Two weeks ago, several Republican Presidential candidates competed to tell their cheering supporters how much they wanted to play Jack Bauer. Last Saturday, the model for such insanity, Dick Cheney, assured West Point graduates that the quaint rules in the Geneva Conventions and U.S. Constitution against mistreating prisoners were only for hypocritical terrorist girlie men.
Cheney and the candidates received wild ovations, but none has been asked what their statements might mean for the US soldiers still being held captive, or the five Britons seized yesterday, possibly by Iraqi police loyal to Shi’ite militia. Who among these I-had-other-priorities tough guys has the credibility to ask that these captives be treated humanely?
My guess is that Mr. Cheney and the wannabe Presidents in the Republican party will be more upset when they read about the “interrogation experts” working for the Intelligence Science Board, the group responsible for recommending interrogation techniques to the US military and CIA. It seems these experts think torture is just, well, old fashioned and unprofessional and should be replaced by techniques learned from, among other things, selling toothpaste.
As the Bush administration completes secret new rules governing interrogations, a group of experts advising the intelligence agencies argue that the harsh techniques used since the 2001 terrorist attacks are outmoded, amateurish and unreliable.
The psychologists and other specialists, commissioned by the Intelligence Science Board, make the case that more than five years after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, the Bush administration has yet to create an elite corps of interrogators trained to glean secrets from terror suspects.
While billions are spent each year to upgrade satellites and other high-tech spy machinery, the experts say, interrogation methods — possibly the most important source of information on groups like Al Qaeda — are a hodgepodge that date from the 1950s, or are modeled on old Soviet practices.
While the experts may or may not feel squeamish about torture, it appears their concerns are more practical:
There is little evidence, they say, that harsh methods produce the best intelligence. “There’s an assumption that often passes for common sense that the more pain imposed on someone, the more likely they are to comply,” . . . [but] some of the experts involved in the interrogation review, called “Educing Information,” say that during World War II, German and Japanese prisoners were effectively questioned without coercion.
“It far outclassed what we’ve done,” said Steven M. Kleinman, a former Air Force interrogator and trainer, who has studied the World War II program of interrogating Germans. The questioners at Fort Hunt, Va., “had graduate degrees in law and philosophy, spoke the language flawlessly,” and prepared for four to six hours for each hour of questioning, said Mr. Kleinman, who wrote two chapters for the December report.
Mr. Kleinman, who worked as an interrogator in Iraq in 2003, called the post-Sept. 11 efforts “amateurish” by comparison to the World War II program, with inexperienced interrogators who worked through interpreters and had little familiarity with the prisoners’ culture.
“We have a whole social science literature on persuasion,” Mr. Borum said. “It’s mostly on how to get a person to buy a certain brand of toothpaste. But it certainly could be useful in improving interrogation.”
The Republican defenders of harsher techniques were assured by Yoo and Addington that if the President authorizes it when fighting terrorists, it is not a crime, allowing them to disregard statements from our top generals and mushy arguments from those like Philip D. Zelikow, the former adviser to Ms. Rice, who simply said the techniques were immoral. Zelikow called it “a grave mistake to delegate to [such] attorneys decisions on the moral question of how prisoners should be treated.”
One of the lawyers Zelikow no doubt had in mind was one Scooter Libby. Ironically, it is Mr. Libby and his secret friends who now argue it would be immoral if they were exposed and he were punished for outing a “covert agent” and covering it up by lying to the FBI and a federal Grand Jury. The mere threat that forcing Libby to watch Crest commercials from behind bars might “educe” him to tell us what he knows about others’ complicity in betraying our intelligence community and lying the country into war is enough to awaken even their “delicate sensitivities” to those quaint little rules. But I suspect this crowd doesn’t fully appreciate the connection.
Abu Ghraib photo credit from antiwar.com



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R O O T Z !!!
Scarecrow!
Good morning Scarecrow.
So not only is torture immoral, it doesn’t work.
Our policy is wrong and ineffective. Way to go!
Good morning gang.
I suppose y’all have heard that the term “enhanced interrogation” was coined by the Nazis.
Good Morning Scarecrow and Firedogs,
Tommy Yum – You Are Correct !!!
Andrew Sullivan
Good Morning Scarecrow.
Wonderful post.
We WILL get our country back.
Thank you for all you’re doing to show us the way.
These horrible policies of the current administration need to be dragged out into the sunshine. They’ve festered in secret long enough.
Every office holder and candidate for office must be made to deal with these issues publically.
And I suspect a bunch of folks should join Irving Libby in jail for trashing our Constitution.
Is it okay to hate these people with impunity, now?
I am really angry, steam out of the ears angry, this morning about what Republicans and their enablers have done to my country so I have to come here to vent.
