Marty Lederman at Balkinization has tracked down the speech that Phil Zelikow gave at University of Houston last month. The NYTimes reported a bit on the speech, entitled "Legal Policy From A Twilight War," in an article yesterday that detailed criticisms of the Bush Administration's interrogation policies. Scarecrow talked about the NYTimes article yesterday, and Marty's speech find takes the discussion several steps further:
The "new paradigm" that Zelikow describes has at least nine specified elements. I have a feeling that this is a bit of wishful thinking — that although the "new paradigm" Zelikow describes surely is the preferred plan of action favored by the State Department, it is not necessarily the one the President will adopt, largely because of intense opposition from the Vice President's Office.
Why do I say this? Well, for one thing, one of the elements Zelikow identifies is an alleged decision "that America does intend to close Guantanamo," at least once it decides "how to replace and improve the Guantanamo detention system." This was, to be sure, the proposal favored by Secretaries Gates and Rice. But if press reports are to be believed, the President rejected this view, on the advice of Cheney and Gonzales….
The principal thrust of Zelikow's lecture is that many of the decisions in this armed conflict, especially concenring interrogation methods, have been too dominated by legal determinations. In this respect, Zelikow is critical of both the Administration officials and its critics — he strongly believes that far too much attention has been paid to questions of what is legal, and not remotely enough to questions of what is moral, and what the practical and long-term costs might be of adopting certain policies.
"[M]y argument," writes Zelikow, "is that the substitution of detailed legal formulations for detailed moral ones is a deflection of responsibility."
Surely that is correct. The fact that something is (arguably) legal does and should not come close to resolving the question of whether that course of action should be adopted. And all too often in this Administration, it has appeared as though once the lawyers developed a legal justification, it was all-systems-go, damn the consequences, with little regard for any moral calculus or a serious long-term view of the potential costs.
But it does not follow that the law is unimportant, or that critics of the Administration — who have not been shy about relying on moral, pragmatic, diplomatic and strategic arguments, as well — should abjure the resort to legal arguments. After all, if something is illegal — such as the cruel treatment proscribed in Common Article 3 — that ought to be the end of the discussion of whether to employ such a technique. The question of legality, in other words, does not, as Zelikow suggests, "obscure[] the core of the issue," any more than it displaces the "core" moral and pragmatic questions. Rather, it precedes those core questions, and might, as in this case, actually preclude the need to fight about such core issues in cases where there might be dissensus within the government.
Yes, when all else fails, blame the lawyers. The fact that the small coterie of lawyers who rationalized our way into serial illegal actions were a group that warped the law to fit around their goals rather than evaluating the goals based on the law as it stood – that had the Administration bothered to consult with pretty much any lawyer with a background in international, constitutional or ethical legal practice experience, or even simply listened to the JAG lawyers who have been telling them all along that what they were doing violated both the spirit and the letter of the UCMJ, for starters? Well, that would have required all of them to want to do the right thing — as opposed to doing the thing they wanted to do by whatever justification they had to gin up in order to do it with cover.
Because, you know Phil, you and every other Republican in the government has had absolutely no responsibility for the "go along and get along" enabling of the Bush Administration to do whatever it damn well pleased, regardless of the immediate and long-term moral and legal consequences, Right? Wrong. Welcome to that newfangled word I like to call "complicity."
Zelikow's analysis on the ethical paucity of the Bush Administration's treatment of prisoners of this shadow war, the critique of the thin and faulty rationalizations that Addington, Libby and Yoo's merit badge program for the Cheney Brigade put together to allow Cheney's shadow national security goons and Pentagon devotees a free hand at whatever episode of 24 they wanted to play act next on the international stage? It's pointed in places and correct — but it is six years too late to have prevented all of the actions taken in our name which demean the very values for which we are supposed to stand.
Don't get me wrong, it is about time folks on all sides of this issue — especially those close to the Administration who can fill in some of the murky details on what discussions may or may not have taken place behind closed doors and locked loyalty oaths. It is well past time that some of these people stood up publicly for our nation's moral and legal obligations. But wouldn't that have been more effective if they'd stood up before we started breaking the law in the first place?
The Republicans in the political operative wing, in the bobblehead brigades and especially in both Houses of Congress and the Bush Administration's minion eschalons have to answer for every rubber stamp they gave over the last six years — and especially for the lack of any real oversight, any request for public accountability, anything at all other than "yes, sir, and when can I expect my next round of campaign donations?" And that is a lot of answering. Let the sun shine in…
(Photo of woman at the church in Coronado via Percy deSaint.)



162 Comments





Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Firedoglake
ha
Zed?! (I doubt it.)
Dang. Just missed. Congrats, raven.
Diane Rehms show focused on Universal Health care coverage, right now! 10 a.m. est Questions comments…drshow@wamu.org 1-800-433-8850
just e-mailed a comment asking them to explain the Kucinich/Conyers Universal Single Payer Health care system H.R. 676.
Many Folks from Ohio are so proud of Kucinich!
Coyoteville @ 2
Even a blind squirrel gets an acorn now and then.
Thanks Christy, OfT and epu’d, I linked to a terrific Linda Greenhouse article about Justice Ginsburg.
The irony is they consider themselves the moral majority & compassionate conservatives.
Gore’s giving a speech on CSPAN1 now
from Tuesday
Speaking of lawyers, I asked last night when Joanie Caucus Redfern was going to properly protest her alma mater (Boalt) hiring John Yoo.
