Joshua Marshall devoted a series of posts yesterday to this Reuters story:
President George W. Bush would like to see a lengthy U.S. troop presence in Iraq like the one in South Korea to provide stability but not in a frontline combat role, the White House said on Wednesday.
The United States has had thousands of U.S. troops in South Korea to guard against a North Korean invasion for 50 years.
. . . "The Korean model is one in which the United States provides a security presence, but you've had the development of a successful democracy in South Korea over a period of years, and, therefore, the United States is there as a force of stability," [White House spokesliar Tony] Snow told reporters.
He said U.S. bases in Iraq would not necessarily be permanent because they would be there at the invitation of the host government and "the person who has done the invitation has the right to withdraw the invitation."
As Marshall initially commented, "Korean history would suggest that (A) a fifty year occupation, (B) lack of democracy and (C) a hostile neighbor were deeply intertwined . . . the US military presence in Iraq will never be as relatively bloodless as the US military presence in Korea since it has no external threat it's counterbalancing against." (Well, at least not an external threat to Iraq, if you know what I mean.)
Josh then elaborated that "there's only one goal that makes sense of [the Bushite] strategy. . . . to permanently dominate the cluster of oil fields in southern Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iran," before being reminded of a key point by a reader:
While it's tempting to try to find some method to the madness of the last few years, you won't find it in a 50-year plan to control the oil supply of the Middle East. That's a pipe dream that didn't survive the occupation.
To which Marshall responded:
To a degree I agree the whole 'control the natural resources of the region' idea didn't survive 'first contact', to paraphrase the US Army line about military planning. But denial is a useful thing. And a lot of the flailing about of recent years, actually most of it, has been an effort to find some way to sustain the original vision.
That's exactly where we've been for the past few years. I don't think I ever used this phrase in a post, but in a brief email exchange with Billmon in 2005 I referred to it as an "iron butt" strategy — just as various Iraqi factions are trying to wait us out and grab for power as we leave, Dick Cheney and his ilk think we can wait them out (even though they live there!) as long as the American public can be numbed to the ongoing death toll.
It's not that the chaos in Iraq is an intentional mechanism by which the U.S. neocons/hawks sought to impose their will on the country (or region's) resources, but from their perspective it's a tolerable fallback position to keep Iran anyone else from gaining control until they can figure out a way to turn events back in their favor. And if all it costs are the lives of American soldiers, hey, that's cheap as far as they're concerned.
The main obstacle to Cheney's colonial dreams, though, is that the Iraqis aren't a bunch of helpless pre-industrial natives; they kind of like the idea of controlling all that oil, too (and the wealth it implies). That's a key reason to why the resistance to the U.S. designs on Iraq has been so fierce — all the factions, not to mention the neighboring countries, know what's at stake and have no intentions of rolling over.
The factions' unwillingness to share Iraq's oil loot is also why nearly all observers agree that a U.S. withdrawal would, at least temporarily, increase the carnage among the remaining combatants, not to mention why the post-invasion Iraqi political process has resembled a Quentin Tarantino-Michael Bay remake of "It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World" (with Saddam Hussein and Dick Cheney in the Jimmy Durante and Spencer Tracy roles, respectively).
For example, you know that oil law the U.S. has been so hot and heavy to get the Iraqis to pass? It turns out that after months of massaging, the ltext of the law doesn't guarantee Western oil companies anything; it just doesn't exclude the possibility that they may get some lucrative deals. Oh, and during those months, billions of dollars' worth of oil is unaccounted for, with one of the prime suspects being the Shiite militias/political parties that make up the government. I don't think they're about to pass a law that gives them a worse deal than what they're getting off the books now.
The Americans aren't the only ones who can play realpolitik, you know.
Related posts:
- Intelligence Shortfalls And The Waziristan Offensive
- American Journalists Held in N.Korea Pardoned, to be Freed During Clinton Visit
- Torture: Obama Heeded Maliki on Abuse Photos, Says McClatchy; What That Says for Our Occupation
- Priming the Pump: While Wars for Oil Gobble More Oil, Military Forced to Eye Alternative Fuels
- The End of the Delusion in Iraq





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Howdy!
Swopa!
Everybody! Hi!
Silly me — I thought the Iraqis were having trouble deciding how to share their oil with one another. Now I understand: they simply don’t want to share it with us.
Look… Cheney and Bush are nothing if not ‘oil-men’.
Apt analogy.
That was a hysterical movie when it first came out.
I waited for years for it to come on again.
.. and where, exactly, is W’s proposed DMZ in the Middle East? If Korea is the model, where’s the strongman? Where’s the closed society? Where’s the starving masses 50 years from now?
What about Korea makes BushCo think it’s a valid model for Iraq — the Kia Sorrento?
TROOPS
HOME
NOW
AZ Matt -
Any ‘toons appropriate to the day?
Not sharing (giving) their (Iraq) oil to us is not a viable option. It’s simply not on the table. Period.
TeddySanFran @ 4
Oh, well, that’s a problem, too. But one more snout at the trough just makes things more complicated.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 5
Make that ‘Snake-oil-men’!
So this is it, huh?
It really was “blood for oil” all along?
So the original name was correct: “Operation Iraqi Liberation.”
Please excuse me, I think I’m going to be sick…
Bush really is stupid, hows that whole North Korea thing been working for ya’ Stupie?
Another reason to invade Iran: after installing a friendly government,
we set up permanent bases which will help us to deal with
the dangerous Shiite regime to Iran’s west.
ah but George W has a lovely relationship with al Hakim whose sons are known as the biggest oil smugglers in the south and of course al Hakim and his SCIRI friends have been very cooperative with US interests …
Swopa – do you have a source for the information on the text of the HydroCarbon bill? the text I’ve seen places control in private hands (as opposed to the normal nationalized model) and opens the field to big oil. I’d love to see any more recent texts that are circulating.
