In the run-up to the sentencing of Scooter Libby next week, there are four major stories around the case, beyond the issue of the public release of letters to Judge Walton about Libby Jane discussed below: the role of Dick Cheney in directing Libby's actions during the week of July 6-14, 2003; Fitzgerald's announcement that Valerie Plame Wilson was determined to be covert under the Intelligence Identities Protection Act early on in the investigation; Fitzgerald's argument for a relatively stiff sentence for Libby of 30-37 months; and Senator Bond's renewal of criticism of the Wilsons in his additional views in the newly released part of the Senate Select Intelligence Committee's report on prewar intelligence on Iraqi WMD.
(There's actually a fifth piece of news, which shockingly has not received as much attention: Murray Waas along with some guy with the same first name as me have edited the transcript of the Libby trial for publication, with a hefty introduction by Waas and extensive editorial apparatus. It will be published on June 5, the day Libby is sentenced. I have it on good authority that it's awesome and you should all buy it. End shameless plug masquerading as news.)
I want to talk about the disclosure that Plame was covert under the IIPA, according to Fitzgerald.
Conservatives have staked a good part of their criticism of Fitzgerald and their defense of Libby on the notion that Plame did not qualify as a "covert agent" under the relevant statute, the Intelligence Identities Protection Act, and Fitzgerald knew it, so the investigation should have been terminated before Libby even got a chance to commit the acts of obstruction and lying for which he has been convicted of crimes. Fred Thompson, incipient Republican presidential candidate and staunch defender of Scooter Libby, recently gave a nice précis of this argument in a speech delivered to the Council for National Policy on May 12, 2007:
[T]here was no violation of the law, by anyone, and everybody — the CIA, the Justice Department and the Special Counsel knew it. Ms. Plame was not a "covered person" under the statute and it was obvious from the outset.
The master purveyor of this argument, however, has been the Republican operative Victoria Toensing, who has claimed some authority because she had some role in the crafting of the IIPA. The key to her argument is not just the claim that Plame was not covert under the IIPA, but that everyone involved in the investigation knew this from early on. Toensing has changed her position slightly over time, offering contradictory characterizations of the position of the CIA and hedging slightly, but the central claim is that investigators either knew or should very easily have figured out that Plame did not qualify as a "covert agent" under the IIPA. Thus back in the fall, she argued on the Wall Street Journal editorial page:
Despite what some CIA good ol' boys might have told Mr. Fitzgerald, he knew from the day he took office that the facts did not support a violation of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act; therefore, there was no crime to investigate.
She argued slightly more carefully in the Washington Post on the weekend between when the two sides finished presenting their cases and when they did their closing arguments, staging a mock-indictment of all manner of people involved in the case outside the White House:
THIS GRAND JURY CHARGES PATRICK J. FITZERALD with ignoring the fact that there was no basis for a criminal investigation from the day he was appointed
and she explains:
On Dec. 30, 2003, the day Fitzgerald was appointed special counsel, he should have known (all he had to do was ask the CIA) that Plame was not covert, knowledge that should have stopped the investigation right there. The law prohibiting disclosure of a covert agent's identity requires that the person have a foreign assignment at the time or have had one within five years of the disclosure, that the government be taking affirmative steps to conceal the government relationship, and for the discloser to have actual knowledge of the covert status.
The key thing here is the bit about "foreign assignment," which is Toensing's gloss on the IIPA's definition of a "covert agent" as someone "who is serving outside the United States or has within the last five years served outside the United States." On the basis of that gloss, Toensing argues that Plame was not covert. And the reason it is important for Toensing to argue that Plame was not covert under the IIPA and that investigators did or should have known that is because if she is right, then she can argue that the entire investigation should never have gotten off the ground, since no conceivable violation of the IIPA could have taken place; and of course without an investigation, Libby would not have been in a position to commit the lies under oath for which he was convicted. (I leave aside, for the purposes of the discussion, the Espionage Act; but Toensing's argument about the Espionage Act has a parallel flaw to the one I identify here.)
However, Toensing is wrong. Fitzgerald has now said:
[I]t was clear from very early in the investigation that Ms. Wilson qualified under the relevant statute (Title 50, United States Code, Section 421) as a covert agent whose identity had been disclosed by public officials, including Mr. Libby, to the press.
That means that, whatever Toensing herself or anyone else thinks about Plame's covertness, those pursuing the investigation determined that she was covert under the statute. (And note that Fitzgerald told the Court of Appeals in August 2004 that his attorneys from the USA office in Illinois had participated in analyzing the relevant statutes.) And the basis for this judgment is no great mystery, now that Fitzgerald has released the unclassified summary of Plame's post-2001 CIA career and cover history. Fitzgerald prepared it in response to an order from Reggie Walton back in June 2006 to give to the defense, after Walton determined that the disclosure of the classified materials bearing on Plame's CIA employment would cause serious if not grave damage to national security, a substitution for that classified material. The summary explains that Plame, an operations officer in the Counterproliferation Division of the CIA, "engaged in temporary duty (TDY) travel overseas on official business. She traveled at least seven times to more than ten countries." And she always traveled under a cover identity of one kind of another. Clearly, investigators understood such overseas duty as qualifying as service abroad, and therefore – in conjunction with Plame meeting the other requirements for being a "covert agent" under IIPA – Plame was covert under the IIPA.
Tom Maguire, the best conservative Plameologist out there, has been quibbling furiously and as entertainingly as ever by raising all sorts of questions about how strong the good faith of this determination was, why Fitzgerald wasn't willing to submit the claim to proof in the adversarial context and so forth. But the issue is not the facts about Plame's career and cover anymore, it's about how to interpret the law, and more particularly the definition of a covert agent as someone who has served abroad in the five years before their outing.
Toensing glosses the service abroad requirement as meaning that someone has had a "foreign assignment" – and other glosses heard from the right include the notion that someone must be "stationed" abroad. Those interpretations carry no particular legal weight or authority, and they are glosses. Fitzgerald evidently has a different interpretation of the requirement that a "covert agent" have served abroad.