One person claimed to understand the reference… ;})
If Norman Podheretz was from Iran and was pushing for Iran to bomb the U.S. he would be called a TERROIST AND MUCH MUCH MORE.
Why is it so hard for these right wing radicals like Podheretz, Bolton, Perle, Cheney to walk a mile in someone else’s shoes? Or walk with bare feet?
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/….._0530.html
Elliott @ 9
Saw this last night – he just blew me away. Anyone who can watch it, do!
Diane @ 8
How much more of the Bush administration’s “compassionate conservatism” can the Iraqi people (650,000 dead, thousands injured, millions are refugees) or the American people take?
And, in fact, their “legal considerations” were sophomoric exercises in causistry.
dakine01 @ 10
Dang! I missed that – when was that printed? I thought I read Doonesbury everyday. I would have gotten the reference. Speaking of which, has anyone seen The Good Shepherd? Robert de Niro’s film about the founding of the CIA. Very interesting how Skull and Bones is its backbone, so to speak.
OT –
The LA Times is reporting that the former MN US Attorney, Tom Heffelfinger, was targeted for firing because he was targeting a law that disenfranchised Native Americans in Minneapolis (tribal ID cards were not acceptable for voting off Rez). The investigation was killed by two Bush hacks in the civil rights division — Brad Schlozman and Hans Von Spakovsky.
Kathleen @ 13
Gosh, I think the 650,000 figure goes back to October of last year, if I am not mistaken – imagine what it is now.
Mandrake @ 12
Thanks for the heads up on Gore’s speech. Please run, Al, give us a strong candidate to rally around.
Fogged in solid here in Santa Monica again this a.m. Bon voyage to Mutant Poodle, if he’s around, who is leaving on a trip to Alaska tomorrow & promises to link some Alaska pix here.
OT- Sometimes it’s even tougher than usual reading McClatchy’s Iraq police blotter first thing in the morning. Seems extra long today:
Round Up of Violence in Iraq 5/30/07
Gnome de Plume @ 15
Yoo’s name came up during Lew Kock’s thread on Padilla and that he was at Boalt which triggered my memory of Joanie being a “graduate” of Boalt…
Unfortunately, Trudeau has not yet put Joanie onto Yoo’s case. Methinks she would react pretty much the same as Christy and Marcy have…
If — and it’s a big “if” — we manage to get out of this mess with an intact democratic Republic, the United State will need its equivalent of a Truth and Reconciliation Commission,
Because what Christy says here:
is what has been been malignantly eating away at the body politic since Iran-Contra, if not Watergate.
That so many mistake “authority” for “legitimacy”, and “cronyism” for “governance” is sad. Until people are made to see that the rule of law applies to all, we are far greater risk of losing our country than we are from any terrorist threat.
Dakine – wait, was that your suggestions that Joanie protest or has that been part of the strip? I only read yesterday that Yoo was at Yale instead of Berkeley. I wonder if you pass his course only by flunking it? Or if it is a test – if you pass his course you are on your way to a SCOTUS appointment or AG under a GOPer regime?
dakine01 @ 10
You know who I really miss? Lacey Davenport. One of the truly honorable Republican representatives in Congress. Her career was an inspiration to all those who respect public service.
Remember when she visited the soldiers in Iraq in 1991? Handbag, hat, and MREs with the infantry. No plastic turkey for her.
Here’s what Henry thinks
LA Times
[Mod Note; Edited by Mod for length. To help keep the FDL servers running smoothly and to avoid any copyright issues, please do not post entire articles — include a link instead. Thank you. ]
Marie Roget @18: I want this man for my President!! I will gladly share, but I want him and I want him now!!
I think someone should patch together a YouTube video, comparing and contrasting Gore’s command of language and complex concepts against Bush’s desecrations of the English language, total lack of imagination and plain, old-fashioned stupidity.
Just put in little clips of each one speaking on one similar subject at a time, back to back, Gore v. Bush on global warming, Gore v. Bush on Iraq, etc., over and over again. If I knew how to do it and had the technical ability, I’d do it.
kathleen – Why is the World Bank job so important to the Neocons? Ostensibly, the WB serves the world’s poor – not a traditional Neocon concern.
What gives?
Gnome de Plume @ 21
It’s my suggestion that she protest…she hasn’t YET. I think someone had Yoo teaching at Yale by mistake; that’s where he graduated.
Mandrake @ 12
holy cow… just started listening. this is great…
Mandrake @ 24
I’m w/you Mandrake. Gore’s speech now running on CSPAN proves everything you’re saying & then some. If Al throws his hat in, expect that video to appear & many more like it…
radiofreewill @ 25
I’ve got a bridge you might be interested in…..
Swordswoman @ 22
Lacey was an honorable Repub in the old school tradition. I think she would have changed parties by now.
I agree the ChimpCo’s “legal formulations” are nothing but an adhoc “legalization” of ChimpCo’s amoral policies. Luckily for ChimpCo they had a number of John Yoos and Gonzos happy to do their bidding. These are people who are capabale of bypassing the acting AG by forcing their way into the ICU.
radiofreewill @ 25
The World Bank only loans to the upper echelons of the political realm of whatever country they “give” to. It is a huge source of wealth, graft and corruption within those countries. The money rarely gets to the poor who actually need it. That is why microloan programs are so much more effective and empowering. Another reason microloaning is so important is that women receive the bulk of them and they do a great job of lifting themselves up and paying back their loans.
raven @ 23
Kissinger needs to take up croquet or shuffleboard or some other hobby. The man did enough damage with Vietnam; he’s already done his fair share with this war, advising Bush to “stay the course” to overcome the insurgency.