Oil bill leaked – Raed in the Middle
“This law legalizes PSAs (production sharing agreements) in Iraq. Iraq will be the only country in the middle east with such contracts privatising Iraqi oil and giving foreign companies crazy rates of profit that may reach to more than three fourth of the general revenue. Iraq and Iraqis need every Dinar that comes from oil sales. In addition to the financial aspects of this law, it can be considered the funding tool for splitting Iraq into three states. It undermines the central government and distributes oil revenues directly to the three regions, which sets the foundations for what Iraq’s enemies are trying to achieve in terms of establishing three independent states.”
“The Americans aren’t the only ones who can play realpolitik, you know.”
I’ve never thought we were or are particularly good at playing realpolitik. If we were, we wouldn’t have to constantly resort to bombing the shit out of people.
On the heels of the military now deciding even wounded troops can’t be photographed, I’d like to see Congress pass a law requiring the opening of what’s happening at Dover AFB to public exposure. All along I’ve felt the Bush government treats dead troops as worse than garbage, and they deserve a recognition of sacrifice just as much as the living ones do. Hiding the bodies in “transfer tubes” and sneaking them in in the dead of night is disgusting. And it’s obviously a major way to keep the public shielded from the cost in lives of this futile and brutal occupation.
Please forgive an unrelated post, but I wanted to point out the love that FDL was getting from Jay Rosen at Huffington Post (FiredogLake Shines at the Libby Trial)
Rosen mentions this in a non-pie-eyed treatment as one of 5 examples where blogging has made a mark.
Rosen has a related article, in which he discusses the shifting roles of authority that blogs have helped reshape (Readers And Viewers … Are Far Less In Awe of the Press)
Again, apologies Swopa and readers, for my impertinence.
Waccamaw here are a couple of very good ones.
Danziger on Limpballs and Dobbs
Toles on the Supremes retro-decision
You may count on Bush and Cheney to have evil plans and carry them out in such a manner as to make everything go horribly wrong.
But because they never suffer the consquences, they’re free to try, try again.
If the Bush family wants it, they take it. Be it oil or elections, college degrees, no-child left behind test contracts or whatever. It’s their due.
AZ Matt @ 19
Toles says it
Bush’s Former Oil Company
Linked To bin Laden Family
When President George W. Bush froze assets connected to Osama bin Laden, he didn’t tell the American people that the terrorist mastermind’s late brother was an investor in the president’s former oil business in Texas. He also hasn’t leveled with the American public about his financial connections to a host of shady Saudi characters involved in drug cartels, gun smuggling, and terrorist networks.
This is another good read re Iraq oil.
The Truth About Oil and Iraq
Submitted by Webmaster on Fri, 2007-05-25 15:30. House Floor Speeches
Dennis Kucinich speaking from the Floor of the House
May 23, 2007
Ed*ard Teller @ 16
Thank you for that.
That was really well said.
I think it is about more than the oil. I think it is about perpetual war and war powers. What makes any of us think that the repigs are going to cede power in 2008. An election? Feh.
I hope I’m just having a bad day.
AZ Matt -
Thankee…….haven’t had my funnies fix for the day. *g*
Tweety’s got something wrt the Scooter letters coming up next.
Ed*ard Teller @ 16
Hear Hear!!
Yeah, it’s like Korea – if the US is NORTH Korea. Then it starts to make a little sense, but still not very much.
Heckuva job there.
If the invasion/occupation had gone as first dreamed, these guys would be geniuses and we would be at the beginning of the republican/Bush century.
I was discussing this in January of ‘03 with a military relative, and he opened my eyes to what a superlative aircraft carrier Iraq could be. It’s the best place from which to project power in the middle east. Combined with Afgahnistan, Israel, Egypt and our other regional bases we can pressure China, Russia, Iran, and anybody else we feel like. And we can physically control a lot of the oil, affect the distribution and shipping of it, and greatly influence other oild producing countries.
But the scheme requires secure supply lines and a reasonably stable local area to operate out of. The crusader castles in the middle ages sometimes had to endure 20 year sieges before relieving or breaking out. We aren’t on that schedule – we need faster results, our time frame is more like a corporate quarterly report. The superbases being built can sustain a little light mortar and rocketing daily, but not interruption of the supply convoys. Our supply needs and burn rates are just too high.
Bush and Cheney are oil guys. But the needs of the US and the oil companies are vastly different. The multinationals are decoupling from the US as fast as they can – take a look at Halliburton’s move to Dubai. Not sure is Bush & Cheney see their personal futures with the oil majors or with the US economy, I think they’re hedging their bets at this point. Anyhow, they will favor the 7 sisters and their spawn over other nations’ oil companies – so they want to have the edge on China, Norway, Iran, Russia, and to a lesser degree France, Italy and the Dutch.
They see oil as the lever to the world economy – and geopolitical power – for another generation or two, and they want to keep both hands on that lever, and to crowd as many others away as they can. Makes sense.
They probably think that they can work with a large group of small, regional warlords and war torn countries. Much preferable to a fully emboldened Iran, for instance, or an Iraq with a strong, unified political and industrial base. That way everyone owes the US, has to cower before their power, and the US gets to broker the weak, shifting political coalition, so it comes out on top.
Too bad they’ve probably pissed away the last chance to pull it off. Now it’s just a question of how much more expense and death we can stand, how much worse a situation we’re willing to create. I wish I could see an upside here.
Waccamaw @ 28
…right after the Fred Thomson love fest.
Telling quote from the Big Guy:
Sounds to me like he was always ready and willing, as long it was someone else’s young Americans.
twolf1 @ 31
that’s why I can’t bring myself to watch him any more. I’ll wait until Countdown before turning on the teevee.
I wonder if the US Gov were to present a bill to the Iraqi parliament suggesting we will withdraw right now for a trade of 400 billion in oil over the next 5 to 15 years at fair market value. So our “liberation” costs could be paid back. Aside from that all control of the Iraqi oil business stays in Iraq.
Betcha the parliament would vote on that immediately.
Siun @ 15
Very cooperative, except when they’re making false promises and then telling Bush to stuff it after they’ve gotten what they want.
