I generally agree with the post-debate media spin that Senator Clinton's overall performance helped her image. Putting aside for the moment her continuing discomfort in having to explain her original vote to authorize the Iraq invasion, Clinton's principal media problem coming into the debate was symbolized by two books, and the media voyeurism they released, which did their best to define who Hillary Clinton is. For the last week they provided the media pundits, almost none of whom wish her well, with endless diversion reinforcing whatever pejorative images of the woman they hoped to push.
However, all this negative image making was based on pretty weak tea. When Carl Bernstein appeared on one of the cable news shows to summarize what he'd found after 600 pages and 10 years of research, the worst epithet he could conjure was that she appeared "inauthentic." Not corrupt, not a liar, not a cheater, not disloyal, not stupid or venal, let alone a crook; just inauthentic. The Hardballers made what they could from this tea bag, reminding us of Clinton's image of being overly scripted and triangulating, whatever that means.
But last night, I thought Clinton blew "inauthentic" away. And her supporters knew it: in the post-debate spin room, campaign adviser Mandy Grunwald explained that Hillary lived in a world where everyone else was constantly trying to define her, but the caricatures never matched the candidate her closest supporters saw every day. "Last night, Hillary defined herself," she said; it is pretty standard spin, but I think she's right.
In response after response, Clinton seemed very much in command of who she is and what she stands for, and there was nothing "inauthentic" about it. She was articulate, informed, and showed her experience and maturity. She's been there, done that, and seemed to understand what worked and what didn't and why. And except on the key issue of her original Iraq vote, Clinton was very much the Party unifier last night. She refused to allow Blitzer (or her colleagues) to define the issues in ways that would divide the party -- with one major exception, which I'll come back to. But first look at this framing:
Everybody on this stage, we are all united, Wolf. We all believe that we need to try to end this war. In two nights you're going to have the Republican candidates here. They all support the war. They all support the president. They all supported the escalation. Each of us is trying in our own way to bring the war to an end. . . .And I think it's important particularly to point out; This is George Bush's war. He is responsible for this war. He started the war. He mismanaged the war. He escalated the war. And he refuses to end the war.
And what we are trying to do, whether it's by speaking out from the outside or working and casting votes that actually make a difference from the inside, we are trying to end the war. . . .
The differences among us are minor. The differences between us and the Republicans are major. And I don't want anyone in America to be confused.
I thought all the other candidates did well, Obama and Dodd particularly so, though Dodd was the victim of Blitzer's time discrimination, getting barely half the time and questions as Obama. But whatever benefit these rivals thought they might get from Hillary's image, I suspect they know today that Clinton is not going to let others define her.
I have serious misgivings about Senator Clinton's unwillingness to acknowledge the egregious error of her original war authorization vote. She said she was thoroughly briefed on the intelligence, knew all the evidence, talked to the dissenters, and yet -- and this is the error she can't admit -- her judgment was to trust George Bush to do the right thing.
What I did not count on, and what none of us did who voted to give the President authority, is that he had no intention to allow the inspectors to finish the job.
Perhaps, but those who did not vote to give the President the authority did see the problem with Bush; why didn't she? Or did she see it and believe the war would be a success? Blitzer did not ask that on follow up and it remains the key to understanding why many remain concerned about that vote.
Perhaps even more disturbing was her response to Edward's attempts to reframe the "war on terror." The Democrats should not be arguing about this; it is a ticket out of the morass. I thought Edwards was right to make this effort, even though it's a tough sell, but his explanation last night of what he meant seemed weak. That gave Clinton the chance to wave 9/11 in the same way Bush does; it was an ugly moment in which the Democrat's possible Presidential candidate missed an opportunity to improve her own image and her party's ability to confront terrorism by helping Edwards reframe the terror debate. That she chose to use that moment not only to discredit Edwards but worse, to reinforce the most poisonous of the Bush/Cheney talking points is discouraging. That moment illustrated why so many of us have strong misgivings about a Clinton Presidency, no matter how authentic she is.
Thanks to Crooks and Liars for the Debate video.
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zed with a bulletin board!
