A few days ago, Joss Whedon had a post that has haunted me ever since I read it after I got back from vacation. The post was initially about a horrifying video that had been taken of a young woman in Iraq being beaten to death by her family for daring to fall in love with a boy outside her sect. (WARNING: If you do click on the video link in Joss' post or the one in Digby's, it is very graphic, violent and disturbing.) But it went beyond the video to what it means that someone thought this deadly beating would be entertainment, and then takes it several steps beyond even there:
I try to think how we got here. The theory I developed in college (shared by many I’m sure) is one I have yet to beat: Womb Envy. Biology: women are generally smaller and weaker than men. But they’re also much tougher. Put simply, men are strong enough to overpower a woman and propagate. Women are tough enough to have and nurture children, with or without the aid of a man. Oh, and they’ve also got the equipment to do that, to be part of the life cycle, to create and bond in a way no man ever really will. Somewhere a long time ago a bunch of men got together and said, “If all we do is hunt and gather, let’s make hunting and gathering the awesomest achievement, and let’s make childbirth kinda weak and shameful.” It’s a rather silly simplification, but I believe on a mass, unconscious level, it’s entirely true. How else to explain the fact that cultures who would die to eradicate each other have always agreed on one issue? That every popular religion puts restrictions on women’s behavior that are practically untenable? That the act of being a free, attractive, self-assertive woman is punishable by torture and death? In the case of this upcoming torture-porn, fictional. In the case of Dua Khalil, mundanely, unthinkably real. And both available for your viewing pleasure….
Now those of you who frequent this site are, in my wildly biased opinion, fairly evolved. You may hear nothing new here. You may be way ahead of me. But I can’t contain my despair, for Dua Khalil, for humanity, for the world we’re shaping. Those of you who have followed the link I set up know that it doesn’t bring you to a video of a murder. It brings you to a place of sanity, of people who have never stopped asking the question of what is wrong with this world and have set about trying to change the answer. Because it’s no longer enough to be a decent person. It’s no longer enough to shake our heads and make concerned grimaces at the news. True enlightened activism is the only thing that can save humanity from itself. I’ve always had a bent towards apocalyptic fiction, and I’m beginning to understand why. I look and I see the earth in flames. Her face was nothing but red.
All I ask is this: Do something. Try something. Speaking out, showing up, writing a letter, a check, a strongly worded e-mail. Pick a cause – there are few unworthy ones….
A number of other blogs have picked up the discussion on this, but it was this post from Digby which hit the issue squarely for me:
I think what is most amazing to me is that this doesn't take place in some tent in the middle of the desert or a stone hut. These people are not dressed in tribal garb — they are wearing jeans and t-shirts and the whole thing takes place in a street in what appears to be a modern town. It isn't the Moqtada al Sadr brigade or Al Qaeda extremists —it's not part of the civil war although according to the article, many Iraqis are trying to rationalize it as such. This is nothing but barbaric patriarchal violence perpetrated by our alleged allies, the Kurds, toward a teen-age girl…There are a lot of manifestations of this particular human organizational style, some much more sophisticated and stylized. The violence becomes more ritualized and the humiliation takes other forms but underneath it all, the same impulse to dominate drives a fair number of people of all cultures. It's just a matter of degree.
This is the reason why it's so important to preserve our secular, reason-based constitution and fight against this horror of government endorsed torture and indefinite imprisonment. It is a very, very thin line between civilization and barbarism and every step we take away from the rule of law is a step toward becoming that primitive mob of killers. After all, I'm sure they felt justified too. (emphasis mine)
I stumbled across this piece in the WaPo, regarding some pushback in Saudi Arabia, by some women who have found a way to express themselves as individuals without incurring the wrath of the ever-patrolling religious police. (Yes, I did say Saudi Arabia and religious police. Where have you been?) I think this is brilliant.
"You cannot separate what is happening with the abaya from other issues related to women, including women's appearance in the workforce and having more say in their affairs," said Saad al-Sowayan, a professor of folklore and anthropology at King Saud University in Riyadh, the capital.Until recently, the abaya was a plain black robe that women kept by the door and wore like a coat over their clothes when they left the house.
Today, abayas are often stylish, personalized wraps that women enjoy being seen in, said Thana Addas, an abaya designer. Addas's creations, many made with material from international fashion houses such as Roberto Cavalli, Burberry and Fendi and decorated with Swarovski crystals, can sell for more than $1,000….
One of the things the article references is that there has been a renewed questioning of the Wahhabi sect of Islam in the wake of 9/11 among a number of classes in Saudi Arabia, because so many of the hijackers came from the Kingdom. The result has been that a number of younger women have begun to push the boundaries a bit and find a way to express their inner selves with their outer garments. This is really quite ingenious, I think, but I'd love to hear the opinions of some of our readers who have lived in the Middle East on what opening this particular public door might mean. (And I'm remembering the Karen Hughes "listening tour" offensive — and I do mean offensive — and am shaking my head all over again.)
Saudi women have always been notoriously expressive behind closed doors in terms of clothing and assertiveness, at least in the upper classes, but this appears to be filtering down through the various economic strata. See, for example, this piece in the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, wherein young Saudis attempt to get around the dating restrictions via bluetooth technology and texting at coffee shops based on a glimpse of ankle and the technological means of flirting. No matter the restrictions placed from the outside, somehow human nature finds a way, I suppose.
As with any religious, political or philosophical text, the belief may be used to lift up an individual and empower them, or to gain power for one's self by trying to put those same people under the thumb of an ordering system that one controls from above. The tension between these is the fight in which we are all engaged on a daily basis: what are the terms of our social contract and, once those are realized, do they enable growth and/or forward motion or do they chafe as they pull us backward and away from individual freedom? For women, especially, and not just in Muslim cultures, those questions are raised all too frequently, as Whedon and Digby both discuss. It is often a few steps forward and then a few steps back, as women in Iran and Afghanistan, and here in the US of A, can all attest. We've all read the stories about women teaching other women in secret in Afghanistan in the Taliban days and even secreting banned books in any number of cultures so that they can learn. I always ask myself when I read these whether I would have the courage to do the same in the face of the potential penalties to myself and my family, and the answer always comes back that I'm not sure — I'd like to hope so, but how can you know?
The key, I suppose, for all of us individually is the ever-evolving struggle. And, in that, the modernization of the abayas in Saudi Arabia is a step that I applaud. Individuality is something to celebrate. So, in the name of our sisters in the Kingdom today, and in memory of Dua Khalil, take a little time to express yourself. Because the freedom to do so should never, ever be taken for granted.
(Photo of abaya and phone bling via happylovesme.)
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hi there!
Morning Tommy Yum. :)
Hey Christy.
Can’t watch the stoning video-just won’t do it.
quatro
Kevster at 3 — I only made it through about a minute. And I’ve seen enough autopsy photos in my day fro violent acts…and I really barely made it that long. That this was intended to be entertaining? Beyond disgusting. Sometimes I wonder how far beyond barbarism we will ever, ever get.
Early societies were based “Mother Earth”, women are the source of life. Ancient Crete Minoan’s were a matriarchal. Navajo Nation is also matriarchal.
It was that mystery of life, that they could not understand it or control it. That is the whole of it.
Christy @5:
Barbarism of various kinds is seemingly part of the human condition and we know many many examples of it. All the more reason for civilized societies to reign in violent impulses. Religious extremism gets blamed for a lot of this violence but it’s my view that religion is a cover for pre-existent violent tendencies. Religious leaders can help tremendously, however, by removing the religious excuse for violence and condemning it wholeheartedly.
Interesting bit about Saudi women. The human spirit always finds a way..
Whedon’s brilliant… but I have to disagree with his use of the word “we” throughout the piece… most human beings are decent and couldn’t conceive of doing what those men did to that girl… it’s part local culture (and I use that term loosely) and part religion/superstition/xenophobia (they’re all the same as far as I’m concerned) that led them to undertake such a sick act… sexism exists throughout the world, but in both directions… interesting, female “circumcision” comes from basically the same spiritual background… what is it with the sex and violence preoccupation of some?
Kevster at 7 — That was what I found so particularly brilliant about the shift in abayas. There is an application of the letter of the law, but bending it to individual spirit – and I just loved that.
I couldn’t watch it either. Hard enough to even read the description.
I used to think that, either because of age or circumstance, that I was getting overly sensitive to violent entertainment. Now I believe that my response is the correct one.
Our culture has, for generations, inoculated us against a rational response to brutality masquerading as entertainment. Little by little, we’ve been desensitized, and that numbness is accompanied by increasing doses of violent, degrading images and ideas.
I had my own awful epiphany when watching Pulp Fiction. People laughed at the scene where a man’s brains are accidently blown out in the back of a car. I felt like I’d been pushed through a mirror (to borrow from CHS’s recent imagery) and was relegated to cultural observer status.
This is pretty silly:
A better approach would be the socio-biological point of view. Males and female have different and competing reproductive strategies. Males, ideally, want to maximize their offspring, females to maximize the success of the children they have. The resources to accomplish these competing demands are limited. Much of civilization can be seen as the working out of these two competing interests.
On Truthout’s site this morning:
Repairing the Damage Done
I really like the way that the Saudi women have taken something that is supposed to oppress them and turn it into fashion. Nothing like taking the rules and using them to piss of the people who made the rules. Wonderful! Fabulous! Awesome!
Wow, very powerful, and very true. Great find, Christy.
lisadawn at 12 — Exactly — I found that sort of cheeky in your face use of the rule so fun, and so subversive at the same time. Truly, it is a brilliant way to make a statement about yourself in that context.
lisadawn82 @ 13
Around where I live we have a lot of Somali people. I really love the fabrics, they’re just beautiful. Rich, vibrant colors and delicate patterns. It’s a visual feast whenever I take the bus to go somewhere.
I am far too depressed already having just given up my registration in the Dem. party. That’s two Dem. defectors from this household, and it’s taking every ounce of my chi to stay centered, and not allow my consciousness to sink to the depths of vile disgust.
Even if it weren’t such an all time low of lows in this bogus democracy, I still would not be able to watch this……….I’ve already heard enough about it to know it would be planted in my brain, and it’s all I can do to numb my way through the day as it is.
Your post was timely and very important. How many woman out there have had the exact same musings, I wonder. I have since I was about four years old.
reading about Dua Khalil (i haven’t watched the video – and don’t intend to) immediately brought to my mind the impuse, in our own culture, to condemn women to death (from botched abortions) by making safe abortions illegal.
does anyone else see an analogy here?
