The Senate Intelligence Committee had an opportunity last week to send a strong signal that it would oppose the CIA’s use of harsh interrogation techniques banned by the Geneva Conventions. But while it issued a highly critical report yesterday on the CIA’s secret detentions and interrogation methods, the Committee failed in a secret vote last week to defund CIA torture methods when one Democrat, Bill Nelson of Florida, voted with the Republicans. From the New York Times:
The Senate Intelligence Committee on Thursday questioned the continuing value of the Central Intelligence Agency’s secret interrogation program for terrorism suspects, suggesting that international condemnation and the obstacles it has created to criminal prosecution may outweigh its worth in gathering information.
The committee rejected by one vote a Democratic proposal that would essentially have cut money for the program by banning harsh interrogation techniques except in dire emergencies, a committee report revealed.
[snip]
But the committee stopped short of using its budget authority to shut down the program. In a closed session on May 23, two Democrats, Senators Sheldon Whitehouse of Rhode Island and Dianne Feinstein of California, proposed barring spending on interrogation techniques that go beyond the Army Field Manual, which bans physical pressure or pain. Under their proposal, the only exception would have been when the president determined “that an individual has information about a specific and imminent threat.”
The amendment failed when Senator Bill Nelson, Democrat of Florida, joined all the Republicans in voting no.
Earlier this week, Congress heard testimony from interrogation experts that harsher interrogation methods are not effective and should be replaced by non-torture methods that do work. That story also disclosed a speech by the former senior State Department official and executive director of the 9/11 Commission Philip Zelikow criticizing “enhanced” practices as immoral and destructive of other US policy interests.
Marty Lederman has more on this morning’s Times story, including language of the amendments rejected and passed by the Committee and his analysis of why this might lead the President to conclude he has Congress’ support for continuing the CIA program. And there’s a lot more on the illegal surveillance programs and Congressional intentions regarding future Congressional oversight of all intelligence activities.
Given the Committee’s broad condemnation of the CIA interrogation methods, Nelson’s vote to support torture is inexplicable. The nation’s media should be asking Mr. Nelson and his Republican colleagues which part of it doesn’t work, we don’t need it, it’s immoral, it damages our prestige and undermines our interests they do not understand.



131 Comments












Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Firedoglake
Hypocritz!
dos!
Not a big fan of Noonan’s, but this is powerful stuff – http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/
We need to get the word out on this split and press hard. Who knows, we might actually end this administration before 08′.
Under their proposal, the only exception would have been when the president determined “that an individual has information about a specific and imminent threat.”
It left the decision up to the president?
And the president would have been acting upon information gleaned – how?
Sounds to me like the proposal would merely have given GWB the right to *increase* the torture of certain individuals.
Hell, I’d have probably voted against this POS too.
I’d be curious about Nelson’s explanation for his vote. How could he possibly justify it?
boxer @ 3
Good morning everyone.
Wow — tough column. I like her closing:
jayt @ 4
You might want to take a look at the actual language — which is pretty specific as to individual and event — Marty Lederman has it in the second of his links above.
Scarecrow @ 6
And I personally liked this graf:
Nice to hear a conservative say Dems hearts are in the right place — although I disagree about either the White House or the conservative base having a heart at all.
Rayne @ 8
Or a concise or a soul.
Bill Nelson is no more than another Joe Lieberman. I live in Florida and voted for him because I thought he understood what the Democratic values were regarding fundamental rights, civil rights, etc.
Needless to say, he has been a huge waste of a democratic seat. He is Republican, should change his party affiliation and do the right thing. But we know how Republicans do the right thing. His voting record has been abysmal. Hopefully, we will get a true Democrat to run against this disgraceful man.
Lots of stuff happening.
1. Last night, Libby’s lawyers released their brief on Libby’s sentencing. They think he’s such a good guy, so loyal and all, and has all these nice letters from all the necons in/out of the Administration, that he deserves no more than probation — no jail time. Marcy has a post on the filing.
2. The President wants to lessen criticism of his lack of a global warning policy at the upcoming G-8 meetings — so he suggested everyone meet and try to agree on what to do — by the end of 2008 — kick the can.
We need to come out strongly against congress people when they pull crap like this. It is unfortunate that he is not up for re-election until 2012 but we should start calling and writing him to let him know that he will not have our support then unless he gets his priorities straight.
Washington, D.C. Office
United States Senate
716 Senate Hart Office Building
Washington, DC 20510
Phone: 202-224-5274
Fax: 202-228-2183
email form
I’ve always thought Nelson looked like a damned Republican. Just look at him. He sorta looks like Ted Haggard.
I think we progressives sometimes get outfoxed by the neocons by the use of language in framing an issue. Respectfully, I suggest the term “harsh interrogation techniques” is too polite. “Torture” is a more potent and accurate term and one we should use exclusively in writing about this topic.
Scarecrow @ 11
seems like BushCo is launching a campaign to remodel GWB.
jim oconnor @ 14
See title and first para: “. . . harsh interrogation techniques banned by the Geneva Conventions.”