I’ll tell the kids below!
Hillary looked ‘presidential’ last night!
Thx, scarecrow, nice analysis.
Add to the above that her fawning support of Condi’s appointment as Sec. of State, and I think it’s legitimate to insist that Hillary define her foreign policy thinking *very* clearly in the months ahead.
da kid is here, I thought I’d broken something though, no ripples on teh lake.
Good morning Scarecrow!
{{{{{Scarecrow}}}}}
radiofreewill @ 3
Yes, and according to their spinners, so did every other candidate. It was the the most common phrase I heard in the spin room.
I’ve always thought Hillary was formidable, and she’d probably be more effective than Bill was.
I just don’t like her DLC policies, and given the life choices she made (sat on Wal-Mart’s board, chose to work for a union-busting law firm, etc.) it’s clear she believes those policies.
Go Edwards!
Scarecrow @ 8
So none of the spin this time about “electability”, save for positions on issues?
Scarecrow,
I hope it was fun for you.
I agree wholeheartedly with your statement:
That, along with many other reasons are why I can’t support a Clinton candidacy. I also wish that Edwards had been able to articulate his point better.
Scarecrow - When do you think we’ll see the ‘also-rans’ begin to drop out of the race?
excellent analysis, as always, scarecrow.
maybe clinton isn’t inauthentic (whatever that means)… maybe she just really is an uber-hawk… maybe she really does think that invading iraq was a good idea (if only it hadn’t been mismanaged).
i think her defense of the “war on terror” (911!!!, 911!!!) is not a good sign.
EPU’d from a couple three threads below.
My immediate post-debate perspective:
Arrow up:
Hillary
Dodd
Biden (Public funding of elections)
Neutral
Richardson
Edwards
Down slightly
Obama
Kucinich
Down significantly
Gravel (crankiness didn’t go over well this time)
My $.02
OT Scarecrow but what was the skinny on Eric Alterman? Or did you hear anything amidst the noise and crowds?
Good morning everyone. I have been spun, fed cocktail weanies, and rubbed elbows with Mark Shields. I’ve watched Cillizza and Dionne. You may never trust me again.
Lots of feuding behind the scenes between Edwards/Obama camps, jockeying for the right to take on the Hillary. It wasn’t very convincing, because in the final analysis, there doesn’t seem to be a huge difference in policy outlook. The debate about “leadership” with Edwards claiming Obama/Clinton waited too late to decide which way to vote, while Obama says he opposed the war when Edwards supported it — it all looks pretty superficial today and probably doesn’t help either candidate.
radiofreewill @ 3
That’s the same thing they say about Romney and Thompson—they look presidential. I want more than that. LOTS more.
radiofreewill @ 12
i hope not until the dnc. they add important ideas to the conversation.
jeeze - we’ve got 6 months ’till the first primary. most people haven’t even started thinking about who they will vote for. there’s no rush.
diogenes @ 9
And that one of her chief campaign managers is a union busting corporate shill. No thanks.
radiofreewill @ 12
If this were February, I’d worry about that, because having 8 people on the stage tends to cheat them all. But I’m okay with that for now — and I don’t think the Democrats hurt themselves by having 8 articulate candidates presenting a fairly unified and coherent view of what they would do — at least as coherent as it gets in these strange times. I hope they all stay in for a while — each has something worthwhile to add.
Scarecrow, I appreciate your take on the debates, with a small quibble. The first HC quote is excellent, but your lead-in sentences confused me as to your opinion of it, because it looks like that is the area where you think she allowed Blitzer to define the debate. Only after I finished the post did I see that it is a foreshadowing of the last substantive paragraph.
per scarecrow’s request: here is your congressional hearings weekly update:
tuesday is the big day - with (in addition to the libby sentencing) Bradley Schlozman and Todd Graves testifying before the senate judiciary committee. on thursday, in the morning, the senate armed services will be considering General Lute’s nomination for “war czar“…. and, in the afternoon, the senate judiciary committee will be holding a hearing on elections (check out the witness list!)
below is a list of only a few of this week’s hearings. it’s quite possible that i haven’t included the hearing on your favorite topic, so… just for you, i’ve put up webpages for this week’s senate and house hearings. there you can find more comprehensive lists of hearings and links to even more.