The problem isn’t with women, it’s with men. Look at the incarceration ratios. Look at the way in which we casually accept violence from males. And of course celebrate it in the media.
Our culture is sick. It accepts from males a level of violence that any healthy culture would find intolerable. And when men aren’t committing violence, they are abandoning their partners and children.
We need to challenge the manner in which we raise and nurture men and boys. We need to overcome that most self-righteous statement, “It’s MY family, mind your own business.” We need to stop accepting and celebrating violence.
I realize Whedon’s “What’s wrong with women” was rhetorical – there’s nothing wrong with women, of course. The problem is with men: most men are NOT men, they are overgrown testosterone-poisoned boys, boys who were abused and emotionally neglected as children. Those man/boys need healing, and we need to start focusing on raising the next generation of boys with love and care, and to reject violence.
katymine @ 6
I’m glad you brought that up. Our hunting/gathering ancestors worshipped the moon (the goddess) by which they hunted. I think when agrarian societies became more commonplace, they switched to the sun and to a male figure as the source of power. Although goddesses, in one form or another, still existed, their stature was diminished. I’ve never understood exactly why, however. That’s for the anthropologists to explain. Anyone here who has more information, I’d love to hear what you have to say. Express yourself!
Pach at 14 — I found the Whedon piece the day I got home from vacation, along with the Digby discussion of the same issue a day or so later. But I’ve been struggling to find a voice on the issue the past few days even as it was pushing me to be written. I spotted the Saudi story yesterday evening and something clicked. I’m glad you liked it.
selise @ 18
Oh of course. It’s all about power and control. Some men fear the power that women have to give birth so they seek to control that.
It’s always about power.
Speaking of expressing yourself…From The New Yorker: Many Republicans no longer interested in Rove’s theories.
Albatross at 19 — Be careful with that. I happen to be married to a man that does not fit that description, not by a long shot. We should not stereotype this as an “all men versus all women” issue, because it is not. What it is to me is an empowerment versus disempowerment issue — it just manifests itself in this particular context with women. That isn’t to say that women don’t have to deal with a lot of issues simply because of gender — we do — but I don’t think stereotyping all men is any better than demeaning all women simply because of their gender, and I do think we need to be careful of that. I tried to be careful of it in writing this piece — because I happen to be married to a man who is not only mindful but also very empowering to those around him, regardless of gender, and that needs to be celebrated wherever and in whomever we find it.
Education and awareness about the oppression of women and others is critical for the evolution of all humankind. Beating and killing women due to the violation of the standards is outrageous and criminal.
Turning women into sex objects in the states ( more of this the last 15 years than when I was young) is also a very serious form of oppression and manipulation. Young women in the U.s. are especially under a great deal of pressure from the marketing industry.
Education education..Unite Unite…Change
USA Today’s sobering account:
Taxpayers on the hook for $59 trillion
If the United States government prepared a balance sheet in accordance with generally accepted accounting principles for governmental entities, I wonder what amount of assets (stated at cost) would appear on it.
Mandrake @ 20
Try reading The Chalice and the Blade or any of Gimbutas’ works. Note, not all anthropologists agree with their theories.
Jesus spent a lot of energy railing against divorce. Men could “marry” as many women as they wished and dispose of them at will- leaving humans who had no accepted way to fend for themselves penniless.
Christianity over the years has evolved- the prohibitions against loaning money at interest that was much heralded in Shakespeare’s “The Merchant of Venice” went away- someone found a way to get around the rule and capitalism was born.
Many have been saying that Islam is in need of an overhaul- and that appears to be true- of course they have their “fundamentalists” who will resist any change with violence if necessary- so it won’t be easy- but it IS necessary.
Perhaps there is a way to offer support to the portions of the faithful who are looking for a better way.
kathleen at 25 — There is a sobering cautionary tale about that very issue in today’s WaPo sports section, about a high school pole vaulter who happens to be an attractive girl, and who is now being subjected to a lot of unwanted attention because of a wave of internet postings about her — completely based on a photo taken at a track meet.
it is important to note this young woman was Yazidi a pre islamic sect/tribe. not that there aren’t honor killings and other forms of oppression against women in islamic cultures -(and others for that matter – don’t even start reading about India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh) but read the 1 page wiki about her people – also recall 23 Yazidi men were executed on a bus in March and many believe it was in retribution for her murder
Yazidi – wiki
and no to those not fully caffeinated am I in any way rationalizing her brutal, unwarranted death
As many people have noted over the years, civilization has always been a thin veneer. It seems to grow even thiner as the number of people in a crowd grows. I’ve wondered at times if it tied up with pheromones and is hardwired into our biology.
Albatross @ 19
i’m gonna disagree here… too many confounding factors to make that conclusion.
usually, when there is an institutionalized power hierarchy, we’re (almost?) all suspectable to the moral corruption. i’m thinking, not just of the stanford prison experiment (all young men), but also experments like milgram’s – i don’t think there was a difference between men and women (am i wrong on that? need to do more reading).
anyway, rather than blaming whole groups of people, i’d rather work on the systemic cultural issues.
p.s. amazing post, christy. you make it hard to pull myself away… but i gotta get some stuff done today!
I don’t buy Whedon’s theory, womb envy etc.. I do believe this idea of debasement of human life, our desensitization towards violence, the bleed-over into entertainment, etc..
But I’d hate to think that such an idea (that of a wholesale war against the female sex, being waged by the male sex) would ever take hold. We’re in sad shape if it does.
A more accurate description of the problem, in my opinion, is that the world is full of a$$holes & full of the sh*t they drop.
[didn’t watch the subject video, and won’t. My way of not being part of it in any way, shape or form.]
Nothing in the world is as dangerous as a male who feels powerless. Whether it’s a primitive response to outsize danger or a testosterone deficit, I couldn’t say. But from domestic abuse to horrific scenes like this video to the war in Iraq (started by a president who was a failure before he took office) the common thread seems to me to be a violent response, usually visited on someone even less powerful, from males who feel profoundly inadequate. I’d venture to guess that religion amplifies the response because it offers both the protection and reinforcement of a large group of the like-minded.
cbl — I meant to note that a bit more clearly in my piece. Thanks much for the clarification for everyone.
Ahh but the power of the human spirit though.
Never underestimate it.
Oppression brings out an individuals determination and creativity.The cloaks are an excellent example.
There are always nonconformists in the herd somewhere, I know I’m one.
*G*
I happen to be married to a man who is not only mindful but also very empowering to those around him, regardless of gender, and that needs to be celebrated wherever and in whomever we find it.
It is not all that uncommon in our culture. Although there is much work left to be done, in the western world we have come a long way.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 24
That’s because you are both k-selectors.
The issue has it’s roots in the competing needs of males vs females. The trunk and branches are social and cultural, but the root is biology. In the long run the Y chromosome will probably disappear anyway.
Christy – We recived some additional info on Du’a’s murder from Joanne Peyton of the Campaign to Stop Honor Killing in the comments to my post which ran while you were away: Get the Story Right There’s also info there on the Campaign and ways people can help – as well as some very good analysis of honor killings from several women who are very involved in the fight – and a great discussion amongst our readers that night of culture and religion.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 24
Well, insofar as I am a married man myself, and would likely be described by my spouse as you have described yours, certainly there are exceptions. But look at the numbers: more than ten men in prison for every woman. That indicates a severe problem with how this culture raises men that cannot be explained by biological mythology or any other means short of this: men like your husband and me are the very rare exceptions, emerging despite – instead of due to – our upbringings.
No, I’m sorry – I’m not fronting a sterotype, I’m looking at statistics and outcomes: the way we raise men in this country is broken, as are most of the men. It is a tribute to the innate decency of all humans that the men who are the product of this miserable, destructive culture mostly stew in their own pain and confusion and do not unleash violence on those around them.
The crushing ignorance, especially here in America is very demoralizing.
At a time not long after America had the moral imperative to lead the way towards a better world, the nation took up the sword and the cross and it’s been downhill ever since.
We’ve helped uncork the lid for fanatics and fascists worldwide.
Seeing how both Cindy Sheehan and Andrew Bacevich are both so shattered after losing their children and then losing their faith in America is a strong lesson.
America, as Robert DeNiro would say: “You blew it!”
-GSD
Christy Hardin Smith @ 24
This is a great point. Let us not forget that many, many women also act as enablers to the male stereotypes. Southern women, esp. (Christy, you being an exception, of course!), I think, are afraid to speak their minds for fear of being seen as too assertive and thus not good “marriage material.”
However, I believe men are changing and beginning to appreciate more and more a woman who is confident in her identity and her convictions. It is wildly attractive to men who are secure in their own self-image.
Women in American society share a responsibility to stop undermining each other and to support each other in the efforts to improve our men by expecting, not necessarily demanding, respect. If a man is worthwhile, he will do his best to earn that respect.
Goodness gracious, I love men! As many times as I’ve been hurt by them, I still have not given up on them. And all the pain I have suffered in relationships has been as much my own doing as theirs, because I did not know how to be in control.
In that society, she is seen as the one who took the steps away from the rule of law and they were fulfilling the law. That’s an element that shouldn’t be ignored.
Abiding by the rule of law only prevents a slide into becoming a mob, sadists, fear and hate mongers, etc. when the law has not been perverted. That is, in the end, what has been so demoralizing – in every sense of that word – about the Bush Department of Justice and the Republicans AND Democrats in Congress.
They have chosen to pervert the law so that it can be used a as a weapon supporting secret detentions, beatings, threats, intimidation, coercion, sexual assaults, ritualized group beatings like those used to kill Dilawar, and back-slapping conspiracies to kidnap and torture.
Abiding to the rule of law is not a very sacred or worthwhile task when that law has been degraded into a mechanism of abuse. That’s the insidious evil – bootstraping onto a good person’s belief in adherence to the law (or to the orders of a superior) in order to enlist them into depravity.
And every time we excuse that misuse of law and power, bc this person is a “good progressive” or this person is “really a fine prosecutor” or this person is “one of the good guys” – every time you make that excuse, you choose to become part of the mob.
oldgold – I happened to be spending a lot of time in Jeddah – some bedouin offered the station rep 75 camels for me (hey the going rate was 50!)we were not veiled but were covered up, and always had to ride in the back of a pick up b/c we weren’t related to the driver . . .at the same time the US was debating the ERA – although young and unseasoned, I found it an interesting juxtaposition :)
Women couldn’t own property in 1st century Israel. My understanding is that the anti-divorce position in first century Judaism was because divorcing a woman forced her into prostitution.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 24
Ooooohh Thanks for picking up on that, Christy.
