Have been on a Beatles kick lately, but this video of the younger Fab Four singing "Help" was too good to miss this morning.
Yesterday, in discussing the Team Libby sentencing arguments memorandum, we got into a few touchier subjects in the comments, which led to a wholesale discussion about thread civility and the sort of tension that has been much more evident for the last few weeks. Egregious had a comment which I thought summed up the problem and the way forward wonderfully:
I think people were expecting too much from the change in Congress after the elections. Congress can only work so fast, and there are so many different scandals. They can’t clean up in 6 months what the Republicans have taken years to destroy. I have the privilege of knowing people in both chambers and have some idea what their workload is like.
In particular, I think people are reacting viscerally to the Iraq vote which can be debated for its pros and cons [and I do have some insights to share when the temperature goes down a little] but overall people were disgusted with this blown opportunity.
This community did NOT savage each other the way that many progressive blogs did right after that vote. It speaks very highly of the community building that has been done here, and Christy, your strong leadership in this regard has made all the difference.
Folks: Marathon, not sprint. Are we going to say to the next generation, well, we gave it a try after the elections, but gave up after 6 months? DON’T GIVE UP. We are fighting for long run solutions.
This is so true, and something that we all forget from time to time, so it is worth a reminder every once in a while that while we may want a hero to ride in on a white steed and fix all the nation's ills…we aren't going to get one. We have to be our own heroes, that is how things are now and how they always have been. We must be the change we wish to see. (Yes, I know, way too zen this early. Go and get yourself another cuppa coffee and come back. This gets better…)
rwcole and Bustedknuckles had some further thoughts on this that I'd like to share with everyone. First, rwcole:
Sounds as if the core of the problem is posters taking shots at one another. Guess the only thing you can do is to make it clear that it won’t be tolerated and then show that you mean it- which I think you do.
The other thing that can be done- and you do it- is to model appropriate behavior for handling disagreement- respectful exchange of opinion should be valued-. Disagreement should be valued- rudeness not tolerated.
And then Bustedknuckles follows up with this:
RW, It’s kinda like a big family get together sometimes. There is always going to be friction at one point or another. I agree that Redd and Jane and our outstanding mods do a hell of a job keeping the place civil and as a long time poster I will occasionally jump in and try to keep things in line. I don’t know if thats a problem, but I at least try. Other posters also will jump in to calm things down. The problem of not having face to face and voice inflection is often to blame. We have lost a lot of good folks over the years and I would like to see this place flourish as it is a lone spot of sanity in this world.
We are often like a big, loud family from day to day. We worry about Tommy Yum's son Esten, and about Jane's chemo (which is still going well, btw). We ask about Balrog's new baby, and when someone loses someone close to them — including pets — we all take a moment to reflect with them and offer some condolences. And someone, although I cannot remember who at the moment, came up with a great way to remove crayon marks from my eggshell-white walls when The Peanut was younger. (Can't believe I have been blogging for more than a year and a half. Just doesn't seem possible.) It really is as though we have developed these strange little pockets of care and concern and genuine feeling, although most of us know each other by a nickname and a history of comments on a computer screen.
It is funny how that works, but it really does work for us, by and large.
So, I wanted to take a little time this morning to just say thanks to everyone for the effort you put in here at FDL. Your comments make the conversation so much richer. And all the reader e-mails that I get from folks — a lot of whom don't comment, but whose e-mails are amazing — you add so many more levels of thought process to everything I write. Jane and I often talk about the great ideas we get from our readers and say that we have the best group of folks around the blogosphere having an ongoing, evolving conversation here every day. I value that more than I can really say, so thank you.
For all of you out there who read, but don't comment, please take a little time to introduce yourself at some point. This blog is all the richer when we add new voices, new ideas, new thoughts into the mix — because something new can stimulate a whole new spark on a topic that perhaps none of us have even considered. And it may be the very topic about which you are very knowledgeable and incredibly passionate. So please, do share with all of us.
While I am thinking about it, let us all take a moment of gratitude and thank our lucky stars for the lovely moderators who keep the threads tidy and as free of invective as possible for all of the rest of us. They make the reading more enjoyable and SPAM free for all of you, and they keep me sane. You would not believe the dreck…well, actually, you probably would, but I am grateful nonetheless and say a hearty "thank you" to all of them.
All of this to say, we are all in this together. That is as much true of this entire nation of ours as it is about this one little corner of it on FDL. No matter how much nastiness and bickering and mudslinging and whatever else some consultant dreams up for any given race or scandal, the bottom line is that we all have to deal with the big problems — and we have to face them head on, horrible facts and all, together. We don't do that nearly often enough, frankly, because we are all so busy talking past each other most of the time. And no, I am not giving up on my snark any time soon, but there are so many issues upon which a majority of Americans agree these days you would think that we could make some progress on some of them, wouldn't you?
The same goes for the micro-level here at FDL. Any good relationship gets nurtured. We fight, we make up, we move forward. But of all of those, the moving forward is the most important thing — that's what my Granny told me anyway, right before I got married all of fourteen years ago, and she was right. She also told me that anyone can talk an awful lot, but very few people ever really learn to listen — and that the very best friends and spouses learn to listen.
What are your thoughts on all of this? I'm all ears. So pull up a chair…
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Good morning Christy!
Thank you for everything you do to keep our community going.
And congratulations Steve. Way to go.
Great, great song.
“And now my life has changed in oh so many ways…”
Morning Christy.
Sounds like a little preemptive civility strike for the Sestak blog session this afternoon…..
Pure luck..on the road in Boston and the GF got in from an 8 mile run and got me mobilized.
On topic..FDL is the only site where I can stand to read comments, it is the best moderated by far. That said, I seem to agree with 90 % of the opinions, which is troubling. It may be that the dialog is now good vs evil and the good old days of discussing variables of progressive social change are gone.
{{{{{{{{{{Christy!}}}}}}}}}}
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I do appreciate all that you do for us that allows US to maintain our sanity during the craziness. Many of us are stuck in deeply red parts of the nation and often feel like lone voices in the wilderness which is why the ‘Lake is so important.
I think the patience is a key aspect. Having lived through H2Ogate and everything since, these things never happen on a quick schedule. The short period since 01/07 has been wonderful in itself for all the revelations of their ON-GOING crimes, without getting very far into the crimes and idiocies from the non-oversight years.
The Redubyacans and enablers have been insulting us and questioning our patriotism since I was a child. At one time, there were those who would acknowledge that most Americans were (and are) in basic agreement as to WHAT the problems were and only differed on HOW to fix them. Now, not so much as it used to be as we seem to be two different worlds.
Things happen in their own sweet time and with vigilance and patience, we will gain our country back.
Christy – Thanks for the reminder about this cleanup job being a marathon. And thanks to the others here who keep the spirits high in the face of pessimism
Good Morning,
I’d like to add my thanks to our lovely Ladies of the Lake and to the wonderful members of the community for always making me feel welcome. I usually can’t comment through the day, so I try to put in a few words early in the morning [on the Late Nite or Late Late Nite threads].
FDL has challenged me to get involved [I made some campaign contributions, and volunteered in a Congressional race last year], comforted me through difficult times [both Mr. NJP’s parents have serious health issues right now, and it’s been rough], and cheered for me [participating in the big peace march in DC in January].
I exchange emails with a few other Firepups [hey, there MillineryMan and Pam in SC].
And I’m due for another monetary contribution to FDL [I put myself on a regular giving schedule, following the idea that if you value something, you should support it to your ability].
So, as a small thank you to everyone, I’ve made two fresh pitchers of iced coffee [one regular, one decaf], and made a big batch of morning glory muffins. Help yourselves!
I really appreciate all of you.
Work for peace, every day.
Christy! Egregious!
I also think we overestimated the extent of our Nov 2006 victory, not just the pace at which change would unfold. This has been painful for me and many of us in the progressive community. The upside though is I think this is clarifying some of our thinking about how to make progress. We’re starting to make distinctions between not just Dem’s and reThugs but between progressives and corporatists. Simply changing parties without changing the real core agenda is not enough. We do have a long row to hoe and realizing that can make anyone irritable.
(BTW: This really does feel like a community even though I’ve never met any of the other pup’s)
Good morning, all… the coffee is ready!
Civility? I like it.
MarkC at 4 — Well, if it helps with that, great. But it’s really an attempt to get ot the root of what we were talking about yesterday on short fuses and crankiness and the amount of tension in the threads lately. We had a great first pass at it yesterday, and then I had to go and pick up The Peanut from preschool. So I thought we could continue the discussion this morning.
Thank goodness for coffee this morning, btw…
Mark C @ 3
I hope it is civil. I gave a fair amount of money to the Sestak campaign and was not happy when he joined the pro business Dems. I was really pissed with his Iraq vote, however, after reading Howie’s piece yesterday, I am willing to listen. Chris Carney, however….
p.s. to 9 and re: 8.
This is a good time to remember that the wonder of FDL does not come free. Just chipped into the pot. Any other takers?
Just a drive-by post before going out for the day to say thanks. I’ve been reading multiple times a day as usual,but haven’t had the heart to post… I realize now I’ve been rather silent since the Iraq funding bill. I guess I’ve read enough venting to think there’s nothing more I can say ;-) Amazingly enough, I haven’t even begun to comment on the SCOTUS action of late… not a happy camper… but if it results in tightening some legislation, not all bad.
Good morning, Christy and firepups!
musicsleuth at 14 — Good to see you. :) I think everyone has been angered and disappointed about that vote. And several others. I suppose the point I was trying to make above is that we’re much better off if we channel that into some action — but I haven’t come up with something we should do. Have been wracking my brain for something we can all tackle next — with some way to tackle it — but haven’t come up with anything as good as the rubber stamp effort from last year. I’ve trying to come up with something good on habeas, so if anyone has a good idea, please share.
Just a quick pop in to say hello and thanks. While in NZ (and I’m going back in a few weeks for a few weeks), this community gave me my American anchor. I don’t have as much time to read and keep up while here in the US, but it steadies me to know you are out there. Thanks to the mods and to the self-restraint that is exhibited here.
Plus the posts are of uniformly high content and style. Yeah for that!
I was in a seminar the last two weeks, and when I mentioned fdl, I got an excited endorsement from another professor. Another four wrote down the web address. So hi to the newbies.
As much as I come for political news, though, I need and want narrative and character, so I appreciate knowing that egregious goes to Russia for her passion of saving newborn’s lives. And knowing about TRex’s cats and I don’t mind (too much) waiting for him to stop at the grocery store on the way home from work. And looseheadprop’s daughter’s fierce intelligence, and the legion of students that make music under ETeller’s tuteledge (and all of his amazing life). These wise and funny and caring people are not pundits, but far, far better. (oh, and all the recipes and gardening hints and specific ways in which people walk through their days – it is relevant and real. Observations here come through life, and not through the press releases and what one is “supposed” to think, according to the paymasters. It is quite a comfort to see the level of intelligence on this board and a good antidote to the anti-intellectualism of the White House and the Kansas Board of Education.)
lisadawn82 @ 7
Hi- I dont think many people expected a sprint out of Iraq. I guess most were well aware there is a marathon ahead. The frustrations and/or rage that many feel is probably caused by the fact that those responsible (Democrats) did not even start to run! “Well, yeah, it is awful, this Iraq-thing. But we will start doing something about in, aaahh.. September. Or so…”
That seems the problem- just my 2-cents-worth.
I realize this dates me but I don’t care. I took my then girl friend to Candlestick Park in SF to see these guys (Beatles) in 1965 or ‘66, I think it was. Paid $4.50 per ticket. Good, politically vibrant times! Wonderful music.
Morning all!
I’m really at a loss for words after reading Christy’s intro piece. It sums up what this place and all of you mean to me.
OH – how do you get crayon off the walls?
Surely things changed in the comments once the Libby trial started (I know I hadn’t posted before then) so there must have been a huge influx of new people speaking up, and speaking out. Does it seem more crowded now, did you lose some old regulars?
I can’t say enough good about the moderators here at FDL for helping the conversation stay on track. I sometimes forget that other sites don’t practice such vigilance and it’s always a shock to my mind to see a much-needed discussion thrown into disarray by people whose only goal is to keep us from talking to each other or by people who think it’s all about them. Thank you. The tolerance that we must have in order to live together in our nation and the world is being deliberately destroyed by those who do not have our nation/world’s best interests at heart. Recognizing that was important to me and being a participant here, where real discourse is valued, has been one of the things that has helped keep me focused on what we face.
Thank you.
I hit FDL most everyday. I comment if I think what I’ve got to say is relevant to the topic (thank you all for your forbearance)and compared to some other sites, (Huffpo springs to mind) this one is a model of decency and civility. For that I’d like to thank everyone responsible. I think I would have gone insane if it wasn’t for places like this (and Digby, and Carpetbagger).
WRT the glacial pace of change in DC; it is frustrating. From my perspective as a British transplant it’s also infuriating; I lived through the takedown of Thatcher (by her own party!!) which took less than a year, so this is painful for me. I have a hard time being patient with stupidity.
I came here from Digby via a link before the Libby trial started. It was/is amazing. Always read everything. Participate at late nite. Often time difference means I can’t on other issues. This is a great community. I have a real interest in US politics and have heaps of thanks for everyone, posters and commenters.
Lindy @ 22
what Lindy said.
It’s so nice to be able to have an actual conversation about the issues.
THANK YOU MODS and Christy and Jane and everyone.
