I never know when wingnut kabuki ensues because they're seriously stupid or because think everybody else is, but Peggy Noonan ought to stick to giving knuckle jobs to the Pope. Now that Bush is officially an abject failure, as Digby has long predicted, he has "failed conservatism," this time over immigration:
The president has taken to suggesting that opponents of his immigration bill are unpatriotic–they "don't want to do what's right for America." His ally Sen. Lindsey Graham has said, "We're gonna tell the bigots to shut up." On Fox last weekend he vowed to "push back." Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff suggested opponents would prefer illegal immigrants be killed; Commerce Secretary Carlos Gutierrez said those who oppose the bill want "mass deportation." Former Bush speechwriter Michael Gerson said those who oppose the bill are "anti-immigrant" and suggested they suffer from "rage" and "national chauvinism."
Why would they speak so insultingly, with such hostility, of opponents who are concerned citizens? And often, though not exclusively, concerned conservatives? It is odd, but it is of a piece with, or a variation on, the "Too bad" governing style. And it is one that has, day by day for at least the past three years, been tearing apart the conservative movement.
I suspect the White House and its allies have turned to name calling because they're defensive, and they're defensive because they know they have produced a big and indecipherable mess of a bill–one that is literally bigger than the Bible, though as someone noted last week, at least we actually had a few years to read the Bible. The White House and its supporters seem to be marshalling not facts but only sentiments, and self-aggrandizing ones at that. They make a call to emotions–this is, always and on every issue, the administration's default position–but not, I think, to seriously influence the debate.
"Why would they speak so insultingly, with such hostility, of opponents who are concerned citizens?" Good question, Peggy, glad you raised it. It certainly must come as a shock to those who have been applauded for their bigotry within a party that has fueled its ascendency with hatred of anyone who can't check the "white Christian male" box:
Why have Republicans found themselves on the point of this wedge? Because in the two decades since the last major immigration measure, the makeup of the national Republican Party and the demography of the country have both changed dramatically. In 1986, radio talkers like Limbaugh could not harness the power of millions of devoted daily listeners to bring national Republican political figures to heel, and the Hispanic vote share was negligible. Twenty years later, Limbaugh is the most popular talk radio host in America, and there are millions of Spanish-speaking immigrants living alongside Rush's listeners in the kinds of red states where Spanish was rarely heard before. At the same time, the Latino vote has grown to 10 million. The GOP is now forced to choose between its reliable base of close-the-border, English-only cultural whites and the rapidly growing bloc of swing-voting Hispanics.
The demographic winds explain why Karl Rove has been obsessed with corralling the Hispanic vote since he was the little-known sidekick of a would-be Texas governor. He made George Bush a uniquely successful candidate among Latino voters in both state and federal elections by embracing Hispanic culture and avoiding any whiff of anti-immigrant rhetoric. After Bush won a startling 40 percent of the Hispanic votes in 2004, double the GOP total from a decade earlier, the Democrats rightly panicked. The conventional wisdom among pollsters like Republican Matt Dowd — a former Democrat who admits he was attracted to Bush precisely because of the then-Texas governor's views about Hispanic assimilation — was that if Republicans could reach 40 percent of the Hispanic vote, they would be unbeatable, but if they sank below 30 percent, they would be in a world of electoral trouble. Sure enough, after many 2006 Republican congressional candidates ran nasty, anti-immigrant ads — some juxtaposing the faces of Hispanic immigrants with Islamic terrorists — the GOP share of the Hispanic vote collapsed to 29 percent in the midterm cycle. "The Republicans have to choose if they want to be a 21st-century party, and right now they are making decisions like they're a 20th-century party," says the New Democrat Network's Rosenberg. His organization took many of those attack ads and rebroadcast them on Univision to remind Hispanics which of the two parties had their best interests in mind.
Despite the cognitive dissonance it must be causing the knuckle draggers, Bush's position makes perfect sense with regard to the only principle the wingnuts really respect: power. If they can't tame the bigotry of their base, the GOP faces death by demographic. Peg-a-loon can indulge in whatever revisionist history she wants to in order to justify whatever absurd notion is flying through the cobwebbed belfries of her mind, but that really is the bottom line.
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Nice work, Jane, as always. You are quite good with a filet knife.
zed?
Fitz!
What’s a knuckle job?
Peggy must have missed McCain on O’Reilly.
Jane, did you see Alison Stewart yesterday?
Dang! Missed by a hair.
