
Many progressives and anti-war activists were dismayed recently when Joe Sestak joined forces with Rahm Emanuel, Steny Hoyer and 83 other Democrats and all but 2 Republicans to pass the Emergency Supplemental Funding Bill last week. That vote, obviously, raises the question: does he belong on the Blue America list?
Unlike Chris Carney, who hid behind his staff and shameful Republican talking points when we asked him about deceptive votes, Joe stepped forward immediately and asked to talk to our community. He isn't apologizing; he wants to engage in a discussion about why he voted the way he did and how that fits into his ideas for disengaging from Iraq. Tomorrow's session should be… interesting.
Last year Blue America endorsed Admiral Joe Sestak for Congress and he beat crooked Republican Curt Weldon, an incumbent of two decades, in Pennsylvania's 7th CD, 56-44%. One month before the election Blue America hosted Joe at Firedoglake for a q&a and we raised $13,500 for him from 815 members of our community. Congressman Sestak will be back to tell us what he's been up to since we last talked with him this Saturday at noon (EST).
Progressive Punch rates every single member of Congress based on how they vote. If someone was progressive on every roll call they would get 100 points. If someone was reactionary on every roll call they would get 0 points. The lowest score is 0.39 for Doug Lamborn the extreme right wing kook in Colorado's 5th CD who beat Blue America Fighting Dem Jay Fawcett last year, 59-41%. The best score is 99.21 and that belongs to Brooklyn freshman Yvette Clarke. Here are the voting scores for the 2 dozen most progressive freshmen in Congress:
* Yvette Clarke (D-NY) 99.21
* Hank Johnson (D-GA) 98.83
* Keith Ellison (D-MN) 98.82
* Mazie Hirono (D-HI) 98.03
* Peter Welch (D-VT) 97.25
* David Loebsack (D-IA) 96.86
* Steve Cohen (D-TN) 96.48
* John Sarbanes (D-MD) 96.48
* Michael Arcuri (D-NY) 96.09
* Betty Sutton (D-OH) 96.06
* Paul Hodes (D-NH) 95.70
* Kathy Castor (D-FL) 95.29
* Joe Courtney (D-CT) 94.92
* Carol Shea-Porter (D-NH) 94.92
* Albio Sires (D-NJ) 94.72
* Bruce Braley (D-IA) 94.53
* Phil Hare (D-IL) 94.53
* Steve Kagen (D-WI) 94.53
* Chris Murphy (D-CT) 94.51
* John Yarmuth (D-KY) 94.51
* John Hall (D-NY) 94.07
* Joe Sestak (D-PA) 93.75
* Jerry McNerney (D-CA) 92.58
* Tim Walz (D-MN) 92.58
No one in Congress has a 100. The highest scores of any non-freshmen belong to Raul Grijalva (D-AZ) at 97.92, and 3 congresswomen in the 96 range, Barbara Lee (D-CA), Janice Schakowsky (D-IL), and Linda Sanchez (D-CA). For sake of comparison, Nancy Pelosi has a 93.58, Maxine Waters has a 93.26, Barney Frank has a 92.95, Henry Waxman has a 91.94. Gene Taylor (the Mississippi Democrat who votes most frequently with the Republicans) has a 49.71 and the Republican who votes most frequently with the Democrats, Chris Shays has a 31.09. Mean Jean Schmidt has a 3.58 and Marilyn Musgrave has a 2.53.
The first piece of legislation the admiral-turned-congressman, by then a member of the House Armed Services Committee, wrote and introduced when he got to Washington was H.R. 960 (co-sponsored by fellow freshmen Carol Shea-Porter and Steve Cohen), “Enhancing America's Security through Redeployment from Iraq Act.” It mandates the end of funding for the occupation of Iraq after December 31, 2007. When I spoke to Joe on the phone yesterday, in preparation for our live blog session tomorrow he emphasized to me his adherence– backed by a consistent voting record– to a "date certain" end to the occupation of Iraq.
Many progressives and anti-war activists were dismayed when Rep. Sestak joined forces with Rahm Emanuel, Steny Hoyer and 83 other Democrats and all but 2 Republicans to pass the Emergency Supplemental Funding Bill last week. That vote, obviously, raises the question: does he belong on the Blue America list?
Unlike Chris Carney, who hid behind his staff and shameful Republican talking points when we asked him about deceptive votes, Joe stepped forward immediately and asked to talk to our community. He isn't apologizing; he wants to engage in a discussion about why he voted the way he did and how that fits into his ideas for disengaging from Iraq. Tomorrow's session should be… interesting.
If you'd like to prepare, here is Joe Sestak's entire congressional record and here are the relevant parts of a letter he sent to an antiwar constituent complaining about his vote for the Supplemental:
My position on the Iraq War has been consistent since I placed my name into consideration to become your Congressman. I have always demanded a withdrawal of American combat troops from Iraq by the end of 2007, which was the goal of the first piece of legislation I sponsored. I voted for the first emergency supplemental bill (HR 1591) that included a timetable for withdrawal. President Bush subsequently vetoed that bill. However, in light of my thirty-one years of military experience and firsthand knowledge of military operations and logistics, I must heed our collective obligation to support the American and coalition personnel (military and civilian) who are bravely serving in harms way. They are our sons and daughters, our sisters and brothers, our neighbors and friends. They deserve our full support as long as they serve. Sen. Jim Webb of Virginia, a Vietnam veteran and a noted opponent of President Bush’s war policy, as well as the father of a soldier currently serving in Iraq, voted in favor of the supplemental funding bill. I agree with Sen. Webb and many other administration critics that we must pursue a sound strategy leading up to what will be a very difficult troop withdrawal; however, I will not sacrifice our military and civilian personnel to make a political point.
I am aware that my vote on this important issue goes against the sentiments of some of my most ardent supporters. You must understand my decision in the context of the life and death struggle our forces and civilians are currently facing in Iraq and Afghanistan. I have enclosed an editorial that I have written to explain my position more fully, and I will continue to work to end our involvement in Iraq’s civil war.
And here's the May 27th OpEd Joe wrote for the local newspapers in his district, in the hope of letting his constituents know why he voted the way he did:
Last week, Congress voted on an emergency supplemental bill for Iraq and Afghanistan. It was not what I wanted– it did not contain a date certain for redeployment that I had previously voted for and President Bush had vetoed. But it provided the resources our troops needed to be safe until September. I could not deprive the men and women of our armed forces those funds required for their security until they redeploy.I saw combat in Afghanistan and Iraq. The first was a just war; the second, a tragic misadventure. And since the day I announced for Congress, I have never deviated from what I said that day: a date certain to redeploy from Iraq within a year is the only viable strategy that will change the incentives for the political leaders of Iraq– along with Iran's and Syria's– to change their behavior and work for stability and an unfailed Iraqi state.
But I've run the Navy's $67 billion annual warfare program, and I know that annual defense money is only so fungible between defense funding accounts, and the account called "operations" will run out in July. The practical result is an America unable to then provide its servicemen and women what they need to defend themselves in Iraq or Afghanistan. I also know that redeploying out of an area of conflict is the most challenging of military operations, and to do it safely for our 140,000 military personnel– and the thousands of US civilians in Iraq– will take at least six months.
After 31 years of military service, I will never place at risk the lives of those America has sent overseas to fight for us. They are our sons and daughters, whose safety is our paramount concern. I therefore voted to ensure they had the means for their security, while we continue to work to end this conflict by a date certain. I will never vote to have our service members' safety be caught between Congress and a President who we might hope will blink. "Hope" is not a strategy.
This war is not President Bush's war; it is America's war, true whenever its sons and daughters are fighting overseas. I therefore have great faith that Americans across the political spectrum will increasingly come together after this vote and work for an end date of what can no longer be an open ended commitment in Iraq– not just for our service members' security, but for America's.
I have worked, and will continue to work, in Congress for a date certain to redeploy within the year. I have never deviated from this strategy, not even in this vote to ensure our sons and daughters are safe until then. This is because an established end date where the United States will no longer be in Iraq is the only remaining U.S. leverage to force the Iraqis to assume responsibility for their nation, and make the difficult political compromises that will stop the civil war we are currently refereeing.