Notice the word Raed uses is “legalizes” — as I said, it merely allows PSAs rather than mandating them. (I don’t have a link to the text at hand, but the Kurdish government posted it online.)
As far as I can tell from my reading, the primary dispute is about national versus regional control. The Kurds want to make deals that aren’t subject to a national veto; it also appears that the Kurds are the ones interested in PSAs. Somwehat ironically, though, the deals I’ve read about the Kurds pursuing have been with non-U.S. companies.
Sorry, I don’t see it. Not a frontline combat role? It hasn’t been all that long since we pulled the 2nd ID off the DMZ so we were in a frontline (trip-wire) role for the bulk of the 50 years. While there are “infiltrators” it is still mostly two static defense lines, nothing like Iraq.
twolf -
Can you tell me what in the h*ll Tweety’s talking about everytime he says, “JUICE”! ?
Well, I was thinking something more along the lines of, oh, let’s say…… gag fest.
raven @ 36
It’s because Bush is an idiot.
Luckovich on the Clinton Library
TeddySanFran @ 38
That’s the underlying premise of all things Lake isn’t it?
MEXICO CITY — Without breathing a word to shareholders in his Houston
oil-drilling company, Zapata Off-Shore Co., George Bush in 1960 helped set up
another drilling operation employing Mexican front men and seemingly
circumventing Mexican law. And he did so in association with Jorge Diaz Serrano,
a now-convicted felon who has become a symbol of political corruption in a
country with no shortage of contestants for that dubious distinction.
In helping to launch Perforaciones Marinas del Golfo — better known as Permargo
– Bush and his associates at Zapata teamed up with Diaz Serrano and a Mexican
associate in camouflaging the 50% American ownership of Permargo.
Eventually, Diaz Serrano would take control of Permargo, before moving on to
head Pemex, Mexico’s government oil monopoly. Shortly after his five-year stint
at Pemex, he would begin a five-year stint in jail, having defrauded the Mexican
government of $58 million it is still trying to get back.
I do hope Swopa that your implication that the South Koreans were a bunch of helpless pre-industrial natives was accidental.In my experience they are a superbly sophisticated people, with an ability to think laterally not found too often, but I might be biassed.
Seriously though, I have often thought that US mistakes abroad arose from a misapplication of the lessons of Korea. Go back if you will to Vietnam and apply the same lens.
The reasons the South Koreans were happy with the US presence, and as long ago as the early 1980s happy might be overstating it a bit,was simply this. North Korea started about 15 miles from the outskirts of their capital city. They were afraid of North Korea, and they were probably right to be. The real parallel was the US presence in Europe, especially Britain, which only really ceased when the threat from Russia went away.
Arguably, the USA stayed far too long in South Korea, and at too great a strength.
Anyone who thinks the progress from having the form of democracy, such as existed under Chun Doo Hwan, to the reality of democracy after Rho Tae Woo, was being encouraged by the US Government, simply hasn’t been concentrating.
But of course that distinction would be totally lost on Bushites, not to mention the acolytes of Cheney.
twolf1 @ 31
Tweets: “Tee, hee, hee! Tee, hee, hee! He’s just such a man’s man! I get all goose-pimply just thinkin’ about him runnin’! [drool, slobber] Such a tough guy’s tough guy! Just like GWB on Mission Accompli— ehhh, CUT!”
Waccamaw @ 37
i was tuning him out so I didn’t hear him say it. Maybe it has something to do with his drooling?
The parallels between Iraq and Korea are quite striking. Both occur in the Milky Way and even more, both are to be found in the galaxy’s Orion Arm. It is positively eerie. I mean what are the chances.
But remind me again. Why is it we can talk about similarities between Iraq and Korea but not between Iraq and Vietnam?
Chetnolian @ 42
Show’s you what I know, in 1967 it was 30 miles from Seoul to the DMZ but sprawl has taken over even there. Mickey Mouse corners is probably part of the capitol now!
good eve, fire-peeps
Hugh @ 45
As Bill Murray said, “we’re the US Army we’re 10-1″! He left out the tie.
swopa:
(Your “tolerable fallback” point is right on the mark)
I don’t want to overstate the role the “Likudniks” or PNAC’ers or whatever you want to call them had in this, but Marshall has been far too reticent to discuss them (Billmon was really the boldest about calling them out). For my part, personally, once I understood what a “neoconservative” was and how the neoconservative line was dominant on tv and in my morning paper, I recoiled and tended to see the neoconservatives and omnipresent and omnipotent, a gut feeling that has receded with me. Once you perceive something meant to be a secret, it tends to assume an explanatory power that’s sometimes unwarranted. Still, even if their control over foreign policy is exaggerated by some, guys (and gals, like Judy) working for the Israelis are still very powerful, even if Feith, Libby and Wolfowitz are gone.
One of the problems with “oil” as an explanation — whether it be the issue of extraction rights, exchange currency, leverage over the world supply — is that something changed between Bush I and Bush II. One possible explanation is 9-11: that it made apparent the need to “move the family business” from Saudi Arabia to Iraq. But that doesn’t really convince, because we won’t necessarily ever see that oil under Basra, and oil executives knew that. More importantly, the old guard — Bush I, Baker, Scowcroft, the former Cheney — knew that. There has always been a tension in our foreign policy between loyalty to oil and loyalty to our esteemed ally, Israel, and those old guys put their loyalty to the former first. After them, however — throughout the Clinton administration and with the assumption of power by this Bush — neoconservatives got their hooks in power (people like Woolsey, to name an example, or, almost, Lieberman) and, just as importantly, delivered a decade worth of propaganda about how Bush’s father was a cynical monster (he was) and coward for not “going to Baghdad”.
During this same time Cheney, for example, wasn’t a neoconservative. If you want you can dig up old articles about where he and others (I remember neocon-con fencesitter George Will, for example) broached the idea of relaxing or eliminating the sanctions on Iraq (a la Libya).
Something changed between 1991 and 2001, and I’m not sure it was people’s appreciation of how great oil is.