Now we’re supposed to listen to a lifetime-long loser?
Hit the bricks, Henry.
edit: Key graf from Henry in 2005 –
Yeah. Sure. We’ve seen how that’s worked out, nearly 21 months later.
Shirking responsibility is a quality prized by modern day Republics. What else would you expect by a Party that would select George W. Bush as its leader?
Mandrake @ 24
and gore just keeps getting better and better* – while bush gets worse and worse.
* if you don’t believe me give a listen to the evolution of his speeches since 2002.
Marie Roget @ 28
Honestly, I was looking at him, listening to him and I’m thinking, he could be the FDR of the 21st century – this man could actually save us from ourselves, if only given a chance. I know that sounds melodramatic, but that’s just how incredible he was. I enjoyed “An Inconvient Truth” but b/c he is addressing the root of what is wrong with America right now, it resonated more with me because I feel that if we don’t get to the root of the problem, we can forget about doing anything about global warming or any other various ills because we simply will not have the resources to stop war and improve our conditions at home.
And here I was thinking that Boalt was Trudeau’s joking reference to Yale – as in Yale Locks, Screws and Bolts. Oh well, you can see that there are no Berkeley grads in my family. Stanford, yes. Berkeley, no.
I find Zelikow’s distinction between moral issues and legal ones to be – at best – disingenuous. Surely, the basis for any sound legal system should be an underlying morality. This would be the only objective basis for law.
-MS
This article by Hartman just about says it all about the Repugs plan.
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/23130
selise @ 35
Ooooh, thanks for the linky. I hope they post a transcript of this one up there.
Morning Christy.
Thank you! Boy. When you get back from vacation, you land with both feet, running full tilt.
Let me see if i have this lil’ bit correctly.
If any course of action, no matter how heinous, can be rationalized even by the most twisted & tortured logic, so-as to make it appear not to be covered in all its ramifications by existing law, … it’s just hunky dory & A-Okayyyyy! Ethics schmethics!
And anyone who would pay lawyers to craft such dreadfully evil policy would be… free as a boid and calm in the depths of his soul?
Can’t be done! *crossing fingers*
even a three-year-old would know better….
these people should not be in office
!IMPEACH! jrshootergonzo
Rayne @ 33
Better yet, the Herr Doktor might want to take a trip to Belgium.
james @ 29
Is it more about ‘controlling the money’ than “giving the assistance?’ Is this a ’spigot’ that can be used to financially assist emerging Countries?
Is the Neocon intent to ‘politically’ control which Countries emerge from crushing poverty, disease and ignorance by tying the money to ideological conformance?
Michael in Park Slope @ 38
Hence the systematic undermining of the legal system in this country, like the rejection of habeas corpus and the corruption of DOJ offices, obstruction of a multitude of corruption investigations — the legal system has been far too moral.
Better for who exactly?
The senator, (Lieberman) who’s steadfastly supported the Iraq war along with the current surge of more than 28,000 additional American troops, said things were better.
He wrote them all down. At the top of his note card was the question he got from nearly every one of his fellow soldiers:
“When are we going to get out of here?”
As Lieberman walked out, he said that congressionally mandated withdrawal would be a “victory for al-Qaida and a victory for Iran.”
Lieberman talks to troops in Baghdad
http://www.realcities.com/mld/…..300884.htm
Gnome de Plume @ 21
I saw that too, but I think it’s an error.
dead last @ 16
Well that will be a nice, juicy line of questioning for Leahy and company on Tuesday.
Senate Judiciary Hearing
Rayne @ 44 – I believe we are in agreement.
I wonder if GW Bush ever won an argument with D Cheney? If he did we might be seeing some changes.
Here’s to President Bush having the last word in the Whitehouse.
selise @ 27
Run Al Run!! He calls a Neocon a Neocon in this speech. He is awesome.
Where is John Yoo working again? Berkeley? Stanford? I can’t believe it.
Kissinger advises GWB. Kissinger is a “wanted man”. In several countries he dare not travel to.
Adrian C @ 49
the frogblaster?
hm-m-m.
Gnome de Plume @ 37
IIRC, Trudeau set things up with Berkeley and they “agreed” that Joanie could matriculate there. I’d have to check my old Doonesbury books for sure, but they may even have published her “picture” with the appropriate graduating class…
Mandrake @ 40
they is me. i will add any links that i find – or that you tell me about *g*
Michael in Park Slope @ 38
Well that’s SUPPOSED to be the guiding force behind Pat Robertson U Law School; bringing “Christian morality and values” into the arena.
Helen @ 47
I hope Leahy gives them both barrels. You know this would have to something Gonzo would to have to approved.
I seriously doubt that Bush ever won an argument on the play ground. But now the world is ‘his’ sandbox.
PS, the thing I really like about what Gore is doing is he is giving concise analysis of complex problems that thinking people are already concerned about and how they can be solved without sounding wishy-washy like Obama. He can’t be accused of being alarmist or negative (except by the radical right, of course, which never presents proof to back up their claims), because he does leave one with a grain of hope, not the Obama kind of hope-hype, but reality-based hope.