I don’t recognize my country anymore. When I look around, all I see is ugliness, cruelty, deprivation, intolerance, rudeness, selfishness, inhumanity, and intellectual sloth. My god, earthworms have more intellectual curiousity and empathy than these people. They are a scourge upon this land. They are the cancer of a country.
Their deeds will be visited upon their offspring. I don’t say this out of a sense of vengeance, but only as a statement of a natural progession of events culminating from what they have done to our economy, our environment and our standing in the world. And they are apparently are hell-bent on continuing along the same path without conscience, Bush automatons. Sightless. Deaf but not dumb.
It is amazing to me that the “party of family” can be so selfish that they do not even think about how what they have done and are still trying to do will impact the lives of their children and grandchildren. They believe hoards of money can solve any problem.
I’m sorry for the rant. I am very upset this a.m.
Scarecrow!
Of course, why should speaking the language be meaningful? Otherwise the DoD wouldn’t have kicked 58 Arabic linguists out for that heinous crime of being teh GAY! Teh SHAME! Teh HORROR! Teh STUPIDITY!
Science is slowly revealing that those who identify themselves as Republicans (conservatives) are suffering from pathological mental disorders. Out of deep seated fears phobias and a lack of compassion (a sign of weakness in their psychology) they rationalize the use of torture because at heart many are sadists that find a catharsis from their own inner demons in the suffering of others.
Exposing an undercover NOC is a terrorist act. Expose Libby to ‘waterboarding’ and he will tell you what you need to know. He amd those involved are as dangerous as a combatant in destroying a program to track and define WMD proliferation. I am not a fan of Zelikow, but in this instance he couldn’t be more correct. THESE CRETINS MUST BE BROUGHT TO ACCOUNTABILITY. It’s a pity we have such ignorant a$$holes in charge. We get the government we vote in. Or is selected. Or is able to steal it.
It looks like Turkey also is now fed up with being effed about, conned and lied to by this maladministartion.
*UPDATE* – Turkish Tanks Trundle Toward Iraq Border …
When (and where) will all this madness end? What do they want? The whole world at war?
Good Morrow, scarecrow, assorted dogs and pups (if i may so familiar)…
there are at LEAST 5 USers held captive by Iraqi nationalists/insurgents.
i suspect they’ve come to the conclusion that the Geneva Conventions aren’t “quaint” or “trivial.” The kid from California they found floating face down in the Euphrates the other day might have had something to say about it, too.
Good morning everyone.
cbl @ 5
Marty Lederman also picks up on this story over at Balkanization.
Mandrake!
“sorry for the rant”?
Oh PLEASE NO! Do.NOT.Stop.
I think one of the problems with our country now is that MORE people should be publically ranting and raving, instead of shaking privately in silent rage.
Thank you!
dakine01 @ 8
Yep — CNN picked up that story last night and the reporters were just shaking their heads at the stupidy of it all, never mind the mindless discrimination.
CBC has a new sitcom called “Little Mosque on the Prairie”. It’s set in Mercy, Saskatchewan where a small Muslim community has settled among Prostestants. I can’t even imagine seeing a similar sitcom on american tv. The fundies would raise holy hell.
Torture, schmorture. It’s time for a new round of tax cuts.
The crimes of this Administration have as yet to be seen as crimes by many in the nation because the MSM treats them with the meme that “both sides do this”. Until it becomes crystal clear that was has been happening is not just “politics as usual” will there be any accountability for the criminals and their enablers of this regime.
Scarecrow @ 15
They really are slow aren’t they? I think I first saw this about two months ago! I wonder what caused the (probably brief) moment of clarity?
Bluetoe @ 9
So can we teach empathy? There have been several stories — and a fine post by Ian Welsh here, that bemoaned the inability to put ourselves in others’ shoes.
Scarecrow @ 13
That’s Marty Lederman. Are you trying to smear the poor guy?
Bluetoe @ 9
Yes, and these are the sick f**ks that have been running this country and this war. We all know that if they continue to have their way, the Middle East will explode like an H-bomb of violence and destruction surpassing what we have seen thus far. What other options do we have than impeachment??
‘Morning, FirePups.
Listening to The Today Show (good God, when am I going to learn) this morning, struck by a couple of things.
– Coverage on the Super-TB story was erroneous, claiming this was the first time quarantine has been invoked in X number of years, which we know it isn’t;
– Coverage of Romney as “CEO presidential candidate” may suggest a new theme being pushed.
If ineffective “enhanced interrogation” was the product of the first “CEO president”, do the American people really need another idiot who won’t listen to marketing professionals and use what really works?
Yeesh.
