Emptywheel has a great bit of analysis on the Team Libby sentencing filing that everyone should read if they get a chance. But I wanted to home in on a small segment for a moment this morning — because it royally pissed me off. To wit:
Distinguished public servant. Generous mentor. Selfless friend. Devoted father. This is the rich portrait of Mr. Libby that emerges from the descriptions of him in the more than 160 heartfelt letters submitted to the Court on his behalf. The letter writers, who range from administrative assistants to admirals, neighborhood friends to former colleagues, Democrats to Republicans, bear witness to Mr. Libby’s character and patriotism. As detailed below, Mr. Libby’s accomplishments in the State Department, the Defense Department, and the Office of the Vice President demonstrate his extraordinary commitment to public service. His dedication to promoting freedom abroad and keeping American citizens safe at home is beyond question. Mr. Libby has also earned a reputation for treating people fairly and kindly and comforting those who are distressed. He has avoided the Washington limelight to focus on nurturing his young children. Even those who disagree vociferously with policies he supported while serving in the government believe his conviction is not characteristic of the life he has led.
A public servant at the highest levels of our national government, one who was intimately involved in crafting our national security strategies and military plans, who had the ear of Dick Cheney as his chief of staff and national security advisor, who worked daily with CIA briefers on national security threats…and who betrayed the covert status not just of Valerie Plame Wilson, but the entire network of CIA agents and assets working with Brewster Jennings and other cover operations over years and years of work with a few phone calls and breakfast tete-a-tetes. Yes, that just screams "dedication to promoting freedom abroad and keeping American citizens safe at home is beyond question."
What Scooter Libby did was nothing short of treasonous. And to portray him as some sort of decent guy who made a careless error without fully comprehending its ramifications — and downplaying the fact that it was multiple disclosures over a broad period of time in a concentrated, calculated effort by him and other top Bush Administration officials — at the most, is not only disingenuous but it also flies in the face of any acceptance of responsibility. And I hope Judge Walton takes this piece of character fluff filing for exactly what it is: a document filled with public relations spin, in which there is no expression of remorse or regret for wrongdoing other than allusions to how horrible it was that Mr. Libby was caught, tried and convicted by a jury of his peers.
At the least, I would expect Judge Walton to be disgusted that Team Libby would think him so easily manipulated that he would buy this dreck after having sat through all of the CIPA hearings and the lengthy trial testimony in this case. Shameful.
We are a nation of laws. They apply equally to the common criminal and the high-ranking government official criminal variety, plain and simple. But, in my mind at least, when you are so placed at the highest levels of government, you not only owe a fiduciary duty of care and commitment to the public good, but you also are charged with operating within the letter of the law — not just because you should, but also because you ought to lead by being the best example you could be.
And an obfuscating, obstructionist toady who serves to this day as the firewall between the truth and Dick Cheney — who refuses to be completely honest about his role and the role of others in this sordid mess — does not deserve any break in sentencing. Ted Wells' melodramatic puff piece filing aside, I. Lewis Libby has earned time behind bars, because he steadfastly refuses to acknowledge any remorse for his illegal actions, and because he has learned no lessons from this other than to maintain his obstructionist silence on the matter and have political cronies do the talking for him in an effort to strong-arm the court with their august credentials and connections.
I have no doubt that Mr. Libby is a husband and father and, having seen him and his wife together on numerous occasions now, it was pretty clear to me when I was in DC that she cares for him a great deal. But that is no basis on which to make a sentencing decision — and Judge Walton has been around the judicial block enough to know that. The devil, as they say, is in the details and in this particular case, the details that we learned about Libby — from witness after witness, is that he is a meticulous planner, who has a laser focus when something catches his attention.
And during the period in question, his attention was directed by his boss Dick Cheney, to whom he was and is fiercely loyal at the expense of any other consideration, to take that mouthy Joe Wilson down a peg or two, by whatever means were necessary including his wife. The way to prove this cleanly in court was Libby's testimony, and the investigators working with Fitzgerald knew this — and knew that Cheney was smart enough to have severely limited his exposure in this by restricting his conversations on this matter to Libby, and having tasked Libby to take things from there.
At the heart of all of this mess is a fundamental question: is a public official at that high level loyal to his political patron's interests, or the greater good of the nation, its national security, the rule of law and its Constitution? The answer in Libby's case is that he was willing to break the law and take the risk of being caught and paying a steep price for that to sustain his loyalty to Cheney above country.
As such, he should pay the price that any such public official ought to pay: to be sentenced in accordance with the law, with no allowance for leniency in the face of such a blatant disrespect for the legal process and the rule of law (unconscionable coming from a lawyer with his years of practice). Just like any other American citizen. I. Lewis Libby threw his reputation and his government service away at the behest of Dick Cheney. He lied repeatedly under oath, to federal investigators and before a sworn grand jury. He refused to acknowledge his full role and the facts behind it, and refuses to this day to accept responsibility or remorse for anything beyond being caught.
For that, he deserves a stiff sentence and an immediate remand to jail following sentencing. Any other defendant in his shoes, without all the fancy connections, would face the same — and should. Libby should be given no special treatment, because he has earned nothing less than that with his own behavior and his horrid choices. As an officer of the court, Libby knew better — and I hope that Judge Walton reminds him of that fact on Tuesday.
(Photo of devil graffiti via Snowrunner.)
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Christy!
Has any Dem publicly used the “treason” term to describe Libby?
Anyone connected to some Dems who can promote getting the word out there?
If for no other reason that to drive Bill O’Reilly into a frothing rage….
Don’t mean to be an ass, but “home in on” as opposed to “hone in on,” please.
Now to read the post. Happy Friday, all!
swag at 3 — Thanks — this one sort of flew off my fingers because it has been pissing me off for hours now. hate it when I make an obvious typo and don’t catch it. Much appreciated!
OT, from threat about Dem Sen. Nelson voting with Reps to keep torture going:
Just called Nelson’s office.
The number is (202) 224-5274.
Told the staffer that torture is profoundly un-American, and that Abu Ghareb destroyed America’s effectiveness in Iraq, and we are paying the price.
I urge FDLer’s to do the same.
I find the argument to be quite vexing. The RoveBush line has it that Libby was a great man, a servant of the nation, a lifelong patriot dedicated to his country.
The Wilsons? A couple of glory seeking liars who wanted to go on junkets to beautiful and exotic locales on the Federal governments’ dime. A couple of bureaucrats, pencil pushers……
Sickening.
-GSD
As always, you rock, Christy!
They just wanted to remind Judge Walton that in special cases, black IS white, and up IS down.
It didn’t come out in trial, and we’ll probably never hear about it, but there were many careers (if not lives) destroyed by Libby. Valerie could only hint at it in her testimony.
The spin doctors are taking advantage, as they always have, of the public’s ignorance of this kind of priveliged information. It’s sickening.
Great piece, Christy. Anger makes you write particularly well!
Whew!
A little heated there.
Don’t blame you either.
Libby is what is between us and the downing of a tyrant.
Cheney is behind all this and Mr. 13% should be out of office and on the docket right next to Scooter.
Treason. Lay it out there and run with it because thats exactly what it is.
Christy writes:
He didn’t swear an oath (in public at least) to Darth Cheney. He (and Cheney and Bush) swear an oath to defend and protect the CONSTITUTION of the United States of America. It is treason.
He probably is a nice guy, and has a cute nickname. Those who feed off the MSM won’t get any farther than that.
Wonderful analysis on this point, Christy. Libby was in a position in our government to really hurt this country & he did. Actions by government officials convicted of perjuring themselves & obstructing justice in a national security matter should be dealt w/severely not leniently, PR efforts by their defense team notwithstanding.
Sharon @ 8
Libby is a special case- the kind that should be used to set an example & deter anyone else in his position from doing what he so blythely did…
Christy Hardin Smith @ 4
Not that you need any defending but the M and N are side-by-side on the keyboard and this would not have been caught by spell check alone…
dakine01 @ 11
Amen.
GO CHRISTY!
So we could see Scooter marching off to the gallows- er jail- next week? Cool!!!
YES, and I don’t think most judges take kindly to being played for fools.
spurious @ 13
Nice guys don’t do crap like this.
What’s the current sentencing window? Fitz says three years and Libby says zero? There must be some guidelines. What’s a likely number?
My favorite part was how he’d be separated from his young children in their formative years, you know, kinda like most everyone serving in Iraq and Alfghanistan!
and that especially includes MOTHERS
mother!
Note to self (and for others):
Do NOT under ANY circumstances get Christy Hardin Smith, Jane Hamsher, or Marcy T. Wheeler p*sse’d at me or yourselves. You WILL regret having done so.
Well said Christy.
The answer in Libby’s case is that he was willing to break the law and take the risk of being caught and paying a steep price for that to sustain his loyalty to Cheney above country.