Tuesday, Jun. 5, 2007
10 am
Senate Finance
Trade and Globalization: Adjustment for a 21st Century Workforce
2:30 pm
Senate Judiciary
To continue hearings to examine the Department of Justice politicizing the hiring and firing of United States Attorneys, focusing on preserving prosecutorial independence.
Witnesses: Bradley J. Schlozman, Todd Graves
Wednesday, Jun. 6, 2007
10 am
Senate Judiciary
To hold hearings to examine patent reform, focusing on the future of American innovation.
10:00 am
House Armed Services
The Full Committee will meet to receive testimony on Department of Defense body armor programs.
Thursday, Jun. 7, 2007
9:30 am
Senate Armed Serivces
To consider the nomination of Lieutenant General Douglas E. Lute, USA, to be Assistant to the President and Deputy National Security Advisor for Iraq and Afghanistan. [war czar]
10 am
Senate Judiciary
Business Meeting to consider Bills, Nominations and Resolutions.
Bills include: S. 185, Habeas Corpus Restoration Act of 2007
2 pm
Senate Judiciary
To hold hearings to examine S.453, to prohibit deceptive practices in Federal elections.
2:00 p.m.
House Judiciary
Subcommittee on the Constitution, Civil Rights, and Civil Liberties
Oversight Hearing on the Constitutional Limitations on Domestic Surveillance
p.s. fyi - i take requests… if there’s a hearing you’d like recorded as an mp3, it doesn’t hurt to ask. here are a few previous recordings.
I guess I’m in the minority for thinking that Hillary’s explanation of her vote to authorize the war is legitimate. At the time, while the evidence was pretty clear to anyone paying attention that there was no reason for this war, Bush, Cheney and Powell pressured Congress for this authorization so that they could be united at the negotiating table in pressuring Sadaam to comply. It was later, when Kerry ran for President, that they turned his vote into a vote for the war - and he fell for it. Now, everyone wants Hillary to take her vote back, but it’s a trap she refuses to fall into and she’s right. The fact is, she never voted for war. It’s just difficult to rise about the spin. Her explanation is pretty clear, if you just listen.
But like Scarecrow, I’m pissed that she said that we are safer now because of anything Bush did. I think she’s trying to pander to Republican voters that are never going to vote for her. And if there’s one thing this board speaks for is that Bush has only made us less safe and less democratic.
masaccio @ 21
I see your point; I made a slight edit that may help.
Scarecrow, thanks for the great breakdown!
I admit to my biases. I’m for Gore/Dean 08.
One thing that annoyed me about Sen. Clinton was her use of the word “we” when talking about the successes of Bill’s presidency. I know that marriage is a partnership and he trusted her advice, as any husband would. It really shouldn’t annoy me.
But on some level, it did.
Good morning everyone!
Thank you Scarecrow!
G’ morning, all… coffee is ready.
Scarecrow - I think you’ve hit the nail on the head.
But, when I was listening last night to the re-run, I found myself WANTING to listen to what Clinton said. And that was different for me.
She’s doing something right…
selise—
Thank you SO much for this list of hearings. Much appreciated.
Geogesimian — isn’t the current predicament the fact that Congress authorized this President to make a decision about using military force — it is, after all, called the Authorization to Use Military Force — and left it up to him? And now they wish they hadn’t given him that discretion. That’s the “no blank checks” argument. The fault was giving Bush the first blank check, even though they might have believed there was language in the authorization that would lead him to exercise his decision based on sound analysis and the right conditions. Those who voted no didn’t trust Bush. Those who voted yes need to explain why they did.
Scarecrow @ 24 Thanks.
My thought with Clinton is that she wanted to give the President all the negotiating power necessary… I think she could even say, “I trusted Bush and that was a terrible mistake”…
It’s not quite there, but it’s better than what we’ve got now.
Is the Republican debate going to be in the same location?
Hill playing the ultra-fear card.
Not very becoming.