When the republicans started talking about ‘human intelligence’ a few years ago, everybody thought they were talking about recruiting spies and defectors. They were really talking about kidnapping humans and torturing them. Torture is the fake orgasm of intelligence.
?
Sure, our?various old and new pals in the brutal dictators’ league all tortured, but we don’t seem to understand why they did it. Torture isn’t to get answers, it’s an act of terrorism against the population from which the victim was taken (terror, not necessarily?deterrence as the Bush brothers’ gubernatorial execution sprees long ago proved.)
If you want to be an occupying power, then maybe you want the terror just because you are so god damned sick of the country you are occupying?that it feels good to hurt them some more…
allan_in_upstate @ 21
Oops. Sorry, just a typo — thanks for catching that.
The hypocracy of our torture policy becomes clear when Americans or Westerners are tortured in Iraq. The torturers are held up as barbarians, and used as one of the reasons we are there, fighting these barbarians and imposing Democratic law on them.
I have to say that the argument that torture is morally wrong seems to have zero effect on people who would turn a blind eye to torture in exchange for a little bit more safety. I think the fact that it is ineffective is much more compelling to them, and they can’t rationalize it. We have to stop letting them get away with the “24″ argument, that someone might hold vital, threatening information and the clock is ticking. This is a preposterous scenario, but it’s one that they use to great effect in their promotion of torture.
Why stop at Jack Bauer? We need the Silver Surfer or Superman. We won’t convince the wingers that torture is immoral, corrodes democracy, is counterproductive, etc… Simply put, the thought of “enhanced interrogation” gives them woodies. And it offers a fantasy of safety to the non-wingers they drag along. We have to mock them, pointing to their anxious, impaired masculinity, until the non-wingers realize they’re being offered a cartoon-hero version of security.
It’s also the 2-Year anniversary today of Cheney saying the Insurgency was in its LAST THROES.
We’d been in Iraq for 2 years at that time…2 years later the insurgency is stronger than ever.
http://www.americablog.com/200…..ad_30.html
Rayne @ 23
C’mon Rayne! Since has reality on the ground had any impact with the talking heads/news spinners of the corporate owned media? It just messes up a good meme is all…
Adie @ 14
Thanks, Adie! I could definitely go on but I don’t want to flood everyone with morbidity!
Maybe netroots could organize National Primal Scream Day, such screaming to commence at a particular hour and to last at least 5 minutes. Considering how hard we have tried to make a difference and how little response we have received from the government, it could be most therapeutic.
Americans by and large are incapable of putting themselves in other’s shoes. There is no living memory of having the country overrun by an occupying force. The nation has not suffered the devastation that Europe and many parts of Asia experienced during WWII. Because of a false belief in American exceptionalism and the shallow and vapid nature of much of the mass culture large numbers of Americans, especially Republicans are incapable of empathy.
deadeye was photographed grimacing at his graduation appearance last week, in a new variation of his ’snarlyface’.
dare i hope it was “pain”?
does he feel at all?
i think we need to “ramp up” the pressure on all our Congresscritters, among others.
http://www.woodtv.com/Global/s…..p;nav=0Rcd
Attaturk @ 28
I always thought it was interesting that Cheney chose this wording, as though he enjoyed the image:
Rayne @ 23
Hooboy. Don’t think that “CEO President” thang will go over too well. But go for it, Mitt. Go all out.
the torture of alegerians during the 1960s haunts france to this day, and now we will inherit all that baggage. and just as the practices of the french government in algeria became an ominous narrative reflection of practices to which that government would later subject its people, the practices we deplore in iraq will be incorporated into our daily lives. and in many ways, they already have been installed in our daily lives. the historical and social sediment our illegal practices in iraq has generated will remain for decades if not a whole century. and unfortunately, the damage is already done.
http://andrewsullivan.theatlan…..verne.html
This is a link to the originators of the term “enhanced interrogation”. Hint..Gestapo 1937
lilybelle @ 27
a_i_u’s Law of Wingnut Heroism: The number of fictional characters invoked by a member of the 101st Fighting Keyboarders to display manly resolve is proportional to the square of the the sum of the number of chins and the number of deferments.
