(Please welcome author Chris Hedges, who is here to discuss his new book, American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America. As always with guests here at FDL, please be polite and stay on topic in comments and questions. Any off-topic comments should be taken to another thread. Please join me in giving Chris a big FDL welcome. JFT)
Books about the scarier aspects of the religious right are something of a preferred genre in our house. What's uniquely insightful about Hedges' book is the connection he makes between the ongoing destruction of the American middle class and the rise of the megachurch political machine. People who have been disposessed from their livelihoods and communities are prime candidates for recruitment by preachers and politicians who offer easy answers, convenient scapegoats, and both earthly and heavenly salvation. Just vote for me and give me your credit card number, and everything will be fine.
Despite his in-your-face title, Hedges doesn't toss the F-word around casually. He prefaces the book with Umberto Eco's essay on Eternal Fascism. Eco lists fourteen features of what he calls Ur-Fascism, which may be summarized like this:
- A cult of tradition.
- A rejection of modernism.
- A cult of action
- A rejection of distinctions.
- A fear of difference and disagreement.
- A grounding in social frustration.
- An obsession with plots.
- A sense of humiliation by one's enemies.
- A view of life as eternal struggle.
- An elitist contempt for the weak.
- A hero cult.
- A cult of masculinity.
- A selective populism.
- A use of Newspeak.
Hedges takes his readers on a tour through the wacky world of dominionist Christianity in support of this thesis:
Dominionism seeks to redefine traditional democratic and Christian terms and concepts to fit an ideology that calls on the radical church to take political power. It shares many prominent features with classical fascist movements . . . .
He makes a convincing case that the dominionist movement is congruent to the features of fascism that Eco describes. This is, of course, not precisely the same thing as saying that religious fundamentalists are fascists. The parallels, though, are truly disturbing.
Three points from the book were especially interesting, and are not to be found (or are not so well expressed) in other books about the Christian right. The first was about the destruction of the manufacturing class:
The loss of manufacturing jobs has dealt a body blow to the American middle class. Manufacturing jobs accounted for 53 percent of the economy in 1965; by 1988 they accounted for 39 percent. By 2004 they accounted for 9 percent.
I live in the rust belt of Ohio, so these figures shouldn't come as a surprise to me. But like so many other bloggers, I haven't worked in an auto plant or a mill and haven't seen the pink slips firsthand. These numbers are stunning; how are all the people who used to work in manufacturing coping? Hedges thinks he knows: they are succumbing to the phony hope peddled by televangelists, megachurches and politicoreligious leaders such as Dobson, Kennedy and Robertson.
The second point concerns architecture and suburban design. Hedges points to the blight of hideous commercial buildings that cluster in every city and town in America. He describes our inherently isolating suburban landscape that disconnects each house from its neighbors and its community. These, he claims, are partially responsible for the despair that drives people into the arms of the religious right. I've frequently thought that there must be a direct relationship between the amount of space–both literal and figurative–between people's houses and the propensity of the residents to reject liberalism's view of society as a web of interdependencies. Hedges shows how the yearning for connection impels people toward fundamentalist Christianity; I still think that these same yearnings could be harnessed by the the right kind of progressive movement.
Finally, Hedges is properly contemptuous of liberals who raise tolerance to such privileged status that they are willing to tolerate anything–even intolerance. Referring to this as "the paradox of tolerance," he calls upon liberals to grow a pair:
Anger, when directed against movements that would abuse the weak, preach bigotry and injustice, trample the poor, crush dissent and impose a religious tyranny, is a blessing. . . . Liberal institutions, seeing tolerance as the highest virtue, tolerate the intolerant. They swallow the hate talk that calls for the destruction of nonbelievers. Mainstream believers have often come to the comfortable conclusion that any form of announced religiosity is acceptable . . . . Most liberals, the movement has figured out, will stand complacently to be sheared like sheep, attempting to open dialogues and reaching out to those who spit venom in their faces.
I realized a long time ago that ignoring homophobia, racism and irrationality made me miserable and emboldened the people who espoused those attitudes. By showing us the boundaries of this trap that so many well-meaning progressives fall into, Hedges has done those of us who call ourselves liberals a tremendous favor.




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WELCOME!
Welcome, Chris!
Welcome to the Lake, Chris.
James, thanks for hosting this important discussion.
Chris—
Thanks for being here!
RevDeb @ 1
Thanks Jim for having me. Chris
I liked so many things about your book that it’s tough to limit myself to just one question. But here goes: one of the most interesting ideas you presented was the paradox of tolerance–how being tolerant of intolerance eventually leads to the destruction of liberal democracy. I’m wondering what the trip wire is for that, i.e., at what point should folks say that the behavior of a certain group or individual crosses the line and should be condemned?
It has been an exhausting morning for me. I preached about the “f” word today as the subject of my parting sermon with the congregation I am serving.
Is it telling that I don’t want to post it on the church’s web site but rather on my personal blog?
This is a scary word that needs to be talked about in a scary time.
Thank you for addressing it at such length Mr. Hedges.
Hi Chris, welcome. Thanks so much for being here today.
I’m curious about your theory of economic recruitment:
When people lose their jobs I can understand why they might turn to hucksters, but there seems to be a missing component. With no way to pay the bills, how do they keep funneling cash into their coffers?
Jim, As you know the paradox of tolerance is a phrase lifted from the great political philosopher Karl Popper, who was driven out of Austria by the Nazis and spent the rest of his life writing about the open society and how to protect it. The trip wire, for both Popper and myself, is when a mass movement, such as the radical Christian Right, gains political legitimacy and is able to create a parallel information system (read Christian radio and television) that locks its followers out of normal public discourse and poisons civil and political discourse. Add to this Christian schools and colleges and you are in trouble. This movement reminds me of the ethnic nationalist movements — who in the name of identity and culture — turned neighbor against neighbor and destroyed Yugoslavia.
Hello Chris,
Do you see the political influence of the religious right waning? My sense is that we’ve seen their disastrous fruits of war and bigotry, and we are rejecting it.
One of the thinks I appreciated most about the book was the use of personal story to illustrate your points.
Are you familiar with Facing History and Ourselves, the foundation and curriculum? Also with Ron Jones’ story The Third Wave?
RevDeb, if there is one thing I have learned as a foreign correspondent for 20 years, nearly all of them in disintegrating societies, it is the emotional incapacity of people to accept that the world around them is crumbling, or indeed can crumble. I thought the German film Downfall about Hitler’s last days in the bunker captured this psychological impediment well. So, keep preaching it, but don’t be distressed that few seem able to hear it. I had a great professor of preaching at Harvard Divinity School — Krister Stendhal — who always told us that if we reached a handful of people with our sermons — really reached them — then our sermon was a success. Chris
Chris Hedges @ 11
Actually this group was really ready and willing to hear it, I’ve been priming them for a while and their response was gratifying. The concern is that it is the educated few that really are “getting it” and that we continue to tip-toe around the reality that surrounds us.
Thanks for the encouragement. When I go to my next church I’ll have them set up the lawyers and bail fund—just in case. I don’t intend to be quiet or complacent about this.
Just got your book. Have read and given your other two books. I was particularly struck by the addiction to excitement and violence that you spoke of in your first book. I often sense this addiction among the “crazy Christians” – the ones who must have an enemy to feel righteous.
I’ve often wanted to ask you if you are familiar with the work of Rene Girard
Jane, the people who embrace this movement have embraced a non-reality based belief system. In short, they believe in magic, in miracles, in a world where God has a divine plan for them and intervenes on a daily basis to guide and direct their lives. They are told, and most believe, that if they have enough “faith” it does not matter if their jobs are outsourced, federal and state assistance slashed, their schools no longer maintained, they are denied health insurance…the list goes on, because God will take care of them. And these preachers count as one of the demands of God that these followers sacrifice all they have, including money for God’s instituion on earth — the church. These people are assured that by giving money — even money they desperately need — they will be rewarded on earth and in heaven. It is a cruel, cruel manipulation. And this is why, while the leaders like Dobson are dark and frightening figures, the followers are not. They are often earnest, well meaning people whose desperation and despair is being used by con artists who have made personal fortunes (Pat Robertson is supposedly worth about $ 1 billion) and now is being used to dismantle our open society and destroy our democratic state.