Beautifully expressed!
I, too, am very fortunate, much as you are.
One of my continuing struggles my whole adult life has been to try to urge folks NOT to make blanket judgements of ANY category of people.
I think the same prevailing sentiment is one that that makes the Lake very special. ;->
Christy Hardin Smith @ 21
Christy – your post is beautifully written, and paints a vivid picture. You certainly did find your voice.
Albatross @ 40
There is a war on ethnic minorities and the poor by way of repressive laws and economic isolation.
Pete Bogs @ 8
Being somewhat familiar with Whedon’s work, I think his use of the word “we” was intentional … and correct. No, most of “us” wouldn’t commit that crime of violence against women for that “offense”. But even ignoring for the moment hundreds of thousands of “domestic violence” incidents per year in the United States, there is in fact a general acceptance of little violences against women for all sorts of imagined offenses, even if most of those violences are “only” emotional ones.
No, as easy as it is to tut-tut and feel superior, the differences aren’t as clear as we’d like to think.
John- Quite possibly- it certainly pushed most of em into poverty as I mentioned.
noen @ 38
Hey! There’s no need to make me feel any more obsolete than I already do. *g*
Mandrake @ 20
May I recommend an insightful if infuriating text, The Alphabet vs. the Goddess by Leonard Schlain? While I cannot say that I subscribe to Schlain’s perspective, there are nuggets of value that the text sheds on the shift from matriarchal-goddess-fertility cultures to patriarchal-god-death cultures. Keep in mind as you read this text that Schlain writes from a man’s perspective; he cannot share a woman’s consciousness on what it was that was sacrificed in the shift between these cultures, whether the introduction of the alphabet presaged that shift or not.
Another text worth reading is The Geography of Thought: How Asians and Westerners Think Differently…and Why, by Richard Nisbett. (Again, keep in mind that Nisbett writes as a western man.) I was struck by the description of the differences between Asian and Western thought sounding more like the differences between women and men.
Unfortunately, we are what Chinese have called yin and yang, two parts of a whole, necessary but constantly fighting for balance. We completely separate subspecies divided along gender lines, competing for resources and rights between ourselves, instead of arriving at the conscious understanding that over the long run, both genders seek nothing more than the long term survival of the human genome. How do we begin that conversation without stopping the bloodshed first — and just how do we do that?
GSD @ 41
Sad but true. 30 % of Americans believe the Bible is literally true and nearly 50% don’t believe in evolution.
Albatross @ 40
Sorry, Albatross, I disagree. My brother and I were both badly abused as children. According to your theory, he should be an ax murderer. Instead, he’s a fine husband, a loving father and a successful businessman, not to mention a terrific brother. “The way we raise men” has less to do with this, I think, than the biology of some men and a preponderance of cultures in this world that still worship violence.
Here are some beautiful abayas.
http://www.fashionsera.com/abayas.html
rwcole @ 50
Yeah, sorry rw. It came out less varnished than I wanted.
There was a very good discussion of Du’a’s murder on Al Jazeera English’s Everywoman show this weekend with several Islamic scholars noting that honor killings are not Koranic. The consensus was that these are cultural murders based on tribal traditions which reach back to pre-Islamic days. In fact, there was an honor killing quite recently in Iraq in a Christian family.
The women on the panel discussed the tribal origins of “the need to control women’s sexuality” in broader terms as well. It was a spirited and valuable discussion – much removed from the hype style of our MSM.
Bearpaw @ 48
I don’t agree that “we” in general accept violence toward women… I believe individuals and certain sects do… if wanting to distance myself from monsters makes me come across as “superior,” so be it…
Christy Hardin Smith @ 5
imho, the key to male violence against women resides in the knowledge, held by any and every sexually active male, that any woman can take his best (sexual) shot, and be ready and willing to copulate with another male before the first one is ready to perform again; and that the ‘only’ way to prevent that is to place external limits on women’s sexuality–up to and including physical brutality and murder…
put simply, many men cannot tolerate the knowledge that they and they alone CANNOT sexually exhaust their female mates the way they themselves are exhausted by coitus…
but perhaps i’ve said too much…*lol*
The rise of monotheism pushed out the female members of the pantheon- although it is fairly clear that in early Jewish societies- there was a near universal reliance of female fertility figures.
The total absence of the female figure in Godhead for the religions “of the book” is interesting psychologically. May influence behavior in some way.
wont watch the video – i’ve seen enough violence on american shores so i have no need to view this – my god when will humans understand that violence only begets violence?
Mary @ 43 –
amen!
absolutely critical point to our understanding of our own situation…
“The crushing ignorance, especially here in America is very demoralizing.”
OK- but it isn’t americans- at least for the most part- who are engaging in these “honor killings”.
noen @ 48
Undoubtedly. So then there should be an equal but disproportionately-high number of minority men AND women in prison. Instead the population in prison is almost completely male.
Dalloway@54: And I should be an axe murderer too. The fact is your husband and I prevail despite our culture, rather than due to it. Oughtn’t we be unexceptional rather than unusual? Oughtn’t our culture encourage and protect young men such as he and I were, rather than abusing us and driving us towards violence?
Christy Hardin Smith @ 21
Very compellingly presented, Christy. I’m glad you found the right moment and way to present it. Well worth it!
Helpless Dancer @ 51
But you aren’t obsolete. The long run here is on the order of 100,000 years or longer.
This stoning was the final straw for me. No more discussion, no more educating myself re the issues. No more politicizing and I even decided who I would not vote for for president.This Iraqui culture is the reason dictators flourish. Women are property and to repress them is to show strength and control over the ultimate prayer, the ultimate human act- giving birth. Through the ages we have had witch hunts every 150 or 200 years to reiterate men’s control and to diminish the “Power” of women. Religions do this all the time, the Catholic Church being oppressor in chief. Women know their power and they know enough to apply it with velvet gloves lest they invite their own repression by men. This video is the final submission and Iraqi women knew about it and allowed it to happen. The people we are trying to democratize know nothing about which we are talking. To them, democracy is a state to be laughed at and ridiculed. After all their benevolent dictator supplied their needs. We cant even supply them with eletricity! Submission feeds the babies. That in and of itself is enough to live in a subjucated society. Democracy, to people whose culture has engrained these things,is a joke. Using it as an excuse to allow our own babies to be kidnapped or killed, is obscene. It is time to come home. If we have to fight them here- so be it. At least we will be constantly reminded of what we are protecting and of the values in which we believe. Women need to step up and stop this kind of thing. Stoning a teenager is not civilized. War is not civilized. What on earth have we become? The better question might be, what have we remained?
I would venture to say that the vast majority of men have never committed violence on a woman in their life.
The vast majority of men haven’t had a fist fight since adulthood.
It’s easy to get a little over the top when dealing with this issue.
Yep, this is my understanding too. Most 1st century religions were focussed on fertility. First century human existence was characterized by high infant mortality rates and low life expectancies for women who probably spent most of their post puberty years pregnant. Again, my guess is that the minority of 1st century women made it out of their child bearing years alive.
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 59
No, the external limits are there because he feels a need to protect his investment and to ensure that competing males do not cuckold him.
The reason that some men sometimes take violent action against women that they think are unfaithful is well documented in Othello among other places.
Grumbles – the murder of Du’a was not an “Iraqi” thing and, while I agree that we must leave Iraq, seeing this murder as emblematic of Iraqi or Islamic societies is inaccurate. My friends in Iraq were as horrified by this event as we are – and they include very religious “fundamentalist” muslims.
btw, this piece on antiwar art is fascinating. Has anyone seen this exhibit in person? Would love to know your thoughts on it, if so.
LINK
“A designer tugs at Iran’s fashion straitjacket” –Christian Science Monitor
Beautiful clothes!
I saw a still photo of this incident when it first happened… that was enough for me… this “desensitized” male has no stomach for watching the video…
Neon @ 70
Yep – It would kill men to know that another man’s kid inherited his work/stuff.
I remember having a dicussion in college about how women were still oppressed and while the guys thought that they were enlightened and didn’t feel that women were oppressed, it was so sweet, they basically fell back on the thought that if they didn’t or couldn’t control their wives then how would they be sure that their wife only had their children. One older guy just blurted out that thought and the rest of the guys seemed gobsmacked. You could tell that they were working their way through that comment and really didn’t like the answers they got from their guts.
Mary @ 43
Reading that makes me feel like I got hit in the gut.
Regarding women, especially in Middle Eastern culture, I am reminded of the video TRex featured in a late nite post of the Lebanese woman debating a male Muslim cleric about women’s rights on t.v. After watching that, it occurred to me that the empowerment of women likely stands to do more damage to the threat posed by Islamic fundamentalism than all the TNT in the world.
.
If events like the murder of Du’a are repellant to the majority of Iraqis, why do not (have not) the majority of Iraqis arise to oppose it, to try to stop it?
it’s my same question to the ‘moderate’ USer Xians who seem to ‘tolerate’ the ‘religious’ excesses of their ‘evangelical’ and ‘fundie’ bretheren?
Selise @ 18: yes, I definitely see an analogy between controlling reproductive freedom and these stories. I was working at a very conservative Catholic church the other day, and the priest spent the entire sermon calling on the parishoners to march down to a specific women’s clinic (in a very poor area of the city) to stop abortions from being performed. He didn’t say what exactly they should do to prevent abortions – what, hold signs and shame the women going into the clinic for whatever reason they may be entering? Do something more active like blocking the clinic or…?
I know Pentecost Sunday is often viewed as a day of empowerment, a day to call people to evangelism. I just find it rather odd that this church would find it empowering and evangelical to shame their poor, desperate neighbors in a very poor area of town. This is the opposite of what I was taught in my Catholic upbringing – God wants us to help and love one another. Why not a call to become more involved in helping the poor in their community? Why not a call to help poor young mothers, help the homeless, help those suffering from violence and poverty – a call to reach out to those who have nothing? No, instead you should march en masse and shame your neighbors.
It is as if many believe that the only way to control society is to control the decision making processes for women. This crosses many lines – not only reproductive choice, but by limiting the career options and pay levels of women, by limiting their roles in society (such as leadership roles in many religions, political offices, etcetera), and by always pressing the societal norm that women must put families above all ambitions in their lives, whereas men do not carry such a burden.