There are times when folks just need to agree to not agree. And ‘piling on’ doesn’t help. ;0)
Well, there’s no sense me commenting. I live in FL-13 (Katherine Harris country, remember?)and, wed to Sarasota County, poor Manatee County Dems have no representation in the House. Of course, with Bill Nelson in the Senate, we have little representation there either. Ennyhoo, we did not get much by way of any real power with an almost 50-50 split in the Senate, and the Presidential veto power is hard to beat, so I can’t see getting excited over the Iraq vote. I kinda think the congressional Dems see this bit of reality maybe better than we folx out here in the hinterlands. One thing I know, there are no Republican “moderates,” so we can expect no help from that quarter. On the positive side, let the subpoenas fly. This is what we really gained last November.
OKK at 19 — I heard a report on that concert on NPR yesterday in a larger piece on Sgt. Pepper’s 40th anniversary. They were talking about how concert attendees had no idea that this would be the last Beatles live tour — and the switch made by the fab four when they recorded Sgt. Pepper with its layered instrumentals and vocal effects, none of which could have been replicated onstage. It was a fascinating report. So cool to know that you were in that audience. :)
Noonan — There is this cool product called a “Magic Eraser” that is essentially a white foam-ish thing that performs miracles. I found it in the cleaning supplies aisle at teh grocery store and with a tiny bit of water and a little elbow grease, it takes pretty much anything off.
Good Morning Folks!!
Wow, life has been real busy here, and I missed the flame throwing. egregious summed it up very well, and the perspective is spot on.
For me, I have to say as busy as I’ve been lately, I truly miss being able to comment, and hang out here. Instead of reading, thinking and learning, I’m scanning to see what great things are being offered so I know what this community is doing.
NJP-Always a pleasure when I see your name pop into my box. Jacqrat is a great person who I’m getting to know, and RevDeb is going to be a half hour from me when she moves. I look forward to attending some of her services. Something I would’ve never been able to do without FDL.
There’s so much good here, and the discussions can be robust without the unacceptable personal atatcks.
Yes Christy, listening is a lost art. It may sound crazy, but that how I actually learn about who a person really is.
Dear Christy,
Thanks for a thoughtful, wise, and insightful comment. More than that, it adds to the great sense of hope that FDL promulgates for me, and others too, I think. FDL is really a wonderful group of people; and whatever problems occasionally raise their heads only show that we are human. I can’t escape the feeling that we are involved in a new experiment in democracy; made possible by the internet; held together by the efforts of you and Jane and the mods and all the others; and evolving in a direction that we only sense dimly at present. Just watch us go!
Whew! Sounds more like Sunday morning fare than Saturday, I know, but I really mean all that. Can’t stay around now, but I’ll be back soon. Keep on blogging!
Good Morning.
FDL has become my “go to” blog, especially after the outstanding Libby Coverage. with the quality of the analysis and the overall atmosphere of open, professional and – dare I say it – mature discussion, it’s usually the first site I go to in the morning, and i return frequently
I’m not sure if I’ve posted any comments, since by the time I have a chance to read a post (work SO gets in the way) there are usually well over a hundred comments. You’re a talkative bunch.
So a big thanks to Jane, Christy, TRex and all of you. I’ve been in a state of continuous anger for over six years, and y’all give me hope.
I sure know it takes longer to clean up after my kids than it takes for them to make the mess. So some patience is in order.
But it is also frustrating when I seem to understand (thanks to FDL, Next Hurrah and many other news and analysis blogs) more about the problems the Committee members. I want them to be able (or willing to) zero in on the important issues. I want them to be a bit more forceful with the all-important subpoena power, and I want them to ask the right questions.
While it will take time to heal things, the pace and timidity also are reminding me that being the minority party was not the only problem I had with the Democratic Party.
I’m an idealist. For some reason I still expect the people who make their careers ‘public service’ to actually serve the public. My bad.
The bogus “compassionate conservative” mantra got a lot of mileage.
I just can’t come up anything in this country that hasn’t seriously gone off on the wrong track. You name it, from iraq occupation to food safety. Cable news is dysfunctional & major newspapers rapidly disintegrating into garbage.
Everything in this country badly needs quality control. That’s a reality based goal which repubs would object to. I don’t think they value quality & they hate control unless it is in their grubby little fists.
Elliott at 21 — There has been a changeover in commenters since the Libby trial. And we have lost some of the old-timers, some due to work projects that I know have been keeping them buried (hey, EPU!), some because they missed the smaller blog feel once traffic ramped up for the trial — and some for reasons about which I’m not sure. All blogs have turnover, it is a natural thing just like any social group will pull in new friends and lose others over time.
But one of the things we have always had is a very activist sort of readership, who continually proposed actions for others to take up or try — it is one of the reasons that we started working on the Roots Project, because it was a natural flow from the amazing folks in the comments. But that sort of constructive activism has shifted the last few weeks — and I do think that the disgust over the latest series of votes is a big part of that — to a lot of venting, and not so much on the doing. And I’ve been trying to figure out why. That and why there has been a trend toward talking past each other instead of TO each other when there are differing opinions. I truly enjoy the back and forth — and we need different opinions to test our own beliefs against or we simply become an echo chamber. But the tendency to jump on anyone different as “troll” without first sitting back to se if they are one is troubling as it has become more prevalent, and it’s one I’d like to see us pull back on a little bit. The mods are wonderful at picking up on actual trolls — and we ought to trust them at that a bit more than we do in the comments, I think.
Oh yeah. My (just two days ago) 9 year old is a huge Beatles fan, with Beatle haircut, rings like Ringo etc. Help is one of his 3 favorite songs for me to sing him to sleep (along with Octopuses Garden and a few others).
PeteCO @ 23
PeteCO, thanks for mentioning an important point! The difference seems that a prime minister or chancellor in European countries looses his/her job the very momement they loose the majority of votes in parlament. Which is veritable majority rule. Now in the case of the USA the chambers seem to have no power whatsoever. All they can do is hold inquieries that in the end lead to newspaper headlines. Once a US president is installed he rules at will, few checks, no balances in sight.
I do share your impatience.
Elliott @ 21
It was the Libby trial that brought me to the Lake where I lurked for a bit before starting to speak out. I have a good memory so I think I started with some historical perspective one time. But I also know that I can be irritating and arrogant in my opionions sometimes so I try to temper that.
I had posted at HuffPo and a couple of other places before I got here but now it’s mainly at the Lake.
When I see comments that I found troubling, I go into a select “ignore” mode. I first check the commenter to see if I recognize the name. If I do, then I may say something but if I don’t, I keep quiet as I recognize that there are many long time commenters who were here long before I was. After a while, I believe we tend to recognize the tone and style of posters and how far we can go in tweaking them for comments. Also whether we need to include a “snark” or “sarcasm” tag as well as a smiley face. Since some of my attempts at “humor” go VERY flat (kersplat), I have to be especially aware.
Of course, being the youngest in my family, the youngest of a generation on my father’s side of the family, having attended a military HS and for a lot of other reasons, I learned LONG ago not to EVER take things personally as it’s a losing proposition. Which is a kinda roundabout way of saying do not ever hesitate to tell me to STFU is I’m being a bit more of an a** than usual. I also recognise few people have that sameperspective so YMMV… ;})
AlabamaYankee at 32 — Welcome to the comments. :) And what is the news from the USAs in Alabama and the Rove connection to prosecution of a certain very high profile Dem. in the last election cycle? Read a bit about that in the news and am wondering if y’all are hearing more about it in the local papers?
LOL
Christy, when you were talking to Noonan about the “magic eraser”, I at first thought you were referring to Peggy Noonan’s latest opinion thingie. Republicans use that mental magic eraser all the time.
I’ve been up to my elbows in plantings and designing new gardens for the last month. My time at the Lake has been briefer than I care for. I count on this community for sanity, truth, support, new movies and books to read, recipes to try, even new exercise ideas (still dreaming about that sleek, portable rowing machine that can be stored upright in a small apartment), and the humor and compassion shared is terrific.
PS I sent a check about 6 weeks ago for Pach’s idea. It hasn’t been cashed. Don’t know what’s up with that. I do like to contribute ideas, money, tips, etc. to keep this great community humming.
Thanks for all that you do ladies and mods.
The lesson of the Iraq Supplemental debacle has nothing to do with marathon or sprint. One can run a marathon and still lose. The lesson is one we’ve had over and over: the system is broke; dems and repubs feed out of the same trough given the chance; we need to change the system in a big way.
ironranger @ 40
Great analogy.
CHS @ 35;
IMHO, I think we’ll see more focus after the primaries. We don’t know who we’ll be dealing with, or working for (and against). There’s a lot of uncertainty right now.
A couple people have had problems in that regard. My personal theory is that those crazed poodles chewed up some of the contributions. Separation anxiety when their ‘big dog’ was away from home.
Hi
Yes I’m angry about the vote and I’m for impeachment but the bad people are deep in the gov. and it will take along time to get back are rights. If we stop and listen to others I’m sure it can be done but it has to include every one even if we don’t totally agree. If every one becomes angry to the point there just shouting nothing ever gets done and part of the problem and not the solution. To date myself at 58 I might not live long enough to see this when it get done that how long it’s going to take.
From the left coast
jo6pac
Keep up the great work you do here & the check in the mail.
Morning everybody. I usually don’t have time to read through the threads until late at night (when my typing would make my spousal unit just a wee bit annoyed.) And by the time I get to read, any contribution would be pretty much EPU’d. (I almost got a zed once.) The last couple of weeks, I’ve been inundated with work (I run a start-up medical diagnostic device company) and have had even less time than usual and gotten to the lake even later. I didn’t know anything about yesterday’s kerfuffle (prison rape, EvilDoctorPuma taking his marbles home, etc.) until way after the fact. I had not noticed the high level of tension Christy talked about until I read that thread. But, in retrospect, I can identify with a high political stress level. The fall elections and the months leading up to them were the first rays of hope in a chillingly tense time–Gitmo, Abu Graib, war deaths and maimings by the thousands, war profiteering, unpunished screw-up by unpunished crime, a second stolen election. I had gotten used to seeing the blogger/troll paintball matches on HuffPo and was totally disillusioned when I discovered the Lake because of a request somewhere for contributions to Marcie’s trip to DC to cover the Libby trial. Been (mostly) lurking here ever since. And my mood has been ever so much better since then. Until the apparent cave-in vote on the war supplemental. My nerves are once again jangleable. I don’t know if my case is different (I suspect not) but I know the lake is still so far superior as a place to exchange ideas that to see people leave over what might have been insulting but was probably a generic snark would be really disappointing. As Egregious (mentioned by name by Captain Jack Sparrow, no less!) says, we’re in “a marathon, not a sprint.” Please everybody, stick around. Don’t be put-off from speaking your mind, but try just a little harder to temper criticisms of other firepups until we get some really good news–like airplanes flying from DC to the Hague with household names aboard.
It’s tragic that the most appropriate reaction to the predations of Bush Republicans is sheer volcanic rage. Whether it’s the assault on reason, the catastrophe of our imperialist invasion, the incompetence and the kleptocracy, or the assault on our Constitution, we have so much to be angry about that it just boils over at times.
It’s good to have this cool, calm oasis where reason triumphs and we can quell the rage enough to return to the longer view.
ironranger @ 40
I get that all the time. BUT, it helps me stay a bit incognito when people are doing opposition research about me. Noonan is an old college nickname, people actually didn’t know my real name when I (finally) graduated, so I kept it for my online personna and email address.
As far as mental magic eraser, I think W may have sniffed too much of it along with anything else he may have done.
Thank you so much to all of the hosts at the Lake who make surfing here and diving in such a pleasure. The Lake is a wonderful community and amazingly supportive. Thank you.
As for our congressional leaders …. saw an add at the doctor’s office yesterday about a spinal surgery involving the harding of the spine while maintaining some of the flexibility. I am happy to recommend my radiologist to any senator in need of some medical help.
Good morning and thanks for the muffins and coffee. I brought a fruit salad.
Christy -
Like coffee, never too early for a cuppa zen. ;-) I read comments at a few of the other sites but FDL is the only place I feel “at home”. Well, have plopped down at ew’s place a few times recently…..that so I can get more of her indepth voice and b/c there’s the same sense of “family” to be found there.
I’ve gotta go check the crab pots and put in some fresh bait but if raven shows up, would someone please refer him/?/her to this note:
raven -
Thanks so much for the encouragement to go see the tall ship yesterday. It left harbor about 10:00 a.m. with five sails set and simply took my breath away. Musical accompaniment: Pomp and Circumstance. *g* Worth every cent in gas money and second in travel time!
retirin’ at 65 — I think part of it was Jane’s move from west coast to east coast — there were some problems with the mail forwarding for a little bit. She’s been looking into it, though, and hopefully we’ve gotten it straightened out. She’s had a lot on her plate though — but if someone is having an issue with a check, e-mailing Jane might be helpful, for both you and her. We’ve had a lot of change since December and a whirlwind trial coverage period — no excuse for a lapse, but a direct e-mail reminder can be a helpful when you are swamped. At least it works that way for me, anyway. ;-)
Aeolus @ 48
Volcanic rage is right. MrsCO prefers it if I don’t watch the evening news; my yelling upsets the cats.
“They can’t clean up in 6 months what the Republicans have taken years to destroy…”
Especially with the Lungrens and Cannons sitting in front of us, defying the laws of democracy and enabling the lie.