Nice article, Jane! Apparently, having spent 6 years relying on a white supremicist base, and when almost every applicant for his position is pandering feverishly to that base, BushRove chooses this moment to pick a fight about immigration that is causing his own supporters to start talking about impeachment? Well, hubris has never been in short supply in the Bush White House.
Anyway, emptywheel is snooping around again, turning over rocks and such at The Next Hurrah. Go, Marcy, go!
Bob in HI
The hate bites you in the ass again, huh Chimpy?
When a political party moves from Abraham Lincoln to George W. Bush, perhaps it has outlived its usefulness and should cease to exist.
Bush, Rove, and people like Noonan created the Republican hate machine and now they are crying about this situation. Noonan might figure out that George don’t need her, he’s got Karen Hughes.
I think the immigration deal angers Conservatives as much as the Iraq vote angered the left. There was a political deal made that a) President Bush is not running for reelection (22nd Amendment) and b) GOP candidates and even Peggy Noonan could feel free to run from the position while passing the bill on and then letting the next GOP nominee enforce the bill. So you ARE seeing a dispute between the more Buchanan aspects of the GOP and the Bush neocon wing which has really always been there (since 1992). But that will sort itself out in 2008. In the meantime the President will get his bill because the Democrats also want an immigration bill.
Peg-a-loon!
This is getting kinda fun.
Peggy Noonan Talking Doll says:
“Math is hard!”
Repeated from a couple of threads down but ALWAYS pertinent:
Note to self (and for others):
Do NOT under ANY circumstances get Jane Hamsher, Christy Hardin Smith, or Marcy T. Wheeler p*sse’d at me or yourselves. You WILL regret having done so.
Bullseye, as per usual.
Reminds me of MrsK8 who prays that evil people will be trapped by their own deeds.
Dover Bitch @ 4
I saw this and found it interesting. One reason is the revelation (to me) that Ms. Stewart considers herself to be a “Black”, or at least to identify with that group. Must prove how clueless I am, because it had never occurred to me to think about her as such. To me, the racial label was just…so…irrelevant… except that she evidently doesn’t think so. At any rate, she has enough racial sensitivity to recognize Orally’s race-baiting as such, and to call him on it. Good for her!
I miss Keith, but Alison is as smart, sassy, attractive, and snark-capable as any. She leaves Katie Couric in the dust. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: MEET THE NEW FACE OF AMERICA! Bill Orally and all your race-baiting friends: you’re dead meat.
Time to go to work. Back later.
Bob in HI
I just hope the Dems have the sense to push for the bill (improving it along the way) and don’t get suckered by believing that the outrage of the GOP anti-immigrant base is anything to worry about. Republicans deliberately stirred this up in ‘06; immigration wasn’t on voters’ radar until they did.
If the Dems get on board with this, whether it passes or not, it should continue to fracture the Republicans and cement the position of immigrants as Democratic voters.
AZ Matt – I am still trying to think of a come back to your El Paso suggestion.
I am so enjoying this. All those who don’t agree with the boy king being called America-haters. Wonder how they like it.
LibertyLee @ 10
Hmmm, I think you are right. Bush spends his “political capital” (such as it is), the GOP gets the bill they need and the 08s can run from it.
And I agree, there are a lot of parallels between the right/immigration and the left/war right now.
OT, looks like they found Senator Secrecy…and of course he is a Gambino.
http://newsblogs.chicagotribun…..maske.html
Gnome de Plume @ 18
Well, since Bush and the rest of his bunch like to be isolated I think locking them into the Alamo and throwing away the key would be a good idea.
Jane Hamsher @ 20
Absolutely. They’re all talking about Nicolas Sarkozy distancing himself from Jacques Chirac. For example, Newt in The New Yorker. Immigration gives some of them a chance to use that. However, guys like McCain can’t really go there and he needs to distance himself more than any of them.
Has anybody heard what Fred Thompson is saying about the bill? I can’t remember hearing or reading anything from him about it.
We all should use that line next time neocons slam us as “angry” and “hating America.”
Thanks, Peggy!
Jon Kyl was whining on the evening news last evening…. he has a big booboo because the wingers have been nasty to his Senate staff. He stated he is learning new words (ya right).
The Repugs planned and used this hatred, they ratcheted it up over and over again. Gave creditability to the Minutemen [insert money grubbing unaccountable all for show idiots] and then you have McCain and Kyl wondering why the AZ winger community has gone off the deep end. Hell our craziest state rep Russel Pierce is demanding McCain resign – over the immigration bill and NOT showing up to work.