again, this type of information was told to this administration LONG before they decided they wanted to torture people anyway
“unprofrofessional and amatuer” is putting it lightly
to be clear, LESS information is gathered through torture, that’s right, LESS
and the term “unreliable” is too mild as well, the term should be;
“squanders our resources when we could be using those resources gathering accurate information”
people die BECAUSE of torture, assets are assigned tasks based on information that was coeerced from a person that would do and say anything to end the torture for 5 miunutes
this policy of allowing these “techniques” is depraved and it goes straight to the root of this administration
everything they do seems to come from the play book of Hitler…take a look at “the patriot” act, it’s clearly a re do of hitler’s “enabling act”…it’s got so many similaritys if Hitler were alive he could initiate a law suit for plaguerism {why the HELL isn’t the media on THAT by the way}
they use the same techniques as Hitler used to sway the masses too, wave the flag and claim anyone that points out their depravity is a traitor when it’s THEY who commit treason
ignore the law, make bizzarre claims that they are above it
NOW GET THIS BECAUSE THIS IS AN IMPORTANT CONNECTION THAT HAS YET TO BE MADE WHICH JUST CAME TO ME IN ANOTHER OF MY EPIHHAMES;
one of hitlers most famous principles is the notion that he is NOT obligated by the treaties he or germany were signators, that a treaty can be ripped up from the paper it is written
that’s the very principles of this administration too…cheney the other day said something to the effect about the geneva convention, AS IF we are NOT obligated by the treaties previous congress’s and president’s have GUARANTEED with the full integrity of the United States of Amnerica we would abide
in THIS country, a treaty CANNOT be “rewritten” or “re interperated” or “redefined” or ignored unilaterally by a president
the ONLY people that can “re define” a treaty are the signators IN AGREEMENT”, otherwise, CONGRESS declares the treaty no longer in effect
THE PRESIDENT CANNOT UNILATERALLY VOID CONTRACTS OUR INTEGRITY RELIES
and this principle MUST be pointed out by democrats, and they MUSTG
GeorgeSimian @ 26
Well, as the NYT article pointed out, torture is just not an effective means of getting information so how do these sh*t-for-brainers get the idea that it make us safer?
yellowdogD @ 36
I see scarecrow beat me to it @13..sorry for the repitition.
Just a reminder: Firedoglake will be having a live blog with Senator Chris Dodd later today. Jane has set up a special thread where you can post questions in advance.
Senator Dodd question thread
pointecoupeedemocrat @ 35
What will this do to our future? Like the Germans, we will have to somehow come to grips with what we did and what we did not stop. I think I must work harder and smarter on fixing this now so I can live with myself in my old(er) age.
Rayne @ 23
Oh, apparently, Rudy has a new tactic, too. According to what I heard on Air America news, he’s going to start being less nasty and more “fatherly.” —heave! blergh!—
sorry, hit enter and can’t edit right now
I wsa saying democrats MUST use the language that this president’s base understands…things like;
“if the president DARES deminish the integrity of this nation by PRESUMING he can void agreements entered by previous president’s he is damaging our ability to broker future treaties, damaged our reputation and ability to defend ourselves and our alies, it is depraved”
things like that, in those types of words, we need to forgo the “legalize” instead replace that type of disucussion with the repercussions from what this president has done
Scarecrow @ 33
kinda like Bremer’s “Once conventional wisdom congeals…” -NY Times 18 May 2007
Adie @ 32
heart trouble, mayhap?
Mandrake @ 39
Because the President and Vice President of the US says that it does, and these shit for brainers have trouble believing that they would lie or do anything stupid. They would prefer to think that Bush/Cheney know something that we don’t – which I guess is a nice little side-effect of them making everything they do Classified.
allan_in_upstate @ 37
Perhaps it’s time to ban Cheetos
yellowdogD @ 40
Actually, I just gave the Lederman link, though his article contains the link to Sullivan. Thanks for the direct link.
Mandrake @ 30
I strongly suspect that’s why Cindy Sheehan publically called off her protest.
- so little response…
- change is coming, but so-o-o slowly, it’s absolutely excruciatingly painful, and discouraging…
The cool waters of the Lake help.
Here, positive things are being done, not just empty talk.
Because of folks here, it’s much harder for the shooters&jrs to hide their dirty deeds, and for congresscritters & MSM to hide their sloppy, self-serving, blase attitude. ;->
The Mod is taking a dim view of people wishing that the Vice President would be in pain or have heart trouble.
our bluebirds are building a new nest today right outside our bedroom window. COOL!
I thought W and the boys wanted to get Saadam Hussein because he was so cruel and inhumane. Because he killed so many people. Ha! Guess they showed the world how it’s supposed to be done.
Why isn’t our new Congress putting a stop to this right now? Both the torture and the war? I cannot understand this.
does anyone have the quote where hitler said treaties had as little value as the paper they were written?
I need that for future discussion regarding cheney and bush’s claims that they are not obligated by the geneva convention
HotFlash @ 42
activists in france protested for the reasons i discuss, but the fallout from the practice of torture in a territory the french were occupying still remains in the country. and in fact, many of the social problems now beseiging france are arguably a direct result of france’s inability to offer a sincere and convincing apology for the practice of torture in algeria.
but we also have guantanomo. our credibility has been compromised when it comes to the humane treatment of others, and our laws are already becoming textual reflections of our practices abroad. similar to the french activists of the 1960s, we are aware of the problem, but the problem already has taken root. we can only discuss it, hoping we will stave the course of what unfortunately seems inevitable.