Our (the blogs) frustration with Democratic Party acquiescence represents why I believe it is time for a more direct form of democracy, “democracy on demand” and not stifled by election season limitations.
Public referendum is more than a good idea, it is an idea whose time has come.
Joan Finney, Kansas’ other historically notable woman governor, refused to run for a guaranteed second term because she was way out front on the “What’s the matter with Kansas” issue, and she wanted a public referendum system installed, to prove how far away our state lawmakers (Republicans in particular) were from the mandate of their constituents.
The Republican controlled legislature moved heaven, earth and Kansas to scuttle her populiust plans, so Finney refused to run again, giving up what was a sure re-election.
It is time to find some way to utilize this wonderful invention, the internet, to make the public’s will more available to our lawmakers. We blog about it, we write long letters, we vote in polls and discuss issues here already.
Maybe it is time to look for ways to focus this medium on developing a system of public-referendum politics. If the will of the public is expressed in a quantitave way, that can be used effectively as a reference, we can hold our lawmakers accountable to the popular will, the democratic solution, the American way we all imagine, but can’t seem to realize.
The future of politics itself may rest in our countless keyboards, all those that have helped to make the internet the unintended tool of accelerated political evolution.
Who needs (R)evolution when you have evolution?
Isn’t that what Democracy is all about?
I too am glad that I missed all the food fights. I might be one of the older pups, hanging out before Cheney decided to shoot his friend after too many years over at kos.
Since the Iraq vote, hearing from the AZ activists, callers on our local Nova M radio and the blogs, surprised how fast people were going to abandon the ship. The Repugs systematically built their little empire over 30 years.
Gee in the 4 years I have been working my butt off here, I see significant changes. We have one of our DFA members as Chair of the county party, 4 of the state Democratic Party officers under the Chair are members of the progressive caucus. The chair of my District party is a previous DFA officer.
We have two brand new shiny Democratic congresspersons. Ya they are not perfect but they are a long shot better than OLD JD Hayworth any day!
We are building a foundation to a building, that takes time and planning. Ya just cant go to the ready made store and drop it from the sky, it doesn’t work that way. Especially when there are so many factors working against us.
It is step by step and brick by brick.
Thanks Redd, but I like my poodle theory better ;-)
And one more wonderful human being I’ve gotten to know because of FDL is Valley Girl.
There’s so much good that comes out of here. Channel the anger and passion into positive action to change the direction of the country.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 35
I think this is a great blog but I don’t post as much as I’d like to or used to.
Part of that is simply RL getting in the way but also I think it is a reflection on the success of this site. The comments pile up so fast that it’s tough to say anything sometimes in a timely fashion.
I find I will make a point of reading the main page of FDL and try not to miss any postings but I can’t always find the time to dive into the comments, especially when there are already 150 comments posted.
Perhaps I should update my thinking, but for me I always feel that by that point I’ll just be EPU’d.
Millineryman @ 57
Amen!
Ronzoni Rigatoni @ 27
As you probably know the statisticians and pollsters say that the ‘06 election would have been a huge, huge landslide — perhaps those critical veto-proof margins — were it not for behind the scenes, inside the machine, election “manipulation.”
Sarasotans have more reason than most to be dejected but at least you have gotten some, athough shockingly little, national attention.
Good luck to you. We all need a keep your spirits up day. The voting mechanics issue and election transparency are critical. How are we to hold the Dems and the press accountable on reporting and following through on this?
FDL even with recent tension, is still the most civilized blog around. Its the reason I spend so much time here.
Personally, while disappointed in the Dems on the Iraq vote, I would rather see our energy focused on Fred Thompson. If I don’t miss my guess, he is going to be the Repub nominee.
All the repubs I know are looking at him as their savior because they don’t really like the others in the field. Perhaps I’m all wet, but IMHO, our competition to taking back the whitehouse. We need to look for ways to take him out of the running NOW.
Maybe he will make a shopping trip to Iraq. (grin)
It’s sorta on topic:
Is anyone here involved w/Progressive Democrates of America? Heard something about them on Air America recently but haven’t had a chance to research on-line. Will check back for responses in a bit. Appreciate any feedback!
Thanks for this post, Christy. I used to be able to read all the posts and all the comments each day, but FDL has grown so large in comparison to the “old days” that I can not longer keep up and simply have to choose a post or two to read. If I get to the comments, and there are already 250, I can only scan them.
Anyway, my daily paper, the Richmond Times-Dispatch, keeps the lies going on the OP Ed pages, the unsigned major pieces. Today, “they” maintain that Plame was not covert. In light of Fitz’s summary for the sentencing phase, in which he “asserts” that Plame was covert: “Maybe one day Oliver Stone will make a movie that answers that question.” Their reasons for maintaining the fantasy are that Fitz “decided there were no grounds to prosecute anyboyd under the IIPA, as Late’s Timothy Noah explained. Even Plame herself apparaently was unsure of her own status: As the AP reported about her congressional testimony, ‘Plame said she wasn’t a lawyer and didn’t know what her legal status was.”
That’s the kind of crap in our OP Ed pages. So maddening.
Also, did you already see this link in Josh’s post today:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18…../newsweek/
Congress wants to talk to Ashcroft about the bedside attempted coup.
Aeolus @ 48
I think Aeolus sums it up well. I just finished co-teaching a course on ancient Epic, and thinking about the protagonists in epics (which are, after all, about the longer term rather than the short term–even if the actual time span covered is quite short as in the Iliad). It is difficult to react to anything Bushco does or
manages to do despite our efforts with anything other than the type of blind Furor which drives mythological heroes at times. If only it were as easy as running the enemy through with a single sword as Aeneas does to Turnus. At the same time, we have to avoid withdrawing from the action out of anger and disgust like Achilles.
Unfortunately, I thing we are stuck back in the non-epic world of Herakles. Bushco is a vast hydra for which we have not yet found a good measure to either cut off the heads or cauterize them once they are off. Hopefully, we can keep at this with the strength of weary Herakles until we find a working solution.
Sorry for the excessive mythological references, I’m tired and I just kept thinking about past solutions for present problems.
Good morning Christy and everyone. I learned the hard way right after Dean’s Iowa experience to hold off on ‘venting’ when my anger is white hot. But the community that has been created here is quite unique. Thanks everyone.
And my tickets have been bought for Chicago. Hooray. Someone (Rayne?) offered for GrandmaJo and I to share a room with her and Sharon(?), but Jo and I have figured we can make it. But the offer itself (in light of my current money worries) was generous and typical of FDLers. Thanks very much for the offer.
Jo and I cannot wait to meet some of you in Chicago. And truly hope we have an FDL breakfast like there was last year.
My oldest son’s kids are in town and we are going to have a great day. All of you have a good one too.
OT Charlie Savage and the Boston Globe pick up on the Preznit’s Disaster Planning for continuity purposes. I think that’s why he’s a Pulitzer winner…
I agree with the basic premise here that we our slim ‘o6 victory can’t deliver much.
However, pulling the other side out into the light of day has been like turning on a light in what you thought was a somewhat dirty kitchen and finding swarms of cockroaches. Monica Goodling’s testimony, Libby’s statement on sentencing, Thompson’s speeches on Libby’s innocence, Gonzo’s midnight raid on Ashcroft, total insensitivity to the Black community, little if help to NO since Katrina, the Supreme Court’s decisions since the two Bush-nuts were seated, and…the drum beat on NPR every morning as I shake off sleep of death reports from Iraq…
This week you spotlighted JFK’s inaugural address and the stark contrast with our president’s personal inability to lead, speak or make logical sense overwhelmed me. (Did you catch him on the Daily Show? Did you close your eyes and try to see JFK?)
My sister says I should just grow up, ignore “politics” and enjoy my wealth and grandchildren…”light up, tune out.” Sounds attractive sometimes.
But I can’t tune out. And, like the ladies argued in the blog after Hillary on equal pay, DON’T TELL ME TO BE PATIENT!!
If anything we have been too civil. Nixon and Johnson had riots in the streets. College campuses were closed down. Ladies and gentlemen, what we are seeing today from the Bush government makes Nixon look like a shoplifter. And we do nothing and all agree that it is best to wait.
BS!!
I don’t comment often but I read the front page every day. I don’t read every thread but when I do read the threads here, I’ve always been struck by the high level of knowledge and insight the regulars bring to the table. If I need further information about any post topic, I know I’ll find it in the threads. Good informative threads have become a rare thing in the blogosphere and I treasure the community here for it.
I don’t know everything that has been causing trouble here, but I’ve seen too many blogs descend into armed camps throwing bombs at each other and I would feel such a loss to see that happen to FDL. So I’d like to remind everyone that blogging is performance art – a thing of the moment, and it is easy to make a comment that could be misinterpreted by others or strikes a sensitive nerve in someone else. It is in fact impossible not to occasionally step on someones feelings. So I would ask of everyone here to keep in mind that we are all people of good will and common goals, and to remember this first when a comment by someone else hits a nerve. The only way to keep FDL the vibrant and important community it has become is to treat each other with respect, kindness and a forgiving attitude.
I came to the Lake as a grizzled veteran of the flame wars of less civil blogs. I brought some bad habits with me and was promptly and properly put in the penalty box for 30 days.
I think the live blogging of the Libby trial brought a lot of new people here. Like me, it may take some of them time to lose their bad habits and learn to appreciate the benefits of civil discourse.
Not only is this a wonderful place to hang out, with great comments and insightful diaries, but it is also the very best structured site on the net. The very best. Congrats to all the hosts and the mods. You have created a true community feeling on this site and I feel lucky to have found you.
Still perhaps the most civilized comment threads in the blogosphere, that I’m aware of anyway. Which isn’t to say there may not be problems and troublesome trends, but what you folks have is impressive, and it’s worth fighting to keep. It’s also what makes posting at FDL such a pleasure.
Christy, Thank you so much for the video. It got my Saturday morning off to a terrific start! So simple, yet so brilliant. And I love their looks–part enticing, part–gee, how did this happen? Did you know that Paul McCartney did the melody to “Yesterday” before the lyric? It started out at “Scrambled Eggs”!
I have to agree with Steve @ 5 that the occupation issue has taken the fore at the expense of other equally pressing progressive issues. I’m still waiting for Samm Simpson to decide whether or not she’s going to run against Young again. During that time I’ve had to take a good hard look at what the Democrats are for in the long term and whether I really want to get that deeply involved in another Congressional race. While hoping that the Dems would once again be in control of Congress, I was under no illusions that the occupation was going to come to a screeching halt any time soon. For myself, I have to think we’re there until we, at the least, get a veto-proof majority in both houses. That doesn’t mean I’ll stop protesting and badgering my congress critters but there are more than enough other issues that need to be dealt with that I can’t allow myself to become a one trick pony by focusing solely on the disaster that is Iraq. As an example, how do we not only stop the drain of jobs to China but bring manufacturing back into the country? 157,000 new jobs sounds good but the breakdown once again shows those jobs are either low wage or primarily in the financial services sector. We’ve got more people processing money than we do making the useless stuff people buy to pump up their ego.
One thing I learned protesting is that those who attack the messenger rarely have a grasp on the subject at hand. The attacker’s whole schtick is someone disagrees with him/her so that person must be attacked. A discussion of the subject matter is out of the question. Your basic Hannity shout over. With a little patience I can occasionally bring them around to discussion, which is when I find they know little of what they speak. Just a touch of enlightenment is enough to scare them off. Which is too bad because they haven’t stayed long enough to maybe learn something.
Now it’s time for some organic fair trade coffee made Arabian style. Starbucks could never make coffee this good.
Christy, Jane and all the other Firepups, thanks for bein’ here.
Never give up.
Waccamaw @ 63
I am a member of DFA (Democracy for America) and PDA. I started with PDA but moved over to DFA for one big reason. Here in AZ, PDA is pretty much a single issue group. They are about stopping the war and impeaching Bush/Cheney period. AND using any method. Little story, that idiot with the pink outfit at Valerie Wilson’s hearing was one of the local PDA/Code Pink members.
DFA is about building a progressive network, recruiting and electing candidates usually the lower level ones which most people ignore. DFA is about growing the farm team. Have to confess that I am the Chair of my country DFA group. We had two great sucesses, city counsel woman and the Constable of my city won.
In many areas of the country you will find that DFA & PDA have joined forces. San Diego is one, most of the NJ groups are combined. I suggest you attend meetings of both, you can find them online.
http://www.democracyforamerica.com/
http://www.dfalink.com/
http://pdamerica.org/index.php
Perhaps another hydra head has been removed:
Jerry Lewis to Retire? novak
Thanks for your words, Christy. Sometimes it can be intimidating to comment here, and it may have kept constructive posters away. We’re all upset at the state of the union right now, but we have to pressure the individuals with the power to change their ways. Or run for office ourselves.
egregious is correct: it’s a marathon, not a sprint. I would hope that Presidential candidates on the Democratic/Liberal/Moderate sides can come here and have a shot in person to say who they are, what they stand for and why. With all the opp research and smears being thrown around, we need more outlets like this blog to get first hand thoughts and comment on them. Blogs have changed the political dialogue for the better, but facts are our best source of opinion. I’m so sick of the talking points era that has eroded the health of national discourse. Thanks Firedoglake for helping cure this problem.
I do think that one of the things that blogs in general, and this one in particular, are very good at is holding the feet of the bobblehead media to the fire. The longer our great national nightmare goes on, the more it’s apparent that they are the ones enabling it. Calling out the MSM is job one, I’d say.