My pet peeve ….. NO ONE is illegal…. that is degrading and dehumanizing. They are undocumented human beings.
Dover Bitch @ 23
Thompson opposes the bill to some degree.
http://www.newsmax.com/archive…..shtml?s=ic
katymine, isn’t it incredible how a person like Lou Dobbs, who spends half his time complaining that our government — the greatest in the world — can’t do anything right, then turns around and blames undocumented workers for ignoring the rule of law and gripes that their governments should be taking care of their problems?
Dover Bitch @ 23
Thompson supports the concept while opposing the bill as a “disaster”.
See http://www.voanews.com/english…..-voa52.cfm
Dover Bitch @ 23
It would be extremely interesting to learn more about what Fred thinks on a lot of issues except for the fact, that as a former prosecutor, he seems to be sanctioning perjury in Federal investigations. But I see him as a Republican Obama, it is hard to know what he really thinks about a lot of things.
Dover Bitch @ 23
I am not sure I understand. Are you saying Bush is pulling one over on his hard core supporters? Like the Dems did with us over Commander Guy’s blank check?
AZ Matt @ 22
Nooooo. The DRT (Daughters of the Republic of Texas)would shoot you. Besides, San Antonio is too nice of a place. Also too humid this year. How about Death Valley?
Woodhall Hollow @ 29
How is he the Republicans Obama? I don’t see hi trying to build bridges to the Dems? If anything, he expects his TV celebrity to make that bridge. Nothing he says on the campaign trail. Not yet anyway.
Oh yeah, “the White House and its allies have suddenly, surprisingly, and with no prior precedent turned to name calling.” I might’ve added a few words in there. Where was this woman when anyone who disagreed with Bush on anything were “unpatriotic” or “supporting the terrorists” or “cut and runners” or etc., etc., etc.?
Twisted Martini @ 21
Oh the f*ckin’ irony of that! When is that pu**y up for election again. IIRC it’s not until ‘10? AZMatt you lucky devil you….[sorry]
LibertyLee @ 28
Can Fred do that? I mean doesn’t he contradict himself, that is, if you are providing accurate statements?
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 30
Yes…and no. President Bush and Karl Rove have always had a Hispanic strategy that was not popular with the Conservative pro-enforcement base. He and McCain (who is not terribly popular with the Base as much as he’s trying to get that way with his support of the Iraq war) are basically with Ted Kennedy trying to ram this bill down the throat of the rest. John Kyl and McCain’s sidekick Lindsay Graham are giving them cover. SO…Bush has always been for it, the base has not, and Bush saw the Iraq vote as a bargaining chip to have the Congress critters do against the bidding of just about everyone on both sides and do what they thought was best regardless of everyone else’s views.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 30
I’m saying that the GOP will benefit if they don’t push away a huge and growing voting bloc. And individual candidates will benefit by distancing themselves from the losers currently occupying the White House (and they all know this).
So it’s a win-win for some of them to a certain degree. I doubt they orchestrated it as such. For some of them, it’s a lose-lose.
Can you just imagine what would happen say next Monday, if all the immigrants suddenly stopped working? Who would take care of us?
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 29
If you read around the conservative blogs, it is clear that almost all of them feel quite betrayed. So why would he do it?
I think I know–Big Business, who loves the cheap labor. Wall street/Libertarian/Thomas Freidman types have been demanding a bill like this for a long time. It is not to their advantage to be denied cheap, inexaustible Mexican labor (lot of the work they do simply won’t be done by people born here), but they are sick of having to break the law themselves in order to get it. My .02.
kdh22 @ 35
Aha, we can but bestow a niche-name for him:
Sir Facing-both-ways or perhaps Janus?
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 31
He is a fresh face, he looks good, sounds good, etc, etc….like Obama, he is largely a creation of the media. And who the hell knows what he really thinks about a lot of issues, like immigration, for instance.
Kyl was relected in 2006 – AZ former State Democratic Party chair ran against him – Jim Pederson.
His FIRST TeeVee commercial – Pederson did the carnal sin….. called it the “Democrat” Party. AND would NEVER come out against the Iraq War. Yep, DLC through and through. AND lost.
kdh22 @ 35
He might pull a muscle or something trying to spin like that, but that’s never stopped him from spinning in the past. Just listen to him talk about being tough on crime, then turn around and beg for leniency for Libby.
Gnome @ 31
How about Area 51? As a landing-zone marker, or something. Or the nuclear test site (they need to see what nukes really do, anyway). Death Valley has some scenic points I’d rather not see littered up.