Undoubtedly, Toensing will continue to claim that the statute that she had some hand in crafting should be interpreted the way she suggests, and not the way Fitzgerald does (though one does have to wonder why she acquiesced in language that could be open to interpretation this way – if she meant "stationed abroad for some extended duration" by "service abroad", why not just say so?). This could only be settled by being adjudicated in court. But surely Fitzgerald's interpretation is a perfectly reasonable one, and one that there is simply no reason to doubt he made in good faith. As such, the investigation itself was on perfectly sound footing, and so it went forward, and so Libby was prosecuted and convicted for obstructing the investigation by lying egregiously and repeatedly under oath about matters at the heart of that investigation.
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FDL!
A commenter over at TBogg had this suggestion on dealing with all the yapping brownshirts who STILL refuse to recognize Plame’s covert status:
Someone needs to ’splain it to them real slow like — as if to Forrest Gump: her existence isn’t the secret, it’s her affiliation that’s the secret. Valerie Plame was a pretty lady married to Joe Wilson who had two nice kids and worked for a company called Brewster Jennings. The secret (until some blabbermouth blew it) was that she really was a spy, working for the CIA, on Iraq weapons issues. Now, all the other nice people who worked for Brewster Jennings have been screwed, too. And all the nice people they pretended to do business with.
That’s why we don’t tell secrets.
I doubt it will work, but I got a kick out of it…
Jeff!
hello Jeff!
Turn on the light watch the cockroaches scramble, thanks again for the updates
Yeah but like WMDs in Iraq, its ‘move along, nothing to see here’ for the R-Thugs and their media whores.
Also, man I miss The Horse.
Am I right in remembering that the liveblogging of
Toensing’s testimony before Waxman’s Committee recorded Waxman’s telling her that her testimony would be subject to verification on points of fact and law before being entered into the Congressional record, including–he joked-her age at the time she helped draft the law? With the picture of her performance before us, this seems to be the right time and place in our discussions to ask: what happened?
dave @ 2
Loose Lips, Sinks Ships……
fixed your typo
The master purveyor of this argument, however, has been the Republican
operativeapparatchik Victoria ToensingIt’s a fact that cropped up a month or two ago, like one of those whales that breaks the surface and then disappears, but wasn’t V.P.W. in charge of the group explicitly tracking Iraq’s WMD development potential?
If you REALLY wanted to take permanent control of the Iraqi and Iranian oilfields, and had decided that invading both countries was the way to do it, wouldn’t you want to neutralize the leader of the group that would not slant their assessments to agree with what you had decided those assesments would have to look like?
V.P.W.’s career was in danger, married to Mr. Wilson or not and with or without the yellow-cake trip, IMHO.
I’m sure that as I type this, the Repubs are conference calling to line out more talking points and smears to divert attention from the fact that they were WRONG.
I hope to hell that this is rubbed in their face on a twice daily basis from now to eternity.
Bustednuckles @ 11
By whom? Certainly not the media. And without the media exposing the lies, the repub alternate reality takes hold.
I dunno Solai,
there has been some weird shit going on in the media lately.
Who knows, maybe some of them will wake up.
Why isn’t the VP running for the presidency?
How is he going to keep the fix in?
I thought I read somewhere that while she sometimes traveled under her own name she also traveled under other names. To do that she would need false documents so she was obviously covert. While I am a lawyer I have no expertise in that statute, but this seems a no-brainer when you look at the intent of the law. The statute was to protect CIA employees abroad who were not clearly identified as such to the host country – ie spies.
Ms Plame was a spy. She’s covered by the statute/ How hard is that?
Also, what was the point of outing her if she wasn’t a spy? It would be like telling Novakula that Mr Wilson used to be an ambassador – not really news.
OT –
A source in Seattle who has worked for an NYC company with contracts with the Giuliani campaign e-mailed me this morning that Rudy’s organization is looking at Alaska Governor Sarah Palin as an enticing VP choice.
Now back to parsing reality from GOP treachery.
Thanks, Jeff.
I figure we’ll be tapping our toes, waiting for an apology for quite some time.
She’s been trying to split that “covert under IIPA” thing for a while.
Na. Ga. Ha. Pa.
behindthefall @ 14
Um…’cos he’s universally despised?
dave @ 2
there’s a thought going around that cheney WANTED to get rid of all the assets who knew about wmd’s in iraq and about nukes in iran…that way his intel could be more easily adjusted for his “cause.”
too tinfoil? or just creepy?
tommy yum @ 18
Something like 19% JAR, IIRC
Well, Victoria Toensing might be wrong, but at least she has her looks.
behindthefall @ 14
Running for the presidency is so pre-9/11
TeddySanFran @ 21
And what’s the third strike?
Victoria, because she consistently spews Repugnican Talking Points, word-for-word: — “Victrola.”
Toensing, and just becuz it’s fun, and becuz it brings back pleasant memories of another party hack, Dick Morris: — “Toesuck.”
Ladeez and Gentermens, I give you Victrola Toesuck. Let’s give her a rousing ‘PupWelcome, shall we? :)
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tommy yum @ 18
My point exactly. So how does he make sure that Halliburton and Big Oil keep getting huge favors handed to them?
petedownunder @ 20
THIRTEEN
TeddySanFran @ 21
No liquids were spewed on viewing this comment.
Barely.
behindthefall @ 14
what has me worried is that may 9 bush proclaimed he has powers to declare a state of emergency and take over various govt and non-govt functions without congress’s ok. that combined with the fact that we don’t have habeas corpus.
It’s beer O’clock on a very warm Left coast.
Enjoy.
Ed*ard Teller @ 15
unfortunately, our reality is GOP treachery
behindthefall @ 25
By continuing to drink wineglasses full of the blood of young Guatemalan boys and picking his teeth with the bones of virgins.
TeddySanFran @ 26
Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro, Borat, and even Tom DeLay all poll better than Deadeye.