RevDeb, I know Facing History but not The Third Wave. I will check it out. Thanks. Chris
Chris Hedges @ 12
Though I haven’t been to Mass since the pedophile scandal in Boston that made its way to Cleveland, where I was living for a time, we had a wonderful priest at our parish in Bedford who kept his sermons to about 12 minutes or so, but were absolutely jam-packed full of though-provoking correlations between our reality and the gospel of Christ. I know he reached me every week, as well as others because we would talk about his sermons. That has rarely happened in my experience. Sadly, he had to retire due to illness.
I have read Chris’s book. I was raised in the evangelical churches, okay, drug to them – Church of God, Assembly of God, Foursquare Gospel, Pentecostal Assembly…. – converted to catholicism as soon as I possibly could.
Chris Hedges @ 15
That’s one thing that struck me about the book: the genuine compassion you have for the people who are being taken advantage of. It’s an element that is missing from other explications of the Christian right I’ve read.
chris – does the word “pimping” re fundy preachers come to mind……?
Any idea of how much of the “faith based initiatives” money is going to build these megachurches? I remember a comment made here months ago by one of our regular posters who noticed huge church complexes built in areas of the country where there is no way that the local population could have put up the money to either build or sustain such institutions. The local economies in those areas were much too poor.
Jane Hamsher @ 8
Or the likes of Benny Hinn or Rod Parsley.
hwmnbn, you raise an interesting point. There is no question that the host body of the Christian Right — the Republican Party — is in shambles. As you point out, most Americans now reject the war and appear to be sick of the corruption of this administration. But I do not believe this is the last of the movement. The engine of the movement is personal and economic despair. Until this despair is addressed it will continue to thrive. And, in fact, the despair is getting worse. The assault on the working class (something that is very personal for me as much of my own family has suffered directly from the loss of manufacturing jobs) is now accompanied by an assault on the middle class. Anything that can be put on software can be and often is being outsourced. We live in a corporate state, but this I mean a state where the government no longer assumes the traditional role in a democratic society of defending the rights of the citizens, but now defends the rights of the corporations. Until we get the government back — and don’t expect Hillary or Barak to do this — we are doomed and the movement will be further empowered. Chris
Bookwoman, I don not know Rene Girard. Who is he? What did he write? Chris
as a former fundy – you’d be surprised at how effective these preachers are at getting members to give up even the rent money to build an appropiate temple to “praise the lord”. yet when members are on the verge of being evicted there’s no help for them….
Chris Hedges @ 9
The notion of a parallel information system is one that’s recently been fascinating to me. It weaves together so many tentacles that used to seem disparate. The idea of home schooling or voucher schools where information can be controlled to the mighty wurlitzer you describe that depends on endless repetition of misinformation for its impact, and then there’s this — well, the articles of faith in the fundie world view are getting awfully complex and difficult to keep track of.
The most amazing thing is, as Digby noted yesterday, that the traditional media seems to be in denial that such a system exists.
RevDeb @ 20
That does seem to be a missing link. These people may be suffering but someone is being paid to deliver their votes.
I ran across this article on Talk To Action regarding the Hindu Right and the Christian Right, from an article by Margaret Nussbaum in the Chronicle of Higher Education.
Quite interesting.
Bookwoman, on your first point about needing an enemy — this is crucial for all fear-based movements. The Christtian Right sets up a world they do not know (such as the Muslim world) and posits that this world seeks to destroy us. The reaction to fear is always the desire to dominate. It is a nice leap and one that works well for this and all totalitarian movements. The feeding of this sense of moral superiority, mixed with this fear and desire to dominate is used to herd the masses within the movement to call for their own disempowerment. Hannah Arendt, Karl Popper, Fritz Stern, Sabastian Hafner and Canetti in his great work Crowds and Power all explain this in depth.
on the issue of the rhetorics of fascism:
it has been said–albeit somewhat reductively– that a language is a dialect with a bank and a navy.
would it be fair to say that fascism is a secular ideology similarly caparisoned?
and mussolini, the inventor of modern fascism, didn’t he borrow the architecture of its structures and institutions from the Church, long a force for ‘reaction’ in Europe?
so the affinities of religious zealots for fascism are bred in the bone, as it were, innit?
/
Chris, thanks for coming by today to talk about your book, which has gone into my Amazon cart. (click the linky at the top left, folks, to ensure FDL gets its little piece).
Do you think the theocratic elements of the GOP will seek to splinter the party if Fred Thompson or Rudy Giuliani are the nominee? Or will these elements wait for a November defeat to completely purge non-believers from the GOP? It does not seem to me that the coalition, as currently bound, can hold.
Thanks again for stopping by today.
Chris Hedges @ 28
Undoubtedly rooted in patriarchy, then.
Juslin, yes, this is the sad part. Those who are pushed out of the movement — the backsliders — become essentially non-persons. There is a terrible cruelty to this movement, although it cloaks itself in the Christian vocabulary of love and compassion. And I really think these preachers are amoral, ready to do anything to advance their own wealth and power. I guess I can live with pimp. Chris
I have not read the book. Do you have demographic research that the dispossed have turned to mega churches? I ask because our local mega church, McLean Bible Church, is where AOL founder Steve Case goes to church and where Ken Starr used to go to church. Not exactly salt of the earth.
It is worth keeping in mind that Pat Robertson is the late Senator Robertson’s son and was educated at Yale.
Chris,
To what extent do you believe the assault on the middle class is driven by FEAR?
Chris Hedges @ 22
Not too surprising, I suppose, that the economic policies of the Republicans (and certain Democrats) seem to be accentuating that despair. At the very least, they do nothing to ameliorate it, believing that it’s “the private sector” that should be doing such things.
RevDeb @ 20
I thought about that the minute I heard the phrase. You vote for me and I will funnel the public purse your way. Faith based graft would be closer to the mark.
Ot, but Christy is live on Sam Seder’s show and we are discussing it on the prior thread.
Jane, coming out of the traditional media (I spent 15 years at The New York Times) you are correct. They don’t get it. They don’t get it because they are avowedly secular instituions that, to put it crudely, think all religious people are dumb. And so they see any religious as sort of a buffoon. They are mystified as to why so many American follow them and even more mystified as to why they are so hated. The response is to try to reach out to these groups — an impossiblity. Look at Falwell’s obit in the NY Times. His own censors could not have done a better job of hiding from us the fact that he rose to power as one of the south’s arch segregationists and built his empire on message of hate and bigotry, although these targets changed from African-Americans and communists to Muslims and gays and “secular Humanists” — whatever they are. So yes, I think the mainstream press, largely isolated now from working class America, ignorant of religion and distainful of belief, have not served us well. Chris
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 28
During my internship year, many years ago, the minister did a sermon on Kristallnacht. I did the reading. It was the “Solution to the Jewish Problem.” I did not attribute it until after I read it. The words came from Martin Luther. When I announced that there was an audible gasp in the congregation.
Yes, religious zealotry for fascism has a long history.
Alice @ 36
that would clearly be appropriate fodder for Dems’ investigative browsing…
except they’d be excoriated for pursuing the godly with a secular ‘agenda.’
and so will never do it…
imho
RevDeb, as you may know there is very little accountability for the faith-based money (all taxpayer funds) and how and where it is spent. We know it is now in excess of $ 2 billion, but how it is used has, to my knowledge, never been spelled out. I would assume they use the funds to bolster their infrastructure and base. Chris
Chris Hedges @ 38
My father always thought that was why they hated Jimmy Carter so much. He is a Christian who expects to be taken seriously. They are far more comfortable with Falwell who never expected to be respected so much as paid.
Chris Hedges @ 41
It can all be investigated. Say what you will about the federal government, it keeps meticulous records, especially where money is concerned. There is elaborate procurement and contract management software that can tell you every little step right down to who entered the data.
Chris Hedges @ 41
Money is fungible. Whatever money the feds put into marginally secular programs church-run programs frees up an equivalent amount of money to be used elsewhere–i.e., to continue building their parallel information systems.
i find the correlation btw the right-wing and the fundy church to be strange – when one reads the bible or more apt the new testament – jesus’s words – there’s clearly a progressive bent …. fundies seem to follow old testament teaching to move their members backwards – it’s definitely not the jesus doctrine
Jane Hamsher @ 25
It’s not just the “Christians” who have a parallel information system. In a way, so do we, as do the right wing. It’s all a bit troubling, but I have no idea what to do.
While we’re talking about parallels, though, I find some interesting parallels between articles of faith being increasingly complicated, fundies remind me a lot of 9/11 deniers in that regard. In their case, too, as some of their beliefs are punctured, they create increasingly complex rationalizations to explain them. There’s something compellingly similar there, in that ignoring reality seems to engender a need for increasingly complex myths to rationalize a belief that can’t stand up to scrutiny.