The message will only get through to the cheney/bush cabal if Lib has to “pay a steep price” and I would hope that Judge W. can see the need, at this moment and time in US history, for a that message to be sent. Besides I think he is none to thrilled about the attempted “manipulation” by the pigs during the trial
Such a great guy. Don’t we all want to have a beer with Scooter Libby? In the meantime, the total damage from his actions will probably never be publicly known. Heckuva job, Scooter.
-S
I will not be the least bit surprised when the MSM begins to portray Libby as a victim. After all so many “upstanding” officials and some military brass wrote such glowing comments on just what a great guy he is. I’m sure Benedict Arnold had his apologists as well.
Scoots is one of them goopers that it’s great ta have a beer with- he doesn’t beat his wife or kids- less’n the really NEED it- and he has never knocked of a convenience store- he probably goes ta church and keeps his lawn tidy- and he’s white- perfect citizen- cept fer bein a felon!
rwcole @ 21
I’m going to take a wild guess that it falls closer to three years than zero.
Somebody needs to call the Fire Department, cuz Christy is burning some shit DOWN!
I am certain that I don’t really need to say this, but I’m going to say it anyway: no, and I mean NO, prison rape references. It is not funny and, as a rape survivor myself, I will not tolerate them. Capice?
Christy Hardin Smith @ 31
Apologies.
EvilDrPuma @ 29
I believe the sentencing report (reach around) was recommending 15-21 months but leaning toward the Martha Stewart range (five months in facility, five months “home confinement”).
In sentencing Libby I believe Judge Walton will focus on the fact that as a licensed attorney Libby is a sworn officer of the court. In my mind this is what makes the crimes Libby was actually convicted of so serious and will lead to his being incarcerated.
Here’s wishing nothing but justice for Mr. Libby. Lots and lots of heaping doses of it. Such an upstanding guy deserves nothing less.
Well, if you’re correcting trivial typos “seen he and his wife” should be “him and his wife.”
This is part and parcel with the elements of the defense that were poorly constructed. There’s an element of “How dare they!!” that runs through this.
But they know that they don’t have much here, really. And now the fawning letters are gonna come out, which are going to be embarrassing as all get out, to Libby and to the letter-writers.
The theme of loyalty runs throughout this administration, and transforms what might be seen as a virtue into deceit and connivance. Time for some politicians who are a little less loyal, in the feudal sense.
old gold @ 34
It should definitely have some bearing.
dakine01 @ 33
that won’t satisfy me!
If he gets three- then he’s eligible for parole after 18 mos or so?
2 yr sentence- out in 1- that’s my guess- and he won’t start serving till appeals are exhausted- Clusterfuck saves him on the way out the door..with a pardon.
We need an “office” pool.
any chance that a letter or two of support would’ve been written by democrats (not the known-pseudo-variety like Conn. Joe)?
Elliott @ 39
I don’t think it’ll satisfy Walton either.
spurious @ 37
imo they have bastardized the virtue of loyalty just as they have those of “civility” and “bipartisanship.” I am very tired of hearing the word “loyalty” applied to these people.
Libby is never going to jail, not one minute. He will be pardoned during the appeals process. Why is this for sure, not probable? Bush has never had a self-perceived punishmnent or consequence in his life. Pardoning Libby is no different than never suffering any adverse consequence from DUI, D average at Yale with the reward of Harvard Business School, failed business ventures, executing Texas state prisoners or “relying” on George Tenet. There is no such thing as accountability in the soul or mind of Bush.
The fact that all these people who wrote letters on Libby’s behalf have important sounding c.v.’s has absolutely nothing to do with the likelihood that they are also evil, corrupt, greedy bastards. All the press sees any more is power and money.
EvilDrPuma @ 40
Here’s Jeralyn’s analysis from TalkLeft yesterday
EvilDrPuma @ 27
I hope it falls to the max, at least the max requested by Fitz. Of course, more would be better; maybe put the fear of Walton in some of those other loyal minions.
If nothing else, this little snippet would seem likely to get under Walton’s skin. For one thing, it would not be a stretch to imagine that he sends parents of young children away to prison fairly routinely. And the picture we got of his behavior during the trial was fair from being fair or comforting. It wasn’t so long ago that the same rethugs who wrote these talking points were complaining about the “criminilization of politics” — that is in the hard-scrabble world of DC realpolitik, Joe Wilson’s wife was fair game, and so what if she worked at the CIA.
I have a hard time believing that Wells and Jeffress crafted this stuff on their own, and supports the feeling that I had while following the trial that Libby and Comstock are micro-managing almost every little thing. And not listening very carefully (if at all) to counsel.
Redd–Are consensual prison sexual acts OK?
Send him to…Detroit!
it is going to be devilish good fun to find out who wrote those letters.
OT
Labor Department figures are out. The economy added 157,000 jobs in May. This is being touted as a good number and showing strength in the economy since it is considerably higher than April’s abysmal 80,000 increase. The real story remains how the numbers are massaged. 180,000 jobs a month would mean we were treading water. 200,000 would signal real expansion.
As it is, construction hires were flat and manufacturing continues its inexorable decline with a further loss of 19,000.
Worker’s wages were up 3.8%. Inflation was 2% but doesn’t take into account gas prices so workers probably lost ground in May.
Given the lousy 0.6% first quarter growth, this economy is just muddling along.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06…..ref=slogin
Christy Hardin Smith @ 30
Thank you. Rape is not only reprehensible under any circumstance, but wishing it upon enemies makes one akin to sgt Graner and the others at Abu Ghraib. We can all be way, way better than that.
oddmommy @ 43
The likes of Bush and Cheney value loyalty the same way organized criminals value loyalty–and the resemblance hardly ends there. You’re right, every “value” they exhibit is perverted and bastardized to serve the crimes they commit.
EvilDrPuma @ 42
Now that I like to hear!
Twisted Martini @ 47
Ugh. Like we don’t already have enough corrupt and arrogant Republicans in this state that need to be spanked…
EvilDrPuma @ 19
It’s a perversion of nice. A nice traitor.
Jeralyn:
“My prediction at this juncture: The Government loses on its sentencing arguments for heavier guideline calculations, the Court finds at least one departure ground and Libby gets a split sentence of 10 months, with 5 spent in prison and 5 on home detention.”
Irving Louis should be grateful for whatever jail sentence Walton hands down.
Don’t doubt for a minute that there may be a veteran clandestine officer out there somewhere who specializes in “perfect accidents”.
6 months at Abu Gahrab and 6 months at Guantanamo and 6 months public sdrvice helping rebuild New Orleans
The “alternate reality” these weasels live in continues to astonish all of sound mind.
Why, Ward Cleaver never went to jail, so Scoots doesn’t deserve to either. After all, June would be heartbroken…”He’s so like an uncle to Wally and the Beav.”
No matter how many wailing missives to the Judge are sent by Repugs to “Hug a Weasel for Jeebus”, why even Eddie has no stomach this dreck.
I have generally found that the inevitable “prison rape” jokes tend to have a noticeable racist tinge to them too.
General rule of thumb, rape not funny. Racism, ditto.
-GSD
Thank You, Christy.
Indeed, the chilling effect alone upon our trust in the judicial system would likely freeze hell over, once and for all … bush.co. has not simply chipped away at the rule of law, justice and the American way, these scoundrels have been jack hammering them for six excruciating years … to the pokey with Scooter – whose aspens are turning now, baby?
Excuse my edit, but that is the unmodified and unvarnished truth — and when ANY Republican says that lil’ Scooter didn’t commit a crime, they are endorsing TREASON.
Fred Thompson is a LIAR, who endorses those who betray our country, for the greed and power of the GOP.
Fred Thompson endorses TREASON.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 29
FWIW, the mods also do not look favorably on comments that include references to spouses and children. Let’s keep our focus on those who actually did the crime.
Christy are there any monetary fines involved in a criminal case of this magnitude, i.e costs to the taxpayer this trial incurred. Am probably grasping at straws but it strikes me as unconscienable that a criminal trial and conviction of this magnitude ought not be underwritten by the American people.
Rayne @ 54
That’s an old Kentucky Fried Movie reference…they are doing a send-up of Bruce Lee’s Enter the Dragon and the head baddie says that to one of his minions as punishment.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076257/quotes
So Jeralyn thinks he’ll get five months in the can- and Clusterfuck could wipe even that out. Seems sort of non-satisfying doesn’t it?
rwcole @ 46
Is there some reason that I should know about that you’ve decided to push my buttons this morning? Because I really wasn’t kidding around with what I said.
Wow!
Libby needs an immediate sentence (no time to “get affairs in order”), a serious sentence and in a serious jail. Not a Club Fed. Because he will be pardoned in a year or so by Bush, so make his serious punishment start now.
Redd–Wasn’t tryin to push your buttons- sorry.
Check out the film “Downfall” which explores the perversion of loyalty. No doubt there are the beginnings of a bunker mentality with this regime.