Hugh @ 45
Because Bush thinks he can make a Korea analogy look good. He’s wrong, of course, because it’s an analogy strained past breaking, but that’s because he’s a damned fool in addition to being Satan’s boy toy.
RevDeb @ 26
Maybe they’re trying to see how far into “1984″ they can get before Americans call bullshit.
Of course it’s about the oil. That was obvious from the start. While I don’t wish to minimize the neo-cons desire to remake the world in their own image, these guys are essentially Ferengi — they only act when they will personally profit from it.
Hugh @ 45
Cosmic, Hugh, cosmic! The comparisons between the upcoming war on Iran and Vietnam will be easier to make, except the use of thermonuclear weapons will beg comparison to an earlier war.
“…billions of dollars’ worth of oil is unaccounted for, with one of the prime suspects being the Shiite militias/political parties that make up the government.”
I think this has more to do with the US firing all those experienced members of the Iraq oil ministry immediately after occupation. In other words: the US got rid of those who knew their job, knew what they are doing.
I can’t help but wonder how much Bush family oil investments have increased in value since 2000.
Here is another outrage. An Iraq Veteran’s “Honorable Discharge” will be taken away due to his protest of the War. Words fail me at the moment!
It’s about oil and empire.
Ed*ard Teller @ 52
Why? Germany never got a nuke built.
EvilDrPuma @ 49
/Snark: For one thing, he’s got an uphill battle against a generation’s memories of how many years of M*A*S*H?
Think Progress links to articles that paints Bush as some type of ape pounding his chest which could be. I’m concerned that with all the money that he is dumping into the green zone and the mess that he is making of Iraq and the region we just might be stuck there.
Raven @46
Yep, and that was when I went to the DMZ in 1987. The sprawl of Seoul has probably crept even closer since.
Regarding the reasons for the invasion of Iraq, what has always been a pet theory of mine, I see has been echoed almost exactly in Atrios’ comment on the discussion over at TPM. From what I wrote in January 05:
Frank33 @ 55
Whatever happened to the general who preached in Church in his uniform…..
Frank33 @ 55
WhJPL @ 62
This article has more information
KC Star
Bush and Olmert will be huddling June 19th. in DC.
RevDeb @ 26
Yep, oil and war powers. I’m having the same bad day.
I find the demands of the Iraqi Oil Workers of Basrah pretty sensible – they have gotten al Maliki to hold off on the hydrocarbon bill for 30 days and address these … but they are threatening a strike if they don’t get what they want:
Iraqi Oil Workers
Chetnolian @ 61
I was on the south side of Munsani at the base of “Charlie Block”. I watched the bike races in the Seoul Olympics and they rode up there. . . it was paved!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 23
That links up with something you said in your post, Swopa — about the lives of American soldiers being cheap to these folks, certainly something they’re willing to pay. Does anybody think the dead at the Pentagon and WTC weren’t a price they were willing to pay to get their hands on levers of unimagined power in our so-called democracy? The oil companies could have hired Osama’s boys as easily as anyone else — or more so. Just look at those long-standing relationships.
BTW, OT and sorry if I missed, it but last night on BBC Newsnight Greg Palast implied he was about to hand over the Rove e-mails he says he has. Has Greg delivered yet?
OKK #41,
OT, but your mention of Zapata Offshore reminded me:
Code name of the Bay of Pigs invasion?
Operation Zapata.
Two of the ships that delivered Brigade 2506 to the beaches?
The Houston and the Barbara.
Just sayin’.
OK kiddo @ 41
The joke was probably on Bush41 then. When I last heard of it, Zapata was pretty much out of the oil bidness (thanks to the MBAs who took over after he left) and it was trying to stay afloat in anything that would make money. (Wikipedia makes it sound like it was barely in existence as an oil company – they mostly did drilling for other companies, IIRC.)
JPL @ 61
Boykin. He got a promotion.
RevDeb @ 72
Here is more about Christianist (and Confederate) indoctrination in the military, Memorial Day celebrates at Stone Mountain:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..02164.html
Raven@43 The military has strict guidelines on when you can wear the uniform. I’m not sure whether or not in this case he followed the guidelines but I do know that a few years ago a top ranking general, I can’t remember his name, violated that by preaching and I do mean preaching in a church. I do not think that he was penalized but I can’t remember his name.
RevDeb @ 72
Lieutenant General William G. Boykin is the United States Deputy Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence. Just the kind of guy we need for objective analysis, no?
Thanks RevDeb
raven @ 67
Full divided highway all the way in 87, up to a big overdone monument, but not sure where we are going here.
BTW my “15 miles” was because I wasn’t sure if all you Yanks would understand 25 kilometres, which is what I actually remember.
It seems that my outrage now shows no bounds.
as addendum to my long #49…
I don’t think you’ll find the key to the war in the foreign policy parts of the Energy Task Force. I suspect that was Cheney’s presentation to our oil magnates of a decision that had already been made.
Hugh @ 74
Fits the pattern, no?
By the way according to Seymour Hersh’s original article on Abu Ghraib, it was Boykin who was sent by Stephen Cambone to Guantanamo to tell Gen. Miller to go to Iraq and “gitmo-ize” Abu Ghraib with the results we all know.
EvilDrPuma @ 50
I think he found this tidbit on the Dem version of the entry test to Yale. “They just don’t get it…”
It really scares me when Bush starts gettin’ all strategery. We all know he failed the foreign policy question on the campaign trail…now he’s trying to convince himself he really earned that ‘A’. Ugh.
brendan @ 79
Agreed — but it still would be interesting to see a transcript of that meeting. I think you’d find the seeds of treason there.
The United States under Bush may have hung the best friend they ever had in Iraq. Saddam. Good business planning Mr. MBA prez.
EvilDrPuma @ 58
Sorry – wandering in and outdoors…
I’m not sure I understand your question. The comparison was to the use, not potential use, of nuclear weapons in WWII. Are you suggesting a war against Iran would be a just war to prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons?
