove me wrong.
American public wants actors and good looking.
Republican nominee will be Fred Thompson.
Dems should run next best thing- John Edwards- he is good looking plus Southern plus actually has good ideas for moving country forward.
mui @ 184
agreed. (and about gore too).
but my push back was specific to the person who told me there was lots of contradictory evidence (in senator clinton’s own words) about why she voted for the iraq war… and then kept telling me i was wrong w/o giving any evidence.
of course, i could be wrong (i am all the time, it wouldn’t be anything new)… but i really would like to see some evidence so i would have something analyze.
probably i’m just too easily irked by assertions w/o evidence.
Tanbark, most Americans view withdrawal from Iraq “as something beneficial to them,” how is that working out?
Tanbark this looks like a group you’d enjoy supporting: Jewish Voice for Peace.org/
selise @ 191
There are a lot of aggressive Hillary partisans. I wonder why Dodd is getting so sidelined in this debate.
When is one of them going to say that s/he would immediately work with Congress to legally prune away the excessive power of the Imperial Presidency, Unitary Executive, call it what you wish: the excessive concentration of power in the hands of POTUS that has happened since Nixon and which has destroyed the balance (and separation) of powers in the federal gov’t?
I suspect that people here do not want a president who likes the taste of freedom from restraint.
50 pretty much summarizes it.
Being President is about more than looking good – it is about having good judgment. Hillary saying that her Iraq judgment was based on her “trust” of Bush is really no different than Bush’s moments looking deep into Putin’s eyes and seeing a good soul.
I’d love to see Dodd get traction, am leaning Edwards, but whether he disappoints you at times or not, you have to give to Obama the fact that he has exercised some of the best judgment to date.
I’m an old time Hillary supporter – from when she was first lady an again when she moved to NY to run and ran. So I’m not coming from a place of old antagonism. I still remember one of the first WH kerfuffles, when she was miked andtalked about people being screwed (with concern for them) and was pilloried.
But she lost me completely and irrevocably over the years of her handling of the war and lack of leadership. She and Bill had lots of choices of what to do in CT and her later day lukewarm gestures to Lamont don’t keep her from “owning” Lieberman. I think that is exactly the kind of judgment she will exercise and I’m viscerally disappointed in her recurring attitude, framing and refusal or inability to lead on the war; her attitude, framing and refusal or inability to lead on illegal wiretaps; her attitude, framing and refusal and inability to lead on torture and habeas, etc.
It will sound dorky, but I think what we need is a moral leader. I’m not seeing much in the way of leaders anywhere – Republican or Democratic parties. But on the moral front, Dodd’s answer as to what he would do as soon as elected shows why I wish he were getting more traction.
If I can’t respect Hilary’s values or position on something as basic as torture – where she has been a silent runner for years now – how could I ever vote for her?
Whatever your perception of the
Dodd makes sense on energy. Have to check his site. He seems the most prepared and comprehensive of all the candidates actually. Gravel. As prez there’s nothing I’m going to do to lower the price of gasoline.
I love him. Hilarious.
I want an authentic progressive candidate, someone whose policies will be based on principle, not political expediency. There’s no way Hillary Clinton can meet this simple test.
Oh my g*dess, why let Biden weigh in *at all*? He’s the most emptiest of the empty suits , a peer only to the least emptiest of empty Republikans.
Tanbark @ 98
I have to agree with you. If you were a low-info voter watching our very own democratic version of republican — fair enough. But she as inauthenic as she comes. Dangerously “inauthenic” when it comes to our foreign policy. Be careful what you think you will be getting.
Having seen how Blair got trapped by the powers that be, Hillary may look like the Dem media darling now, but if she makes it through she has too many favors to payback A*P*C being only one of them. Puppet #II.
Monk @ 180
The first line says it in a nutshell…Hillary will galvanize a dispirited Republican party. And isn’t this really all that the two parties are good for? They help each other, kind of like a volleyball team keeping the ball in the air on its side of the net by passing it among players until one of them spikes it over the net and the other side falls face first into the sand.
Then the same thing happens for awhile with the other side controlling the ball.
The only problem is we are the ball, constantly passed around from great white hope to great white hope, from wedge issue to wedge issue, from election to election ad nauseum.
Whether a Republican or a Democrat wins in 2008 makes no difference…the Pentagon will still be doling out obscene amounts of money to contractors, money will still pass under the table and find its way to the freezer in someone’s office; kids will still starve in this country, workers will still get screwed, families will still live a couple of paychecks away from having to send every family member off to work at Wal-Mart or some other substitute for the welfare system Hillary’s husband gladly destroyed for the GOP.
It’s the system people, the underlying rot upon which our government is precariously sitting. This administration just happens to have exposed the nastiness a bit more to everyone, but it’s always been there, more so since the founding of the National Security State.
Do away with the CIA, DIA, thoroughly vet everyone in Justice and every other agency that regulates our lives and that will be a start.
This can only go on so long before the whole festering mess explodes…there is no difference between a Democrat and a Republican, no matter what Hillary Clinton says…they are two sides of the same coin and they and the people who feed off their statements and rationalize their outloks and the entire system under which we live are just different shades of the same bullsh*t.
And just for the record…Clinton is not all that well liked in New York for her representation of Entergy’s interests at Indian Point.
Edwards IMHO had a good one: The duty of the prez is to lead not to legislate.
Oh crap. Obama wants to increase the size of the military ?!? Kucinich wants to cut and slice and dice the fat.
John Casper 2 193:
“Most americans view withdrawal from Iraq “as something beneficial to them”.
Really, John? You could have fooled me. I thought they just viewed it CLEARLY AND UNSPINNABLY as the lesser of two evils.
And if you think differently, why don’t you put up a little Ben Franklin ledger listing the plusses for withdrawing, as opposed to the minuses? I’d like to discuss that with you.
As for the Jewish “peace” groups, I’ll just leave to the people on here, AND the voters, to decide whether or not their influence with Hillary approaches that of AIP*C. :o)
james @ 201
I disagree wholeheartedly. I once read that Chinese intellectuals said the good thing about the Mao regime was that it was so disastrous that radical reforms had to take place afterwards. I think a lot of us feel that way about ChimpCo.
BTW, John; the reason the withdrawal isn’t working out too well is that george bush, the man who sent the troops there, and who could start pulling them out with a flick of his bic, isn’t getting enough pressure from the republican party (which voted almost unanimously, to support him in the “sending”) to do it. But in the next few months, and long before November of 2008, that is going to change drastically. :o)
And, because the GOP congers are too chickenshit to put THEIR names on de-funding legislation, along with the democrats.
(Both parties know what’s coming in Iraq, they are BOTH shitting green nickels. Hence, the dance.)
selise @ 90
Yes, you’re right. That was the “failure” I was referring to above. I think she learned from that failure.