There is no military solution to this civil war… it will take the reality that we will no longer be there to contain the worst of instability in order for Iran and Syria to stop their destructive efforts, fearful that instability will then flow over their borders. And it is this reality of our redeployment that will force the Iraqis to stop pursuing their personal fiefdoms in their government ministries while we provide them political and military cover, rather than their working for political solutions.
I know; when Senator Hagel and I spoke with Prime Minister Maliki and other Shia and Kurd leaders, we heard them disparage the proposed re-Baathification legislation to permit the Sunnis to be a more viable part of the government– just after our Ambassador, Ryan Crocker, and General Petraeus stated it was of the utmost importance. Perhaps of even greater importance, redeployment changes Iran's and Syria's incentives to work toward stability: they do not want to face the flow of 4 million refugees dislocated in Iraq coming across their borders, or to be in a proxy war in Iraq between what are now two "allied" nations, one primarily Sunni (Syria) and the other Shia (Iran).
There is another strategy to bring about a stable Iraq, one where we will not be in Iraq and where we can begin to address our other security concerns that have been negatively impacted abroad and at home by our involvement in Iraq, beginning in Afghanistan. It is a date certain which begins a true exit strategy so we can begin to apply our resources elsewhere in the world: where terrorists are and where emerging nations, such as in the Western Pacific, have growing political and economic interests, and therefore influence, that may challenge ours. And it begins to repair our army at home, where not one unit is of sufficient readiness to deploy elsewhere in the world if a conflict were to erupt.
This is why I remain committed to working on a date certain for redeployment and why I submitted legislation within weeks of being sworn-in that called for a date certain by the end of this year, with no funding thereafter for U.S. forces within Iraq- but it must be a redeployment where we ensure that our troops can get home safely. Therefore, my vote had to do with their safety and we must now work to have the next vote be about America's security.
It seems to me that he is saying that Bush, by vetoing the appropriations bill that Congress passed (because it included a timetable for withdrawal) is threatening to put our military personnel in grave danger. To me that says "immediate impeachment" and a treason trial. Like I said, we can get into all this with Congressman Sestak tomorrow. And, by the way, he's also been leading the battle to fix No Child Left Behind and has a number of other issues to talk about.
Related posts:
- Supplemental: Why Must Progressive Members of Congress Grovel For the Blue Dogs?
- Red State Targets Blue Dogs Who Vote for IMF Bailout
- Rahm’s Whipping on the Afghanistan War Supplemental — Will You?
- GOP Will Target Blue Dogs Who Vote “Yes” on IMF, Senior Republican Campaign Official Confirms
- Kucinich, Woolsey Urge Colleagues to Vote “No” on Supplemental





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Martinis!
Hiya Howie!
Hey Howie, how goes the fight?
I’m counting on the community to figure this all out.
howieklein @ 4
Few things in this life are black & white(unless you are George Bush).
AZ Matt @ 5
OK… I see it like that too
howieklein @ 4
As we are continually reminded by the realities of Congress, NO one is 100% pure on every topic. Sometimes we must trust the judgement of folks like Adm Sestak. While keeping a close eye on them at all times of course.
Apart from the fact that nothing in the bill had any bearing on the ’safety’ of the troops that was not already beyond the ability of anyone to allay, i guess it’s as good an answer as any…
./
Thanks so much for this post, Howie — it is a supurb start to a conversation. And I have to say that Joe Sestak gets points from me for beingwilling to stand up and have the conversation with everyone like a grown-up instead of hiding from it — that is what adults do, and so kudos to him for that.
I do hope that we have a good conversation with him about this tomorrow. And I really appreciate all the work that you put into this to make it happen, Howie — very much appreciated.
It should be quite the thread and discussion. I don’t know if I’ll be able to be around for it, but if not, I look forward to reading it afterwards!
With Joe’s firsthand experience in “military operations and logistics,” I’d love to hear him speak out more on the notion of funding a war for five years on “supplemental” appropriations. To me, that sounds like those who are running the war have no sense of planning, and must do it all on the fly.
Similarly, if Joe is so committed to a “date certain,” he could be just the person to reach out to those dems who want us to leave but are afraid of offering a firm date. I’d love to hear him make the case for this again and again and again when someone stands up and says “that just emboldens our enemies.”
It’s one thing when someone like my rep — Pete Stark — say something like that, and it can be dismissed as just another Bay Area liberal. But Sestak . . . not so much.
Thanks for the heads up, Howie!
I guess the thing that would anger me the most was if it was a political calculation which it doesn’t seem to be. So I will trust his judgement.
He comes across as a person who thinks farther ahead than I do, which is a good thing.
At least he can put his reasons forward and not hide behind his staff.
I can fathom his reasoning and not find fault.
Bush is ultimately responsible for what happens to our troops and has thrown them repeatedly into the breach with no clear mission or end game plans.
If Sestak has a withdrawal strategy then let us get behind it to stop the endless bloodshed.
Hi Howie — great to see you.
It’s been suggested that some Dems voted for this atrocity because Bush would literally leave our kids stranded in the desert and starving. This could very well be the case: he’s shown nothing but contempt for servicemen his entire adult life.
But we should have forced him on the issue. Instead, we’ve become complicit and they’re gonna use it against us. Come September, if the Republicans decide it’s no longer politically useful to warmonger, they will bill any decision to withdraw as their own.
Tactically useless and strategically catastrophic.
Howie, thanks for all your great work.
This is a really off the wall idea, but maybe one alternative way (different from the main thrust of all your great work) of influencing Steny Hoyer type Dems is to target some of the worst of worst in the GOP? Even if we replace a sub-human, what-would-Jesus-do-dying-on the-cross-for-our-sins-neocon with a moderate Republican, one who actually believes in the rule of law, it might help improve the level of discourse in DC?
It actually might be easier in some races, with some groups of FDLers, to raise money to unseat
someone we really really dislike? Sorry if some iteration of this has already been suggested.
Interesting to find out that the two new Democratic congresspersons are rated 85% and 88%. It is funny because the Repugs are running adds stating they vote with that scary Pelosi 100% of the time.
And anything is better than Old JD Hayworth and Kolbe. BTW…. little factoid….. old Hayworth has a local radio show 4-7pm on KFYI … the drive time slot to spew his hate and lies.
Christy,
Are you saying that the adults haven’t been around in regards to this administration? *g*
Is anyone here as excited about Mazie Hirono as am I?
katymine @ 15
Glad I don’t live within range of that signal.
Gonzo live C-Span at 2pm Eastern time. Any idea what’s up??? I just logged on and haven’t read any comments yet. Sorry if you’ve already discussed this. Off to read comments and posts…
Christy Hardin Smith @ 9
Thanks Christy. Although I didn’t agree with Rep. Sestak I have tremendous admiration for him and I respect the way he’s looking at this. It’s different from my way of looking at it but I don’t doubt his sincerity. And I always admire someone willing to walk into a caveful of lions. Carney wouldn’t even get on the phone!
Steve Cohen is also very interesting. He is such an improvement over Harold Ford. I hope the people of Memphis know this.
John Casper @ 14
I’ve talked about other groups who work that way– People For the American Way, for example, as well as HRC and some unions. It isn’t a “wrong” approach, but in the end I’d rather we spent our money on burying them than making them more viable. Besides, I’ve noticed that even their most insane far right extremists– like Mean Jean– get challenged not by moderates but by kooks even further right!
pointecoupeedemocrat @ 17
Yes
Hey, Howie,
Adm. – now Rep. Sestak – is becoming the most fascinating freshman congressman to me. Reading his statement above shows far more knowledge about how our system does and doesn’t work than one usually sees in the US House. I’ll try to stop by tomorrow.
Things about to go over the edge up here for the Ted Stevens crime family. Thanks for continuing to cover the issues as they pop out at us.