JPL @ 74
Yea, that’s why it really annoyed the shit out of them when we came to DC in our jungle fatigues at Dewey Canyon. Nixon said, “these guy obviously are not vets”! It is touchy when you are active duty, you could get an article 15 for having a peace sign on your car back in the daqy.
This is from Adam Kokesh’s MySpace page.
Ed*ard Teller @ 84
No, I’m suggesting that the U.S. better fits in the German role these days.
RevDeb @ 73
“My God is bigger than his God.”
What would Freud say? Sometimes a God is only a God?
Uniformed service men and women are also not supposed to be used as political props, something Bush routinely does.
allan_in_upstate @ 89
Sometimes a god is just a god.
allan_in_upstate @ 89
“A thing’s a phallic symbol if it’s longer than it’s wide, as the Id goes marching on…”
“it’s under the big W”
Sargent on the Texas State Legislature
Funny!
Hugh @ 92
AHHHH! The dangers of editing.. :)
Frank33 @ 88
This doesn’t seem to be his myspace page.
Hugh @ 45
Because the DFH made us lose in Vietnam, that’s why.
(wingnut causality)
______________________
me three :(
Oklahoma kiddo @ 41
I assume this is Poppy? Chimpy would have been 13 or 14 in 1960. Not that he wouldn’t have behaved in exactly the same way.
raven @ 97
Check his info on the IVAW site
IVAW
I love the brother’s style but this may put him in a world of shit
If I accept this “plea bargain,” I would have to allow you to punish me for speaking my mind, allow you to say that it is somehow less than honorable for thousands of IRR Marines to exercise their freedom of speech, allow you to silence the voices of those whose experiences are most relevant in the most pressing debate before the nation, and allow you to say that Thomas Jefferson was wrong. If this is your intent, I would ask to please, kindly, go f*** yourself. I will not allow it.
Semper Fi,
Adam Kokesh, PFC
Proud F***ing Civilian
allan_in_upstate @ 89
The difference between Boykin and Kokesh is striking. One active duty in full attire preaching anything but separation of church and state and the other attending an anti-war demonstration with name tags, etc removed. As I said earlier my outrage now has no bounds.
spurious @ 99
Yes. That’s the old man.
Hugh @ 90
Republics will be outraged by that once there is a non-Republic President doing it.
allan_in_upstate @ 90
This is what Freud said:
Freud said that the guilt from the murder of Moses is inherited through the generations; this guilt then drives the Jews to religion to make them feel better.
_Moses and Monotheism_ is a vastly under-rated book, IMHO. It ranks next to Wilhelm Reich’s The Mass psychology of Fascism and Wilfred Trotter’s _The Instinct of the Herd in Peace and War_ as books which need to be reassessed.
Evil Dr. Puma – Yes!
Badwater @ 103
Yea, when it was Clinton it was “phoney”.
This concept, in and of itself, is just crazy stupid (not you swopa, ITA this is what Dick thinks). Is this not evidence enough to 5150 Bush/Cheney?
So…sorry if I missed the explanation…what is with the ban of photographs of military flag draped coffins? Is this illegal? or a request? What about freedom of the press and the public’s right to know, etc? I want reminders of the blood on Cheney’s and Bush’s fat hands in their grills 24/7.
I wish they would go sell crazy somewhere else.
So, basically if you want to drive that nice car you saw over at the car dealership or live in that house that is heated with oil, you have to donate one or two of your kids to Iraq or wherever they go next, so that Bush & Co., can profit and provide you with expensive gas for that car and that house. Ah yes, I remember, it’s called the American dream.
OT-I read somewhere today that someone from the WH was being sent to Baghdad (a woman). My impression was that it was someone from Rove’s office. Now, I can’t find it. Anyone know?
LS @ 107
If it were only that egalitarian. Since when did the vast majority of the people in this country have to donate any goddamn thing much less a son or daughter?
solai @ 108
Could it be Sara Taylor?
LS @ 110
She is no longer a government employee.
raven @ 109
This is how they justify everything. Of course, it is not true.
LS @ 112
Sorry, I just get all emotional!
do-si-do @ 106
Defense Department will not allow the press to view the arrival/departure of coffins at Dover AFB. They said it’s bad for morale (bullshit!).
It’s one of the reasons I’m sending my Republican Rep and Senator postcards with the coffins on the front. This is the price America is paying — our sons and daughters, and we’re not even allowed to recognize the sacrifice.
dalloway @ 69
Oklahoma kiddo @ 23
I watched the supposed video of the Pentagon attack at least 20 times but could never see a plane. Looked more like a missile. And there is the explosion of that WTC building that collapsed like a demolition. But this is not something I want to believe.
LS @ 110
I don’t think so. But the blogger noted that she would be far away from Congressional Hearings.
It blows my mind. I was fresh out of college with my first real job and glued to the tube (I got off work at six in the morning) watching the Watergate Hearings. And Bush continues to get away with murder. No hearings.
Brisingamen @ 93
ahem.
raven @ 113
Me too Raven, I’m on your side. I just like to point out how hypocritical their justifications always are. Remember when W accused everyone else of being “addicted to oil”. Who’s really addicted to oil? They are. That’s what they live for. &^&***&^&!!!!fo’s
spurious @ 115
I have only heard of one actual reference to a person saying they saw the airplane hit the Pentagon. It was a student who was killed at V-Tech. CNN reported it.
Oil is all it was ever about. Everything else has been smoke and mirrors.
Bob in HI
Brisingamen @ 114
Thanks Brisingamen. Yes, that part in bold just chaps me.
All this manliness and manhood crap from Bush in his cute little uniform. Is he divorced from reality or WHAT?
What pix are you using on your postcards? I know there was a link a few days ago. But I’ll give you a link in exchange:
We weren’t soldiers
Since we all know it was about oil, what can be done about it? Isn’t there some legal recourse?
There was a reporter who was driving to the Pentagon that day who also saw the plane, right before it hit.
And one of the security people saw it as well. It was a plane, and since it was fully loaded with fuel, it might as well have been a missile.