Brisingamen @ 40
Aha, we can but bestow a niche-name for him:
Sir Facing-both-ways or perhaps Janus?
Either sounds accurate to me. You pick…hehehe.
If we have an “immigrant problem” it’s our own fault. We support third world corrupt governments, basically steal third world resources and buy low priced products from places like WalMart produced in third world sweatshops.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 32
This is confusing… You are implying that Obama is building bridges to the republicans (how else to read this)? And, Woodhall Hollow, I agree with you (if I understand correctly) that it’s hard to figure out Obama’s position on lots of issues. More than ever, we need Gore!
-MS
kdh22 @ 45:
I must confess I have a love of multi-level puns…
Actually, the bill is a disaster and needs major work. I can’t believe many dems support it in it’s present form. I only know the highlights:
-$5000 fine (is that per person or per family)
-Must return to their original country to touch base
-Them wait to come back legally
Oh, yeah. That’s really going to work.
kdh22 @ 35
Sure, many Conservatives respect immigrants because they are hardworking taxpayers and believe in the old Reaganite amnesty. That cracked with the Buchanan types. The GOPers are split between anti-foreign sentiment and pro-Business viewpoints; the Dems are split between strong pro-Union who fear wage lowering and pro-immigrant because they think Hispanics will be Democrat voters. Both parties can call the bill a disaster–it IS terribly bureaucratic and like TSA and everything else will HAVE to be repaired–but still favour the principle and pass it. So, Fred can essentially take the position that THIS bill won’t work, but since he’s not voting on it, blame McCain et. al. for letting a bad bill pass.
Fred Thompson is rich, white, Republican and male. He can do what he wants.
lil’ typo
cognative
cognitive
Solai @ 49: Doesn’t the bill also require them to be fluent in English too?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 44
Eggzactly! While our government (both parties are equally at fault here) gets behind treaties like NAFTA which make it harder for workers in poor countries to mobilize for better wages and working conditions. Because the truth is, that given their druthers, most of these immigrants would rather stay at home, that is if they had a hope in hell of creating a decent life for themselves and their families.
I love it when the Republikans are caught up in a bind of their own making.
Peggy needs her Ronnie Ray-Ken to make sense out of things… Like the olden days… It’s a Barbie World for Big Tent Rebushlickens…
Now it’s: “you can bomb, you can invade…you can have Baghdad as yours…” Ooh Republi-Kens you’re soooo strong! And we’re just getting started!
P J Evans @ 44
Yes. That is the right place. Matt? Would you agree? (I only chose Death Valley because of the name and the heat. I was also thinking about the ground zero spot in NM where the first A-bomb was tested.)
Brisingamen @ 52
Checking
LibertyLee @ 50
What is your personal feeling about the bill, Lee? Which type of Republican are you — the anti-foreigner kind or the pro-business kind? Or, like the majority of ‘Republicans’, the stressed out kind because you are both anti-foreign and pro-business?
LibertyLee @ 50
Any way you slice it, McCain is going to get screwed on this, isn’t he? No amount of sucking up to the base is going to repair this. And Thompson gets a pass.
Michael in Park Slope @ 47
For me, Obama at the MSNBC debate was disastrous. ‘Specially when he talked about nukes, and Iran, was it? He is a conservative democrat but he doesn’t want to say it too loud. But then again, what can you expect from the guy who showed all the support and love in the world for Joe Liarman, and practically nothing for Ned Lamont.
Woodhall Hollow @ 39 says:
My bold – May I disagree with you to this extent. It is NOT that the Mexicans and other immigrants do work that simply won’t be done by people born here. It is that people born here would and will demand to be paid market-based, liveable wages which the corporatocracy refuses to do when they can hire people here illegally at wages far below what they would have to pay citizens and get away with it because those hired are in no position to complain. Rather like legalized slavery in many respects for the businesses.
Solai @ 49
You left out the really interesting part: the punitive fine that’s being called ‘reparations’. Apparently the people who are pushing it think that the undocumented never pay any taxes or fees, and should do that, in spades, before they can come in legally. At the same time as they’re pushing this, they’re complaining that the undocumented are committing identity theft by using SSNs that haven’t been issued to them legally.
(Um, seems to be a contradiction there, guys. SSDI is a big chunk out of a paycheck, alogn with income tax, and if you have a number on the W4, it’s coming out automagically. But maybe none of y’all that are pushing this has ever filled out a W4.)
Jane Hamsher @ 59
McCain is in a no-win position on this. And Section 502 provides for English Speakers on the path to citizenship.