Keith off tonight. yuck.
TeddySanFran @ 21
Barfcity.
Jeff,
Looking forward to reading your book. Will it be offered through FDL like Marcy’s book?
Is this book the reason for the hit-job on Murray Waas a few weeks back?
TeddySanFran @ 21
creepy as they are.
Jane, I went to a football game once, does that qualify me to coach The NY Giants?
It would seem that FACTS have a liberal bias.
i cannot wait to get my hands on that book.
thank you Jeff, i’ve admired your work at TNH and JOM for a long time now.
petedownunder @ 16
what boggles my mind is the bickering over the technicalities of that law. Would it have been right to out her after five years and two days? crikey!
TeddySanFran @ 21
I may be a drunk, but that woman’s an alcoholic.
Ed*ard Teller @ 32
At the risk of a zig – is that 13% or 13 people? The latter is more likely.
One would want to err on the side of protecting covert-ness, in any case, rather than calling journalists and initiating discussions of an agent, covert or not.
If one were an American patriot, that is.
It would seem that we have another B actor planning to run for office. Haven’t we learned that lesson already?
Jeff clearly fails to understand that Toensing is basing her interpretation of the IIPA on secret, invisible hieroglyphics that she inserted into the text and which she alone is able to parse.
Ed*ard Teller @ 32
bet Satan does too. Oh, wait…
tommy yum @ 31
Is that how it’s been done up to now? Or has it involved sabotage of careers of covert agents, etc., where we don’t have a clue about the etc?
It was a two-fer. Kill off Val’s network of real intel regarding real WMD and knock off Wilson and what he found out as well.
How can we make a two-fer out of it?
tommy yum @ 41
She’s married to Joe DiGenova. Some measure of self-medication is to be expected.
Came to it late, but LOVED the letter Jane and Marcy wrote to Judge Reggie.
You Go Girls!
Does anybody seriously think that Rove, Cheney and Bush didn’t know exactly what Libby was up to?
This is somewhat akin to being “the most attractive hippopotamus out there.”
RevDeb @ 44
I sure hope so, but it sounds like he’s the designated BushCo nominee, what with Tim Griffin looking to work on his campaign.
Elliott @ 53
IIRC Griffin excelled in oppo research. A valuable commodity.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 51
Rove and Cheney for sure; they shared their version of intelligence with Bush ’cause, you know, he reads the intelligence reports.
RevDeb @ 48
PELOSI 2007 ?
RevDeb @ 48
First, figure out the REAL reason for the Iraq adventure and the eagerness to bomb/invade Iran. Second, having identified the ox, see how it might be gored.
Elliott @ 56
Works for me!
Fred Thompson must be right. He plays a DA on TV.
Gooper reality!
They know Jack Bauer is covert cause Fox says so.
behindthefall @ 57
The real reason was to start a perpetual war leading eventually to martial law and dictatorship. 1984 meets It Can’t Happen Here.
Everyone is keying in on the ‘Plame was a spy’ angle. No one is talking about the fact that Fitz said (again) that ROVE ALSO BETRAYED HER.
I want this discussed by the MSM.
One would think that “service abroad” would include foreign travel of any kind when in pursuit of intelligence related to one’s employment with a US intelligence agency.
One might plausibly claim that domestic police and counter-intelligence services might protect all manner of employees performing intelligence duties at home, in Langley, VA, for example.
Step into another country and all bets are off, because that country’s police and counter-intelligence services determine what’s allowed in their back garden and what’s not.
Which means that if you’re “out there” gathering intelligence without admitting that’s what you’re doing, you’re engaged in covert activity. At least as understood on the street. Since that seems to be what exposes an intelligence officer to danger – either “out there” or by way of retaliation when back here – one would think that would be the starting point for a statutory analysis, too.
Frankly, this whole line of defense by Libby’s supporters seems cretinous. The WH outed or is protecting those who outed a senior intelligence officer, covert or not, whose specialty was analyzing those all important WMDs. They trashed her govt career, jeopardized her family and professional and personal contacts, and exposed those otherwise infamously protectable “sources and methods” that Bush and Cheney seem bent on gutting the Constitution to protect.
Fresh from the anagram generator…
VICTORIA TOENSING =
GOT A CONNIVER? ‘TIS I!
RevDeb @ 60
But that does not specify how money is involved, and no matter the degree of power, there is always money …
RevDeb @ 44
The lesson the GOP learned from that was: generational transformative victory!
TeddySanFran @ 65
SHUDDER!
Swopa @ 45
This is what really slays me — when other laws are being discussed, I don’t recall some non-entity staffer being dragged up to Capitol Hill (let alone given prime Fred Hiatt real estate) to say “This is what Senator so-and-so meant.” It is a wholly artificial construct to have this person Toensing be credited an expert simply because she worked for the Intelligence Committee when the law was passed.
There is, I believe, credible evidence from her own resume that she was in another city entirely when the IIPA was written.
Ronnie, Arnie and Freddy.
And one more:
JOSEPH DI GENOVA=
GO ON VEEP’S JIHAD
The Murkan people thirst for authenticity.
Fred Thompson plays an authentic character on TV.
Fred Thompson for Preznit!
/corporate media
RevDeb @ 48
Actually, it was supposed to be a three-fer – get anyone else out there wanting to let the truth out to STFU.
I sometimes wonder if Bush ever wonders about what his Presidency would have been like without Dick Cheney and his whole sick crew. He probably would have been a one term mediocrity like his old man instead of the two term catastrophe he has become. But then I remember Bush has no imagination so he doesn’t wonder about this or anything else.
way EPU’d re: Chris Dodd: I think we found someone smart enough to be President again. bout time!
TeddySanFran @ 65
Empty suit, empty head, empty heart, good voice: the perfect Republican candidate.
I may be wrong about this but didn’t Toensing begin working with Goldwater when the bulk of this law was written?
She keeps claiming she “wrote the law” but is that sort of like the Production Assistant claiming they created the show? Both vital jobs but the show creator had a lot more to do with the job getting done.