Brisingamen @ 114
It’s an out of sight out of mind condition. Once again, goes back to ‘Nam…pictures of the coffins coming through Dover helped turn the war tide supposedly
Oklahoma kiddo @ 117
Didn’t you hear about the upcoming Nadler hearings? Constitution in Crisis. Judiciary subcommittee. This is where impeachment hearings can start.
Bob in HI
Oil may be the power in the short term, but the real world power in the future is supplies of fresh water. And guess where the biggest aquifer in the world is. Paraguay. Guarani Aquifer
do-si-do @ 122:
Images of the coffins can be found at:
http://www.thememoryhole.org/w…..tos/dover/
Gotta go — see everyone tomorrow.
Dakine says:
Plus coverage of said coffins on MSM…hello, MSM? Frankly, I think the collective funerals might help bring home the same point. If they get coverage.
Frankly, it reminds me of the fact that Hitler couldn’t bring himself to gaze upon the death camps as his car drove by.
Crazy.
spurious @ 115
I think a new 9/11 Commission needs to do a second round, including an investigation of the allegations in David Ray Griffin’s book, and a number of other loose ends, such as the cooking of intelligence that the first commission purposefully did not look into.
Bob in HI
FYI, new thread
Ted Koppel just on NPR: More people die in auto accidents in the US than have died in Iraq over 4 years. So obviously it’s not the number of deaths that’s important. It’s that Bush and company have done a poor job of explaining why we are in Iraq and why we need to stay there.
I suppose you could use the same kind of argument to defend the burning witches. It’s not the numbers burned. We just need a better explanation.
Koppel is another example of the plague of brain rot afflicting the media.
Someone with big bucks should run silent, flag-draped coffin ads saying nothing more than “support the troops”, during shows like American Idol, Dance with the Stars, etc.
punaise @ 94 (& Swopa) – That’s eery! Good one.
New thread, folks!
(and – OT – really weird food safety news.
Now a US company has been putting melamine in animal food.
Fish and cattle food.
Just another success for the “market” and our food supply.
(h/t Raw)
Hugh @ 132
So is his daughter.
RevDeb @ 81
Is he a clone of Doug Feith?
Bob in HI
LS @ 120
Hard to know what to think about that.
Siun @ 15
When I googled this, a couple of months ago, almost only source was alternet (Dave Holland, I believe); unbelievable, really, that close to no info was available. The media completely silent otherwise. Everyone come to their own conclusions.
uncle toby @ 62 – I pretty much agree with the underlying “group consensus for war” motives you lay out in that comment. New motives have emerged since, no doubt, as well.
Here’s a response I hope Paul in LA will see to the EPUed comment he made in yesterday’s Rahm thread disputing claims of involvement or benefits to Israel in our actions where Iraq and Iran are concerned [this also touches on brendan’s point @ 49 above regarding Josh Marshall’s silence on the Li*ud Lobby front]:
Paul in LA @ 114 (of the Rahm video thread) – I’m curious about your confidence here:
I think I understand and could agree with this statement, as it relates to Iraq, when we compare pre-invasion Iraq to post-invasion Iraq.
But, at this juncture, Israel has to confront the realities of post-invasion Iraq (never mind the long gone pre-invasion Iraq), and surely the Israeli government is extremely interested in how the nation of Iraq develops from here on out?
In that regard, which do you suppose the neoconservative-aligned Israeli government would favor? A strong, nationalist, centrally-controlled Iraq which has maintained control over its $21 TRILLION dollar untapped oil and gas resources in all three major regions? Or a weak, decentralized, separatist Iraq functioning as a loose confederation of three separate regions, that have ceded control over the majority of the extremely valuable Iraqi oil resources because of the passage of the American-written Iraq “hydrocarbon law” – a key “benchmark” in the supplemental that Rahm Emanuel helped get to President Bush for signing?
[That hydrocarbon bill amounts to a massive theft of another country’s assets by way of a war of aggression and a permanent military occupation that mirrors the naked grabs for the lands of other countries that Hitler made. This parallel is not just mind-bending, it shows how insidiously corrupt individuals (such as those funding and enabling and obeying A*P*C) can manipulate the plight of the Jewish victims of Hitler into a ‘permanent victim’ status (for every Jew everywhere, forever, apparently, but especially for Israel) that is then used to justify and conceal brutal and nefarious actions in the pursuit of power and wealth. How long before anyone finally says ‘enough’ - you’ve become the enemy you claim to despise?]
If those two choices – American Empire exercised through multinational corporate control enforced by U.S. military might, or Iraqi national sovereignty in accordance with international law and principle (though with more than a little Iranian influence, no doubt) – are what it comes down to in Iraq today, then Israel’s government has a huge vested interest in taking sides, doesn’t it? [If only to stay “friends” with Washington, regardless of the best interests of the people of Israel and peace in the region.]
Israel’s government, like ours, is often not looking out for the best interests of the Israeli people or their nation – but when it comes to the likes of the AmericanIsraelPublicAffairsCommittee, I think the true interests of the Israeli people as a whole don’t even begin to factor in… [Just as the American Enterprise Institute (or almost any other corporate-funded “think tank”), for example, is most certainly not in the business of advocating policy that is in the best interests of the American people as a whole.]
Yet, nevertheless, A*P*C has tremendous clout in the United States Congress, as we have seen, using the horrors of the Holocaust as their “good-guy” disguise and the justification for all manner of brutal behavior, especially against today’s ‘real bad guys’ in their minds, Iran:
http://www.salon.com/news/feat…../16/aipac/
Never mind that the vast majority of Jewish Americans (and many Israelis, no doubt) repudiate the hard-core A*P*C foreign lobby agenda, Congress remains on bended knee before this well-financed, well-connected, and very powerful – oh yeah, and hostile to the interests of the American people – organization.
Enter enforcer Rahm Emanuel (with, I’m afraid, a lot of help from Carl Levin along with many other Members of Congress) to keep his mediocre colleagues in line for that hostile, foreign lobbyist-imposed agenda, at all costs. If they’re going to forcefully impose this hidden agenda of theirs on the American people, we at least ought to have the right to talk about it and vehemently and publicly disagree with it in this “democracy” of ours, oughtn’t we? Tell us the truth, Members of Congress.