Sestak gave one of the most masterful TV appearances I can remember seeing when he was on “Meet the Russert”
http://www.crooksandliars.com/…..-the-wall/
Still don’t understand his argument that the troops safety was in doubt. If they kept sending Shrub a “date certain” bill, Sestak is saying that the Humvees would literally run out of gas in the desert as they were trying to leave?!? Don’t think so, but maybe he knows something we don’t.
His voting record and what he says make me think he knows what he’s doing, but time will tell. If the date is not certain, there is one other certainty: 100s of more US troops will die, and 1000s of innocent (and some not so innocent) while our Congress plays their games. Interested in hearing Sestak defend this certainty tomorrow.
howie, i agree with your interpretation, but i feel it is tucked into the letter. those who voted for the bill have to discuss the quandary in which they felt they were placed as a result of the president’s obstinance. all of the statements i have read from those who voted for the supplemental have failed to do this, in my opinion, and i believe it is a grave error.
pointecoupeedemocrat @ 21
I hope so too. The extremely corrupt and reactionary Ford machine is planning to knock him out with a primary. That’s why I put him on our BlueAmerica page so fast.
howieklein @ 23
good. i am glad to here, as i notice she has not received a lot of media attention. she and cohen both replaced dlc centrists, and i really want to hear more about their politics and their positions on various issues. i know this is a sestak thread, but their names crowned the list with which this diary was broached.
howieklein @ 27
good. thank you. we need a loud and brash progressive in the south, and cohen is the only one who is vicariously expressing everything we believe. thank you.
howieklein @ 4
thanks for the heads up, howie.
if there’s any chance that i could be able to participate productively, the psych prep time is a necessity. i am so angry about this.
There’s lotsa bad framing in Congressman Sestak’s words; this one really bugs me:
Those who voted otherwise than you (the majority of your party, sir) were NOT voting to deprive troops of anything. Please don’t frame your own party’s opposition to an illegal occupation in this way.
Also:
Neither did the majority of your party, sir, and I resent your speaking of their votes as if they placed anyone at risk. The only risk-placer in Washington is the President — please direct your rhetoric at him, and not at your own party.
Not wild about this, either:
This war IS President Bush’s war, Congressman: it’s a war of choice we were lied into. Please don’t assume responsibility for this war. You were elected to oppose it in all its forms. You must press your party leadership to bring a bill to the floor to end it; did you inquire of them why they did not?
As long as we are debating “the safety of our troops in wartime” the warmongers (of which Admiral Sestak is not one) will win the argument. We must debate “bringing home our brave forces who won the war, now caught in a brutal civil war.”
Also, I’d like to hear Democrats call it what it is: an occupation. You can’t win an occupation; you can’t lose one, either. Let’s step out of the win/lose frame — and talk more about bringing troops home safely from the occupation of Iraq.
(My two cents, in nickel form)
Ed*ard Teller @ 24
I did a little run-down of the father and son crime team, Ted and Ben Stevens, at Down With Tyranny yesterday. I’m reading a great book on Alaska, The Yiddish Policemen’s Union, so I have my eyes more open than usual about what’s up there.
TeddySanFran @ 31
i share these sentiments, teddy. and i notice these arguments are repeated by those who supported the supplemental. the focus has to be on the obstinance of the republicans in congress and of the unwillingness of the president to consider viable alternatives. the language must be edited in order to reflect these facts.
howieklein @ 32
the author’s writing studio abuts my back yard in Berkeley.
very cool .. .looking forward to hearing from him …
So…blackmail works. Holding the troops hostage works. I don’t get it. If we do give idiot in chief the money, the troops stay. if we don’t, the troops stay. If “progress is made” they stay. If “progress isn’t made” they stay.
Congress continues to try and reason with irrationality. This is a disaster. Pull the plug on Bush’s murderous mess. Now.
Thanks Howie, and bravo to Joe Sestak for coming aboard tomorrow to have a dialogue.
btw, no word from Courage Chris Carney. Time for a registered letter this weekend, I guess.
pointecoupeedemocrat @ 28
Actually, my congresswoman, Yvette Clarke topped the list.
Regarding the continuing funding (via supplementals) I still want to know where everyone (including Sestak) stands regarding the September “review” of the (now-completed) surge. I thought that that was the best chance of roping in enough republicans to get this thing done.
-MS
punaise @ 34
Do you know him well enough to get 25 signed copies for us?
You voted to give George Bush carte blanche in Iraq for 4 more months. Your vote did not protect our soldiers but keeps them in danger in the middle of a senseless, unjustified, and stupid war. You gave Bush the dollars to get several hundred more of our soldiers killed and even more maimed. And you think that’s supporting our troops? I am so tired of all these equivocations. The crux of the matter is this: Voting to get more of our troops killed is not supporting them, period.
Michael in Park Slope @ 38
i do not know a lot about her. please tell us about yvette. i do know she signed the letter asking the presidential candidates to attend the fox news debate. and while others might dismiss her on those grounds, i am still interested in her and her politics. please tell.
You will NEVER hear me say that this is America’s war.
It is, has been, and always will be BUSH’S War — based on lies, spun out of minds obsessed with chasing the dragon of democracy imposed from above, romancing the Rapture, and Armageddon-ward bound.
If we manage to keep the Idiot-in-Chief from nuking someone before he’s impeached or his term expires it will be a major miracle.
I look forward to this conversation tomorrow. In the meantime, I would recommend to anybody here Glenn Greenwald’s post on the false presumption that the troops will be left to suffer with a lack of funding.
TeddySanFran @ 31
Brother, please spare more nickels. (youtube link)
do-si-do @ 36
With characters like Bush and Cheney nothing will work short of impeachment. And, when I brought that up to Sestak he pointed out that there’s not a chance in the world the Senate would go for it.
Howie, I made sure Ed*ard Teller saw your piece yesterday.
He is all over that situation but it is a good piece so I linked to it here.
howieklein at 10:06 am
Thanks very much for the excellent response.
howieklein @ 39
we’re barely acquainted, but I’ll look into it.
I would like to know too how Joe sees this Septemeber review and if it an actual measure for him, or just something to be swept under the rug. The administration as been hedging on this since they said there would be a report to congress. Is it feet-to-the-fire time?
Hugh @ 40
Hugh, I hope you’ll be back here at noon tomorrow to repeat those words to Rep. Sestak. I’d like to hear how he responds.
Dover Bitch @ 43
perhaps sestak can discuss the logistics of transferring funds from one account to another, as he cites this as justification for his vote.
TeddySanFran @ 31
Awesome rebuttal, tsf. I sincerely thank you for this.
pointcoupeedemocrat:
Since she is a freshman, I don’t know much about her either, ‘tho I did vote for her. Her district covers much of Bedford Stuyvesant and Park Slope here in Brooklyn; those two constituencies automaticaly make her a progressive. But until seeing her credentials above, I guess I didn’t know just how much. I will attempt to find out more, possibly over the weekend.
-MS
This is great, Howie, thanks for setting this up. Rep. Sestak deserves respect for being willing to come here and talk about this and I hope people will show up and discuss the matter frankly with him. It’s a very good opportunity.
OK, this is the one that jumps out at me. THis is straight out of Bush’s playbook.
So, we’ll sacrifice our military and civilian personnel to make an ego point? Screw that.
Dover Bitch @ 43
That’s a very good post to bring up. Anyone who hasn’t read it certainly should, and I think the points Glenn brings up are central to what this conversation is about.
It’s his loss.
John Casper @ 57
:~)… our respective cats are on excellent terms.
Howie,
Great work in getting Sestak to come on over and have a dialog. Obviously, with my current churlish attitude I will sit it out, but will be cheering everyone on (including Sestak) for having an actual dialog about stuff that matters. Very rare.
Thank you.
While we are on the subject of framing, let’s talk about failure vs losing. Losing means we got beat, failure means the team bus went to the wrong stadium. It cracks me up when the dickhead Rethugs talk about a surrender date, they are so pathetic.
pointecoupeedemocrat @ 51
As Glenn writes in that post, the real question is why is the public under the illusion that our troops might be stuck without bullets or armor? The answer is because these politicians keep saying it.
Another question is why Bush has to ask for emergency spending in the first place?
