If this were only pieces on the chessboard or a poorly dealt hand of cards at stake, it wouldn't be so disturbing. Via AP:
Increasingly isolated on a war that is going badly, Bush has presented his alternative reality in other ways, too. He expresses understanding for the public's dismay over the unrelenting sectarian violence and American losses that have passed 3,400, but then asserts that the public's solution matches his….
In fact, polls show Americans do not disagree, and that leaving — not winning — is their main goal.
In one released Friday by CBS and the New York Times, 63 percent supported a troop withdrawal timetable of sometime next year. Another earlier this month from USA Today and Gallup found 59 percent backing a withdrawal deadline that the U.S. should stick to no matter what's happening in Iraq….
"They want to know when American troops are going to leave," Kohut, director of the nonpartisan Pew Research Center, said of the public. "They certainly want to win. But their hopes have been dashed."
Kohut has found it notable that there's such a consensus in poll findings.
"When the public hasn't made up its mind or hasn't thought about things, there's a lot of variation in the polls," he said. "But there's a fair amount of agreement now."…
Wayne Fields, an expert on presidential rhetoric at Washington University in St. Louis, said the president's new language exploits the fact that there is no one alternative strategy for the public to coalesce around, which clearly spells out how to bring troops home. Bush can argue that people agree with him because no one can define the alternative, Fields said.
But, with the president's job approval ratings so low and the public well aware of what it thinks about the war, Bush is taking a big gamble.
"This is a very tricky thing in our politics. We want to think that we want our leaders to stand up to public opinion. But we also like to think of ourselves as being in a democracy where we are listened to," Fields said. "He risks either the notion of being thought out of touch … or to be thought simply duplicitous."
Could I select option three: the President is both out of touch and duplicitous? Whatever undisclosed rabbit hole they have Dick Cheney crouching in these days in his off-time, could someone go over and fetch a "Drink Me" bottle of the delusional cocktail that they have been spoonfeeding the neocons? They still pretend to be ten feet tall with their ever-shrinking public support, and they can't just fortify themselves with hot air and backpatting alone, can they? There has to be some kick to that stuff that gives them the acting chops or the delusions of candor to appear, in public at least, to sail blissfully along on a rose-colored sea while the rest of the country sees something entirely more fetid and chaotic. But the mask is slipping, and I begin to see some panic behind the clenched cheshire grins.
As for the ever-shrinking Bush poll numbers? He appears to have fallen down a hole of his own digging…and no amount of PR jabberwocky will set things right again. While the President continues to see himself as a white knight of sorts, or perhaps even an indulgent ruler if a bit on the petulant side, what the rest of us see is a man who has dragged us all along to an increasingly mad party of his own making. But no one seems to know the way back through the looking glass…
(Photo of Alice and the pack of cards in the Fortnum and Mason window via Draconiansleet. If you get a chance, look through the pictures of the other windows in the photostream. Simply brilliant stuff – would love to have seen these in person. H/T to reader WB for the link to the AP article. Also, Juan Cole had an exceptional piece yesterday about a chance encounter with two soldiers in an airport, that was as pointed as it was poignant. Do take some time to feed your head and read it. And you knew I couldn't miss an opportunity for a Jefferson Airplane link here, didn't you?)
Related posts:
Spotlight
Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Firedoglake
Advanced search
‘Morning, Christy!
I can’t help but wonder if Kissinger’s words of advice have anything to do at all with Bush’s stubborn desire to stay in Iraq.
Certainly DeadEye’s profiteering combined with a domino theory to fell the middle east and petroleum resources have much to do with it, but did Kissinger close the sale?
Morning Rayne! How’s tricks?
Today’s trick: take the laptop out on the deck to keep an eye on the Lake while I finish planting peppers and leeks.
How’s things in WV? How’s the Peanut? and are you ready for summer break?
Good morning Christy!
We really missed you when you were away.
Rayne at 3 — The Peanut is well. And I am ready for summer break, although I have several things that need to go in the ground today, too, and I’m trying to figure out how to juggle my schedule to get them there. *g* It’s the never-ending need for a clone to get everything accomplished that needs doing. But that’s pretty much a constant here. ;-)
egregious at 4 — Thanks much. It’s awfully good to be home, although I do miss that sleeping in part of vacation…
Gee, Christy’s kicking a** on a Tuesday morn’. Now, who’da thunk it? Besides most everyone with a brain that is?
As a survivior of the ’70s, one part of me wishes I could try some of those chemicals they MUST be using to have their not so wonderful hallucinations. But when I used it was for the fun and what they deal with can’t be fun no matter how hard ya try.
Rayne, I sure enjoyed the discussion on life in BFE, MI yesterday. Few people know that area and can envision what life might have been like for a poor GI. Thank ye kindly.
mornin’ Redd. working on research for the next US Attorney hearing. should be a productive week.
dakine01 at 7 — I had a little too much fun with this one, I think…but I got on a roll and couldn’t help myself.
Good Morning!
Have a few minutes before I make a very early start to my day.
You’re right of course, to the extent that Bush isn’t out of touch, he is duplicitous, and if he’s not being duplicitous, it’s only because he’s so out of touch that he is telling some buried internal truth.