TeddySanFran @ 67
Link, Teddy?
Per TalkingPointsMemo:
Hurray!!!! One down.
solai @ 77
Doing the Snoopy Happy Dance – woo hoo!
TeddySanFran @ 21
In her appearance before the committee, she looked like she had survived an explosion at a Sherwin-Williams factory.
Ed*ard Teller @ 71
I agree completely. Randi Rhodes of AAR put it best: outing Valerie was basically a death threat against anyone else in the Intel Community: “Do Not Go Up Against Us, or we will put your life on the line by outing you.”
… And treason be damned. This is much too important to be bothered with “a damn piece of paper.”
Too bad, Shooter, your devious little plotlet came to light and will blow up in your face like one of those old blunderbusses. To mix a metaphor: Petard, meet Hoist. :)
————————————————————————
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Swopa @ 45
Oh Swopa, my tall one, there are others; others can see that Scooter scouted spies in the CIA with skill and successfully sized up Ms. Wilson as no CIA spy. She was an administrative assistant who drove in circles simply to survey CIA headquarters from every conceivable angle.
ifthethunderdontgetya @ 70
Fred Thompson
*sigh*
he looks so presidential, what more could we ask for?
Swopa @ 45
Someone stole her decoder ring.
OfT — Chief Justice Roberts denies Palfrey stay.
solai @ 77
But Thompson is talking with him about running his campaign.
Elliott @ 82
Well, he’s twice as smart as Bush so that would make him a halfwit, right?
Hugh @ 86
Comparing Thompson to halfwits is an insult to all halfwits.
solai @ 77
just in time for his subpoena!
Hugh @ 86
Ask Rove about “the Math.”
Rachel on Countdown. Love Rachel!
Fred Thompson and Tim Griffin deserve each other.
What’s NOT deserved is for the American people to have to put up with such a travesty of a sham of a mockery of a campaign.
solai @ 77
How long before Mr. Griffin is brought to justice, for his crimes? (As opposed to installed in the Department of Justice, for his crimes.)
When all is said and done, it’s up to my party. The Democratic Party. In 2008.
Hugh @ 86
at the most!
Re: Griffin
I’m hoping he’s indicted for caging and is too busy trying to stay out of jail to accomplish anything else.
Mrs. K8 @ 91
Actually, the repigs deserve such a campaign. It suits them to a tee.
RevDeb @ 89
LOLF!
Of course, it’s a major hoot, IMO, that there are not one but TWO Thompson’s (Fred and Tommy “Gotta Go” Thompson) running in the GOP for the White House.
Kinda underscores the very notion that these boobs are more or less interchangeable GOP robots.
Now that F. Dalton Thompson’s in, time for Tweety to polish up his Clintonesque questionbox for Mrs. F:
lactating…or gels?
RevDeb @ 90
And she never got a shot at the Imus spot.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 93
hey now, don’t be givin’ up on PELOSI 2007, OK!
We need mandatory basic competency testing for all candidates. With immediate executions if they flunk. Save a lot of trouble in the long run.
there is no question about it, toenail dick cheney’d us, she knew she was dick cheneying and she dick cneney’d anyway
solai @ 95
there’s a happy thought!
Hugh @ 86
I thought that whenever you multiplied a number by zero, ya always got zero as the answer?
RevDeb @ 90
Nice that she’s getting to comment on non-political stories, like TB dude, as well. She is so smart and telegenic; I wish MSNBC would give her the early am OldRacist’s slot.
RevDeb @ 90
Or can you imagine a segue from Keith to Rachel at 6pm? (Nine for you EDTers) How cool would that be!!
It’s not a bug, it’s a feature.
I thought I had read that Fred Thompson wasn’t so thrilled with his previous guvment job …had to spend too much time at work. So now he wants to be president? I guess seeing how much vacation time bush takes must have changed his mind.
TeddySanFran @ 107
THAT would be worth watching! Every night.
perris @ 103
in addition, since she no doubt knew Valery was without question covert, this women dick cheney’d in front of congress under oath.
I think charges should be preferred
earlofhuntingdon @ 62
In a nutshell. Bold added.
Fixed.
perris @ 111
I’m thinkin’ Roman Coliseum.
ironranger @ 109
lol
Hey, since Griffin is one of Rove’s Mini-Me’s (just like Radar’s Evil Twin, Kyle Sampson), does this mean that the Bush Mafia is throwing their weight behind Fred Thompson as the preferred Gooper Successor?!?
Or is Griffin operating independently of Karl “Just Call Me Goebbels” Rove?
perris @ 111
I certainly prefer charges.
Woodhall Hollow @ 112
As if CIA agents didn’t have enough to worry about already. Great way to build the loyalty of people who have access to so much delicate information and contacts.
China and Russia couldn’t ask for better chips to help turn agents.
This is a very depressing thread. Usually, I’m up-beat. I think the depressing stuff is for the Right and Muddle-America, who have to come to terms with military defeat in Iraq. But it’s deeply depressing for me to have to come to terms with a treacherous government. I suppose a lot of Good Germans were in the same predicament in 1938.
Knut Wicksell @ 119
Actually, Depressing is the knowledge that these F*ckers will be doing damage and sucking from the taxpayer trough for DECADES to come.
Knut Wicksell @ 119
Not such a bad analogy. Except that we can still speak out–w/out fear of ending up in a concentration camp…yet. On the other hand, those who have been operating under the delusion that they have “real” power and $$ are absolutely cowed. Terrified of losing their patronage.
Jeff, or anybody who can answer this question.
Has anyone asked Victoria Toensing if she feels “her law” which was designed to protect covert status, worked magnificently by protecting the guilty or failed miserably by not protecting Mrs. Wilson.
Sort of a “when did you stop masturbating in the closet” type of question, but still, is she proud of the law she wrote? Does it need to be tweaked?