TSF #31,
I don’t always agree with you, but man, you hit that one out of the park!
howieklein @ 50
I’ll copy them and hopefully post them verbatim tomorrow. No more free passes.
Twisted Martini @ 60
Surrender, War-o-thee
Rep Sestak alluded to playing political games with troops/troop funding. This is also right-wing propaganda. Iraq War is now being played like Viet Nam was played – how can we get out and not look like we lost. Death in Viet Nam continued for many years so that political leaders wouldn’t look bad.
Bushco has said that the next guy will have to clean up his mess. Any continuance of Bush’s war helps Bush pin the blame on the next administration. The dems are Charlie Brown kicking at Lucy’s football again. Lucy always pulls the football away and tricks him because Charlie is a dumbass.
TSF 31
You nailed it.
You have to appreciate the experience and viewpoint of Sestak. But we lost the message and the vote on this one – it was a lose/lose.
Apologies to all for Colorado’s fault in this loss: my Rep. Lamborn is a certifiable moron as Howie noted. And the perpetually and profoundly timid Ken Salazar raised the white flag to Bush even as the veto ink on the tougher bill was still wet.
Michael in Park Slope @ 53
Not really. The Congressional Black Caucus spans the entire ideology, from real progressives like Yvette and John Lewis (GA) to reactionary whores like Al Wynn (MD) and David Scott (GA)– not to mention Harold Ford. Even solidly blue minority districts don’t guarantee a progressive represenentative. Which is why we have to watch closely.
do-si-do @ 55
This is a disturbing trend along with Webb’s vote. These great white hopes elected as Democrats from among the military brass seem to reflexively resuscitate this bullshit, and even believe it.
does anyone else notice a pattern in terms of talking points?
the albany projectkirsten gillibrand:
jason altmire
i do see a few similarities between these statements. what do you think?
howieklein @ 68
I don’t have a lot of respect for the CBC, especially in light of recent events. But I DO know my C.D.; it’d be impossible for a non-progressive to be elected here. BTW, not only Bedford Stuyvesant: Park Slope is one of the bluest neighborhoods in all of NYC.
-MS
It seems to me that he is saying that Bush, by vetoing the appropriations bill that Congress passed (because it included a timetable for withdrawal) is threatening to put our military personnel in grave danger. To me that says “immediate impeachment” and a treason trial.
I have a very hard time disagreeing with that one. And with the president having said that if Iraq asks us to leave, that we will do so, while still refusing to listen to his own Congress and constituents, it seems that this vote was badly botched, in that it was such a perfect opportunity to force the president to frame himself as a war-monger.
TeddySF @31 said it all quite well, and I’d ask unanimous consent to join in his comment.
P.S. Given what Bush said about what he’d do if the Iraqi’s ask us to leave, I guess the only thing we can be certain of is that they will never be given the opportunity to have either a national referendum, nor a parliamentary vote on the issue. Otherwise, he’d have never said such a thing.
Michael in Park Slope @ 53
Speaking of Brooklyn congresscritters, it is worth mentioning that the elections do not occur in November, since repubs don’t run here. I am just over the line from Yvette’s district in the 10th of Edolfus Townes (who did vote “no” — but shows up to actually vote less than half the time). Very often (always???) the winner of the primary is backed by the very powerful (and in many ways very corrupt local dem party machine). Both of the primaries in the 10th and 11th congressional districts were quite wild this time, as there were so many people running–which usually benefits the party-anointed candidate.
howieklein @ 45
This is the point when I go completely off my rocker…We have the tools. We have the technology. doesn’t anyone in Congress have hair on their peaches?
OK I’ll stop. I know the Ladies of the Lake and visitors are worn out. As am I. I’m trying really hard to behave.
Oh, and a pat on the back, Howie, for staying so focused during the fires a while back. Pretty gnarly, dude. Peace.
Zappatero @ 67
And now Salazar seems to be involved in trying to sabotage Angie’s run for congress and getting a conservative staffer of his own to run against Musgrave.
OT–
Hey punaise: Didn’t know until last night (watching the S-Bee) that you’re a bedbug. Never thought to look it up. Mon Dieu! I thought you made it up.: pun-a l’aise… per exemple.
RonD @ 62
I second that! Friggin’ awesome.
TSF, maybe you should write speeches for Pelosi or something? How can we get your talking points into Congress?
Biodun @ 76
I thought it was made up too. Like pun plus mayonaise. Like a spread of puns. It’s punalicious.
And oh, I’m glad my Congressman is third on the list.
do-si-do — Don’t misunderstand what I said in the prior thread: political disagreement on the merits and the facts is not only appropriate but altogether welcome dialogue. Invective launched at each other or at guests because they don’t think exactly like you do or like you want them to think? THAT is a horse of a different color. There is a social distinction there, but an important one — and that is where the friction arises. But discussion of ideas to get to the bottom of things or to debate facts or to truly have a discussion — and not just hurl unsourced talking points at one another? That’s why we are here, isn’t it?
I met Joe Sestak durring his campaign at a friends house/fundraising party. I donated to his campaign. The man struck me with his absolute sincerity. He an my congressman Patrick Murphy just seemed like people who wanted to get after getting the troops out. P Murphy voted against the supplemental and J Sestak voted for it. I pounded his congressional email and heard a we will get back to you answer. I am really looking forward to this tomorrow. I just want to know why he thinks defunding was dangerous to the troops, I did here the military doesn’t have a withdrawl plan.
brendan @ 69
I am disturbed his vote, but I don’t want to give up on Webb yet. He really impressed me during the campaign as a person of integrity, and his own son is over there in that hellhole.
I wish we could get HIM on here….I really would like to know what he is thinking. I know he supports a diplomatic solution, but that just ain’t gonna happen with this hit paraade of a**holes.
I’ve been interested in Hank Johnson after seeing him in action during a committee hearing. He’s second on the list and comes across well when speaking. Would like to see him and Ellison speak more for Democrats.
Interesting tidbit from Congresspedia:
“Johnson and Rep. Mazie Hirono (D-Hawaii) became the first Buddhists to serve in Congress in January 2007. [5]”
OT:
Broder answers my question:
New York: Your column about the bipartisan effort to change the President’s position on the Iraq occupation, being led by Lamar Alexander and Ken Salazar made no mention of the administration’s recent announcement that the plan is to retain a large force occupying Iraq for “the next 50 years.” At the Hill this morning, Mort Kondracke writes that this legislation is designed to provide a foundation for that permanent occupation. Did this issue not come up in your discussions? Is John Warner aware of these plans?
David S. Broder: I cannnot speak for Senator Warner, but the Iraq Study Group plan envisaged a residual American force in Iraq, training and fighting alQaeda, for an indefinite period. So that would not be inconsistent with what Alexander and Salazar are proposing.
————————-
Talk about burying the lede. He thinks a new “bipartisan centrist” direction is more important than the a permanent occupation of Iraq.
Excellent point, Howie.
i have remarked before about my skepticism of “lifers’” conversions.
there’s no WAY a retired ADMIRAL (my, god, ya gotta stay in and stay clean and suck up like a GODD8MN MOFO for 25 years just to be considered for fleet rank) is gonna become a ‘progressive.’
the usual ‘lifer’ approach (i dunno about slestak in particular) is to have tactical objections to the way ‘the job’ is being done, without any DEEP criticism of the reasons ‘the job’ was necessary to begin with…
.
jayt @ 72
Well, I’m just a commenting machine today.
Bush is happy to frame himself as a warmonger. He just loves those wartime powers. Second. He will say anything if it gets him what he wants. He’s in full manipulation mode all the time.
It doesn’t care if anyone holds him to what he says afterwards. He is unapologetic about lying because it isn’t wrong. It is something he needs to do and we should all understand that. A political necessity. Example: supporting Rumsfeld before the 2006 elections…
It doesn’t have to make sense. It just has to get Bush what he wants. Endless war and chaos.
Biodun @ 85
IL-05 is a prime example, a 33/67 bush/kerry district. emanuel voted for the supplemental.