Twisted Martini @ 64
Oh. Okay. I’m not certain I ever watched KFM, no wonder I missed the reference.
My point stands, though. Ugh. Libby AND DeVos in the same state at the same time? Blecchhh…
GSD @ 61
Okay, this pisses me off. If you can find the slightest shred of evidence that my remark had a racist intent, present it now. If not, apologize.
I’m not holding my breath for anything regarding Libby’s sentencing…zilch. Blame Enron, Watergate, Iran-Contra, etc..
If Bush announced tomorrow that Libby’s conviction would be waived so that he could serve as President of the World Bank, I wouldn’t even blink.
Call me cynical, but there is no “Rule of Law” for the Elite Criminal Class.
rw at 68 — It’s just a really sensitive subject on my end of things. And for a lot of people who read here, to be honest. Having represented criminal defendants and also sent them away to jail as a prosecutor, I was always very cognizant of what they could be facing — and so were they. It is not an easy subject, and it is one of those few things about which I cannot joke.
Woodhall Hollow @ 45
Cheney. And Rove.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 29
I have always been bothered by that stuff. Beyond just the soap-on-a-rope / buttfuck jokes, more generally, we take people who have demonstrated — and been convicted for — a might-makes-right ethos, and to “correct” them, we put them into prison environments where the law of the jungle is omnipresent. We forget that “you are sent to prison as punishment, not for punishment.”
And yet we are surprised when street criminals come outa the joint more violent than when they entered.
But, hey, we can’t “coddle” these perps.
.
Team Libby’s filing, I know I’ve heard that language somewhere before. Where was it?
Twisted Martini @ 47
Isn’t that just hilarious. Send him to a city that has been the victim of Republican anti-urban policies and boneheaded NAFTA legislation. Why not shit on Detroit, the Republicans certainly have.
EvilDrPuma @ 72
Also worth noting that even if you can’t see the racist tinge, there is more than a whiff of homophobia in such “jokes.” (quoted in my book because they are not funny and do not qualify as jokes)
Redd–OK.
“He has avoided the Washington limelight to focus on nurturing his young children.” Oh, paleeze.
That whole gooey, sugary eye-rolling thing was completely over the top. Republicans love phony fawning.
Woodhall Hollow @ 80
Okay, enough. I will not tolerate these accusations, and if the moderators here intend to allow them, I will be gone.
Woodhall Hollow @ 78
Since prisons are not co-ed it sort of more than whiff, ya think?
Take a deep breath and lets get back on the topic, shall we?
Hugh @ 78
Thanks for the grin this evoked, Hugh, I needed one this a.m. after re-reading Team Libby’s tripe…
Bustednuckles @ 84
I will not take a deep breath. I expect apologies.
Twisted Martini @ 64
Who can forget the tournament participants?
Long Wang
Hung Well
and
Enormous Genitals
Busted at 82 — Thanks for that.
Bluetoe @ 71
yes, that’s an excellent film. Someone said here a while back that Blockbuster is gonna take it out of the history section and file it under “Current Events,” which would be funny if it weren’t so frighteningly true.
Bluetoe @ 78
As an ex-pat Detroiter, this is an oversimplification of everything that has gone wrong in Detroit.
It took a perfect storm of incompetant leadership, both in industry and government over extended periods of time.
Oh, and
Go Tigers!
Funny thing is that only someone with significant accomplishments in government would be in a position to (a) out a covert CIA agent, (b) be accused of outing a covert CIA agent, (c) commit perjury about the outing of a covert CIA agent, or (d) be
accusedconvicted of committing perjury about the outing of a covert CIA agent. And only someone with a commitment to public service would attain such accomplishments. And anyone with such a commitment and with such accomplishments would have, over the course of demonstrating that commitment and accomplishing whatever he or she accomplished, would be demonstrably dedicated to some or other policies.All of which suggests that Libby team’s character fluff could be said for just about anyone
accusedconvicted of perjury in such a case. The kinds of laws Libby was convicted of breaking — and the kinds of laws he (and/or the VP) might have been convicted of breaking had he not perjured himself apply, as a practical matter, ONLY to the people in a position to break them, viz., dedicated and accomplished public servants . . . whose dedication goes awry and whose accomplishments make them feel above the law.So what’s the point of the quoted paragraph, exactly? There but by the grace of God go others who consider themselves
kewl kids?Beltway insiders?dedicated and accomplished public servants? He’s one of “us”? One free bite?It’s all about the pardon. I think we’re gonna be very disappointed.
Bustednuckles @ 82
(peeks around corner) Thank you Busted. Libby knew exactly what he was doing, signer of the PNAC documents, believer in the Noble Lie and all things Straussian. It follows that he would stay in character from beginning to end.
EPU’d from a thread yesterday:
Biodun @ 40
EvilDrPuma @ 87
if I can offer a word of peacemaking, I don’t think the comments in question were directed at you personally.
Rayne @ 71
Maybe Scooter can go door to door selling over-priced laundry detergent? Coming to a neighborhood near you Rayne! ;->
You know, the thing about him being a parent of young children really pissed me off. Guess what: Valerie Plame is the parent of young children, too. Scooter Libby put her life–and theirs–in jeopardy when he betrayed Plame’s identity to Judy Miller and Matt Cooper.
Oh, and
Go Tigers!
Three dunks by La Bron down the stretch, where’s did Laimbeer and Mahorn go?
oddmommy @ 95
You may not.
Christy, as they say in our Parliament:
Hear, Hear (or is it Here, Here?)
Anyway in this case it means – Right On Sister
“This is the rich portrait of Mr. Libby that emerges from the descriptions of him in the more than 160 heartfelt letters submitted to the Court on his behalf.”
This ticks me off, too, as at least one letter, MINE!! never said anything like that!! They are misrepresenting the volume to mean support, when the judge referenced that fancy word I can’t say or spell that means more than outrage.
I’m still very interested in the number expressing outrage.
Good article.
The filing by Libby’s people shows just how evil this turt really is.
Frank Probst
Bingo!
kdh22 @ 90
Well, a pardon would be an interesting development, since then Waxman could instantly subpoena him and call him up to testify, as he would no longer have the right to plead the 5th, since he couldn’t incriminate himself from crimes for which he has already been convicted of and pardoned for. I am sure the Bushies are thinking long and hard about this. And Scooter would be in even more of a pickle, since if he got caught lying to congress, he could once again be tried for perjury. Habitual lying has a way of getting one backed into a corner, sooner or later.
kdh22 @ 91
Right after the conviction, Al Kamen of the WaPoo in his “In The Loop” column proposed the “Libby Pardon Game,” requesting entrants to submit their predicition for when the Chimpenfuhrer would pardon Libby with the winner to get a t-shirt.
My guess was/is 12/24/2008, sixteen years after daddy had pardoned Cap Weinberger and other cronies.
Hugh @ 76
Hi ho, Silver?
Poor Scooter’s in a hurry. From “Sullivan’s Travels” when Sullivan finds out he’s been sentenced to six years:
“I haven’t time to spend six years.”
“You’ll have to find the time
spurious @ 12
I don’t even think that he’s a nice guy. There were a few personal anecdotes that suggested that (in the work-place) he’s was actually a s.o.b.
Forcing Clusterfuck to issue the pardon earlier than he wanted to would probably be the only concievable win here. That depends less on the sentence than on the decision as to whether scoots can stay out of the can while awaiting parole.
Anyone have an educated guess on the likelihood of that?
Woodhall Hollow @ 100
Agreed. I should have said, it’s all about the CLOCK and the pardon. His Honor is really on the spot right now with the decision as to whether or not jail time pending appeals.
Well, if Libby gets hauled before Congress, let’s hope the questioning is better than what Monica got.
A few weeks ago, at about 5am est, I made what I thought was a funny comment to another poster. The person went totally ape-shit on me and the moderator. I sent a private email trying to explain what I meant and saying I was sorry if it was taken differently. I never heard back from that person. Shit happens even on the Lake.
All right, I’m out of here. I’m sorry, I thought this was a fair-minded community, but clearly I was mistaken.
raven @ 108
Indeed, shit happens.
Only the little people in this country live a nation of laws. The governing class operates under a different principle: Rules are for Losers.
Some of the character letters were shorter and more to the point than others:
For example this one, from his brain-care specialist, Gag Halfrunt,
Christy,
Did you write Judge Walton? I hope so. Libby deserves no mercy.
swag @ 3
Actually, home is more appropriate, IMO. To hone is to sharpen or to whet, as hone one’s skills. To home is to proceed or draw attention toward a goal. Rule of thumb; if you use “in”, use home, rather than hone.
kdh22 @ 92
I don’t, and I’m a die-hard pessimist. Let’s look at the history of this whole case, shall we? Consider all of the worst-case scenarios we kept hearing about that never came to pass:
1. We’ll never know who the leakers were. (Armitage, Rove, and Libby)
2. No one will ever be prosecuted. (Libby was indicted on 5 felony counts.)
3. It’ll never come to trial. (Greymail and various other tactics failed, and it went to trial.)
4. It’ll never go to a jury. (Case went to jury after the defense essentially didn’t even bother to defend Libby.)
5. They’ll never convict. (Guilty on 4 of 5 counts.)
6. He’ll never get jail time.
We’re up to #6 now, and the case is in the hands of a hard-assed judge who appears thoroughly unamused with Team Libby’s antics. Can Bush pardon Libby at the last minute? Sure. But a pardon removes Libby’s 5th Amendment protections, and Henry Waxman will be waiting for him with a subpoena before he makes it to his car. And I think that even George W Bush can see the irony of him pardoning Marc Rich’s lawyer.