When I read the stories like those that Christy wrote about, I am always amazed at how much freedom women have in America. Yet, there are a lot of subtle things in our society that keep us from having the full right to make our own decisions. Things I rarely think about (as a woman). It’s just an accepted fact that my gender will mean I’m paid less than a man, that I will always be viewed as a selfish woman because I don’t have children (regardless of the reasons for being childless), that society will limit my decision making power because I’m female. I’m guessing it’s an accepted fact in places like Iraq and Saudi Arabia that women’s behavior will be strictly controlled and enforced through violence. Who knows if this type of behavior will ever radically change, if women can truly be given the respect to decide what is best for themselves.
grumbles @ 67
It isn’t just Iraq. Conflict in the middle east isn’t only over oil, it’s also a conflict between an old tribal culture and it’s mores and modern western technological culture.
Change the environment and you change the behavior.
WGG – ask instead why the US allowed one section of the old Iraqi law to remain in the new constitution, the section which allows for lesser penalties for murderers who commit so-called “honor killings.”
Sexism is more pervasive than racism.
We’re so used to it, we can hardly see it.
When we do see it, and notice it, and say something about it — suddenly, it’s not all that important.
We’re making a mountain out of a molehill.
Don’t worry your pretty little heads about it.
Don’t go over the top.
Shut up, b*tch.
Mountain, not molehill.
Muzzy @ 77
It is not just the Islamic world; it is the entire world. The UN has studies showing that countries where women are educated have much lower infant and maternal mortality rates, longer lifespans, greater economic power than countries which obstruct women’s education.
Education = empowerment.
For starters. Grameen Bank’s microloans to women make it clear that women may not need a lot of education to improve their personal finances and a national economy, that financial opportunity increases the power of a nominal amount of education exponentially.
Rayne @ 52
I peeked at your link – thank you for sharing. He does appear to have an interesting theory, some of which may have some merit. I must admit I find the anthropological aspects of this debate most interesting. I think it’s worth looking at if we are ever to understand some of our embedded, often unconscious, beliefs about the roles of men and women in society. The origins of the shift from the matriarchal to patriarchal society, however, will likely be debated for a very long time. Thanks, again, for sharing.
Didn’t try to watch the video. Can’t watch boxing, either.
Keep-women-down examples abound, in religion and in culture. However, one element I find just as disturbing about this whole thing is the good-people-doing-nothing aspect, people standing around, watching stonings and keeping silent.
It seems that for every outraged one of us, there are three or four who just can’t be bothered to care. Six years of catastrophic and fraudulent war, suspended liberties, plummeting respect and prestige. Yet, not enough offense to get off the couch.
“It is not just the Islamic world; it is the entire world. “
Absolutely
That’s the way I feel after I finish reading most of Mary’s comments.
Hey Mary(4), I still remember that really terrific FDL post you did about GOTV, especially for women. USA Steve Biskupic was making the WH happy when he incarcerated this woman Her First Vote Put her in Jail. I bet none of the people who wrote Judge Walton asking for leniency for Scooter, wanted leniency for this poor, uneducated woman. She uses Monica Goodling’s line, “I didn’t mean to,” but when you’re dirt poor, uneducated and African American, it doesn’t seem to work.
OT, Monica is a member of the Federalist Society. Have they kicked her out for saying, “but I didn’t mean to?” If they don’t, I think this is an opportunity to expose the Federalist Society for the fraud that they are.
Siun @ 81
probably because the people drafting the laws for the iraqis wished to be able to have the same kind of language in the USer laws, but couldn’t figger out how to install it???
i dunno, siun…i mean, generally, patriarchy tends to protect itself in ALL its manifestations…
Hmmmm… in a tangent from the original topic…
Study: Conservative religious leaders dominate media coverage in US
Mandrake (84) — oh, definitely, sexism is more pervasive than racism; look at the furor over Imus’ disgusting “nappy-headed hos” comment about Rutger’s women’s basketball team. It was the racial component that drew condemnation; the denigration of women was remotely secondary, an afterthought.
Had Imus only slurred the team’s womanhood instead of their race and womanhood, would he still be on the air today?
grumbles @ 67,
At least in the Catholic church, you can petition the Virgin Mary and any number of saints, many of them female saints.
I’m not Catholic, but I find that appealing.
Human [mis]behavior is usually multifactorial. People respond to similar stressful situations differently because of differences in who they are before they event, as well as differences in the kind of help they received and other life experiences afterwards.
One factor that’s always struck me as important in how men treat women is the presence (or absence) of strong women in their lives. I’ve found that men who had a woman who was important to him that was strong, especially strong enough to deal effectively with the limitations of gender roles, tend to view women as equals.
It’s pretty much the only thing I’ve ever seen that has turned around recalcitrant sexists later in life. When he sees his own daughter harassed because she had the audacity to attend a military academy, become a surgeon, or attempt to break the glass ceiling at many large corporations, sometimes that drives home the message in ways nothing else has. Not always, but sometimes.
Are honor killings an Islamic or tribal custom?
Mary – Lew Koch (our Padilla blogger) would like to check in with you. Is it OK to pass along your email or would you email him at lew dot koch at gmail dot com
Thanks!
This has been under discussion at Making Light for a week. Lots of arguing, no consensus about how to fix the structural problems in our society, never mind other societies with which we are less familiar.
‘Sexism is more pervasive than racism.’
I know quite a few people who would disagree with you on that.
IMO sexism and racism are equally evil.
Things Come Undone – the experts cited by the Campaign to Stop Honor Killings identify them as tribal rather than Islamic.
You can read their info – and support their work here.
“God has spoken to me,” “I listen to God, and what I’ve heard is that I’m supposed to devote myself to rebuilding the conservative base of the Republican party, and I think we shouldn’t be underestimated.”
-Tom Delay
Democracy Now aired a long clip from the movie, War Made Easy. The media ramp up to the war was even more insane than I remembered. It is a must see. There is a clip of it on the following site:
http://www.warmadeeasy.com/
landofthefree @ 89
It it’s Sunday it’s Meet Elmer Gantry.
-GSD
GSD @ 98
That turd sure is hard to flush.
Late to the party – but there is a New Yorker cartoon that a friend gave me on a T-shirt. It shows the “cave” men in the field gathering berries with the women on the hill watching them with spears in their hands. The caption say, “I can’t see what harm it would do to let them have weapons.” Or something to that effect.
That indicates a severe problem with how this culture raises men that cannot be explained by biological mythology or any other means short of this: men like your husband and me are the very rare exceptions, emerging despite – instead of due to – our upbringings.
No, I’m sorry – I’m not fronting a sterotype, I’m looking at statistics and outcomes: the way we raise men in this country is broken as are most of the men. It is a tribute to the innate decency of all humans that the men who are the product of this miserable, destructive culture mostly stew in their own pain and confusion and do not unleash violence on those around them.
What bullshit, a video of Kurds killing a woman is an example of “this county”.
Rayne,
Oh, Imus would still be on the air today, I have no doubt.
Someone else up above was talking about controlling women. I remember in college there being a lot of talk (mostly from men) about whether rape even was possible. After all, if a woman didn’t keep her legs closed, it was consensual, right? Riiight…
why yes Bugman, I understand Colson’s Prison Fellowship is ever expanding :)
FWIW, Roman Catholic Church completely segregates authority into the hands of men, who promise perpetual celibacy. I think you’ll find very strong connections in a lot of sub Xtian, sub human Roman Catholic teachings between sex and ritual impurity. Casti Connubii, a 1930 papal encyclical saw no reason why Catholic couples should have sex after the woman had passed her child bearing years. I think you’ll find the vast majority of women saints to be Virgin. Jesus’ mom is the ultimate . She gave birth (in Luke only btw) without having had sex. Matthew’s version is quite different. In Matthew the angel appears to Joseph, because Mary is already pregnant and Joseph knows it’s not his. John’s gospel and Mark’s avoid the subject all together. There was a pluralism about this topic in the early Xtian churches that the Vatican now ignores.
tommy yum @ 101
that’s because he is such a BIG turd he won’t fit through the pipes.
He was on Colbert a week or so ago….Stephen was surprisingly easy on him, I thought.
I have always envied the womb
(couldn’t resist, so sorry)
Even the best of men have latent sexist tendencies that pop up in the oddest places…
My significant other is literally the kindest, best man I have ever known. We got into a debate one time about whether we’d ever compromise on certain issues (the question was would you vote for a republican if he were pro-choice versus a democrat who was anti-choice, a republican who was pro-gay rights versus a dem who was against them, etc…). He said that he would likely be able to bring himself to vote for the dem, to which I said “I suppose it’s easier to put basic human rights aside in the name of political experiency when they aren’t YOUR rights on the chopping block.” It was an interesting conversation…I think a lot of more moderate types give up things that they shouldn’t in the name of party loyalty.
This topic is a good test of the crusader culture.
If we suppose that these horrific honor murders are widespread in Islamic countries- do we have an obligation to go to war to stop them- supposing that’s an effective way to do it- and that no other way will work.
Under Saddam Women could drive something they can’t do in Saudia Arabia also until the fall of Saddam they could wear western clothes so is Islam or a dictatorship like Saddam’s the problem? I think Iraq preinvasion and Saudia Arabia were relativly well off Saudia Arabia is if anything richer so is the economic wealth of a nation really a factor in Women’s impowerment? Or must the current order change and be replaced as a first step. Voting lets us change the current order sometimes without a war it took the Civil war to free the slaves for example. White nonproperty holders got the right to vote peacefuly first but maybe change has to snowball until everyone is free?
Hey, that’s my current Nokia phone in that picture, but it’s all dressed up in drag.
Siun @ 97
Thank you!
Slightly off topic but not by much
Letter: Radical feminism taking over churches is a letter in the Billing Gazette that sparked a pretty could discussion in the comments.
John–Nice point. As I recall the Catholic Church elevated Mary in status partly in order to facilitate conversions among Pagans who would have rebelled without a female religious figure. Your knowledge of these things has more depth than my own but I remember reading such.
rwcole @ 68
Four out of five murder victims in the U.S. are male. But the media coverage creates the opposite impression. What twist of human instinct explains that fascination with the murder of women (especially the disappearance of blondes)?
perris @ 108
didja ever hear the one about how little girls emerge from the womb and go forth into the world to accomplish great things…..
and little boys emerge from the womb only to spend their entire lives trying to get back in.