A poster on Digby, on the subject of Gore doing the media rounds to plug his new book put it beautifully; “If only he’d turn to the camera and say “This is what I’m talking about”"
Progressive Democrats of America
http://pdamerica.org/index.php
About the anger and frustration – it’s not just impatience, though that’s part of it. It’s that Bush’s reaction has just be to step up the spoiled brat bullying, the arrogant “it’s my party and I’ll do what I want to”. Somebody needs a good old fashioned spanking, (you know, like I never actually managed to deliver to my kids, even when they were acting like spoiled brats).
It also doesn’t help that with few exceptions (go Keith! welcome home Moyers!, keep it up Amy!), the media is just as hieny-licking as ever. They’ve got meteorologists on staff and can’t tell which way the wind is blowing??
(deep breath, deep breath…)
And, for what it’s worth….while I come here for knowledge, I love the humor. Some of you are ‘off the chart’ funny. Which, by the way, has caused me some uncomfortable moments at work.
#@$&%!, I’m going to miss the Nooner. I do have a point and a question for Joe, if someone would be kind enough to pass it along.
The point: This is NOT America’s war, it is CORPORATE America’s war, led by King Georgie, Jr.
The question: What percentage of this money is for the troops, and how much will go to Georgie’s illegal crap and the Mercenaries from Blackwater, etc.
Thank all y’all, for all you do, my third job’s for you.
Christy,
Thanks for trying to get some of us lurkers out from under the rocks. I’ve participated in sending rubber stamps, mailing books, calling congresscritters, donations and am a frequent reader of FDL on a daily basis.
The commentary provided at this site is so valuable and knowledgable. FDL gives me strength to continue my intense desire and obligation as a citizen, to return the USA back to the respectable country we once enjoyed. I’m still speechless about the practices that my country has shamelessly condoned: torture, illegal raids, rampant spying, politicalization, rendition and a premptive war that has destroyed the civilian populations of Iraq and the military lives of US soldiers and families for generations.
I don’t have too much time to write comments as our family has been through some incredible challenges these past few years. I’m an adoptive parent of two children with significant special needs. Your article last week, just brought tears to my eyes as I read about the incredible moment when you saw a past client that had been through the family courts. You had witnessed the parent/child in a moment of sharing love in their newly adopted family.
If you are in Chicago, please let’s touch base. I do some volunteer work with a great organization that provides incredible support to families and children with special needs that stem from prenatal fetal alcohol and drug abuse. It would give you a great sense of peace, knowing some of the health, emotional and physical obtstacles that we’ve helped the children overcome by working as a strong community.
The world is vast with sometimes overwhelming problems. The best place to start making the world a better place is right in your own backyard, the local community.
Warmest regards,
Just because someone is not sitting in the room with you, doesn’t make personally insulting them right because you’re connected virtually.
Good morning and great post!
This is as good a time as any to say that Esten is thriving. We are days away from completing an intensive (and exhaustive) treatment phase. He will then be chemo-free until the 19th, when we will begin long-term maintenance. He kicked the leukemia in November, and I know it’s not coming back.
The support I’ve gotten from this community changed me. It’s humbling and inspirational, and completely changed my mind about the nature of online community. I came here because I found great writers who engaged me, but I stayed because of the smart, loving “regulars.” I am living proof of what is possible through thoughtful, compassionate conversation and commitment.
You guys are my friends. I love you, and I thank you.
FDL is the one site where I always move from the posting to the comments, and while I’m usually just reading (lurking?), it’s often because I spend so much time reading the insightful comments that I want to read more, until I realize I’m out of time.
The marathon analogy is appropriate, but remember that the 26.2 miles to the finish is the culmination of much training, effort and preparation. And those truly dedicated marathoners no sooner finish one than they go back in training to prepare for the next. What always impressed me with pretty much all marathoners was that for those who dedicate, they run several (or more) a year, have individual goals, yet NEVER expect to come in in the top group, much yet first. It’s a series of continuing efforts with personal goals that are accomplished in a large group after much personal and small group preparation, effort, pain and set backs. Few are truly gifted, and even fewer who are the “elite” stay elite for long.
It’s so easy to destroy things (haven’t we lived through that so much these past years) but it NEVER is quick or easy to build up anything, especially something that is good and lasting. I recently had a conversation with the president of the institution where I work, and as we were reviewing the many challenges we have, not least of which is a budget deficit we need to close, he stopped to remind himself and me that we really need to remember the accomplishments we had made, that we were building the foundation for long term success, and if we looked we’d see that the direction was positive – but it will take much more hard work and time.
We’re in this for the long haul, not just for us but for those yet to come. Thanks FDL folks. This is an amazing community.
hychka @ 67
Christy,
I posted thoughts like these at the bottom of yesterday’s post. We took it to the streets. We got out there and made noise.
I wonder if our rage is linked to our age. Are we too old to get out there and do what we learned it takes to get the attention of the administration and the news?
I know this because I lived it. People were traumatized by what was happening, then got angry, and then hit the streets.
I think the cognitive dissonance is this: they stole elections. We are trying to reform things with elections. They’re still in power.
Crank up the Doobie Brothers: Takin it to the Streets.
(((((tommy and Esten!!!)))))
So glad to hear Esten is doing well.
Here’s some actual live footage of the Beatles, from the impromptu roof concert they gave during the Let it Be sessions. The clip includes commentary from baffled Londoners, as well as keyboards by the late Billy Preston:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=TcuvjYxYJz0
That’s two dubbed videos in a row, Christy. Let’s get it together over there at FDL central, okay? ;)
Waccamaw @ 62
Not active but I am on their mailing list & have been to some of their events. Very good on positions. A good umbrella and supporter for local events and very well organized for networking and advertising.
Doh! I gues thing only takes Youtube embeds on the preview. Here’s the link:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=TcuvjYxYJz0
Good morning everyone. I’ve recently learned how to get CSPAN-2 online. Being a book person, I’m delighted that they are covering the Book Expo today.
Sometime in their two or three hour segment starting at noon, Valerie Plame Wilson, Paul Krugman, and Alan Alda will speak. FDL heaven, yes?
Thanks to FDL for helping so many of us stay reasonably calm and sane.
Millineryman @ 83
Did you see this in today’s WaPoo? Virtual crimes may be prosecuted in reality…
JML @ 89
O’oh I might havce been confusing PDA & DFA, time for a break. Have a lovely summer Saturday everyone.
Boston — “I ain’t blind and I don’t like what I think I see.”
tommy yum @ 84
Tommy that’s great news. Modern medicine CAN be miraculous (speaking as someone who was born within five years of the finding of effective treatment for a serious disease I had at age seven – if I had been born ten years earlier, I probably would not have made it to age ten)…
jdkahler at 85 — That is such a great fleshing out of what egregious said above — thanks for that. It is exactly what I was tryin to get at this morning. It isn’t the finish line that is important, but rather the constant participation in the race and the goal of improving things — sometimes in great leaps, sometimes by inches, but always working on moving things forward.
I once heard someone describe conservatism as the honest appraisal of how things are and how we can deal with life as it is. I would counter that liberalism is the appraisal of life as it is, and the response of how things could be better — and then doing the work toward making them better, whatever it takes. And I like to think that is what we are trying to do here, bit by bit, every day.
As for being a disgruntled democrat….all of a sudden, I’m feeling more hopeful. We’ve had some good news lately. My biggest concern (after Iraq) has been that the repubs might steal another election. I see progress there. I think they’re ready to nail Griffin. I think that there are things going on behind the scenes that are working towards restoring the integrity of elections. And if that is achieved, the Dems are in.
Katymine, I noticed you gave a much more comprehensive link in your PDA post for Waccamaw than I did, and that was about as efficient an overview as I’ve read anywhere about these divisions on the left.
And that’s how these blogs work; now I know a lot more about something I have observed and wondered at but couldn’t quite figure out, and in a couple paragraphs you have defined it succinctly.
Which all brings to fore the fact that, anywhere to the left of center, we are divided a million ways, as many ways are there are free-thinkers.
Where we diverge along the branches of the political tree defines the subtleties of our assorted personalities.
Too many of us expect everyone else to agree with us, about everything, and that is where intolerance starts to break down the unity that does exist. And that is what we have seen lately in these “food fights”, people who agree on most issues, but are so consumed by a “special issue” that our division overwhelms our unity, and the tangled mess gets emotionally charged.
And it was also the end of the month, when so many dependants have used-up their prescription mood managers, and have to go a couple days without.. then the tirades really get vile.
There’s a pattern here, timing is everything…
Christy Hardin Smith @ 97
Kinda like the old RFK quote? “Some see things as they are and ask why? I see things as they never were and ask Why Not?”
retirin’ in five @ 95
You got it.
retirin’ in five @ 95
You can be active with the activists, or sleeping with the sleepers,
While you’re waiting for the Great Leap Forward.
Billy Bragg.
Will Judge Walton:
Reward Loyalty to the President or Punish Obstruction of Justice?
Firepups wanna know! I’ve just made my sixth consecutive monthly contribution of $25.07 to support FireDogLake’s history-making Live-blogging, insightful articles and the best commentarial analysis in the Blogosphere – and it feels great!
Please join Jane and Marcy for Libby Sentencing Live-blogging from Judge Walton’s DC Courtroom on Tuesday!
And Please Donate Today!
My definition of the current brand of conservatism is that they believe in Zero sum game. That if the poor get more then the Rich HAVE to get less.
Liberals believe that there is always more for everyone AND that those with a lot more should feel obligated to help those that don’t by providing their fair share. That the rungs on the ladders of life to pull yourself up should be small and a hand out there to help you if you need it.
Kant VS Metternich;
…a political smackdown for the ages
Here’s a great song when life becomes too intense and you’re over-caffeinated. Turn it up Loud and dance with the Eagles to Get Over It.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0tE8bwm0k0U
Morning, FDL :)
Speaking for myself, I haven’t had a fight with anyone here in like, months!
P.S. Since Admiral Sestak will be here today to answer questions about the funding vote, here’s something Robert Farley wrote.
somehow I feel like I was just told that when you get older you will understand. What are these Cheneyesque secrets that will be disclosed when the temperature goes down?
somehow, we have to keep in mind we are dealing with politicians. Some are very interested in supporting progress and the constitution but some are less so …. After the democratic majority is in place for a while who is to say there will not be similar “cockroaches” running around the kitchen? I realize things take time but we should all keep in mind our boys are dying in Iraq and the people there are paying a dear price too. I was hoping more in Congress would have thought the day of reckoning had come ….. the majority means something right?
Bill—
I wasn’t referring to anything secret, just my observations. They needed to wait until people were finished with the necessary venting and blind anger. Been there myself.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 39
Christy,
Not a peep, as far as I can tell. We’re more concerned about the drought (not a drop of rain here since early April, and none in sight)and a do-nothing Legislature which is more concerned about spreading the pork and keeping the gravy train rolling.
There was a lot of comment during the whole indictment to trial and conviction process that the charges were excessive, and the proposed sentence of 30 years certainly is. But politics is hardball here, and Siegelman had baggage that could be – and was – exploited to get him out of the way. It will be interesting to see if it even gets mentioned in the mjor papers, let alone affect the Riley administration.
Greetings, all. I’ve been reading FDL every day for…hmmm…over 2 years now? How time flies. I generally don’t comment often because I’m always late to the best conversations and someone else always beats me to whatever point I want to make.
This is a wonderful, vibrant, diverse community. You all should feel proud of everything you have accomplished and the influence you wield.
My point my that last, trite historical reference is that we have reached an era of pure symbolism, when Conservatism once again represents exactly what it was invented to represent, and Liberalism once again represents what it’s original roots were formed for.
We are in an age of definition, and with the addition of the southern hypocrites in recent decades, Republicans now represent a rich-and-white-man-ruled Republic, while Democrats represent the popular and multi-ethnic, multi-gender rule of Democracy.
What goes around comes around, and every now and then it stands still in a moment of time, like the one we are in now, and all the symbolism lines up with its proper images.
Which is why they (the conservatives) are forced use doublespeak to hide their real intentions, both in the labels they put on legislation and in the way they describe their subterfuge.
If their labels were true to their intentions, the public would never support them.
Come Back to the Five & Dime EvilDrPuma!!
dakine01 @ 92
Thanks dakine01, no I didn’t. It will be interesting to see how this turns out.
Good post. I tend to be very impatient and
putting up with the arrogant Bush for seven years has been a chore…
I get to vent at the Lake.
OT, The Red Sox have put together a video
on the 40th anniversary of the Impossible
Dream coupled with the 40th anniversary of Sgt Pepper and it’s great music with baseball clips… Saw it on NESN a few days ago but I don’t have a linky…
Among the more ambitous progressive news sites, Next Hurrah’s and TPM’s are first rate. Comments are courteous, sharp and informed, which put them well ahead of say, ThinkProgress’. Comments there are sometimes poorly framed or uninformed and often trolled out. That’s sad, because the latter offers a consistently good anthology of the day’s news.
But I don’t think any blog – articles or comments – comes close to the informed, respectful, articulate and even friendly comments on this site. Period.
AlabamaYankee @ 109
I saw this over at TPM, with regards to Don Siegleman. What really strikes me is the 30 years they want, versus 3 for Libby.
JEP @ 112
This is all you need to know about modern conservatism;
http://www.commondreams.org/he…..027-06.jpg
Hey AZ Matt, did you hear that Old JD Hayworth is coming up in the world?