GeorgeSimian @ 22
there a couple of reasons i see it differently than you.
one, it was also clear to many of us that this vote was to allow bush to go to war. even i saw it that way, at the time, which was why i was madly organizing anti-war actions. lots of other people understood that… listen to gore’s speech, Iraq and the War on Terrorism, from September 23, 2002.
two, i think clinton saw it that way too. take a look at this youtube of clinton w/ codepink in march 2003.
The mods are helping clean up the typos; so refresh to get the corrected version. I got home a little late last night.
Elliott @ 33
Yes.
Is “It takes a Clinton to clean a Bush mess” a saying yet ? Edwards and Dodd are definitely the candidates that are most aligned with my core values, but Clinton’s got much more charisma than I expected … She gives me this lingering feeling that she’s the candidate to sweep the next election.
Thank you Scarecrow. I share your final sentiment about HC.
Anyone here think we (FDL, DFHs, etc.) are soft on terra? I feel the WOT is so overblown. Am I just a pansy?
OldCoastie @ 32
yes that’s perhaps a better answer - one that Kerry used. With a decent President whose intelligence and integrity and motives you trust, it may be a defensible position to strenthen the President’s hand in negotiations. But after Bush, no Congress should ever give a President that unilateral power — it’s why the framers gave it to Congress in the first place.
egregious @ 29
you’re welcome!
fyi, for everyone else. my hearings list comment got caught for a bit by the spam filters (way too many links). thank you mods for setting it free…. so sorry to make work for you.
to see the list, hit refresh or click this link.
Obama didn’t seem ‘on his game’ last night. He’s not so good on his feet and needs more polish to keep from hurting himself.
Edwards has excellent messaging - he should stay strong for a while.
I kept thinking - along with millions - that ‘Gore would do well in this field.’
Elliott @ 33
Yes with Wolfie “moderating” again…
selise @ 41
thank you, selise!
My name is Elliott and I am a hearing junkie. ;)
Well, I know I have problems with some of Hillary’s “inside the beltway” policies and her ties to corporate american. But I seriously doubt that we will be hurt by her policies. In the end I feel she would fight for social programs that help the bottom line, that she will grease the corporate poles so that she will get republican votes in senate and congress when she needs them. I feel she will have diplomacy in global affairs and there is no damage to having Bill helping out. If he cheats again, it will be small potatoes.
I cannot help but get excited about the prospect of having a woman in office. Of having a female role model. Seriously, is it wrong for me to care deeply about wanting to be able to say to my daughter…we broke the glass ceiling??? The Hillary bashing seems so unneccesary.
I worry about her being elected but I worry because of sexism. I worry because alot of the comments about her “bitchiness, her inauthenticity” refuses to “understand” the pressure of being the “first” woman in this spotlight AND refuses to consider that the republicans have taken this family through the biggest magnifying glass of all time. EVER.
I am not all for Hillary, but I really don’t get the venom. I wasn’t for Bill when he was nominated, but he did pretty well. I wasn’t for Carter, but he was trashed by the rethuglicans. I just don’t want to be part of the trashing and I think women need to really consider the historic significance of being able to finally tell our daughters that they too, might be president someday.
For me it was excruciatingly painful to have to tell her that to date, we have never had a female or black president. I would take either Barack or Hillary and to me, that’s what it means to be a democrat.
I don’t mind legitimate questions of policy but some of it seems “overkill” and not what we would hear in reference to white male candidates.
It has always been on matters of foreign policy that the Dems and the Pukes most closely resemble one another’s positions…they diverge most (but not really very much) at the margins of domestic policy…
./
Everyone get the final story on the Alterman arrest? The initial description made it sound like he crashed the main event, but there was an invitation only reception on the second floor above the main floor of the gymnasium, where the “spin room” occurred. Earlier in the evening, the entrance in the back brings you to this second floor, so it would have been natural for Eric to wander in, before it all got started. Later, the security folks directed people downstairs to the main floor to be spun. Eric decided it would be cool to stay upstairs where they were serving drinks — and got busted. He was later released and I’d be surprised if there are formal charges.