You’re also correct to ask for specifics, which I can’t say I’m chock-full of. Really I’m going on a general impression that the Clinton administration worked by carrying on a dialog with the country (including Republicans) to try to get things done. This may be a mis-impression but I really don’t think so.
Frankly I also liked her answer about “don’t ask, don’t tell” last night. She said straightforwardly, this was a transitional policy, it’s all that could be accomplished given Congressional opposition at the time. That’s part of a focus on process too, to talk openly about where the country is and has been, and how to get where we want to go step by step.
i envision the following poster : 2 fotos, 2 slogans. Hillary Clinton, “Been there, done that”. Al Gore, “Been there, too. Still doing better.”
This is the framing and attitude I don’t get. Iraq was not at war with us – what did the AUMF have to do with supporting a president during a war? And no one should be criticized for voting against invading Iraq IF IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO because is entailed risk. The problem wasn’t the risk it entailed – the problem is that it was the morally wrong choice.
Secondarily, it was logistically stupid, but primarily – it was morally wrong. That is where I continue to have the big disconnect. Hilary never even begins to question the morality of going and bombing villages and killing people – imposing the death sentence on them, civilians and children as well.
That is what the decision to go to war entails – the willingnees to kill civlians, including their children and infants. If you are going to make that decision, you need to have some justice behind you for imposing such a terrible sentence on a population.
Hilary has sat on the armed services committee and never showed any leadership on the moral issues of torture. She never will, bc it ruins her “support the troops – aren’t I strong” personna to say, “when we do evil we should be punished.”
I expected more from her years ago, by now, I’m resigned to this being the best we get. I don’t mean that as Hilary bashing, bc I would never have been so disappointed if I didn’t expect more from her years back.
She did prove last night that she could look at the morally indefensible and convincingly say, “Well, at least I’d make the trains run on time.”
I think anyone who is supporting her should be happy after last night, because she is putting a lock on her lead. I don’t want to bash Hilary, I just want to look at our possible leadership options and feel something other than sadness.
HIllary’s biggest liabilty is her inability to define herself, which of course leads to others defining her. Last night may have been a step forward, but I think that will be an exception. She’s simply too willing to let the issues play out until she can take a non-confrontational “position”; she’s not a leader in any sense of the word.
Guys, when John Edwards said that “The war on terror” was a bumper-sticker slogan, which to me, is a MUCH finer and more courageous thing to say than making fun of Rice and Cheyney’s diplomatic “efforts”, guess who fell all over herself to diss him for saying it?
(smile and wink, right here… :o) )
BTW, I agree that a Clinton nomination is the best-case scenario for the GOP.
Oh my g*dess, why let Biden weigh in *at all*?
He gets to keep unspent campaign funds?
I agree that a Clinton nomination is the best-case scenario for the GOP.
Hillary vs McCain, I stay home.
Hillary vs Romney, I stay home.
Hillary vs Rudy, I vote for Rudy.
Hillary vs Fred, I vote for Fred.
Hillary vs Ron Paul, I blow my brains out ;->
All fish swimming in a polluted stream are polluted, even the ones that look real good. Hillary is just another fish. Nothing particularly wrong with her intrinsically. She’s still polluted, though. If we don’t want polluted fish, we’ve either got to clean up the stream or go fishing elsewhere.
I wont vote for her. Period. She will continue the GOP foreign policy that believes we have a right to bomb anyone who behaves in a manner our corporations do not like. She will continue a permanent military presence in Iraq. She will continue the disgraceful and criminal palatial “embassy” in Iraq (in truth, it is an Iraq government overlord proxy government).
When she says “end the war and get our troops out, it means bring home all but 20,000 to 30,000 of them. She will not fix healthcare, but will continue more of the same HMO bullshit that she created in the first place. She will triangulate on everything, including reproductive choice.
I simply will not vote for her.
Worst of all, she refuses to accept responsibility for her blatant and crystal clear mistake on voting FOR an illegal attack against a non-aggressor nation. She wont apologize and that is unforgivable.
Mary at 210; my 2c, a heckuva good post.
The posit that we were “at war” when bush and the Koolaid brewmeisters were so busily and dishonestly cooking up the first big batch, is straight out of Rove’s playbook. It’s nonsense.
We were attacked by a tiny group of fanatics (mostly, Saudis…evil grin, here…thanks, Larue. :o) ) with NO connection with Iraq whatsoever.
It was one of the most despicable and stupid bait-and-switch sales in history.
To ask us to excuse Hillary’s vote for it, when she won’t even say it was a mistake, is too much. WAAAY too much.
Her refusal is a weather-cock for what she really thinks about the invasion and attempted occupation of Iraq.
Mary @ 198
Mary–thanks for your eloquent and heartfelt posts on HC. What is your take on Burce Webb @ 88? I’m curious. We have a tension between the moral and the (politically) practical here, I think.
mui @ 207
So you really think kids in this country won’t be starving and that the welfare of the moribund middle class will radically change if a bought and paid for Democrat gets elected?
Who do you think any Dmoecratic president is going to listen to when there are no cameras around: a child crying in hunger or the guy from JP Morgan/Chase or the HMO industry who wants just a little relief from the immense burden of having to actually spend some of the dollars it’s getting on the people who need it most?
Radical changes call for radical means to implement them and I don’t see one Democrat with the balls to do what is necessary to fix this country.
The deeper logic is a Biblical one on the part of the neocons. There is no other reason for it. It is why A I P A C must be appeased. It is rooted in the Bible. Period. The neocon’s goal also makes clear just why bush and his supporters can speak the words “The war is going fine”, “We’re making progress”. If you put aside the stated reasons for this war, “to bring freedom and democracy to Iraq and make it self governing” (which is NOT happening), then what they are saying is true. If their intended purpose, as stated by the neocons, is to destablize the region, gain land for Israel, remove the threat of attack for Israel……. well then they ARE proceeding quite nicely indeed. Make no mistake they are “staying the course” here and it is going well….. for the neocon goals. Hillary will continue those goals. I have no doubt.
Ploof @ 215
True, but he’s refined the art of torture by use of rhetoric. Rhetoric and hairplugs, just what the country needs. Hee Haw.
Scarecrow – That’s the same clip Jane used last night. Here’s my same response:
Well, that ‘tube sounds fine. She did well at her posturing for the A I P A C nod. Clearly, she’s started her general election campaign.
She did sound good, childish with the actions though. She did lead the others, which is only indicative of the fact we gotta find someone better than this crop!
Here’s what I heard:
blah blah blah blah “I didn’t READ the NIE”
blah blah blah “9/11″ blah “9/11″ blah blah “We ARE safer now” blah blah.
Huge error crediting bushco with anything!
How in the hell can you make a decision when you haven’t read the NIE???? Plus, her not reading it, probably ever, demonstrates how she can conclude “We ARE safer now”.