Did everyone see Al Gore on the Daily Show? When did our standards for Presidential Leadership sink so low that we’d accept what we have now (and, as Molly Ivins told us, all you had to do was look to know that this was what you were gonna get)?
Sadly, I don’t put it past this country to make the same mistake twice – we have much work to do over the next 17 months to make sure it doesn’t happen again.
dakine01 @ 7
No problem, dakine; I do know it can get hellish in BFE MI from time to time, like the during the impending black fly season. Ugh. It could have been much worse, you could have been at K.I. Sawyer for that time of the year.
And you do recall that the state bird here is the mosquito…
“He risks either the notion of being thought out of touch … or to be thought simply duplicitous.”
I would argue that both are true.
Scott McClellan’s favorite phrase for discounting the merits of polls was that they were merely “a snapshot in time.” Bush used this line in his press conference the other day, Gonzales a few days earlier, I think.
They have answers — however hallucinogenic or hollow — for everything.
Bush announces Darfur sanctions
Apologies if this has already been mentioned. Bush had an 8 am appearance this morning. I don’t think he took questions.
Morning Christy,
Just a drive by before I drive to work on the Cape.
Finished reading It Can’t Happen Here by Sinclair Lewis this weekend on the long drive to and from PA. The hero of the story, Doremus Jessup’s nickname is Doormouse. Combine that book with Conason, the great piece by Naomi Wolf in the Guardian, Hedges, and several other pieces and our situation comes into clearer perspective. And it’s not good.
It came clear to me last night that the war is “just” a device to drive us into a totalitarian state. Cheney et al don’t give a damn about anything but power and money with an emphasis on power.
Hopefully the sunny day will help my disposition. Thank Goddess that the bloggers are here to unearth the draconian filth that the Bush Crime Family is doing to the country.
Good morning, gang!
Rayne @ 11
Much as I hate cold and snow (yet lived in upstate NY and New England for years as well as MI!). KI might have been better. At least they had the university nearby. BFE was small town who seemed to hate the GIs and only begrudgingly took our money whenever they could. The biggest positive I could find was the ability to get into a game of Euchre most any night at some of the bars.
Thanks Christy.
FWIW
The General, Greenwald, and Larry Johnson nail Bush Cheney on logistics
Bold is mine.
Declassified pdf link
Good morning Christy. What you need is my daughter-in-law’s sister. She runs a very small (read one person) business where she plants flower and vegatable beds every spring for $100. Does it all — the digging up, fertilizing, planting, mulching — everyting for $100. A one time cost. It usually takes 1-2 days to get everything planted the person wants. she will come back every month or so to weed for a small fee.
but the backbreaking work of getting everything into the ground she does. She has many busy working people clients plus some of us older folks whose backs won’t allow kneeling on the dirt for very long. Great idea, great person, wish I could send her to you today.
she and her hubby bought a 20 acre old farmstead and gutted it. And they are on a 20 year plan to restore it. At least their floors are fixed and one doesn’t need to walk around the ‘holes’.
Hope your day goes well, inspite of what Bush and crew are up to.
Alice would have felt right at home in the current US of A:
Up is down; black is white; bad is good.
OT: I just noticed that the SJC has a hearing scheduled June 7 on Prevention of Deceptive Practices and Voter Intimidation in Federal Elections: S. 453. I haven’t looked at the bill yet but this could be very interesting in light of all the shenanigans that have goon on the last few years.linky
GrandmaJ @ 19
Grandma J– any chance she’s living in eastern Massachusetts? :-)
TiredFed @ 8
TiredFed – thank you! i found your background and list of proposed questions for goodling very helpful.
RevDeb @ 15
Morning all!
1.) what Christy said
2.) what RevDeb said. But forewarned is forearmed.
3.) I think it’s spelled dormouse
Now off to the Fort til later.
BushCo is winning, it’s just that they will never tell anyone what they are winning. They clearly intend to stay in Iraq for a very long time, and they have no intention of letting the American people in on their real plans.
It seems that the NeoCons are bent on teaching the Islamic world that it is useless to resist American might while simultaniously teaching the American people that it is useless to resist the will of our imperial kleptocracy.
The only building projects being completed are immense military bases and a American embassy that looks like the death star.
The lesson for the people of the region is simple, if unbelievable, resist and we’ll lay waste to your country and leave you with no water or electricity.
For Americans, the lesson is shut up.
We have only one way out of this mess, impeachment, and soon.
safe driving RevDeb @ 15
John Casper @ 14
Didn’t that strike you as a purely cynical act for the purposes of propping up JAR? After all these years, 200K-plus dead, millions displaced, why is he going through the effort now?
One of the reasons this moron-in-chief seems so psychotic is his vacillation between two different strategies for governance. When the JAR is too low, he is propelled towards efforts that prop up his percentages. When the market and his cut in profits dips overmuch, he moves to boost the military-industrial sector.
Or, in other words, he is both out of touch and duplicitous, depending on whether he is governing any given day by his JAR or his pocketbook.
edit: Nuts, I’m short three tomato cages. Have any of you tried the red mulch under tomatoes that allegedly increases fruit setting?
laurie9 – well at least my state starts with an ‘M’ – but is Minnesota. She is the hardest working ladies I have ever met. She works full time besides and does the planting on the weekends and evenings through late April and May. And periodic weekends through the summer. Absolutely amazing.