Via @ 114
AKA the Leona Helmsley exemption…
Couldn’t bring myself to finish reading this WSJ opinion… BabCom spew doubtless…
“I think I’m gonna hurl!”
There was never an irony not wasted on the Homo Simpleton.
Remember how wonderful it felt that day during the first round of Watergate sentencing,
when Judge Sirica, pissed and tired of the obvious attempts to stonewall and obstruct, gave Liddy and the others 20 YEARS? May Judge Walton channel the spirit of Judge Sirica, and strike a blow for justice.
yellowdogD @ 116
I agree, “hone in” has become common just like “untracked” has in sports lexicon.
can I respectfully ask again my general question about conjugal visits? I don’t mean to be offensive or ghoulish; just wondering what the reality is.
oddmommy @ 94
That was my impression as well. Please don’t leave, EDP!
oddmommy at 119 — Yes. For the most part, anyway.
mommy–
I think it depends on the jurisdiction and perhaps even the specific facility- just a guess.
EvilDrPuma, I would hope you reconsider your decision.
I think it is a fair minded community especially considering its size.
Mods don’t get paid. To expect them to adjudicate a situation which unfolded this quickly is unrealistic.
Often, this is handled by going to a stale thread and the commenters hashing it out there.
Frank @ 97
You beat me to that one.
—
I sure hope that Shrub did not write letters for Scooter. After those speeches where he said he’d fire whoever leaked the information, and that they’d be gone from his administration, writing a letter in favor of leniency for the guy
who took the fall for Darthwould be a … how about ‘impeachable offense’?If we believe everything the WH tells us, this applies to all members of the administration who have broken the law. They are reduced to pleading incompetence to garner sympathy.
“Hey, we f’d up, but we’re really nice guys and all. I didn’t mean to cross the line. So lemme off scott-free, K?”
I am trying to imagine betraying my employer by disclosing some sensitive information and pleading my case this way. How many years would I get, I wonder?
Redd, perhaps prison rape is an issue that should be seriously addressed then somewhere, maybe FDL, maybe somewhere else. Not as a joke and not as “well that’s what they get for being bad,” but as why does this dynamic exist and how can it be corrected?
In other words why is it so endemic, how does the current system foster it and what changes would eliminate, or at least greatly reduce the problem. Of course the whole America prison system is just one huge mess after another.
Hearing of the Chinese bureaucrat who accepted bribes to approve medicine that killed people and now has a date with the firing squad made me think of Christine Whitman for some reason. I am opposed to the death penalty, but I still couldn’t help but think of her assurances that the air was fine at the rubble site during the 9/11 clean-up and the people dying now. Let’s face it the US executes more people per capita than China, but never the white collar serial/multiple killers, mostly only the poor and those of other colors.
oddmommy @ 124
Per wiki Federal Prison system does not allow conjugal visits.
Frank Probst @ 96
That fact should really be brought out. Even the MSM bottom-feeders should be able to understand that.
If they had two neurons to rub together.
If one accepts for the moment that Mr. Libby’s boss, Cheney, and or bosses Rove and Bush, knew and approved of what Libby was doing, and that these bosses will probably never be tried for anything, in light of this assumption, if true, should this then affect the sentencing of the flunky (Libby)? I suppose my answer to my own question would be no. But as to fairness? Well that is another kettle of fish.
P J Evans @ 124
The shrub misadministration is exempt from follow-through. There’s not a single statement from any of them that has bee the truth and they have shown time and time again that they will do what they want, when they want. Damn the torpedos.
Evil, first thing I would invite you to do is communicate with GSD and make sure both of you are talking about the same thing.
I have great respect for both of you as long time commenters.
“why does this dynamic exist and how can it be corrected?”
Short of putting everyone in solitary I think this is a problem without a solution.
Via @ 112
To be sure, but losers at what game? Rules are — or more accurately, rule-following is — for those who are governed by those rules. The governing class is, by definition, not govern-ed. For the governing class, rules are tools to be used in governing others. Ergo, rules (read: rule-following) are for those who are losers at the game of joining the governing class. Q.E.D.
EDP — GSD’s comment likely wasn’t aimed at you because your comment had already been removed long before his comment was made. Likely it was in response to my general admonishment in which I pointedly did not refer to your comment at all because I was deliberately trying not to make it a personal issue but strike a general tone.
Very few people would have even known you had made a crack about the issue had you not jumped into the thread and started talking about your comment, to be perfectly honest. Sometimes, and I am guilty of this myself from time to time, it is a good idea to take a deep breath and a step back from the keyboard to look at things in a larger context rather than go from your gut. But on the whole, I don’t think that GSD’s comment was directed at you at all — but the general comment that I made, instead, regarding such prior “jokes” about prison rape. Which is exactly why I repeat the general admonishment from time to time in the first place.
People have been incredibly touchy in the comments lately, and I am at a loss to figure out just exactly why that is. If anyone has thoughts on that they would like to share — both on the whys and the how to regain some less touchy, less short fuse-y balance? I am all ears. Because, frankly, it is wearing me out.
(And, to be perfectly honest, spending this thread talking about prison rape was really not what I had in mind for my day. Ugh.)
My absolute favorite line from the WSJ editorial:
(***WARNING: You may strain a muscle by rolling your eyes too hard.***)
“Mr. Fitzgerald’s cynical handling of it illuminates what is wrong with special prosecutors who investigate and try these cases without adult supervision by the Justice Department. “
Solai @ 106
That’s refreshing to hear. Much less annoying than ‘nice’, given his reprehensible behavior.
Frank Probst @ 138
Oh my *(^%^*(-ing God.
Frank Probst @ 136
Oh yeah, the Injustice Department, that’s exaclty who I’d want supervising! puke!
Just as an aside, I wonder how pissed off Judge Walton is about the Bushies screwing around with the justice system itself in the prosecutor scandals. Not that it would have any official bearing on his sentencing Scooter, but it makes you wonder how much of “look what a great public servant he is” (as applied to anyone in control in this administration) Judge Walton is willing to buy. I think he’d look at it as simply more sand thrown in the face of the umpire, to use Fitz’s phrase.
Treason. Yes. Freedom of speech stops when abridged by statute – as in abusing one’s office to orchestrate revelations that may (and did) endanger the United States.
Diction lecture: As for “home,” what’s the problem? It seems to work better in Christy’s post than “hone,” which means “sharpen.” Often idiomatically “hone in on” may mean, roughly, “usurp.” Neither of these senses work in reference to Christy’s nesting herself (”homing”) in on a response to this set of bullshit support letters. But really, why quibble? You knew what she meant.
Frank Probst @ 141
Wait, there are still adults at the Justice Department? I thought Abu and Rove got them all.
theExile @ 130
There was a guy on CSPAN a few months back who wrote about his experiences in prison, including prison rape. He was very good but it was difficult to hear what he had to say.
Darn that I cannot remember his name. Anybody?
Christy Hardin Smith @ 139
That’s too bad. This has always been such a great place. If it turns into another crybaby flamethrowing “leftie board” lotta folks will just tune out.
I don’t think Leavenworth is still active as a federal pen, but whichever one to which they send the bank-robbers and kidnappers and the likes of Tim McVeigh, that’s the one in which Scooter should be confined.
When one’s loyalty to Party/person surpasses that to your own fucking country, you should pay dearly for your sins.
.
[Mod Note; edited to remove potentially misconstrued humor]
spurious @ 131
EXACTLY. I’d commented at Marcy’s “St. Libby” post about one snippet in that letter:
Really, if that wasn’t an indication right there that these f*ckers were guilty of conspiracy and treason, I don’t know what was.
Here’s a key person in the Counter Proliferation Department whose identity has been breached, and they do abso-f*cking-lutely NOTHING upon learning this happened. Big dog not barking, yes?
This operative has two very small children and a spouse that might be considered a high value target under certain circumstances, all at risk, and yet they do abso-f*cking-lutely NOTHING to remediate the damage or affirmatively provide protection.
Were I the Vice President or his COS, I’d be scrambling to get somebody’s head put on a platter for this egregious offense in a time of war for outing Plame. BUT THEY DID NOTHING.
And they did nothing for a very specific reason.