He is a radio talk show host on KFYI 4-7 weekdays – wow he got the Phoenix drive time slot!
I was betting on WWF Raw so that he could show off his new body that we all paid for with his gastric bypass.
dilireous at 110 — Once you’ve dipped your toe in the comment water, there is no going back. *g* Glad you did.
katymine at 118 — And what a mercy it is that there will not be photos of J.D. Hayworth in a lycra-laden wrestling singlet spread around hither and yon… Blergh, I think I may have just made myself sick.
Good morning. I’ve been reading FDL for months, as do most of my co-workers. We have one work computer dedicated solely to blogs (it’s surrounded by little political bobblehead dolls lest anyone forget the PC’s mission). I’ve noticed a lot of the FDL “regulars” are now regularly over at gabbly.com for a few hours almost every day (Hey, EPU). That, in part, has changed (from both cause and effect perspectives) the dynamic at the mothership.
The tone here has changed. You get the sense that some people are auditioning now, that the stakes have been raised (not politically, but vocationally). And that self-consciousness is always counter-productive to the common good, to the degree that the common good in the main goal. There’s also a thin line, not only between love and hate but, between snark and hate – and snark, which is viral, can easily deteriorate into something very negative very quickly.
I was one of the people who was not thrilled in November because it was clear back then that the “victory” was not what it appeared to be – and I was called a troll here for that opinion. I’m not happy that reality has confirmed my premonitions, but it appears group think on any blog (and that’s one of the negative qualities of a ‘community’) causes people to not be open to other views (and other views are often true and very, very useful to understand).
Last week at Amherst, Fitzgerald talked about social discourse and civility. His comments were interesting because he was a guest on another blog (a subscription site hosted by a group of U of Chicago people) I visit where the ground rules are exactly what he suggested during his Amherst talk: you present your side, you present the opposition side, you compare the strengths and weaknesses of both, and you draw a conclusion. The circular logic of so many other sites is called out quickly there. It may sound dry, and it often is as fun as an academic journal article, but the discussions are rich and never cruel and I’ve learned so much from civil conversations with people who hold sometimes very different views from mine. And the occasional “snark” there is rooted in self-deprecation, which is probably why Fitzgerald and other funny, thoughtful public figures are so comfortable visiting.
I may be wrong but I don’t think their moderators have to worry about name-calling (e.g. no tinhat, et al. references) from either side of the aisle because it wouldn’t occur to their posters to sink to that level. I certainly understand the frustration of people who hurl such terms (or use them as shorthand) but, ultimately, it sets a bad tone.
So I appreciate the opportunity to have been a visitor here. But, as in life, and this is a good thing, water seeks its own level. A good day to all.
I disagree. only because chamberlain taught us well about appeasement. this time, we have to stop the totalitarian regime that has taken over our country.
the idea that we should be patient is absurd. You are allowing the same people that told us one thing, to do another. you enable them by lowering their standards. bullshit. time to start trials and then the subsequent executions for ignoring the public trust. (what a concept)
this is ultimate cowardice and willingness to work within a broken system. I can understand your point of view as an attorney, but it is never attorneys that cause major changes. you will note that NOTHING changed as a result of watergate. Explain to us again how this is going to help us in any way for the future? waiting all but guarantees no change whatsoever
Sorry, this is naievete to it’s Nth degree. accept what we have and wait? Poland thought that was a good idea, France, Russia. They allowed someone to bring war to their doorstep because they thought they could wait it out and it would go away.
this is the america of today. people that no more have the will to make their country one of laws than they will stop using their gasoline as though it were an endless supply. And we will have the government use us as tools, and play us like violins as long as we are so complacent. They are building a new world order that has room only for the 1%. Does anyone doubt this any longer?
take a stand, and stop ignoring the reality that slaps us in the face, each and every day. we backed candidates that played us for saps.
time for some real changes, not eloquence.
katymine, JEP and JML -
Helpful, knowledgable people like you are another major benefit of visiting the Lake. Thanks so much…….will follow-up to see what’s available activity-wise in my state.
“What are your thoughts on all of this? I’m all ears. So pull up a chair…”
The thought that comes to mind is: What is suggested is the “go along to get along” philosophy. The acceptance of the “blink” by the democrats as a momentary setback is going to result in the acceptance of the Bush policy because the momentum was lost. Thinking it can be regained is foolish rationalization.
katymine @ 103
Yes. Astounding that the staunchest defenders of capitalism don’t even understand it.
I’m a congenital lurker. Thanks for all the hours of commentary, comfort and snark. And great music, too. I especially want to thank Marion for going behind the wall and for making delicious breakfasts!
1. CENSORSHIP is CENSORSHIP, period…
(i don’t care *what* your (purported) motivations are)
2. no manner of justifications and rationalizations cover up the fact that MOST people -including MOST pwogwessives – DO NOT believe in -much less practice- true, real, warts-and-all free speech, period…
3. so-called ‘civility’ is both overrated *AND* used as a cudgel by ‘polite society’ to prevent any/all dissent, period…
4. i’ll stop now before i get CENSORED period period period
art guerrilla
aka ann archy
eof
Welcome chigail!
Hope to hear from you often.
Christy, I can’t believe you have only been posting for a year and a half. Even though I don’t post often, I feel most of us have been net friends for a lot longer.
Good morning everybody! Not much more to add that hasn’t been added, but I’ll try.
FDL is my online home. Yes, we have disputes and arguments but were are as close to an online family as you will find. It sucks to suffers setbacks like the Iraq vote, but as one who has dealt with many setbacks in the last few years, you just need to adjust your path and keep walking forward. To do otherwise is to give in to despair and madness, which I refuse to do.
I love all of you, but especially the mods and Christy and Jane for creating this amazing community. Cheers! (with coffee)
wlgriffi at 124 — Wrong. Nowhere did I say that we simply roll over and accept the status quo — hence this paragraph: “This is so true, and something that we all forget from time to time, so it is worth a reminder every once in a while that while we may want a hero to ride in on a white steed and fix all the nation’s ills…we aren’t going to get one. We have to be our own heroes, that is how things are now and how they always have been. We must be the change we wish to see.”
What part of that says roll over and play dead? Honestly, people need to stop projecting things that I am not saying onto me, because that is supremely irritating. What I did say was whatever anger you have at how things are, don’t take it out on people in the comments. The reason you guys aren’t seeing a lot of it in the comments is because the moderators and I have been taking care of a lot of the truly nasty stuff the instant it hits the comments, before it has a chance to fester into something worse.
The point of this post is to say “stop it” but also to say “do the work toward the things you value, and don’t tear down the things that you ought to be building up.” And not just at FDL, but across the board in Dem organizations. What happened recently with Cindy Sheehan and the whole infighting thing surrounding that is a good example. Everyone gets frustrated and needs a break — but hurling stones at people with whom you ought to be working to make things better accomplishes less than nothing. And, frankly, I’m a little weary of the “less than nothing” crowd as it is.
katymine @ 118
Lucky you guys! Does he take calls or just rants?
Some say … conflict (with intelligent reflection, ty Christy et. al.) is a necessary springboard to “higher” and “deeper” levels of group behaviour and expression. And FDL was already a winner.
I want the war to never have happened. The supplemental was a revelation of how serious all this is.
What I didn’t expect was that FDL would be able to respond based on so much that is already in place … so quickly to buoy me up about all future prospects.
What are we 10 days out? Already this community has challenged 2 candidates BlueAmerica supported, participated in ground-breaking progressive technology (think about vlogging in a year!) to bring Senator Dodd’s stark leadership to those who can support his efforts, and today we will engage with Admiral Slestak who for all his knowledge very much needs to hear our clear and fact-based arguments about the war, the funding, the spin he’s in, and the lies. And that this must start ending now. No matter how long it takes. Time’s up.
And Christy is looking for other ways to bring action to bear.
I’m blown away.
Let’s keep going. Let’s keep learning the lessons: put our money, our hearts, and our feet where our mouths are. We can make a difference.
Phoenix Woman has gone camping but left a post upstairs…
Christy Hardin Smith @ 120
Gruesome vision to say the least.
Oldtree @ 123;
It says something about how good they are in that a country where the population is as heavily armed as in the USA hasn’t had some sort of popular uprising. They’ve been f*cking the working class since the civil war ended.
Boo!
http://www.commondreams.org/he…..027-06.jpg
It’s been a busy few weeks, and I haven’t been to the Lake as much as I would like, so I’ve not noticed the friction.
Still, from my experience dipping into this and other sites, FDL remains the most conversational in a “let’s all hang out in the kitchen” sense.
art guerilla at 127 — Wrong. This is a blog, not a governmentally-sponsored public sunshine forum. As such, those of us who run the blog get to treat it like our living room. For example, you act like an ass and break all the china and generally cause problems, you don’t get invited back for tea. (And that is a general you, not you specifically…) You want an unfettered environment in which you can spew whatever filth or v*agra spam you choose or what have you? Start your own damn blog, say whatever you like on it, and find a few like minded people who like that sort of thing.
This is Jane’s living room, not a mud-wrestling pit. And, frankly, I like it that way.
Hi, I’m one of those lurkers who often reads diaries here, but has never posted. I liked the way you compared the recent betrayal of the Democratic Blue Dog Iraq Occupation Appreciation Society to a relationship; it is somewhat like finding out your spouse has been not only sleeping around, but openly mocking you in the heat of the infidelity.
But then again, I’ve never been married, so I’m only guessing. However, I can say with some experience that it’s never too early for zen.
Hey GregDiablo!
Welcome to the lake! Good to hear from you.
I’ve noticed that firedoglake has been out of control for some time. I have been subjected to numerous ad hominems.
I rarely post on this website anymore. The biggest problem, in my experience, is moderators who don’t do their job. Instead, they encourage ad hominem.
I’ll be happy to discuss this more privately, if website authorities wish to contact me.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 138
Way to go. I bet you were fierce in the court room..
Morning Lake, CHS. Big day in Zhivland, little Zhiv’s Bar Mitzvah, and we’re reaching the end of the quiet early morning pregame mode. This topic is interesting to me because it covers something like the issues I’m talking about in the…ahem… speech/blessing I have to give in a little while.
I grew up obsessed with sports, eating breathing and drinking Lakers Bruins Dodgers etc. etc. My son is athletic, but he does not have a competitive bone in his body. This has been a great lesson and gift to me. So I will say:
You’re truly a member of a new generation, you are so free and so considerate and open and unbiased. Your world and the assumptions that support and define it are completely different from the naive and unconscious prejusdices of my own childhood and youth, when it seemed like everybody had to be the same, when there was a small group of winners, and the losers were out of luck. You represent a new type of manhood that breaks with tradition, and all us can learn from your approach to life. For you there is no fake opponent, no enemy, no one to conquer and kill. No one knows better than you that life is about love, and love is about respecting life. You would never wage war or fall prey to false premises of violence, oppression, and greed. Your life already shows the highest values of communication and diplomacy and the understanding and celebration of differences. And whether you are an artist or a statesman or both, you will bring people together and continue to make them laugh and smile, make them feel more alive somehow, and you will help us all enjoy the precious gifts of freedom and fellowship.
L’chaim.
katymine @ 118
When will there be progress in his “investigation” I wonder if Charlton was onto something which would have been another dagger in his back. (Bill =AZ Bill also) Disappointed in Harry Mitchell and let him know (twice)
oldtree at 122 — Where in the entire post did I say roll over and play dead and just suck it up? Nowhere. For heaven’s sakes people, I’m not saying be Neville Chamberlain — but change cannot happen in minutes, not in DC, no matter how much we want it to happen. And pretending that it can is a fairy tale.
Doing the hard work needed to constantly push change forward, against whatever obnstacles get thrown in our way? Now that is a worthy goal. And one that we ought to be fighting because, frankly, to do otherwise is cowardly surrender. I’ll think you and everyone else to re-read the post and tell me where I said surrender is the way to go…because I decidedly did not say so. But if you think that you get to be angry and take it out on everyone else in the comments, you can think again. This isn’t some rowdy pool hall where anything goes and people get to break pool cues over other people’s heads at will. It never has been and never will be. Disagreement on issues, on facts, on policy goals — all good things, and somethng that ought to be fostered for discussion.
Name-calling, juvenile bullshit? Nope. And no attempt to mischaracterize what I said above gets around that. Sorry, not buying it.
I have ten blogs I visit almost every single day, a list that has grown from five two years ago. FDL has been on that list for about 18 months, and the time I spend here has grown and grown (I was practically glued to the screen during the Libby trial). It is in my humble opinion, the best blog out there. What I like about FDL is the diversity of posters, including a heavy female presence, something that is missing from so many other blogs. The discourse is amazing passionate and intellectual, always thought-provoking. What you have built here is amazing, and unlike anything else out there in the blogosphere. So thank you so much for that.
I have posted maybe ten, twelve comments here since I’ve been reading, so I guess it may be time to introduce myself. I’m a 36 year old single mother living in SO. Indiana. I work in accounting, though I have an English degree and love to write. I’m engaged to be married this year. First marriage for both–he is a nurse. And an amazing man. The best I’ve ever met. Which is, of course, why I’m marrying him. Anyway, I’m really into music as a fan, and I love to follow a couple of bands around when I can. When not at home or work, nose to the grindstone, I can be found in Ohio following around Over the Rhine, or somewhere in the mid-West (and occasionally Canada) following the Cowboy Junkies. Yeah, aged freaky fan girl, that’s me. ;)
AZ Matt…. just can’t stand being cootied so will not listen
A Toast to CHRISTY… fresh cuppa Hear Hear…
My rant……
Define Something:
Become a Precinct Committee Person
Attend your district, county and state party meetings – OUR Elected officials ARE NOT the Democratic Party, it’s members ARE the Party. If your Party is not doing something then YOU are not doing it.