John Casper @ 14
No questions taken. Shorter GWB: “I gave ‘em a chance to comply with my demands – they didn’t – now we’re gonna f**k ‘em up”.
The End.
I don’t care if he *is* right about this one – his delivery just totally removes any chance of a sympathetic reception around the world with his bullying style. What shone through was not humanitarian concern, but that he was pissed that his orders weren’t followed.
Well, let’s get one.
Seriously, what’s the best-case scenario here for retrieving America’s honor (1) while cutting her loses?
Our country is responsible for so much grief, and clearly we can’t repair all of it–in fact, probably most of it. If we try to fix everything we’ve done to Iraq, we’ll never leave. So, responsible or not, we need to draw some lines about what we can take care of. And one of those lines should be: We’re not responsible for people the Iraqis kill, blow up, torture, chase out of town, etc. One could argue that we took away their babysitter, psychotic though Saddam may have been; therefore it’s now our fault that the factions can’t play nice together. TS. It’s their country.
- That said, there’s apt to be a bloodbath after we’re out. (In fact, there’s a bloodbath going on even before we’re out; it’s not clear that our presence is making much difference in this regard.) If the violence gets worse (or even if it doesn’t) we want it to be as survivable as possible for the bystanders. (The participants should ES&D.)
- To the extent that the Iraqis choose to treat the violence as a political issue, they’re on their own. If they want to treat it as a criminal matter and they invite us, we’ll help.
- Mindful of our disgrace in exiting Saigon, we have to look out for any Iraqis who are in danger as a result of working with us. We should be prepared to bring them home to the States, if they want, along with their families. And we don’t get to bitch if this turns out to be a lot of people.
- We should clean up as much of our own mess as we can. Wrecked buildings, toxic waste, radioactive munitions–pick ‘em up, and stow ‘em in a safe place. This could take years, so limit it to what we can tidy up in the (one hopes) few months until we’re gone. We can offer to come back and finish later on if invited.
- What few structures we’ve built (the Green Zone, e.g.) should be left in decent condition so the Iraqis can get some use out of them after we leave. We should make sure the new tenants know about any bugs–e.g., Halliburton’s water delivery system.
- While we’re picking up after ourselves, let’s see how many weapons we can take out with us. Ideally, we want their civil war to be fought with slingshots and pointy sticks.
- It would be great if we could leave them with functioning electricity etc, but we’ve had three years to get the utilities going and they’re still down, so I don’t hold out much hope. Fortunately, Iraq has perfectly capable engineers of their own. Maybe we could leave behind some construction equipment and the supplies they need to rebuild.
- Let’s stock the hospitals too. And try to get the farms up and running. (It may be possible to do some of this after we’re gone, which means we can leave faster.)
NOTE: I honestly don’t know how much of this is feasible or useful.
(1) To any Republicans who may be reading this: America’s honor isn’t the same as Bush’s. Bush never had any.
Yes.
OT, but it looks like Richard Cohen has fallen off his meds again. His column in today’s WaPoo (which I will not link to, you’re gonna have to go see for yourself if inclined) offers the premise that the Chimpenfuhrer is more liberal than we think becuz he sin’t trying to kill the Education Dept or any of the other standard wing-nut conventions of how big guvmint is bad. I think he’s talking to Alice today as well…
Bush duplicitous and out of touch – true, and you can add warmongering to the mix.
dakine01 at 32 — yes, I saw that — it’s so bad it is laughable.
Molly at 30 — I started thinking about that, too — that paragraph was particularly painful to read after last week’s irritating vote. SIGH
Good Morning, all.
Welcome home, Redd! Good to see ya!
Coffee anyone?
Humpty Dumpty:When I use a word it means just what I chose it to mean – neither more or less.
Alice:The question is, whether you can make words mean so many different things.
Humpty Dumpty: The question is: which is to be master – that is all.
jayt at 29 No questions taken. Shorter GWB: “I gave ‘em a chance to comply with my demands – they didn’t – now we’re gonna f**k ‘em up”. The End.
The demand is simple: sign your long term oil contracts over to us, or we’ll keep destroying your water, electrical systems, hospitals, and so forth while provoking groups that hate each other to cross the line into killing.
When they say the Iraqi government is not cooperating, they mean the Iraqis are refusing to sign over their oil.
oh – you know, the admin just thinks we are stupid.
Doormouse?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HmJQyS8QVw
Molly at 30,
I’d make it even simpler.
1.) Get the hellout ASAP, leapfrog retreating lines to airfields or whatever (IANAMil Strategist) and evaculate. If we’re lucky maybe we can negotiate a cease-fire with some of the factions, but not to count on.
2.) Take any and all refugees that want to come with us, we owe them that.
3.) Forget about cleanup, I am sure they are saying to us, “Just go.” We cannot fix anything, they can, we get out of their way.
4.) We take nothing. No oil, no ‘agreements’ and we cede all bases including the Emerald City.
And, the more Ilook at that the more I see that it.will.not.happen. No wonder Cindy Sheehan packed it in.