Throw the motherf*cking book at Libby.
Woodhall Hollow@51
I would hope no violence befalls him. But the thought of him being the new Maytag on the block works for me. Let him rinse the undies of the blind sheikh.
BobbyG at 144 — Exactly, and I am truly at a loss on this one. So any thoughts on the way back to more balanced discussion and less gripy whatever-in-the-hell has been going on lately would be very much appreciated. Because, truly, it is wearing me out.
John Casper @ 127
Seconded.
I don’t know about anyone else but I could stand to get laid.
*g*
Rayne #150,
Yes. Throw the book as hard as possible.
Frank Probst @ 139
Wow, my irony meter just spiked
Christy Hardin Smith @ 140
I know that I, for one, am incredibly frustrated by the general news in DC, let alone specific stories about corruption and torture and surges and such, and as a result I try to watch myself so that this doesn’t spill over elsewhere and get misdirected.
Preview is my friend.
So are many of you here at the Lake.
Busted:
I rise on a point of information-
If yer standin- is it gettin “laid”?
BobbyG @ 146
crybaby flamethrowing “leftie board”
Putting aside the “leftie” business (as if one’s politics dictates everything about rhetoric and behavior in public discourse), the image of crybabies with flamethrowers is a great one that captures the problem of heightened sensitivities combined with rhetorical excess.
Bustednuckles @ 153
You know Busted, I was just thinking about that. Like Rodney in Caddyshack!
rwcole @ 158
Good point, I do have a bad back.
Bluetoe @ 25
Yes. Whenever I hear the media apologizing for Libby I am reminded of Benedict Arnold, another famous American traitor.
The wider public would probably never have heard of Libby except for his betrayal of his country. He was an average, if high ranking, bureaucrat.
That was not true of Benedict Arnold, a better than average, personally courageous, and justly celebrated soldier, who was responsible for several key victories during the early Revolutionary War He was well known to and trusted by George Washington who recommended him for promotion, chose him to lead key campaigns and defended him from Congressional criticism on several occasions.
But Arnold’s betrayal of his country’s trust was so damaging and so spectacular that he will always be remembered as a traitor, not a hero. Say “Benedict Arnold” and the only thing that most Americans, and English, remember is “traitor.”
Libby will be the same.
Long after the yapping of his desperate apologists has been forgotten, the damage done to vital American interests – the full extent of which cannot yet be fully assessed and, even if some nuclear catastrophe occurs, may never be publicly known – by Libby and his superiors, will be remembered.
Since Libby and the Vice President are in such highly placed and trusted government positions, which Arnold was not, their names may well become synonyms for traitor just as quisling – once a proper name – has done.
Benedict Arnold.
Vidkun Quisling.
Scooter Libby.
Traitors, every one.
of COURSE Scooter’s a motherf*cking prick at work. Hiter was a prick, too, and Stalin. Authoritarians do NOT make good bosses, and totalitarians are even less reliable…
Fukk Scooter…
.
EPU’d and yay, this time not OT! :) I’m hoping to see this text of mine on “reveal-the-Libby-sentencing-letters” red letter day.
———
Judge Reggie B. Walton
…
Re: Sentencing of I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby Jr.
April 1, 2007
Dear Judge Walton,
I am just an American Citizen with no other relationship to my Government or anyone in it. I feel it is my patriotic duty to express an opinion in this matter.
Libby was convicted of obstruction of justice in an extraordinarily important case, one involving the probable treason (as I see it; legal definitions aside) of exposing a covert CIA operative and her network, for the purposes of political revenge. If he or anyone were to have been convicted of the latter crime, a judge would probably be mulling the death penalty.
For obstructing the probe into that heinous crime (which MUST have been committed by someone) I say that he should receive the heaviest possible sentence, irrespective of prior record or previous position.
Thank you for your consideration of my views.
Very truly yours,
/signed
———
‘PupMap (640 people!), Chat, Calendar, Timeline (Click here or on my .SIG above)
BobbyG @ 148
Maybe some of it has to do with the fact that it seems that none of the things the “FDL Community” hoped for with the November elections appear to have a ghost of a chance of happening. I know people get tired of hearing about “the 60’s” but a lot of people just got fed up with all the talk and the lack of progress on the back then. Look at what Cindy said about not just the Dems but other people in the “anti-war” movement being “ego driven”.
John Casper @ 136
Also, note that people jump in and out of the Lake, especially if they’re at work. As of this moment, I don’t see any later posts from GSD, so s/he may not even be aware of this misunderstanding.
Twisted Martini @ 155
Caddyshack has been called! Excellent! Laid? Why, yes, I think I will!
Mr. Libby is lucky I did not do the pre-sentence investigstion and recommendation. One of the few areas in which I am conservative, and hard-nosed, is in the vicinity of felonies. And treason really does get my blood boiling.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 151
Christy, I think we’re all suffering from overload. We’re in what feels like a free fall with no end in sight, and we’re batting around at anything. I know I am beyond furious.
But next week’s sentencing might help ease some of the tension, a tangible step towards justice if it will only be a bandaid on the much bigger problem.
Any prison should be hard labor time.
dakine01 @ 31, you have to remember Martha’s crime was so much more serious than Libby’s. Early on in the accusations against her, she defended herself saying she had done nothing wrong. It’s done all the time but the Feds (including self-righteous Comey) jumped on it as the bright, shiny object to take the heat off Enron and others. And Martha did her time and then some without bitching.
David Broder isn’t excited about the letters at all:
San Francisco: Are you excited about reading the Irve Libby sentencing letters after he is sentenced? About which letter-writer do you think we will be most surprised?
David S. Broder: No I am not excited. Are you?
Christy Hardin Smith @ 140
If you’ll pardon the colloquialism, the funding bill put a lot of people’s dick in the dirt. Our community has been emotionally brutalized by seeing our great republic brought to the brink of destruction. No doubt most of us, at one point or another, despaired. It seems so easy for them to fuck things up, and so hard for us to affect change.
The Libby case is a good example. We’ve been (deservedly) spiking the ball over his conviction and imminent sentencing, but it’s a phyrric victory: they succeeded in preventing indictments for the underlying crime. Meantime, the list of outrages and mountain of bodies grows ever higher.
I’ve used the analogy before, but the 1st Century christians spent most of their time attacking each other rather than the Romans, who were feeding them to the lions. It often feels that our own real enemy is equally unassailable.
Rayne @ 169
Think you are correct there. It has been an intense few months and people want to see issues resolved on many items effecting the government.
dakine01 @ 22
Duly noted! This was my reaction when I read this. Smokin’!
I never fail to be amazed by the effectiveness of FDL vigilance & outrage. Good on ya!
Not much excites Broder any more. His current writing is a preparation for death.
Christy, I believe the touchiness lately is because of the “so-close-but so-far” syndrome. We are making progress but we are so close but so far from out goals.
Christy or anyone -
Is Judge Walton the type who will offer up his own comments/opinion on the matter?
Maybe I’m dreaming – but I would just love it if he would put this whole thing in context by talking about how serious it is, and how Libby’s actions in effect created a firewall that stopped Fitz from getting at the truth.
Sometimes, “killing them with kindness works”. Naturally, occasionally that concept has its limitations. ;0)
RonD @ 121
Amen.
rwcole @ 176
Agree completely.
sofistic @ 176
Beautifully stated. This is exactly the source of my own frustration…hope I don’t take it out on anyone. :) Peace.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 152
I’ve been away a lot lately (ailing parents in Florida wearing me out), but, I lurk when I have time. FDL posts remain wonderful. But, on other sites (e.g. HuffPo) where the comments get increasingly flame-ish, I tend to just tune out and quit going there much.
.
tommy yum at 9:36 am
Thanks, excellent comment imvho.
With that said, I would argue that Scooter’s conviction is much more than Pyrrhic victory.
We’ve made unbelieveable progress from when Jane and Christy first launched FDL, but I completely agree, it’s difficult to remember it, especially, because of the collapse on the funding bill.
PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION.
Maybe the WSJ needs to see this exclusive video I have uncovered which shows a secret, internal meeting at the “Justice Department.” Everyone there knows Patrick Fitzgerald is a poopyhead!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0HNktT4iEXU
Reflecting on the Rosenbergs, there was a time when the right wing would hang a Jew for treason, not give him love letters.
[Mod Note; your point is valid, but let’s all be very careful about how we express them.]
Christy Hardin Smith @ 152
Due to recent events in DC, I alternate between being heartsick and angry/frustrated. It wouldn’t surprise me to find that many here feel the same way.
I think it’s spilling over into the comments.
albert fall @ 5
On a brighter note. I called as well and the staffer said they were getting lots of calls on this and they would forward them on.
I for one, can’t wait to find out about these 160 “people” that believe in treason, destruction of intelligence community, war of oil, mass murder, and the list goes on and on.