I guess I prefer my beliefs simple and unprovable. ;-)
Alice @ 42
Except for the 9 billion that went missing in Iraq. Somehow I would believe that a good chunk of that 2 billion will be just as hard to trace. But that’s because I am a cynic ;-)
Tokin l’brul, well, the early church was a despotic institution and certainly ritualized and codified effective forms of control. I would look at Robert O. Paxton’s Anatomy of Fascism, for, as Paxton points out, there is no real ideology to fascism — unlike communism. Fascism is more a series of actions, a form of behavior. It is why I began my book with the 14 points of eternal fascism as compiled by Umberto Eco. Mussolini started out as a socialist — as did Hitler — who then went on to disempower the industrial class, create the corporate state, defanging labor unions in the process. Fascism is never pure, as Paxton points out. It, unlike communism, always builds alliances with traditional conservatives and industrialists, alliances that are often uneasy. I see this in the Christian Right and the neo-cons. The neo-cons have no time for religion, other than as an opiate to keep people quiet and submissive. You see the tension over immigration and it is interesting that Bush sided, angering his base in the Christian Right, with the corporatists. Totalitarian movements owe a lot to the church, certainly, but modern totalitarianism, especially in an age of total war, is a distinctly modern invention. Chris
Very glad to have Chris Hedges here to discuss American Fascists. I am waiting for my copy to arrive and cannot wait to read it.
Here in what used to be the heart of unions, the home of the automotive industry, good paying secure jobs actually worked as tool by which the fundamentalists could work on the blue collar population. While jobs and pay were good, workers spent less of their time organizing to protect themselves; they spent more time concentrating on pet issues, like gun control and abortion. They began to vote not in sync with the interests of their unions, but on single issues — we call them Reagan Democrats, in my neck of the woods. All the while their safety nets were being chipped away by the same people that offered to prevent gun control and stop abortion, at a time when it was already clear a sea change was underway in manufacturing and that jobs would go wherever labor was cheapest.
There was more than this going on, though; the unions were not respected by their own members because of infighting and corruption, making it more difficult to listen to union leadership.
By the time the unions’ rank and file began to come to their senses, it was too late.
In my county there are city neighborhoods that were vibrant and busy during the seventies, populated by second and third-generation blue collar folks. Now as much as 75% of some neighborhood are for sale or abandoned. There has been a steady stream of white-collar flight for the suburbs, increasing the disconnect between people with capital and those without (as I think about it, I can’t name but two people with a white collar job in this city any longer…).
I’m hoping that Chris’s book will provide a few more pieces to this puzzle so that we can start to rebuild in the wake of the socio-economic and political hurricane that slowly worked over this state for the last two decades.
juslin @ 45
As Chris Hedges points out in this book, there are at least a few bits in the New Testament for right wing folks to hang their hats on. To me, it’s as much a case of them everyone picking the parts they like, and ignoring the parts they don’t.
IANABS (Biblical Scholar, that is).
Hi Chris, I was wondering what you think the future of the Republican party will be like?
The immigration debate has shown a split between the party between big money folk looking to exploit cheap labor alongside a more bigoted or manipulated wing. Do you think this debate (or other events) could be a wake up call to many of these people to the fact that the Republican party does not remotely cater to their real interests?
juslin @ 45
I’ve seen bumperstickers: “Jesus Was a Liberal.”
The Dems in Congress, imho, are about as likely to launch investigations into the allocation and distribution of Federal funds by ‘faith-basd iniatives’ as the coast guard is to being able to refloat the titanic.
hunh-unh…
juslin @ 45
More like the “jus’ pay me” doctrine…
Here’s the Mormon Temple in San Diego. Regular Mormon folk can’t attend services, but can only go there to be married.
http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/sandiego/
Chris Hedges @ 15
The Third Wave is also known under the title “You Will Do As Directed.” It’s in the Facing History book and also on line under the title The Third Wave.
It’s a 1972 classroom experiment that the teacher stumbled into as he tried to answer the question of how the German people could not have known what was going on around them. I assume it is a true story and very frightening as I can see it happening very easily today.
Juslin, I agree. I grew up in the church. My father was a Presbyterian minister and my mother, who was a professor, also went to seminary. I graduated from divinity school, although I was not ordained. And becuase I am Biblically literate — unlike most of their critics — I am a little more attune to how they misrepresent and distort the Bible to fit their dark ideological agenda. There are passages in the Bible — look at Leviticus or parts of Exodus or Paul — that are morally indefensible. And these passges that talk about hating homosexuals or blessing war and genocide form the core of the message of the Christian Right. The Rapture, as many of wyou probably know, is not in the Bible. The word itself is never mentioned. And while these people talk about acculturating American society with the Christian religion they have done the opposite. They have acculturated the Christian religion with the worst aspects of American capitalism and imperialism. They have fused Christian iconography and language with the language and iconograpy and language of American nationalism. I saw this in the former Yugoslavia, Iran and in groups such as Hamas and it is toxic and dangerous. Chris
James F. Trumm @ 50
I’ve got the t-shirt. I do have to be careful where I wear it though.
Rayne @ 48
I hope so, too. The area I grew up in, while it benefits from being near New York and Philadelphia, used to be a vibrant manufacturing area. Now it’s a land of diminished expectations. I can’t really speak to whether dominionist Christianity is taking hold there, but I wouldn’t be too surprised if it were.
Jane Elliot’s ground-breaking and frightening studies with nebraska 5th graders will make yer blood run cold.
Jane, you make a good point. These people yearn to justify faith through a complex and bizarre pseudo-science. In this they are a distinctly modern movement. They know they can never go back to the pre-modern era when the Bible alone was enough. And so we get the Creation Museum and creation science and intelligent design and fake studies that prove abstinence works, etc. The Nazis did the same thing with Eugenics to justify their weird racial theories. And the more thay are assaulted by the rational world the more their own theories take on a twilight complexity that baffles the rest of us. This is because this movement cannot deal with mystery. It needs and yearns for certitude, which by the way is not a form of faith. Chris
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 59
Interesting link, but I don’t see anything about fifth graders.
Rayne @ 49
This is similar to what I have seen in Virginia, minus the union element. The white middle class began to be receptive to this during the sixties, when they were economicaly secure, but when their social structures were being challenged. By the time they began to come to their senses the factories had already moved overseas.
Chris Hedges @ 57
Welcome Chris, I confess (ha!) that I have not yet read your book, but I plan to. My father was a minister and I consider him to be my own personal fascist. But I never heard of the Rapture until TDS made fun of it a few weeks ago. I thought it was some snake-handling speaking in tongues wacko thing.
How widespread is this belief in the rapture? It sounds like 70 heavenly virgins for jihad…
To me, these Pat Robertson types seem more like Pharisees than folks who found the light. Especially considering the above comments from juslin who state they abandon their own poor in need. Smacks of vampirism & exploitation to the max.
Cujo359 @ 58
I wouldn’t be surprised, either. Grand Rapids MI is a hotbed of Dominionists — I give you Dick DeVos, recent gubernatorial candidate, whose family and corporate empire is in the top 20 donors to the RNC and Bush/Cheney, also brother-in-law to Blackwater CEO and founder Erik Prince. Cannot figure out how the Van Andel-DeVos Amway/Alticor came to replace the furniture industry in that part of Michigan; I should do more homework on this.
And then there’s Rep. Pete Hoekstra within a stone’s throw, reflecting the extremely conservative Dutch Calvinists.
Wouldn’t be surprised to find one or the other variant in your neck of the woods, maybe with a different ethnic origin.
I haven’t read the book nor the comments here at the lake but I do want to make some points that may or may not have been made;
presontt bush was a fascist, he was a Nazi supporter, Prescott Bush (father of George 1) made the majority of the bush fortune financing the war effort of Hitler himself, he and his partners along with Averell and Roland Harriman.
this maggot was even relieved of his assets with the Union Bank under the “Trading with the Enemy Act”.
he was an enemy of the state, worse then a nazi sympathizer he was a nazi enabler
“the patriot act” looks like it was pauperized from Hitlers “the enabling act”
and every bit of rhetoric about this war follows the template Hitler used for his regime
“party loyalty” above all, wrap anything in a flag and call anyone that points out their depravity, their thieving and their lies becomes “a traitor”
the “neo con” movement is fascist, they want corporations to control this government, they want the public OUT of government participation and we surely live in scary times
Hi Chris,
I bought and read your book shortly after it came out and have since loaned it to a friend, so I don’t have it in front of me for reference. It really struck a chord with me. A week or so I finished reading Michael Weinstein’s (and Davin Seay’s) With God On Our Side: One Man’s War Against an Evangelical Coup in the Military, which addresses the same issue from a different angle, and if anything I found that even more alarming. I was dimly aware of the growing presence of the evangelicals in the Services, but had not realized the depth, breadth and tenacity of their penetration. What is especially alarming is the aggressiveness of the present administration’s civilian DoD leadership against Weinstein’s efforts to expose and counter the widespread religious discrimination.