Now that’s just one more reason to add to my hard and fast list of candidate requirements: 1)NO family members, 2)NO one who voted for the war, 3)NO one who doesn’t do their homework and says so, 4) NO one who thinks we’re safer now and says so, 5) NO one who is going to run on the “9/11 terrr terrr fear fear” platform.
To the Gore-ons: Let it go will ya. He’s right where he needs to be and I like him there in his role as it stands now. He’s moved on and so should we.
Thanks ;)
james @ 221
You haven’t been listening to our leftie agitators like Kucinich, then. Changes don’t happen over night. But the fact that we don’t have freakin school lunches and money for kids who can’t afford books and uniforms in CT, well that’s a start. And in Edwards or the like, we will have someone we can do business with. FDR didn’t change the country over night, but he did relieve those in famine territory. Deng Xiaopeng didn’t change the problems of the MC overnight (and also created new problems), but at least the freaking famine was ended and the gang of 4 was put in jail. Yes, I think that we are pushing hard for another progressive era. Have faith.
I hardly ever post on this site, but I read it daily–sometimes several times a day.
I like Clinton. I think she did a fantastic job in last night’s debate, and it seems to me that the negative comments about her from the liberal/progressive blogosphere demonstrate a bias that has more to do with gender than her positions or her political skills. Obama’s positions seem to me about the same as hers. And Edwards, who I like quite a bit, voted for the war in Iraq just as she did.
I like Gore very much, and wanted to see him run. I’m not as sure now about that as I was even a week or so ago.
I am beginning to gravitate toward Clinton and beginning also to resent the ad hominem attacks against her showing up, well at the popular progressive blogs.
Maybe it’s because I’m older, lived through the women’s liberation movement of the 1970s, and I remember when there were very few women in high political office. I’d love to see a woman president, and a Democratic woman president…especially at this time…would be tremendous.
I agree with Coral.
All this dumping on Clinton because she’s “ambitious,” “inauthentic,” “determined” is pure sexism.
Screw that.
Scarecrow @ 16
good morning, all
i hear many suggesting that Obama scored with his remark about Edwards being 4.5 yrs late to the war/leadership issue. i found that a bit ironic, considering that Obama then was doing what he accuses Edwards of doing now – sitting on the outside and saying what the right vote is. I give Obama credit for coming out against the war when he wasn’t in the US Senate to go on public record as a vote against the war. I do wonder how he would have voted, if it was a vote he had to cast though. Would he really have gone with Kucinich, Kennedy, and a small handful of others? I wonder …
eludesaccusesThe Anti-Hillary feelings are NOT sexist. Give me a break. They are purely substantive. Hillary, not Edwards, not Obama, not Al Sharpton, not Tipper Gore, created our HMO nightmare. Hillary IS fully in the pockets of the insurance companies as well as big corporations like Wal-mart (hello! on the friggin board of wal-mart!).
Hillary is FOR the Iraq invasion but merely upset that it was not properly conducted. It is irrelevant HOW it is or was conducted, it was wrong from the beginning and cannot, in any way, shape, or form be made right. Out. 100% out. No military presence at all. Scale down the Embassy to be more in tune with those in any other country. No permanent bases. Nothing. Iraq made US-free except for a small (minimal) ambassadorial presence.
She is for staying and she WILL have us stay. She is for threatening Iran with military attacks exactly like Bush. She believes we have a right to claim overlordship of the Middle East. No. We. Do. Not. There is NOTHING there that belongs to us.
She is more of the same with softer corners. That’s all.
Tanbark, this is your framing:
If you don’t like it, try something else.
Scarecrow, another fair post. You doin’ good, son. :o)
And, that was an execellent thought about how Obama might have voted, if he’d been in the senate in 2002. It would sure be tougher than being on the outside.
Again, 29 democrats voter to “authorize” but 21 voted not to.
Hmmm…think we could find “a few good men” or women, out of that 21? ?
Praedor: first-rate rant!
I too, am tired of getting beat with the “sexist” stick, for pointing out the truth about Hillary. I am SOOO ready for a lady Prez; just not THIS lady, and I don’t believe the country is ready for her, either. In spades.
We will get hammered, if the dems are stupid enough to nominate her. She’s the one democratic candidate who can keep the white house in republican hands.
John, until you answer it, I don’t NEED to try anything else. :o)
Tanbark @ 98
Amen.
Mary@211–
I suspect Clinton feels the same way you do about bombing women and children and about torture. Is she making political calculations in not speaking out against these things and offering better moral leadership? Absolutely. Is that worse than speaking out, being relegated (however unfairly) to the “loonie left,” rendered unelectable, and thus unable ever to affect policy? I think Clinton’s looking at how the political system in this country is, not how we’d like it to be. And my possibly foolish hope, is that if elected, she’d work to undo the horrors of the Bush administration, including the war, and restore the Constitution, which would be moral leadership enough for me.
Correction @225 “left-wing agitator” was used tongue and cheek.
Agree with Praedor Atrebates @230. I am not so much anti-Hillary, as horrified at the prospect of another president who can’t seem to get out of the “us” v. “them” frame. She has betrayed this too many times, as has Biden, and Obama. Democrats sorely need to reframe this conflict. She does not do it, instead she reiterates Chimpy in different ways. She sounds one way during the debates and then on some talk show she’ll talk x-tra hawkish. It scares me, as much as Joe Biden scares me and as much as Obama & nukes scare me, but not as bad as Rudy Giuliani scares me. There is so much sexist talk among Republikans that Hillary supporters seem to define any kind of opposition as sexist, when the real issue is that she is not a progressive. I truly believe she disdains progressives, e.g. Ned Lamont and she sides with the conservative Chuck Schumer, Rahm Emmanuel, election-losing, money grubbing side of the party.
And BTW. Just love the note she sent out to the DTCs before the nomination in CT saying what a great guy HoJoe was and how stellar his record on Social Security and Medicare is. I believe Howie Klein must still have a copy of that flyer.
Praedor Atrebates @ 230
She is counting on (1) no accountability for past conduct based upon general disgust with Bush ; (2) passing out lots of favors just like in the first two Clinton administration; (3) surrounding herself with “loyal” (this means personally ambitious) people; (4) playing the woman card on an as needed bais; (5) doing nothing to rock the boat; and (6)marginalizing her personal exposure on every step she takes
NOTHING will energize the Republican Base more that Hillary being nominated. For the good of the Party, for the good of the Country, for the good of the World, she should get out now! Stop this vanity campaign project and show some selfless patriotism for once in her life.
Praedor@230
Excellent points!!! Thank you.
Coral, I am a woman probably of the same age group as you. I must say voting for a woman just because she’s a woman seems to me to diminish women everywhere.
I believe those who say “I wouldn’t vote for her because she’s a woman” are sexist and I believe those who say “I’d vote for a woman because I want to see a woman president” are equally as sexist.
It would be tremendous to see a woman president; Hillary Clinton is not the one.