HotFlash @ 42
I don’t think that America will try to come to grips with this, any more than it has attempted to do so with what was done in Central and South America – to which this bears a strong family resemblance. Americans have an astonishing capacity for denial and amnesia – whatever does not fit with their mythology of who they are as a nation simply does not exist. It always makes me shake my head when people say they want their country back – sorry, this IS your country and has been for quite some time.
Please bear in mind, I am talking about the nation as a whole – not the well-developed consciences of a large group of individual Americans.
The Lurking Mod @ 51
I didn’t say “wish,” but it’s certainly reasonable to contemplate that a man in his condition might be having heart pains, hence the grimace. I have never said anything on here intimating that I wish anything would happen to Cheney or Bush other than they be impeached.
lead at think progress…aprapos for sure;
linkypoo
Mandrake at 39
Mandrake, I believe the logic looks like this:
Did I miss anything?
Fern @ 56
and fern, this is all the more cause for concern, for the repressed has a tendency to surface in ways we can never anticipate.
Mandrake @ 43
Oh that’s just lovely. The man has the fatherly instincts of a snake.
Bring it on, Rudy. Cannot wait for the snarkfest that will inevitably follow such hollow fakery substituted for human empathy.
Rayne @ 61
I’m waiting for the WWF debate between Rudy & Gingrich.
O/T but isn’t anything going on this week with Gonzo? And isn’t Condi due to testify today or tomorrow? Anyone got any testimony schedules that look interesting? And Libby sentence coming up too, right?
Elliott @ 62
Pass the mind bleach, please. Ugh, can you imagine it, these two POS dressed in tights, sweating like the pigs they are under hot lights, taking it to the mats? Repulsive before they even open their mouths. I actually think I’d have to root for Rudy to stuff his foot in G’rich’s mouth since the G’rich is responsible for so much of the last 13 years’ worth of damaging right-wing framing.
I think I’m going to lose my breakfast.
Rayne @ 61
air america has become another corporate outlet, they’ve replaces almost every progresive with a holes
there are just a handfull left that have a clue…they are actually broadcasting “sammy and army” two times a day
man, I sort of knew corporate america would buy air america if it became a political force, it did and they have
guaranteed, they will find a way to get rid of randi, hartman, rachel and whoever is “left”
allan_in_upstate @ 17
thanks for the first smile of my morning which was much needed
hooded warbler, catbird, scarlet tanager, bluejay, cardinal, grackle, chickadee, titmouse, white-breasted nuthatch, crow, red-bellied woodpecker, downy woodpecker, hairy woodpecker, house wren, carolina wren, cedar waxwing, robin, red-eyed vireo, yellow-throated vireo, rose-breasted grosbeak, chipping sparrow, song sparrow, house finch, goldfinch, indigo bunting, cooper’s hawk, barred owl, ruby-throated hummingbird & bluebird are all nesting in our yard and woods – this year…
*tiptoes back to share silk pillow with kitty & listen to the birds*
Oh, and Mr. Dodd. We desperately need you to do whatever you can for our country. Thank you for coming to the Lake. We will be listening. ;->
From the ThinkProgress link above, the NYT article on what Republicans are hearing from their constituents wrt Iraq.
HotFlash @ 59
That about covers it. Except you forgot to qualify the “them”: brown people who are always radical Muslim extremists by default.
I never liked advertising all that much– packaging design is much more fascinating– but I like it much better than ChimpCo’s brute methods of inducing false confessions from the Iraqi shoe salesman and the Afghan elderly rug dealer.
I come here every morning for my daily dose of outrage. I’m never dissapointed.
I’m outraged fatigued.
toperris @ 65
Wait, is Soros still in charge? What’s the deal with Air America?
Mandrake 57
ditto
amen
;->
Adie @ 67
LUCKY YOU! What a wonderful way to spend the morning. I love to visit my parents and look out their window to the backyard to watch the birdies and squirrelies (sometimes bunnies) that feed and drink there. But they certainly don’t have such a variety! I’m sure kitty is transfixed.
Thought you might enjoy this scarecrow…just in.
Lying, massive fraud, illegal weapons smuggling, forged documents . . . all sound like a description of the lead-up to the war in Iraq. However, this same situation existed in the late 1970s. Some of the same players who got this nation into the bloody quagmire of Iraq also criminally conspired to bring down the administration of President Jimmy Carter. President Carter’s indignation about the neo-cons — their blind support for Israel, their whittling away of our Constitution, our neo-con foreign policy — is rooted in the treason they committed against the United States during his administration. There is no statute of limitations on treason and the neo-cons should face double barrel treason charges from incidents a generation apart.