Mrs. K8 @ 116
I read a comment over on TPM speculating on that very point. And not just that Rove was getting on the F. Thompson bus, but (no coincidence) the corporate GOP/media machine as well.
RevDeb @ 114
ooo I like the way you think! Imagine the possibilities!
Sugar daddies Fred and Rudy. I’m warning you guys. Do not attempt to try and a smear Senator Clinton for your perception of her relationship with her spouse, should Senator Clinton become my party’s nominee. Two can play that sordid game.
TeddySanFran @ 107
dear moderator/s – feel free to delete this whoopsy where I fired a blankie off. Blushing…
Mrs. K8 @ 116
My take is he’s the BushCo approved successor.
Let’s face it, he’s a huge Scooter supporter.
newspaperbrat @ 126
Tres cool!
stagemom @ 19
For a long time, I believed Plame was outed by a combination of viciousness & negligence, in the course of Cheney playing hardball & getting even. Now, I could easily believe that part of Cheney’s plan was to quash all opposing middle east intell. But Plame’s actual outing still fall’s short of a deliberate hit. i.e. Cheney’s as dirty as hell & went after her given the opportunity, but he’s not so evil & so well planned that he had a laundry list of targets that he was working his way through. JMO
One funny line is attributed to former Sen Fred Thompson, when he was elected and went to DC he said that he missed the honesty and sincerity of Hollywood.
Beyond that I know of no qualifications he might possess.
Oilfieldguy @ 122
No takers?
GOP. You guys want to get down and dirty during the run-up to ‘08? No problem.
We’ve got about half of the Dodd transcript up at the bottom of that thread. Thanks for your patience.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 125
Absolutely-fucking-right. And it would not be smart: McCain, divorced the woman who waited for him while he was a POW in Hanoi to marry one half his age with a convenient fortune; Rudy–beyond the virginal-conservative pale, marriage-wise; Fred Thompson with a wife who is crying out to be drapped; and Romney, a member of a church that has a history of polygany.
I cannot fathom how anyone would have the chutzpa to go after Hilary’s marriage. (not that she is my 1st choice, but still)
Knut Wicksell @ 119
I know what I’m about to say shouldn’t normally fall under the “cheer up!” category, but these are strange times:
Cheer up! If you have forgotten about (or never knew) the history of the Palmer Raids from 1919-1921, there’s a half-way decent article in Wikipedia about them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmer_raids
Anybody who was considered “a leftist radical” who loudly criticized American involvement in WWI or the capitalist strong-arming of union organizers and other labor movement members was subject to imprisonment (with harsh interrogation methods) or deportation.
It’s always been a fight, and probably always will be. We’re in a very, very long marathon, not a sprint.
I know it’s deeply discouraging at times, but we have to hang in there. We have to continue the good fight, however long it takes. In his own country, how long was Nelson Mandela in prison? Surely we must hang in there. For as Franklin said, we must hang together, or surely we will hang separately (paraphrased).
Woodhall Hollow @ 134
Just like we can’t fathom how a bunch of lifer motherfuckers, some of whom who once praised Kerry’s service, would go after him for “slandering the troops” and having medals he didn’t deserve.
Woodhall Hollow @ 134
the irony is that Hillary stayed committed to her marriage, even thru wild Bill’s tomcattin……while these assholes discarded wives like worn out socks whenever a new power-sucking babe came along.
Party of family VALUES, anyone??
It is to barf.
Thanks, thunder and Elliott!
That perplexes me a tad, since I had heard that the really, really BIG, serious money (think: people so wealthy their names don’t show up in the paper very often) was behind Mitt Romney.
Woodhall Hollow @ 134
just how big is the First Wives Club nationwide?
there’s a voting bloc for ya.
The other day I read somewhere that the Clusterfuckers were anxious to change the subject on Iraq- from “When do we withdraw” to “How MANY will we withdraw”. I also noticed that for the very first time- a presidential candidate- Richardson- said that he wanted TOTAL withdrawal. Now today we have the Clusterfuckers raising the issue of whether we will ever totally withdraw- saying that we will/should not.
Interesting- the “change the subject” thing is happening before our very eyes. Clusterfuck may be setting the country up for a “drawdown”- a very gradual descrease in troops levels from the peak of the surge- and he’ll call it macaroni– er victory- er withdrawal.
He’s like to have 90,000 troops in Iraq on election day- but with a slow draw down in place that would take the issue off the table for the elections- and to have america presold on the eternal army in Iraq.
At least that’s my guess about where this humper’s goin.
Romney probably got married in the temple and wears his garment daily and has never fucked another woman than his wife- as far as anyone knows.
I am just trying to picture Fred’s little wife as first lady. How odd that the media that is so enthralled with Fred today haven’t thought how she will fit in the oval office.
rwcole @ 140
bush dick cheney’s us all the time, he can’t help it either.
he tells us what he thinks his base wants to hear and he dick cheney’s with such conviction you wonder if he actually believes his it
behindthefall @ 14
Actually, he wants to run for VP again but has been unable to find another perfect puppet…even among the Bush family.
egregious @ 133
Wow, did you do that because of what I said? Just…wow.
Ok, FDL just earned themselves a donation.
Thank you for your kindness.
People.
Do your deal. Go forth and register three brand new voters. Seek out the overburdened young mother at the local laundromat. Just three. Do you seriously think you would have any trouble signing up three new voters?
Be confident in the knowledge that the Republicant party has naught to offer than fears, smears and queers.
Open the door just a little bit for people searching for just a little break. The only break they will get is from the Democratic party.
The winds are changing in America my friends so take heart. But freedom cannot defend itself.
This is your goal; just three people.
Nelson Mandela was in prison for 27 years. He saw his wife only three times during that period.
Oilfieldguy @ 146
I reserve the right to say ‘I told you so’ in the event Bush or Cheney declares a National Emergency and takes over all branches of government.
New post upstairs -
ironranger @ 142
I think his wife makes him un-electable. Can’t see the christianistas approving of his dumping his first wife for such an obvious trophy wife.