Merits, beliefs, alliances, and their record is all I’m basing my evaluation on for President of the United States for all the candidates. I believe that’s called equality.
coral @ 226
Being Anti-Hillary has nothing to do with being sexist, America is more that ready for a “pants suit president” just not THIS pant suit president.
dalloway @ 235
You are one of the good persons she is counting on. And believe it or not, it will never happen with her. The hope that Hillary Clinton is anything more than a petty office seeker is a waste of time. So how to be against Hillary and to be an effective force for progressive change is the challenge
Tanbark @ 233
LMAO.
What this?
“Really, John? You could have fooled me. I thought they just viewed it CLEARLY AND UNSPINNABLY as the lesser of two evils.”
MyrtleJune; big, (NON-Sexist) smooch.- :o)
John, are you Okay?
That quote was about the american people.
Now: do you think that most ISRAELIS want our troops to start leaving Iraq? :o)
My point is, that all we need to do to get Hillary’s triangulating butt out of the race (to make room for someone who CAN be elected)
is just keep asking her specific questions, beginning with “do you think that the invasion was a mistake?”
And continuing to: “do you support a pre-emptive strike on Iran?”
Along with: “SecDef Gates, and White House spokesliar, Tony Snow, are now trying to “frame” (gotta use those quotes, nowadays…) the Iraq war in terms of the same half-century committment that we have in Korea. Are you in favor of this?”
That’ll do for starters. :o)
I agree with your summary of Ms. Clinton and how she did last night, but I have to say, nothing she said convinced me to budge one iota on my position, which is if HRC is the Democratic nominee, I’m voting for one of my cats.
HRC is Republican lite. She is not the woman she was when she described a “Vast, right-wing conspiracy” which indeed existed, and which still exists today.
Instead, she has joined that consipracy in the name of enriching herself. Sorry, if HRC is nominated, I’m sitting this one out. She’s not electable, anyway.
Good analysis in this recap of Hillary. She should have joined Edwards in his attack on the misuse of the “war on terror” to cover every sin, to justify every misdirection and crime of the Bush administration. She could have equally said to Blitzer, “We Democrats are united in saying that what began as a war against a criminal organization in Afghanistan has been extended to justify policies of deception and aggressive intervention that were never part of our intent to protect America from Al Qaeda’s hatred of America.”
Tanbark…. why I nevahhh!!! LOLOLOL
Thanks dude. ;)
I really want to know more about the think tanks the candidates plan to employ. For decades now they have played a major role from our foreign to our domestic economic policies. Almost the entire Foreign Policy Board are NeoCons. For critical issues our leaders look to AEI, Manhattan Institute and the Cato Institute for advice. I certainly want to know why? I want to know who the Democratic Nominee plans to put into key positions before he/she is the single choice we are supposed to get behind.
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 73
I’d argue it already IS!
Tired Fed 143
I understand.
Sorry to disappear on you. Warner Cable is messing with our service today & for hours, we couldn’t get FDL or Huffpost, but we COULD get BBC News.
bandwidth monkeybidness???
whatever. i was feelin’ downright paranoid there for awhile.
but at least the tomatoes got weeded & the peppers pampered, since the toobz was useless w/o the Lake, heh.
larue @ 249
& rover’s all he thinks he needs as a [think] tank…
leftdcin72 @ 79
Slam Dunk!!! Rightous post, hoss.
This is NO time in our lives to be worried about PC, or anything else.
The government has been corrupted and comprimised, our politics are driven by corporate and profiteering interests, the interests of the MASSES have been forsaken and excluded in light of profit, and HRC represents only the status quo of all of that. It’s NOTHING about her gender, or Obama’s skin color.
As long as our foreign policy’s are based on corporatization of the globe and interventionist actions for profit and control the interests and the CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS of the MASSES of the USA will come a dead last to all other priorities.
Our middle class will slowly disappear (it’s gone, let’s face it), more money and power will concentrate into the 1% and we will be living in a feudal state and WE will be the lackey vassal servants.
Hell, we already are, to much extent.
All this upper middle class pseudo liberal claptrap is the kinda stuff that would make Steve Gilliard’s BULLSHIT detector ring for eternity.
Make NO mistake about it, and FESS UP TO IT FDL And Pups, us ‘liberals’ are HUGELY divided about what’s important.
Far too many ‘liberals’ are establishment elites who profess to have the best interests of the common poor at heart. Like Hilary, they don’t, but they’ll say and do anything to gain power.
I think the 8 years of the Clinton Presidency is ample proof of their approach . . . not as corrupt OUTWARDLY as BoyKing, but, as we lay complacent and uncaring, they enacted legislation and conducted themselves in quite a UNITARY EXECUTIVE fashion. A slightly warmer water in the frogpot is THEIR version of holding onto what they have, as opposed to the full boil the Neocons and Boy King have been using since the FIRST stolen election. Heck, see Newt 1984 Contract On America. Same people.
Anyway THOSE kinds of ‘liberals’ do not have MY best interest at heart anymore than the Fundie’s/Neocons do.
Is there a candidate who can take us OUT of this NOW? NO! Not one election, no way can that one election undue the damages done to our republic.
So, which candidate WILL lean towards SEEKING a long term effort to regaining the lost civil rights and constitutional adherements we used to have?
THAT should be the top of mind awareness any self professed ‘liberal’ should be concerned with.
The rest is pure status quo, and you only have to look to the example of Nazi Germany’s rise to power to understand what’s at stake HERE.
Harumph.
Good thread, though . . (wink)
121064 @ 245
Hillary is Joe Lieberman in DRAG!
RevDeb @ 81
Right on RevDeb . . . despite my proclivity to post in the negative often, I AM thrilled and delighted to know there ARE those out there who GET IT, the way I get it, or see it, or want it.
And of course, that’s totally in part to ALL the blogs, and in this case of course, to FDL, for ENABLING the space for those like me to rant a bit and mix it up and find like minded and kindred spirits where I thought there were none.
Now let’s get busy and start pulling for someone who will get our Republic back, one day at a time.
Tanbark, I responded at 8:13. Then you responded to my response. Then you decided to respond that I had not responded. Do you want to pick one of your first two responses and stick with it or create a third?
I could care less what you think of Hillary.
When you equivocate between A*PAC and the nation of Israel, you crossed a line with me. Much as it pains me to admit it, I think you and I are in substantial agreement about how bad A*PAC and its supporters are.
Uncritically lumping Israel in with A*PAC, however, is like like lumping FDL in with the neo-cons. That’s completely false and incredibly unfair to the real complexities, political and otherwise, facing Israel, the Palestinians and the Middle East.
Also, you are horribly misinformed, if you think that all that stands between the US and ethical government is bringing A*PAC to justice for serial felonies.
One thing Hillary needs to do is to put a LOT of distance between herself and Bush!