The neo-con attacks on President Carter were planned in the office of the late Democratic Senator from Washington, Henry “Scoop” Jackson. Jackson was the Joe Lieberman of his day — more concerned about representing the interests of a defense contractor, Boeing (Lieberman represents the interests of General Dynamics), and the expansionists and military-intelligence complex of Israel (as does Lieberman), than in doing what was best for America.
snip
How the Neocons Cut Their Teeth—Wayne Madsen
cathy @ 71
I don’t look for outrage; I actually look for good news. Perhaps I should look in different places. I could do another review of Happy Feet.
mui @ 72
Air America was purchased some time back by iirc, Stephen Green, rich realtor in NYC and brother of Mark Green, nominal progressive and failed mayoral candidate (lost to Bloomberg).
And speaking of the missing Americans and Brits:
Have I simply missed it or has the MSM wiped the slate clean on *that* coverage?
cathy @ 71
For some reason, I have not forgotten an article from “The Onion” I read a few years back about outrage fatigue over the endless transgressions of the Bush admin. I related to that term so well. Little did I know that, years down the road, I would still be suffering from this exhausting condition.
Scarecrow @ 68
When the mayor of Kenilworth, one of the most racially exclusive suburbs of Chicago, claims there is a problem, then there must be a problem. These are some of the most financially callous people who voted for Bush as a result of his fiscal policies. That they are ready to jettison him reveals that Kirk and many others may finally be deposited into the dustpin of political history.
GeorgeSimian @ 63
as far as i can tell, no senate hearings or house hearings were scheduled for this week. i guess because the congress is spending the week back home getting an earfull from their constituents.
next week on tuesday (june 5) the fun starts back up with the SJC.
In fact, the U.S.’s torture victims are live props in the Bush/Cheney theater of heroic masculinity — Lord-of-the-Flies stuff. And Fox celebrates it. And all but one of the Republican presidential candidates have bought into it.
The following is from a Molly Ivins piece from November 2005 http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1110-20.htm :
let me ask again cuz I’m having trouble finding it;
hitler said something to the effect “treaties are worth the paper they are written”
I can’t find the exact quote through google, does anyone have a source for me?
Also, looks like Joey Bag O’ Donuts is in Bagdad today…
A US embassy spokesman told NBC News that Sen. Joseph Lieberman (I) arrived in Baghdad Wednesday morning and has met with US Embassy officials and Iraqi officials. and
toperris @65: Good god, was listening to the Lionel Show this morning, thought I’d give it another chance (although I was furious about what they did to Sam Seder). Lionel kept saying that, right after 911, everybody in NY knew there was a connection b/w 911 and Hussein! And how the media just ignores this fact! He offered nothing to back up this claim.
WTF???? Repeat, WTF?????
Switched him off immediately. Not going back to that one. If I want my intelligence insulted, I’ll turn on CNN.
Scarecrow-
I didn’t mean that comment as an insult to you or anyone here. I come here to read the latest and what’s happening in this country is always outrage inducing. I want things to stop getting worse and start getting better right now. I’m just frustrated by it all.
And I know where to go to get happy news if I want it.
selise @ 81
Robert Greenwald and the folks at Brave New Films have the next impeach Gonzales video up.
cathy @ 86
Sorry, I wasn’t clear. I left off the ;) after my comment. I knew what you meant. And if you have a link to “happy” pass it around! ;)
I really think that if you want to make any progress in an argument against torture in this country, the FIRST response has to be that it doesn’t work and the SECOND response can be it is morally disgusting. Presently, these responses tend to be the other way around, and the population seems quite willing to allow the President to be morally disgusting as long as he’s protecting us – so you lose their interest by the time you get to the argument that it doesn’t work.
If you switch them, then incompetence comes first – and everyone knows that, if nothing else, Bush is incompetent.
ccmask @ 84
He’ll see cell phones and progress where there isn’t any. He’ll go on a rug buying excursion at the expense of American taxpayers and then say everything’s A O.K. and he “talked” with some “high ranking officials” who all support the Republicans abysmal failed plans.
Good morning Scarecrow!
“Cheney and the candidates received wild ovations” — that is what sends chills down my spine and migraines to my head…I am shocked, disappointed and outraged that humans can still feel this way about torture…I’m thinking it’s a good argument against evolution.
OT: Chney has his Shredder Truck parked in front of one of his houses again. From the AP:
“A lawyer for Vice President Dick Cheney told the Secret Service in September to eliminate data on who visited Cheney at his official residence, a newly disclosed letter states.”