Toensing’s just mad because she’s sure that one of the Republic preznits since 1982 has attached a signing statement somewhere that says that Republics can violate the act. She keeps looking and looking but can’t find one yet.
Swopa @ 45
So, in other words, only dogs can hear it?
Thompson’s trophy wife would have to start dressing dowdy. Probably neither she or Fred would like that idea.
rwcole @ 140
Yes, and the first complete withdrawal should be the paid militia! Only accountable soldiers should be the final men and women leaving Iraq, imo. To be clear, I think it should be a complete withdrawal by all but not one soldier until the unaccountable 300k per year folks are on home turf.
Swopa @ 45
No, no, no. The secret, invisible hieroglyphics are not inserted into the text, they compose the secret legislative history that only she has access to.
FYI, new thread
Phule @ 148
There are a thousand reasons for not getting up and trying to register single mothers, or any non-registered voter.
I know because I can list them. I spent ten years as a commissioned salesman.
Do a little homework and find out what you have to do to legally register voters. Then just go do it. I promise that there is nothing more fullfilling than staring into the eyes of one who is frazzled to their wits end, and to show up and show them just a small thing they can do that might make a difference.
Just three people.
What the mind can conceive, the body can achieve.
ironranger @ 153
There is a long period of singlehood between Mrs Thompsons, about which Fred is known to speak fondly: “Lots of women chased me, and they didn’t have to chase very hard.”
TeddySanFran @ 147
Thank you, Teddy. Kinda underscores my point. I mean, God forbid it should ever come to any one of us having to go to prison for even a day because of dissent — but I try to remember the genuine heroes like Mandela and MLK in Birmingham jail and, well, my great-great-great grandfather who suffered frostbite in a British prison ship off the coast of Long Island during the Revolution whenever I start to get deeply depressed about the state of things.
I also had the tremendous privilege of meeting Archbishop Desmond Tutu many years ago — a man who positively radiates the essence of what he believes in — and he’s another good example to hold before my mind’s eye.
It will, sadly, be a long marathon, this fight for justice.
oilfieldguy, i really admire the “reach-and-register-three” theory you’ve implemented. i wish you’d do a post here explaining it again….
Goodness, there are an awful lot of republican rompers in the prez candidate crowd but somehow the clinton’s personal life is so much more interesting to media.
TeddySanFran @ 158
you mean like Margaret Carlson?
TeddySanFran @ 160
excellent idea
Oilfieldguy –
Thanks very much for that reminder. What you say is so true.
My favorite targets for new-voter recruitment are the folks like cashiers at the local drug store or grocery, or the slicer at the deli counter, or the appointments clerk at the doctor’s office. I don’t get out much, but wherever I do go there are people who are tired and fed up — after commiserating a bit, the suggestion to register to vote is perfectly timed.
And it doesn’t hurt to have registration forms on you at all times!
Toe Sing saw the signing statement.
Gotcha questions we really want to hear asked and answered:
Gov. Romney, as a good Mormon do you believe in polygamy? How much money do you have? Who is your biggest campaign donor? For whom will you cut taxes if you’re elected? You say George W. Bush is a great President: are you kidding?
Mayor Giuliani, why didn’t you tell people to leave the Towers after you’d been warned they were going to fall? How did those advisors know the towers were going to fall? Why did you put the emergency command center in one of the Towers? Will your mistress live with you in the White House as she did in the Mayor’s mansion?
Sen. Clinton, is Bill still messing around? When did you and he last spend a night under the same roof? If your health care reform of 1993 didn’t work then what makes you think you can sell it to America again in 2008? With regard to Iraq, does withdrawal mean leaving 20,000 troops there? Why would you want to increase the number of troops in Iraq at one time and then later-on call for complete withdrawal and then categorize withdrawal as a continued lower-level presence in permanent fortresses? Why would we need to be there?
Sen. Obama, do you *really* believe Americans are going to elect a Black man as President? Or, a man who’s used illegal drugs?
Gotcha is a nasty game and how much better off we’d have been if someone had just asked Dubya if he really meant it when he said America would be better as a dictatorship.
ironranger @ 142
If she is small enough, she can fit in his vest pocket.
He, on the other hand, has to climb up Pat Robertson’s ass, so spare some pity for the Patster.
Hmm. Props on the Waas/Jeff book. I was making great points at an EmptyWheel thread I later realized had died, but my best point was, why can’t Jeff just go on vacation?
Re this:
But surely Fitzgerald’s interpretation is a perfectly reasonable one, and one that there is simply no reason to doubt he made in good faith. As such, the investigation itself was on perfectly sound footing…
I have no good answer, nor will I, unless science delivers a GoodFaithOmeter which we can hook up to Fitzgerald.
However, you seem to have slid right past the *other* question before the house – was Ms. Plame “covert” as per the statute, or not?
We agree that Fitzgerald had plausible reasons to think so, and that his investigation had a plausible basis; we *seem* to agree that Ms. Toensing has a colorable argument.
My official editorial position is that we still don’t “know” , in the sense that we have not seen competing briefs and had a judge rule; nor have we seen an even arguably disinterested brief from, for example, the CIA Counsel. (As of April 2007, they were still stroking their beards in puzzlement):
On March 21, Hoekstra [Ranking Republican on the House Intel Committee] again requested the CIA to define Mrs. Wilson’s status. A written reply April 5 from Christopher J. Walker, the CIA’s director of congressional affairs, said only that “it is taking longer than expected” to reply because of “the considerable legal complexity required for this tasking.”
I think “I don’t know” is a perfectly reasonable answer, and a careful reading of you post suggests you agree with me, but I have the impression that the commenters here think that the question is settled.
This is somewhat akin to being “the most attractive hippopotamus out there.”
Good point. And I bet you say that to all the hippos.
From the earl of huntingdon at 62:
One might plausibly claim that domestic police and counter-intelligence services might protect all manner of employees performing intelligence duties at home, in Langley, VA, for example.