He gives me hope because he speaks to my real concerns about discourse and the msm and is offering reality-based, really common-sense advice on how to counter the misinformation – things I never thought of before, but make perfect sense!
Of course, I suppose it’s exactly because he’s not running right now that he feels he has the freedom to do this. If he does throw his hat in, he should continue on as he is now, ignore Fox and its wannabe’s b/c they will always call him “unhinged” since they can’t come up with a speck of dirt on the man – that’s all they can do is tell people he’s crazy and bank on them believing it.
radiofreewill @ 43
DINGDINGDING!!!
OKK at 45 — I have something coming up on that shopping excursion in a bit.
Holy crap. I have to believe that HoJoe is a true believer, otherwise according to that article, it as if he tries to play the soldiers like . . . Otherwise he’s 100% amoral. NONE of their complaints will be addressed. I know this as experience as “his constituent.”
Everything we have witnessed in the last 7 years is the personal agenda of Bush himself. All roads lead to Bush. It is not Gonzo, it is not Cheney, it is not Rove. Bush tells them all what he wants and they figure out how to get it done legal or not, moral or not.
dakine01 @ 56
That’s not the type of “morality” which I had in mind. Rather the objective type espoused by, say, Plato or Aristotle. I find the concept of “Christian Morality” to be an oxymoron.
-MS
selise @ 55
Awesome! Good work, thanks!
Wait’ll the wingers hear that the latest strategy in Iraq is to negotiate with the terrorists.
-GSD
Oklahoma kiddo @ 58
There’s no need to win arguments when your dad fixes all problems for you. Too bad George H.W. Bush won’t step up now and fix his son’s biggest screwup.
OT — my postcards with the flag-draped coffins arrived yesterday. I will be mailing two out today to my Republican Congresswoman and Senator.
My Democratic Senator voted against the supplemental so he got a ‘thank you’ note instead.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 61
I have no words to describe by disbelief Christy. No words.
LS @ 63
Bush is really more of a “useful idiot” for Cheney and Rove than he is their leader.
Brisingamen @ 68
Where did you get the postcards?
Michael in Park Slope @ 64
I would caveat that only to the extent of saying “Christian Morality” as practiced by the Pat Robertsons of this world.
However, there are those amongst us at the Lake and in the world who actually DO practice and exhibit morality as taught by Jesus. IN those instances, Christian morality is a VERY good thing to be applauded and lauded.
Badwater @ 67
He tried – it was the Iraq “solutions” group that he had consigliere Baker put together, but frogblaster threw a hissy fit and ran the other way.
dakine01 @ 30
*Ding!*
Amen, dakine01. And I bet she’d have been tearing up the place in Congressional hearings. Anyone recall if she served on House Judiciary?
two points:
1. there is no such thing as ‘objective’ morality
2. the only ‘objective’ basis for laws is the preservation of the property and privileges of social elites…
imho
Oklahoma kiddo @ 58
*G*
Pardon me, but don’t you mean litterbox?
Mandrake @ 65 –
i had collected these gore speeches over time for my own interest, and put up the page after discussing them one day with RevDeb, scarecrow and Kathryn in MA in order to share them.
turns out lots of people have found ‘em useful…
Dakine01 @ 72 said:
“I would caveat that only to the extent of saying “Christian Morality” as practiced by the Pat Robertsons of this world.
However, there are those amongst us at the Lake and in the world who actually DO practice and exhibit morality as taught by Jesus. IN those instances, Christian morality is a VERY good thing to be applauded and lauded.”
Needless to say that, although I’m no fan of ANY organized religion, I was deriding the Pat Robertson variety of “Christian Morality.”
-MS
Wow…this thing with Al Gore is a question and answer session. Just wow!
selise @ 77
Seeing Gore in person is an unbelievable experience. He is so relaxed, so precise, so fabulous. I felt like a groupie at a Beatle’s concert! There was a great cartoon last week – Auth or Toles I think that had him towering over the other D candidates as he strode into the room saying, “I’m just here for a book signing.” I think of Thomas Jefferson when I see Al Gore.
Swordswoman @ 74
I went and checked my books and don’t believe so; at least not at the appropriate time frmae (Nixon years)
Christy, once again great post.
Philip Zelikow is one of the most dangerous and effective neo-conservatives. His war crimes are just as bad as Liz and Dick Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld and the rest of the capos of the Bush Crime Family.
To review, The political patronage of Bush Crime Family began with the transition team which Zelkow was part of. Zelikow committed perjury, concealed evidence and obstructed justice as Chairman of the 9-11 Commission. The deconstruction of Iraq was helped by Zelikow while with the State Deptartment.
I have posted several times about Zelikow and I made it a personal campaign for him to resign. Athough I cannot take credit, he has resigned from the State Dept. We need to make sure he gets the blame that he and all the neo-cons have earned.
Badwater @ 70
I used to think that too, but now I don’t anymore. They want us to believe that because it protects Bush, and he wants it that way. I believe he calls the shots – even he tells us that, but no one believes him and no one holds him truly accountable for anything. Everybody keeps letting him off the hook. People think he couldn’t possibly be that powerful. He is. Their M.O. is to get everyone running up the wrong tree on a bunch of wild goose chases…that rarely amount to anything, while they continue executing W’s neocon agenda. Smoke and mirrors.