Oh, boo frikkin hoo! I thought “conservatives” didn’t believe in pansy-@ssed things like psychology and contemplating one’s political navel.
realworld @ 12
[my bold]
Maybe this factored into his decision?
Poor Miz Peggy. Like the rest of the former Bush cheerleaders, Noonan still shares the blame for the “Go, Bush, go” we’ve heard for years. She accuses Bush of tearing the conservative coalition asunder but the latter has contributed mightily to this administration tearing the country asunder.
Poor scared Congressmen. It would fall on deaf ears if Nelson and his torture-approving mates were told World War II was won without the present inhumane program which goes far beyond the Army Field Manual. These birdbrains can’t grasp the fact that what they’re approving is ineffective and self-defeating.
One vote. Bill Nelson. Can we call him “Torture Bill”?
Completely OT: does dubya remind any of you pups of Eddie Haskell?
We must use the 2008 elections to purge ourselves of creatures running as Democrats but with fealty toward GOP ideology. The DLC has blessed us with many of these cockroaches at various levels of elected officials, Ms Clinton being the most visible at a national level but Rep Emmanuel, Sen Reid, Rep Hoyer and many others must go. It is time to regain the party for “real” Democrats.
Damn I am pi**ed off!
Rayne @ 8
Somehow I find myself rather unappreciative of this rather late appeal for “conservatives” to come to their senses from someone with the visibility of Ms. Noonan. It’s tragically long overdue. Indeed, it has been “past time” for Republicans to speak out and most, with a few exceptions, remain shamefully silent or, at best, wheedlingly timid in their criticism of the President.
upcoaster @ 21
Does that make Rove Lumpy?
You might want to take a look at the actual language — which is pretty specific as to individual and event — Marty Lederman has it in the second of his links above.
“Absent a determination by the President that there is an immediate national exigency, and that there are compelling reasons to believe that the individual has information about a specific and imminent threat related to that national exigency,…”
(snip)
I don’t like that language either. Too subjective, which means “dangerous” when dealing with GWB.
What is a national exigency? A nuclear threat to the homeland? Or that a guy might have a rifle hidden behind his house which he might use to shoot at U.S. soldiers (citizens)? I could see GWB making the determination that it is in the national interest that its soldiers not be shot at.
All of that language is included only as a sop to those who live in the world of “24″, and keep on imagining the guy with knowledge of the ticking bomb. If that bizarre event ever actually *did* happen, no one is going to be worried about legalities anyway.
Lose the loop-hole, and I’m all for it.
c-span1 Randi Rhodes on next
I think about torture in a tactical sense. If a small unit is losing a firefight and called on to surrender, would they be more likely to surrender to a group of people who will treat them well or, if they believe they will be mistreated, fight on to the end? In WWII, many more Germans gave up to Americans than to the russians for precisely that reason.
Cast this as a support the troops issue and it will play better.
SquarePeg @ 10
My connection is going boinkers. But my two cents: maybe all yous in Florida can write a letter to protest and see how Nelson responds. Then show us the response letter. (He’ll be sorry when he faces a primary challenge in . . . well, as long as it takes.)
I can sympathize, because “my senator” is HoJoe. If Nelson is anything like Lieberman he’ll send something back something totally unrelated, like on small business.
nomolos @ 22
So am I!! I really wish Dean would come out with some criticism – he certainly took enough abuse from the DLC and their enablers during his campaign. But he’s a too loyal.
I would like to hear his explanation. According to the Votes Database he votes with the Dems 92.7% of the time in the current congress. Link
His party line voting was around 85% for the 109th Congress.
snowbird42 @ 27
Ooh, thanks for the reminder.
O’Reilly & Carville? Bllleerrgghh!!
Scarecrow @ 11
I still the declaration, and reconfirmation, that the plan in Iraq is indefinite occupation deserves some headlines and column inches. The NYT has nothing on this story today. I didn’t see anything at the WaPo website.
Except, naturally, Froomkin yesterday.
CNN just announcing that Dan Bartlett will resign July 4. Happy Birthday, America.
twolf1 @ 24
In most all ways possible…Though as always when KKKarl is considered, the visual defies description.
That’s my favorite Noonan line. I must admit to enjoying this. I wonder how the repub base is reacting to being called un-patriotic traitors who hate America.
Bill Nelson hasn’t been very impressive as a Senator, that’s for sure. The only reason he got a second term is because his opponent was Katherine Harris. The good news is, I didn’t have to vote for him last year (I had moved to Illinois before the general election).
Now, according to rumors, he is quietly campaigning to get a VP nomination this year. That’s the last thing we need!
Hopefully someone will challenge him in the primary in 2012.
Scarecrow @ 33
Bartlett is a Rove minion. Wonder why he is leaving? Beyond the “to spend more time with family”, reason.
I live in FL. Bill Nelson is reflecting the sentiments of his State.
I guess Nelson thought he was a Republican candidate for President and had a Jack Bauer moment. The Fool.
IrishJim @ 37
They can blame everything on him now.
jayackroyd @ 32
I agree. It should be a big story, and played in conjunction with the Georgie Anne Geyer story about Bush telling his Texas buddies that he wanted to lock in the next President to “our country’s destiny” in Iraq. This is seriously dangerous, delusional stiff. Jane had a short ost on this last night.