Step into another country and all bets are off, because that country’s police and counter-intelligence services determine what’s allowed in their back garden and what’s not.
Which means that if you’re “out there” gathering intelligence without admitting that’s what you’re doing, you’re engaged in covert activity. At least as understood on the street. Since that seems to be what exposes an intelligence officer to danger – either “out there” or by way of retaliation when back here – one would think that would be the starting point for a statutory analysis, too.
Frankly, this whole line of defense by Libby’s supporters seems cretinous.
Cretinous? Golly.
Your basic point started promisingly – I hauled out a link (scroll way down to “More On The IIPA“) to a discussion of the case against Agee (who inspired the IIPA), and yes, it was activity abroad that troubled people, and yes, the absence of reliably friendly US police protection was one issue.
However, the other issue was that agents *stationed* abroad were especially vulnerable because they were generally known to the locals, who could observe their daily routine and infer that the ostensible Foreign Service officer was not doing a whole lot of foreign service-related work. That would not be an issue for someone flying in on a short assignment.
(Bonus Absurdity – the Foreign Service insisted that CIA people on Foreign Service cover had a different category of personnel number; hence, anyone with access to a “Foreign Service” roster could easily pick out the CIA officers, which also led to mass outings. Oops.)
I probably ought to talk up my Challenge Round a bit – per CIA regs, officers with service abroad get a bump up in their pension. So, did Ms. Plame get a bump for service abroad between, say, June 1998 and June 2003?
No harm in asking old Joe. Have him document his answer with someone credible, and maybe we will believe him, too.
To be fair, internal CIA pension calculations may not jibe with the IIPA either, but it would be an interestin gdata point.
Mrs. K8 @ 164
you rang? hehe
sounds like a good idea. might be even more fruitful in a purple state like FLA or OH.
solai @ 150
The Christain right can rationalize anything including torture and murder. They shouldn’t have any problem twisting their twisted minds around a trophy wife.
TeddySanFran @ 67
Yes, apart from all the difficulties with the notion that she has some special access to the meaning and intent of the bill, much less that her interpretation has any legal authority whatsoever, in her testimony before Waxman’s committee, she acknowledged in passing that hearings on and drafts of the bill had already happened before she became a staffer on the SSCI.
Furthermore, she hilariously blames the media for its misunderstanding of the term “agent,” who is an informant or source for the CIA, as distinct from an “officer,” who works for the CIA, and then explains that to make the legislation simply, the drafters of the bill just used “covert agent” to cover both.
When she does come to trying to use the legislative history of the IIPA to her advantage on the question of the definition of “covert agent,” she makes a hash of it, because in fact there’s nothing to support her interpretation. For instance, she notes that “the legislation limited coverage of U.S. citizen informants or sources (agents) also to situations where they ‘reside and act outside the United States.’” Gee, you think that might be because there’s something a little funky about the notion of the CIA or other intelligence agency spying domestically and using Americans as informants? Gee, you think that might be a relevant consideration that makes this not parallel to the case of intelligence officers?
Right before that, she quotes part of the legislative history where it notes that the Committee was careful with its definition. Then it notes – and Toensing adds emphasis – “Undercover officers and employees overseas may be in special danger when their identities are revealed. . . .” Well, gee, we now know that Plame was indeed an undercover officer overseas. And then again, the law itself is clear that the officer need not be overseas at the time of the outing; indeed, the officer may have last been overseas as long ago as five years.
And then of course her own explanations for the five-year window applies immediately to Plame, assuming she had some sources abroad.
And then Toesing consistently silently uses the language of foreign assignment as though it were immediately and obviously synonymous with service. Is it? Did Plame get an assignment to go abroad when she went abroad, under cover?
Tom
I have no good answer, nor will I, unless science delivers a GoodFaithOmeter which we can hook up to Fitzgerald.
However, you seem to have slid right past the *other* question before the house – was Ms. Plame “covert” as per the statute, or not?
We agree that Fitzgerald had plausible reasons to think so, and that his investigation had a plausible basis; we *seem* to agree that Ms. Toensing has a colorable argument.
The reason I slid past it is because, while I can give you my own best judgment, that doesn’t really matter, and not only do Toensing, Thompson and the rest lose the argument with your concession that Fitzgerald had plausible reasons to think so, but the question of whether Plame actually is covert under the IIPA would have to adjudicated and would turn entirely on precedent-setting interpretation of the statute, not on the substance of Plame’s work abroad. Plame periodically did covert work overseas (where covert is used in the real-world, CIA sense). Fitzgerald believes that meets the definition of service abroad. Toensing, presumably, will continue to think that it does not. I take it nothing will convince her otherwise. So what would be the point? But the fact remains that as you concede that Fitzgerald’s interpretation is coherent and plausible, that in itself means the investigation proceeded on good faith. No need for the goodfaithometer. And I say that fully agreeing that Fitzgerald is a typical very aggressive federal prosecutor. But if you’ve got a complaint about it, take it to the criminal justice system, not to Fitzgerald; he’s as good as they come (and I’m not just using the current crop of fellow Bush-appointed USAs as my comparison pool).
Here’s a test for you. If Miller had come in and testified either that Libby told her Plame was covert, or that Plame had been involved in that aluminum tube thing in Jordan, and had even helped initiate it by doing some work presenting herself as an energy analyst there, in either case do you think that Fitzgerald would have indicted Libby on IIPA charges?
Your test is an interesting one, and I don’t see why not check, as long as you agree it’s idle, for the reason you suggest. Or else you want to ask CIA whether they categorized Plame as covert or under cover – not under IIPA but according to their own, real-world categories?
Mrs. K8 @ 164
I do the same thing, especially in the big box discount stores. Nice to see you, Mrs. K8!
Hmmm … “drawdown” was a provision in the approrpriations bills, as ’security of US personnel in Iraq,’ the white elephant embassy and so on. Total withdrawal would never have meant “no troops left behind”.
