I think that what many are not understanding is what I’ll call…..the “Logistics Reality” of a redeployment. So…..try to strip away from your mind all the very understandable angst, anger, dismay, etc. over the lies told to us by Bush, his general BS, the foolishness of war in Iraq….sigh…try to strip away the last 6 years. (a TALL order, I know!)

Approach the problem from pure military reality: can you, within either 60 days (by July), or within 90 days (September), SAFELY redeploy over 140,000 US combat troops in a combat zone, and the nature of the combat zone being that there are NO front lines, and NO rear areas which are safe and secure? Can you do this within either 60 or 90 days? I personally tend to think not.

The bill as worded, would have also meant the troops run way low on vital supplies (by July) during such redeployment effort. The Admiral, using his military judgment, also answered in the negative to the pure military question. The Admiral is supported by a Congressional Research study. And so…the Admiral voted against a bill which, from pure military logistics perspective, would’ve been impossible to safely pull off.

I think the key datapoint here, and for anyone to debate, is the question posed above: from a pure military perspective, can US forces safely redeploy out of the Iraq war zone within 60-90 days? And, even if the forces begin to redeploy, isn’t it necessary to keep these forces fully funded during said redeployment?

I sense that the good Admiral tried to convey these ideas in his comments above. Sestak may not have done the best at eloquence…but I think his reasons for his vote are based on pure military logistics reality.

Ghostman

… in the end, that vote is the same vote Curt Weldon would have cast

With that vote, and 85 others, our continued occupation of Iraq is assured. Nothing has changed, nothing will change. Because those 86, and the seats who voted with them for this appropriation, will not change.

If he significantly modifies his position, away from his massive enabling of Bush, I reserve the right to change my vote.

I think Hugh, Mary, and many others correctly identified the completely unacceptable quality of his responses. To paint us, Blue America, FDL, as leaving our soldiers exposed spat in the face of people here. Bush, now with Sestak’s help, are keeping them in harm’s way. We’re using the only tools available to get them out, the power of the purse. If Bush would agree to a date certain, we could extend the proposed 5-7 week interval.

1 – Growth of terrorism
2 – access and ability to protect the strategic oil fields;
3 – obligation to serve as a guarantor of Israel’s territorial integrity

1: You cannot fight terrorism without going to the core – diplomacy and cooperation; worldwide. Terrorists must be taken to the fringe.

2: Get in line. Its their oil, not ours.

3: I just puked; sorry.

What hogwash. What trash. No wonder this country is heading over a cliff.

Oh, by the way, thanks for giving Bush a blank check, great move.

Blue America MUST not support pro-war candidates. Blue America MUST not accept excuses like the ones made herein by Congressman Sestak and Ambassador Wilson for pro-war votes. If Blue America DOES accept pro-war candidates and their votes for more war, then it has no reason to exist.

We really must be firm and unswerving on this very critical matter. Zero tolerance on pro-war votes is the only appropriate policy.

We are all sick about what happened and serious people are looking at how best to extricate ourselves from the mess without sacrificing our core strategic interests in the region. There are three: Growth of terrorism;access and ability to protect the strategic oil fields; and an obligation to serve as a guarantor of Israel’s territorial integrity. All three have been terribly compromised by the administration’s misguided adventure in Iraq, but a hasty withdrawal will not make our ability to defend those interests any easier. Joe supports a definite timetable. I oppose any debates on policy that come on the backs of our armed forces as the last several have.

Joe Sestak:

I will never, ever, play chicken with the sons and daughters of America, and put them in greater danger by voting for a bill that gives them no funds to protect themselves in the next 5-7 weeks.

Wow; these are what Joe and Joe think are acceptable premises for this discussion? as much as I like to believe that I understood where they stood in the political spectrum, I must say that I don’t think I know enough about who these people are anymore; I would have expected to hear those words from Joe Lieberman, but not from Mr. Sestak or Mr. Wilson …. This is going to make me rethink and reassess ….

Christy Hardin Smith:

Tough questions are not only appropriate but also appreciated. But rudeness is not something that I am going to tolerate with a guest — we do not flamethrow here, and we are not going to start today.

When Mr. Wilson accuses P. Lukasiak of using Rovian talking points above in comment#26 above,

But votes that use the troops as a political football are,in my humble opinion counterproductive and when we allow ourselves to eat our own because we didn’t like the outcome, we play right into Karl Rove’s hands. The above comment is right out of his talking points.

does that qualify as flamethrowing? are you going to ask Mr. Wilson to retract? or perhaps scrub Mr. Wilson’s comment from the thread? In any case, how would you want folks to respond to that insinuation while maintaining a civil tone? I think you should hold your guests to the same civility standards that you are asking commenters to adhere to, and being told that one is working from the Rove play book should not qualify.

As to whether we should put Joe Sestak back on BlueAmerica, that would be no different from a serious case of battered spouse syndrome

It’s done–you voted wrong. Why you guys did not simply put the same bill as before forward or filibuster or simply let the deadline lapse i don’t know. It’s sad.

And i hope you know that even if you hadn’t funded Iraq just now, and even if you withdraw authorization, or anything, Bush would not have withdrawn any troops–he’s not going to–it’s clear–nothing you guys do short of impeachment will bring our kids home. He will gladly go to court til he leaves office rather than stop this horror.

Now–stop the trade deals, repeal the Patriot Act, stop the spying on us, stop the immigration mess of a bill, stop the judges Bush is still pushing, get Gonzales out of office, get Rove under subpoena testifying in public, Ashcroft too, etc…

Oh, Amberglow, I love you! An agenda!!!
Now do this: stop the trade deals, repeal the Patriot Act, stop the spying on us, etc etc etc. I have posted comments like this one on many other threads.

And, Joe, don’t you know that even if we could ever get a defunding bill passed again (the Repubs smell blood), Bush would continue the occupation putting our military in danger. But he doesn’t have time left in his 2nd term to push it to the max (the point at which no bullets are left to shoot, no meals are left to serve, no armor is left to hand out, no spectacular new vehicle is left to issue. . . and maybe no general who would send his troops out sans these protections). So go attend to the other stuff.

There are 2 intertwined issues here – the war, and the politics. I believe that Congressman Sestak is sincere in wanting this war of occupation to end. I believe his understanding of the politics is dismal.

howie, keep him? yes. but on probation……….

bobo-stated two issues

end the war
yes, now. i won’t elaborate for now.

the politics-i think he understands the politics just fine….he was an admiral in charge of budgets–the accountants know politics better than anybody, my dad was a corporate accountant, one with a conscience, they know it all…

and it’s ok to hit me here but, i think that most of us don’t really understand the politics involved in things, as much as we like to think we do, we don’t really have a clue in how things are arranged and accomplished and what it takes to get a bill through….what little i have been exposed to has opened my eyes in what it takes, and it is a herculean effort…tantrums from commenters don’t help and all of you who do that lose me in your arguments no matter how articulate, once i see a tantrum coming, i know you are no longer listening (learning) and not worth my time.

so get with it, plant your seeds and watch them grow…..plant a good seed….but if you’re just throwing dirt, you aren’t creating anything good in my book.