I was just thinking, remember Dune, and the emperor’s
BlackwaterSardukar elite troops?Emperor Chimpy III has picked us a fight with the Fremen. We know how that comes out.
‘Follow us home’ indeed. Trans, “I grabbed a tiger by the tail, now you gotta fix it.” All for
oilspice.you know, the bushites make it pretty damn easy. they don’t do nuance, as they famously noted, so all of their activities are as obvious as they are duplicitous.
their strength has always been that of authoritarians everywhere: betting that the means to stop them are slow, lightly used and irrelevant in the face of consistent defiance.
slightly ot, but really not as it addresses the folks who support such regimes, driftglass has another typically brilliant piece.
http://driftglass.blogspot.com/
HotFlash @ 41
dam nice summary :)
OldCoastie @ 39
is it wrong?
much of the country is happy to go along — could we just not be bothered? and have gas at a reasonable price? and maybe, y’know, a raise we can use for a job that is ever-so-poised to be shipped overseas?
I don’t believe that the admin is stupid. I believe that it has systematically and thoroughly oppressed free speech, has ruined civil rights, and oppressed the citizenry and has placed dogmatic obedient followers throughout all governmental agencies and the military. Where are the voices of all of the ousted career professionals? Anecdotally, there are hundreds, if not thousands, displaced, careers subverted, and pushed out of civil service in the CDC, NIH, FDA, DOJ, CIA, FBI, GAO – you name the agency, and a Google search will turn up some sort of programmed infiltration of it.
Where are all of those people? Well, they are not an organized force with a national voice. The MSM hasn’t pursued them. They have no whistleblower protections. They may very well be threatened (look at the incarcerated lady who was a victim of the US attorney scam).
No – I think the takeover is well under way, and that the damage is permanent.
The sole means to totally correct the problem is by impeachment and by massive terminations at every governmental agency – say all hires from the point of Bush 2000 reign by SCOTUS edict. And then one must return to corporate and industry regulation and begin to correct for all of the years of free market chaos and oppression of workers.
Nope – this train wreck will never be fully righted, and its dumped loads never fully cleaned up, reloaded and delivered to its intended destination.
Our country is wounded – the sole question is now whether its a fatal wound or whether there is any hope for some sort of rehabilitation.
Read Juan Cole’s piece, and felt sad. A lot of servicemen do seem out of sorts abroad, don’t they? It’s always a trip talking to them in when buzzing from jet lag and they are clearly buzzing as well. I once saw a group hooting “American women, yeah!” , (how on earth do they know?) I guess we American women instinctively skirted away, but then I had to wait in line with them jumping up and down behind me, with this “Can I touch your hair?” stuff. Boundaries, please. I guess everyone’s experiences are different.
Molly, NYC @ 30
imo -
with bush in charge – there is no magic pony plan for leaving, just as there is no magic pony plan for staying.
at the moment there are 2 options:
1. a fucked up occupation
2. a fucked up withdrawal.
and really, we gotta lot of work to do to even make option #2 happen.
maybe scarecrow is right – first we impeach bush et al.
but i just can’t see making an end to the occupation dependent on bush leaving office. i’m not willing to delay… and there’s no gaurantee that the next president will want, or be willing to, withdraw (even a D – lbj ought to be a lesson to all of us).
all our options suck.
p.s. for an excellent discussion on iraq and withdrawal (among other iraq topics), i highly recommend the most recent podcast at electric politics, George Kenney interviews Wayne White (tech member of ISG):
p.p.s. sorry about the dfh language. i’ve hit the wall… come this july, a conservative estimate for the number of iraqi deaths we caused will hit 1 million. polite language is inadequate to the circumstances.
Bush/Cheney are just the puppets of the oil barons.
That is a truly great photo.
We are not going to just have to find a way to withdraw from Iraq. We will also have to prepare for refugees as well. Given the current anti-immigrant attitudes so popular among demagogues and Michelle Malkkins alike, that will be difficult, but it must be done.
while i’m recommending george kenney’s electric politics weekly podcast, i should mention (especially for christy) the previous week’s interview with joe rich (37 years in the doj’s civil rights division):
good morning jane.
selise at 48:
polite language is indeed inadequate.
whenever rightwingers or their enablers characterize the opposition as “angry,” i think of two things.
1) they’ve lost the argument; this kind of dismissive shrug is merely a weak attempt to distract.
2) if you’re not angry, hell, if you’re not furious, you’re not paying attention.
Jane at 50 — I loved it. The whole series of pix on these Fortnum and Mason windows are visually breathtaking. Very well done stuff.
mui @ 51
agreed. a moral imperative.
wayne white (see above) said that if we take just the iraqis who have worked with the usa, and their immediate families) – to prevent them from being targeted for revenge killing – it will be, conservatively, 100,000 people.
selise @ 48
I think I saw Keith Olberman showing a clip of Rosie O’Donnel(sp?) talking about 600,000 Iraqi dead and arguing with her conservatively inclined co-host who was persuaded that the 600,000 dead were not the fault of the U.S. and used some “they’re killing their own people” kind of fatuous type of retort.
Of course, wingnuts will say Rosie’s gone off the wall when she’s exactly correct at the appalling death rate of Iraqis.