Michael in Park Slope @ 78
I agree. But I do find the teachings of Jesus to be good moral guides. Especially the Golden Rule and the Beattitudes.
Shiny object time on MSNBC today. Total TB coverage…. until… sex crime time.
Reporting on the 18-yr-old brother of Jessica Lunsford [sp?] fondling a 14-yr-old girl [with consent, according to victim’s mother]. Boyoboy are there triggers in this story. Is this a Romeo and Juliet as the father says? Florida statutes seem clear it’s a crime…
So then do we start looking askance at someone who thinks his then-15-yr-old girlfriend was a hottie? Slow news time in the MSM
Now back to TB guy…. and why could we have all his publicity about this 31-yr-old personal injury lawyer from Fulton County Georgia and yet we can’t see American coffins coming home from war because it’s “private”?
mui @ 71
The image came from The Memory Hole:
http://www.thememoryhole.org/w…..tos/dover/
I ordered the cards from VistaPrint:
http://www.vistaprint.com/vp/n…..k=Postcard
I’m off to the post office at lunch to buy stamps.
Gnome de Plume @ 80
I’m startin’ to feel like a groupie, too. Yah!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 52
what I wanna know is, why isn’t he dead yet? What is he, about 106?
LS – I think you are quite right about not underestimating Bush’s control. And I’d highly recommend that folks read One Percent Doctrine by Susskind … his book on ONeil was proven prescient, this latest is chilling. It shows Bush very specifically approving … and getting off on … torture and the other crimes of this administration.
oddmommy @ 88
84 I think I saw the other day…
A fish rots from the head down. So does a chimp.
-GSD
Swordswoman @ 74
uh…you guys…..we’re talking about a fictional character here, right?
:)
Naw, I love Doonesbury, AND Lacey. RIP.
oddmommy @ 88
he’s in the mid-70s, iirc…74?
he’s another one for whom the portrait mouldering in the seclusion of an attic clearly is NOT enough to absorb all the evil he’s done, cuz he wears it on himself like a shroud…
.
Brisingamen @ 86
That’s brilliant.
now that gore’s speech is over, i can go back to thinking about christy’s excellent post.
this is sorta how i feel about comey and his complicity in the padilla and arar cases.
Mandrake @ 59
What I liked most is that when Tony Snow zinged him, Gore zinged right back. No backing down like Carter. And, correct me if I’m wrong, there have been no more comments from Snow. Hmmm maybe there’s a lesson there.
i was wrong by a decade…
heinrich der KKK was born in ‘23
.
Michael in Park Slope @ 38
Yes.
It’s important to remember that Zelikow’s exposure to “lawyers” has been to those in the Justice Department (Yoo), White House (Gonzales)and OVP (Libby, Addington)and many others in the Administration who had no qualms about sanctioning torture. And many are still there or in positions of influence. I read his speech as an attack on these individuals — but he had to obscure what he’s saying if he wanted to stay in the administration. So he framed it as a problem with relying on lawyers/legal analaysis generally.
Siun @ 89
Example – his comment to the woman later executed when she asked for clemency (I forgot her name just now). Also, he executed more people than anyone else in the U.S. I believe. He is no angel, and the sooner everybody realizes this the better. I used to fall for the aw shucks bullcrapola too, thinking Cheney was the one in control, but for some reason lately, I can see straight through him.
dakine01 @ 84
It certainly would be difficult to find fault with the biblical examples which you cite. But doesn’t every organized religion claim to champion those very principles? And I find it unnecessary to appeal to organized religion for morality. Many of the great philosphers have written much on this to enlighten all.
Plato and Aristotle would have cited God as the source of an objective morality. But their very concept of “God” comes without the unneeded baggage which attaches (almost of a necessity) to organized religion.
_MS
Here is a link to the Auth cartoon I mentioned.
oddmommy @ 88
The Herr Doktor Mad Bomber Kissinger avoids travel in many countries. I think Belgium is one of those.
egregious — you there?
I pulled each of the comments you’d transcribed and edited into one document, with a few minor tweaks for typos and readability.
It’s posted at my blog, wish I could think of a way to upload as a text file.
BTW, anybody got a link to that Gore speech that can be replayed? Only caught the very end; the applause from the audience gave me goosebumps, so thunderous.
mui @ 94
[Blush] Thank you!
Gore quoted from one of my favorite authors, M Scott Peck: Evil is the absence of truth.
I imagine a split screen of Gore/Bush each giving a talk & I want to scream. We ended up with a 2 year old spoiled brat.
Gore gets it.
1,532 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Hardin Smith and the Firepup Patriots:
Thanx for the post this mornin’ that encourages us to follow the bright light of reason to the truth of our corruption and the brotherhood of complicity that is shared far beyond the borders of the Republican Party or the iron gates of the corporate community. Indeed, there are many “Democrats” and self-proclaimed open minded “liberals” who have not only sold out to irrationality but have profited immensely from the sale (are you listening Bob Schrum?). No, we need to return to the great idea of representative democracy guided by reason and passion informed by thought.
Now, we can not have a return to “reason” in our political and social decision making because reason has never driven our system since it’s inception, But we can certainly demand that the pursuit of “a more perfect union” and “happiness” in social experience be central to our politics. The idea of democracy and it’s power to motivate our social-political actions depends on freedom of thought and the public space to apply reason to circumstance. In this same way, the idea of a justice system that is blind to wealth and power still exists but the legal system we have built over 200 years has nothing at all to do with the idea of justice.