I vote for Nelson being the VP on the Republic ticket.
IrishJim @ 37
He got tired of having every other Bush official that has resigned in disgrace spending time with his family.
This morning on Imus-without-the-I-Man, Morning Joe echoed Noonan…the
talking pointsbuzzareis growing.Joe: Republicans haven’t left George Bush, he’s left the Republicans [the new meme]. With Joe’s under-his-breath addendum: He’s done more damage to the Republicans than *gasp* sotto voce Ted Kennedy.
On the Noonan piece, she documents the break that has taken between the corporate owners of the Republican party and the voter base that they despise as knuckle-dragging neanderthals.
They’ve always been able to cover up the gulf here, using the Dobsons and Falwells of this world to broker the relationship. They’ve always found the tricks and language to keep fooling that base into thinking they had shared interests. Books were written on the subject of their ability to keep fooling them.
They haven’t found any tricks or language that will convince the base that they really share their positions. The only way they can restore their positions with the voting base is to take away the workers whose jobs don’t conform with US labor laws. Those workers are essential to the people who own the Republican party, and they’re not gonna give.
The eruption of this issue is a manifestation of a host of issues where the ruling Republicans pretended to serve this creation of Karl Rove.
snowbird42 @ 26
I didn’t think her ego could fit in the studio. Is she going to interrupt herself for an hour?
Mandrake @ 23
But look how long it’s taken progressives to get their act together, and it’s still a work in progress. There are Dems who still think the world is like it was in the late 70’s, that politics haven’t changed; granted they are older and now increasingly a minority, but they still hold enough power in the party that it causes a problem (and gets folks like Nelson elected). We have a generational shift underway, and it’s going to take years to realize it fully.
I can see how conservatives have been unaware how badly their party went off the rails; they built a machine that was successful based on its message control, but it was overly successful to the point where it never communicated to the faithful that there were serious problems (hello, Karl?). Add blindness of the same kind that many Dems have had, and voila, 6.5 years into a two-term failure they begin to wake from their torpor.
Mandrake @ 29
No, not loyalty; it’s not his job. His job is to build the party, and negative comments about any Dem could be seen as counterproductive to building the party. It’s really the job of the state party membership to take it to wayward Dems like Nelson. Would be nice if all the Dems in Nelson’s district gave him what-for the next time he showed up in FL.
Re: Nelson (and Lieberman and some other “Dems)
Looks as if the Democratic Party has several embedded Republicans masquerading as Demos. I want clear defininition between my party and the GOP. Especially at this extremely dangerous time, wrt foreign policy. Are you listening Dem front-runners? I thought not.
Prairie Sunshine @ 43
These guys are running away from the guy they couldn’t praise/support enough. Like the neocons saying the invasion was fine, but those incompetents messed up the occupation. We’re okay, the conservatives are saying; but that guy Bush isn’t one of us, and never was.
scarecrow at 41
I’ve sent off a couple of notes to the NYT ombud.
I’m really worried that they’ll just keep talking about this, dumping into the middle of stories about success or failure of the “surge” a graf about the plans for permanent occupation. And then they’ll say “Well we’ve covered that already. It’s not news now. This has been a done deal for months, and that’s how it’s gonna be.” I don’t watch network teevee, so I don’t know how this is being covered. But its absence from the NYT leads to me to suspect this is a non-story there as well. I think if you did a survey, over 70% of the population would know we’re in the process of committing to a permanent occupation of Iraq.
I’m also worried that Clinton’s and Obama’s “redeployment” is, in practice, a commitment to this occupation.
Barlett and the rest of the Texas mafia aren’t waiting around for the finale of the Bush act they sponsored.
“Front runners”? Give me a break! Who needs you?
Chauncey Gardner @ 45
I didn’t think her ego could fit in the studio. Is she going to interrupt herself for an hour?
Your mileage obviously varies, but in my opinion she is the best-informed radio host on AAR. I cut her lots of slack for her passion and for her (as you put it) “interrupt”ing others, because in every case I can recall, she has been right.
Imho, kudos to anyone in today’s poisonous media atmosphere who consistently speaks the truth and does not suffer fools gladly.
As I say, that’s what I think; and of course you’re free to disagree!
————
‘PupMap (632 people!), Chat, Calendar, Timeline (Click here or on my .SIG above)
Should be interesting to see how this stuff percolates thru the Sunday gasbag hours. The Rethug talking points and also how the hosts frame the questions. And which questions they ask. Plenty to choose from!
Sidebar: most all these shows have contact us features on their websites…today might be a good day to check out who’s on and give them some “please ask” love.
My money’s on Schieffer to get it most right despite the cozy family ties to the Bush family. Russert’s too locked into the lawyerly “build a case” methodology to be current. Fox will be reciting whatever the Rove fax tells ‘em to say. Snuffy…once considered a contender, but he’s been ground down by the Washington establishment. And Wolfie, well he’ll blather on and never let the guest get a response in…or is that Matthews?
