Hi folks. Over the past days (and in the weeks before) many of us have been discussiing our concerns about safe food and our reasons for concern about finding safe and health food for our families and loved ones.
We'll be talking more about these issues in the coming weeks; today I'd like to invite those at the Lake concerned about this issue to share their ideas about how to find safe food for their families.
This is a great opportunity fo thse who have yet to comment to join our discussions about bringing home food that's safe to eat.
Please join us.
Related posts:
Spotlight
Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Firedoglake
Advanced search
kirk!
Am I first?
Afternoon, Doc!!!
Ah. Second. Too much to expect after being away for a couple of months.
What do you think about places like Whole Foods Market? Is what you get there really better, “safer” food?
Hi folks!
Welcome.
What are we doing to bring home safe food?
As people drop in, perhaps they’d like to share an idea.
Welcome back AirportCat.
I grew up in California, and we grew vegetables in our back yard. I am sick of summer squash and zucchini to this day. My mom had about 150 recipes for squash, and the only one I really liked was zucchini cake, which was made with sherry and didn’t taste like squash at all.
Be very serious check out food imported from China !
Go organic or even better grow your own vegie!
AirportCat @ 4
Airport Cat, that’s a great question.
Current food risks include:
toxic substances (pesticides)
GMO organisms (Frankenfoods)
chemically contaminated food ingredients (melamine, etc)
microbially contaminated poultry, beef, fish.
Current organic guidelines exclude most chemicals and all GMO’s.
Organic food is at Whole Foods, but also in less expensive places.
Local health-food staores and food coops usually carry organics (often in bulk) for far less than Whole Foods prices.
Hi ES, thanks for the welcome. I’m no longer in south Louisiana, it’s north Dallas now. And speaking of bringing home safe food for your family, for a while there it was very scary trying to bring home safe food for the four-footed family members.
Eight U.S. troops were killed in Iraq on Monday in a deadly chain of events that began when a U.S. helicopter crashed, apparently shot down by small-arms fire, according to a U.S. military official. A military vehicle rushing to the helicopter crash site was hit by an exploding roadside bomb, and a second “quick-reaction force” vehicle also was hit, the official said.
Oops sounds like the bad guys are getting pretty sophisticated. Bad News.
hard to believe, but seeing zeds is believing.
meantime, to the topic at hand. where i live, we are blessed to have some lovely farmers’ markets where i can buy local, organic produce. not only is it safe food, but i support the local farmers and not much middle eastern oil is used to get it from farm to my kitchen. i also am a member of my local food coop whose labels i trust. the fish i eat is certified wild caught. i pretty much eat macrobiotically, which, for me, means grains, beans, vegetables, some fish and some fruit.
i sometimes eat meat when i go out to eat, but now that i see what’s happening with the safety of commercially sold meat, i’m more reluctant to eat it when i go out. most of my food, i make “from scratch” so there’s very little of what goes into processed and ready-made food in what i prepare.
What about hormones, specifically in chickens? Is that not considered a danger?
Just read on one of the other blogs (sorry, too many to search for a linky) that one of the US beef producers wants to inspect 100% of its meat……..wait for it……….bushco is doing everything w/in its power to prevent this happening.
This weekend I planted a bunch of vegetables in my backyard. Never done it before, but I come from a long line of gardeners. I don’t see the point in owning land if it isn’t productive; we’ve been growing herbs for a couple of years now. They are beautiful and functional, as opposed to lawns, which are a waste of land and water, especially here in the west.
Don’t be buying perfect-looking fruits and vegetables, embrace the blemishes!
Don’t do anything to make sure that my food is safe. All my life I’ve been listenin to people tell me that this, that, or the other thing is gonna kill me. Many of them are dead now. I just don’t take it very seriously- too much information- most of it bullshit.
For the last 30 years I have tried to buy or grow produce with few pestisides and still do. Hopefully my adult sons follow that practice but because of our hectic pace that is not always possible. It would be nice if we had a government agency that could help us out.
Al Gore on KO right now
I’ve read several people talking about growing your own. However, what guarantees are there that your local environment isn’t already toxic?
Here, we have paper mills that drove the economy for generations. As a result, the river beds are chemical soup. The last time the river was dredged, people were dressed in full dry suits and were thoroughly cleaned off as soon as they exited the water. This the same source for our local drinking water.