So, Firepups, go get a tape of Al Gore’s speech on Tuesday (it’s bein’ replayed today on C-Span) and then commit yourselves to gettin this guy elected president. The insane nightmare we have been living for a long time will not be over until reason motivates our understanding and until we accept that we are gunna hafta fight to save a future for our children.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION ALL THEY GOT IS YOUR MONEY!!
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 97
damn. he could be around for a while.
ya know, it just seems REASONABLE that he be dead. Like Nixon.
Karla Faye Tucker was the woman that Bush mocked after her death.
I am sure that Al Gonzales put together a nice crayon drawn report for Bush to review for 5 minutes while eating a baloney sandwich before signing off on her death.
-GSD
I think Gore is already running, based on the structure of the speech. He’s just a bunch smarter than anyone else. Run Al Run!!
Gnome de Plume @ 101
i love it!
oddmommy @ 108
He might be dead. How would we ever know? I thought he was ancient back in the ’70s when I was just pup. I am an older dog now and he still looks the same. Methinks there is a portrait somewhere aging in an attic.
GSD @ 109
selise @ 111
Me too!!!
-MS
mui @ 42
I hear that he already is very careful in how he travels internationally. There are a couple of Asian countries that would love to get their hands on him.
Some wonderful links in this thread- scooped every one of ‘em up.
Off to work now.
Again, thanks to all :)
some of my favorite Lacey recollections:
when she resigned from Congress during some scandal because she felt “responsible” for the others’ wrongdoing;
when she was ill with cancer and her friend brought her a j**nt and she asked, “Which end do I snort?”
when she was greeted by her husband in heaven…..
Trudeau’s a genius, imo.
Gnome de Plume @ 101
EXACTLY!
LS @ 99
how ’bout considering the idea of shared responsibility? gang mentality? i see them ALL as equally guilty. they enable eachother.
that’s why i want at least the 3 at the “top” impeached. they all KNOWINGLY are as guilty as H%$#! it should be immaterial that their term is [hopefully] almost over! their GUILT should be dealt with, or it will serve as basis for tolerating equal guilt in future leaders – yes?
NO!!! IMPEACH!
Brisingamen @ 68
i’m gonna replicate your tactic, here…
fuukin BRILLIANT!~!!
ok, THAT got me spewing liquid on my keyboard…. :)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 45
I can’ get over this article. I am so sad for the troops. I can’t believe that lying pr*ck went to Iraq to shop, shill, lie to the troops, and get some photo ops and meanwhile these guys are afraid of being blown up.
The “Faux Republicans” in this Administration are 99% scum of the earth, bottom-of-the-barrel. I’m sorry to be so blunt to my fellow citizens, but anyone who still supports the pReznit is a brainless follower of authoritarianism. And needs immediate trephination to verify the presence of gray matter. It’s called the “Schiavo Test.” Remember that? Hope this advice helps.
Gore should run; despite all the good points of the existing Democratic field and there are many (except for the DLC tools), Gore would be elected in a landslide. Now THAT would be some “political capital” to be spent for the good of all, not just the super-rich and the nutsos. Please President Gore, run again!!
————————————————————————
‘PupMap (632 people!), Chat, Calendar, Timeline (Click here or on my .SIG above)
Adie 118. Yup. I totally agree. ALL of them.
new thread
BREAKING:
per jane and marcy’s
great letter-writing efforts,
of yesterday. . .
libby letters set free!
immediately after sentencing!
i’ll have an image of the order in
mere moments, there — but as soon “as
practicable on, or after june 5, 2007,”
the libby-letters — with such redactions
as are ordered by judge walton, will be public. . .
“so ordered, may 31, 2007.”
Helpless Dancer @ 114
I’ve been thinking about the Hague a lot lately. Back when my dad did NATO work in the ’60’s he visited there quite a bit and liked it. Perhaps Dick and George should look into a vacation there around say, January 21, 2009. I hear the tulips are very nice that time of year. *g*
Rayne @ 103
don’t see gore’s speech in the c-span archives – am hoping it will be added.
p.s. not sure what you are looking for – but if you want, i can ftp your text file onto my site and give you the url. (i’m really just using the website as a repository of useful stuff right now anyway – happy to be of help to any firepups)
Re: Al Gore
i dunno how to interpret his flat-out denial, recently, in an interview i heard–prob’ly on NPR–that he would become a candidate.
he flatly rejected the notion…
/
First, I agree with your position that theism and morality are often disconnected. Many of the people at FDL and TNH who I respect the most for their ethical insights and wisdom are very strongly avowed atheists and agnostics.
AFAIK, both Plato and Aristotle lived in a Greek society which was essentially polytheistic.
I pretty much agree with this. Augustine and many others appropriated Plato to give Xtianity a Greekness that was completely foreign to it, prior to the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in 70 and 125 ce.
Thomas Aquinas “baptized” Aristotle. His reinterpretation of Xtianity his directly a result of his understanding of Aristotle.