Join DFA or PDA
Work for a campaign
Write emails, letters, sign petitions
Call into talk radio … even “their” shows
All it takes is 5 minutes a day, what is your Democracy worth to you?
Rome wasn’t built in a day and change takes time. At times it is one step forward and two backwards.
Patience ….. Persistence…. Team work
Zhiv @ 142: Beautiful.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 138
Ah. Bingo. That’s the reference I was looking for.
Lisa Williams, a role model in blogging, has a “Living Room Policy” as part of her personal principles of blogging. I cannot recommend her principles and that Living Room Policy enough.
This is a living room, and there will be some disagreement. But we still have to live together in the living room when we are done with the disagreement.
I don’t know about you folks, but there are some things I don’t permit in my living room. Including anyone drinking red Kool-Aid (that stain will NEVER come out).
Oh, and by the way, FirePups, good morning to you all, including new faces who’ve emerged from lurking. Been chatting with some of the FirePups over in Gabbly.com/firedoglake.com this morning and now have to leave to go shopping with the teenager.
Zhiv and young Zhiv—
Mazel tov!
Rosie at 121 — You know, by taking a lot of the good conversations to gabbly all the time, you deprive the comments here of those conversations. And, in the process, you weaken the continued conversation here while strengthening the conversation over there.
If the comments continue to lose voices that are talking about action, how exactly does the site that brought you all together gain strength from that? I have to say, and this is just me, but the whole gabbly thing is a double-edged sword.
Rosie @ 121 says:
“I was one of the people who was not thrilled in November because it was clear back then that the “victory” was not what it appeared to be – and I was called a troll here for that opinion. I’m not happy that reality has confirmed my premonitions, but it appears group think on any blog (and that’s one of the negative qualities of a ‘community’) causes people to not be open to other views (and other views are often true and very, very useful to understand).”
The same thing happened to me in early January. I was not only called a troll but invited to leave and not come back by some of those now calling for civility in the comments. I was a loyal reader and contributor to candidates and other efforts promoted here. After the “piling on” by some of your regulars, I realized this is not a community I want to be a part of. I rarely read FDL anymore.
[Mod: You were asked more than once not to engage in name-calling of other FDL commenters. You were not asked to leave the blog, you announced that your were leaving.]
JPL at 129 — It will be two years in September. :)
Even though it’s hotter than blazes here and it’s not yet 11am, I think I might make cookies similar to those I made for Christmas presents. I had a vast selection and got many different votes for number one. My little nephew chose the chocolate chip store-bought refridgerator ones (which he had requested) but most of the others were from the FDL recipe share from around last Thanksgiving. My family’s eyes glaze over when I talk politics, but they were drooling for FDL cookies! I can’t keep up with the many commenters nowadays so mostly lurk, but am still reading, reading….
zhiv at 142 — Mazeltov to little zhiv. :) And to you, too — hope all goes very well for you all today.
What’s a gabbly?
art guerrilla @ 127
Right.
Start your own blog. Unmoderated. They’re free. Platforms for unfettered rants abound, the last time I checked.
Oh, I meant to also include that I agree that we can’t give up. Yes the vote was disappointing. I agree it was wrong. But recently there was a post on a blog, maybe TPM or Glenn Greenwald, about how long it took, and the political maneuvering involved in the standoff with Nixon over the Vietnam War. It took something like 18 months and several different votes over that time. Now, there aren’t exact parallels here with the Iraq invasion, but still, politics can sometimes be like a game of chess. Sometimes it takes time to build your position. I think there are some wrong moves being made in that planning, but I’m not leaving the game–I’m just going to try harder to coach my players. As a citizen and voter, that is my job.
Hey, the magic eraser is indeed magic. We were trying to seel our condo – and I had one of those plastic bathtubes that just would not get clean looking. I tried all kinds of different cleaners, some bought off the TV even – with gloves. Finally one day I pulled out my eraser – which I already used on walls – and with some elbow grease, the tub cleaned up quite nicely. Don’t bother with the new ones that have soap added, it didn’t add anything and costs more.
I don’t comment as much here as I used to. Not sure why other than my life has been in quite a uproar the last few months. I sort of got in the habit of not commenting during the Libby trial – when the comments would slow down the whole site. But I have donated. And I sent a rubber stamp – and of course, I’ve helped by donating to candidates.
I’m so looking forward to YearlyKos. GrandmaJ and I are sharing a room. We can’t wait for the opportunity to meet Redd and Jane and all the other FDL’ers.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 145
Sounds like the poster that you chide has a little problem.
Time for action, not eloquence, this poster shouts.
LOts of authoritarian leaders and their followers use this sentiment as their battle cry.
It’s a time for reason, not volume, that’s my take.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 151
My bad, Christy. I introduced Gabbly as a way to offload heavy traffic of one-liners from the live blogging threads to keep the FDL servers from busting.
Chatting is nice for off-topic stuff and one-liners, but for real in-depth conversation about the topic at hand, there is no substitution for the threads here at FireDogLake. I’ll point out that some of the most important content next to the posts themselves are in the comments; that content is indexed by search engines and can be referred to just as Christy did this morning with several commenters’ submissions.
But Gabbly is not saved to a public resource, not indexed or searchable. Hence Gabbly’s use for only temporary, ephemeral content — just not the same as the threads.
And now seriously off to shopping (I am draggin my feet now).
Anna Belle at 145 — Welcome! :)
Thank you Christy! FTR, I love reading about you, Redd & The Peanut. My girl is 13, but it still reminds me of home, and often of when she was younger. And your legal insights are outstanding. IANAL, so I have learned a great deal from you. Thank you for all that you do.
jere @ 152
I and many others have been offended by the personal attacks waged by some of the regulars on this website.
The effect is that these offensive regulars drive off others who are interested in discussion and understand that vituperation is not discussion.
The result is that this has become a website where a selected few end up talking only with each other.
The shopping discussions are pathetic.
The result, unless action is taken by website authorities, will be the failure of this website.
That would be too bad, since there are things that this website does better than any other.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 151
Christy, it can be. But it IS useful for heavy traffic days, when people are trying not to comment and put strain on the server….you know…when you’re BURSTING to say something, but fearful you might cause the site to crash. As a rule, I don’t hang there except on those high-traffic days. For those who do, it answers a need that the nature of blogging precludes. The conversation we are collectively having takes many forms. FDL is one…and can’t be all things to all people. You might be gratified to know that the folks I’ve met who hang there are all avid supporters of this site, are right here AND there, looking for ways to connect and be effective.
So, Christy, had the ex-Marine showed up at the anti-Iraq war rally in fatigues he’d bought at a commercial army suplus store, would he still be at UCMJ risk?
(Tangentially like the “what constitutes a ‘flag’?” problem w/respect to flag burning amendment proposals.)
I’d guess it’s inevitable that there will be ‘unpleasantness’ from time to time. It is unavoidable – because one of the things that brings people here is passion and sometimes it spills over. Having a pretty good idea of what is really going on in this country, and how oblivious most people (deliberately so in the media) are about it, there are times when the frustration I feel is almost too much.
On the other hand I live with someone who is in a semi-permanent state of rage most of the time, and I know all too well what happens when anger bypasses the brain on its way to the mouth. (Or the keyboard. ;-{)
It’s a question of riding that rage and channeling it. You can light a fire and burn things down, or you can light a fire and use it to make the steam that powers the engines of change. There’s a time and a place for both approaches.
From another context, the Macintosh Way, Guy Kawasaki wrote about what it is like to compete with Microsoft. If I remember correctly, his comparison was “Imagine your head in a vise. Imagine it getting tighter and tighter. Imagine it as tight as you can stand – then imagine it tighter still. That’s what it’s like to compete with Microsoft.”
That’s what we’re up against, a determined well-funded entrenched right wing political machine that is determined to eradicate everything we believe in – even if it ultimately leads to their own demise. To make another reference, They’d Rather Be Right than admit that their ideology might have a few flaws. Some of Kawasaki’s advice applies to competition with the Right Wing – because let’s face it – they are attempting to establish a monopoly control of politics in this country.
As for Congress, well to paraphrase some old rich white guy, you start reform with the Congress you have, rather than the Congress you want. We’re at the beginning, not the end of the process. Think of where FDR was starting from in the 30’s, and look how far he got – and how hard the Right has worked to reverse everything he did. We’d thought the country had been pretty well served and agreed with the things the New Deal brought about. We relaxed and took our eyes off the ball – and they stole it, bribed the refs, and rewrote the rules of the game.
We don’t have the equivalent of WWII yet – though Bush/Cheney are trying their hardest. We’ve got something tougher: global climate change and the continuing energy crisis. Neither of them is going to be solved in 4 years, and spying, torture, invasion, and military force don’t seem to be the way to overcome them – but that’s all the rightwing has to offer at this point. (At the core, that’s about all they’ve ever had to offer.)
There’s not a lot in my life I’m particularly happy about at the moment. There’s a lot that needs fixing – and the paradox is it’s easier to spend time on efforts like this than it is to address my own shortcomings. At some level I’ve lost confidence in my ability to deal with my personal problems, so I try to do what I can in a larger context. Something Lois McMaster Bujold said in one of her novels comes back to me, along the lines of “if we can’t save ourselves, maybe we can take turns saving each other.”
Firedoglake is the kind of place where that can happen. Let’s keep it that way.
BobbyG at 165 — You know, I’m not certain. I think there was some question about appearing in uniform, but he may have been in outmoded camo (can’t remember from the video). I am by no means an expert on UCMJ — but if it is solely based on him being active-duty versus retired, my understanding is that he was already retired. I just don’t know specifics on either the UCMJ on this one or the details of where he was exactly on the path to retirement to say anything for certain, though.
It’s certainly going to be interesting, though — especially given that top brass are, effectively, recallable for life. And one wonders if thise sort of test case might be used to stifle the critics from becoming teevee talking heads — simply because you can.
jere—
You were asked more than once not to engage in name-calling of other FDL commenters. You were not asked to leave the blog, you announced that your were leaving.
Christy, thank you for the work you’ve been doing here to create a place where we can join in good will to share our thoughts and ideas.
I apppreciate what you and Jane (and the other long time front pagers ) have done to make this a safe place to share ideas.
And I’m also very, very grateful for the mods and their amazing work. Experiencing the comment process “up close and personal” last weekend gave me (and my inner charlatan?) even more appreciation for what you and the mods have to deal with.
(and thanks to all of you for putting up with >1000 word “comments” with way too many typos…)
Regarding the Marine, it is confusing to me why he is being singled out as using his Military appearance at a political event, when Bush uses the Military all the time as his backdrop for press conferences.
PeteCO @ 117
WOuld that it were so simple. But you’re on-target.
Read about Whittig lately? He’s hoping for some unique new “Federal Assistance.”
Ever wonder how much intrigue is hiding ‘neath those scientological skirts? Profit and pernicious influence, nowadays there’s a faith-based, book-cooking, no-bid neocon Sun Myung Mooner hiding under every rock in the Bushes….
Anna Belle,
Your taste in music is great. For those of you not familiar with the Cowboy Junkies, try ‘Sweet Jane’ here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHRFZFmEq9o
Christy Hardin Smith @ 167
BTW- Recall that nothing ever happened to that absurd General Boykin for showing up in church in full military regalia to crowingly bloviate ad nauseum about his “real God” vs Islamic “false idols.”
Moreover, I can recall countless Bush campaign events where uniformed troops were shamelessly used as props.
The UCMJ section in question is silent on what constitutes an actual “uniform.” I would assume it’s the one they issued him, but, then IANAJAG lawyer or judge.
Can we talk about Dan Bartlett? Why do you all think he left? And why now?
solai @ 174
Maybe so he won’t shortly be a “current White House official under indictment”?
???
Christy, I lurked here for almost a year before finally dipping my toe in the Lake. I am a former moderator of another high-profile website. I know it’s hard to believe, but the arguments here are tame in comparison to what’s been going on there for the past six months. FDL is definitely one of the more literate and thoughtful places on the Web.
In the middle of the darkest period of our nation, it does me good to come here and read about The Peanut and the poodles when I’m getting my daily dose of What’s Happening. It reminds me that there’s something else in life besides the Wurlitzer and those who put personal agenda before the good of the nation.
Without getting off on a rant here, not everyone who’s recently delurked is the enemy, and some of the commenters may want to bear that in mind.
Thanks for making such a great place.
-S
BobbyG @ 174
Well, that’s what I’m wodering but I’m not aware of anything going on where he could face indictment. Is there?
I have a suggestion for FDL–but no idea if it is feasible.
Create a “go to page”/FAQ/”summary to date” page for EACH unfolding scandal/investigation.
Within each topic, hot links could take newbies (and oldbies alike) back to the original posts and comments section. Time lines and cast of characters might help round out the information in each topic.
My hope is that the moderated blogs not only offer an opportunity to vent and hash out ideas but also become the new repository of accumulated knowledge and understanding-maybe something along the lines of Wikipedia but concentrating specifically on the burning issues.