Hugh @ 132
Um, yeah. More people died in car wrecks than at VTech that fateful day, too. Hmm.
We need a better explanation? You mean the first dozen or so didn’t work? So the strategy is, try another line on the American people?
Thanks Ted! I’m feeling oh so better now having been reduced to a PallMall smokin’ floozy in a cowboy bar who’s just lookin for love in all the wrong places.
Bob Schacht @ 130
I wish that would happen. This administration and the ‘vast right-wing conspiracy’ are making me into a conspiracy theorist.
LS @ 133
Rove wouldn’t allow it.
Did anyone catch Ted Koppel on NPR this afternoon? A proponent of the war, he went on a long diatribe about the number of deaths, 43000, by car accidents each year alone, and that people to do not pay attention to traffic details, than related it to the 3500 American deaths over the course of the war, stated that because we do not “hear a peep about the number of car deaths, 3500 deaths over 5 years diminishes in importance.” Then, finally, someone on the neo-con side, finally, finally, Koppel says, and I am paraphrasing: Americans do not like to hear that we are exchanging blood for oil. But we are, and if Americans cannot come to grips with it, then he is sure they will complain more loudly about issues related to automobiles and traffic (because of the increase in the price of oil if the middle east controlled the oil). He implies that we should shut up, let the adults manage this war, keep things “in perspective” and be thankful that OPEC keeps our gas at $3.60. At least he comes out and says it.
You know, if Cheney came out and said, “look, I think we need to secure the oil fields, not let the Shia dominate the region, and keep a large presence there”, I would at least think they have America’s best interests in mind, not a small select group of Texans. Instead, it is empty rhetoric about jihadism, crazy leaders and armageddon. He thinks we are children.
Get Tough @ 144
I’m surprised he didn’t use the anology of 5he amount of journalists killed in Iraq.
Well don’t you think that we need to occupy Iraq in order to keep the Chinese out? Or are we going to hold Iraq (or should I say it’s oil) as a chip to play against our debt that they hold?
No wonder the Democrats caved on the war spending. I think we are fucked if we do and fucked if we don’t. The difference is that one is rape.
Brisingamen @ 124
2 or 3 people? That’s all? Get real.
I am going to invade my neighbour’s house so my neighbour’s cannot invade their house.
See how thoughtful I am? Even ‘virtuous?’
Definately ‘Godly.’
Ted Koppel just on NPR: More people die in auto accidents in the US than have died in Iraq over 4 years. So obviously it’s not the number of deaths that’s important. It’s that Bush and company have done a poor job of explaining why we are in Iraq and why we need to stay there
therefore it is perfectly reasonable to station the national guard in the passing lane on most interstate highways!!!
“It’s not that the chaos in Iraq is an intentional mechanism by which the U.S. neocons/hawks sought to impose their will on the country”
It’s NOT? What planet do you live upon?
•Failing to deploy sufficient troops to stabilize the country (*Rumsfeld at one point wanted 25,000 troops total).
•Failing to guard HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF TONS of high-explosives, IED artillery shells, munitions, nuclear material from looting.
• Deploying deathsquad racist mercenaries from around the world, and giving them a total legal waiver.
• Firing every gay Arabic translator they could round up.
• Allowing the UN to be driven from the country. Refusing to allow the UN or the local countries to establish any sort of local force from within the Muslim cultures.
• Full deBaathification without any process; disbanding the entire Iraqi security apparatus (after promising the Joint Chiefs that they would be available to stabilize the borders).
• Failing entirely to reestablish bombed out sewage, water, electricity.
•Failing to support the electrical/water/sewage needs of hospitals; failing to supply Hague Convention required assistance to injured non-combatants.
•Refusing to provide ANY process for redressing wrongs, for investigating incidents, for any sort of legal occupation authority.
•Carrying out repeated pogroms on entire cities, using white phosphorus as an anti-personnel weapon.
•Dropping hundreds of thousands of tons of half-strength uranium on Iraq (which is an act of genocide).
•Doing nothing about the refugee crisis.
•Threatening ongoing war and occupation forever, in the effort to terrorize the Iraqi people into a desperate insurgency.
• Taking over oil supplies, and failing to meter their rape. Forcing the transitional Iraqi gov’t to sign away their sovereign oil rights.
•Deploying armies of Christian missionaries, and calling the action a ‘Crusade.’
•Lying about the causes of the invasion. Falsely stigmatizing the entire Iraqi people to justify the invasion and brutal occupation.
I could list probably ten other major actions CLEARLY INTENDED as EXACTLY “an intentional mechanism by which the U.S. neocons/hawks sought to impose their will on the country.”
What are you SMOKING?
Pass the hallucinogens, because your statement is RIDICULOUS on its face.
dead last @ 146
It’s been said the Republicans gave Americans reason to fear and then they used that to force us to accede to their policies, particularly attacking Iraq and staying there.
But, wasn’t it also the Republicans who killed the alternative-fuels research program during Reagans admin. and then spent us into terrible debt (building who knows what military junk we don’t need), so we were much weaker than we needed to be? Wasn’t the the Republicans who have driven America into debt and then allowed, perhaps even tempted, American corporations to go overseas and leave America far weaker than it needed to be?
They keep trying to destroy America and the Democrats haven’t stood against them very well.
Now they say China will get the oil or Iran won’t sell it to us or some other lies, so they can convince us we have to kill our kids by sending them to Iraq to steal oil.
Had enough?
Oh yeah, one more item: “Bring It ON!
No, neocons weren’t involved in fomenting rebellion or war.
•They are a hapless bunch of idiots, and two of them are busy redeveloping our nuclear arsenal.
Oh, and they changed the nuclear use policy in 2005 to say that nuclear weapons were OK for use “if they will insure a positive outcome.”
Nothing to worry about.
Isn’t it about time that a “war tax” was levied on the profits of U.S. oil companies?