I hope that these authors are tried for their crimes of obstruction of justice, as a starting point
Certain subjects and issues, like racism, rape, homophobia, abortion, and so on, are simply hot-button and radioactive. They’re way too personal, and cannot easily be discussed by many in the context of civil discourse, IMHO.
Yes, FDL is a unique blog in terms of its civility, and a lot of that has to do with the way Christy and Jane have run it. FDLers should appreciate the blog and its community. Just my 2 Cents.
I have not had much time for reading all the comments at teh Lake recently, just keeping current with posts, mostly.
But I have to say that the climate crisis, plus the endless, escalating bloodletting in Iraq, plus the summer, the worries about water, and health concerns for people and animals in my life have made it difficult to really cope with the overload.
Maybe this is happening to others as well. I think of Helen Caldicott and the psychic overload of nuclear destruction/blocking out the horror of thinking of what is coming is in my mind lately, particularly as it concerns the war and the environment.
There has been alot of momentum towards the goal of unseating this occupation administration. We are getting kind of spoiled with every new report wherein another BusChen loyal zealot is brought to heel. Tim Griffin, Dan Bartlett just today! But…
Are we satisfied?
HARDLY!
Not unitl…
(WSJ Editorial)(Finally finished it…)
Could one of our lawyers explain what the process and procedures will be at the sentencing on Tuesday? How long is it likely to take?
Thanks!
Robert Chapman @ 142
My sentiments exactly.
Frank Probst @ 141
Frank…it was at that line that I tossed the paper across the table and gave up! I tried, I really tried to read the darn thing, but that did me in…
Biodun at 185. I agree with you. That is why I visit so few other blogs anymore. And, even though I am retired, I actually do have a life outside of politics.
“People have been incredibly touchy in the comments lately, and I am at a loss to figure out just exactly why that is. If anyone has thoughts on that they would like to share — both on the whys and the how to regain some less touchy, less short fuse-y balance? I am all ears. Because, frankly, it is wearing me out.”
It’s because we are furious at how our country has been taken away from us, words are used for entirely different things than they ought to be, Arabs and Marines are dieing every god damn day and nothing is beibng done to stop it, and our ice caop will probably capsuize in my grandson’s life time, and my president doesn’t believe in random number theory, etc.! etc.! etc.! and it uis HARD to remain ciovil day inm and day out when shit like that is haoppening and you can do absolutely NOTHING about it!!!
Yep, another Rove deputy left as well, Sara Taylor and Ralston is trying to get immunity.
We’re definitely scoring hits.
Has the game been played yet where we guess the highest ranking official to have written a support letter?
I’ll start:
Joe Lieberman (on Senate stationery) asking to put this partisan witch-hunt to an end.
New thread by Howie: Can Allies Disagree Profoundly? The Return of Joe Sestack to Blue America
oldtree @ 188
The impression I have is that Judge Walton has received approximately 160 letters total, both pro and con. So it is just a bit disingeneous for his defense team to rely on that number.
Of course, disingeneous appears to be the essense of the Libby defense strategy from jump street.
Fresh thread from Howie for everyone, if you are ready for a new read.
Biodun @ 190
Agree.
Solai @ 198
I say Dick Cheney
One of the things that makes FDL what it is is that Redd and Jane don’t just post and go- they hang out in the comments and comment on the comments. That gives them more of an opportunity to set the tone- which they do. It’s pretty natural that a couple hundred people making comments will get on one another’s nerves from time to time. Overall things seem pretty mellow here- although there is a tendancy to “punish” comments that express a point of view different from the majority.
I made my own sentencing recommendations for Scooter over at The Well-Armed Lamb
i am a LOT less decorous than our good Redd…
.
Howie Klein upstairs — up there!
♥ Christy ♥
Lynne (she outranks Shooter, right?)
hychka at 196 — But you guys do realize tha the incivility and outright nastiness that crops up then has to be dealt with by the author of the post as well as moderators, right? That this isn’t some costless free-for-all but, instead, that it takes exhaustive behind-the-scenes and actual in the comments work from folks who then have to step in and try and cool things down before the whole thread disintegrates into a nightmare. Sometimes, I think we should have a thread where we turn off all the SPAM filters and the nastiness filters and such and just let the entire ooze of filth spill over for the thread — because keeping a conversation running on an even keel here takes a lot of work. And it ought to be work not just from the front page folks and the moderators, but from the entire community together.
That this has broken down the last few weeks is incredibly disappointing to me — because we ought to be reaching out to each other and saying “what can we do to make things better — to move things forward” and instead we end up bickering which gets us nowhere except spinning our wheels in a bunch of mud. It is incredibly frustrating on my end, I have to say.
But I am at a loss as to how to deal with it, frankly.
Rayne @ 149
Not to mention the families of any foreign operatives that may have been compromised by Valerie’s outing. And an investigation into the outing was never even begun–obviously because everone knew that the outer was Cheney himself.
Redd
I don’t think I’ve seen too much of the “nastiness”. Is it coming from personal comments from one poster to another- or does it stem from differences of opinion? Can you characterize it?
So for when is he getting kudos for nurturing his children?
Post conviction, when he should have been unemployable or during the WH years when he was in the office at the crack of dawn six days a week and always on call, including his son’s birthday, to do Dick’s dirty work?
He’d have had to have been a total monster to have done that and hit the party circuit too. And post conviction I think any lawyer would have advised him that now was not the time to start pulling a Lohan and party.
Must have been written by some idiot who has never had children, or at least not had them in the same room with them for more than 15 minutes before the nanny took the kids back to their wing.
Brisingamen @ 182
me too.
i am surprised at how angry (no. i’m really furious) i remain. congress’s continued funding the iraq occupation is the worst… but the sneaky way it was done (kabuki, secret negotiations, opaque rule) have really pissed me off….
and then there’s the lack of progress on other fronts (climate, torture, …) and don’t get me started on the secret trade stuff. i wasn’t expecting congress to be so bad (many of the “oversight” hearings have been painful to watch).
i’m having a hard time wrapping my head around it all…
edit to add:
the strangest thing, though, is that we’re not coming together with our fury (’cuz i don’t think i’m the only one). i find myself holding back at describing how pissed off i am with the Ds in congress because i don’t want to hurt other commenters who identify more closely with the D party (or perhaps with specific D politicians) more than i do.
i thought some of jane’s recent posts were an excellent attempt to focus our anger at rahm….
In a lot of ways, the Democrats continue to give the Republicans a free pass. On the supplemental, they didn’t hammer the Republicans for voting against funding the troops and then structured a vote so that the Republicans could say they voted for funding.
During the Goodling hearings, the Republican Representatives did nothing but drool and waste space, time, and oxygen. And no, they weren’t called on that either.
McConnell is the real Senate leader. He filibusters everything while Harry Reid stands around looking foolish until he caves.
Meanwhile the media contine their never ending quest to pander to this Administration and they have yet to show even a spark of critical thought.
And then there is the President who gives more and more indications that he has completely flipped out.
And rather than do anything to stop the dying in Iraq, everyone waits around like Petraeus is the Second Coming, instead of a guy who’s got nothing. And Abu is still slouching along the corridors of the DOJ.
Yes, it is frustrating.
Echo all that has been said about frustration with how wrong things are and how hard it is to get them fixed.
I think Norske Flamethrower sums it up best with his “AND THE KILLING GOES ON” refrain.
neokneme @ 190
You don’t get what you want until 1/20/2009, if then.
Christy:
This blog’s civility will survive because of you and Jane, no question of that. I feel for you at these moments, because quite frankly you don’t deserve it. I’m impressed enormously by the copious production of research and knowledge on this blog, and I know I’m not the only one by any means.
spurious @ 193
On the other hand — and there is always another hand — maybe this line just indicates the potential equivocation in phrases like “adult supervision.” Inherent slippage in language. Differance. Republicans are from Mars, Dems from Venus. Whatever.
When used by FDL-types, this phrase must mean respecting the rule of law, pursuing sound policy, etc. (as per whatever those terms as thought to mean). For the WSJ, however, “adult supervision” might mean something more like adhering to loyal-Bushiness. Forgive me, I’m not entirely fluent in either FDL or WSJ. But it suddenly occurs to me that maybe the WSJ is not cynically abusing language — maybe in WSJ-sprach, that’s what “adult supervision” really and truly means.
Thoughts from anyone bilingual in FDL and WSJ who might elucidate the two meanings of this false cognate?
RonD @ 122
Followed by a letter from Howard Hunt saying, “Uh, your honor, can we talk some stuff I didn’t mention before?”
I saw a reference in some of the coverage that Sirica attended the trial. I only hope he encouraged Judge Walton as to the stakes FOR THE COUNTRY in doing the job right.
Bionic @ 213
a heartfelt ROGER to that.
dakine01 @ 200
Thanks, I was just wondering about the 160 number. It figures the defense would claim all of them as “heckuva job” letters.
Hey, it isn’t treason if the VP tells you to break the law! He da boss!
puke, indeed.