:)
Gunga Djinn @ 33
Whedons expression “womb envy,” etc. is maybe a slightly flippant “essentialist” idea of gender (calling FemText), which is outmoded, as opposed to the idea that gender identity is more fluid, non static as is sexual identity. Buffy the Vampire Slayer actually addresses the identity thing in great ways though. I think.
Things Come Undone @ 93
Genital mutilation is also tribal. I mean the Islamic world is wildly variant.
Speaking of gender issues, I read a terrific piece in Slate last night (written by Emily Bazelon and Dahlia Lithwick) on how Monica Goodling played the gender card so very well in her testimony. These ladies hit the nail on the head.
Slate: The Goodling Girl
“I always ask myself when I read these whether I’ have the courage to do the same in the face of the potential penalties to myself and my family, and the answer always comes back that I’m not sure — I’d like to hope so, but how can you know?”
Oh, Christy, puleeeeze! Anyone that spends five minutes with you knows you’ll do what’s right, even in the face of penalties, just or unjust. You are a truly courageous human being!
We need to stand in opposition to the forces that would imbalance our governing processes to the point of serving an ideological Agenda instead of the People. If we don’t, then we’ll steadily lose the protections that guarantee individual freedom of expression and that make our votes count – and Democracy will go out with a whimper instead of a bang.
We’re all with you in that struggle! Please keep leading the way!
If, however, we want to effect transformational change – to take a step out of this continuous fighting between each other – then we need to advocate more than opposition, we need to advocate a whole new framing of the problem that rises above the ‘Us vs. Them’ mentality.
Instead of an entirely relative understanding – ‘Us’ being the default ‘good’ and ‘Them’ being the default ‘bad’ – relative because both sides in a conflict feel justified, why not re-frame the issue absolutely?
As in – we’re all Lost. It doesn’t matter which side of the multi-dimensional spectrum of Life one finds oneself on – Dem/Rep, Christian/Muslim, Rich/Poor – we’re all Lost. Nobody has an ‘inside’ track on ‘the Answer.’ And despite claims to the contrary, everyone dies confused, with no more clarity about what’s going on in Life than they started with (people may have their ‘beliefs,’ but no one claims to ‘know’ with certainty in a way that is convincing to reasonable/sensible others).
So, if we’re all Lost and no one has an ‘inside’ track to clarity of purpose and fulfillment of life potential, then our best hope is for each of us to have the individual freedoms neccessary to realize the full expression of our human-ness for ourselves as we journey – together – through life towards a more durable, peaceful tomorrow, inclusive of all others.
While we need to fight the age-old urge to dominate, I say we should go further this time and transform the understanding of the larger problem so that conflict becomes an increasingly fading thing of the past.
When it’s ‘Us vs. Them’ – Conflict is everywhere – all you see is friend and foe.
When it’s ‘Everyone is Lost’ – Compassion is everywhere – all you see is ‘blind’ people doing the best they can – despite it looking like everything from Sinners thru Saints.
Let’s quell this uprising of Domination against the Rule of Law, this time by BushCo, but let’s also close the book on ‘Conflict as a Lifestyle’ and try ‘Loving each Other’ – for once.
Because, in Truth, we’re all in this together.
Violence against women was almost unknown in my large extended family- with one exception- an aunt who found herself in relationship after relationship where she was physically abused. I don’t pretend to understand the psychology behind her case or other different cases. I expect that the reasons are diverse.
I think raising the idea that women should be equal in a society and BEING able to debate it something that isn’t to likly in Saudia Arabia given their religous police is the first step. Recoginizing women as equal in law and leting them vote is the next step. But getting men to understand/respect these concepts on a PERSONAL level seems to be America’s current problem. Unfortunatly either America goes through a crisis that upsets the current power holders from power and they are replaced by a more prowomen group, or we resign ourselves to a slower rate of change.
It is long out of print, but if you can find a copy of “The Descent of Woman,” by Elaine Morgan, it is well worth the effort to have an opportunity to read it. Maybe in an academic library or somewhere like that.
Morgan (Elaine, not Marabel!) looks at evolution from a female perspective, and even offers possible reasons for evolutionary changes in humans and between men and women that you won’t find in any of the “Tarzanist” writers’ books.
Especially entertaining is her discussion of the hymen, and how men go to such excruciating lengths to try and explain its “evolutionary” purpose.
Siun – yes, it’s fine to give out my email to most anyone who would ask for it. I’m not exactly cloaked in anonymity. *g* But I’ll check in with him too at the addy you list too.
I’ve posited a theory before that most religions support patriarchal control of reproduction. There are a few exceptions, like Buddhism, which one might argue is more like a philosophy than a religion.
What are those exceptions, and what are the cultures like in which those exceptions thrive?
Thanks Mary – we are very protective of the privacy of Firepups.
rwcole @ 115
The Mary figure sprang from Isis, a very popular female cult figure amongst various cultures (Egyptian, Roman, Greek, etc.). She was always depicted seated and suckling an infant. It was easy to transform the figure of Isis into the Christian figure of the Mother of Christ, holding the Christ child in a similar fashion. Hence, the emphasis of the Virgin Mary in Catholicism.
Rayne @ 126
Good question. Don’t know the answer other than, they certainly ain’t runnin’ the world as we know it.
mui at 118 — Whedon’s entire piece addresses that a bit, actually.
Mandrake
Thanks- that makes perfect sense.
rwcole @ 115
“The Lady of Guadalupe”, the black madonna of the enslavement of Mexico by European imperialism, quite consciously and obviously co-opted the nahuatl female deity, Tonantzin, in order to placate and mislead the conquered indigenes.
one really interesting thing to me is the way that OLG’s representations–the icon surrounded by tongues of fire–so closely resembles the Hindu representations of Shiva…
Arianna. Whew!
It’s a portrait that will likely prove to be an anvil around her neck throughout the 2008 campaign, unless she can somehow transform herself from political weather vane to political leader.
Reading Her Way doesn’t leave one optimistic that this will happen any time soon. Clinton’s serial manipulations, prevarications, rationalizations, and calculations on the war are laid out chapter and verse. Literally. Starting with her vote authorizing President Bush to use military force against Iraq.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..49733.html
rw — I had an Aunt who had a similar situation. And Ihave worked with a lot of women through the years in abusive situations, both for themselves and their kids. While I have studied the psych aspects and spent so much time talking with them, trying to nurture self-esteem and respect, and done all of the things the law and the psych community expects and suggests, I am still no closer to really understanding it beyond a surface level. It is such a tough issue — and such a difficult cycle to break.
Rayne @ 126
Well, I don’t know if it’s Buddhism so much, because there’s tons of religious influences, and Confucianism as well, but IMHO Asian countries often tend to be quite matriarchial in terms of family structure. Sometimes I read of those transPacific marriages where the couple knew little of each other, and the American is suprised that the wife is “dominating.” It drives me crazy, that the ‘Murkan didn’t realize that that’s typically Asian and can’t tolerate the reality or even embrace it, because possibly they were expecting someone more pliant.
Redd
I could never figure it out. She was my favorite aunt too- so it really got to me as a kid.
Interestingly enough- of all the aunts- she was the LEAST submissive- she was always totally full of piss and vinegar and had “the mouth” that speaks all.
I really don’t understand it- but when any of us would try to pry her out of one of her relationships- she’d turn against us.
Rayne – an interesting question. I find it illuminating that Mohammed did not identify God as one or the other gender but instead shifted between male and female in the Qu’ran. His wives were powerful figures in the original community.
(and see Karen Armstrong’s bio of Mohammed for more)
The emphasis in Christianity and Judaism on a deity as father figure reinforces patriarchy in a very critical way – religions such as Buddhism which avoid this anthropomorphism have more potential for egalitarian thought. Of course, the strong cultural traditions tend to overwhelm those egalitarian impulses – as can be seen in the treatment of widows in India.
This guy Bush is something else. He wants to halt the bloodshed and genocide. Just not in Iraq.
AP – President Bush ordered new U.S. economic sanctions Tuesday to pressure Sudan’s government to halt the bloodshed in Darfur that the administration has condemned as genocide.
How much of a factor is education somehow I don’t think women educated at Liberty University are all that prowomen’s rights despite there education. Or political power for that matter Pakistan has had a woman as a leader and we in America are still waiting for a women to lead. Yet American women have more rights than Pakistan’s women why?
christy, or siun or somebody among the anointed, help me please…
why is it that my posts sometimes just seem to get swallowed up, only to re-appear at some later time where they weren’t visible before?
it’s frustrating, to say the least, to want to contribute sumpin to the conversation, and to spend some effort and time to craft a post that is interesting and informative, and then to find it swallowed up invisibly…
it has been at least 10 minutes since i hit the SUBMIT Comment button with a post that merely compared Shiva and Tonantzin, with illustrations…and it’s still nowhere to be found…
Seems to me that sanctions about Darfur are appropriate (I say that without much study of the issue.)
landofthefree @ 120
This is so on target, the premise of which did not escape me when contemplating the Republicans of the Committee shamelessly falling over themselves like captivated fools. Are they really that out of touch, or did they just get another memo? Weeeelll, probably a bit of both.
Sometimes, I really wish I couldn’t see things like this so clearly so I wouldn’t stay so p*ssed all the time.
87 – Thanks John. I think that is a very apt analogy and I truly feel for that woman. I went down one path, but this topic is really an intersection of a lot of different pathways and roads.
Siun’s point about Islam v. honor killings and whether or not true Islamic law supports them or not is another good topic, along with the gender issues. But where I think Siun’s point ties to mine is that, in the end, like politics – all law is local.
gotta go -
Actually the differnces between gender/sexual identity in E. Asia and the West is a fascinating topic. It’s less static in E. Asia.
Haul yourselves aboard the next train of thought upstairs.
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..m/#respond
My mother attends a fundie church and is forever going on about how women are to be submissive to her husbands. Makes me laugh my ass off- as she ran the show through three marriages.
wgg at 139 — No idea, was just trying to figure that out. It may be that “tokin’” is triggering the spam filter because we occasionally get drug paraphernalia spam. But I’m not sure that is it, either. To be honest, I really don’t know. But we freed up the last one pretty quickly — sorry for the inconvenience. Try refreshing the whole page instead of hitting “refresh comments” and see that it is already there.