I’m curious whether you are aware of Weinstein’s work and/or had any contact or coordination with him. Perhaps there’s a way you and he could coordinate your efforts at exposing these dangers.
For anyone’s interest, below is a link to Weinstein’s Military Religious Freedom foundation.
http://militaryreligiousfreedom.org/
Rayne, much of my family (on my mother’s side) live in old mill towns in Maine. I have watched the same process. The towntowns — once vibrant when I was a boy — are now pot-holed, boarded up wrecks. The steady, decent paying jobs are gone. People work for two-thirds of what they got a couple of decades ago without benefits or health insurance. And they know now that these jobs, the good ones, are never coming back. This has foced couples to each take on jobs. But it has also led to a realization that there is little hope for their children. As these communities have fractured there has been a rise in all the ills that come when communities fall apart — crime, alcohol and drug abuse, domestic violence, broken homes, etc. And this breakdown — I think its safe to say that for these people the end of the world is no longer an abstraction — has pushed them over the edge, into the arms of the charaltans who promise them this world of magic. We live in a country where the top 1 percent have amassed more wealth than the bottom 90 percent combined. This figure alone should terrify all of us who care about the democratic state. The radical Christian Right is the political and social mutation caused by these inequities and injustices. Until we reincorporate these people back into American society — think New Deal and reversing the worst abuses of NAFTA and corporate bail out — we are doomed. Chris
Chris Hedges @ 57
Thank you, Chris.
I wish the MSM would start asking the Christianists if cheeseburgers were as sinful as being gay, but that would assume interviewers (and viewers) who had actually read the Bible.
Imagine – Rev Phelps taking out after McDonald’s.
I won’t hold my breath.
Cujo359 @ 62
that was where she started…
the site, i guess–i din’t look too carefully at it, at first–is about the seminars she directs, right?
but the work is of a piece with the zimbardo study (’71? wasn’t there an earlier one, Milgram? i fergit) about the susceptibility of people to the abuse of power and the ways of internalizing defense of it…
.
How widespread is this belief in the rapture?
Not too widespread in VA, but it is an old belief. I heard a funny story by a southern pundit about gettng lost in a grocery store as a small child and thinking his mother had been raptured. So some people are raised with such beliefs.
The Denver Drinking Liberally host and SquareState.net blogger johne send the following:
Chris –
Have you read Steeplejacking: How the Christian Right is Hijacking Mainstream Religion, or are you familiar with this infilatration?
It sounds very scary to me — how big of a problem is it?
Kirk: By sinful cheeseburgers, are you referring to the unhealthy, obesity aspect, or to the biblical prohibition of mixing meat and dairy products?
do-si-do, I never thought of the Rapture as the equivilent of the 70 virgins, but I think you may have a point. It certainly is a bizarre construct, a kind of spiritual Darwinism that sees the earth destroyed, perhaps by a longed for nuclear war, and believers lifted naked up into heaven. But I think these people DO believe it. This is why it is so frustrating to argue with them from a rational persepctive. They never hear it. But we can’t hate them or look down on them for this. Rather, we have to recognize that we as a society betrayed and abandonded them. The best way to blunt this movement is a massive anti-poverty campaign, jobs, good schools, health insurance and a government that again regulates industry on behalf of its citizens. I am aware of how difficult this will be and do not even predict it will happen, but I think it is the best route to save us from despotism. Chris
-ck-
Talk2action.org does a lot of writing about the IRD, the folks who have been infiltrating the main line churches for a long time in order to split them over the wedge issues. The IRD has been very effective in doing so.
That blog is the “go to” place to learn about the right wing nuts, what they are up to and how to counter what they are doing.
i’m no bible scholar just spent years in church til i recovered my own mind … most fundies are followers of apostle paul who seemed to hate lots if people – women gays etc wasn’t so kind to all this ostentation the modern chirches have – favored home churches at least to my reading of paul…
Chris Hedges @ 67
Thanks, Chris.
I wonder whether you have any comments you’d like to share about the possibility that the political right actively sought to co-opt the religious right as a tool to support their causes. Personally, I believe the lynchpin is the Heritage Foundation (and Brent Bozell in particular), encouraging the use of non-profits to attack the left by focusing on issues while barred from supporting specific candidates. But reading Rick Perlstein’s Before the Storm didn’t fully bring the fingerprints or footprints into view for me, although his aggregation of the political right’s history was solid. ??
i live in Western Pennsylvania near the Ohio border and would like to point out… in a not self-righteous context… since Jane asked, how do folks who lost those good jobs support themselves now?
From talking to locals, e.g. at the barber shop, i have discovered the reality of what i call ‘white man’s welfare:’ many many of them are sustaining on disability checks, particularly veterans of the Vietnam conflict.
The irony is that conversations with such people often turn to defamations of the lazy people on welfare (hidden racism) and illegal immigrants (ditto). It never occurs to them that they are supported by a slightly more sophisticated version of “the dole.”
Again, not intended to be ironic or unkind–just realistic.
I’ve only just started reading your book, Chris. Just looking through the ToC, though, my eye fell on two that I can’t wait to get to: The Cult of Masculinity and God: The Commercial.
I’ve thought of those two forces in particular, hypermasculinity and hypervenality, as deadly to a free society. Given the punch of Biblical certitude, and they’re frightening indeed.
Chris Hedges @ 61
Some smart-ass commentary I posted the other day over at Salon.com’s article about the Creation Museum:
______
Two Cheers for Uncertainty
Hastie & Dawes have a chapter in their book “Rational Choice in an Uncertain World” with the heading “Two Cheers for Uncertainty.” The point therein being that perfect, comprehensive certainty would make this corporeal life essentially meaningless. Think about it.
Science is always at a problematic forensic disadvantage with respect to refuting morons like these Christiabanists because the latter admit to no uncertainty, e.g. from the AiG “Statement of Faith” -
Fundamental to science, however, is a recognition of intractable uncertainty, and consequent proper humility in the expression of findings.
My advice to all of these cartoon-intellect crybaby dramatist clowns: Look, since you already know it all, and since this world sucks so bad in light of its persistent, irritating, ghastly cohorts of queers, questioners, and assorted secularists, DRINK THE GODDAMN KOOL-AID EN MASSE AND MOVE ON TO PARADISE! Belly up, I’m buyin’.
You already know how great it’s gonna be. Why wait around in this epistemological cesspool? Go to Poppa. The rest of us have work to do.
That’s one central thing separating the Islamic Fundies from our whiny, tiresome Christiabanists; the former continue to demonstrate the courage of their equally bizarre convictions daily, boom, splat.
______
I’m glad I live in Vegas now – “Seven Deadly Sins, One Convenient Location” – far removed from that Tennessee and Alabama bible belt dopiness I endured for two decades.
Now, they can believe all this silly stuff all they want, but when it crosses over into trying to take over secular government power, Homie Loudly and Longly Don’t Tink So.
It seems decades ago Sinclair Lewis saw this coming when he wrote:”When facism comes to America it will wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross.”
I grew up going to a Presbyterian church. I went to an Assembly of God church in Ohio for a couple of years and heard about the Rapture for the first time.
The dates of the hymns were all right around the 1920s and teens, if I remember right. I read that there was a boom in revivals, fundamentalism, etc. right around then.
Is this what we’re seeing now? Hard times = fundamentalist churches?
Perris, George Bush is a minor, unimportant figure, a front guy for the fusion of the Christian Right and the corporatists. he has repeatedly displayed an utter lack of curiosity and intellectual depth. He is the one pushed out front and handed the script. And while you are right about his grandfather making money under the Nazis, so did IBM and a lot of people. There was a lot of sympathy in the 1930s among American industrialists for the Nazis who saw fascism, or an American form of it, as an effective counterweight to the New Deal. Mussolini was plastered on the 1934 cover of Fortune and praised for his defanging of labor unions and his empowerment of an industrial elite at the expense of the working class. Fortunately for us we had powerful progressive forces such as labor unions and an unfettered, independent press that fought back and gave us the New Deal, which saved us. These progressive forces are now gone and I don’t know what we are going to do to battle back. Chris
On space and public life. I agree. I live in Montreal in a densely packed neighborhood, Hassidim on one side, Greeks on the other and the rest of us all mixed in one way or another. When you walk on the street you see people you know, from the shops, from work, from political life. Today, walking a half block from our car (we spent the weekend in the country) to our apartment we bumped into no fewer than three acquaintances.