One large topic I think should be covered is post election 2000 changes to federal laws. Create side by side comparisons of the law: before and after BushCo. This will point the way for a progressive Congress.
(Or does Congress have the capability to do so now and FDL the ability to link to it?)
I wish proposed bills were electronically available to the public, any last minute changes (read ‘pork barrel projects’) forced to live in BRIGHT RED font so that they are easily noted. Any changes would have identifying tags telling us which Congressperson’s office made the change. You know, give the People some chance at oversight of the Oversighters.
BobbyG @ 173
From what I’ve read, ALL insignia had been removed from the uniforms in question. He is a member of the IRR, having completed his active duty but not his total commitment.
And the National Commander of the VFW has spoken up and told the Marine Corps to lighten up; that it is not appropriate for them to be going after KoKesh for exercising his constitutional rights that he fought for in combat. He further states that he may not agree with Kokesh’s message but that’s why we have the first amendment.
Boykin is Army not Marines but it is the Marines CoS who was sounding like an idiot a couple of weeks ago (not Pace on the gay is immoral thing but the other one making idiotic comments about something).
Did you say Beatles?
Morning All,
I try to read FDL every day,but like some its usually late, I comment from time to time,but I never thought I would be proud to call myself a “lurker”.
SHOUT OUT TO NJP
During the last 6 years I have yelled at the computer and the TV and used all sorts of nasty words. I have found the perfect solution – do NOT watch the news and under no circumstances are you to watch GWB. You lose some of the comedy but it makes my tummy hurt.
God, I feel old. I started here when it was a little place on blogspot. But something was in the air here, and as it has grown to maturity, it is being realized. As a retired sociologist, I tend to look at things from a distance, and sometimes I try to remind folks that there is a big cultural shift happening in American society, and hope that keeps people from getting lost in the passion of the moment.
Lindy @ 164
I thought “the gabbly” was just for heavy traffic times?
So there’s some concern about the flow of intellectual property transfering out when Gabbly is on? So often, it is the entire sum of commentary, when added to the front-page posts, that clarifies or edifies an issue for me, so I can see why something that whizzes by on Gabbly might have added to that sum, in a way that can be referenced as archives.
I know there are no archives on Gabbly, maybe some folks want to vent without a permanent record? But I have to say, going back to reference some of the nuggets that stuck to my memory ribs is one of FDL’s greatest assets.
And with Gabbly, those “nuggets” (and there are certainly little nuggets of quick insight on Gabbly there’s no doubt about it) can never get re-digested.
But it is always fun trying to keep up with the much faster Gabbly pace, it is more spontaneous because it is rolling out of sight even as you type. So there’s an urgency to say as much in as few words as possible, which takes away some of the fluency and the fluidity of the FDL comments.
And some of the civility… not tomention that you never want to mention “men” like “Fitz” at the wrong time on Gabbly, it can really send the gabbly thread down a sexist curlycue, depending on who’s lurking and posting.
But that’s another story.
solai @ 177
Charges of caging votes, I think.
I appreciate the conversation over the last day or two about the civility on blogs (this one in particular). I have been wondering the same thing, but more about general civility rather than as to how it applies just to blogs.
I think the two things in the news this week: Cindy Sheehan’s resignation and Rosie’s resignation from The View brought this to a head for me. How mean “we” have all become?!
The vitriol and hatred expressed by so many (especially the right wing, supposedly “compassionate conservative” type) but also by any one who disagrees with their viewpoints is amazing to me.
I want to say that looking at this over the years that this kind of hate has been fostered by the conservative movement and the winning of elections by so many republicans. This sounds simplistic, but really, especially since W was first elected, there has been a huge concerted effort to at best deny that there is a second party and therefore at least deny a second viewpoint in this country.
Instead of embracing the 2 party system, the “other party,” us Dems have been made irrelevant, ignored, made fun of, laughed at and even demonized. Most of this has been done through lies and half truths, but those lies and half truths have stuck. I saw an item on another blog that was entitled, “Pundits never have to apologize,” summing up how many conservative voices have been wrong on so many things and instead of correcting their mistatements, they either ignore them, or continue to ludicrously embrace them. And I think a lot of the country has embraced this approach. No one is ever wrong. And if you are not wrong, you don’t have to apologize. And if you are always right you can be condescending and mean to those who are “wrong.”
This country used to be open to opinions. That’s what freedom of speech was all about. Now so many of us have become intolerant. While the conservatives think they are always right, we liberals think they are always wrong. And we aren’t any better than they are, we don’t respect their opinions either.
John Krogman at 164 — You know, we have always had issues with that from time to time. When I catch it, I try to break it up — because I, too, am troubled by a group dynamic versus an individual consideration on comments issue. But it can be hard to catch in real time when you are researching and writing your next piece as well as trying to monitor coments, and so some individual commenter discussion on that issue can also be helpful.
For some reason that I have never been able to identify, some people delight in pointing a “troll finger” at others, whether or not it is actually justified. It is not only irksome, but often wrong and I’ve had to point that out on many occasions. We have moderators for a reason and they take care of things as they happen for the most part, so someone jumping up and down in the comments about another commenter — whether they are an actual trollish person or simply someone with whom they disagree — just makes the moderators work more difficult.
But it can be a tough job to try and balance conversation and discussion on a lot of points while, at the same time, keeping it from degenerating into namecalling. And it cannot be something that only the front page folks and the mods do — it is all of our responsibility to help with that in our little community. And I would say that if someone sees something that is unfair, they should say so — because it may be that I or some other front pager is on a conference call or working on a fresh post (or in my case, away from the keyboard playing with The Peanut for a little bit). But ganging up on someone is just wrong — here or elsewhere — and people need to think before they engage in some sort of mob mentality because that comes so close to the bullying line and often crosses it, and that is patently unfair to the person who is subjected to it. Argue ideas, argue facts, argue concepts — but don’t attack someone personally because that is simply wrong.
OT but interesting to regular readers here:
Ralston to plead the fifth
I am way late to this discussion, but I am going to try to chime in constructively.
First–I want to echo what strategerie said above about how not all recently de-lurked commenters are “enemies”…I lurked here a very long time before I began to comment. I knew the blog and the commenters as well as those who were more active than me. In other words, I cringe everytime I see a new commenter branded as a “concern troll.” But I understand the impulse, on some level, because for the old-timers, FDL has become a safe oasis in the midst of a deeply troubling world–many of us are literally in the desert politically in terms of where we live, family etc. But it is important to not allow that “protective impulse” turn into a kind of cyber-xenophobia.
I must also say that I am a little in the dark regarding outbreaks of rudenss–perhaps I missed the relevant threads, perhaps it went over my head. But I will say, compared to a lot of other places, FDL is incredibly sane and civilized. Which is why I feel comfortable commenting.
I will also say that I have probably been a person who is guilty of offense. Not that I mean to be, but there are a few things which really get under my skin, and it pains me to see them expressed on a progressive blog like this. A case in point being the prison rape comments–I have personal, as well as political reasons, for finding such cracks incredibly offensive, and yes, frightening. I am always so relieved that Christy and others clamp down on them–but I am mystified as to why they keep occuring, which is why I feel motivated to chime in with my .02. I know it is a fine line between speaking up about something and fanning the flames, and so I am sorry if I have crossed that line at times.
On the other hand, I have been on the recieving end of some very constructive criticism. Yesterday, dakini (sp?) pointed out how a comment I made about immigration bill sounded racist (it was not my intent–but, she was right, it did read that way). The fact that she spoke up as she did was important, as I learned that I needed to be a little more conscious as to how I phrased things, and then there was the greater benefit of (hopefully) educating others, and I was grateful that she picked up on what I said as she did.
Is there an ability to reach moderators currently on duty at any given time on FDL?
Thanks,
-S
Lindy @ 184
Bartlett is implicated in that??? Something that Greg Palast had?
I go to very few other blogs anymore. FDL has that perfect combination of intelligence, expertise, humor, snark, and informed commenters that no other place has.
And, when it chooses to, it can strike with great speed. Like, for example, the delivery of rubber stamps to congress, or the delivery of books to congressional offices, or the live blogging of the Libby trial. Nowhere else do you see that combination.
Strategerie at 190 — Yes, it’s called posting a question in the comments. *g* Since our moderators are also commenters who wish to comment without having the “stigma” of moderator hanging over their heads (some people take it really personally when an off-color comment gets noted or removed, you see), we try to help protect their privacy where we can. But posting a question in the comments gets picked up very quickly by a “Lurking Mod.”
sofistic @ 190
True. I love this site. You forgot to mention that it keeps us sane.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 139
Very well said, Christy. Thank you.
I often enjoy arguing politics and having polite disagreements with guests in my living room, or in other people’s homes. Jane, beautiful atmosphere, wonderful decorating, excellent choice of guests.
Back in the 90s I saw some amazing things that most folks never took notice of. In 1994 I had noticed that although there were civil wars, ethnic conflicts and some post colonial fallout, war between nations could not be found anywhere on the planet. Shortly afterward there were a couple of border disputes in Africa and South America. This peace among nations lasted pretty much through the rest of the Clinton presidency.
The second thing that I became aware of way back then was that folks were working on various kinds Digital LSD, and when these technologies emerged in the marketplace, it would become widespread that people would use these devices to explore altered states of awareness heretofore only available through deep meditation over many years, or the use of entheogenic substances.
This has been my focus for 14 years. Patience is part of the package. A paradigm shift is happening quietly around us. Perhaps Heaven on Earth is merely a change in perspective.
Long run vs. running out the clock, is the dilemma. Dems have a choice to basically stop running the country & prosecute all of Bush’s crimes & corruption, or to try to take care of this country’s business while Bush & cronies stall, dodge & run out the clock.
Certainly, Congress can’t do everything at once, but the Dems approach of being methodical only plays into Bush’s hands.
Dems need to go to the top with a full attack tactic, ala how the Repugs went after Clinton. And they need to react swiftly to Bushco’s stalling tactics. Dems are not mean enough,a nd they need to e. we don;t have to lower ourselves to repug level, but we need to realize what game Bush is playing and counter it.
Otherwise, 2008 will come & go, Bush will still be stalling and they will all waltz away from office with their crimes undiscovered & unpunished. this is what bush is betting on.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 192
Christy, thank you so much, maybe the better thing is to send an e-mail with my question.
-S
LaFourmiRouge @ 188
LFR, since when is Ralston off-topic on FDL? This little “nugget” in the article LFR refers to caught my eye, just makes the ganglia twitch!
“The Committee noted that Ralston “appeared voluntarily and testified on a number of subjects unrelated to the Abramoff matter,” in the May 10 deposition.
“Wasted words… already been heard???”
Not likely. Ralston knows stuff we all would like to hear…
Here I was going to write something yesterday about how I am coming to treasure this site and how so much of what it brings to the day stems from the efforts of people whom I see one part of (the signed bloggers) and those whom I see nothing of but the results of their activities (the mods), but it seemed OT.
Now it is OT, but the thread has sprinted into the high 180’s: EPU territory. Oh well. The sentiment is still valid.
(I found a site called ‘urban dictionary’ and there found out what EPU means and that it had originated here at FDL.)
azureblue @ 197
Yep.
solai @ 196
Is sanity a requirement here? Please say it’s only a suggestion. :)
BTW, where is EPU, and *ilson?”
solai @177, Marcy did a post on Dan Bartlett that you might find interesting
“Dems have a choice to basically stop running the country & prosecute all of Bush’s crimes & corruption, or to try to take care of this country’s business while Bush & cronies stall, dodge & run out the clock.”
400* Congressmen, 100 Senators, each with extended armies of staffers, and you suggest they can only handle the oversight?
That’s starting to sound like the beginning of another excuse, and another attempt to obfuscate the sins we now suffer from.
There’s no reason, with the army of politically involved individuals circulating around DC, that they can’t manage all of this, quite graciously, especially if they are willing to work a 40-hour week.
Oversight is essential, and this process of retrospective oversight is now even more important than it has ever been. We’ve been “stepped-on lied-to, cheated-on and treated like dirt..” so now that we have the gavel, it is time to uncover that pattern of abuse, both as righteous retribution and as a guarantee that future such subterfuge gets nipped in the proverbial bud, whenever it sprouts another ugly blossom.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 187
Thanks for your thoughtful response. In the instance that I was commenting upon, the moderator blocked my comments on the AD HOMINEMS, and blocked some of my responses to the AD HOMINEMS.
Your injunction to argue, argue, argue but don’t engage in personal attacks is just right, and I am glad that we agree on this point.
I won’t mention the moderator’s name here — it would serve no purpose other than to negate my point — but my experience happened in the last several months.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 19
Gee, someone around here as old as I am!!! I was in college down the peninsula. I remember one girl had a b&w tv in her room [this was the era BEFORE co-ed dorms and BEFORE everyone had a tv — hell, it was even before COMPUTERS and the INTERNETS — but I digress].
We [girls] all piled into her room to watch the Beatles on Ed Sullivan. And scream a little.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 138
I think that last sentence is the key. There is a place for living rooms and a place for mud-wrestling pits.
Those of us who like living rooms congregate here and enjoy the conversations. Those who come here and want to treat the place as a mud-wrestling pit should not be shocked to find themselves unwelcome.
Regarding Gabbly:
I think we can all agree that Gabbly was an essential tool during the Libby trial, as a way to take some strain off the servers and as a way to blow off steam. The nature of the conversation there is much more fast and loose, with commenters “running over each other” with quips and quick hits, hellos and goodbyes as people check in or out. I do not think it detracts from the main threads, as all the Gabbly commenters check in to the Lake regularly, and alert each other when there are great comments and/or new threads.