Anyway. Now that we know a great deal of the Valerie case, there is an overlap that really needs investigation, too. Which is the ex-FBI translator, Sibel Edmonds, with hints of other intelligence matters hidden from view. Could even tie into a Carol Lam type corruption investigation. But we may never know, as long as Sibel is hampered by a gag order.
It was the CIA itself that originally referred the Libby case to the Justice Department. Does Toensing think she knows better than the CIA whether Plame was covert?
Did she and Boris have their shame glands surgically removed?
tommy yum @ 18
…cheney/satan ‘08 …
k bond is still questioning mrs wilson’s involvement in sending her husband on the tour.
this is a lady who put her life on the line for this country while most republicans were advancing to the rear when it was their turn to serve. mr bond just shutup and sitdown.
Elliott @ 53
I would think that the speech about Libby will come back to bite him in the backside. That is really a slap in the face to our judicial system and the courts. Not very “Law and Order” like Fred!
Bustednuckles @ 11
Who exactly is going to rub it in their faces? Our “press”?
Hahahahaha — you are hilarious!
Tom Maguire @ 168
You seem to be missing the fact that Bushco OUTED BREWSTER JENNINGS at the same time.
Hey, do you think, mebe, that THOSE OFFICERS deployed to the various Brewster Jennings offices worldwide minded being outed? Do you think their contacts minded being outed to their governments? Do you think that Cheney cares how many CIA NOCs he gets killed?
He doesn’t care how many soldiers he gets killed — why should we think he cares about CIA officers?
You come and cover, on the small end of the issue. Dick really appreciates it. Go get a cookie from Karl — you’ve earned it.
Swopa @ 52
I think it’s closer to being the smart kid in the STOOPID row.
Swopa @ 49
I flew back from Paris last year with these two in the next row. Even if I didn’t know their politics, I could have guessed. Disfunctional doesn’t describe it. Ugh! Blech!!! I need brain bleech just to cleanse the memory cells.
It is alarming that Victoria Toensing, Bob Woodward, Bob Novak, Fred Thompson and others do not consider outing a CIA undercover agent (NOC) a serious crime. It is especially disturbing to hear that they do not consider outing Plame whose job it was to follow the path and sales of WMD’s, a very very serious crime.
Why is it that Toensing, Novak, Woodward, Thompson, etc do not consider the undermining of U.S. National Security by outing Valerie Plame a crime which Libby and others should be held accountable for?
What would these people consider crimes? Robbing a corner service station? Their priorites are twisted and telling.
Would these people be considered traitors in other countries?
dave @ 2
Real slow. And by outing Plame the U.S.’s ability to collect info on WMD’s into or out of Iraq, Iran (where ever else Valerie was doing her spy work) has been completely undermined. Her outing has also undermined U.S. National Security.
Forrest Gump would have gotten it right away.
Toensing, Novak, Woodward do not want to get it. Why is that? Would that mean that they are traitors?
Where is Victoria Novak?
BlueStateRedHead @ 7
Why did Waxman leave the record open for Toensing to change for 30 days? Why not hammer Toensing for undermining Fitz case?
It seems like Thompy boy is showing his loyalty to the Goopers by getting involved in Bush’s criminality. Somewhat OT, but he’s also getting Cager Griffin to run his campaign.
kathleen @ 186
Kathleen@186. You seem to know Congressional procedure so bear with me as I ask a follow up question. If I understand correctly you indicate that there is a 30 day period in which the record can be corrected. But who does the correcting, the witness or the Committee staff?
In either case, if already done, it would be very enlightening to make a comparison and see what got corrected–and, possibly, how close VT came to perjury. If EW and Jane have not already done so and think it might be useful, are there any volunteers for a joint effort? Jeff,Jane, EW–let us know if this would help.
kathleen @ 186
Now that you’ve conceded that much maybe you can discuss whether you have an opinion on the motive in the original exposure of Plame and the subsequent criminal obstruction into the investigation of that act. Maybe you can even arrive at some kind of a judgment on the broader actions of the people arrayed against Plame and Wilson. In the particular matter under discussion here, your defense of them is that, oops, it wasn’t really clear whether Plame was covert, so why not err on the side of recklessness and fuck her good, and I imagine your defense of the war itself would be, too, that — oops — no one really knew there weren’t WMD in Iraq. Honest mistakes, both, huh? Why not drag the woman into the limelight and wreck her career when the risk of that dandy Wilson blabbing could only be greater than the risk Plame and everyone associated with her might be compromised?
I’m just a schlump who knew enough from reading the papers to know that the war was based on lies. That you persist in a moot argument about Plame’s status reveals a kind of sophistry positively sociopathic in its aim of distracting from the host of war crimes the assault on Plame was in the same way meant to obscure.
Tom Maguire @ 168
Now that you’ve conceded that much maybe you can discuss whether you have an opinion on the motive in the original exposure of Plame and the subsequent criminal obstruction into the investigation of that act. Maybe you can even arrive at some kind of a judgment on the broader actions of the people arrayed against Plame and Wilson. In the particular matter under discussion here, your defense of them is that, oops, it wasn’t really clear whether Plame was covert, so why not err on the side of recklessness and fuck her good, and I imagine your defense of the war itself would be, too, that — oops — no one really knew there weren’t WMD in Iraq. Honest mistakes, both, huh? Why not drag the woman into the limelight and wreck her career when the risk of that dandy Wilson blabbing could only be greater than the risk Plame and everyone associated with her might be compromised?
I’m just a schlump who knew enough from reading the papers to know that the war was based on lies. That you persist in a moot argument about Plame’s status reveals a kind of sophistry positively sociopathic in its aim of distracting from the host of war crimes the assault on Plame was in the same way meant to obscure.
victrla toejam please be aware, noe this doesn’t teke tooomuch intel, but covert alows you a “get out of jail free card” hello!minch your words or what ever it’s not difficult to find out if she had the “card” ask her
You don’t understand…VPW couldn’t POSSIBLY be a covert operative, because she’s a girl .
Everyone know that only boys get to do that kind of stuff.