Scarecrow @ 48
Yep, they need to own up. Not just whine about how “betrayed” they feel now. They voted for this man twice. Ya’ know, this is the bunch that preaches personal responsibility all the frikkin time. Take responsibility, all complicit Republicans, and start working towards the impeachment of the President and the VP. We liberals fight for what is right and challenge our representatives when they do something we think is wrong. Get a backbone and take this lesson from us.
Background on Dan Bartlett from ThinkProgess.
Senator Clinton is a hawk on the Middle East.
Scarecrow @ 42
I’m guessing some evidence is about to be exposed on Danny boy. What a slime!
I love Randi and I’m always impressed on how informed she is every day. She’s a character but endearing.
I’d act shocked, but well…I’m from Florida *shrugs*. We can run moderate candidates that are gonna win their elections, but we’re gonna get results like this as a result. Lesser of two evils, I suppose.
They can have all the resignations they want. But until Rove, Cheney and Bush leave, I just don’t pay much attention.
I don’t understand Nelson at all, Scarecrow. He should know as much as anybody what the ramifications are of his vote. (b/w)
S.O.S. from MA @ 52
Your mileage obviously varies, but in my opinion she is the best-informed radio host on AAR. I cut her lots of slack for her passion and for her (as you put it) “interrupt”ing others, because in every case I can recall, she has been right.
Imho, kudos to anyone in today’s poisonous media atmosphere who consistently speaks the truth and does not suffer fools gladly.
As I say, that’s what I think; and of course you’re free to disagree!
————
‘PupMap (632 people!), Chat, Calendar, Timeline (Click here or on my .SIG above)
I like Randi. She can be a little too abrasive at times, but she’s as p*ssed off as me and has been as p*ssed as I’ve been since we invaded. So it feels good to hear her tell the truth and do it with the same passion I feel that I have to walk around with and keep inside all the time.
jayackroyd @ 49
The Dems, I fear, have bought into the Bush meme that al Qaeda is the enemy and al Qaeda is in Iraq, therefore we need to stay in Iraq to fight terrorism with our military. I read Edward’s recent speech on Iraq, and he says he wants to begin immediate withdrawal and redeployment (somewhere else) —- but then we’d only go back in to fight al Qaeda and terrorism. You can see where that leads. It will be interesting to see how the Dems handle questions along these lines at Sunday’s debate.
Scarecrow @ 33
CNN online managed to notice that one of Rove’s minions is bookin’ it “for the private sector,” too:
Tim Griffin Resigns Amid USA Flap
Don’t get me started on Bill Nelson. From 1995 to 2000, Nelson was the Treasurer and Insurance Commissioner of Florida. During this time, I had purchased an individual health insurance plan. I faithfully made my payments for 3 years, although I had NEVER ONCE gone to a physician. I was paying the premiums in case in my future, I needed health care. Well, he decided to allow the insurance companies to drop their individual policy holders. I was sent a 120 day notice that I was to be dropped because Humana no longer would insure Individual Policy holders. They dropped 140,000 of us. That’s right, they GROUPED 140,000 policy holders and dropped us for not being a group. Humana had purchased our small company (PGA) and then dropped us. It still makes me irate. I have no love for the undistinquished Bill Nelson.
Quick shot from work:
“Moderate” Dems are still a major enabling factor.
I used to listen to Left Right and Center until I realized that Matt Miller is bad for my blood pressure.
Tony Blankley actually has a consistant moral perspective.
He may be consistantly wrong, but he is consistant.
The Matt Millers, Rahm Emmanuals and Ben Nelsons of this world scare me the most, bucause you never know when they will find it opportunistic to cave on a fundamental issue in political expediencey.
Sad as it is, or maybe just realistic as it is, I have come to think that we have to rely on conservatives to contribute to the critical mass to get out of these messes.
On the other hand, maybe that’s the way it’s supposed to work.
Rayne @46:
That’s what I meant by loyalty.
Dover Bitch @ 62
That’s a nice catch, DB. Thanks for the link.
PS: When I called Humana and asked why I was being dropped, they said that the policies were not profitable. I asked how it wasn’t profitable that I had paid my premium and never been to a doctor, she had no reply. Had I cracked my ass it might have been better for them, I imagine.
President Bush released the following statement Friday on the resignation of one of his top advisers, Dan Bartlett:
“Laura and I will miss Dan Bartlett very much. Dan has been a true counselor to the President. His contribution has been immeasurable. I value his judgment and I treasure his friendship. Since coming to work for me fourteen years ago as I prepared to run for Governor, Dan has become a husband and a father. I understand his decision to make his young family his first priority. His most important job is to be a loving husband and father of three young sons. We wish him all the best.”
I wonder where Bartlett will show up now.
I hard that Griffin was being considered for Fred Thompson’s campaign
Scarecrow @ 66
You bet.
Didn’t Nelson get a free pass going up against Katherine Harris?
ccmask @ 70
I say he will be with Fred Thompson along with the other Rove minion, Tim Griffin.
You can see where that leads. It will be interesting to see how the Dems handle questions along these lines at Sunday’s debate.