Fresh thread, up for the reading on the Lieberman “shopping excursion.” Mui, do click through on the YouTube link in it — it will give you a much needed chuckle.
nolo @ 125
Great news as long as they don’t redact who the letters are from…
Gnome de Plume @ 126
Oh yes, the tulips are world famous. It’s a suprise that so many would want to avoid them.
oddmommy @ 120
My first spew! Yay! Now I can get on with my day.
oddmommy @ 92
I had to go look it up. Lacey was first “elected” in ‘76. Joanie had been campaign manager for one of Lacey’s competitors who dropped out and endorsed Lacey to take down the incumbent crook. Joanie went to “work” for Lacey as a staff counsel on the Ethics committee after her “graduation”. (I have a LOT of Doonesbury books on my shelves).
LS @ 123
LS Thankyou for responding. Sometimes, i feel as if i’m shouting down a hole & no one hears.
*blush*
GSD @ 109
Not quite, GSD, and worse; Bush mocked her BEFORE her death, during his “sober, gubernatorial consideration” of her plea for commutation of the death sentence, IIRC, saying “Please don’t kill me!” in a high squeaky voice to belittle the life of this convicted murderer who had nevertheless made a convincing religious conversion. An asocial psychopath, and I’m not talking about the Late Ms. Tucker.
————————————————————————
‘PupMap (632 people!), Chat, Calendar, Timeline (Click here or on my .SIG above)
John Casper @ 129 said:
“AFAIK, both Plato and Aristotle lived in a Greek society which was essentially polytheistic.”
True – but Plato’s use of the Greek Gods and Godesses in his many dialogues was an enormous “inside” joke. His philosophy exposes his as an extreme monotheist.
-MS
LS @ 131
Congrats and DEEP THANKS
{{{Jane}}} and {{{Marcy}}}!!!
guarded optimism kicks into gear at our house….
you want to know what’s really disgusting with these people that advocate torture?
we get less information not more, what little information we do get is not nearly as reliablble
and the administration knew just that before they initiated their policy of torture
that’s what’s disgusting
what’s also disgusting is the fact that embracing policies that include torture harm OUR soldiers…and again, at the price of LESS information
Michael in Park Slope @ 137
My sense is that you know a lot more about Plato’s writings than I do.
FWIW, Luther was a monotheist counter to the unadmitted polytheism that he found in the 16th century Christianism. “God Jr.” was Jesus and Mary was alternatively the Mother of God or Mrs. God. Throw in intercessory prayer to the angels, and saints, to petition the higher gods and you have full grown polytheism, but no one would admit to it.
Bush is behind everything – not as an ‘intellectual partner’ or ‘concensus builder,’ but as the one ‘whose say goes,’ to use the Gooper parlance.
Bush is The Decider – for everything. And, if you are on the receiving end of his grace, then your job is to grovel – hard – and not remember any facts that would implicate him. It’s not an optional ‘loyalty for favor’ model, but rather an enforced ’sell your soul, loyalty for favor’ model.
A ‘hard case’ is someone who bestows favor based on the receiver’s shameful self-humiliation. The minions stay ‘broke down’ – never speaking ill of the abuser – and the ‘enemy’ are those that resist domination.
That’s what’s behind the Smirk. It’s not about intellect, concensus or equality – it’s about Authoritarian Power. ‘Decider’ isn’t even the right term – it’s more like he’s Telling us how it’s going to be, because his say goes…
The only real choices in Hard-Case-BushWorld are to be a slavering minion or an ‘enemy.’
LS @ 110
yup … hope so … this looks like a smart, stealth (or not so stealth) run. No reason to announce till it’s time to get on the primary ballots and caucus lists. Anyone know what the real deadlines are there?
perris @ 139
let me add to that;
when we ignore treaties formeer admministration enter that makes it impossible to broker future treaties, we are no longer an honest broker and any contract we enter can and will be ignored siting the precedent set by ignoring treaties like geneva
if a country cannot enter a treaty in good faith, if other countries can then enter treaties and use as precedence our failure to conform, obviously our national security pays the price
this was known too, long before they decided to ignore the geneva treaty
that’s another thing the democrats have to start doing;
stop calling it “the geneva convention” and start calling it a treaty presidents gauranteed would be followed which this president has no bussiness voiding, he has no authority and no standing to void a contract former congress and administrations brokered in good faith
Michael in Park Slope, are you familiar with Jesus’ General? He is an atheist and attracts some of the most virulent anti-religious (among other things) satire that I have read. I count myself as a “believer,” but most mainline Xtian denominations would denounce me as an Arian heretic. FWIW, I really enjoy Jesus’ General.
Does Dick Cheney claim to be a Christian? What about Abu and Condi?
John Casper @ 140
I am intrigued by your view of 16th century Christianity. I’ve never heard this before. And I was raised as a Lutheran (go figure! – but that’s behind me now).
-MS
About the world Bank(International Bank for Reconstruction and Development)
Interesting that two men, one the architect of the Vietnam war, McNamara, the other an architect of the mess in Iraq, Wolf, both went on to be president of The World Bank. Sounds like the right hand bombs, or tears down, while the left hand builds up.
Only, McNarma came out, after his stint at the WB, and said of the Vietnam war, “We were wrong, terribly wrong. We owe it to future generations to explain why”
John Casper @ 144
Yes, I’ve seen some of this and, obviously, it’s right up my alley.