Isis according to Wiki
Christy Hardin Smith @ 133
Look at how many people in this country subscribed to the idea that Bush was a good guy that you just wanted to have a beer with, a compassionate conservative, rancher from Texas and so on…if Americans consciously bought into this regardless of gender, how hard is it to mess with us unconsciously at gender level? How many of us actually had radar up and detected the abusive, dry drunk S.O.B. that we let take office?
There are a LOT of layers to this onion. We could try hard to change a woman’s self-esteem, but that only deals with her conscious and some of the unconscious, not with programming that may be wet wired. And it’s awfully hard to crack that wet wiring when as a society we’ve taken to our figurative national breast an abusive monster. I think we’re going to have to deal with the societal failure to detect bullsh*t before we can successfully reprogram women on an individual level to do so.
wgg: tokun libr’ul – I’m not an annointed one, but my guess would be that there was something in the posts that caused the spam filter to be triggered, putting your comment in moderation. That means it takes a few minutes for the mods to look it over and approve it for publishing.
Sometimes it’s a specific word or series of characters that will trigger it. No worries, though – when you post something that goes into moderation, it will label it as in moderation on your screen. Others won’t see it until it’s been approved and they refresh. Happens all the time at the lake.
Fresh thread for everyone, btw, if you want one.
Kevster @ 3
I’ve seen a still photo. I don’t need to see the video. It would just interject more ‘hatred of men’ and convince yet again of their of their basic unnecessariness(?), and I do well enough on my own with that.
The point I am making has nothing to do with Darfur. It has to do with hypocrisy.
The video…. OMG.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 138
He’s not exactly rushing to do something there either. The Congress declared Darfur a genocide on June 22, 2004, nearly 3 years ago.
Siun @ 136
Does the treatment of widows in India not stem from the older Hindu than Buddhism? I’ve always thought that the sustained adherence to the pantheism of Hindu portrayed a culture in conflict with the roles of gender, not having settled on male ominpotence over the feminine. I note also that Hindu culture tends to be very conservative, being anti-gay and against sex outside of marriage, often arranged.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 133
Huffington’s take on Hillary would be more persuasive if she had done her own research and not fallen back on citing a hack like Gerth. I don’t see anything new here. It’s not like we don’t know that Hillary has to triangulate to breathe.
Christy–
i’m just a little sensitive about this because, for reasons of which i am pretty much in total ignorance, i was recently (for all practical purposes) banished from a forum on which i had participated–as a valued contributor, or so i thought–for close to four years…
paranoid?
well, even paranoids have real enemies…
‘.
John
Ashtart in Judea
The Masoretic (from “Masorah”, which is a body of scribal notes that form a textual guide to the Hebrew Old Testament, compiled from the 7th to 10th centuries CE) pointing in the Hebrew Tanach (bible) indicate the pronunciation as ‘Aštōret instead of the expected ‘Ašteret, probably because the two last syllables have here been pointed with the vowels belonging to bōshet “abomination” to indicate that word should be substituted when reading. The plural form is pointed ‘Aštārōt.
For what seems to be the use of the Hebrew plural form ‘Aštārōt as the name of a demon, see also Astaroth.
Astarte, or Ashtoret in Hebrew, was the principal goddess of the Phoenicians, representing the productive power of nature. She was a lunar goddess and was adopted by the Egyptians as a daughter of Ra or Ptah.
In Jewish mythology, She is referred to as Ashtoreth, supposedly interpreted as a female demon of lust in Hebrew monotheism. The name Asherah may also be confused with Ashtoreth, but is probably a different Goddess.
In Judaized Christian demonology, Ashtoreth is connected to Friday, and visually represented as a young woman with a cow’s horns on her head (sometimes with a cow’s tail too).
(Wikipedia)
Hugh @ 157
Perhaps true. But I sure would love to see Senator Clinton debate Arianna. On just about anything. For that matter, I’d like to see Hillary debate anyone.
Regardless of whether the info is new, is the info true?
LOTF wrote:
Mandrake wrote:
Yeah, I hear you. I was so astounded when Goodling said she didn’t keep a particular female USA around because of the conflict of having “two type A women” – I literally yelled at my teevee. Then I really went ballistic when she wouldn’t characterize her “loyalty investigations & oaths” as illegal… just “over the line”. She was doing quite the balancing act of “oh, I’m kinda young, naive and pretty, I just didn’t realize I was doing something wrong! And I was kinda sorta out of the loop cuz I’m just a giiiirrrl” and this “I’m a type-A woman who couldn’t get along with that b*tch”. That doesn’t jive. Either you’re a cunning, powerhungry woman who is running the show ruthlessly, or you’re a naive little overpromoted girl who has been left out of the loop due to incompetence. Can’t do both simultaneously.
You’re correct that the GOP ate it up, as that’s how many of them like to see their women – pretty window dressing with nothing going on upstairs. And Goodling was more than happy to play “blonde bimbo” for the committee, and the Republicans were more than happy to play into this rehearsed act. I don’t think Conyers and many other Democrats on the committee liked Monica’s act whatsoever.
I get so pissed when women play the gender card like this. Women won’t earn more respect and authority if they’re willing to sell themselves out by playing bimbo every time they make a bad decision.
Rayne @ 126
In India, about 5000 years ago, women were given a higher degree of respect than men. Women were allowed to choose their husbands, mothers were given the highest pedestal … higher than God, guru, father and self.
The Queen’s counsel was greater to the King than anyone else.
The Sanskrit word for husband literally means he who uplifts his wife.
A female yogi was considered to be more valuable than 10,000 male yogis. Of course, greed made all of this disappear, but it is possible to make it so again.
Even now, every “Hindu God” has a related “Goddess” form … but few people understand this significance.
The problem needs to be reframed … not how to make women equal to men, but how to make women realize their vast potential … which will make greed obsolete and enlightened society, the norm.
Rayne @ 156
I always try to be careful applying a Western lens to Asian culture. Many Indians– as well as other Asians– may be ostensibly anti-gay, but they recognize a third sex and those are often outcasts, but in between something is missing, because the saying goes . . . never mind. But take the bound foot of China for instance. To my mind, bound feet were a class statement for ambitious persons to marry their daughters well, because only peasants have flat feet or so the saying goes. The binding was usually perpetuated by the women in the family. It gets complicated.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 161
This expresses exactly how I felt and feel about her vote and the pro-war stance she took until it’s popularity took a nose dive, only stopping to criticize the way the war was run.
My father debated with me on this over the weekend, saying that all members of Congress did not have access to the NIE or any similar intelligence, only those on the Intellligence Committee. Can anyone clarify?
Rayne @ 156
India had been controlled for centuries by invaders – the Mongols, Moghuls, English, Portuguese, etc. The original teachings were bulldozed to suit the invaders’ whims and fancies. Even the Brahmins were corrupted. There is still enough recorded history to distinguish between life based on the principles of Veda/Yoga and that based on greed- based regimes.
Mandrake
That’s my understanding- and the administration sometimes was selective in what the intelligence committees saw- showing some stuff only to “ranking” members.
Christy, nothing to add but my compliments for a great post. I have two beautiful daughters and reading the post and some of the comments filled my eyes with tears and frustration at what we could be but are not.
While I lack the education of most people on this site, I traveled in many islamic countries when I was in the US military. Observing how women were/are treated-also pretty much the same in Japan-before the restoration, Korea-prior to the 1970’s, and most of SEAsia. These were primarily agarian countries, and as farming is very labor intensive, and because women generally lack the physical strength of men, women became both property, because they could contribute sons, and a libability if they had only daughters. Islam became the law of the land, and the men used it to insure that they could control both their wives(multiple, men insuring that they spread their genes as much as possible) and their daughters(thru either marriage to increase the families holdings, or by keeping control of the women to prevent-in their eyes-women getting pregnet by someone other than their husbands. Somehow,I have no idea either how or when, I just know that I have seen it for myself, women became the temptress, men, upon seeing them think that all women want them, and will rape them if the woman is not interested and because they feel that women will attempt to have sex with every man that they see, The men have felt the need to totally control women-however the poorer families honor this more in the breech than in fact. Enough rambling. I believe that the basic reason that men in both asia and the middle east-India is very big in this with their stratified culture-contine to treat women as property(a husband can, in several of these countries can simply kill his wife(or daughter) for any or no reason, and he will not be charged with any crime) is simply economic. Farming is labor intensive, and women can’t pull their weight in these cultures.
Petrocelli @ 163
Has never made sense to me that the portion of the human species that is a majority by number and lives longer on average has not had enough of subjugation and simply thrown thrown off the the yoke.
I don’t cotton to the “womb envy” concept. I’m not sure men really want to be bothered with childbirth or menstruation. No, the thing that separates the hunters from the gatherers is upper body strength. Brute force is the only advantage men have to make sure they never have to be in submission to another human being, especially women. My theory is that the gender inequity problem that we see in the vast majority of societies is a variation on the Stanford Prison Experiment. The guards are men, the prisoners women. The guards have the strength to enforce rules. Women who do not have this physiological advantage find themselves prisoners.
This will always be a problem where rape and violence against women is possible. It will only change once we train all female children to defend themselves, break some knees and take out some eyes instead of submitting to save one’s life.
timr @ 169
Yeah, but that is not universal, nor is it the norm. I don’t know about Japan though, that has a reputation of being more male centered. And Korea was forever colonized. So. But even in Korea, I don’t think that it’s the norm to view women as property. What I have seen of S. Korea, suggests very very strong women.
Rayne @ 170
Ah, you’re still here. It will make sense once I get my first book published … I promise !!!
This is the most difficult subject for humans to face. It means looking deeply within myself and at what point am I driven to violence. At what point do I abuse power? I can see it in others and am horrified by their practices and behavior. Without the human love of violence power would not be abused, wars would not exist, males would not rape females, a person would not be stoned to death. Humans evolved in so many wonderful ways except one – we exterminate and do terrible violence to our own kind. Why? We always have a reason to justify our violence. This amazes me.
Is there an Anthropologist on this site who has studied violence in other cultures? Small bans and tribes? Many have written about violence in a culture they studied. In my own simple way to understand power and violence I find no human being is evolved enough to handle power therefore the first natural thing they do is abuse it because the innate love of violence drives the way we use power. Racism, religious differences, ethnic differences, etc., are all external excuses to justify using violence.