Scarecrow–
Unfortunately, the questions will be asked by people who won’t force this issue. Even Dodd, yesterday, left himself some wiggle room.
And Matt didn’t ask my question about permanent occupation. I just feel like we’re seeing the Beltway Two Step starting up again, and we’ll find ourselves still in Iraq, with tens of thousands of troops in 2010.
I actually think YKos may be more important than the traditional debates. I honestly believe the MoveOn Town Hall on Iraq forced Clinton and Obama to be more clearly committed to getting out. And then watching them stall on the supplemental.
They know how their party members want them to vote, and what they want them to do. The question is whether they’ll do it or not.
Oh, and I don’t think the democrats have bought in on the al qaeda meme. They may use it as a pretext to justify their continuation of the occupation. But I don’t think they believe it.
snowbird42 @ 75
Pretty much. Of course, LIEberman would most likely have gotten a free pass up against her…
I will continue to blast members of my party who vote with the Republicans.
I might be wrong on Bartlett. I found this from an Examiner article:
Bartlett said he would not write a book about his experiences, would not seek a political career in Texas and would not align himself with any Republican candidate in the 2008 presidential election
Link
Good Morning Scarecrow.
Another good post with plenty to chew on.
Lots happening indeed.
Just a couple days ago, a political acquaintance returned home from 2-week trip, & casually asked me whut’s been happenin’.
egad!
Any suggestions where to start?! I’ve seriously thot of simply insisting she read the last 2 weeks of FDL, word for word, most definitely including all the comments…
Mandrake @ 67
That’s what I meant by loyalty.
Sorry, my bad; I interpreted your comment to mean he was loyal to the Dems in question versus the party itself.
I’m pretty sure he’s made comments to the effect that torture isn’t acceptable — but he can’t make them at times where it can be seen as criticism of party leaders. WE, however, can tell Dean that we can’t fund the DNC if they are supporting torture apologists — and that we’ll fund directly Dems whose positions sync with ours. I’m absolutely certain he’d have no problem with that.
But here we are dissecting one of our best Dem leaders, when the real underlying problem is that the Republican Party is the party of torture, that encourages the violation of the Geneva Conventions systematically, denigrating any remaining moral authority the United States had. We have a target rich environment.
OT here and sorry, but I’m hoping to see this text of mine on “reveal-the-Libby-sentencing-letters” red letter day.
———
Judge Reggie B. Walton
…
Re: Sentencing of I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby Jr.
April 1, 2007
Dear Judge Walton,
I am just an American Citizen with no other relationship to my Government or anyone in it. I feel it is my patriotic duty to express an opinion in this matter.
Libby was convicted of obstruction of justice in an extraordinarily important case, one involving the probable treason (as I see it; legal definitions aside) of exposing a covert CIA operative and her network, for the purposes of political revenge. If he or anyone were to have been convicted of the latter crime, a judge would probably be mulling the death penalty.
For obstructing the probe into that heinous crime (which MUST have been committed by someone) I say that he should receive the heaviest possible sentence, irrespective of prior record or previous position.
Thank you for your consideration of my views.
Very truly yours,
/signed
———
‘PupMap (640 people!), Chat, Calendar, Timeline (Click here or on my .SIG above)
This I know may sound old-fashioned: I’m into principle, (the right thing to do), not political expediency.
Well so much for Democratic revolution that was supposed to sweep the country after Nov 06 elections. What was it Barnum said:
“there’s a sucker born every minute.”
Oklahoma kiddo @ 52
They made it sound on Keith Olbermann last night that Gore is maybe preparing to run. If so, it’s exciting. I’m reading his “Reason” book and I would like him to knock Hawk-Clinton and Joe-Bama off the front stage.
mui @ 87
I saw that! ;0)
Rayne @ 81
I would never dissect Dean. I have a great deal of admiration for him and campaigned for him in 2003. I thought he was going to save us, quite frankly. I certainly was the fool. It was just wishful thinking on my part, a passing comment, even though I know it would not be best for the party and I know he would agree.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 84
Right on, OK. Who was it — (someone around hereabouts)? — who said “Integrity is the new black?”
ROTFLOL!
jr kicking the can on environment? seems to me he’s just lamely attempting to insist everyone keep talking about … anything but … till he’s free from office. that’s pretend, make-work he’s suggesting.
and all these little roverclone rodents jumping off the sinking ship to scurry over to Thompson. well, isn’t that a “tell” of sorts?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 88
If so, Tweety will be disappointed. He’s devoted so many hours to Hillary. Maureen Dowd is prepared to dissect her ward robe. It’s all a go for them. I’d love to see them knocked for a loop by a dark horse runner.
John W @ 85
The fact that we are picking over Bill Nelson should tell you that the Democratic revolution is not done. We only won another battle in what is a war for the soul of the Democratic Party, the fate of this nation, and the sustainability of this planet.
We are in the middle of two simultaneous battles that must be carefully managed — regaining a veto-proof majority in both the House and Senate, and the removal of the DINO’s holding office. We cannot remove the DINO’s without fielding strong candidates that can win a primary, this being Phase I of the second battle.