We also made napalm… Fire extinguishing technology is tested on open air fires. Wind direction pushes these clouds over the city – the first building they hit is the local high school.
With federal funds for SuperFund being cut, the number of recognized sites here has gone down since Bush entered office, but nothing has been cleaned.
I know we’re not the only community out there with these problems. What then?
I would like to know what makes you an expert in the field of Organics, GMO, food safety
Hi Kirk, to be honest, I’m totally consumed with working at this new job I have.
I don’t want to say anything negative about that (but all and sundry, feel free to project).
So anyways, all I try to do is make sure I buy plenty of carrots and broccoli.
I guess this sounds pretty lame, and probably for good reason. But that’s what I’m doing.
As a person who buys as much local produce as possible I appreciate what you are trying to do.
As a geneticist with 20 years of experience, I don’t appreciate the language you are using to trying to deal with the issues, and frankly some of your claims about GMOs are scientifically wrong (like genetic instability leading to new proteins; that argument is better suited for cancer biology). There is much to worry about with GMOs, and the stance that the EU is taking may ultimately prevail. But stick to real facts and names, not those that would make a headline in the National Enquirer.
Mrs CO enjoyed this; the publisher has a lot of titles on this topic;
http://www.chelseagreen.com/2006/items/revolution
Waccamaw @ 14
Creekstone Farms
Waccamaw @ 14
There was an AP story from the NYTimes. I posted a link at the beginning of Ian’s thread downstairs this afternoon.
Hey Kirk!
We’re almost a completely organic household … flavors are better, food is healthier and as much as possible in a big city we support local producers.
Our local coop sucks though which is frustrating since I prefer the co-op model but we hit farmers markets (and the one in our neighborhood kicks in this week!), whole foods (aieee!) and trader joe’s which I do enjoy.
Homecooked, rarely microwave … cooking makes me smile.
Off topic, but Was I asleep or has no one else seen and commented on this STATEMENT ON SENTENCING to the court by our man Fitz??!!
Noonan @ 20
Noonan – this is such a sad and eloquent description. How do we grow safe food on poisoned lands?
A very small micro-solution used bu some city allotment farmeres is to bring in clean topsoil and make raised beds atop the existing soil – but this superficial solution does not address the tragedy you describe.
rwcole, One of my sons has problems with antibiotics, either they don’t work or he’s allergic to them. He was prescribed Cipro during the anthrax scare and of course his bank called to confirm the charge (yeah) anyway to make a long story short he’ll still occasionally eat treated beef because he just doesn’t get sick that often. So he’s not as concerned. Fortunately he has a mom to nag him. Take control of what you eat.
BushCo to Meat packers: Don’t test all cows for Mad Cow disease.
and…
one of the farms i buy from, i actually go to the farm and they’ve got their farmstand by their house. it’s a true joy to go there. it’s always so visually and spiritually nurturing to see and be at the farm itself. the couple who own it and farm it are warm and friendly and “down to earth”, so to speak. it’s in town a few miles from my house. they’ve got an additional farm out in the countryside and grow some of their produce there and bring it in to town for market days – wednesday and saturday.
last time i went, on saturday, there was already sweet corn. and i also got cucumber and those beautiful patty pan squashes, zuccini, luscious fat carrots and dinosaur kale that my taste buds just love.
and besides the friendly farmers, i often see people i know and love there shopping for their families as well.
PeteCO @ 15
not to mention the wretched ear pollution of lawnmowers, weed whackers, and leaf blowers (damn them all!)
darkhawk973 @ 8
They just sentenced their former FDA head to death today for taking bribes leading to their equivalent of depraved negligent murder. I’d like sympathize with the guy for their brutality, but apparently his bribe-taking, or rather the incident that they actually convicted him on, led directly to the deaths of 13 infants in their state orphanages, due to defective formula.