A personal anecdote about votes and why it’s important to understand someone’s reasoning behind any particular vote he makes.
This has been on my mind for a while. Once upon a time, I was a member of an environmental activist group. Our director had us run a faux senate (we were assigned sides as in a debate) on an environmental issue: Disposal of medical waste.
I was assigned the “pro” position, but ended up voting against it because of certain concerns about the cost and location, etc. It was hard to do. But I learned a lot about the process.
Any elected official needs to be able to explain his vote and be heard.
Now to go back and finish reading this fine post & comments.
Thans Howie for all you do!!!
howieklein @ 45
Another reminder of how much easier everything would be today if the Senate had passed Feingold’s censure resolution. There would be a precedent already for holding him accountable. I know it had no chance of passing, but the Dems showed no spine. A bad sign of things to come.
pointecoupeedemocrat @ 88
Chicago is its own weird animal. I was there last weekend and sat with a dozen bloggers who all seemed to agree that Democrats there are willing to accept the most corrupt boss-driven politics in the U.S. (of which Emanuel is a product) in return for… how beautiful the city looks.
oddmommy @ 82
Webb particularly impressed me with his Iran bill, he still strikes me as “sincere” in wanting to end the war – indeed, it’s why he ran — his rebuttal to the SOTU was great, all that…which is why his vote’s so baffling. I can only chalk it up to a kind of loyalty to his former profession that supersedes his judgment about what’s best for the country.
howieklein @ 91
but a lot of the democratic bloggers there are willing to roll over for an occassional bone from emanuel. witness the cegelis-duckworth scandal. and yes, some of these bloggers have admitted to being told that they would have no future in politics if they did not support duckworth.
BTW Mr. Klein, many thanks for the ProgressivePunch.org tip. What a great resource!
that SOTU, not SOP.
[Fixed by mod]
I appreciate that Rep. Sestak has engaged us in a conversation about his vote on the Iraq supplemental bill. But his rationale is the same as the other Democrats in whom I am disapointed; namely, that we can’t cut funding for the troops while they are engaged in combat. By that logic, how would you ever de-fund a war?
His reasoning seems to assume that if Congress denied funds to continue the war in Iraq, then Bush would leave the troops in the field anyway, under-armed and and under-supplied. If Mr. Sestak truly believes that to be the case, then it’s obvious that Bush is immoral and incompetent and beyond redemption, and thus should not be trusted to continue prosecuting the war.
Rep. Sestak is clearly one of the good guys in Congress; but IMHO he and the other Democrats who voted as they did are caught in a logical trap of their own making.
Fan Mail for Howie: I love your world headquarters. I love all you do.
I admire the admiral for talking with us. I would not put it past Bush to punish the troops for “our” behavior, so I am open to the pro-vote argument, if that was truly a threat. What alternative universe does the senate live in that they cannot see what
Louis XVIBushco is doing to this country and that he needs to be removed?Christy Hardin Smith @ 80
Yes. Yes!
But I know I let it fly when I’m emotional. So I have enough self-awareness to know I should sit it out rather than risk crossing the line between discourse and quickly disintegrating to full frustration mode of hurling crap out of my mouth. So I’m voluntarily disqualifying myself.
I admire the self-control of simmering anger and ability to keep one’s self focused on the point of the discussion that others here demonstrate time and again.
That is what I meant. And thank you for the reassurance and invitation to participate. This is a very cool place to know about and participate in. I’ve gone to other sites to read and lurk, but this one is very welcoming and user-friendly for all comers. Cheers.
Abu up on Cspan-1 re: “violent crime” it says…
brendan @ 92
I am not saying I agree with it, but this E.J.Dionne column (though not mentioning Webb) suggests a possible alternative explanation for Webb’s and some of the other yes votes.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..02155.html
itwasntme @ 99
It’s a retrospective on his time as Attorney General then?
Hugh @ 101
As WH counsel…a “how to” seminar perhaps?
trying to breath deep here and think…
if there’s nothing congress can/should do to end an occupation like iraq – then should anti-war activists ignore all congressional electoral politics and focus on the next presidential election?
is that what representative sestak is saying?
[i hope it’s obvious that i’m not talking about voting - just the limited resources of $ and volunteer time]
oddmommy #100:
It’s not necessarily the vote itself, but the stab-in-the-back rhetoric accompanying it.
howieklein @ 91
That’s similar to the situation in Alaska, where both the GOP and Dems want to pave the state over in asphalt to help them get to the next well-head – it’s just that the Dems prefer the work to be done by unions, the GOP prefer it to be done by scabs.
pointecoupeedemocrat
bon jour, cher!
20 years ago–right after i finished a masters at lsu and before i started the ph.d.–i usta cover pointe coupee city/parish council and school board for the Mourning Inadequate…
itwasntme @ 99
Does anyone know if he’s gonna take questions? I’ll hang on until then if there’s that possibility, but I will not stand his spewing to me about “what’s right about America”
Gonzales is talking on C-Span about violent crime prevention. How dare he flaunt his lawlessness and spout things he in no way believes like what makes America great. He is really enjoying what he is doing to this country. Smirker. Liar. Incompetent.
Yay, Jan Schakowsky! I’m blessed with a liberal congressperson!
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 106
a lot has changed since then. we now have two public high schools.
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 106
the mourning inadequate. i guess it is now the advocate. it has been years since i heard someone refer to it as the morning advocate. et a va, cher?
Very nicely said. I would only add this question, “How much of this cash goes to our military, and how much goes to corperate contractors?” Because this is not JUST Bush’s war, it is also the war of the rich SOB corporations that he was placed in power to represent. And surely Joe knows this by now.
Sorry, no free pass.
TeddySanFran @ 31
pointecoupeedemocrat @ 110
a lot has changed since then. we now have two public high schools.
Usta ya had a public high school, mostly for the blacks and the already growing number of latinos; and a ‘Xian’ “Academy” for the white kids…
it always tickled me there were folks named “Ramirez” and “Martinez” (pronounced RAM-irez & MAR-tinez) who scorned the ‘mexicans.’
I’ll probably be banned for this, but after the Nov. 2006 elections and what’s followed so far, I don’t give a FUCK who does what for any Democrat. When it comes to the Democratic Party, I will be an activist no more forever.
I also think anybody who bothers with those traitors is a fool, and you can quote me on that. But I’ll defend to the death your right to be foolish, and if working for the “good cop” wing of the Corporate Authoritarian Party gives you goosebumps, then more power to you.
In any case I’m hopefully shutting up permanently on this, and this will be the last “purity troll” comment this blogger leaves anywhere.
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 113
Usta ya had a public high school, mostly for the blacks and the already growing number of latinos; and a ‘Xian’ “Academy” for the white kids…
it always tickled me there were folks named “Ramirez” and “Martinez” (pronounced RAM-irez & MAR-tinez) who scorned the ‘mexicans.’
i am caucasian, and i attended one of the two public schools. this was in the early 1990s. spanish colonialism in the eighteenth century has resulted in a few people of spanish descent here and there. but the two public schools are split racially: one has 65% caucasian enrollment, while the other has 32% caucasian enrollment.
Sally @ 108
Oh lordy, a standing ovation. I’m going to be sick. What do these people smoke?
After 35 years of voting for Democrats and after 6 very long years of participating in this debate and attempting to encourage the Democrats to become a real opposition party, last week’s massive cave-in by the Democrats was a personal watershed event. From where I stand, there is NO excuse, NO justification, and NO rationalization that makes it right.
In 2006, I agreed to vote Democratic one last time on the outside chance that we have reached a turning point. But the vote for the supplement funding as well as the incompetent performance of the House Judiciary Committee at the Goodling hearing has caused me to finally throw in the towel. So Joe, I respectfully submit that at some point, you just have to stop making excuses. For this adminstration. For this war. For the lack of opposition. For the vote you cast.
Real change will not happen until we stop accepting those excuses. Good luck. Seriously.
Sally @ 108
I’m not clever enough, so I will leave it to more gifted FDL’ers to fill in the blanks:
Gonzo talking about crime prevention is like __________ talking about ___________.