The revolution as I see will not be complete until 2012 or later. It will not be complete until we have three viable, competitive parties that keep each other on their toes and perform real oversight on each other. Never again should one party have absolute power for overlong since absolute power obviously corrupts. In this respect, this is really not a Democratic revolution; we are only in the Democratic phase of a larger democratic (little d) revolution.
Adie @ 91
The question is why? Does ChimpCo feel threated by Algore or something?
Adie @ 82
Almost sounds like a punishment. ;)
Here’s a substitute:
The war may go on forever; Bush says it’s our destiny; May was worst month this year.
Libby doesn’t want to go to jail; lots of neocons worry he might have to.
Gonzales still AG, no shame, even though it’s now clear he allowed WH to destroy integrity of the DoJ.
Bush stalling on global warning, wants to play kick the can down the road with other countries to avoid having to do anything in his term.
Rove still there; staying behind rocks; Dan Bartlett resigning to distract from something else happening today.
Republicans abandoning Bush on immigration — now claiming he was never one of them. Bush calls them bigots and fear mongers. Pot, meet kettle.
Media going into summer snooze. Try not to wake them.
Torture still okay, even though we know it doesn’t work and is bad.
Lots of people being kidnapped/held hostage — 2 USs troops, lots of reporters, 5 Brits, and 150,000 US troops.
Afghanistan slowing becoming Iraq.
Al Qaeda now using Iraq as base to train bad guys to go into North Africa, Lebanon, Palestine. Bush policy a disaster, but impeachment still looking for a table.
Immigration battle heating up; Lou Dobbs running for demogogue of the year, but has lots of competition.
And Christy has a new post/thread ready.
Morning gang — fresh thread, up and running for everyone.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 85
LONG LIVE “old fashioned” thots like yours!
And I don’t mean just enshrined in some musty old museum.
Oh hell, yeah! Randi’s making lots of sense on the immigration thing. Would that our leaders would explain the bigger picture just like she did. It took her less than 5 minutes.
Rayne @ 93
We knew what Nelson was like. Did he have a primary challenge? I don’t know. But it seems to me Katherine Harris was scaring even the Bushies.
To me this ‘06 election should be viewed as phase I. We shouldn’t get discouraged. Just think of the successes. I mean for the first time, Pharma-Hag Nancy Johnson (R-CT) is out of office in I don’t know how many years . . . I’m still disappointed as a Lamont supporter, but exhiliarated that we have new faces to deal with.
“… nelson’s vote to support torture is inexplicable.”
no,
it’s not inexplicable.
we just don’t know what he is getting for doing so.
something he wants very much in congress?
avoidance of an unpleasant personal fact which could be made public?
there’s a reason why seasoned politicians make votes liked this.
but we, the public, just don’t have sufficient access to inside information to figure out why he/she voted the way they did.
Mandrake @ 88
But he is, Mandrake, he’s doing what he can as a single citizen to save both the Democratic Party and the country. He’s sacrificed his personal life to this effort, which is more than an overwhelming majority of Democratic Party members can say. But he is one man, and he has to have the cooperation and collaboration of everyone in the grassroots, rank-and-file of the party to squeeze out the old school.
I personally think that the 50-State Strategy along with the upgrade of technical tools the party uses are the saving grace of 2006 — and they wouldn’t have happened without Dean. Their successful implementation made it abundantly clear that DINO’s like Rahm are talking out of their *sses and don’t know what the f*ck they are doing. If Rahm had concentrated on the 50-State Strategy, we might have won another handful of house seats handily. Scratching the numbers the other day, I noted that we lost SIX seats by less than 25000 votes overall; could Dean have gotten us those seats if Rahm had gotten off his pig-headed high horse and supported Dean’s strategy with a couple million he blew on Duckworth’s race? Could we have taken Lieberman’s seat with more help from the old schoolers like Levin and Schumer? Yeah, I think so — and we should hold them accountable for it.
John W @ 86
Never Give Up.
No Retreat. No Surrender.
DeLayVanDammeSpringsteen
Rayne — thanks much for fighting the good fight this morning. Much appreciated.
rayne (93)
sensible and well-said.
the dinos do have to go, particularly those democratic dinos that are in office by virtue of their name and wealth only.
Bill Nelson has flown under the radar for far too long! As my senator, he voted FOR the Bankruptcy Bill and FOR confirmation of Abu Gonzales as well. Bill Nelson is just a Republican. Sadly, there’s not a damn thing we can do about it now; he was just re-elected by a landslide because his opponent was Katherine Harris. I really wish the Dems could find another LESS REPUBLICAN Democrat to run against Nelson. I’m not Nelson’s constituent anymore, but I’d be happy to see another Dem take his job away from him.
Marie Roget @ 65
Tim Griffin, Karl Rove’s protege, is in discussion with Fred Thompson to work on his campaign. He’s finished his caging work in Arkansas and is now ready to offer his talents to the Republicans “Great White Dope”
boxer @ 3
Heh. My favorite part was this:
Really, Peggy? The Bush administration impugning the motives and questioning the patriotism of people who disagree with them? Gosh, that’s never happened before. I don’t recall you having a big problem with it until they turned it on you.