I do not see the point of requiring an outright confession of the error of HC’s vote on the AUMF. If she comes out and says she made a mistake, it hands a huge talking point to the righties, and makes her look bad, and for what?
When Bill Clinton was assaulted on the zipper problems, we were satisfied with the answers about “causing pain in the marriage” and the other waffles, because we could see that he knew what was happening. We knew that if he admitted anything, the screamers on the right would be emboldened to destroy his presidency.
HC isn’t going to make that mistake, and we should drop that issue. Her explanations are satisfactory to me. I know that if I were in her shoes facing that vote, I, too, would find it hard to believe that he was just outright lying to get his way. It is easy for me, who have no stake in the matter other than as an observer and a voter, to think the man is a liar, but it would be hard for a responsible public official to conclude that he would lie us into a war.
I don’t doubt that there were some political considerations, but I do not think that she made the decision for purely political reasons. If this were so, then we would have a completely different problem than her refusal to provide a satisfactory mea culpa for trusting Bush.
selise @ 35
“Looking presidential” seems quite similar to “pretending to be President” and that’s all that we’ve ever gotten from Bush.
dakine01 @ 43
I’ll be interested to see if he is much of a jerk as it seems, from everyone’s comments, that he was last night.
Scarecrow @ 40
I understand but don’t forget the times when she did that. Although many of us on the left never trusted Bush, she was voting on the AUMF in ‘02 and 9/11 really was still very fresh. I agree that I thought it was a pre-text for war with Iraq but there was a vast group of persons who were still willing to give him a slight benefit of the doubt…
RevDeb @ 17
I agree, you’re right. But think of it this way. We need both policies AND “looking presidential” for someone to really get things done in the USA, given the way politics and the MSM operates. Neither one is enough.
Another point: no matter how much you (or anyone) distrusts Hillary, just imagine what the last six years would have been like with her as President. I’m not saying she’s the best choice here, just think of the contrast with W.
George Clooney (George Clooney??) had it right. They were afraid of looking unpatriotic and soft on security issues. The whole country was still in a state of shock and the politicians wanted to appear strong on national defense. A ‘no’ vote would have been unpopular with the masses and the repub spin machine would have gone into overdrive criticizing them. That’s the evidence they used to determine their vote.
Even my man, John Edwards.
Um, do the mods know everything is being italicized?
[Mod: Refresh, it should be fine]
on the other hand, in case of another event of similar or greater magnitude to ix/xi, no Congress will/could ever refuse a President’s demand for such power…
.
This is what Clinton should have said:
Why is this Repub obsession with Americans being safer at home? Our soldiers are Americans too. 3,400 of them died since 2003 - 2003, she should emphasize with exclamation -
since the Iraq war started, and about 20,000 wounded. And if Bush continues the war, more are likely to die. Why are they only obsessed with 9/11 type of deaths? A death is a death - whether it is civilian or military and our goal is to prevent all those types of deaths and destruction.
Elliott @ 51
I posted a couple of comments last night that it would be nice if someone did a side by side compare on the two debates and rub his nose in the biases that I am quite certain will be apparent to all but the most obtuse. I suggested Olberman, Stewart, or Colbert but am open to anyone who can get the point across to him…
He did get slapped down a couple of times by the candidates for the inanity of his questions.
Hilary’s stand on Iraq represents the conventional wisdom of the foreign policy establishment (with a few exceptions). That wisdom is that the United States must dominate the Middle East in its national self-interest. I have never understood the logic of that argument. I understand why it is in Israel’s self-interest, and why American politicians should mask that interest as our own, but I do not understand the deeper logic of our own interest.
The argument seems to be that if some other country (namely China or India) gets preferred access to Middle Eastern oil, it won’t be available for us. Now, this argument makes superficial sense, except that it doesn’t define ‘preferred access.’ Do we have that access now? If so, in what specific sense? Oil is sold on a world market, what the Chinese might obtain from the Persian gulf is what they won’t buy from Nigeria or Venezuela or Russia or any of the other parts of the world that produce oil. So where exactly is the strategic risk to our oil supply?