I probably won’t be here for the conversation. I would like for Howie to ask the Congressman this:
The next funding bill is the Defense Authorization bill, which will fund the war for another year. The same logic will apply then: he will have to vote for it to insure that the troops are equipped. How will his bill force our stiff-necked president to end the war, once it has been funded for the whole year?
tewtally EPU’d from previous thread, in response to egregious’s wise words on FDL crankiness/touchiness:
You are so right, egregious. I think people are really hurting over this thing (Iraq vote). I wasn’t as surprised and dejected as so many others have been, I guess because I have become so accustomed to the cynical nature of politics. I used to be an idealist, but no more. I am more of the marathon mentality like you, I guess.
I think everyone needs and deserves a nice cyber-bearhug for caring so much that it hurts.
(((((((egregious))))))
((((((((FDL community)))))))))
(((((((Christy!))))))
(((((((Jane!)))))))
I don’t mean my question at 119 to be snarky: I am simply unclear as to a mechanism to use the power of the purse to stop something once it has been authorized.
Thanks Howie for inviting Admiral Sestak to join us tomorrow. Sorry I won’t be able to be there. (My kid is practising for a Rock Climbing competiton and I am the designated driver.)
This question is probably too blunt to ask tomorrow but I would really like a member of Congress or the Senate to tell me why they decided to do the bill the way they did. The appropriations for VA funding and the minimum wage could have been put into a different bill and not attached to the war funding bill.
Why do so many Dems feel that they must compromise with these fascist thugs in the White House? What has happend to the moral compas of Washington DC. At what point will you draw the line?
Because from over here on the left coast every compromise smacks of just letting them get away with the lying and cheating that has subverted the very core of our governemnt and gotten us into this ugly war. Is it the fact that the media is so partisan that they fear reprisals on the evening news? Or on election day? When will the calculation end and a backbone appear. I would really like an honest answer to this question.
(Sorry Christy, Hope this isn’t too nasty. I know I’m venting some frustration with this question, but I would really like to know the answer. )
John H Farr @ 114
When I was filling out the DCCC survey, they had a question about what did I consider myself: ‘Liberal’, ‘Moderate’, ‘Conservative’, or ‘Other’ [fill in blank]. I checked ‘Other’, and wrote in ‘Radical’. I figure they need to know where the party really is, and I wasn’t going to mince words. Not with them, anyway.
P J Evans @ 123
Welcome to the club!
selise @ 30
That’s how I feel too.
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 86
My understanding is that Admiral Sestak was leaving the Navy one way or the other. You might ask him the reasons, whether they be tactical objections, out-of-line criticisms, or performance related.
Makes a difference.
spurious @ 116, when I heard the applause after the introduction, I knew there was a vetted audience. Someone above wondered if there would be a Q&A session: if so, the questions will all be friendly. My family has a crude saying which I apply to Bush day in and day out: “It’s one thing to s–t on me, but another thing to rub it in. “Rub it in” is what this administration does nonstop.
Where is the University of Massachusetts spirit when it is sorely needed. Boooooo, Abu. This is all so sick.
masaccio @ 119
EXACTLY.
How will the next vote, and the vote after that, and the vote after that — how will any of these not be subject to Sestak’s same logic? As long as American troops are in harm’s way, they are subject to our President — who holds them hostage.
New logic, new thinking, new framing, new arguments are needed right now. Congressman Sestak’s arguments will keep America in Iraq forever. Not the desired outcome.
TROOPS
HOME
NOW
I saw that my question to Chris Dodd was chosen and I appreciate that. I also appreciate Egregious’ transcript of the entire thing.
The question, about the consequences of deployment, was designed to see if Dodd had thought through the problems we are creating by leaving. There will, of course, be serious problems, including the difficult issue of just how we are going to get our people home.
Dodd’s response shows me that he has not fully thought through the issues of leaving. Our departure is as difficult a problem as our leaving. I think the only moral course is leaving, and Dodd thinks so too. However, there are a number of things we can do to ameliorate the problems, and Dodd hasn’t included any of them in his legislation. However, I was impressed with his answer, which indicates that he has considered the other problem I raised, the oil question, on which he responded strongly. He also sees that the issue is complex, which is clear from the notion of adding diplomacy and residual troops to the mix.
It isn’t easy to ask a good question, especially without the ability to follow up on the answer. I tried to ask a question that would accept the premise of the person, and see if they have thought about the consequences of that view. The question I pose for Sestak has the same quality: it accepts his view and asks if he has considered the consequences of that view.
I loved the Vloggformat, just as I love Howie’s Blue America threads. The risk is that we think we are learning something when in fact, we are being fed talking points. I truly hope that we don’t get that from Sestak. The opposite of a talking point is acceptance of the other person’s point of view as valid, coupled with the willingness to change one’s mind when confronted with a better view. Let’s hope we get that with Sestak.
Just wanted to throw this out there, but Carney may not be a huge progressive but he is doing decently well on progressive punch… he has a 82.21% progressive voting record, almost twice that of Gene Taylor…
http://progressivepunch.org/me…..0&y=17
mandrake @ 118, Gonzo talking about crime is like Giuliani, DeLay, Gingrich, McCain, Livington, Limbaugh, O’Reilly, you name ‘im talking about abstinence. And it’s downright disgusting.
De-lurking briefly:
Like all the regular commenters [and lurkers], I was heartsick that the supplemental passed without a deadline and with meaningless benchmarks.
What we are asking the Democrats in Congress to do has never been done: to stop a war in progress by cutting off the funding. This really is a monumental task. I had hopes that they could do it right out of the box, with the momentum of the midterm election behind them. But we are asking them to reverse four years of momentum going in the other direction. Bringing this awful war–and all of the other crimes of this administration–to an end was never going to be easy.
Egregious says it well: it’s a marathon. Let’s just comfort one another after the losses and the setbacks, dust ourselves off, and get back into the race.
Work for peace, every day.
Sally @ 127
I think you’re right, though where they found a whole roomfull of people who could be made to applaud that tool, even at ATF, has me stumped. We are definitely getting rubbed.
TeddySanFran @ 127
this the part i don’t get. does congressman sestak think that congress is not a co-equal branch of government? that the president can do anything with the troops s/he wants?
‘cuz, if i understand the logic – even if congress has a veto-proof majority in congress, if the president threatens to “play hostage” with the troops – then congress should just keep giving blank checks?
is that really it?
Admiral, I respect your service to our nation and I wish to believe you are a person of integrity.
In less than fourteen months, the Dem Leadership will convene in Denver.
The Dem leaders have already sold out Dems with secret trade deals; your vote to continue funding for the war – with whatever fine words you have for your choice deed – also failed to stop the Occuptaion.
You are sophisticated enough to have become an Admiral; you have the reading skills required to know what we all know.
You could have supported the troops and voted to stop the war.
Don’t hide behide semantics, Admiral – that is intellectual cowardice. You are capable of better, and we deserve it.
Don’t lie to us, Admiral.
Screwing over the base on trade didn’t work so well for the Dems in 1999.
Screwing over the base on the war didn’t work so well for the Dems in 1968.
Denver ‘08 = Chicago ‘68 (with Seattle ‘99 on the side).
Admiral, I hope you find the intellectual and moral courage to between now and September to step away from the GOP’s talking points and support the troops by ending this war.
Admiral, when the Russians spun us into one rhetorical trap or another, did you cower in your bunk and give up?
I don’t think so.
Why are you cowering and running before the GOP’s spin?
Oh – the tens of thousands who came back for a second day of tear gas and abuse in Seattle – and then came for more State violence in Quebec, Miami, DC, Philadelphia, LA – we won’t be cowering.
We’ll be on the street in the tens of thousands.
Along with the enviros and steelworkers and war widows, we’l be there to take back our nation from the Rethugs.
I invite you to clear the spin out of your mind and join us – by September of this year.
Walk the walk, Admiral – vote to end the war funding.
All the rest is spin – and we both know it – so cut the crap.
See you in the streets, Admiral – hope you’ll have joined the Dem base by then.