Considering the comparisons to Alice in Wonderland, I want to share with everyone The Mad Tea Party by Mark Bryan which, to me, is the most stunning and comprehensive representation of the Cheney/Bush administration, its enablers, and the consequences of this foreign policy: tragic, cruel, voracious, and transparent in purpose.
Molly, NYC @ 30
I don’t believe that there is any noble way for a rapist to withdraw.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 55
I agree and thanks for the link.
selise @ 56
That’s not a conservative number compared with I think the number of Vietnamese refugees taken in. I am not sure of exact numbers.
Good Morning Christy and Firedogs,
Molly,
although thoughtful and thought out most of what you suggested will never come to pass -
the educating, doctoring, & engineering class has fled at the rate of 50,000 a month
the invasion had everything to do with Iraqi’s killing Iraqis (and many now do so with funding from The Kingdom) it wasn’t as simple as our removing ‘glue’ (Hussein) that kept it all together – everyday Iraqis are now subjected to an unprecedented form of segregation that was not present in the tribal, pre-Saddam era
as for Refugees – to date the U.S. has granted asylum to less than 5000 –
and when those helicopters lifted off the embassy roof in Saigon, we didn’t have to trouble our beautiful minds with the estimated 100,000 ‘contractors’ to locate and airlift (many of whom now are mere indentured servants – thanks to our friends the Kuwaitis and other emirates)
the link from John Casper above hints at a serious problem with supply lines – something the Gillard’s, Juan Coles, and Scarecrow’s sadly predicted – (let’s not forget how many times we blew up bridges mid whack-a-mole)- as much as we demand troops home now -I absolutely dread the thought of how badly it would be executed under the current regime
Wigwam @ 59
No more blood for oil?
selise @ 48
On further consideration, I think WE are under occupation as well, here in the U.S.
We need to see ourselves as the insurgents; we talk about ourselves being an insurgency, but we don’t actually SEE ourselves as the residents of an occupied nation revolting against an occupying force. Hell, we are just now beginning to come to terms with the fact that we who want out of Iraq are a majority; last week’s vote made it clear that not all of us got that message.
Perhaps we need to think of removing the key members of the administration through political and legal means as a method by which we begin to end the occupation. Until we are not in a state of occupation, how can we liberate anybody else?
A f*cked up withdrawal from Iraq will happen if we do not find a way to end a f*cked up occupation here or a f*cked up withdrawal here as well. Between now and the Fourth of July, we should impeach Alberto Gonzales, seat a new USAG and demand a special prosecutor to investigate Bush on domestic spying; thus begins the end of the occupation.
Christy and the other contributors at FDL, thank you for your untiring efforts. Juan Cole’s piece should be forwarded to every Democrat in congress. Might give them some spine.
I’m pretty sure ‘White Rabbit’ was one of the first 45rpms I purchased about a zillion years ago.
Rayne @ 64
Yeah, impeach Alberto Gonzales. Does Monica Goodling have any more appearances scheduled? If we can get the Judicial Committee to question her in a sustained way instead of the crappy 5min at a time joke they’ve been doing, maybe we can get facts out of her.
mui @ 61
conservative, in that 100,000 is the low end estimate.
cbl @ 62
cbl, I confess I am scratching my head. Link perhaps?
And I think refugees in neighboring countries should be our responsibility (refugees>naturalization in the U.S., free college, welfare programs, etc. Ted kennedy knows the score ) if we are to lessen the burden on say Jordan and other places?
N=1 @ 46
Actually the civil service types you’ll need to terminate are the executives (GS-12 and higher) that were hired after Bush usurped the Presidency.
Most of the young people hired into GS 5/7/9 slots since 2000 have no loyalty to any party — in fact, from my observation of my younger co-workers, most of the twenty to thirty-somethings don’t even bother to vote.
RevDeb @ 15
by jove I think she’s got it. Jr learned from his daddy that peaking too early is a bad thing come election time. eternal war means eternal power for Repubs since they think we wont switch horses when we are at war. simple, eh?
Hello all
Ive been reading Chris Hedges American Facists and feel that so much is being undermined in this country under the name Christian. What a scary book.
I hope there will be some kind of action in the next months. I find it hard to even be a Democrat right now.
I did take a look at Nancy Pelosis trip to the glaciers. I want so much to believe in her.
Yeah, the decisions are daunting. It’s either “get on a bus, Gus.” Or it’s “climb on a plane, Jane.” There’s “turn around the tank, Hank.” And “pack the truck, Chuck.” I wonder if they considered “load up the barge, Sarge”. But fer sher, there’s too many choices…
.
cbl @ 62
bad news:
selise @ 74
That’s outrageous. Only 69. Worse than Vietnam. We have to change that.
This idea from Steven D is what I have in mind. No more money until we are listened to. Enough participants and we will be a force also
http://www.boomantribune.com/s…..5429/3382.
A withdrawal from Iraq will be a bloody, brutal thing.
it will be ‘under fire’, for one thing…meaning rear-guard actions, which are nasty affairs.
plus, once it becomes obvious that the USers are pulling out, the insurgents may very well indulge in tactics to pressure the USer forces into paths on which their vulnerabilities will be exaggerated.
they’re already doing that in Bagdhad, by blowing bridges, etc, to channel the invaders into particular corridors in which they can be more easily attacked.
yeah, it’s gonna be a blood-bath…
.
mui @ 75
So who’s handling the applications for asylum…
Immigration judges?