I was doing a research on a small island. The people had ceased to have wars several hundred years earlier once they realized war is a lose-lose practice. On the surface the people seemed idealistic. The longer I lived among the people the more a terrible “flaw” became evident. They had terrible violence within in them that manifested itself differently. The people were homogeneous so they had no racial, religious, ethnic differences. None. Still they found something that they evolved to such a major difference that it was worthy to do violence to another village for it. Dance. One village was horrified and angry and considered the other villagers low and despicable because they did a particular dance differently. So, I went about to study both these dances which were the same dance except they did them differently. I could not find a difference between them. If it was there it was much too subtle for me to detect. Yet, this was a “reason” to distrust each other and if necessary do violence to each other. How did we evolve this way? The male/female hostility is the result of this not the cause. Racism is the result, not the cause. Religious intolerance is the result, not the cause. Help me out here.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 133
Hillary …Enough of the “if only I knew then what I know now” hogwash!
Let’s hope Gore declares in the fall!
On a somewhat lighter note, does anybody remember the routine “The Kathy and Mo Show” used to do about the two angels creating the earth? One says to the other: “Okay, we’re gonna make it so the women give birth to the babies. Do you think the men will have a problem with that?” And the other angel says, “Well, I guess we’ll just give them all the ego we can and hope for the best!”
timr @ 169
While I can understand most of your points, I have a problem with this particular premise. It is not that women cannot pull their weight; they often do that and more. Women working in rice paddies, wheat and corn fields, planting, harvesting, happens all around the world, stopping only to give birth. It is that women are smaller in stature and cannot fight off larger males that is an issue; they can be very easily overtaken if they are heavy with child. Women are smaller in stature in part because they must give up some of their own resources to bearing children.
It comes back to genetic control (and the resources required for propagation). Even other species not remotely human have adapted to the violence of males that force their genetic material on females. Look at what evolution did to ducks’ reproductive systems; it’s not about labor, but control of reproduction.
Petrocelli @ 173
But do tell Petrocelli, do you think there is a tradition of more fluid gender identity in India? A friend of mine would compare differences between Chinese/Asian culture (Thai presents interesting possibilities) and the West. It was a favorite topic, so to speak.
Found the nerve and stomach to watch the footage of Dua Kahlil’s “stoning” or was it a “kicking?” Fucked up!
How brutal humans can be!
Rayne @ 177
And I might often add that women pull their weight, sometimes they are the only ones pulling their weight..
mui @ 178
I am a yoga/meditation teacher and I do not know what you mean by “… more fluid gender identity …”.
For most of history, and still now to a great extent, peoples have been under single- ruler regimes. The historical period when India gave women the respect they deserved also had rulers, but they were part of a democratic system and as boys, they were taught in schools alongside boys from the homes of fishermen, farmers, soldiers, etc. The Princes were taught that each person makes a valuable contribution to society and no one was higher than anyone else in power or worth.
The caste system was skewered much later to subvert the freedom of the people and maintain control by the Monarch.
Desperate Iraqi Refugees Turn to Sex Trade in Syria
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05…..syria.html
You misunderstood, the Japan restoration took place in the 19th century, prior to that women were treated much worse than they are now. Korea prior to 1960 was a very different place than it is now. Today the family unit is changing, but I spent almost 25 years living in Korea, and spent much time traveling all over the mid east and all over asia, and my wife of over 35 years is Korean, that is how I know the culture. As for SEAsia, up until the last 30 or so years, when the area became more industrailized(I was in these areas from about 1947 until about 1985)most all women were treated poorly. Pakistan, to the best of my knowledge, still allows both wife and daughter killings without any penalty. What happened in Iraq does not surprise me, western people(like the US) tend to believe that the local culture is just like ours, just different clothes and language(and most americans that I saw in my 40 years living in other countries just believe that if they speak louder then they will be understood-or else they think the locals are dirty,lazy,and stupid because they don’t believe what your typical american does) You have to understand that in their culture, those Kurds did nothing wrong. They will be praised by others in their community for upholding their religion. Note that they did nothing to the man, after all it is the belief of most cultures in the middleeast that women are the evil one who tempt men from their proper life and religion. Thats just the way it is. Saudi, Iran, Iraq, India, Pakistan, Afghanistan. None of these countries have an american outlook, or for that matter american style religion. The sooner that those in power realize that fact, the better off we will all be.
Petrocelli @ 181
By that I mean men taking on “female” traits and women taking on “male” traits in differing degrees. Maybe not so much in contemporary culture, but definitely back in traditional Chinese culture, so I am told by one who studies it. Sexual identity too. The idea of gay or heterosexual was a moot point, because bisexuality was often a given.
plainjane @ 182
This is just great … now Bush will take credit for creating employment for Iraqis. *g*
QuakerGirl @ 174
Let me throw out an idea for you to chew on, maybe this will stimulate more thought and a direction to pursue.
(I’ve probably said this at FDL before, forgive me if it seems redundant to some of you.)
Personal computers are a model for the human system. To streamline the explanation:
hardware = brain, all other genetically-dictated “equipment”
operating system = religion, cultural and personal values
bios = human “software” that maybe bound in genetics
software = memetics, or all human knowledge that is transferable.
You’ll note that in the PC world there’s this on-going battle between different factions for marketshare. This chip is better, that operating system is better, that software is better. There’s perpetually some degree of differentiation even if it is so transparent and minute that the customers have to flip a coin to make a buying decision. But who benefits? in most cases, there are shareholders in the picture somewhere who benefit from the promotion of differentiation.
In human societies, similar differentiation serves a purpose, even if it is transparent; who benefits? I would be very curious to know if there were any underlying genetic issues involved in the society you were studying, even if they were subtle. Is there an invisible group based unconsciously in genetics (like computer hardware) that is trying to dominate and control resources through differentiation in what is social software?
Food for thought.
timr @ 183
I take issue with you lumping India in with that lot.
Do you mean the Muslims in India, who are allowed to follow Sharia law, even when it is in opposition to the Indian Constitution?
The ideas of “hetero” and “homo” sexuality are creations of the Victorians.
in nature there is only sexuality; everything else is adjectives…
.
sexism has demonstrated by the video and conversely by the whedon post is not the answer. If this killing had been done by people wearing loincloths in a jungle by a “lost Tribe” would it be more acceptable? Can we not recognize local custom, even if it is “inhumane” by western values? I think the westenized appearance of the participants, with clothing and technology, covers the basic cultural difference that still clearly exist. The definition of a Crime comes from local tradition and values. Just because one culture does not accord with ones own is not reason for condemnation. I hate that a girl was killed and it does make me very sad that her culture does not value life more seriously, but I can not condemn those who carried out the accepted law for the area.
timr @ 183
SouthEast Asia. You are talking of Canton, Vietnam, Hong Kong, Thailand etc. I don’t think I would even begin to compare women’s status there with those of the ME or South Asia, Pakistan etc.
skilly @ 189
So to extend the logic, you would not have a problem with slavery if it was the “accepted law for the area”?
Or pedophilia – no problem if it were the “accepted law for the area”?
Sorry, not buying it. There are universal values and ethics that transcend all cultures. Killing and suppressing others is not one of them, anywhere.
timr @ 183
Also Japan has some interesting traditions, such as free courtesan women artists pre-19th c. Apparently so did China. It is a complex landscape. I wish you wouldn’t generalize.
Rayne @ 186
The glaring omission is that the computer cannot upgrade itself whereas a human can raise its consciousness and thus realize the essence of yoga – Unity in diversity.
Unless one sees this, there will always be an inner struggle, which manifests as war, friction, stress, etc. in the material world.
Oops messed up @ 192. That was in reply to timr @ 183
mui @ 192
ATTN: MODS – please correct mui @ 192, the first quote has been attributed to me but in fact it was made by timr @ 183.
Many thanks, P.
mui @ 194
I asked the MOD to correct it … wouldn’t want that quote to be attributed to me.
Petrocelli, The India that I saw was between 1947 and 1975, not only Muslim, but also Hindus were treating women badly. I knew of Hindus families who killed the new wife-they used to call it bride killing-the Hindu practice of stratified social classes where the lower classes could never go up in class, has been abolished by law, but it still goes on. One reason why christianity is so popular in the untouchable class is that is the only way that they can ever hope to be treated better(I doubt that it will happen, but who knows) In a great many Islamic countries, it is not only illegal to not be muslim, but it can quite literally result in death. Different cultures are just that, different. Trying to filter their culture thru the american culture is what has gotten the US in so damn much trouble in the mideast.
Petrocelli @ 196
That bad eh? Darn this quoting business. Apologies.
[Mod Note: we live to serve]
mui @ 198
My friends here at the Lake go back and read threads and if they see that quote coming from me, they might think I’ve been swimming in the Kool Aid. *g*
Thanks Mod(s) !!!
timr @ 183
Three centuries of women artists in Japan
Petrocelli @ 199
Right make me feel guilty already.
mui @ 201
… just doing my manly duty … *g*
Petrocelli @ 193
I used the computer as a model, Petrocelli; it has a limit.
In reality, we are in the computer and it is us. We are part of a massive self-computing system that is irreducible. Computers are as they are because we built them in a primitive likeness of ourselves, a reducible subset.
You and I are merely two nodes on a global computer, with partially independent and mostly local computing capability. We in turn collectively are part of a much larger universal system; grokking this makes the necessity of highly localized violent acts against other components of this network completely unfathomable.
Petrocelli and mui192. Yes, in the upper classes in Japan and China that did indeed happen. But not in the peasent classes.
Re Korea invasions. Until 1905 when Japan conquered Korea, Korea had resisted invasion for a very long time, Indeed, popular Korean culture has it that the Japanese were once part of the 6 kingdoms in Korea, when the other 5 ganged up on them and kicked them out to Japan, which they then took over. Legend has it that for over a thousand years it was a requirement that the Japanese emperor had to get his wife from Korean royality
Rayne @ 203
We are not subservient to a network or limited by the system. We are able to write the codes and adapt ourselves to overcome any limitations – food, knowledge, environment, etc.
I agree with what you are saying, with regards to how society and individuals function … I just know there is much more to existence than that, and the foundations of yoga confirm this.
Petrocelli @ 205
Is this true, or are we just a Turing machine? Read Wolfram’s ‘A New Kind of Science’ and ask yourself how much of adaptation is really pre-programmed.