Flashback to the US. A week ago we were vacationing in Tucson and Sedona. Everything spread out; lifeless malls. I couldn’t imagine how people can live that way, in gated communities that keep the outside world out and the inside world in. They can have their swimming pools! I wouldn’ trade my life for that life for anything less than a whole lot of money, and even then, it would be a hard choice.
When you don’t bump up against people personally the way we do — we’ve met our mayor, the premier of the province, some bitchy ministers from the other party, all on the street within two blocks of our house– you miss something real. My wife addressed the PM once when he bumped into her at the local supermarket and gave him a piece of her mind. This is a big city and yet we can interact as though we were in a small town. I don’t see that in the US. It was very sad. I come from there.
I can count the number of books on one hand that I actually bought at a big box bookstore like Borders. I saw Chris on C-Span and ran out to get this book. I was not disappointed. The discussion is framed easily so that even blockheads like me could understand it. Truly informed and non-hysterical reasoning. Outstanding. Thanks Chris Hedges.
In a wonderful book called After Auschwitz, the author, Rubinstein describes the changes that led to fascism in Germany. Basically, there was a yearning for the good old days when society was based on relationships, rather than on contracts. This is what the megachurches represent to me. As a Jew, I feel threatened by it because of the historical parallels. Whenever I hear someone describe another as a “good Christian,” it makes my skin crawl as if he described the other as “a good fascist.” Chris, how do you assess the attitude of megachurch members to the Jewish community?
Thanks for being here.
Minnesotachuck, I do know Mickey and will see him tommorrow in Washington where his foundation is giving me the Thomas Jefferson award. I think his message is very important — see also Jeremy Scahill’s book on Blackwater — because we are forming a mercenary army that, in a period of instability can be used to dismantle what is left of our democracy. Here is a piece on this issue I wrote for today’s Philadelphia Inquirer:
Armed units from the private security firm Blackwater USA opened fire in Baghdad streets twice in two days last week It triggered a tense standoff between the security contractors and Iraqi forces, a grim reminder that the war in Iraq may be remembered mostly in our history books for empowering and building America’s first modern mercenary army.
There are an estimated 20,000 to 30,000 armed security contractors working in Iraq, although there are no official figures and some estimates run much higher. Security contractors are not counted as part of the coalition forces. When the number of private mercenary fighters is added to other civilian military “contractors” who carry out logistical support activities such as food preparation, the number rises to about 126,000.
“We got 126,000 contractors over there, some of them making more than the Secretary of Defense,” said House Defense Appropriations Subcommittee Chairman John Murtha. “How in the hell do you justify that?”
The privatization of war hands an incentive to American corporations, many with tremendous political clout, to keep us mired down in Iraq. But even more disturbing is the steady rise of this modern Praetorian Guard. The Praetorian Guard in ancient Rome was a paramilitary force that defied legal constraints, made violence part of the political discourse, and eventually plunged the Roman Republic into tyranny and despotism. Despotic movements need paramilitary forces that operate outside the law, forces that sow fear among potential opponents and are capable of physically silencing those branded by their leaders as traitors. And in the wrong hands Blackwater could well become that force.
American taxpayers have so far handed a staggering $ 4 billion to “armed security” companies in Iraq like Blackwater, according to House Oversight and Government Reform Committee Chairman Rep. Henry Waxman. Tens of billions more have been paid to companies that provide logistical support. Rep. Jan Schakowsky of the House Intelligence Committee estimates up to forty cents of every dollar spent on the occupation has gone to war contractors. It is unlikely that any of these corporations will push for an early withdrawal. The profits are too lucrative.
Mercenary forces, like Blackwater, operate beyond civilian and military law. They are covered by a 2004 edict passed by American occupation authorities in Iraq that immunizes all civilian contractors in Iraq from prosecution.
Blackwater, which is barely a decade old, has migrated from Iraq to set up operations in the United States and nine other countries. It trains Afghan security forces and has established a base a few miles from the Iranian border. The huge contracts from the war – including $ 750 million from the State Department since 2004 — have allowed Blackwater to amass a fleet of more than 20 aircraft, including helicopter gun-ships. Jeremy Scahill, the author of Blackwater: The Rise of the World’s Most Powerful Mercenary Army, points out that Blackwater has also constructed “the world’s largest private military facility — a 7,000 acre compound near the Great Dismal Swamp of North Carolina.” Blackwater also recently opened a facility in Illinois (”Blackwater North”) and, despite local opposition, is moving ahead with plans to build another huge training base near San Diego. The company recently announced that it was creating a private intelligence branch called “Total Intelligence.”
Erik Prince, who founded and runs Blackwater, is a man who appears to have little time for the niceties of democracy. He has close ties with the radical Christian Right and the Bush White House. He champions his company as a patriotic extension of the U.S. military. His employees, in an act as cynical as it is dishonest, take an oath of loyalty to the Constitution. But what he and his allies have built is a mercenary army, paid for with government money, which operates outside the law and without Constitutional constraint.
Mercenary units are a vital instrument in the hands of despotic movements. Communist and fascist movements during the last century each built rogue paramilitary forces. And the appearance of Blackwater fighters, heavily armed and wearing their trademark black uniforms, patrolling the streets of New Orleans in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, may be a grim taste of the future. In New Orleans Blackwater charged the government $ 240,000 a day.
“’It cannot happen here’ is always wrong,” the philosopher Karl Popper wrote, “a dictatorship can happen anywhere.”
If the United States falls into a period of instability caused by another catastrophic terrorist attack, an economic meltdown that triggers social unrest or a series of environmental disasters, these paramilitary forces, protected and assisted by fellow ideologues in the police and military, could ruthlessly abolish what is left of our eroding democracy. War, with the huge profits it hands to corporations and right-wing interests such as the Christian Right, could become a permanent condition. And the thugs with automatic weapons, black uniforms and wraparound sunglasses who appeared on the streets in New Orleans could appear on our streets.
There are a number of books one can read about those who believe in The Rapture. Many more don’t than do.
The Rapture Exposed: The Message of Hope in The Book of Revelation – By: Barbara R. Rossing
The Theocons: Secular America Under Siege – by Damon Linker
Kingdom Coming: The Rise of Christian Nationalism – By: Michelle Goldberg
End Times Fiction A Biblical Consideration Of The Left Behind Theology – By: Gary DeMar
Even something written a bit ago by Grace Halsell contributes: Prophecy and Politics: Militant Evangelists on the Road to Nuclear War
Just a few ‘religion’ books on my shelf without getting up and, like, looking.
ck, I have read stepeljacking and will do and event with the authors on June 6 in New York City. I think this is widespread, but they know more than I about this subject. Chris
As for the marriage of the Christian Right and Fascism, it’s easy to see why there is such a natural fit with BushCo — George Herbert Walker and his son-in-law Prescott Bush were early adopters of Adolf Hitler and the National Socialist Party.
Heir to the Holocaust — Prescott Bush, $1.5 million, and Auschwitz: how the Bush family wealth is linked to the holocaust
John-Loftus.com reprint
Chris Hedges @ 82
Do you think the LaHaye’s Council for National Policy (CNP) is part of the nexus that binds these interests together — theocons, neocons, and corporate-cons? George W Bush spoke to this group’s meeting in 1999; the speech has never been released to the public, but many say it was a clear discussion (”the script”) of his personal belief in The Rapture and America’s role in bringing it to pass.
Thanks for the reply @ 74 Chris,
proof in the pudding is how this administration failed so completely in their response to Katrina. One would think that this would put the lie to any christian “compassion” this admin. stands for. why would any other person down on their luck fare any better with bushco?
As Colbert said: poor people, stop being poor. You’re making us all look bad.
Chris Hedges @ 86
Ugh. I feel sick. I wonder if the funding that is likely continuing for the former Office of Strategic Influence is paying for this particular expansion into civilian-provided intelligence.
We should be rioting in the streets, demanding defunding of contractors; perhaps that’s how we start the draw down, return the work to the military and put the contractors out of business.