An important aspect attentuating that strategic risk is that the United States currently wastes so much energy that for a comparatively small sacrifice we could save more than what it costs to maintain the undefinable ‘preferred access.’
If we can’t do that, then the real reason comes down to the bottom line that our ‘way of life’ requires living in suburban gated communities and driving three to four miles to the mall to shop. Anything less is an affront to our deepest values. Is this what our foreign policy bonzes have in mind when they talk about our strategic interest?
Sorry for the long post, but I think we have to decorticate Hilary’s support of the Iraq policy. I believe that her reasons are shared by the other major candidates, including John Edwards, whom I support.
Katie Jensen at 45:
Hear Here! My sediments exactly.
Katie Jensen @ 45 makes a good point. I am not a fan of HC, but I don’t see any reason for all the venom. It looks bad when we assault her for acting like a sensible politician, especially when some of these attacks fuel republican talking points that are soaked in sexism.
In defense of CNN: At least they didn’t ask any ‘elephant in the room’ questions. I don’t think any of the questions were “gotcha”.
Just saying.
A strong Hillary weakens Bush.
The Goopers fear strong women, in general, but Hillary, in particular.
Just the dawning of the thought “She might win…” is enough to turn Bush’s Iraq Folly into a cast-iron albatross around all the Goopers’ necks.
“Iraq is George Bush’s Vietnam.”
~ Ted Kennedy
Solai @ 61
I thought Brian Williams was much worse. Brian seemed sly and definitely played gotcha.
putting aside my almost visceral distaste for hillary — a distaste i should emphasize is based exclusively on her weasly beltway politics — i have to say i am soooo damn weary of all the fragging she has to take because a) she’s a woman and b) she’s bill clinton’s wife.
right now it’s the msm and the reps doing it, but at some point in this precampaign the dems will start increasing their firepower, under the guise of her “electability.” meanwhile, the true contest, of ideas and leadership, will fall by the wayside. which is what turns off so many voters in the first place.
Solai @ 61
that is saying something, though. That technique (best exemplified by Timmeh) doesn’t further any debate.
Solai @ 61
I thought the “what would you do with Bill” question was funny. Fox/Hume asked the Republicans that question in their debate, and they all used is as an opportunity to ridicule Bill, and thus Hillary — that was exactly what Fox/Hume wanted. So CNN asked the same question to Dems, and they all said, “wow, what a great asset we have” in the international arena. And all the Dem candidates said that, so Hillary didn’t have to. And she was the “winner” on that question, without having to say anything. Her response, “I think we should use all our past presidents to help undo the damage of the last seven years” was a winner. (Wonder what George H.W. Bush thinks of that?) But that was a CNN vs Fox moment.
Knut Wicksell @ 58 points out a good reason to quit thinking about oil as the central issue. But. It is hard to change the conventional wisdom with an economic argument. And there is a real problem on the horizon: what if some nations began pricing oil in Euros, or a basket of currencies not including the dollar. I can tell you that the Euro is expensive from personal experience, and if we have to pay for oil in Euros it won’t take long to feel real pain. That argues strongly for dominance in Iraq, so we could prevent that change.
masaccio @ 60
That was a pretty formidable woman we saw last night, in ways that really helped her with all groups. And I think that as they hold more of these, she’s only going to get better and appear stronger.
katie @ 45, i see you got there first.
nicely said.
masaccio @ 67
and the risk of that actually happening is George W. Bush’s fault. One more way in which he is ruinng our Republic.
Let’s face it ANY of the Democratic candidates are better than ANY of the Republicans. While I would untimately prefer Gore, I can live with just about anyone in the Dem field. So, if Hillary is ultimately selected as the Dem Candidate, I will do everything in my power to see her elected.
Scarecrow, how were you bloggers treated by the MSM in the media room?
which may be true…
but more importantly, i believe, iraq will be seen to have been the USofA’s Afghanistan, which bled the Soviets dry a couple of decades prior…i don’t think iraq can be the Busheviks’ Vietnam WITHOUT it also being the USofAs Afghanistan…
./
scarecrow, have bloggers been credentialed to cover presidential debates before yesterday?