Again, really? So did you think they were “defensive” and had a policy that was a mess when they were name-calling those who opposed them on war, torture, wiretapping, and all the others? Again, I don’t think so. Funny how these tactics are clear evidence that their policy is indefensible only when you already think their policy is indefensible, huh, Peggy?
What a twit. Yes, Peggy, now that Bush isn’t running for re-election, he doesn’t care what you think. And you and the “base” can pretend that you’ve “broken” with the White House now that he isn’t running for re-election and he’s unpopular. But we’re not fooled.
Bluetoe @ 107
These people are disgusting. Tim Griffin resigns, but continues to do the work of his master.
mui @ 92
Tweety’s acting like a nitwit husky-dog again, racing around in circles, no sense of direction, just needs to run, just because.
Apologies to his adoring fans, but i think his one remaining brain cell is vastly overrated.
Any day now, i expect him to run full tilt into a brick wall & knock himself out.
Last night, he actually told an interviewee simply daring to try to finish a sentence,
[quoting from memory here, but it should be pretty close]
“Stop! You’re not letting me interrupt. You don’t understand. That’s not how this [program] works. I gotta interrupt, or it doesn’t work.”
The guy’s lost his mind, i tell ya.
I agree that Bill Nelson is an elephant in donkey clothing. Him & Lieberman both trick n’ treat together.
Adie @ 110
I must admit, I can only take Tweety for a few minutes, but he’s vastly more entertaining than the alternatives on CNN. He’s switching from Bug juice to Koolaid and back again. Plus Mary Matalin can’t stand him.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 61
;-> gonzo too, please…
he’s my senator. what can you say? he’s a
dickbum but the choice was between him and Katherine Harris. he’s the only guy i’ve ever seen with a charisma deficit. It’s not that he has no charisma. He actually has negative charisma.i’ll have to drop him an e-mail and remind him that he’s a bum. They can’t scrounge up decent candidates who can win down here. i wonder how janet reno ever got elected attorney general here. i didn’t live here then.
mui @ 112
you won me over with the MaryMattress thot. saw her briefly last night.
whoever was talking to her actually got her to laugh & flirt. ewwwwww. my mind instantly blocked everything else out. don’t even know what program she was on….
Nelson also voted with the republics and Lieberman for the MCA last Sept. Why does Sen. Nelson hate the Constitution?
((((Scarecrow)))) 95
I wonder if Dannyboy Bartlett had Rove’s blessing as he
walkedran to a lifeboat on the Titanic? I wonder if he saw something as he sat in the crow’s nest?Bio via whitehouse website:
Dan Bartlett, Counselor to the President
Dan Bartlett serves President George W. Bush as Counselor to the President. In this capacity, Bartlett is responsible for all aspects of President Bush’s strategic communications planning and the formulation of policy and implementation of the President’s agenda. He also oversees the White House Press Office and the Offices of Communications, Media Affairs, and Speechwriting. (Heck, did he give George the primer My Pet Goat?)……. and Deputy to then Counselor to the President, Karen Hughes. Before joining the Bush Administration, Dan Bartlett served as a senior spokesman and Director of Rapid Response for the Bush for President campaign in Austin, Texas. He has served President Bush since 1993…. Before joining President Bush, Mr. Bartlett worked for Karl Rove and Company, an Austin-based political consulting firm. He has served the President for over ten years.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/gove…..t-bio.html
Jeez, I’m so sick of these crooks living off the
governmenttaxpayers largesse they’re entire lives. They exemplify the axiom ” welfare mother.”mui @ 94
the whole topic has been a thorn in his side since before he came into office.
gore? or the environment? -uh-, both?…;->
re: howard dean
the single most principled, passionate, and capable (in terms of leadership skill) democrat in national office today.
the only democrat i know, gore included, who will call a spade a spade anytime.
as for rham emmanuel vs howard dean -
it’s lemons and oranges. their time perspectives were completely different.
emmanuel had a very short-time perspective – mid-june to nov, 2006. he did his job in that short time.
dean has a long-term perspective. he has delivered and will continue to deliver.
you only have to understand what a complete shambles the democratic organizations are in some states to see the tremendous potential of dean’s approach.
in my time in georgia, for example, the democratic party organization/machinery has been both little in evidence and incompetent in execution.
the potential yields from creating a competent political machine where none have existed for decades are enormous.
the notion that the south should be written off by democrats is just democratic head-in-the-sand stupidity that fails utterly to take into account the very rapid changes going on in the no-loner-rural south -
- larger, well-educated black middle class with immigration from the north and west
- hispanic and asian immigration
- increasing political influence of large cities
- dying out of the south’s hyper-christian culture
- dying out of white racists.
but georgia is just one example.
i’m sure there are others in the inter-mountain west or the lower midwest
if dean is allowed to complete his work, i’d guess he will have become a democratic saint in about twenty years.
Adie @ 115
That is a big ew. MaryMatalin, ugh.
Just called Nelson’s office.
The number is (202) 224-5274.
Told the staffer that torture is profoundly un-American, and that Abu Ghareb destroyed America’s effectiveness in Iraq, and we are paying the price.