She should *NOT* vote for Bush’s Amnesty Bill that benefits Big Corporations!!!
I won’t vote for any candidate who votes yes on that POS!
Bruce Webb @ 88 . . .
Was the decision to vote for the War Authorization a mistake? Well that depends on how much you are willing to shove down the Memory Hole, how much you want to collapse the timeline between Sept 2002 and March 2003. You might even say the question was nuanced.
Gilley’s BS Detector says, all you or anyone else had to know was the crap you heard about BoyKing in his initial election campaigns. He was a lout, a brutal and inept Governor, and totally incompetent as a business man. He skipped a REAL service record, and forged what little he DID participate in.
Gilley claims DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING from the grave!
WE knew LONG before he was even ELECTED he was pure evil and NOT GOOD FOR OUR REPUBLIC!
Tanbark, I responded at 8:13. Then you responded to my response. Then you decided to respond that I had not responded. Do you want to pick one of your first two responses and stick with it, or create a third?
I could care less what you think of Hillary.
When you equivocate between the lobby referred to above and the nation of Israel, you crossed a line with me. Much as it pains me to admit it, I think you and I are in substantial agreement about how bad (the lobby referred to above) and its supporters are.
Uncritically lumping Israel in with (the lobby referred to above), however, is like like lumping FDL in with the neo-cons. That’s completely false and incredibly unfair to the real complexities, political and otherwise, facing Israel, the Palestinians and the Middle East.
Also, you are seriously misinformed, if you think that all that stands between the US and ethical government is bringing (the lobby referred to above) to justice for serial felonies.
I opposed the war from the beginning and asked all the questions that are being asked now. However, in behalf of all those dems who voted to give the authority, there was a moment when Saddam opened the door back for for Hans Blix and the inspectors, when I begrudingly though Bush might have pulled off a major bluff. It was soon apparent that we were going to war regardless, but even I was shocked to see how far Bush strayed from the foreign policy of all president’s, even his father. Therefore, I can give the Dems who voted the authority the benefit of the doubt.
Elliott @ 92 . . . excellent!
that gives me great hope that we really do have a way around the corporate control of news.
Yeah, I gotta echo that excitement. So far, blogs are the only source I can find to tell me enough truth to make up my mind about what I think.
Cant’ trust the print or radio or tv mediums.
Internet news hunting and gathering is time consuming, but at least it’s THERE to find. News and opinions from all OVER the world, at yer fingertips . . . bravo blogs and bloggers and blogettes.
PMA @ 259
The benefit of the doubt as you describe it is not deserved. The Clintons should have been criticizing the competence of Tenet when he was reappointed by Bush. The Clintons knew Tenet was a sycophant (sp?) and worse he was lazy and spent his time sucking up to them and Bush. The Clintons knew that the intelligence “community” in the US was incompetent. The Clintons more than anyone bear responsibility for their self serving behavior with Bush. Want to know what is most likely? The Clintons thought Sadaam was a jerk. He could be easily toppled and no one, not even the Clintons could imagine that Rumsfeld was so incompetent. Hillary Clinton, to be blunt, does not have any feelings for the class she sends to war.
RockPaperScizzors @ 121
That’s huge. Stopped me right in my tracks. And NOT the first time I’ve seen it posited. But this time, it’s like a whack in the head.
Good stuff.
Points to corportization of the globe mentality, which will ALWAYS be detrimental to the masses. Which IS our biggest threat to our liberty and our republic.
Sorry. I disagree. No other president, including Bill Clinton, invaded Iraq. I don’t believe any other administration thought the U.S. needed it’s own Gaza.
Tanbark @ 144
You keep leaving out Madame Pelosi. She’s owned too . . . . same o same o as Shil. (evilgrin)
Tanbark @ 144
You keep omitting Madame Pelosi!!! (evilgrin)
[edited by mod]
Whoa, John, are you seriously claiming that equating Isreal and A*P*C is like doing that to FDL and bushCo?
Man, we’ve all got a little bullshit leeway on here, but not THAT much. :o)
You put up all kinds of smoke; my point is simply that Hillary, just like Lieberman, is MUCH influenced by A*P*C, which in turn is THE political lobbying arm for Israel, in our government.
And that influence on Hillary is HEAVILY in the direction of keeping our troops in Iraq for a long, long, time.
And, if you think differently, then you need to get back on the turnip truck and re-enroll in bonehead contemporary politics 101.
When any of these candidates start prattling about “withdrawing the troops” we need to ask them how MANY troops they’re talking about, and over what period of time.
If they take out enough that they can’t keep Baghdad in the partial lockdown that it’s in now, and still try to keep the world’s largest CIA station-cum-embassy there, it will instantly turn into one hell of a mortar-training range. Plus, the Iraqi government will quickly become negatively involved in the pecking order that will be…negotiated.
And, as always, if the dems don’t get the repubs who created this abomination “on board”, then they won’t, and shouldn’t, do it by themselves.
The Brit papers yesterday announced that as soon as Gordon Brown takes office later this month, their military will request a complete withdrawal from Iraq, within a year. If my math is correct that means that Basra and those huge fields in the south will be under the control or one or more Shiite militias for about 5 months leading up to the 2008 election.
And if bush wants to prevent that, he’ll need to put even more troops down there than the 7,000 which the brits have. And it’s a good bet that the level of tolerance for them will be a lot lower than what the Brits have “enjoyed”, relatively speaking.
There is simply no good way out of this for us, and staying 10 years will not change that. And until I hear Hillary Clinton say that, or something very close to it, AND until I hear her speak the simple sentence:
“It was a mistake to do it, and a mistake to vote for it.” (As John Edward has done repeatedly) then, I have a good idea that the progressive wing of the party will be strongly opposed to her nomination. And they should be.
[edited by mod]
Mods, sorry, my bad . . . but go ahead and delete 265, a double post on my part in reply to my friend, Tan, in regards to ownership issues . . (/snark)
[Beloved mod does not censor one’s badness…just encourages proper use of A*P*C.]
SCizzors: It WAS a good post.
she doesn’t want to talk about ANY of the specifics surrounding the war. Not the run-up to it, and not what is going on now.
A very, very, republican characteristic.
Another question:
How would she go about getting the various militias, including the Peshmerga ( :o) ) to lay down their arms? And just to get a little pre-emptive here, in case she doesn’t think that the Peshmerga should be included in the disarming, how will she explain that to the Sunnis and the Shiites, both of whom have had Peshmerga units used against them in joint operations with our troops?
radiofreewill @ 146
While I agree with your posits, this last one requires a response. IF it is as you say, and all of America is tired of the A word and it’s minions, well, doncha know, they see HRC as being ONE of the A people. A carpetbagger. Stole the White House blind upon exiting. In it for herself. The American Public is WELL aware of the Clinton’s Legacy in Arkansas, and in the White House. They don’t approve of it, and that’s why, she’s unelectable. She’s perceived as dishonest, and in it for herself.