It is possible to frame the Iraq fiasco as entirely a moral failure. It isn’t: It’s a failure of governance — the failure to pursue a rational, transparent, honest process of trying to figure out, together, and to the best of our ability — within the executive branch, with the Congress, and with the people — what the evidence really is, what it means, and what we ought to do about it. To truly weigh what we know and don’t know, what the options are, and what the risks and benefits of each option might be. To truly put our best thought behind doing the best thing for our country and for the world.
That’s why I like Clinton. She’s seen successes and failures in governance and she understands and knows how to manage the kinds of processes we need to get more successes than failures. I trust her to select people who understand this as well. I love Obama’s brains, his natural rhetorical skills, and his ability to inspire people. I love Edwards’s passion. But experience at governance matters. Hillary’s been through the wringer and she’s come out stronger than ever.
The NYT hack Jeff Gerth has a post on Huffington. He’s taking some hits from some posters but it would be nice to see more blasting this right wing shill. He’s one of the Kool Kids in the Broadway-Beltway triangle of disinformation.
As an Edwards supporter, I was interested in this from Paul Krugman’s column today [behind firewall, but you can register for access if you can provide a .edu e-mail address]:
This re Obama’s plan [mods, I’ve tried to cut this down so as to not offend fdl guidelines][apologies to Obama supporters for not being able to include all of Krugman’s points]:
Elliott @ 72
Good question — I introduced myself to several people I recognized — no problems. Mark Shields was particularly gracious. The image of bloggers is changing and progressive blogs are read more and more. Several people I met know about FDL and said “say hi to Jane,” or “I met Christy at . . .”
The student gym where we were set up had everyone together: print, TV, radio, bloggers, all together — rows and rows of people following politics.
In the spin room, the spinners I talked to knew about FDL; we’re treated seriously.
Katie Jensen @ 45
Maybe it will be deemed politically incorrect or sly to associate one Clinton with the other but the Clintons are hardly a real choice to the Bush/Cheney people. The Clintons appointed the Freeh/Tenet/Berger/Albright national security team, hardly the A tema to say the least. This is not a positive legacy to say the last 8 years of Clintons and the only legacy that there is/was consists of self seving and sadly ineffective plicy decisions. So fast forward to Hillary Clinton relying on George Bush and George Tenet in voting for the Iraq Wat. Hillary Clinton had first had experience with Tenet and had to know he was completely, and I mean completely, unreliable. As far as George Bush with his personal history, no way. So Hillary Clinton is what she has always been and will always be, an uninspiring careerist, just like the other Clinton.
Moved on.
selise @ 74
Yes. Laura from kos, whom I sat next to, has been covering these events from the beginning.
PeterK @ 53
That’s not even a question. ANYONE in the field of dems in 2000 would have made a better president than W. Hell, anyone who regularly participates here would have made a better president than W. I do not trust here and I do not like the people she has working for and around her. They do not reflect the values that I care about.
There was an article in the NY Times magazine section yesterday written by Jeff Gerth.
I did a diary over at
Daily Kos about it - I couldn’t keep up with the heat it created. I got accused of attacking two candidates at once. I had pointed out that Gerth’s wife works for Dodd, and he’d been debunked by Media Matters (in a link).
Anyway, he did point out an interesting factoid - Hillary had not only voted for the war, but voted against an amendment introduced by Carl Levin and several other Senate Democrats requiring a two-step process before Congress would actually authorize the use of force.
I ended up taking a couple of Tylenols and a nap.
Solai @ 61
Wolfie was trying to play gotcha just wasn’t as good at it as Williams. He was quite rude in continually trying to interrupt and talk over the answers. And the slap downs were quite pleasant and actually got him to back-off when he was pushing for the candidates to trash each other.
Scarecrow @ 30
Yeah, but it’s easy to look back and see what happened. Remember the state of the country at that time and what Bush said. He said, you have to stand behind me, and at that time the public was overwhelmingly supportive of that. He was asking for this authorization because, he said, without it, the threat of war didn’t have any power. And he was probably right in that. I mean, he didn’t really need the authorization to actually go to war.