From CNN:
OK, gotta run. Am meeting up with an old friend who is in Austin for a job prospect. He has become a big time political consultant (Did the Tester campaign). I am dying to know who he is pitching in our state. Could be very exciting, for me at least.
mui @ 61
With you all the way (hope I’ve not been misunderstood)!
-MS
The devil’s deal made with the southern voter years ago was that the Republican Party would remain Jim Crow Lite for their loyalty and so it has been especially since Johnson’s Great Society. This huge voting block base hasn’t really changed their attitudes, they just practice it differently out of fear of Federal Law.
The Jim Crow Lite crowd is more devoted to its entrenched attitudes than to any political party. Just as they threw away the Dixiecrat controlled Democratic Party, they will do the same to the Republican Party.
Every time I return to the South I say Jim Crow Lite and the Dixiecrats are alive and well. They are just manifested differently. The costume changed. The heart has not. I also want to acknowledge those brave souls there who fight the good fight of justice and fairness every day. They are there, however, few and far between.
dakine01 @ 60
My bold – May I disagree with you to this extent. It is NOT that the Mexicans and other immigrants do work that simply won’t be done by people born here. It is that people born here would and will demand to be paid market-based, liveable wages which the corporatocracy refuses to do when they can hire people here illegally at wages far below what they would have to pay citizens and get away with it because those hired are in no position to complain. Rather like legalized slavery in many respects for the businesses.
That is what I meant! The low wages being the main point in the minds of big biz. Whether here or in factories set up on the other side of the border.
solai@49
“-$5000 fine (is that per person or per family)
-Must return to their original country to touch base
-Them wait to come back legally
Oh, yeah. That’s really going to work.”
Could not agree more. As I have brought up before, the $5000 requirement is a joke; these people by and large won’t have that kind of cash available.
On top of that, who in their right mind will “trust” the US to let them back in the country?
Trust. Yet another casualty of this administration.
Hadn’t considered all the political implications of this bill. Hope it doesn’t fire up the republican base.
Woodhall Hollow @ 68
My problem was with your statement repeating the meme that the work being done by the immigrants would NOT be done by native born. By framing it that way, you are subconsciously providing support to the corporatists…
The list of neocons/Repubs who cheered BushCheney at every step but who now claim “he was never one of us,” is becoming very long. We should hand out Bush mirrors so they can see the enemy clearly.
Solai @ 48
Oh, yeah. That’s really going to work.
Here’s what I’m worried about as much as anything:
Michael in Park Slope @ 66
No, not misunderstood. That’s my vindictiveness piping in, making me want to type, punch hit o.k. I am genuinely appalled by anyone who talks of nukes and Iran, but I am now annoyed more than ever at the establishment Dems, especially seeing HoJoe’s fine antics in Iraq. Schumer, Hillary, Obama, blech!
Woodhall Hollow @ 39
‘Big Business’ already has the cheap labor with the status quo and NO enforcement. Jane’s right, this is about votes.
Is it per person??? Family of 5 = $25,000????
scarecrow @ 71
This is good news for Republicans because…
/Adam Nagourney
dakine01 @ 70
I agree. I was just being lazy in my typing. I didn’t mean to imply that the native born wouldn’t do the work at all, rather they won’t do it for low wages. Sort of like the whole issue of union vs non-union construction work (huge issue here in NYC wrt to safety and workman’s comp issues, these days, as close to 30 non-unionized workers have died in construction accidents in the last year). The native born will do the work, but they want and expect to get a living wage, benefits and safety regs that are enforced.
P J Evans @ 62
PJ Evans, the complaints I’ve heard (from health care professionals) aren’t “they aren’t paying taxes.” It’s “They are filling up our emergency rooms, hospitals, and welfare offices and are using funds and resources that should be going to our own citizens.”
FWIW
http://www.theagitator.com/index.php
I am loving it.
A lot of the Bush apologists are pissed off over this and are crying like jilted lovers.
Feeling a little screwed over honey?
Welcome to our world,we have been putting up with this kind of shit for 6 years.
That his staunchest supporters are publicly crying in their beer?
PRICELESS.
In some quarters the hatred directed toward immigrants is palpable. And the view is this hatred cuts across economic, political, ethnic and social lines.
Solai @ 64
Okay, here’s a quiz: you have the tree choices above: When you report, how many years do you claim you have been in the US illegally?
*shudder* that must have been ugly.
Dover Bitch, That’s scary. This bill is from a Democratic Senate?