-MS
Michael in Park Slope @ 146
sad to say, Christianity is a poly theist religion no matter Christians want to claim otherwise
“the father the son and the holy ghost”
these are three deity’s, theologians will claim they are all one and the same, yet Christ prayed to the father;
“forgive them father they know not what they do”
and those that pray to the virgin Mary, and the saint of good hope or the saint of this and that
all poligamy
I was raised Roman Catholic and studied to be a priest. If you want to see what Luther was up against, visit a non-Roman Catholic Church aka “eastern-rite” aka Ukranian Catholic, Russian Orthodox…. Luther was the Western Schism. The Eastern Schism @1378 – 1417 was between the Bishop of Rome and the eastern Patriarchs who have always rejected the bishop of Rome’s authority. On this issue they agreed completely with Luther. Liturgically, however, they completely rejected Luther’s sola scriptura and the icons aka false idols that were so central to Xtianity before Luther. Once you see those non-Roman Catholic churches, imvho it’s easier to see how much Luther, Calvin and others impacted Roman Catholicism theologically and liturgically. FWIW, non-Roman Catholics agree with Luther wrt celibacy which is optional, not required. AFAIK, they still hold onto a male only priesthood. The last two RC popes (assh*les) have been much more interested in ecumenism with the Eastern rite than with the reformers aka Protestants.
perris @ 149
hehe…wrong choice of words
perris @ 151
Or… Not???
-MS
John Casper @ 150
Thanks for the info. BTW, I’ve never heard the Eastern Orthodox (Russian, Greek etc.) referred to as a Catholic church; is this in fact so?
-MS
Eastern Catholic Churches
John Paul II allowed a Roman Catholic to fulfill their weekly liturgical obligation at an Eastern Rite liturgy (Ratzinger, Benny 16 agrees completely). It means that Rome recognizes that validity of the ordination of Eastern-Rite priests.
Rome’s canon law also respects validity of Baptism as administered by “reformed” Protestant ministers. It requires fewer dispensations for a Roman Catholic to marry a baptized Xtian than someone who was never baptized.
Uniate Churches is another term, and I’m sure I don’t understand all the ramifications. What unifies all Xtians is that they believe that Jesus reveals God. The earliest group was referrred to as “followers of the Nazarean,” and they were exclusively good pious Jews who continued to attend Temple. For reasons we don’t fully understand that relationship became strained, probably as a result of increasing friction with the Romans, especially Nero, iirc. After the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 and 125 ce, all that remained of Xtianity was a Greek version, which was Paul’s interpretation. Paul is really nearly the stature of Jesus and he gets an unfair rep imvho as a misogynist. For his day and judged against his peers, he was a radical feminist and a really terrific theologican. Xtianity endured many heresies as it evolved, but the two largest schisms are the Eastern and then the Western (Luther).
Roman Catholics, especially the popes, tend to forget that they are Xtians before they are Roman Catholics.
I know Roman Catholics refer to them as “Catholic.” Whether they do it as much, I don’t know. IIRC, their liturgy is about three hours long, lots of singing, lots of incense. It’s the complete opposite of “sola scriptura.”
Deep EPU but
Welcome to that newfangled word I like to call “complicity.”
I just don’t understand the rationale for who comes under fire and who gets the free pass.
Someone like Comey was much more actively and directly involved (Padilla, Higazy, Arar) in complicity to allow or coverup torture and has yet to call a spade a spade on what has been done; Goldmith even has his name on the draft memo to ditch Article 49 protections and worked hand in glove with Haynes – etc.
But they get halos and Zelikow gets rocks thrown?
For my part – yeah, I do blame the lawyers. I blame others too, but legal cover and the unbroken line of Prosecutors who said: don’t worry- we won’t prosecute you for disappearing people and abusing them under Presidential orders – those were SOLICITATIONS to bad behavior.
Hi Mary, a little off your topic but fwiw:
ACLU files suit against Boeing subsidiary, saying it enabled secret overseas torture
I’m very confident that more than a few people at Boeing, Halliburton, and other mainstays of the military industrial complex have considered the numerous ways in which CIA “renditions” could be turned into “competitive advantage.”
radiofreewill @ 25
Gnome de Plume @ 73
Sandbox with lots of oil underneath!
Mary @ 156
thank you mary!
i tried to bring this up earlier in the thread (although not so well as you), see my 95. no free pass from me (heck, i think i’m complict for paying my taxes).
mui @ 51
Berkeley – and it shames the UC and Boalt.
snowbird42 @ 39
Good read.
Explains how the Pub’s are exploiting the Dem’s SOCALLED strategy to make the Pub’s OWN the war. Blowback big time it appears, the dem’s are being OWNED and PLAYED in SUCH a pathetic manner.
Shoulda gone for the jugular, day one.
Now, it’s all over. Unitary Executive will come to play a few weeks or a month or two before the elections, the dem’s WILL look like they were surrender monkey’s in ‘07, and when elections ARE held, the Pub’s will cakewalk in.
Man, Nova Scotia sure is lookin good.
radiofreewill @ 43
Fer cryin out loud, the World Bank loans money to countries who can’t pay back and assumes control of that country.
The Power Elite run and rule the world.
And the Bushies and American Politicians and their family’s are all a part of it.
All this noise of ethics and morals that SHOULD be is becoming pathetic to read.
It’s a nasty, ugly dirty and evil phreakin world out there, in YOUR lives, and you want to scold the guy with the gun to yer head about being nice.
We deserve whatever we get, given this level of roll over and play dead we have assumed.
Nova Scotia.