Now, of course, this all looks ridiculous. I mean, what ever happened to the Bush argument that we needed to get on with this war because it might be too hot in the summer (of 2003) for our troops to effectively fight it? They say whatever they want to get their way.
Great post, scarecrow — and fantastic job last night. How were the cocktail weenies? Hope there were no quail wings… *G*
Scarecrow @ 68
I agree. She really has a lot going for her, despite the downsides (which we maybe focus on a bit too much).
Watched as much as I could of the repub debates which only decisively confirmed my “sheesh, is that all they’ve got?” pov. It was hard to imagine that the repub candidates could look any worse until I watched the democratic debates last night. The dems have a way to go before they meet my hopes but there was no doubt they are all intelligent candidates. What a contrast!
Nuance is a French word and so verboten in the context of the War Resolution but let me try.
It’s an onion. Start at the outer layer. You are convinced George Bush wants to get his war on. You are further convinced that Saddam is not a strategic threat to the US. And convinced beyond that that based on his actions in 1996 Saddam will not blink and admit Inspectors. Okay that is where I was (thanks to Steve G, RIP) and so I opposed voting for the War Resolution.
Peel back a layer. You are convinced on all three points but understand that Bush has the votes in the bag. Moreover you calculate that once he invades the troops will find enough evidence of chemical weapons that rational arguments about not being a threat to the US will fall on deaf ears. The proof will be in the artillery shells and the only possible defence against being called an anti-American terrorist loving traitor will have been the vote in favor of the Resolution. Which I think is a fair description of where Hillary was. Okay not exactly material for Profiles in Courage, on the other hand hindsight is 20/20 and the Democratic Party might have been swamped in 2004 rather than the break even position we got.
Peel back another layer. Beyond anybody’s expectation Saddam did blink. This is key. Anyone who voted for the War and expected the Resolution to work as designed on the surface, that is force Saddam to admit Inspectors and allow them to complete the job of disarming Iraq was pretty naive at best. It was clear as day that the instant Inspectors turned up evidence of anything that Bush would strike on the basis of “No time to wait”, the first bunker of dusty artillery shells would have green-lighted this war. It is almost beyond belief that Saddam was efficient enough to actually eliminate all trace of his weapons program without his generals knowing. But he did.
Okay snap back to the surface of the onion and pretend you have no understanding that Bush doesn’t care about disarmament and only cares about invading Iraq. Pretend that is that the President of the United States is not a serial liar about his intentions, that when he says “the decision to go to war has not been made” and that that decision is dependent on Saddam’s willingness to disarm that he is leveling with the American people. Well that is not where I was but it was not an unreasonable position for most Americans. From that fairly narrow perspective the War Resolution did exactly what on the surface it claimed to be doing all along: use the credible threat of American military action to force Saddam to admit Inspectors. At that level it worked, Saddam did admit Inspectors, they were well on the way to proving Iraq had disarmed.
It worked, The War Resolution did what on the surface it set out to do. That no one who voted for it actually calculated that it would work is to a degree beyond the point. As is the claim that everyone thought Saddam had chemical weapons. The entire calculus changed once Inspectors were on the ground, at that point everyone who voted for the War got the “Blind Pig Finding an Acorn Get Out of Jail Free” card, 100% of the responsibility passed to the Decider.
To say that Hillary or Edward or Kerry’s vote for the War was a mistake is easy in hindsight, at the time it was pretty clear that the Fog of War would obscure all nuance at all. The first bunker of Chemical weapons would have swamped all discourse and supplied all the cover Bush needed.
The key is that the state of knowledge in Sept 2002 was much different than the state of knowledge in Feb 2003. Yes the vote in September was a vote for War. No question. But there was still a level of uncertainty that no longer existed in February. And by that time the decision was in the hands of the Decider.
Was the decision to vote for the War Authorization a mistake? Well that depends on how much you are willing to shove down the Memory Hole, how much you want to collapse the timeline between Sept 2002 and March 2003. You might even say the question was nuanced.
Scarecrow, did Tim Russert hog the cocktail weenies table?