That was what the MAJORITY felt and I’d be willing to wager, STILL FEELS!
I AM so tired of A word and it’s minions, too, hoss, BTW . . . fatigued, tired, wounded, and pissed and angry.
Let’s get to fixin it. Hil needs to get out fast, or we LOSE the ‘08.
Larue, Pelosi’s not running for preznit. And while she is certainly not particularly interested in alienating A*P*C, she hasn’t been deep tongue-kissing Joe Lieberman, and getting into bed with he and them.
And she has said in no uncertain terms that invading Iraq was a mistake.
(evil wink… :o) )
[Mod Note: Tanbark, ol’ bean, you are trippin’ the filters…note editing]
John Casper @ 151
Doesn’t matter, they and LIKUD drive our elected officials and decision makers.
When that changes, I’ll dance in the streets with ALL my Jewish friends. I might even find religon. (smile)
[Mod Note: Two asterisks in A*P*C, please!]
radiofreewill @ 162
Dang, that’s so good is frightening.
Totally believable.
Geez, great anticipation . . . . first time I’ve heard it and it sounds so simple . . good one, hoss.
What prevented Clinton and Obama from speaking out before the vote like Dodd? (Edwards doesn’t count as he did not have a vote and had no right to express the opinion shared by many of us before the vote)..)What prevented her from doing what Edwards did when he said Obama was right and he(Edwards)was wrong?
As for me? Give me Molly, or give me Death!
http://www.freepress.org/colum…../2006/1304
RockPaperScizzors @ 190
Good stuff!!! Yer all over it!!!
Hey Tanbark, how long have I been wailin about why we REALLY went into Afghanistan (IT WASN’T FOR BIN LADEN!)?
That it was cuz The Taliban cut us OUT of the gas pipeline deal they gave to Russia/France/Germany? Why we went INTO Iraq? How long? Hmmmm? Neener neener neener? lol
RPS, you rawhk!!! (BIGGRIN)
John Casper @ 191
That’s a bogus j’accuse and you should be retracting that quickly IMO.
Isreal and its citizens are NOT above criticism or reproach. No more than you, I or the american people are.
That the Likud and it’s StrongArm Blackwater Equivalent Known As Mossad and their Purchasing Agent Posing As A Pac in DC have UNDUE influence on OUR foreign policy is perfectly fine fodder for criticism and arguement.
IMO it’s unconstitutional and illegeal and immoral the sway they hold over our Republic.
Period. And I blame OUR bought off sleaze politicians for enabling it. I don’t blame the Jewish people. Tan don’t either, I know, cuz we talk about this sort of stuff all the time.
Ya mean this from 1997
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/wor…../37021.stm
or this..
http://www.atimes.com/c-asia/DA25Ag01.html
mui @ 225
GRIN!
BIGGER GRIN!
I Love The Last Two Sentences.
Thanks for some uplifting words. It’s TOUGH when so much is broken, and so many on yer own side just want to glue it up instead of rebuilding.
Again, thanks for words of sustaining!
coral @ 226
This is NOT a gender issue.
It’s an issue of morality, and leadership.
If you are reading this whole thread, you refuse to accept the evidence presented. Which is your right and choice as a human.
But this is SO not a gender issue, and you are missing it when I or others of likeminded ilk state what we do in our criticisms of HRC.
If yer gonna start pointing fingers, please get REAL specific and name names, cuz I ain’t in yer bag and don’t want a finger pointed at me in this case. Thanks.
This country is desperate for leadership. Hillary’s response did not evidence the ability to lead on the most important issue in the US. “Misgivings” is too kind a word for this foray into the Bush/Cheney world of fear-mongering. And the crack about us being safer – given this administration’s ability to develop allies around the world and emphasis on diplomacy, what supposed leader would dare think we are safer, let alone mention the same in intelligent company? If this is who Hillary really is, perhaps we can do better.
No Blood for Hubris @ 227
Yer killin me, HRC IS Blood For Hubris.
So are MOST of the Dem and Thug Candidates.
Yer point is much lost on me.
QuakerGirl @ 248
More BINGO!!!!
GRIN!
I love this place . . . .
Shoes4Industry @ 253
That’s cold hoss, pure ice stone cold.
Even if it’s funny, it’s just cold.
Sexist AND sexual prefenced inappropriate.
;-)
Damn it, I can’t stop smirking . . yer killin me. lol
nogo war @ 276
Yeah, and people forget that Cheney went TO Afghanistan and laid down the law to The Taliban, who then told him and USA to go Cheney ourselves.
N THEN, 911 hit. N THEN, we hit Afghan.
Curious that chain of events.
People seem to forget all that
Thanks for the RAWHK FDL’ers, time to get stuff done. ‘Preciate the dialogue, innuendo, barbs, thrusts, parries and all thoughts of all persuasions. Good stuff, this Freedom Of Speech thing we all treasure.
Terrific strawman. Please find where anyone on this thread wrote that?
How much is KKKarl paying you today?
ROFLMAO
No, that’s a mirror to the smoke you’re blowing.
No it wasn’t.
It’s the crude reserves that are providing that influence.
Wrong again. “It will instantly turn into one hell of a mortar-training range,” just as soon as the Sunni or the Shia decide we’ve sided completely with the other. It has nothing to do with our troop levels, but Cheney wants it to be the Sunni to support Saudi Arabia. If that happens we’ll eventually have to fight we’ll have to fight our way out to Basra. You also keep forgetting to mention how much our involvement helps Russia and Iranian influence in the region. This in turn pulls the former Soviet Republics into a tighter orbit around Moscow.
It really pisses me off when you say something with which I totally agree.
So you’re going to vote Republican if Edwards doesn’t win?
John Caspar…. reeeeeeaching. In no way is either Tanbark or Larue the least bit anti semitic.
Nor are either of them sexist. (I’d bean them if they were!)
Let me ask those of you throwing around the sexism-shut-up-stick, and the anit-semitic-shut-up-stick to consider that Hillary is drinking heavily of the neocon koolaid in the dark alone so no one knows. But it shows. And you want to let it go by because she’s a woman?
No. She can take responsibility for her words and actions…. just like gw bush. R*al*ty rocks!
Great thread! :)
Myrtle, didn’t you read Larue? He’s actually got Jewish friends.
I am very interested, how do you judge if an individual commenter is anti-semitic?
I’ve got the same question about the sexism. How do you know the charges of sexism are baseless? I know you asserted it’s wrong, but do you have anything to back that up?
If this is a recent influx of Edwards supporters, imvho a majority of FDLers have never been pro-Hillary. A lot of us will support the Democratic candidate, even if it’s Hillary. Trashing Hillary does nothing to elevate Edwards imo.
John…. I know from about a year’s worth of daily email exchanges with these two fine, well-informed gentlemen. To say nothing of their thousands of posts in 27%er land. Takin’ it right to ‘um, they do. That’s how I know.