Cozumel @ 74
Yeah, but with the GOP base insisting on “enforcement” and the mass arrests that have been made recently (to satisfy said base), it is not surprising that Big Business wants some action in Washington to prevent them from loosing said cheap labor. The GOP is really caught between a rock and a hard place on this one. Or between Wall Street and Jim Crow Lite as a commenter called up upthread.
Bustednuckles @ 80
I would simply advise you not to count your chickens before they are hatched. I rather suspect that the majority here will support the Democrat nominee; and the majority of the GOP base will support the GOP nominee; the test will be who slices off enough states to win 270 electoral votes.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 81
I wonder how much a percentage of the population it is though.
Woodhall Hollow @ 78
Well, we all get a little lazy in our wording sometimes… :})
Those who run for national office are hardly representative. These folks are usually rich, white, male, well connected, pro-business, and have a stake in maintainig the status quo.
I may be naive but I think we ought to try to deep six this bill or better yet make it such that the repgs in the Senate will do so. I find the bill really offensive in that simply looks good while continuing to punish and exploit the victims that were created when NAFTA destroyed the peasant economy in Mexico. As bad as it sounds I think people would be better off waiting two years for a decent bill and working really hard for a congress and president that will put one through. I worry that if we accept this crap now, it will be much harder to get it revised in 2008. I think Kennedy is getting suckered just like he did with No Child Left Behind. I am disappointed he didn’t learn from that.
mui @ 83
It really was. I usually listen and I had to switch to Glenn Beck because of her vitrio.
Logging off. See everyone later
Twisted Martini @ 20
Kyl. Of course.
Woodhall Hollow @ 85
By ‘enforcement’ I mean employers ; )
Totally
scarecrow @ 81
Another quiz: how many years does the one who employed you while you were illegal have to pay the back payroll taxes they skipped because they were trying to skirt the system?
LibertyLee @ 91
You mean one wingnut is more tolerable than the other? That’s refreshing.
Solai @ 83
It’s terrifying. It’s the no-fly list, except it’s the no-work list. Good luck getting off it. And while you’re unable to earn a living, there’s no judicial review and no way to recoup your losses. I can’t believe anybody could accept this as is.
This immigration deal is a careful-what-you-wish-for issue completely. The nutjobs on the right have to decide which freaks them out more… immigrants or a government in control of where and when we can all work.
Remember, there is no enumerated right to work or take up a particular trade in the Constitution. And because they’ve been putting people like Alito on the court — people who think that it’s a big deal that “abortion” isn’t written in the text — we are getting a judiciary that is disinclined to worry about rights that aren’t expressly granted.
Cozumel @ 92
Got it. And notice that no one has rounded up any managers when plants were recently raided. Rather the problem for Big Biz is that such raids cause massive production disruptions.
scarecrow @ 82
There will most likely be a requirement to prove how long in the US by providing old electrical bills or something of that nature. Like people hold on to old bills that long (unless you’re like I am and hold on to old pay stubs, unused checks, bank statements, etc).
Peterr @ 96
Peterr — are you saying there are offsetting incentives that will encourage people to tell the truth? Or did I misunderstand you comment?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 46
Shhhhhhhhh . . . don’t let that get out. We’re not supposed to understand the corporatist root of the problem, that’ll just confuse everybody and they might think twice about knee-jerk scapegoating the immigrants for all our woes. It’s just easier that way, trust me.
LibertyLee @ 91
I have never been so grateful as when I found out I could go back to listening to one of my favorite radio stations part of the day. They’d gotten rid of Grim Drek and Quack Laura, and put local hosts in their place.
Now if they’d just deep-six Mush Dimbulb and InS(eanH)annity’s programs…
so – is the immigration bill good wedge politics but bad policy?
that’s what it sounds like…. although i confess, i haven’t read it yet – so i’m hoping to be corrected by more knowledgable firepups.
brisingamen @ 79
I don’t deal with people in that area enough to hear those complaints. FWIW, all the people I’ve met collecting aid were legal (either citizens or green card). Some of them weren’t strictly eligible for what they were collecting.
I suspect a lot of undocumented go to emergency rooms because they don’t have insurance and don’t know any doctors who will take them without it; a lot of them are afraid to put in for aid because la migra will find out.
—
okay, humor for the day:
Q: Why does the tachyon cross the road?
A: It’s already on the other side.
How many of these anti-immigrant folks have parents, or grandparents or great grandparents who came from the ‘old country’?
selise @ 105
If you intend on reading it, you’d better block out a month on your calendar, at least. It’s huge, and was intended to be so.