In the meantime, do tell us how your spin saves lives. Nah. Don’t bother. I don’t like to see men I respected grovel and parse to excuse their mistakes.
Just get it right next time, Admiral.
Or get the fuck out of the way.
Sir.
Punchy Progressive @ 130
My issue with Carney isn’t his progressivity, since I know he’s representing a reddish district. My issue is that he looked us in the eye and told us how he’d vote on federal Hate Crimes. He answered ProjectVoteSmart the same way. When the vote came along, he did exactly the opposite. When called on it, he recited right-wing talking points about “special classes.”
Finally, he hasn’t answered any letters asking for donations (provided based on his specific answers) to be returned.
But thanks for his rating, Punchy!
I live in his District and dropped by his office with a “Have a Backbone” flyer from MoveOn urging him to vote no last week. I am dismayed at his explanation that the “account called “operations” will run out in July.” This is buying into what we ALL know is pure baloney. We can defund the war AND remove our troops safely with the BILLIONS we have given this Administration & the Pentagon, etc.
OT to Kirk from last thread.
Sorry no link fro brandied cherries. The recipe is my own- A variation of a Chez Panisse recipe with brandy and amerreto. I’d be happy to share. Though not sure how to send it to you.
Wow Topanga-lib, sounds delicious.
If you have time my addy is kmurphy riseup net
Thanks!
Tracey N @ 137
I really hope constituents will be here for the chat Saturday. Donors and progressive bundlers are one thing — but disappointed and even outraged constituents are something quite again. Please make time in your busy day to join us — I for one will be happy to “yield my time” to those represented by Congressman Sestak.
Let’s hope we get that with Sestak.
Admirals/Generals–field/fleet-grade officers of all ranks, actually–typically do NOT change their minds very often…they get used to being right, and being told they are right; or at least NOT being told they are wrong…it’s that whole ‘command decision’ thing…
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 141
Personally, I have issues with ex-military people in government, period. I’m not sure they ever stop being company men.
From Dan Froomkin today:
“Here’s a blistering analysis of the defense filings from blogger Marcy Wheeler.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..00879.html
Fern @ 142, I, too, have issues with ex-military members in government.
I’m not interested in what Joe Sestak has to say on this. I know only that he voted to give George W. Bush a blank check on Iraq. I’m not interested in hearing Congressman Sestak’s excuses or rationalizations for this vote, nor am I interested in the excuses or bullshit of any other Democratic politician who voted for this craven capitulation.
It’s time for the netroots to stop accepting these pathetic excuses. Since Sestak voted for Bush’s blank check, let him win in 2008 WITHOUT any netroots support. If we hold Congressman Sestak accountable for his Bush-loving vote, then MAYBE other congresspersons will learn from this example that we are not going to be treated like a fucking ATM for the election campaign and then rubed and betrayed on a critical vote like the Capitulation Bill.
It should also be noted that ALL of our new Democratic Senators, many of whom would not have won without our support, were down on their knees before Bush on this vote. Cardin. Klobuchar. McCaskill. Tester. Brown. Casey. Whitehouse. Webb.
We really need to stop allowing ourselves to be used by these Democratic traitors.
Fern @ 142
As a blanket statement, I’m not sure I agree. I was pretty impressed with Wes Clark, and would have voted for him if his candidacy had made it all the way to California.
Anne Haygood @ 145
if you’re talking about the senate vote for h.r.2206 – then you are wrong. whitehouse voted ‘no’.
do-si-do @ 78
well, that’s the side of the family we don’t talk about. preferred translation is thumbtack/pushpin….
Don’t know if I’m going to have time to be near a computer tomorrow, so here goes. Off the top of my head
Admiral Sestak,
I’d like to think that you have a great record considering the alternative and it looks like you have voted in many ways I would approve of, but …
A shorter version in my interpretation of what you are implying above is “We’re there, we have to do this right” (If I’m wrong, I apologize. And btw, that is the completely wrong frame, but anyway). OK, here we go …
You say
Don’t piss on my leg and tell me it’s raining. Where in the bill does it do the following
- Where in the bill does it explain how staying in Iraq is going to make the troops safer?
- Where in the bill does it explain how they are miraculously going to be issued sufficient body armor – and not the insufficient shit they have now – by September? And if it does? Doesn’t that implicitly say we are not going anywhere anytime soon?
- Where in the bill does it explain how they are going to all have up-armored humvees by September? And tangentially, why is it the people in charge didn’t and don’t give them M-113 vehicles that are already deployed in theater (Kuwait, Qatar, ???) to use until they do receive the humvees? (Isn’t safety for the troops the number one concern?) And if it does? Doesn’t that implicitly say that we are not going anywhere anytime soon?
- Where in the bill does it explain why it takes four years to train Iraqi’s to police their own country but it takes mere months to train and send off 18 year olds to the occupation? And how this bill is going to deviate from the last 4 years? And what is the plan for training them? And why isn’t NATO doing the training of Iraqi troops like we were promised they would?
- Where in the bill does it explain how we are or will stop the insurgents/criminals/terrorists/tribal conflicts and exodus of same from areas of escalation of US troops when they can easily leave an area when they receive word of US troop escalations? (whack a mole)
- Where in the bill does it mandate that Iraqi contractors rebuild their own infrastructure? To generate pride among the people
- Where in the bill is an apology for needlessly invading a sovereign nation for insufficient reasons? And tangentially, isn’t invading a country to remove it’s leadership an abrogation of international law? And what is the reason, if not that? Oh, and also btw, is the Iraqi government not in violation of international law? Because if I’m not mistaken a government set up during an occupation by another country is illegal.
I really don’t have time right now to go on but, I have the utmost confidence that if anyone can answer these, you are the one Admiral Sestak
John Casper @ 14
howieklein @ 22
And some of them, when they open their hate-spewing yaps, say something so outrageous, that our friends at Planned Parenthood, PFAW, etc. can generate a few hundred grand using their own words in a fund raising letter! Sure, target some, or most of them, but let’s not forget that sometimes they work for us.
Selise at 147:
You’re right about Whitehouse — I stand corrected. But, of course, my larger point remains. We moved heaven and earth to get these scumbags elected and six months later ALL BUT ONE of our new senators took the thirty pieces of silver.
Anne Haygood @ 151
yup. agreed. (except that i was volunteering on the lamont campaign – if i’d been working on one of the others, i would be even more pissed off).
but whitehouse has been a standout – (have you seen the guy during the senate judiciary committee hearings?)… and and very happy to give kudos where deserved.
Pherris @ 117
Well said, Pherris.
We’re really starting to compete with the “Good Germans” in our attempts to rationalize our inexcusable behavior while still pretending to be a “civilized people.”
Representative Sestak -
On what factual basis, in your editorial, do you claim that our military occupation of Iraq consists of simply “refereeing” a civil war, rather than acting as the primary cause of and instigation for a chaotic Iraqi resistance struggle against our presence?
If you happen to have those basic facts of the reality on the ground wrong, doesn’t that threaten to make your policy decisions based on such mistaken facts terribly misguided and ineffective “solutions,” and dangerously so?
Where does Congress get its information about what is happening on the ground in Iraq? From the Pentagon? From the leadership of the IC? From Blackwater and other war-profiting contractor lobbies? From A*P*C? (Whose foreign-lobby leadership Senator Mikulski of MD admitted in March to speaking to on a daily basis about something…) Or all of the above?
Are you listening to Iraqi sources of information at all? Or to the career mid-level people in the IC who do the actual work? Or to international reporting or intelligence services (other than Israel’s), especially Iranian? Because I have to think that many of these latter sources would be far, far more accurate and credible than anything you are hearing from the censored and politicized leadership of the Bush Executive Branch or their war-profiteering outsourced army of mercenaries (who comprise a great many of the “US civilians” you speak of, I presume).