For you, yoga may provide an explanation. For me, I believe that the answers are only found in a higher state of consciousness that I can’t readily obtain on a sustained basis — and like the proverbial cat in Schroedinger’s box, I doubt that I could return to this space to use what I found if I could be in that state.
timr @ 204
And re: China. Let’s not forget all the powerful women, including Wu Ze Tian
Hi Christy
You touched on the socio biological aspect of this at the beginning of your post.
My ex was (and is) a biologist and a prof who spent a lot of time in sociobiology circles. (happily, he has moved on to other things). When he was gaga about sociobiology, I got endless hours of conversation, first and second hand, about the topic.
You might want to watch the PBS Nature episode that ran just this last week called: “Murder in the Troop”. The topic of this biopic is concern about the fate of two juvenile baboon twins born to the alpha male and the alpha female of the troop. An outside male displaces the alpha male parent. A sociobiology axiom is that males are instinctive in investing resources in their own offspring and it is an evolutionary advantage to not invest in offspring in those who are not your biologically your own. As predicted, the new alpha male kills one of the twins, and the parents of the other twin spend the next six months guarding the surviving baby(until the baby is weaned and the mother eventually mates with the new alpha male, making the baby safe).
While I agree with your “womb envy” analysis, I think this PBS Nature is a good example of the animal instincts at work here. The tribe is acting out the same forces that brought about the murder of the young baboon. It’s about not investing tribal resources in a child who is not a full blooded member of the tribe, whether it’s the stated purpose or not.
Until DNA testing, males could not be sure that the child “their woman” was raising was theirs. This encourages behaviors that made males guard (to the point of suppression and oppression) “their women” so they could not mate with other males. There are whole volumes of works written about these behaviors and male methods to get around them…mostly written as if females are not involved in this at all, although “female choice” is given some lip service…but I digress.
Males can’t have their own babies, and they can’t even really know if the babies they raise are their own. This is a HUGE source of cultural development, and dysfunctional psychological behavior.
You call it “womb envy”.
I think of it as “womb envy on crack”.
It underlies the suppression of female freedom in every culture.
It underlies the irrational need to “control” women.
It’s not rational…it’s instinctual.
It underlies the need (on crack) to control the reproductive lives of “their women”.
This is at the root of the issue.
Now
I had many, many heated arguments with the sociobiology crowd. My repeated point is that we ARE NOT still animals, even though the animal instinct underlie and explain many of our behaviors. We are rational, thinking beings (with access to DNA testing) and we need to outgrow, or at least deal with, this instinct.
The misogynists who do these things are acting out of their animal nature. WE CAN BE BETTER THAN THIS! On an instinctual level, this behavior makes sense to us (?) and therefor we accept it. It’s the lizard brain thing.
as you say
Let’s have some sunshine and discuss why this seems ok (or at least understandable) to too many of us.
I’ve been involved with campaigns to stop the brutal treatment of women since the early 90’s. Both here and abroad.
Many of us began our real awareness first with Africa, then Afghanistan.
Our horror grows with each new revelation, like a giant Abu Ghraib.
But unlike Abu Ghraib, the world and our own Congress just doesn’t seem interested enough to get up off their asses and act.
But I bet Al Gore would.
Rayne @ 206
Yoga/meditation is as relevant in today’s world as ever. It would not have survived thousands of years of oppressive rule if it were not grounded in existence. It is intrinsic to living in one’s full potential.
It is also incumbent upon you to live this life with that higher consciousness.
Be careful not to be imprisoned by your beliefs.
Might I suggest the writings of Messrs Einstein & Emerson as well as Ouspensky’s “A new Model of the Universe”.
If you must read only one book, make it Louise Hay’s “You Can Heal Your Life”.
My Best to you.
P.
I’m not so sure it’s really ‘womb envy’ because we know how aghast many men are with the mysterious workings of a woman’s body.
I see it more that we (women) cause them to be weak. What I mean is that they crave us and that weakens them, their need for us. They are angry that despite their strengths they still need a woman and the need is a weakness.
Because, after all, they have size and strength, but they do know that we are really stronger.
(I mean no disrespect here of the gay/lesbian community.)I’m talking more about needs that weaken than genders.
I’ve always appreciated Golda Meir’s take on violence from men…..
kin @ 208
Thank you, yes. Exactly. I tire of what I call “biological mythology” as an excuse or explanation for human behavior. I’ve even heard biomythological explanations to justify the present cultural preference for tall, skinny, large-breasted women: “Women need to be able to feed the children, and run from predators!” Sheesh…
If all we are is slaves to our biology, then why aren’t we up in the trees where we belong? Why do we insist on unnaturally living to twice our biologically-mandated lifespans?
While we are animals, we are more than animals, and part of our responsibility in the world is to overcome our animal natures and make the world a better place.
skilly @ 189
Rayne @ 191
Rayne,
Pedophilia is a prime example. There are many parts of Africa where sex is “Taught” by the grandparent. now if that grandparent tries to have a lesson in the U.S. he better not rely on his “customs” as defense to the criminal prosecution, but he wont have to in Africa, b.c it won’t be a crime there. If the value is truly “universal” then it will already be accepted in the village in question. It’s not really universal if its not accepted everywhere. I think you may misunderstand what I mean when I say that, “I can not condemn” another for the pracitce of their tradition. It does not mean that I am approving it, or even condoning it. It means, to me anyway, that I can say, “I don’t approve.” But I am just a guest in their house and I have no standing to tell them what to do or how. I can refuse to partake and I can step up and say, Here is why I think this is wrong! Telling people what values they SHOULD have pisses them off.
Just because it’s tradition doesn’t make it right.
Cultures have been known to abandon certain practices that were once acceptable and “legal”, like slavery or denying women the right to vote or own property.
Pedophilia is an example of a practice where young people are abused at an age where they are unable to consent, in the guise of teaching; it does not matter the culture, it is to be abhorred and reviled.
If you make the case that pedophilia is not to be condemned, then rape is also not to be condemned if normative in a culture, as it is in some cultures that also embrace honor killings. Again, this is another practice where persons are not permitted to object, their right to consent or reject ignored.
This isn’t a matter of religion; it’s about human rights, and they are universal. If one cannot consent, it is beyond cultural approval.
Petrocelli @ 210
I am and will remain agnostic as to how any of us get to transcendent and then unity consciousness, or any other state of consciousness for that matter; humans are capable of traversing the transitions from numerous points using numerous methods. I’ve already had a kundalini experience during the birthing process for my first child; having been there, someplace between a transcendent and unity state, I’m pretty sure there are limitations to “outreach” backward from that state, shall we say. Until humans emerge to a point where they can directly transfer or communicate the experience of qualia between themselves, it’s only remotely possible.
In exchange let me suggest both Ken Wilber’s A Brief History of Everything and Jenny Wade’s Changes of Mind: A Holonomic Theory of Human Consciousness.
Rayne, I think we are closer to agreement on these issues than you might think. I agree the certain behavior is to be abhorred and is never appropriate, but societies conclusions on what is universal is not so clear. Historically, slavery was accepted and practiced. It was not seen as abhorrent for centuries. Homo-sexuality has fallen in and out of acceptance over time in certain cultures. believers of certain religions feel they must act immediately on their discovery of transgression. In their world they have no choice, they must do it. Killing is wrong, and yet, our governemnt does it, with sanction from the population and the judiciary. One would be hard pressed to argue that it is universally agreed that killing is unacceptable.
My arguement, basically winds down to, “there is no universal law.” How can we condemn those Kurds for acting upon what they believe? The fact that we find their religion to be mysoginstic (sp?) does not mean that it has no legitimacy. Would you call a jew out of touch b/c they don’t eat pork? Would you call a native american a junky if he took peyote for his ritual? religious/traditional law can not just be mocked without incurring the wrath of the observant. One of the reasons we liberals may not be as effective as we wish is that we may spend too much time moralizing and condemning, and not enough teaching and caring?
Rayne,
The issue of consent.
Did I get a chance to consent to this government? I’m sure I got the chance and I am equally sure that I said, “No Thanks.” In fact, I am fairly confident that, other than those signors of the magna carta, no one gets to consent to their government. Consent to the draft in times of war? I think not. Consent to taxes? um, I’d rather not.
You speak of universal human rights and consent to conduct. Your reference is with Pedophilia, but your general tone leads me to conclude you have others in mend as well. I will never defend pedophilia and my discussion should in no way be seen that way. I agree with you and I share your values concerning its vileness. However, that is not so for all cultures. For you and I to profess that we have the correct position contrary to everything they have been taught and know, isnot only insensiitive, its just plain insulting. More teachers, less judges.
skilly @ 217
Unfortunately this is what happens in a democracy in regards to government — or in third-world banana republics where government is corrupt. There are remedies. But I also note you are conflating individual consent with that of the governed, not at all the same things.
I provide for your edification a link to the United Nations’ Conventions on the Rights of the Child, and the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I’m sure the UN also has several other accords and treaties specifically addressing the rights of women as well as political freedoms.
And I’m entirely aware this particular country is guilty of numerous breaches.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 5
You know Christy, I work in a hospital. I’m in & out ER all during my shift. I’ve been in Radiology for damn near 25 years. I can and have seen things. I think the difference here is watching someone actually being killed. And what also enters into it further (at least for me) is the rationale, the gender of those present, the entertainment value…..
“I can not condemn those who carried out the accepted law for the area.”
You can’t? Really?
I can.
What, shall we then be boiling people in oil where it’s a time-honored local tradition? Puh-leese.
Mandrake @ 42
This began happening, what–40 years ago already? The countervailing example (my-husband-is-the-latest-model-with-extra-long-lasting-supportiveness) used to stereotyping men seems like weak tea–and it’s late to the table. Why not try the old ‘what’s saucy for the goose is saucy for the gander’ test instead? It’s rational, it’s empathetic, all at the same time. Essentializing or exceptionalizing either gender is inconsistent with feminism, whether the generalizing is a compliment directed towards women or a put-down directed towards men.
Feminism and sexism have never been limited to either gender. Plenty of women benefit from, defend, and police the patriarchal status quo and historic sexism. Phyllis Schlafly, anyone?
I share Joss’ outrage, but his ‘critique’ is really pretty shallow, and verges on overcompensating stereotypes that flow in both directions. That’s pretty corrosive.
It commits the same error Freud did–merely substituting “Womb Envy” for “P*nis Envy.” Bright.
The battle can’t be won with some grand gesture–consciously engaging on the interpersonal level with anyone and everyone offers limitless opportunities for forging healthier, more feminist relationships.
(MOD NOTE: Edited with * to allow through spam filter)