Ahhhh, nothing like watching us descend into further wingnut lunacy while immigrants in France are denied the right to wear clothing according to their beliefs and in Russia you better hope that no one mistakes you for a Chechen…avoid the tanning beds before coming over.
Just finished Lenin’s “What Is To Be Done?” for the fourth time and even in the cradle of the revolution I still can’t answer that question.
Woodhall Hollow @ 54
am i wrong to wish for some good work on our messed up trade policy instead of the immigration kabuki?
‘cuz in a different economic climate… it might be easier to get the path to citizenship i’d like to see for all immigrants who want it.
Dover Bitch @ 37
But overall, isn’t it a lose-lose for the Republicans? As Jane said, the changing demographics are not advantageous to the old white man set any more.
selise @ 107
Yes! And of course, no one is talking about it seriously. Or ever really has, in my memory. It’s like the one sacred cow that members of both parties get down on their knees to worship. NAFTA was a tragedy–and was, remember, negotiated and promoted and signed by Clinton. There were a few on both sides of the aisle who tried to fight it–but they were treated like blithering idiots by the powers-that-be in both parties.
Cindy Sheehan’s selling her land in Crawford on e-Bay. Move America Forward wants to buy it. However, her sister says that’ll be “a cold day in hell.”
:)
WASHINGTON — In the past year, lawyers for President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney directed the Secret Service to maintain the confidentiality of visitor logs, declaring them to be presidential records.
The drive to keep secret the lists of visitors to the White House complex and Cheney’s home, the administration says, is essential to ensuring the president and vice president receive candid advice to carry out their duties. The decision made the logs exempt from a law requiring their disclosure to whoever asks to see them.
The latest part of the strategy emerged this week when the government disclosed a letter from Cheney’s counsel placing visitor logs for his personal residence on the Naval Observatory grounds in the category of presidential records.
James—
I think Lenin’s time to speak is over. He’s done enough damage in the world, and rather like the neocons here, does not get to go on the talk shows anymore.
Woodhall Hollow @ 111
once again – the DFHs were right.
scarecrow @ 99
I’m saying that employers who have been paying folks cash under the table for lo these many years likely owe back taxes as well as interest and penalties. If you employed me while I was illegal and I have to pay my back FICA taxes, then you have to pay your share of them as well.
I’d be shocked if the bill requires any back payments by former employers, however. Wouldn’t want to stifle the economy or anything.
EG,
Thanks for the belly laugh.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 112
Does this mean Jeff Gannon is going to be sleeping over at the White House again?
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 110
I suspect that once upon a time the GOP assumed that these undocumented immigrants would come here, work 15 to 20 years, and then return to their home country to retire. I’m not sure that they intended (then) for them to EVER become US citizens.
It does look like the GOP is digging its own grave on this issue.
New Libby thread (never got to do that before!)
Jane’s up with Moment of Truth — John Dean on Scooter’s date with Walton.
Peterr @ 116
The langauge, or legal burden if you will is Knowingly hire. Imagine if you got a speeding ticket and they had to prove you knowingly broke it (speed limit). NOT.GONNA.HAPPEN
Why would they speak so insultingly, with such hostility, of opponents who are concerned citizens?
Where was Noonan when folks who spoke against the Iraq war were being called anti-American and unpatriotic? Hell, it’s still happening. Welcome to our world.
But really, the immigration bill is awful.
We were wondering who was getting thrown under the bus next. Looks like the GOP wants to throw Bush under.
spinn @ 33
Gee – Peggy must have so anguished all of those decades when the mighty Wurlitzer’s wholly-owned Ron Arnold created the Wise Use movement for the timber/mining megacorps.
Accelerating the GOP’s shift from the party of Teddy R to the party of Watt.
You needed the Mountain West votes; your owners, the megacorps, needed the West itself.
Along with Arnold, you demonized and defamed US citizens working to keep US National Forests vertical for Americans.
And we were called Communists, faggots, pinkos, traitors.
By your disciplined, centralized propaganda office. And by the speeches you wrote and the strategies you devised, Peggy.
Cause we didn’t want to hand American lands and forests over to multinationals – we wanted our public land for our kids and their kids.
You were the real traitor, Peggy.
Your GOP spin machine broadcast the megacorps’ talking points through Arnold, turning “environmentalist” into an epithet in GOP-speak.
You were too fucking stupid and hypoctitical to recall Nixon supported the same modest protections Ronnie and Watt claimed were sociaist.