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 162
Is he an authoritarian personally? I thought he was just Cheney’s running dog.
rw at 211 — You know, some of it ends up geting pulled really quickly by the mods — a disagreement that generates into namecalling, for example. So unless you are refreshing really quickly on comments, most folks may never see that aspect of it. But there has been a general feeling — just tense and ready to spring at the slightest provocation lately. Less of a conversation and discussion of ideas, more invective and grouchiness, I suppose.
We have long tried to foster a dialogue in the comments — a conversation that builds from one factual discussion to another, and connects the dots in between. You’ve been around from the get go here, so you know what I mean in terms of substantive conversation versus just taking potshots at each other. I dunno how to describe it otherwise — does that make sense?
albert fall @ 218
Do you mean Sirica attended the Libby trial. Sorry, need more coffee. If that’s what you meant, that’s pretty cool.
Biodun @ 216
FWIW, I have been able to develop a very strong “ignore” filter over the years that comes in quite handy. The only problem is when I have to invoke it so much in a thread that the good pieces/comments become too difficult to find in amongst the not so good and ignore worthy.
Ursus provided a clue to this behavior
Robert Chapman @ 217
Ewps: the line in question is “Mr. Fitzgerald’s cynical handling of it illuminates what is wrong with special prosecutors who investigate and try these cases without adult supervision by the Justice Department. “
Albert Fall #217,
Would that it were so. Judge Sirica passed away in ‘92, IIRC.
I’m sure he was there in spirit.
Hugh @ 210
agreed with everything you wrote…. but, especially this.
what’s the deal? an R senator can put a secret hold on a bill and prevent FOIA from being strengthened… but no D senator can put a secret hold on the MCA or the Iraq occupation supplemental funding? what’s up with that?
i know i don’t understand how things work…. but this just seems nuts.
spurious @ 221
You know, I finally picked up John Dean’s Conservatives without Conscience. Wow. It explains a WHOLE lot about the inner workings of wingnuts. Including being aggressive on behalf of the Social Dominator. You’ll find Libby on page 69.
I highly recommend this book. I feel foolish for not reading it sooner. It is answering so many of my questions. Loyalty and obedience far outrank conscience and moral authority. But we knew that.
Great post Redd. I share your outrage. In addition, I want to see the MSM and the Dems show outrage as well. As many on the thread have said, Libby committed TREASON. Why does the MSM and the Dems let this administration’s actions simply roll off their backs?
Redd- Yeah- it makes sense. Sounds as if the core of the problem is posters taking shots at one another. Guess the only thing you can do is to make it clear that it won’t be tolerated and then show that you mean it- which I think you do.
The other thing that can be done- and you do it- is to model appropriate behavior for handling disagreement- respectful exchange of opinion should be valued-. Disagreement should be valued- rudeness not tolerated.
FYI: Gonzales live on C-Span @ 2pm ET. Don’t know what this is. Might just be more blah, blah, blah….or not!
And oh, getting pissed at Congress and at BushCo and beating up on fellow FDLers are not exactly the same thing. And one doesn’t necessarily follow from the other, unless one makes it so.
RonD @ 227
Ah, regret the mistake. Thank you for the correction.
Too much wishful thinking, obviously.
I think you do a great job. When I was edgy during the Va Tech situation you were quick to call it to my attention and even go to bat for me by way of explanation. I do this sometimes it may be difficult for folks to differentiate between some of the “snark” directed at “the opposition” that would be unacceptable if directed at another poster.
raven at 235 — Thanks — I remember that particular discussion point on VT. And I’m glad that was helpful for you for that thread. :)
The “distinguished public servant” claim does indeed make it sound as if they have no clue what he was convicted of.
As to “hone in on” vs. “home in on”, they are both perfectly acceptable and appropriate.
Excellent commentary. I concur with all of it but one essential. Libby is an operative for and a functioning firewall to the Cheney monster. But he is also a committed Leninist, a signee to the PNac, a Jacobin revolutionary in the sick tradition on Leo Strauss. He is committed to chronic and habitual lying to disguise from the public his true intention. He is desparately committed to the complete overthrow of any notion or figment of ‘democracy’ or representative government. His position in the Cabal and its inherent hierarchy of power should not overshadow his fundamental committment to the overthrow of the last remnants of 20th century democracy.
RW, It’s kinda like a big family get together sometimes.
There is always going to be friction at one point or another.
I agree that Redd and Jane and our outstanding mods do a hell of a job keeping the place civil and as a long time poster I will occasionally jump in and try to keep things in line.
I don’t know if thats a problem, but I at least try.
Other posters also will jump in to calm things down.
The problem of not having face to face and voice inflection is often to blame.
We have lost a lot of good folks over the years and I would like to see this place flourish as it is a lone spot of sanity in this world.
Political discussion always tend to go ballistic because so many of the issues border on the “moral”. There is a tendancy to see those who disagree with us as just not wrong- but as immoral bastards. That makes discussion troublesome. It would be easy for a blog to turn into a VERY narrow group who always agreed with one another- doesn’t seem very interesting though.
CHS, I agree with rwcole #230 and dakine #223. A clear message that ad hominem attacks and insults won’t be tolerated, combined with reminding everyone not to assume the worst and shoot from the hip. Having said that, I think the somewhat freewheeling nature of the exchange of ideas at the Lake make more things possible, and is also thus more easily spoiled by people who sometimes forget they are guests in someone else’s home. FWIW, I love this site, and you and the others frequently leave my mouth hanging open in admiration. Thanks for letting me, and others like me, hang out.
Another reminder of just how persistent wingnuttia really is:
Publisher aims to teach kids right from left
A Torrance executive says he sees too many children’s books with liberal views. His titles aim to tilt the shelves the other way.
By Stephanie Simon, Times Staff Writer
June 1, 2007
PUBLISHING executive Eric Jackson’s first foray into children’s books was a cartoon tale of two brothers and a lemonade stand.
Hoping to earn money for a swing set, young Tommy and Lou squeeze lemons until their little hands ache. But they are thwarted by broccoli-pushing, camera-hogging, Jesus-hating liberals who pile on taxes and regulations and drive the boys out of business.
The book, “Help! Mom! There Are Liberals Under My Bed!,” came out two years ago. Jackson said it sold nearly 30,000 copies, which in the publishing world made it a bona fide hit. That success reinforced Jackson’s view that the nation’s bookshelves had tilted way too far left and that a correction was in order.
He thinks most children’s books are way too liberal, and are teaching them unAmerican values like environmentalism and tolerance. Or so I gather from the first page of this multi-page article.
—
On the local environment: I’d rather read here than HuffPo, which has far too many wingnuts and trolls in their comments.
rwcole #239
Exactly right, and well-said.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 207
Christy, I have noticed an influx of new names in recent weeks, and besides new friends this may also indicate an influx of low-flying trolls. Someone else (can’t find it now, but it was at the end of a post about immigration) noted that some of these creatures seem to aim at setting us against each other. So besides searching our own souls, we should also be on guard against sabotage from without.
That the Lake has not succumbed to the flame-wars that do in so many other online communities is clearly the result of quick, smart mods and lots of hard work on your part. Please know that it is much appreciated.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 210
Christy, thanks for your hard work in maintaining a civil tone here. Over the last week I’ve gained even more appreciation for what you all do to manage the emotional interplay in the comments simply in order to allow a discussion of concepts.
Thanks.
I expect the opposition to use ad hominem attacks and social intimidation, and I wasn’t disappointed.
On our side, I wish folks would ask how a given expression wil affect the group before they hit send.
In Bay Area activism, my shorthand for this is “emotional dump”. I wanna help, there’s much to be done - but help doesn’t mean simply being the container for someone else’s rage or despair on a regular basis.
I know how to do it, but it feels too much like work.
Thanks for what you do.
[And - OT -I hope no Roundup comes near you or the Peanut. Anything that screws with cellular estrogen levels is truly bad stuff!]
It has probably been said above, but if I global replace “Mr. Libby” with “Ms. Plame,” and tidy up a few details, wouldn’t lots of people write in all the same things about Valerie?
Except they’d be true of course.
So a fine family man with only the public good on his mind attacks a fine family woman with only the public good in her mind — who wins? In an odd way, that comparison lays bare the cynical heart of all this nonsense. The letters support the team with the most power, who used said power against someone who could not fight back.
That’s what Libby did. He attacked the very sort of public servant he was supposed to be defending, and he did it 1) knowing she couldn’t publicly fight back, and 2) with the intent of wrecking havoc not just upon her, but more importantly on her husband. And he obviously did not give a shit about their kids.
Not to mention whether or not his actions made our country safer or not.
I think that makes it pretty clear — he’s not a patriot, he’s not focused on doing good to others, he has no integrity based on whatever oath of office he was sworn in under, and he casually discarded the lives of Valerie and her family like so much trash.