I’m not an Edwards supporter. He’s got an automati DQ in my book. Voted for the war; not a leader. Neeeeext!
Oh, and Thompson is getting some attention from the 27%ers….. for his Reagan-like-ness. These people really need to quit diving into the shallow end .
wow… Thompson could be their “throw away” President…. hadn’t thought of him. Thought it would be McCain’t…. or Condi…. hmmmmm. Could be Thompson.
John, if the DLC rams Hillary down our throats and “wins” the nomination….. well, practice saying “President Thompson”. Haven’t you had enough “going along to get along” bs in your life?
Myrtle, I don’t like the DLC anymore than you. Maybe you should check out the Joe Sestak thead from Saturday before making a comment like this:
Have you ever heard of “cost-push inflation?” As long as there isn’t another 9/11, I’m guessing the Democratic candidate wins rather easily. If you’ll read the Sestak thread, you’ll see that no one at FDL takes much consolation in that.
So you don’t want Hillary and you don’t support Edwards. So you’re pushing Obama?
Hillary said that all Republican candidates supported the war. This is not true, of course, Ron Paul is the exception. Why did she say this? She said she didn’t want Americans to be confused. This seems patronizing to me.
Oh my. Been doin’ well in the stock market have you, John. Lemme guess, defense industry makin’ the big red stained dollars are ya. Hey, mediocrity rocks! Now, there’s some Democratic values!
Yes, I heard of it…… from the 27%ers. They like to subvert the topic to their pocketbook all the time. Red Herring alert level raised to ORANGE.
Your “as long as there’s not another 9/11…. guessing…. easily” also reeks of 27%er-isms.
No, I’m not pushing Obama…… he was too tentative, but I’d vote for him before the jellyfish “yes to war” voters any day of the week. Nope, I’m expecting a better choice to show up. I EXPECT better!
Myrtle, how much is KKKarl paying you?
So…this thread certainly devolved over the last few hours.
That’s a rarity around the Lake. Let’s keep it that way.
JoeCHI @ 109
“terror” is a tactic, not a person, group or nation. That’s why we’re having a problem ‘winning’ in Iraq — there is no person, group or nation who is our enemy in Iraq. If anyone says they favor a war on terror, then they will have a very hard time winning since there’s nobody to kill or capture to win over.
If you want to focus on Al Qaeda or the militant jihadists, then it makes a lot more sense. But, how many of them were in Iraq wanting to attack us when Bush invaded? The only count I’ve heard was a recent one after some people had gone from around the Middle East into Iraq to attack American soldiers. Even after they’d had several years to congregate there the number was less than 1500. With all our troops there why can’t we find them and defeat them? It’s all bogus garbage and Hillary is buying into it.
Why? Qui bono? I know I’m not benefitting from our occupation in Iraq. How about you?
When Hillary says we’re withdrawing ALL our troops from Iraq, then I’ll sit up and take notice. I still won’t vote for her, but at least I’ll know she’s finally broken out and has some better idea of what is going on.
In the meantime I’m listening to Edwards.
Well, John…. that’s the second time you’ve asserted that…… hmmmmmmm very suggestive that he’s actually paying YOU.
RBG… sorry about that. Will try not to play with your pubbie plant trolls next time.
And Myrtle, Mr. Casper is a commenter of long standing at the Lake. Let’s be very careful how we toss around the “t” word.
And while I’m at it…Mr. C., the KKKarl stuff can stop any time.
Well thanks for the heads up RBG. Much appreciated. It doesn’t change my response to the KKKarl business. I don’t play KKK anything ever. Never have, never will.
I do want to ask you if you are a mod on this site though? Also, was it being against Hillary comments? or against the DLC?
I’m asking in ernest as I think FDL has long done an excellent job of bringing great news to light and great coverage of events. I think backing Hillary is a mistake and I want to say so. If that’s not welcome here, or any discussion about why, that’s fair enough. Just say the word.
Thanks again :)
Praedor Atrebates @ 218
Being against torture is a moral stand.
Being against invading and killing innocents is a moral stand.
I think Edwards is right to focus on the moral aspect of many of these decisions a president has to make.
I didn’t especially care for his answer where he said he would travel the world repairing international relations. I think the president should mostly be in America and let a good Secretary of State do that work.
So, recognizing the war on terror is a campaign slogan and that there is a moral component to these decisions puts Edwards ahead by a mile.
Hillary can’t walk away from her AUMF vote because she postures as a hawk and will apparently always be one. Though she did look nice.
Myrtle, yes, I am one of the mods and my comments had nothing to do with you stating your opinions about Hillary.
The sniping at fellow commenters started hours ago in this thread and is not how we generally conduct conversations at the Lake.
Need I say more?
PMA @ 263
In 2000 even Condi Rice and Colin Powell and Dick Cheney were saying it was stupid to attack Iraq in full to take out Saddam. It’s no wonder Bill Clinton just kept him under wraps.
But then we had some Dems voting for the AUMF, and after seeing it’s effect we have to wonder how any of them could refuse to admit their mistake.
Sure, I give props to Obama for voting against it. And, I give recognition to Edwards for admitting his error. Too bad he didn’t take his wife’s advice on that one. But, Hillary still won’t or can’t recognize her error. Why?
We need to move on.
Oh. I hadn’t noticed that. Thanks for the heads up :-)
John Casper @ 289
Do you see the anti-Hillary talk here as “trashing” or as an honest critique?
I don’t see anyone bashing her because she isn’t pretty or because she’s stupid or because she’s too short or because she’s female or because of anything except her personal qualities which relate to presidential behavior and her policy positions which indicate her thinking.
If America wants out of Iraq then is it fair she should say she’ll get us out, but what she really means is we’ll stay there in the permanent bases forever?
If America wants health care reform, but she’s tried and failed already should we be stuck with no reform for another 4 or 8 years?
If America wants stronger Unions and better pay for the less well paid among us, then should we accept a president with anti-union credentials?
If Americans won’t elect a Massachussetts Liberal (even if she is from New York and isn’t so Liberal), then why is it unfair to suggest someone from a little further South?
Just tell us where we’re ‘trashing’ her!
MarkH, I’m no fan of Hillary and that wasn’t the issue that brought me into this thread. If you’re interested in how people here feel about Hillary, read the Joe Sestak thread from last Saturday.
Myrtle, I apologize for the KKKarl.
Myrtle, cost push inflation refers to the price of crude oil and gasoline. As the cost rises, so does inflation. That erodes everyone’s standard of living, especially the poor. As I stated above, people vote their pocketbooks and barring another 9/11, I think it’s going to be a landslide for Democrats. As I mentioned before, if you had read the Sestak thread, you would understand how FDLers view that.
I held my nose and voted for Kerry.