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 77
Did you read where food supplies arent being delivered? I dont have a link.
RevDeb @ 15
“When fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in the American flag and carrying a cross.” Sinclair Lewis
NPR -
“The White House plans to announce a replacement of Paul Wolfowitz later this week.”
mui – will do my best to find you one of the links I’ve used in the past for that number
b/c ultimately all are contracted through DoD, they play games with the numbers but will cop to the 100k figure
would be willing to bet the contractor numbers were well below 5k in Vietnam – they were primarily weapon systems support – back then the US military handled all it’s own logistics
I can’t believe no one’s caught this nitlet in 70-plus comments, and you should pls pardon my pedantry, :) but in the base post,
“In fact, polls show Americans do not disagree, and that leaving — not winning — is their main goal.”
Should imho read
“In fact, polls show Americans do not agree, and that leaving — not winning — is their main goal.”
Otherwise, the usual outstanding thought, CHS. HTH :)
————————————————————————
‘PupMap (627 ppl!), Chat, Calendar, Timeline (Click here or on my .SIG above)
noen @ 81
Commissar Goodling.. if she’s qualified to run the Justice Dept, she’s qualified to run the World Bank
Huey P. Long, a man who knew from fascism, expressed similar sentiments at about the tame time…
SOS at 83—
That’s not Christy speaking there, it’s the quote from the AP.
Rayne @ 78
I think there are some immigration judges that must be pretty decent still. But if you ever saw a PBS documentary on the INS, it will make your blood boil. INS even during the Clinton administration seems to have a culture of disrespect toward asylum seekers. I was watching with a friend of mine who’s Chinese and the interviewers acted like it was an impossibilty that Chinese police would bound a person to a bed with anything that will do, and that person escaped by jumping out of the jail window. It happens. They don’t know China and the desperation that occurs. The documentary showed that these interviewers have a very, very limited idea of what goes in other countries. They were snide, rude and disrespectful, and overall heartless and incompetent.
And then there’s Monika’s admission of screening DoJ in area of immigration.
Even ABC’s TheNote (now 100% Halperin-free!) has noted Bush’s increasing isolation, which he’s trying to counter by (among other things) holding official talks with Iran instead of simply bashing the Iranians:
But of course, the need for GOP appeasement “balance” rears its head, so ABC also approvingly cites Bob Shrum’s dissing guys who won’t hire me any more people like John Edwards. Dang, I was liking Edwards before — now I REALLY like him.
What makes my blood boil is that bushco has never let up on trying to make the world “believe 6 impossible things before breakfast” every day for 6 long years or as junior himself said, probably unintentionally, “catapult the propaganda”.
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 77
The big irony is that the Sunnis are the ones doing most of the attacks on us — the Shiites are largely leaving us alone. (But if we attack Iran, we can forget about the Shiites leaving us alone.)
Instead of beating up on al-Sadr, we should be making nice to him so at least his people won’t be attacking us on the way out.
Excellent post, as usual.
So many worthwhile comments- thanks to all.
Bin Laden’s fatwah of 1996 (referred to in Armed Madhouse and can be googled) described a banana republic which was the middle east. In 1996 the US was eons aways from such a picture, but now, hardly different. Also, the things Bin Laden wanted have mostly been accomplished by – get this- Bush! Removal of US bases from Saudi Arabia, depose Husein (because to BL, he was a secularist, not truly muslim). It’s the oil. If we take the oil, well, it will be only provocative. I’d rather pay more for gas than steal it from others (as we’ve been doing for decades).
Humbly, Suz
cbl @ 82
Hmm, I’m not sure about that. PAE, Pacific Architects & Engineers had a pretty large contingent. From wikipedia
snowbird42 @ 79
Juan Cole mentioned that last week — it’s all but impossible to truck stuff into the Green Zone now. Everything has to be brought in by air. GZ residents have been put on notice not to expect fresh salads on their luncheon menus anytime soon.
egregious @ 86
Mea culpa, should have read more closely. Howsomever :) that’s what (sic) is for… just to show “hey that was an error right there in what I’m quoting, it ain’t my fault!” But enough pedantry. My background-color perception needs an overhaul I spoze. Tnx egregious for correcting the record. Now back to our conversation now in progress… *grinz*
————————————————————————
‘PupMap (627 people!), Chat, Calendar, Timeline (Click here or on my .SIG above)
Also
Following the death of Herman Brown, Halliburton acquired Brown & Root in December 1962. According to Dan Briody, who wrote a book on the subject, the company became part of a consortium of four companies that built about eighty-five per cent of the infrastructure needed by the Army during the Vietnam War. At the height of the war protesting of the 1960s, Brown & Root was derided as “Burn & Loot” by protesters.
S.O.S. from MA @ 83
I checked the original, and it clearly says: “… do not disagree …” I think that the double negation was very much intended, i.e., the point is that Americans agree that getting out is the main goal.