So much for the fine family man with only the public good on his mind. He is not. Instead he is merely the political version of Dracula’s pathetic familiar, eating whatever cockroach off the floor that Dick Cheney ordered him to. And liking it.
clio @ 162
Actually, I find this highly Americo-centric (if there is such a word). I’m not talking about Libby but Arnold. The British and Canadians recognize that Americans see him as the biggest of traitors but do not themselves see him this way.
When I read your comment I recalled my highschool history and to make this coment I read some non American potted biographies.
It seems the reason Arnold was so reviled among the many who switched sides during the American Revolution was because he was seen as second only to Washington in his military skill.
And post war, most of his trials and tribulations he brought upon himself because of his thinskin and arrogance. He did fight for the Britsih in other places and received thousands of acres in landgrants from the government.
Many people in Canada proudly trace their heritage to the United Empire Loyalists — Americans who left the US due to the Revolution.
I’m not knocking your country’s perception of him, just the view that the other side held/holds the same perception.
Robert Chapman @ 215
Getting a neat mental image of a many-handed monster! Not sure I completely follow your comment, but this has always been about language; the repub tactic of ‘defining’ goes back at least to Dukakis’ rejection of the term ‘liberal’, which the repigs had made into a curse. The late Lee Atwater honed the use of emotionally-charged attack language to a fine weapon, and Rove is his unworthy successor.
When we’re directly challenging power (Lieberman) or idustry (Big AgChem; Big Mutant Food) I expect paid disruptors in the discussion.
mmm…Monsanto…..
Terminator seeds, Frankenfoods, Agent Orange, PCB’s….and Roundup
Monsanto
Food and Health and Hope
[h/t seize the day]
selise @ 226
There has to be some blackmail in the system somewhere. I suspect Rove/Cheney.
spurious @ 246
Ditto that. Many new faces. And some of them clearly provocateurs.
Some are less clear; it’s not that we don’t disagree from time to time, but that this site and its caliber of posters and discussion has drawn a different kind of agent provocateur. I am positive this is SOP, that each important progressive site able to influence opinion has an assigned agent (makes me think of the Matrix) that is responsible for disruption. Most of the other big name sites have one that is easily identified, shows up under the same alias consistently. But this site draws much different agents (although there is one that is persistently the same). In fact this site draws multiple agents of increasing complexity — a tribute to the kind of site FDL is and the reach it has, I guess.
Put our increasing frustration together with increased provocation and it’s a recipe for conflict.
edit: heh. Kirk, I see we were on the same wavelength about the agents.
Hi Christy,
Coming in late to the discussion, but I want to thank you for your brilliant post this morning. Libby is not above the law and I hope justice will prevail. Unfortunately after what has happend in the last few weeks I am very cynical.
As to the nasty comments of late, I have to agree with Kirk @ 247 .Some of this could be emotional dumping.
The level of frustration many of us feel has hit an all time high these last few weeks with the Supreme Court patronizing rulings on pay equity and late term abortion on top of Congreses disapointing Iraq vote. All this has been devastating and I think some of the bitchiness and venting may come from our deep level of frustration. Add to that the desire to be witty and/or snarky and you get troubling comments. It is not an excuse but it may explain why it is happening now.
FDL has been the one of the few places where I can read intelligent thoughts from like minds and find out what is really going on. I appreciate the sound arguments people make here espcially you and Jane. Thanks for that.
OT/ PS to Kirk: Canning Brandied Cherries today. Great with vanilla ice cream!
RonD @ 241 nails it…
Bears repeating. It’s all about the connection with FDL. For better or worse, this is a marriage of passion and insight. And married folks know about the dynamics of passion! (Not that singles don’t!)
We readers never had it better, frankly!
“~}
Re touchiness,
I think people were expecting too much from the change in Congress after the elections. Congress can only work so fast, and there are so many different scandals. They can’t clean up in 6 months what the Republicans have taken years to destroy. I have the privilege of knowing people in both chambers and have some idea what their workload is like.
In particular, I think people are reacting viscerally to the Iraq vote which can be debated for its pros and cons [and I do have some insights to share when the temperature goes down a little] but overall people were disgusted with this blown opportunity.
This community did NOT savage each other the way that many progressive blogs did right after that vote. It speaks very highly of the community building that has been done here, and Christy, your strong leadership in this regard has made all the difference.
Folks:
Marathon, not sprint. Are we going to say to the next generation, well, we gave it a try after the elections, but gave up after 6 months? DON’T GIVE UP. We are fighting for long run solutions.
Egregious 256,
Thank you for writing that!
egregious @ 255
You are so right, egregious. I think people are really hurting over this thing. I wasn’t as surprised and dejected as so many others have been, I guess because I have become so accustomed to the cynical nature of politics. I used to be an idealist, but no more. I am more of the marathon mentality like you, I guess.
Everyone needs a nice cyber-bearhug for caring so much that it hurts.
(((((((egregious))))))
((((((((FDL community)))))))))
(((((((Christy!))))))
(((((((Jane!)))))))
LS, Mandrake, thank you for your kind words and hugs.
One additional point, a lot of us thought our country was in trouble at some level. Now many are realizing that our country is really, really in deep trouble. It does make one angry. I passed thru my white heat of anger a couple years ago, but recognize the symptoms in others.
We will survive, and we will conquer.
Topanga-lib, that sounds yummy. Mmmm. Cherries. WHen you have a sec, if there’s a linky to a recipe that would be great. Time to put the cherry pitter to work!
Hey Rayne – glad we’re seeing the same patterns!
Sheldon Rampton and John Staubers’ great book Trust Us, We’re Experts provides the user’s guide to this – makes recognizing the disruption patters (and IDing the agents of chaos) far easier.
They also wrote Toxic Sludge is Good For You – another fave.
I pray the buck doesn’t stop with Libby.
If the general public could only be honestly, openly, and frequently told what Valerie Wilson did, and what she worked on and how she risked her life to keep the world safe, maybe then they would see the extent of the damage done by this administration by outing her and then begin to realize how drastically that may affect them personally in the future.
Libby is but a crumb in this story, and he needs to be sentenced accordingly. He is not a nice guy.
((((((egregious))))))
Kirk @ 260:
Sorry no link. The recipe is my own. But I’d be happy to share. Though not sure how to send it to you.
spurious @ 250
Restatement of argument: My first reaction to the WSJ call for “adult supervision from the DOJ” was some version of “hmm, unintended irony” or “there’s the pot calling the kettle black” because as we all know DOJ has not recently proven itself capable of anything even remotely like “adult supervision” in the sense that most of us use the term.
I thought next that the WSJ was engaged in cynical and Atwater-esque perversions of language for political purposes. After all, only the grossest Machiavellian in some uber-Orwellian dystopia could use the terms “adult supervision” and “DOJ” connected by the preposition “by” rather than “of.” It’s a consipracy of Republican dirty tricks directed at the very core of meaning!!!
Then I wondered: maybe when the WSJ calls for “adult supervision by the DOJ,” they do in fact mean, in an honest and straightforward way, that the DOJ should be charged with doing to special prosecutors and independent counsels (even though I’m a lawyer, I can’t keep the difference between the two straight in my head) exactly what it does for US Attorneys: make them subordinate to politics. Maybe in WSJ language, “adult” simply means “responsible to the governing party.”
So, maybe (MAYBE: I am not certain about this at all) there isn’t really a cynical ploy to turn language upside down at all. There are two languages that share a false cognate –words in different languages that look the same and are wrongly thought to be related in origin (German haben and Latin habere) or in meaning (French avertissement and English advertisement). Maybe the WSJ’s call for “adult supervision” not an attempt to corrupt our language at all — any more than Anglophones are trying to mess with French by “misusing” advertisement — so much as a normal use of their language. Anglophones aren’t doing anything to French and aren’t “making” the French word anything at all. And maybe my first two reactions were the result of my not realizing that outside of the liberal circles in which I run, that is considered the “normal” meaning.
In other words, maybe the reason some of us were shocked by the WSJ’s language is the same reason an English-speaker with only one year of high school French would be shocked by a Francophone’s use of the verb “blesser” to mean “to wound or injure” rather than “make happy or give a benediction to”: we aren’t fluent in conservativese.
Last!
Eloquent post, Christy.
yellowdogD @ 117
Which, I will add before reading skills decline further, was precisely the point of my post. So your post is to emphasize this point?
Christy,
Back in Watergate and Viet Nam, many of us finally took it to the streets. It had to be done.
I’m sure many of us feel this “in our guts” and sense we are too old to do it again. There was a comment recently asking where the young people are.
It was the massive marches and demonstrations that could not be ignored.
WE ARE BEING IGNORED and we are beyond disheartened.
Just so you know, I read nearly everything but have lost the desire to post. I thought that challenging memes that are developed here might be healthy, but maybe I was wrong.
It might be interesting to break out the Doobie Brothers “Takin it to the Streets” and see what the temperature is of FDL.