There’s not a HazMat suit powerful enough for me to vote for a corporate, DLC, sleazy AIPAC tool like HC. I’ll never vote for a Rethug as long as I live, so it’ll be a 3rd party or no vote in ‘08 if the Demos are suicidal enough to nominate her. She’s got 49-50% negatives (rightly so, in some ways)! She’s a warmonger. The excuse that Bush “lied to her” about the nonexistent WMDs is absurd. I’m not in the gov’t. but was sane enough to know it was all BS, as did many 1000s of other conscious Americans. Finally, are we France under the aristocracy? 24 years under two corrupt, sleazy insider families is not “democracy”, it’s oligarchy. Enough of DINOs like the Clintons and that DLC (Demos lose campaigns) crew!
Mark The Spark For President.
Hoss, thanks for putting it out there and up front.
No more bullshit, Gilliard SAID so.
No more bullshit.
Gimme my country back.
HRC goes. She HASTA GO!!!
And every Dem on the planet better be pushing her off the plank, or yer gonna curse us for 8 years and ruin any chance this nation has to recapture the republic we usta know.
Harumph.
Those are both votes for your “Rethugs.”
Mr. Casper:
Your cognitive skills are slipping. The entire little debate we’re having is about what Hillary’s position(s) are.
And she has been hand in glove with A*P*C from the gitgo. And she has been a supporter of the war from the gitgo, until she saw which way the wind was blowing.
And now, she wants to have it both ways, which is to say, she refuses to say the invasion, and her vote supporting it, were a mistake.
And she wants to do this, while she’s getting pounded by most of the progressive wing of the democratic party.
As I’ve said, she has a habit, a very REPUBLICAN habit, of not answering questions relating to the specifics of the war, and of her support for it, for at least 4 years.
I don’t hate her, and I’m sorry that she saw fit to NOT join the 21 democratic senators who had the courage and intelligence to vote against the invasion. And even sorrier that she still won’t unequivocally eat her vote, as Edwards has done.
Of him, I’m not in his corner yet, but what he’s saying, generally has more smarts and courage about it, than ANYTHING Hillary Clinton is saying.
I’m sorry to have to tell you this, but your attempt to tar me with the “anti-semite” brush IS right-wing sleaze, and I don’t care how long you’ve been here. :o)
It’s one of the favorite talking points that the GOP uses against people who object to the inordinate degree of control which Isreal exerts over our foreign policy in the mid-east.
It was Lawrence Franklin, the Air Force Reserve Colonel, who pleaded guilty to passing a classifed Presidential Directive about U.S. policy toward Iran to the American-Israel-Public-Affairs-Committee (A*P*C) which Wilkipedia calls “the foremost pro-Israel lobbying organization in the U.S.”, while he was working for the Defense Department.
On January 20th of 2006, he was sentenced to 12 years and 7 months in prison, and fined $10,000 dollars.
Just by way of establishing my “anti-semitic” credentials:
Franklin was a policy analyst for UnderSecretary Douglas Feith, and Deputy Secretary of Defense, Paul Wolfowitz.
Of whom you may have heard. :o)
Franklin was passing the information to Steve Rosen and Keith Weissman.
Rosen was AIPAC’s then-policy director, where he had worked for 23 years. As of last June, Rosen had been indicted for receiving classifed material. I don’t know what the disposition of that was, but he was fired by A*P*C. Weissman was the senior Iran Anylyst for A*P*C. He was under investigation and was also fired.
From Wilki:
“According to the NY Times, Franklin was one of two U.S. officials who held meetings with Iranian dissidents, including Paris-based arms dealer Manucher Gorbanifar, a key figure in the Iran-Contra scandal. These pentagon-approved meetings were brokered by neo-conservative Michael Ledeen, of the American Enterprise Institute, who had also played a part in Irangate…”
Okay, John:
Here’s Hillary, speaking at the A*P*C Committee meeting on February 1st of this year:
“I am so honored to be here and once again to speak on behalf of the causes and concerns that we share.
And there is no doubt that A*P*C is at the forefront of efforts to advocate on behalf of Isreal. And on behalf of the shared interests and security that form the unbreakable bond between our two nations.
I thank you for supporting A*P*C. Because as active citizens, you are serving an essential function; when you advocate, when you lobby, when you speak out on issues that matter to the Jewish community and to Israel you are speaking also on behalf of issues that are important to the larger community of Americans.”
Me: and she goes on to just generally give the kind of speech that politicians give when they’re sucking up.
No serious democratic politician at the national level in America wants to piss off ANY large bloc of voters, and Edwards has done his share of courting the Jewish vote, but he also had the temerity to rock the boat in a speec he made in Hollywood in January of this year, when he said:
“Perhaps the greatest short-term threat to world peace is that possibility that Israel would bomb Iran’s nuclear facilities”.
I think that’s a very courageous and very honest thing for a presidential candidate.
I also happen to think it’s true, what do you think, John. :o)
P.S. http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com has this list of contributions to democrats from A*P*C.
1st figure–last run for office.
2nd figure–total over entire career.
Dodd–$38,250/$221,178.
Biden–$2,500/$101,007.
Hillary–$37,118/$56,118.
Edwards–from 2004 to current; N/A; with a
footnote that says his blogsite states
that, as of Feb. 4th, 2007, he’s
never received contributions from
A*PAC.
Edited **************** and released by Mod
“As I mentioned before, if you had read the Sestak thread, you would understand how FDLers view that.”
This is the Hillary thread. I’ve honored that FDL rule. Do you feel I need to understand “how FDLers view that” in order to somehow adjust what I say to conform to the FDLer way? Where have I heard that before?
Here’s a thought: You share what you think. I’ll share what I think. All the “FDLers” can share what they think. Wow, we might learn something from each other…on this topic.
Just a thought…
No myrtle, you’d figure out how really unpopular Hillary is at FDL relative to other Dems. The “code” for us is that we will support the Democratic candidate for President. We understand that we have to mobilize at the grass roots. That’s the only way to exert influence over vichy dems such as Lieberman and Hillary.
FDL was huge behind Ned Lamont and Hillary screwed him and helped get Lieberman re-elected in the general. One of the ways they beat Lamont was by asking, “are you a Bill Clinton Democrat or an Al Sharpton/Jesse Jackson Democrat?” Hillary never once stood up and called bull-sh*t. That’s another reason, I want to be so careful about issues of ethnicity. When you bash “us” for being pro-Hillary, you just show how little you know about this blog’s history.
tanbarki, I read your comment. Frankly, I don’t see much point in responding. You keep hammering away at me for positions I disavowed in prior comments.
I think that Hillary thought – like the neocons – that Iraq just might be a cakewalk.
If she opposed it, and it turned into a cakewalk (as indeed it appeared to be in first two weeks), she would have been labeled as the weak liberal pussy the neocons always knew her to be. She couldn’t take that chance.
Gore/Clark