SOS at 83 — The AP reporter was trying to say that, despite attempts to imply otherwise by the Bush PR crew, that the vast majority of Americans are not in disagreement on these issues — that there is, in fact, a majority viewpoint overall that Bush’s policies are failures and that they are hurting this country. The real question is how to get out of them at this point — and the person who comes up with a viable, implementable solution? This is something that will likely reap a lot of political benefit for that person. I don’t think the AP made an error, and if you read the whole of the article, you’ll see what I mean.
yeppers – instead we invite his rival to the WH – you know, the guy who took Iran’s side in the Iraq-Iran war
oh and let’s not forget Madame Ferragamo would be at the helm of any such diplomatic or political pursuits
I don’t like the sound of this. Food supplies aren’t getting in to the Green Zone?
So the folks in the Embassy don’t get salad — but are our troops being fed?
raven @ 92
Also don’t forget the airlift wasn’t just about contractors. There was the government, personnel in the the S. Vietnamese military, and various other persons that had worked years in years with the French, the U.S. etc. Plus girlfriends I imagine. I have that book by the ex-CIA analyst Raven suggested. It might be worth a read for all of us now. Maybe he can provide a link.
Bringsamen at 99 — I believe Gilliard called this as a potential enormous problem ages ago (I’ll see if I can scrounge up a link, but it was a fantastic post on logistics difficulties with the limited roads in and out of Baghdad and Iraq, and our limited capability to defend them adequately with too few troops for the job. Very frightening possibilities indeed. Larry Johnson and Pat Lang have been doing a lot of writing on this the last week or so.
Also, gang, there is a fresh thread if you want one.
Excellent comment PW at 7:09. Joe Wilson made this precise point at the lake back in December. We may well have to fight our way out.
My guess is that the US military’s bludgeoning of al-Sadr is to placate the Saudi ruling family. IMVHO Iraq and the Middle East were much better off with Saddam. Saudi’s won’t tolerate Shia control of Iraq. Iran won’t tolerate reassertion of Sunnis control. As Swopa said so eloquently more than a year ago, “good luck negotiating that.
Bonus is that in return for $270,000,00 per day (more after the surge), every day we stay makes Iran and Russia more dominant in the region.
mui @ 100
Also don’t forget the airlift wasn’t just about contractors. There was the government, personnel in the the S. Vietnamese military, and various other persons that had worked years in years with the French, the U.S. etc. Plus girlfriends I imagine. I have that book by the ex-CIA analyst Raven suggested. It might be worth a read for all of us now. Maybe he can provide a link.
Indecent Interval Frank Snepp
Good Morning Christy.
It’s so wonderful to have you back.
The Lake is always cool and refreshing, but it’s not the same without you.
That being said, please feel free to “stand up to [your] public opinion” and see to it you get your sleep and play time on a regular basis. We want to savor everything you say. We also want you happy and healthy.
Say, while we’re at it, … how’re that Peanut and Mr. Redd doin’?
Like it or not, you guys are a treasured little domestic package in our hearts – part ‘a the family. ;->
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 85
According to this page of the Wikipedia, Long’s quote is: “When fascism comes to America , it will come in the name of anti-fascism.”
Adie at 104 — We’re all good here. Vacation was lovely, but it is always good to be home. :)
Thanks, Christy!
I used to play war games and other sorts of role-playing games, and I knew logistics was going to be a bear if the population turned against us. So when you pointed us to an article saying there were food supply troubles it immediately raised red flags in my mind.
How do you think Joe Six-Pack is going to react if the troops can’t get food or ammo?
mui @ 100
Also don’t forget the airlift wasn’t just about contractors. There was the government, personnel in the the S. Vietnamese military, and various other persons that had worked years in years with the French, the U.S. etc. Plus girlfriends I imagine. I have that book by the ex-CIA analyst Raven suggested. It might be worth a read for all of us now. Maybe he can provide a link.
Axe and ye shall. . .
Frank Snepp
Mandrake @ 58
Hi, Mandrake -
Will probably get EPU’d but what a perfect piece of visual snark. Thank you!
raven -
thank you very much for the PA&E link – my bad
I worked for one of 2 airlines contracted to airlift out of Saigon – I started with them 3 years after the fall. Many of the folks I worked with were there and there were two distinct phases of ops 1. contractors and dependents along with various US support personnel – scheduled flights, meals etc. (I did many of these myself – Iran, Mogadishu, Congo, etc) IOW some planning was involved. phase 2 was the chaotic and tragic baby lifts we all remember
gaia only knows what Team Bloodlust will do when the time comes
noen @ 81
…but you will notice that comes after he got his “bonus”
Phoenix Woman @ 88
That’s not fair; Shrum writes the best concession speeches of any political consultant in the business.
Because I write about professional nursing issues, I tried to find links to American nurses serving in FOBs and Iraqi nurses. The post I wrote chronicles the erosion and failure of Iraqi healthcare and its professional nurses. Not a single mention via the Google for Iraqi nurses in 2007. From 2003 to 2006, there are stories which begin with hope and reconstruction/education efforts, then decline rapidly into unsafe infrastructure, women’s (and therefore nurses’) oppression, and finally – nothing.
There are about four million Iraqi refugees – who are overwhelming many countries where they are appearing. However, they aren’t overwhelming the US. The US has closed the doors except to accommodate a PR trickle.