AP Cheney Shredding story
GeorgeSimian @ 89
I personally find the historical parallels with France very compelling. And besides, I am not very pragmatic when it comes to policy. This is how I view the practice, and many a scholar has discussed this in various books on post-war France.
torture does work in one respect…
it can be quite successful in terrorizing the target population.
i think we need to address this one head on – explicitly and openly: do we really want to terrorize muslims? why? what does it achieve? is it wise?
once again, the answer is that our policy has been both immoral and stupid.
Well, this is sorta “good” news: The New York Times is going after Lou Dobbs for his pandering to bigotry.
selise @ 93
but it also terrorizes the population torturing the tortured population.
cathy @ 86
Ya’ see, I waiver from outrage to teensy particles of hope. If anyone has read some of my little babblings on here, they would see that I am not always a complete downer.
But I admit to bouts of depression and despair. That is a condition I will deal with the rest of my life. I do all I can to manage it, but with this country the way it is and the snail’s pace of progress towards a solution, I think many of us get frustrated enough to pull our hair out from time to time. And some of us don’t have anyone to talk to in our local community so we go to the blogs to vent b/c we are so full of despair that we have to get it out or implode emotionally, I guess.
Quite frankly, if I could afford a therapist, I would go, but my finances are really tight at the moment. So I guess FDL is just good therapy for some people, intelligent people, who want to hang with other intelligent, thoughtful people, who do not see the world in black and white, but beautiful shades of gray.
May I susugest having the Intelligence Science Board “interview” Mr. Gonzales & friends, then we can get him out of the DoJ
Scarecrow @ 94
Yaaayyyy! I can not stand Lou Dobbs. He is a total racist.
pointecoupeedemocrat @ 95
good point. i agree. no one is left unharmed.
Mandrake @ 96
digby once said that it’s helpful when others acknowledge that there’s a reason why we’re so angry at what’s happening. — or maybe it was Jane?
Mandrake @ 96
I just terminated my addiction to PAXIL, for I felt that it made me complacent and incoherent. I recommend therapy, however, but please do not allow yourself to become a victim of the pharmaceutical industry. i did, and i regret it immensely, especially as i had to grapple with two months of withdrawal symptoms.
selise @ 81
And a certain sentencing hearing. :)
Been trying to get into the thread for an hour now. The address up top wouldn’t do it. A different kind of torture.
Scarecrow, there is so much wrong with what is going on in our country right now it’s hard to figure out where to begin. It’s like playing pin the tail on the donkey and the entire donkey is an ass. Hit it anywhere and it fits.
Trying to assemble thoughts for this coming sunday, my parting shot with this congregation before I move on and inflict my thoughts on a new group of people. How to say it all in 20 minutes!
Grab another cup of coffee, cause Christy has the next thread ready. Got Honest bobbleheads?
May i digress, ever so slightly, to BLOGWHORE my latest effort? Woody Guthrie’s Guitar: Plain-Spoken Songs of Opposition, Protest & Resistance
If you have favorites, please leave links/messages at the site or email me at k o n o p e l l i at h o t m a i l (w/out the spaces) dotcom?
thanks for your interest
pointecoupee—Sorry you had a difficult time with paxil. It’s not for everyone.
But Paxil, and later Wellbutrin, probably saved my life.
This is a tough time for those of us who get depressed just from normal life.
RevDeb @ 103
You can always just say “goodbye, and it’s been nice. Good luck.”
Is there a problem with the FDL address this a.m.?
Mandrake @ 74
Oh yeah. fox- , red- , gray- , black morph- , & flying squirrels, raccoons, opossum, skunk (;->), coyote, white-tailed deer, deer mouse, woodchuck, butterflies, dragonflies, deerflies, spring peepers, bullfrogs, green frogs, wood frogs……..
The future of every single one of these incredible species is in dire jeopardy, as is ours, so it’s a mixed blessing to share their lives these days. Sometimes, such as now, I am brought to tears, watching and listening to the beautiful sights and sounds.
We do what we can. We have a conservation easement protecting this little patch of land, as rampant development of mini-castle-estates proceeds all around us.
But that problem’s for another discussion.
We are concentrating on torture, its causes, effects, & cures – today – at least so i’ve heard…
Have I mentioned !IMPEACHMENT! today?
/rant
*folds hands, determined to sit quietly at desk*
Scarecrow @ 76
if anyone is capable of more outrage – read this.
otherwise, i recommend avoidance.
Gore Blasts Bush—-VIDEOHarry Smith speaks with former Vice President Al Gore, whose new book “The Assault On Reason,” offers a scathing review of the Bush administration and warns of the deterioration of American democracy.