Rayne, there is little doubt that the political right saw in the Christian Right (best to call them Dominionists since they neither represent the traditional beliefs of evangelicals or fundamentalists, none of who advocated taking secular power and building a Christian America) an important alliance and built this alliance. This is what led them to recapture the White House with Reagan, who despite all the lavish praise recently, began the process of dismantling the government and turning it over to the corporations, a process the Clinton White House, which cared more about power than about protecting the American people, did nothing to stop and indeed aided with NAFTA, deregulating the FCC and throwing a million people off the welfare rolls. Chris
Chris Hedges @ 83
thanx for the response chris
yes, they saw naziism as the answer to the new deal…but so do the current “concervatives”, they’ve reframed fascism, they put a new spin on it and called it “privitization”
the despise the middle class, they despise public education, they despise the 40 hour work weak, they despise the very notion a lower classman can hope to retire
they even hate public water supply
what can we do?
where can we get the progressives to do what needs to be dnoe?
we have to reframe the dialogue, we have to point out things like;
unions are a resource corporations have to purchase and just as they have to bargain for the raw material they purchase they also have to bargain for the resource known as labor.
they are not allowed to say “we pay this”, they have to bargain for what they pay just like they bargain for the steel they use to build their cars.
labor HAS to have the ability to bargain collectively as a unit
and THAT is how the dialogue needs to be discussed progressively
we can do the same with EVERY corporatists point of view, we have to frame the conversation the way WE want it discussed not the way they want it duscussed
Thanks again for coming by Chris and congratulations on your award!
Thanks also to firepups and their informative responses about the rapture. Intend to do some follow up on the many book reccs here.
cheers
CD @ 73
LOL!
(sorry for delay – I was having a snack :)
Reagan also professed end-times views, and it was hard for his handlers to keep him quiet about them. Gorbachev has spoken of this from their meeting in Helsinki, I think.
Lamb Cannon, this echoes what my own family believes and says in Maine. I think the closer you get to the bottom the more you seek to, at least in your own mind, distance yourself from the desititute, believing that you are different, that through hard work you will make it and they are poor because they do not share your work ethic or values. Sadly, this often comes out in the form of racism and bigotry. But I can forgive, or at least understand, this form of bigotry. Chris
boadicia, hypermasculinity, or the cult of masculinity, lies at the core of all totalitarian movements. The power structure in the family — dominant male, subservient wife and obedient children — is to be replicated in the church, the community and the nation. Most of the megachurches are built around a cult of personality where the preacher, who is male, is in touch with God and cannot be questioned or challenged. Chris
Chris Hedges @ 22
Chris – Don’t you think he current strand of fundamentalist thinking goes even further back than just the change in society and loss of manufacturing jobs.
For centuries people had a reliable world view, flat earth, we’re down here. God’s up there, simple. Since Galileo and Darwin and other discoveries over a few short centuries, this world view has been turned upside down. The response of a large number of people has been insecurity, uncertainty and fear. And the churches have done a terrible job in re-understanding, restating and reconceptualizing religious insight for the everyday person. Isn’t one of the factors that makes a fertile ground for totalitarian magical thinking (and worse) that it is a desperate attempt to hold together with baling wire an untenable and obsolete cosmology.
We could do better to act with compassion to those who are so fearful, while at the same time speaking out against the religious right as you are doing…
David
Hi Chris! Thanks for being here, and thanks to FDL for being here!
It seems clear that the US Air Force is the service most highly infiltrated by Christianist. What about the other branches? I assume that the Navy would be the least infiltrated, but I have no idea.
Here is an idea religion can have freedom only so long as they don’t try and take away OTHER people’s freedom. Otherwise they lose their tax exempt status! If you belong to an anti gay, woman etc religon that is your choice if members of your relgion get on TV or the supreme court and start pushing THEIR ideas about how the REST of us should live well thats political action and then they should register as a pac and get taxed. I think the Catholics have slipped into Facism with their politicans who support abortion should get excomunicated but these same Bishops say NOTHING about the death penalty. I say double taxation for hypocrisy!
old gold, yes, sinclair lewis got it. Fascism is not going to return with brown shirts and Nazi uniforms, it is going to come wrapped in the American flag and clutching the Christian cross. And, I am afraid, it is already onthe march. Chris
Minnesotachuck @ 67
I ordered the book since reading a story somewhere about Weinstein. The story had more to do with a veteran who was Jewish who was being evangelized at the VA amongst other military environments.
Like you, I ordered Chris’s book when it first came out and have loaned it out several times. One thing about having degrees in religious studies and theology, and being superpolitical, folks know you probably have books they’d love to read. Religion is fascinating.
Wordsmith @ 88
I’m in San Antonio, home of John Hagee, who is one of the proponets of the Rapture and End times lunacies. He and I know Tom Delay have both stated that a large part of their support for Israel is based on the belief that a whole Israel is necessary to help bring about the end-times and the necessary religious wars.
I also know that there is a whole cottage industry or more based on the End times ficiton and that most of the novels of Tim Lehaye center on this premise.
Margot, yes, I think the more powerless people become the more they believe inthe irrational, in magic. When things are hard you cannot help yourself, Joan Dideon wrote of this in The Year of Magical Thinking. I felt it in war. You can even tell yourself it is irrational, but you do it anyway. Chris
Chris Hedges @ 68
Oh Chris, So brilliantly explained. So much to think about.
Chris Hedges @ 94
Chris, before he was Rep. Capps, the late Rep. was Professor of Religious Studies at UCSB.
In the spring quarter of the 81-82 school year he gave an amazing course – a series of lectures bringing in Religious Right leaders (gloating after Reagan’s triumph), Rethug leaders (gloating and totally unguarded) and some clever scholars/writers who placed the Rethugs’ avarice for votes and the fundies’ avarice for power in context.
Brilliant, trenchant explanation for what we have seen the last quarter century.
Exactly as you describe – I can’t wait to get your book in my hands.
PS: If anyone knows Rep. Capps [D-Santa Barbara] her husband’s course notes from that term are scholastic treasure.
And today’s news.
When I heard the fundies in ‘82 fantasizing about controlling the government I thought they were nuts (or I smoked waay too much before lecture).
Now I think they were serious, and that’s scary.
What kind of screening do the Navy Seals do for Christian extremeism the Seals connection to Blackwater is starting to make me wonder if they have been infiltrated by Christian first America second types.
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 60
i saw a video of this lesson in a peacemaking class i took in april. it really was horrifying. prejudice created by what color the kids’ eyes were. used as a lesson to teach about prejudice. it was very easy to get the children used to behaving in a racist fashion. there was an additional film doing the same with adults that worked equally “well”.
Knut, you have hit on what I think is a very important point. We in American have physically destroyed the possiblity of community. And this deep isolation and alienation has left tens of millions of Americans in personal and economic despair. This is why the two largest growth areas of the radical Christian right are in the former manufaturing centers such as Ohio and the exurbs, places like Orange County where there are no community centers, no community rituals, usually no sidewalks. This deep disconnectedness is killing us as a nation. Chris
Let us not forget that the whole home schooling movement is dominated by dominionists, and, they are setting up a parallel education universe to match the parallel news distribution system.
TeddySanFran, yes, the CNP is an important group that brings together the corporatists with big bucks and the radicals like LaHaye and otehrs who get the grassroots to mobilize behind economic and political policies that disempower them. Chris
dakine01 @ 106
When you talk about mainstream Protestants (which includes everyone from United Church of Christ to Unitarians) and Catholics, for example, the belief in ‘The Rapture’ is NOT there.
I know about John Hagee….other than an evangelical, I don’t know where exactly to place his ‘theology.’
BOOKWOMAN @ 14
I would also add the work of Anglican theologian James Alison a disciple of Girard.
Big Mitch @ 113
Have some background for this?
Chris,
Where is the hope? It’s my job to try to lift up the hope and I had a hard time of it this morning when preaching about today’s fascism. I know that congressional hearings aren’t enough. Even the next election cycle won’t fix this.
Again, do you see hope for us? and if so, where?
Chris,
Thanks for your book. I also thought that your previous book on war was quite elucidating.
One of the great risks I see is the tendency of the radical right to feel victimized by the whole world.
As their agenda begins to face challenges we are going to see the return, we have already seen glimpses of it, of the McVeigh wing of the far right.
The task will be to place the far right Christianist terrorists on par with the radical Islamic terrorists in order to defang them.
-GSD
Chris Hedges @ 112
The scariest thing I’ve seen recently came when I was driving across the country and every small town has the exact same shopping center. It’s got a Staples and a Dress Barn and a Best Buys and maybe a Bed, Bath & Beyond or a Pier 1. Anyway they are ubiquitous. Much scarier than WalMart to me, I don’t know why but they seem to be a sign that these towns are interchangeable and no longer have any distinct identity to anchor them.