More to the point, though, this isn’t just a Chinese problem, or a foreign problem due to shoddy imports. There are real structural issues with both our regulatory system (or what’s left it after 6 yrs of shrubco) and the ag supply chain as a whole. This entire system needs to reengineered to facilitate food security, not just for GMO food, which I personally believe is a bit of a paper tiger (since we’re onto the China thing here, sorry), but rather proper regulation of all food products.
hychka @ 28
Jane did a couple of threads on this over the weekend…
Hi Doc,
I’m not sure if it’s actually “healthier” or “safer” but I have grown more and more fond of shopping at the weekly “farmers markets” here in my area. The pricing is really good and you get to look the person selling it to you in the eye while they tell you about their growing methods and practices.
I don’t know if that adds any “safety” factor to buying good foods but at the least, it cuts down on the fuel costs necessary to transport the food. Do you find that produce/livestock grown locally and in smaller batches tends to be safer as a rule or more risky?
Nate
JPL
My mom is a food supplement nut- she’s always sending capsules of various things that ya can’t live without cause modern farming takes all the nutrition out of vegetables. I don’t know- seems as if her sources on nutrition are on a par with her sources on theology- guys on cable teevee.
I take a vitamin pill every day and try to avoid too much fat- but that’s about it.
Kirk James Murphy, M.D. @ 29
Current Organic Standards strictly prohibited the use of hormones in Organic meat production. What consumers need to know is the the USDA definition of Natural Beef is animals that have not been injected with hormones and antibiotics 30 days PRIOR to slaughter.
jayt @ 19
And wearing a very presidential blue silk necktie.
ReElect President Al Gore in 2008!
Accept no substitute/s.
dakine01 @ 35
don’t forget emptywheel!
the report itself is absolutely fabulous
I stopped buying any vegetable in “cut-up” form a while back; just that many more surfaces for possible contamination. Will start purchasing meat only if it is ground/chunked at point of purchase. Am going to buy as much locally produced as possible and definitely planning to buy organic also…..although I have very serious reservations wrt how much faith to place in that term “organic”. Began canning and freezing serious quantities of fruits & veggies last summer; that plan continues. Second year for growing all the lettuce and spinach I can eat in nothing more than pots on the deck.
Tks, Elliott & dakine01.
just driving by, but wanted to leave a short comment. Like Siun @27, I shop at Trader Joe’s quite frequently, and my local Wegman’s has a fantastic organic produce selection as well as their “Nature’s Marketplace” section within the store. And whenever I’m out in beautiful Middleburg, VA I go to the Home Farm shop, which sells goods right off the farm owned by Sandy Lerner (once of Cisco Systems). Curiously enough, her farm is called the Home Farm! ;-)
Here in the OC, we can buy weekly baskets of organic produce in a Community supported agriculture program.
We also manage to produce a lot of our own fruit, lettuce, tomatoes, chard, and all or our herbs in raised beds in our back yard.
We can find naturally grown meet, eggs, and milk locally, without the hormones and antibiotics, and we don’t eat much meat, so the higher prices don’t really bother us.
rw, some vegies absorb more pestisides than others. Probably no need to buy organic for bananas or other thick skin produce but potatoes are different. I’m not a necessarily a vitamin supplement person, but I’m furious that we have a government that allows antibiotics in meat products and I do write letters and I do nag.
newspaperbrat @ 39
he’s a big fan of the discourse engendered by the internet. IIRC, he said to Jon Stewart that if the net, as it exists today, had been up and functioning in 2000, things mighta been very different.
And he has a new book. (how do I insert a subliminal “Book Salon” suggestion?)
Organic George, thank you for the information on Organic standards – without them, we would be in a far more dangerous place.
Sadly, many endocrine disruptors are also persistant organic pollutants. Not organic in the good sense – organic in the “organic chemistry” sense.
These POP’s are the same compounds that are taken up by our body fat and – if we breast feed -released in our milk.
Relase of POP’s in breastmilk is thought to be the resaon breastfeeding decreases nursing moms’ cancer rates.
The mom’sy pass the POPs out: in breast milk.
Unfortunately, the last sixty years have seen POPs spread across the planet, to the point that all tested humans show some in the blood.
Now that POP’s are distributed around the planet, even organic animals will still carry some of that pollutant burden.
But choosing organic is still the best way to minimize ingestion of hormones and endocrine supplements.
me, i’m glad you raised this issue for serious, dood!
it isn’t at all trivial…a consumerist culture of the age, persistence, and perfusion of this one makes the issue of the food source utterly critical…
one of john rawls’ betes noire was the economist/philosopher Amatyra Singh…who won a nobel prize mainly on the basis of work which showed famine is almost NEVER a matter of production or plenty, but of allocation and dsitribution…
famine, that is, is a political phenomenon…
.