A “war tax” that, by law, couldn’t be passed onto U.S. gasoline customers?
I mean, Bush, Cheney’s secretive Energy Task Force and the oil companies that must have been part of this secretive Energy Task Force are the one’s responsible for starting a war of agression against Iraq…for control of Iraqi oil.
Thus, a “war tax” on the oil companies responsible for unleashing the evil of Bush, Cheney and the Iraq War on us, the citizens of Iraq and the rest of the world makes perfect sense.
Clearly the Neocons’ control-the-oil plan couldn’t work from eight thousand miles away, but what’s the evidence that such became immediately apparent to those who believed it could succeed? To this day, I feel sure, some of them still intend to fight to the last drop of everyone else’s blood to put the entire Persian Gulf under the benign protection of the United States military.
They just cannot accept that their enormously expensive military-industrial complex is unable to control every corner of the world, quickly, with an acceptable level of death. U.S. power is like a religion to them, something they accept by faith rather than by reason.
Their self-deception predates even the Reagan presidency, going back to the first oil crisis in 1973, when some Americans, confronted with lines at the gas pump, sought and received a quickie divorce from reality. Ever since then they have had nightmares involving comic book Arabs sitting on top of oil fields which, they feel sure, we actually own.
It is certain that since late 2000 when the rightfully elected 43rd president was shut out of the Oval office due to the worst of insider lever pulling and political malice the course was set for what now is the genuine debacle of Iraq.
As Paul in LA above at 5:23pm fully expanded on it does now appear to have been a deliberate tactic of the Bush regime to blow up Iraq’s established ruling structures fully and relentlessly. To deliberately sow deep dysfunction,social chaos and castrate any Iraqi resistance to American intents and desires in Iraq. One can easily imagine the benefits to be derived for putting in the super-bases,the embassy citadel in Baghdad and extracting claims and rights on Iraqi oil fields from such a tactic.
By obliterating Iraqi infrastructure,civil organization,unleashing mayhem and setting in motion a growing Iraqi refugee flow due to several ongoing mini-wars of rival factions and ransom/death dealing Americans now have their very own WestBank and Gaza. Just like the Israelis have done and do then too the Americans now can harness the ongoing/endless mayhem and dysfunction to cloak and justify other,deeper intents and goals.
Invading Iraq was fully a detour from any rational GWOT strategy considering Saddam did not endorse alQaeda and the 9/11 attackers were largely from Saudi Arabia…not Iraq.
The GWOT can not be a fact-based,valid rationale for invading Iraq which was under a very strong,tight net after the Kuwait Oil War.An Iraq that had no operational air force–an Iraq that was proscribed with no-fly zones control in both the south and north–an Iraq that was under a regime of sanctions that allowed little in way of doing anything other than little or nothing.
Shock and Awe was deeply about showcasing American militarism via the long range standoff missile attacks,the laser guided bombs and the ability to smother any Iraqi responses with ruthless suppression.
It should be pretty plain at this point in mid 2007 that Shock and Awe was intended to open Iraq for full American blow apart and insertion of American desires and intents.
The Iraqis,like so many before them,are not going to give in nearly so easy. It must be a great shove backwards to G.W.Bush that he is being held away from his coveted basking in glory as victor in Iraq. He won’t admit to this colossal failure and Americans will be paying dearly for his hubris long after late Jan. 2009.
To judge from recent days of a report that Bush may have expressed he is fully set on digging the USA very deep into Iraq how tragically true that last thought appears to be.
pow wow @ 140
I did NOT dispute claims of involvement. The rightwing neocon aligned Israeli gov’t is up to their necks in taking extremist PNAC risks (undoubtedly for huge payoffs).
My point was that Rep. Emanuel is NOT a dual-citizen as you or someone claimed. Furthermore, Rep. Emanuel’s relationship to Israeli is not necessarily equivalent to supporting the neocons or the Israeli rightwing in their warcrimes.
Those factions are brewing a perhaps life-ending conflict in the next twenty years if not this year. How could that be in Israel’s interest? I don’t believe AIPAC relationships are equivalent to becoming a robot, either, but that’s a different point.
“In that regard, which do you suppose the neoconservative-aligned Israeli government would favor?”
I have talked with Israeli agents who regretted not killing all the Arabs when they had the chance. I’m not unclear on the racism of Zionists. Those racist elements LOVE what is going on, until you mention that Bush allowed Cesium and Strontium to be taken from Tuwaitha, along with hundreds of thousands of tons of HMX. Then they blanche. It’s a very dangerous conspiracy, that spreads the methods and materials of war.
There are extremists in all countries, but the rightwing takeover of the US and Israel is a mutual tragedy, not some sort of brililant success.
The Congress is not voting on any such contract in Iraq. It was an effort to twist the emergency supplemental into an effort to register displeasure in the policy (which, horrible as it is, was in fact an accomplishment). Not obstructing the inclusion of such material is basic to politics, though leftists think that you can do politics without conceding to power.
That’s certainly so, but it is still a concession that allowed that bill to go forward. Leftists also complained about earmarks. But you apparently cannot get Blue Dogs to vote tough bills with the caucus without earmarks.
Howard Dean has a LOT more work to do.
Sorry, “hundreds of thousands of tons of” explosives, including ~200 tons of HMX.
Arming the enemy, btw, is the definition of TREASON.
And PETN? The stuff that Richard Reid tried to light his shoe on fire and blow up the plane? The stuff that blew up the Pan Am over Scotland?
Bush has let slip enough PETN to blow up 16,000 airliners (5.6 metric tons).
Maybe Halliburton has it. Certainly there’s no way the US would have five spy satellites watching every square inch of Iraq, and would have watched this stuff being hauled away, pickup truck after pickup truck.
Dick Cheney’s Walmart of Terror.
All by accident. Oops. It’s the pottery barn nightmare.
love to photo from Mad, Mad, Mad, etc. what an amazing movie that was.
oh, and do you need the two periods at the end of the title? you really mean “us”, right?