I find the specter quite haunting and ominous.
Wordsmith @ 115
Hagee=extreme fundie rapture believeing wing-nut extraordinaire.
I wasa raised in the Disciples of Christ which is very liberal and there was NEVER any of the rapture nonsense. And my father was traditional UMC. However, being small town Kentucky, we did have a share of the fundies who have grown more prevalent back there than when I was growing up.
Chris Hedges @ 101
I think this may be slightly OT, but do you have any thoughts about how the early Christian church went from relative parity between male and female disciples to the hypermasculinity cul du sac?
(I’m sorry, I’ll try to do my homework better next time and have finished the Book Salon book- hangs head)
Perris, the problem is that with the death of the manufacturing sector (less than 9 percent of jobs are now in this sector, the lowest since the Industrial Revolution) labor unions are spent. The white collar workers now being given pink slips don’t have unions. I don;t want to stir up a debate on Nader, but I will not support any of the candidates that does not make the corproate state the number one issue. If we don not defeat the corporate state there is no way out. Nader has spent hsi whole life fighting them. he gets it. And he gets how, if we don not stop them now, this is the twlight of our democracy. Chris
Hey all, we have just another 15 minutes with Chris. Hope you all saved your best shots for last.
Big Mitch @ 86
The words for those two types of societies are Gemeinschaft and Gesellschaft. (The link is to Wikipedia’s explanation of these terms.)
David s, you are very right. What I mean by this is that no mass movement in modernity can succeed without the imprint of science — or rather pseudo-science. This is the difference with movements in the past. So one MUST pervert the law and science to justify and promote pre-modern belief. This is is what the Nazis did, and it is what the Christian Right is doing with their assault on science and our legal system. Creationism is not about an alternative, it is about making facts interchangeable with opinions, making lies true, allowing people to believe what every they want ot believe. Here is Hannah Arendt on this:
Before they seize power and establish a world according to their doctrines, totalitarian movements conjure up a lying world of consistency which is more adequate to the needs of the human mind than reality itself; in which, through sheer imagination, uprooted masses can feel at home and are spared the never-ending shocks which real life and real experiences deal to human beings and their expectations. The force possessed by totalitarian propaganda – before the movements have the power to drop iron curtains to prevent anyone’s disturbing, by the slightest reality, the gruesome quiet of an entirely imaginary world – lies in its ability to shut the masses off from the real world.
Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism
Chris,
Thank you SO much for taking the time to be with us and answer questions.
Also, thank you for your contribution to the national dialogue and your cogent observations about the sorry state of things. You have given us a lot.
dakine01 @ 121
LOL….extraordinaire! I know about John Hagee. I meant that I don’t know where to place his theology as in with what other fundamentalist churches to align him. No one I knew, except my little fundamentalist family, had heard of ‘the rapture’ and the neighbors who went to the Nazarene or Bible Missionary churches, believed in such a doctrine. I mean, I didn’t believe it – but that’s a long story. The ‘doctrine’ regarding the rapture has only been around since mid-1800s, little later…. 140 years, if that long.
St. Paul was the antichrist–Thomas Jefferson
Fascism will come to the shores of America wrapped in a us flag, and bearing a cross–Sinclair Lewis
Chris Hedges @ 112
Ah. Bowling Alone. We used to have social organizations that many Americans belonged to, entwining disparate members of the community with each other under common missions or traits. We had more connections to loose networks, could find resources we needed across the network when the chips were down.
Fundamentalist and evangelical churches began to fill the void of community organizations; the thing people had in common was their faith and not a social cause, heritage or activity (ex: social causes – Lions Club, Kiwanis; heritage – Sons of Pulaski, Sons of Italy; activity – bowling league, bridge clubs). Consequently the members’ worldviews collapsed, focusing on single issues.
I think this has been a detriment to rebuilding local economies; institutional and community knowledge of skills, talents and resources is locked in pockets and not distributed through networks. Churches do not fill the gap in this respect because this is not their mission and could serve to dilute their efforts.
RevDeb, hope must come not with what we can do, but with continued resistence. We must, onthe one hand, face the gravity of the moment and not sugar coat it with false hope. It is not good. But to give up is to be defated, not just in a material sense, but a spiritual sense. For me real spirituality comes with resistence, even when times are bleak. This is what gives life meaning and integrity. Martin Luther King and Bonhoeffer wrote about this eloquently. To fight, no matter what the odds, is to win, to give hope, so sustainthe divine spark which is love and compassion and tolerance. Chris
Wordsmith, Hagee is one of the wrost of the worst. he represents the fusion of messianic Jews and Messianic Christians who believe they have a divine or moral right to rule one-fith of the world’s population who are Muslim and certainly the 20 percent who are Arab. These people provided the beliefs that helped get us into Iraq and may get us into Iran. Chris
Thanks for coming, Chris Hedges. I have your books, and continue to read anything you write – anywhere. I keep track of you. Have to run; I’ll check back to read the thread later.
Thanks for the Book Salon, here, as well.
Jane Hamsher @ 120
And now you know why I HATE Macy’s. Borg-like, they assimilated regional stores with great character, discarded their brands to become a mega-national department store. Ugh. I still mourn Hudson’s and Marshall Fields.
Dakine01@ 107:
I infer from your comment that you haven’t received and/or read With God On Our Side yet. While Weinstein did relate some incidents re the VA and other services, the bulk of the story had to do with the Air Force, and specifically the AF Academy, of which he is an alumnus (class of 1977). His activism was triggered by the religious harassment his cadet son was receiving combined with the Academy’s refusal to effectively address it.
Phil K @ 103: There definitely is a problem in the other services. Weinstein refers briefly to the USN, as I recall, and of course the Tilman family has exposed the harassment that Pat Tilman received in the Army regarding his atheism. IIRC, one of the officers in his chain of command even offered some snide comment about it after his death. There has even been some speculation that his shooting was deliberate and religiously motivated. His family remains adamant that to this day cover-ups have prevented his death from being adequately investigated.
lies in its ability to shut the masses off from the real world.
Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism
which is the job in the corporate/fascist state of the corporate media…and which is the domain of the most succesfull mass psychology experiment in the history of the farouking world: ‘public relations’
the wall is made of the consumables, more and more of which are always necessary to staunch the floods of loss we experience in the deprivation and limitation of liberties we are taught are our birthright…
if the price is right…
To Chris and everyone who posted–
This has been a great discussion. Thank you all for your questions and comments, and thank you, Chris, for taking time to be with us today.
Boadicia, The problem is not religion but religious orthodoxy. Most moral thinkers – from Socrates, to Christ to Francis of Assisi – eschewed the written word because once things were written down they became, in the wrong hands, codified and used not to promote morality but conformity, subservience and repression.
Those high priests, the religious authorities, along with our modern high priests — technocrats, political philosophers and economists, who assure us that globalization is as inevitable as rain and part of our heritage of freedom — all wrap themselves in the thick cotton wool of obscure and obtuse rhetoric, of jargon, of specialized cant. This rhetoric is used to create a closed language, to prevent communication, to shut out critics. Language is turned from a living and fluid form of moral inquiry to a tool of bondage. The moment the writers of the gospels began to set down the words of Jesus they began to kill the message. The institutional church made sure what little life was left in the message was choked out of existence. There is no room for prophets within religious institutions – indeed within any institutions – for as the theologian Paul Tillich knew all human institutions, including the church, are inherently demonic.
Thanks too Chris for your brave book.
There’s lots more for discussion as we try to understand this movement..
Chris Hedges @ 127
Chris Hedges @ 133
Oh yes! He certainly is and I’m sure dakine realizes this more than I. If any of you get the chance, Terry Gross had Hagee on as a guest. Being 50, I promptly forgot the name of her show! At any rate, it was if not terrifying, illuminating, and I certainly realized the role they (he & his theocon goons) want to play in bringing about the end times.
Thank you Chris Hedges!!
Thanks you all for joining this discussion. I have no television. I live in a house with 5,000 books. So, I feel a deep kinship with you all — readers and thinkers. I heartens me to know you are there. Take care. Yours, Chris
Thank you so much for being here today, Chris. It’s been a great discussion and we really appreciate your time and your passion.
Minnesotachuck @ 136
FWIW, I think you confused me with Wordsmith on the Weinstein stuff…
Perris @ 66:
Per Kevin Phillips’ American Dynasty, IIRC, you are correct regarding Prescott Bush except that the bulk of the family money was not made by him, but by his father-in-law, George Herbert Walker. Both Phillips’ book and (gasp) Kitty Kelly’s The Family: The Real Story of the Bush Dynasty are good reads on this stuff.