(((((Mandrake)))))
pointecoupeedemocrat @ 92
Sure. There’s a lot of parallels between France/Algeria and US/Iraq. Ever see Battle of Algiers? It talks to a lot of this stuff, and it’s a great film too.
one way of hiding evidence of torture, is to throw the dead body in a river, for a week or two.
scarecrow @ 94
Thanks for the NYT piece on Dobbs! I’m so glad someone in the msm is calling him out on his made-up facts and pompous blatant biases. He is quite dangerous because of his populist views and the stealth way he plays to the middle-class’ economic anxiety and isolation. I find him scary…
Scarecrow @ 94
Great article. I cannot stress how repulsive I find Dobbs. He’s O’Reilly dressed in better clothes.
ccmask @ 110
Someone gave me the book as a present yesterday, and I started to read. Nice read. I get a little bored with the biology of fear parts though.
egregious @ 106
Yes, Paxil was not good for me but it has helped my mom immensely with anxiety that she has dealt with for many decades.
And thank you for pointing out how difficult day-to-day life is for some of us and how, being sensitive to our environment and to the suffering of other human beings and creatures, sometimes the realities of what’s going on in the larger scheme of things is just hard to bear. I have not just sat back and done nothing, I really have tried to make a difference as I know you have (and much more successfully, you can see the results before your eyes), but still get discouraged from lack of comraderie. No one around me seems to get it, except for my folks.
selise @ 111
Thank you! :)
selise @ 109
Thanks for spotting that one. Should draw lots of attention from the blogosphere.
Quzi @ 114
Yes, this is really what scares me. That those in power will use immigrants as a scapegoat for all our problems, rather than focusing on who really benefits from the cheap labor and outsourcing that is hurting the middle class. The more and more disenfranchised the middle class becomes, the more predisposed they are to look for an easy scapegoat, esp. ones they see every day.
All corporatists would love nothing better than to pit white middle class America against a particular ethnic group. Let them fight it out while we continue to rake in the profits.
Mandrake @ 117
my comment was not a judgment. i just offered my personal assessment of PAXIL. it helped me too, but i am at the point of receiving diminishing returns. after all, it has been four years.
Scarecrow @ 119
Norman Podhoretz is an ugly, ugly man.
pointe @121: I understand. Different things work for different people. You shouldn’t continue with something that’s not working for you.
pointecoupeedemocrat @ 121
I understood that. People’s chemistry is very individual IMHO. What works for one person, does not work for another. A lot of people can take Prozac and family, but I had a friend who buckled under the anxiety he got on it. I also had a friend who is so bipolar, not even 8 differnet meds could make a dent on the mania. What works for some, is just plain evil on others. Not all doctors understand that. Patients have to educate because they are the guinea pigs so to speak. New meds = new side effects.
Mandrake @ 117
Mandrake, I don’t know where you are or what your circumstances are — but have you checked the MeetUp.com website to see whether there are groups near you that might be like-minded? You’d be surprised at what’s out there. (Heck, depending on where folks are, they might even find me…)
I’m certain that taking this step is what kept me from going absolutely bonkers in the depths of 2003-2004.
selise @ 93
We are also the target population.
Good morning, anyone here in epu land?
Just wanted to comment that I don’t believe our thugs in command give a hoot in hell about winning a war as much a waging war. They don’t care about gaining intelligence. I think they just want to beat on people. And get people killed.
Because they can. That’s it. The USA is now just a 200lb gorilla.
108…
…mourning dove, red-tailed hawk, red-shouldered hawk, sharp-shinned hawk, pileated woodpecker, great horned owl, wood thrush, cowbird, chimney swift, barn swallow, turkey vulture, ovenbird, killdeer, meadow vole, gray tree frog, dutchman’s breeches, trout lily, spring beauty, trillium, mayapple, dentaria, beebalm, milkweed, milkweed tiger moth, monarch, deptford pink, staghorn sumac, jewelweed, poison ivy, hawkweed, daisy fleabane, oxeye daisy, butterflyweed, burdock, trumpet vine, hazelnut, pussy willow, American walnut, wild cherry, pignut & shagbark hickory, sugar maple, American beech, damselflies, elderberry, thistles, crabapple, ragweed, goldenrod, dogwoods, ash, viburnum, blackberries, blueberries, wild strawberries, black raspberries, wood lily – [oops], …
yellow ribbon…
OT, but as related as Mr Thompson is to the GOP candidates (just a matter of time) …
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/003315.php
The ACLU said today that it will sue a Boeing subsidiary for helping the CIA to secretly abduct suspects and take them overseas, where they were allegedly tortured–according to a post on Buck Naked Politics.