And to link back to US healthcare, I wrote a post about over capacity situations in the nation’s emergency departments. In case of a disaster, You are out of luck – there’s nowhere to put you. That is, if you even make to an emergency department – funding for first responders (EMS, fire, police, national guard, etc.) is just a drop in the homeland security budget. Training, if any, for the first responders is next to nothing, and they do not have the equipment and supplies they need to handle large numbers of victims, anyway.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 97
I take your (and the AP article’s) point, I believe. Howcum then the AP writer didn’t say
? After all, the AP writer uses the more salient conjunction “but” elsewhere in that quote, and to better (and imho truer) effect than wimpy old “and.” At any rate, that particular sentence bollixed up my head, and I finally (with your help) can propose a theory as to why.
Yikes, lotsa verbiage about a nit (but at least (I think) we’re done, no?)
… and now it’d be good, imho, to return to our substantive conversation, now in progress… :)
————————————————————————
‘PupMap (628 people!), Chat, Calendar, Timeline (Click here or on my .SIG above)
cbl @ 110
I knew a nurse that survived the babylift crash.
cbl @ 110
As Snepp points out, the real tragedy in the “airlift” is that the barges sitting on the Saigon River went unused because we fucked it up.
TiredFed @ 71
Oh RevDeb.. You’ve caught that “ick” I had yesterday… It helped me a little to go more than a little nuts in yesterday’s threads. I wish you had that luxury.
And TiredFed, your moniker speaks volumes.
It helped me a LOT to read the many thoughtful, savvy and supportive comments pouring through the Lake’s toobz.
So, giving back a little, for starters…
{{{{{RevDeb}}}}}
{{{{{TiredFed}}}}}
.we.will.never.give.up.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 106
THANKS! Wonderful to hear! ;->
[Mod: Please close your quote with [/blockquote] with the all important “/” thanks]
N-1 @ 113:
I was on a panel on “Coming Crises” at Marcon this past weekend. One of the things I told folks when the topic of Avian Flu came up was:
“Don’t count on the government to be there. Make sure you lay in your own supplies. No one is doing adequate planning for this.”
I still don’t think anyone grasps just how bad a pandemic will be.
(I also told them for other sorts of disasters they absolutely should have at least 3 day’s supply of food and water, and a plan of where to go if they have to evacuate.)
raven @ 116
That book is a great acquisition. I’ve only read parts. As I might have said before, as a kid, I got vivid descriptions of people hanging off an airplane, etc. ,etc. destined for a refugee camp in S. Korea from a very, very close Vietnamese family friend who was on the plane.
raven @ 119
Raven, and others, please be kind to your moderators and check before you submit. Thank you.
raven @ 119
OMG. That’s unbelievably sad. I’d hope she is wrong about the people. To me, it seems more as if rover has been all too successful in his dastardly, slick schemes aimed at making everyone feel hopeless and helpless to do anything other than support the administration’s devious plans.
Those of us who have NOT yet been de-fanged must keep going somehow. We just MUST.
Calling Frank Snepp:
Props to Christy and many commenters for pointing out again the by now surreal context for discussion of the war. Indeed, official rhetoric has consistently emphasized there would be no end until we “win”–that the current junta of neocons would not make the same mistake as Viet Nam and withdraw before “winning”–without ever defining what the “mission” that must be completed is, the “Mission Accomplished” production notwithstanding.
What would define “winning”? Islamic genocide? Christian conquest of the Middle East? The Second Coming of Christ? Permanent occupation of a subdued and devastated Iraq after gaining “legal” control of their oil?
As several have pointed out above, the “war” is a means of shattering the remants of the constitutionally constructed democracy. FEMA? Broken. National Guard? Broken. Department of Justice? Broken. Checks and balances? Broken. Bill of Rights? Broken. Watchdog press? Broken. U.S. Treasury? Broke and broken.
I apologize for my despair but fear the long night will only get longer.
HotFlash @ 24
Yep. It’s dormouse.
Brisingamen @ 120
Yes – absolutely. FYI, there is a short term HHS sponsored pandemic flu preparedness blog up and running. Finally, the American Nurses Association is participating in some planning.
People literally will not know what hit them.
so good to have you back, Christy.
dipper at 128 — Thanks much. As I’ve said, vacation was wonderful — and I really didn’t know how much I needed one until we were about three days into it. Mr. ReddHedd and i were attending a conference for what I thought was only going to be three or four days and he surprised me with a second trip for our anniversary. First trip we have taken without The Peanut, and it was both wonderful and really hard on momma in some ways. But it is lovely to be home. :)
Mr. ReddHedd must be the best. You need those wonderful surprises once in a while.
Brisingamen @ 107
I imagine that the neocons will blame it on the Democrats.
Snarky McAngus 125
Please don’t feel you must apologize for feeling dispair.
Checking up thru comments on practically any thread, I think you’ll hear a lot of us whistling in the dark.
Just don’t give up, and we won’t either. Deal?
And for heavens sake don’t be shy about opening up and leaning on the strength of the community here.
The Lake’s a good place to be in hard times and good. ;->
thanks to all of you from an old grandmother–i really enjoy you everyday–it’s so very nice to see your opinions put into prose and comic relief! Keep up the goooooood work!!!