Your goal was to destroy the Endangered Species Act; your Wurlizter used threats of terroristic violence agianst local elected leaders to assist the megacorps’ assault on the ESA:
You and your GOP and your propaganda accused us of disloyalty and treachery because we loved and protected the lands of America.
And the whole time you utterly betrayed our Republic and our nation’s health.
Traitor.
Peggy, you are a deceitful, evil, tool.
And you were complicit in the progaganda for war crimes.
Winds are changing.
War crimes are for life, and the GOP will fall.
I’m gonna ck back later to see if Lee will answer my question wrt his Gooper orientation. [me @ 59] I’m not holding my breath.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 109
I think the bill, as is, is a lose-lose for everybody on Earth. But consider somebody like, apparently, Fred Thompson. He can run saying that the bill is disastrous. So he distances himself from the president and the bill (and he doesn’t even have to vote for or against it). Then, if the bill passes, the GOP avoids completely ostracizing a large voting bloc. So, they both win.
On the other hand, take McCain. He’s screwed. He has to vote for it (and he wants to). But the base won’t forgive him for it. And whatever gains the GOP would get for it won’t do him a lick of good.
But then again, this thing is so ill-conceived at present, I can’t imagine anybody really winning from it. If it passes, it won’t work and it will cause countless nightmares, in my opinion. I think everybody, on both sides, associated with this thing are going to look horrible in a few years if it becomes law.
Just my opinion. Vast federal databases of personal information and no-work lists — the clusterf**k DHS being in charge of who can work — makes me quiver.
kdh22 @ 45
Flip-flopper?
Surely this can be parodied as much as the Repugs parodied John Kerry’s “I voted against it after I voted for it”(?) regarding the war authorization.
BTW, did you mean “nick-name”? But “niche-name” kinda works, too, in a different way…
Bob in HI
All-for-himself Bush needs “guest workers” on his pig farm. To hell with Noonan and her ilk. He’s laughing out loud for all the times he’s suckered the Dems and for all the times he’ll sucker those who brung him to the party. Mad King George.
Solai @ 85
Meaning the DLC Senate?
Bob in HI
LibertyLee @ 92
Liberty,
I’m glad we have you to talk to. I tried listening to Glenn Beck once and could only stand it for about 30 seconds before my stomach started tying up in knots. Maybe its because every 10 seconds another ERROR! sign pops up in my mind, so that by the time a minute has elapsed, there are so many ERROR! signs bobbing and weaving all over the place that it no longer makes any sense to try to follow his so-called “reasoning.” I think its people like Glenn Beck that Al Gore had in mind when he wrote his latest book.
Bob in HI
Please, for my sanity, someone go read this.
http://www.spinnwebe.com/wp/20…..a-problem/
I’m just really cheesed off that Noonan’s all shocked and surprised that Bush & co. are using the same tactics on their conservative opposition that they’ve been using on liberals for years.
Brisingamen @ 80
Twenty-two years as a physician.
Eighteen in LA
Taught with LA County ER doc.
Trained in LA County Psych ER.
Years at UCLA
Ex-spouse at Cedars.
And the staff everywhere was a big melting-pot – from all over the world.
The health professionals I worked and trained with weren’t expressing the ugly racist nativist sentiments you relate.
Believe me.
I would have remembered – and so would they.
I don’t know where in the nation you are. If your statements are accurate, I’m so glad I’m not residing there.
Reminds me of the very racist boys from rural PA who were at my med school in Philly.
(Was it James Carville who described Pennsylvania as Pittsburg at on end and Philadelphia at the other with Alabama in the middle?)
Blergh.
Hi spinn -
If you refresh, my 126 on the Noonbot may help – at least you’re not alone!
kirk @ 134
One of my friends describes Ohio as the armpit of the universe, a state where people who miss their exit on the interstate will back up to get to it, and housewives worry about whose laundry is whiter. (He spent two years in east-central Ohio.)
I don’t know if that’s better or worse than central PA.
Hi PJ Evans
What did your friend do the 2 years he was in east central Ohio? Just wondering bc I live here, and my peers live nice lives, have degrees, don’t really care if their neighbors’ laundry is whiter, and know not to back up on a highway.
PJ–I know the area where your friend lived. It is more rural than the many non-conforming urban areas in the state.
kirk murphy @ 135
Oh, huh, yeah, we must’ve been writing about that at the same time.
Yeah. That all really irritates me.
Bob Schacht @ 129
I meant “niche” — a punning play on nick, as it can be read at least two ways…
NO NEW TAXES!!!