I do appreciate the details in your editorial – and I hope you can give us more on Saturday. I’d particularly like to know exactly how the funding in the $100 billion supplemental will be spent: for what purposes (supplies for the troops?), programs (training?), equipment (the MRAP vehicle?), and infrastructure (more base construction?), and at what approximate date those items or funds will actually reach the troops in harm’s way, for their intended purpose (if such detail is available to Congress). Because $100 billion dollars is three times more money than the ongoing $2 billion a week burn rate of this occupation for all of June through September. Thus, logically, only a third of this money can seemingly be intended for ongoing “operations” in the theater through the end of September, 2007.
Finally, I thank you very, very much, Rep. Sestak, for putting yourself in a position to confront and answer direct questions from citizens in this way (and as Senator Dodd did earlier this week). Our Members of Congress have indeed become expert at hiding from us, and using C-SPAN to deliver their cover stories before disappearing back into the hidden halls of power. However, only open debate and dialogue with all its attendant airing of disagreements can accurately define the problems we face, and then propose the best and most creative solutions to them, as you obviously recognize.
Thank you Howie and FDL for giving us this opportunity.
I highly recommend both these articles with regard to ‘facts on the ground’ in both Iraq and in the United States Congress:
http://www.alternet.org/module/printversion/52135
Http://www.salon.com/news/feat…..print.html
selise @ 134
This is what so appalls me. We are in desperate straits in this “Constitutional” republic, primarily because of the subservience of our Legislative Branch of government to the Executive Branch of government and to interests other than those of the American people.
The supplemental vote helped to continue the ascendancy of an unchecked and unConstitutional Executive by yet again submerging the Legislative Branch under the dictates of the Executive Branch in a matter of life and death for American citizens. [I realize, of course, that our Two-and-ONLY-Two Party System has allowed this dynamic between the two branches to become as insidious as it has - it’s damage to our Constitutional system caused by the anticipated “factions” that our Founders struggled mightily to prevent, but which has now reached a crisis point.]
Senator Webb seemed to have a good grasp of this decades-long disintegration of the Legislative Branch – the heart and soul of our federal government – as of a month or two ago. He has since fallen silent on this matter, it seems, for unknown reasons. The supplemental vote helped to further solidify that disintegration in very damaging and destructive ways, in addition to continuing a brutal occupation of a foreign nation for unspoken reasons.
I do think, selise, that if a guaranteed override was in hand, Congress would have asserted itself to bring the troops home at some future date over a veto. But that seems to be the extent of their “exertion” anymore — if it’s a cakewalk, it’s doable. If not, all bets are off, and the Constitution becomes “advisory.” After all, the New American Century of Empire doesn’t require a Constitution, or liberties for the little people, or humane and civilized standards of conduct, or taxes — we can get all our ruling elite needs from the natural resources of our newly-conquered colonies and from the cheap labor of their enslaved populations of corporate serfs.
pow wow, thank you for your thoughts and words.
Selise at 152
Selise at 152:
I wonder if we ran into each other on the Lamont campaign trail — my boyfriend and I drove up to CT (from MD) the first week of August and stayed up there going door to door for two weeks, with our three-month-old in tow.
I wonder how Lamont would have voted. I simply do not trust Democrats to do the right thing. I won’t be working for any Dems in 08 — been burned too many times now.
Well and truly EPU’d, but had to say thank you, Howie, for the work you do and the follow-up with Congressman Sestak. I look forward to hearing about the pragmatically agressive program he is pursuing to bring our soldiers home, since he found himself unable to vote against Mr. Bush in this case.
I was glad to see Betty Sutton in the top 24.
And, by the way, he’s also been leading the battle to fix No Child Left Behind and has a number of other issues to talk about.
The number of other issues has to wait – this day, there are two issues only, irrevocably linked.
Iraq.
Impeachment.
And not necessarily in that order.
-GFO
bullshit. Joe has compromised his promises, and that makes him another political hack.
there is no excuse for giving back any bill except the one brought to the floor and voted for, approved by the senate and sent to the president.
anything less is treason, so remember that when you are voted out.
I have to ask, How dare you?
I’m actually one of Congressman Sestak’s constituents, and so am more inclined than some of the earlier commenters to give him the benefit of the doubt. For one thing, I am pretty happy not to be represented by Weldon any more, whose score would never have even seen the 90’s on the horizon. Let’s not forget that.
I am not willing to give Bush the benefit of the doubt, and feel he would have no qualms about using the troops as hostages in a showdown with Congress… just to prove his point. If there is any truth to the idea that he could deprive the troops of basic necessities, and then blame it all on the Democrats… I really can’t believe that Murtha, Webb, and Sestak would just fall victim to GOP talking points, since they’ve been so outspoken when they could be criticized for it.
Possibly, they really do know something that we don’t have access to.
In the meantime, in case I can’t be around for the discussion, I’m planting a question here. Perhaps someone else will pick it up if I don’t.
What is the real story behind the recent firing of the six Navy commanders in as many weeks? That kind of turnover is pretty alarming. Were they unwilling to go along to get along (with what sounds like a 50-yr plan from Bush for occupying Iraq) and so were punished, as a result? We really need to know.
UGH! He’s pulling the same shit! This nonsense of tying giving Bush a blank check with “supporting our troops”. He KNOWS better (or should) given his military background. The troops would be fine without the blank check. They will NOT run out of ammo, food, clothes, etc. They will NOT be left out in the desert naked if Bush doesn’t get a blank check for war. They WILL be forced (the military) to withdraw. First from the streets and roads of Iraq, and then from Iraq proper. The military has BILLIONS of dollars at its disposal. NEVER EVER IN HISTORY has defunding a war meant (or resulted in) the abandonment of naked US soldiers in the field without food or protection. NEVER.
It is inexcusable and unacceptable for Sestak or any other Dem to hide behind “we need to support our troops” bullshit. Keeping them in Iraq is NOT supporting them. Bringing them home and defunding Bush’s illegal occupation IS supporting them.
The Dems (and those like Sestak) remain on my embargo list. NOT A DIME, NOT A VOTE will I give to them at all until they make REAL moves to remove our troops from Iraq. No permanent bases, no permanent presence, no 50-year presence either. NOTHING. No US presence at all in Iraq after the withdrawal. Only an apology and reparation payments. Anything else is simply perpetuating the crime and perpetuating THE causes of Islamic terrorism against the US and the West.
OK…there is NO momentum in politics. Momentum only applies to objects with mass. Politics isn’t even hot air, it is vacuum. There is NO impediment to reversing political course (clearly, as the Bushies have been doing political 180s on everything the country had “momentum” on for the last 40 years), only courage or lack of courage. Ethics or lack of ethics.
Sestak and all his Magical Collapsing Democrat comrades lack courage and ethics. They do NOT represent the people, only corporations (big oil, boeing, other military contractors, etc). I wash my hands (and my wallet) of these criminals. They are on their own in ‘08.
Really? Keep a close eye on them while giving them the benefit of the doubt…again and again and again? No. No more benefit. Only doubt. Sestak is willfully wrong in his characterization that giving Bush a blank check is the same as giving support to the troops. That is a lie. Sestak is a liar.
He lost his benefit of the doubt when he caved. There is ONLY getting OUT of Iraq. Completely. No residue. No bases. Nothing. Out.
Question to Sestak:
How many more troops are going to die as a result of funding Bush’s escalation? That isn’t supporting the troops. It is being spineless in the face of an incompetent boy King.
I’m afraid Sestak suffers from the same ailment that afflicted Powell… being trained to follow commands.
[Fools On The Hill — You will follow the rules and keep your discussion on the merits civil. Or you will not be commenting. Are we clear? I will not tolerate that sort of bad behavior with a guest. This is not a mud-wrestling pit, these have been our rules with guests from the moment we started having them. You will either discuss these issues on the merits, or your participation will be limited accordingly. I think that is fairly clear — everyone else has to folow the rules and you are not so exceptional that they don’t apply to you. Capice? — CHS]
Why do so many people conflate “supporting the troops” with “funding the war”? That is a preposterous connection.
Certainly the biggest aspect of this vote is that it would have put Congress firmly on record as demanding that Bush abandon his illegal and immoral war. That alone could have and would have caused big things to happen.
Instead, what did occur is that Congress is now firmly on record as continuing to support the conservatives’ war. That is a travesty and a disgrace.