Chris Hedges @ 138
Thanks for that; may have to re-read The Alphabet vs. The Goddess with a different mindset keeping that in mind. I wasn’t sold on Schlain’s masculine-letters vs. feminine-pre-letters schism, but perhaps the point is static vs. dynamic.
Greatly appreciate your visit today, Chris. Thank you to you, James Trumm, and Jane; we need this badly.
Nothing scares me more than “believers”. I spent four years in a Lutheran College and never once did I learn about Martin Luther’s “On the Jews and Their Lies”, which he wrote at age 60. I found that out years later. While this is the work we hear about most, he also wrote several others targeting other poor souls. He did no better with “Against the Robbing and Murdering Hordes of Peasants. Luther called for the stabbing and slaying of peasant rebels. Obey your lord and master or kill them. His call was answered and massive numbers of peasants were slaughtered just as Hitler answered Luther’s call. He vehemently lashed out against anyone who didn’t blindly accept his teaching which he referred to as “true Christianity.”
In my classes on religion doctrine I was told I would never be saved because the questions I asked showed I doubted God. As soon as I graduated (did get a great education there, though) I dropped Lutheranism and headed for Berkeley, California. I liked the people going to hell much better than the ones slated for heaven.
Sadly, my southern family loves the religious right and knows Katrina was brought upon them because of the “unfaithful” (that would be me). They believe in the fire and sword vengeance visited upon all who don’t accept their version of Christianity (which has nothing to do with the teaching of Jesus). I would write them off as weird except that almost the entire community were like them. They all amassed guns. They all believe in obeying authority.
Chris, so much of what has happened with the fundies – the flocks, not the twisted shepherds – feels cultural.
OK – there been a deep reservoir of fundamentalism, but in relatively stable proportions in the larger population.
In the late 70’s and early 80’s – without any formal discussion of theology or religious logic (hope that’s not an oxymoron) – a whole bunch of folks in the middle / upper-middle class started going to these fundie churches just as the whole thing was getting off the ground.
No text to cite here – I just lived it. I grew up in the communities where* Focus on the Family and the Dobson-bots metastasized through what once was “Mainstream Protestantism”.
Comfortable to affluent – buoyed by big gains in property values – yet they went for the Fundies.
I still don’t get it.
*Before Dobson went to join up with the Fundie Air Wing in Colorado Springs.
(Ursula Le Guin wrote about that, years from now. But that’s another comment.)
thanx much chris for this salon – its always great to discuss religion w/o rancor… FDL is the place!!
Missed the party, once again, but thanks Chris for this book. REad it a few months ago and will re-read it again after this discussion. Thanks for coming to firedoglake. Please come back soon, join us anytime. Would love to have your take on quotidian things, too.
Jane Hamsher @ 119
I’ve traveled quite a bit to the East Coast and the Southwest in the last couple of decades, and this has been a noticeable trend there. There’s a Best Buy, an Office Depot, and a Walmart just about everywhere. It makes traveling less fun, that’s for sure, because “local character” is either becoming a thing of the past, or it’s the affected form that happens when a local chamber of commerce decides their town needs a tourist attraction.
Kirk, I knew some fundies in the late 60’s, in HS. They were wigged by us DFH’s and went looking for a place with no chance of change. I think that motivates a lot of people in this fastest-changing era of our country’s history.
Thanks for being here, Chris. To say I’ve been enjoying your book wouldn’t quite be true – it’s more like it’s scaring me to death. However, it’s important and well-done.
Thank you Chris!
Really thought-provoking material.
Thank you, Chris – enjoy your 5,000 books!
Thanks for the book you created and for being with us today.
I just want to say that this has been the most awesome thread I’ve ever read anywhere on the internet, let alone just on FDL.
Quaker Girl @ 147: Ah! A fellow recovering Lutheran!
Chris Hedges @ 38
The isolation — yes. Especially for the ones in national TV and radio networChris Hedges @ 123
Manufacturing jobs aren’t the only ones that can be unionized. Just ask the SEIU — they’re working to unionize the service industry, which by its very nature cannot be outsourced overseas.
As for Nader: Remember, he wanted Bush to win in 2000, precisely for the same reasons the German Communists rooted for Hitler: In the hope that he would wreck things so badly that the common people would eventually revolt and the far left would fill the resulting power void. Things didn’t exactly work out that way in either case. (And the Greens aren’t exactly happy with him, either.)
Jane Hamsher @ 120
The scariest thing I’ve seen recently came when I was driving across the country and every small town has the exact same shopping center. It’s got a Staples and a Dress Barn and a Best Buys and maybe a Bed, Bath & Beyond or a Pier 1. Anyway they are ubiquitous. Much scarier than WalMart to me, I don’t know why but they seem to be a sign that these towns are interchangeable and no longer have any distinct identity to anchor them.
I find the specter quite haunting and ominous.
imho, those places are just wal-marts with fancier names, innit?
all the consumerage is still made in china…
.
Thank you for your time this afternoon, Chris (and all you brilliant Firepups).
Goes back to what I always say. There’s only one guarantee. You can’t win if you don’t fight.
wgg: rogue scholar @ 159
I see the visual homgenization as a loss of cultural and regional diversity – a real and permanent erasure of local knowledge and – through absentee owners – local wealth.
Now the provenance of the stuff on the shelves – different issue.
kirk, the globalization–really the outsourcing–of the means of production can be seen as a further–even a primary–form of alienation…the globalized marketplace appropriates, standardizes, and commodifies the uniqueness the loss of which you properly notice. regional diversity is a block to ‘efficient’ marketing. only when orthodoxy prevails–in the confessional AND the check-out line is profitability assured…
innit?
kirk murphy @ 162
i was out of the country between 1967 and 1975. i’d left during civil rights riots in newark, where i worked! i came home, turned on the news and saw a black man and a hispanic woman and a wasp male and was ecstatic thinking the fights had all paid off. there was diversity in the anchors. then they started talking and they all sounded exactly like the wasp males. i thought not only hadn’t we gained, but we’d lost something very valuable. i was very sad that night about that. and have been ever since.
oh – Ursula Le Guin ref upthread?
The Telling
Jane Hamsher @ 25
FDL is a parallel social structure, growing up from the failures of traditional media.
Paging Admiral Sestak–THIS is how to do a thread!
Haven’t read your book, Chris, but caught you on Barsamian’s “Alternative Radio” a while back. Excellent discussion (there and here). I appreciate the quote you provided today about the “good fight;” I think we progressives especially need that reminder after the Blue Dog betrayal of 5/26. (I know I do, anyway; I want to chuck the lot of ‘em.) Thanks for being such a generous soul.
A great thread FDL, Mr. Hedges, and the puppers.
Our struggle for the democratic republic is with corporate facism backed by fundie Christian revisionism. Our struggle is NOT with politics.
I see no way the people of this nation will lay it on the line and fight for their survival.
Get what’s yours, and dig in to survive.
Or get out.
Chris: your main premise explains to me why there are so many loonies in Ohio, which I could not understand before.
Also, unless I missed it, I didn’t see a response to Jane’s initial question about how the neo-poor can afford to give so much to the wackos? Or is it like that scene in Repo Man, where the parents send the college fund to a corrupt dingbat to “buy Bibles for El Salvador”?
You and I both worked in Salvador; I couldn’t resist that one. But how would you explain it?
Finally, one thing that most people ignore, or are ignorant of, is that Fascism is grounded in large part by the idea of the corporate-state, which is subsidized, protected and guaranteed monopoly or oligopoly status by the government.
Fascist ideology seeks social control, but it has nothing to do with killing Jews.
Cheers.
Chris: your main premise explains to me why there are so many loonies in Ohio, which I could not understand before.
Also, unless I missed it, I didn’t see a response to Jane’s initial question about how the neo-poor can afford to give so much to the wackos? Or is it like that scene in Repo Man, where the parents send the college fund to a corrupt dingbat to “buy Bibles for El Salvador”?
You and I both worked in Salvador; so I couldn’t resist that one. But how would you reply to it?
Finally, one thing that most people ignore, or are ignorant of, is that Fascism is grounded in large part by the idea of the corporate-state, which is subsidized, protected and guaranteed monopoly or oligopoly status by the government.
Fascist ideology seeks social control, but it has nothing to do with killing Jews.
Cheers.
Great thread.