Also – I regularly see comments posted on FDL by people who are simultaneously Gabbling away.
azureblue @ 198
What I find worrisome is that they may well be planning NOT to leave office at all. What would happen if there were to be a domestic disaster on the scale of 9/11 or larger and the recently published continuity plan went into effect, putting all the operations of government into the hands of POTUS? What kind of disaster would be of sufficient magnitude to trigger that?
Incidentally, why should a properly functioning Congress be unable to both perform oversight — even impeachment, if need be — and embark on needed legislation? On occasions when I’ve been faced with a complicated mess (years of papers to file; tangled briars, vines, and branches to get in order), I’ve found that dealing with the obvious and accessible bits exposes more easy bits, and that eventually the tangle falls apart, making the rest simple to handle. Kind of a ‘multiple pass’ approach. Not quite the same process as undoing a tangled string. Congress is faced with a genuine briar tangle, put in place with malice aforethought. Like Dean with his 50-state strategy, they ought to attack all the exposed parts at once. But. They must be remorseless. When dealing with briars, you cannot allow them the chance to whip around and tear your skin.
art guerilla at 127 -
I don’t know if you are the same ann archy I met in EarthFirst!, but I do not agree that our hosts’ decisions about what culture they create here is censorship.
When Earthirst! has their annual RRR, and the organizers carefully establish the space will be free of sexist and racist speech, I do not believe that is censorship, either.
Blue America thread up and ready for the reading.
solai @ 178
pursuing private sector opportunities should read “lobbying” ….. he can probably have his pick and his lawyer career counselor will probably get him in good with whoever pays the most. Oil? Pharma? Energy? ….. it will be the land of opportunity for Bartlett
Well, this “out yourself as a lurker” comment line may be coming to a close and if so, oh well.
I’ve been reading FDL for several months, but I can’t really remember what first brought me here or when. I don’t always read the comments and I think the only time I’ve ever commented was on a late-night thread that TRex started about fountain pens.
I appreciate the dialogue here. I want to give major kudos to the moderators. I was a message board moderator for several years over at AOL, and I know what a hard job you have. You do it well, and I’m grateful.
Bionic @ 209
I agree with your sentiment but disagree about what happens to some of the mud wrestlers that we find here and elsewhere.
When a moderator encourages the mud wrestlers, then such a website turns into a pit of personal attacks and other nonsense.
When we disagree with something, we need to argue, argue, and argue, but not engage in personal attacks.
But I do make exceptions for the Nutcase-in-Chief sometimes. So I’m not perfect either.
There are a lot of us who read the comments in detail, but only comment from time to time. Like me. I try to put my thoughts in carefully, recognizing that we all have a big stake in the issues, especially when we generally agree on the ends, but have various ideas about the means.
Disagreement about ends requires more effort than disagreement about means. In both cases, we need to remember that almost all of the commenters here have earned the right to a respectful hearing, particularly when there is a first flash of serious disagreement.
I read FDL every day and lurking suits me fine. You all inspire me to participate politically in ways I wouldn’t have thought of or tried before.
I once tried to join in and was immediately and unkindly criticized by a Texan for mentioning I didn’t like (living in) Texas. Quell surprise. Not the kind of thing I expect a moderator to address but it did put me off expressing any other thoughts – and yes, I’m plenty tough thanks, I just try to put what time and energy I have to more peaceful pursuits.
Thanks for all the hard work put into this site, it is really appreciated.
Thank you for allowing the extended discussion about the etiquette that should be followed at FDL and other sites too.
My interest in FDL has been revived.
One thing I’ve noticed (maybe I’m wrong) is that there is no mechanism for contacting Jane or Christy when a moderator goes off the ranch and engages in (and encourages others to do likewise) in personal attacks.
When one moderator did so to me, I looked but I couldn’t find a way of communicating timely.
Timely reporting of possible neglect or worse by a moderator might go a long way towards restoring the ettiquette that all (mostly, don’t forget the Nutcase-in-Chief, GWB) of us deserve. But this mechanism should be used only rarelty, and overuse should be sanctioned.
I think people were expecting too much from the change in Congress after the elections.
For the last couple decades Americans have become a people expecting instant gratification. To quote a doctor, “There’s a reason for labor pains, it’s not safe to have a baby with one big pain.” Investment common sense is the same. Most successful stock market investments are steady and long term.
It took almost thirty years to tear down the advances made in the sixties and early seventies, but the unequal pay Supreme Court decision this week is an example of the steady plodding of the neocons’ big plan. The people on the other side will have to gear up for a long and determined fight to regain all the rights that have been lost since the Reagan era.
John at 219 — You can always reach me at ReddHedd AT firedoglake DOT com. The Contact link at the bottom right column will take you to contact information for both Jane and I.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 29
Another great thing for crayon removal is Avon’s Skin so Soft. Comes off the walls or fabric really easy.
An additional thanks and gratitude for everyone who makes this place hum~haven’t been able to be around in timely fashion lately but love to scan front page and remarks
Moon @ 220
Mauimom @ 208
I remember that night! I was visiting my grandparents in Myrtle Beach, SC. Sullivan was must see tv in those days and my grampa was aghast to see rock ‘n roll on his favourite show. He wanted to race me to the airport but I wanted to see the Beatles. I was on leave from the Navy and had to catch a plane back to San Diego. We deployed just days after I got back and in August ‘64 found ourselves involved in the debate about going to war in Viet Nam. See, there’s this little spot in the water that became known as the Gulf of Tonkin incident.
It’s been that kinda ride ever since.
EPU for sure, but what the hey- I am an infrequent commenter – I read FDL religiously, but I savor the comments and rarely have organized my thoughts well enough to consider commenting until well after EPU territory has been reached. I’d like to add my great appreciation for the civil discourse, and for the extraordinarily witty and wise posters and commenters here.
I blog about healthcare, and increasingly, the political implications of extant non-system systems, failures, problems, challenges, access, disparity and all of the woes around healthcare. There isn’t a well-developed blogging community around healthcare, and so I started a web ring for progressive healthcare bloggers, which I’m hoping will coalesce some of the excellent writing, researching and opining from around the tubes.
I’m full of “-ics”: arthritic, dyslexic, myopic and frequently apoplectic – and so you will most always find that I edit my comments several times before I catch all of my inevitable typos and wrong word-isms. I always appreciate when people point out my mistakes – to me that’s equivalent to a friend pointing out the spinach between your teeth so that you don’t go through the rest of the day looking a bit dental-challenged.
FDL serves as my daily civics and civility lesson. I thank you all!
The best site-decent people who care, something I don’t find on the streets, which is why this is such a frustrating time. Thanks all. epu in ten seconds-I live on the west coast, and am not exactly quick draw McCraw.
Really late to the party here. Good morning from L.A.
This is quite an interesting discourse on thread civility I’ve stumbled into this a.m. For what it’s worth, I consider myself a somewhat infrequent poster but longtime reader @ FDL. Never had a problem w/namecalling myself, but I’ve noticed some here are quick to try to shut down those that don’t agree w/the flow of conversation. In my experience, the FDL Mods are equally fast @ stopping same, but I’m not here 24/7. Late Night can get rowdy, but it’s Late Night.
The one thing that distinguishes FDL from other access-for-all political blogs, IMO, is the level of civility, which occasionally needs a tweak or two to get back in balance, that of encouraging discourse rather than repelling it.
BTW, my posting rules (not putting these on others, just for me):
Never call anyone anything on a blog, period. A person you only know virtually sits behind every keyboard- inflection, sarcasm, serious or frivolous tone, life story & a lot of other things are many times hard to discern or judge from a typewritten post.
Preview button is an essential tool for having a glance @ what your words look like before sharing them. Previewing can give you the perspective of someone else looking @ what you just dashed off. I find it indispensable.
Don’t post just to be posting, wait until you feel compelled to respond, point something out, share links. I’m not big on the one-liners or rejoinders, but I’ve got no kick w/others who are. Just not my style.
If you are reading the comments & actually have nothing to say or contribute (this can be a tough one) try not to say it. :)
I like the idea of FDL being like sitting in someone’s living room w/all sorts of people sharing ideas. I always feel here as if I’m sitting in a coffee shop, student union, teachers’ lounge, etc. throwing ideas & POVs around. Good feeling…
How can you people continue to be fooled over and over and over again? When will you give up on the democratic party and start working for something that will mean REAL change? The democratic party is JUST as beholden to the military industrial complex as the repugs, they wanted the war funding, thier lobbiests wanted the war funding, so we got the war funding. It’s not that hard to see if you open your eyes!
The ONLY dem that speaks ANY truth is kucinich, and he is marginalized even by yourselves, why is that?
Hello? Hello? (mutters) They’ve all gone. (Switches out light, walks out doorway, closes door behind him or her. Footsteps fading along corridor.)
As long as we stick to politics, we’re fine. We have some of the best minds around on this board, which is extremely interesting. As soon as we get off them, (as in the Virginia shooting) we get in trouble, and even our moderators seem to make politely uncivil remarks about some posts, many of them personal, on matters (largely without knowing the poster’s background….not all of us care to publish our professional affiliations…)they might think they are qualified to comment about, and are not. I suggest we stick to politics.
Christy, this place is home. One of the first things I always do when I return from an internet-free zone is check in here. Since I’ve been doing a lot of mod work, I don’t comment as much but I still feel incredibly connected to the commenters here.
Huzzah to Jane’s doctors; aww, Balrog’s baby is sweet, ain’t it? Balrog, my Sprout says “Don’t stand too close when the baby burps (!)”.
You folks wake up too early for me…
I’ve never commented here before (that I can recall) and only stop by occasionally because I don’t really have a routine but rather follow pointers from a few favorite blogs (Atrios, TPM, The Poorman, Hullabaloo, Glenn Greenwald, CRN — also reddit and Daily Kitten) and intentionally let serendipity take me into new blogs. I just discovered N=1’s healthcare blog that way last night, and today here he (?) is on FDL!
I read this whole comment thread because I’m avoiding actually working on an essay about how progressives can regenerate hope when things like the war funding bill and Cindy Sheehan’s resignation get them down. Commenters like katymine, jdkahler and Moon are correct about the long run, and persistence. Persistence, strategy and a willingness to accept some degree of hierarchy are what built the Rethuglican machine. Progressives have to stop working on an ad hoc basis, at our convenience, and get serious about movement building.
But the thing I question here, now, is how to deal with young activists who want to run into the streets and start the revolution without having taken any intermediate steps. It is, absolutely, the moment to be doing more than talking and campaigning. But that means building organizations that last, teaching analysis and strategy and nonviolent techniques, not screaming at would-be allies who don’t want to lend a match for the fuse on an angry and despairing anarchist’s molotov cocktail.
I’m on a zillion listservs, and the rage is rising everywhere. We all will have to walk out of the living room sometimes, to show our RL faces in the RL public common. Figuring out how to do that together is the trick. Believing that it’s possible is important.
Meanwhile, here’s an article from Corey Doctorow about “How To Keep Hostile Jerks From Taking Over Your Online Community” that may have some application here:
http://www.informationweek.com…..=199600005
And I’ll be coming around here more, now on purpose. You folks sound like you’re worth visiting with. Thanks.
I read this site everyday and on rare occasion post a comment. I live in the far western US so everyone is usually fast asleep or on their way by the time I post. I must say nothing much is going to change in this government until we impeach Bush and Cheney, preferably Cheney first. It is the only way to get the television news coverage that all their crimes deserve. As much as I have been educated by this site and others, people need to be talking about these crimes out loud everywhere. People still do not realize what criminals they are. Every now and then I ask people I know (the ones that still get their news from TV or TV news websites) if they have ever heard of the PNAC, Sibel Edmonds, voter suppression in key electoral states, depleted uranium, Blackwater etc. Needless to say they have never heard of any of these topics or have a complete misunderstanding if they have. I do a lot of educating and mention this site and others whenever I can.
The reality is there is too much corporate control of the television media in particular. Television is the only media still that reaches all the people. The internet is changing that but it still has a long way to go.
I found FDL during the Libby trial and have become a huge fan. I agree with everyone who has commented on the civility and the depth of the comments and discussions.
I am a retired nurse, forced to retire at the age of 42 with a severe form of arthritis. When I was still working, struggling to survive as a single mom, and fighting this disease, I had little time and energy to become really educated about politics. I knew MSM was not telling me the entire story but didn’t have the time or energy to go digging for the stuff that was ignored or buried. Discovering sites like Kos, FDL and Huffington Post have helped me understand the tapestry that is our government, for good or ill.
I am a feminist and there is something very special about FDL, a nuance that others have described far better than I can. Dipping a toe in the lake always feels good, and I end up learn something I didn’t know before, which I love. There is so much to learn.
I have a lot of insomnia because of pain and I have become very grateful to the late night threads. When my husband is asleep and I’m waiting for a Vicodin to kick in, I can always visit the Lake. Trex and all the late night posters have entertained me through many a long and miserable night here in the Arizona desert. It’s also such a relief for someone trapped in a state that is still way too red, to spend some time every day hanging out with people who think the way my hubby and I do. Bless you all, keep up the good work, keep digging the dirt. You really are making more of a difference than any of you know. The ripple effect of this lake is growing by leaps and bounds.