I urge FDLer’s to do the same.
orionATL @ 120
No one I know is arguing “writing off the South” so much as “don’t let the Blue Dogs trip us up”. We never see blue-state Republicans running against their own leadership as being too conservative, but Blue Doggies in the the South and elsewhere beat up on Ted Kennedy and Nancy Pelosi and other standard-bearers of the Democratic base.
albert fall @ 122
Excellent!
mui @ 28
I just wrote Sen. Nelson and am eagerly awaiting his reply, which I will share as soon as I get it. I write him regularly here in the Sunshine State and now receive “updates” from his office sporadically. I first contacted him over his vote to gut habeas corpus and support torture not too long ago and received a rather mealy-mouthed reply along the lines of “9/11! Terrorists! The Muslim Menace!” with a little dose of “look at the good things I’ve done!” (Can’t really find any, Bill – you crow about stopping oil drilling off the coast and then caved to Republican “compromises”. That’s it, as far as I can tell).
The choice last November was between Cruella De’Ville protege Katharine Harris and Nelson; talk about the lesser of 2 evils! Nelson is a former state aparatchik and astronaut and he spends much of his time in Tampa with the soldiers at CentCom. I can’t believe that he isn’t aware of the effect that torture has on our country both here and abroad and safety of our soldiers.
We have recently learned that Mel Martinez used Rove’s dirty tricks to narrowly defeat Betty Castor in his Senate race and now we find that choosing Nelson over Harris wasn’t much of a choice after all. We’re basically screwed coming and going.
All of the wealthy, white retirees, Cuban nationalists, and Christianists who narrowly vote to keep Repbulicans in power in Florida and nationally are beginning to feel the effects of voting against their own interests as the state plows recklessly forward into massive property tax cuts for the wealthiest homeowners of the state with a compensatory cut in local services.
We are about to suffere massive cuts in such evil pork projects as: road and sidewalk maintenance, water purification and sewage, public libraries, firefighters, police, teachers and schools, public libraries, and senior services.
CUT TAXES! is the only refrain they are capable of, despite the fact that we have no state income tax in Florida and the property taxes are the base of most local municipalities budgets, all run by Republcians too, of course, and they are screaming “Foul!” and the governor responds “Cut out all that wasteful spending and you’ll be fine!” Who needs ambulances that are timely or public libraries anyway?
Florida will long pay the price for the follies of 2000 and we deserve all of it, IMHO.
Priscilla, Queen of the Beach @ 125
Oops messed up again @126, Priscilla Queen of the Beach, you rock!
LibertyLee @ 38
Hey,……….I LIVE IN FLORIDA,TOO.
Nelson, aka Ted Haggard’s look alike,is in no way shape or form, “Reflecting the sentiments of her state.”
I work in the school district of my county, and have discussed billy boy with many, many voters. THEY ALL DISPISE HIM FOR THE PHONY-ASS GO-ALONG-GET-ALONG ASSMUNCHER HE IS.
Don’t speak for “US”, thank you very much.
Pardon on post 128….should read despise.
Also, have phoned his local and DC office many, many times in the past. The staffers just say they’ll pass the comment on to billy boy, but they sound quite apathetic……I doubt they do.
He really is a republican, and he neither said or did anything during the, still unresolved, congressional race for District 13. So we have Vern(used car salesman)Buchannan calling the shots in Washington. Bodes well for keeping the Catherine Harris tradition alive and crooked in Sarasota. I apologize, in advance, for bringing up the witch’s name.
Way EPU’d, but great job Scarecrow and DB @61 – the post you have up is very powerful too.
Torture is a sickness. Give it another name – abuse or punishment of the helpless – it is still a sickness. It’s the same as voting “for” injecting our nation with syphillis or AIDS or typhoid. And it’s a sickness that, once embraced, spreads like wildfire through every means and even, uniquely, thoughtborne.
It also remains dormant in the lives of those touched by it, waiting to re-emerge.
Whether it is Bill Nelson or Sherrod Brown or Joe Lieberman actively endorsing and working for the spread of that illness – or HClinton or Obama dodging the issue and casting triangulated votes without every digging in and fighting for the cure – there’s not much more hope from the Democratic side than from the wholly depraved and degraded Republican side.
phoenix:
i should have left the part about “writing off the south” out of my comment. it took away from my main thrust which is that well-organized, focused state democratic organizations have a tremendous role to play in national politics,
that there are quite a few poorly organized democratic state parties, and
that dean has focused like a laser on organizing state parties against the short term opposition of his own party.
the advice about “writing off the south” does show up in democratic rhetoric from time to time,
in this case, i was recalling a particularly goofy set of eight essays that appeared in the american prospect in january 2005,
but i don’t consider it a big deal. once the votes show up, the rhetoric will change. and organizing is what will make that happen.
as for pelosi and kennedy:
i have tremendous respect for pelosi, i think she is doing an outstanding job as a congressional LEADER.
for me, kennedy is another story. he has failed time and again to use his special status to help us deal with bush’s foolish actions and rhetoric. and the immigration bill, like the medicare drug bill, is not a good bill in my opinion.