JPL
I suppose that the antibiotics in meat increase the risk of creating antibiotic resistant bacteria- correct? Are those the main health risks you see?
I used to be married to a woman who was totally dedicated to organic food- but she died of breast cancer.
HI everyone,
As a devout foodie I had to chime in here.
re: JPL at 44: Hate to break it to you but Bananas are the worst pesticide offender available. They spray them with the stuff and then put plastic bags over them to let it soak in.
rwcole @ 48
It means that infections last for weeks. My son is really healthy but a strep infection could cause him to use the antibiotics of the last resort. In fact those are the ones they are now thinking of using on cows. Death can come for many reasons, cancer being a tragic one but it not need be caused by tainted food supplies.
JPL
Yeah- lots of things can kill ya- and one day one of em will. My wife actually got religious about organic food AFTER she was diagnosed.
Topanga-lib @ 49
Thanks, that one surprises me..
Nate @ 36
Great question, Nate -
Fewer food miles flown/driven will help the whole planet’s health.
Waccamaw’s describing another important benefit of purchasing produce/livestock grown locally and in smaller batches – contamination.
When every local market had a butcher, one contaminated side of beef could make one market’s customers sick.
With produce/meats/poultry packaged in factory ag, the conamination can be spread around tens of thousands of packages, sickening thousands.
Local and samll batches decrease the amount of “shit-sharing” in our food chain.
JPL @ 50
yet i think the members of the boomer generation and subsequent coteries will, on average live shorter, more diseased lives than their parents, due mostly to their relatively longer immersion (since birth, really) in unregulated toxic chemicals, and the diseases that ensued therefrom…
.
to start with, don’t believe anything your government says.
if the ingredients include anything that doesn’t seem to belong, they don’t belong.
there is no safe “flesh” to consume. it all has poisons that you know of, and many you do not. when I say do not, meaning, that the government does not test for them. our government gets paid campaign contributions to make poison safe. (ie; chickens don’t usually eat arsenic)
restrict your intake of proteins, you don’t need by 10-20% of what an average diet in this country take in.
drink water, lots of it. it is the only thing that flushes your cells clean
organic, by all means. just make sure.
and if you want to offer up safe food? consider reverting to a life style that existed before the industrial revolution. and in a place where there was no industrial revolution, for you have a better chance of having uncontaminated soil.
and don’t use pesticides. they kill bugs. why would anyone assume that they don’t also kill you?
tough choices, but easy to get used to, good luck to all of you!
Aeolus @ 43
Aeolus, so glad you’ve mentioned CSA’s – and such a great way for those physically unable to get to a farmers’ market to still enjoy fresh produce directly from the farm.
If you’re still here, can you tell us more about CSA’s and how they work? What came in this week’s box? :)
Topanga-lib @ 49
The real problem with bananas is that conventional growers use systemic pesticides, so the chemicals go through the plant into the fruit. Also I would like to add that Gassing green bananas is not harmful. Wood alcohol is use to create ethylene gas that activates ripening. Yes there is a skull and cross bones on the alcohol bottles but that’s because some the workers think wood alcohol is fastest way to get drunk, even though it can kill them.
Like give up Rib Eyes? Holy shit- that’s like daily major surgery!
Have any of you heard of the Slow food movement?
It started in Italy as a protest against Macdonalds and American Fast Food Culture and they are the ones who actually stopped GMO’s in the EU.
Alice Waters, owner of Chez Panisse, started the first Convivium in the US and now there are many around the country.
They work “to defend biodiversity in our food supply, spread taste education and connect producers of excellent foods with co-producers through events and initiatives.”
Basically it is a group of ardent foodies who support farmers, farmers markets, slow food restaurants and school programs that teach kids what food should really taste like and how to cook it.
Here’s the link: http://www.slowfood.com/
If you need yet another reason to give up meat, read this:
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-Mad-Cow.html
FYI: The news here is full of advice about what to do if you run into a bear.
The first thing is: don’t run. You can’t outrun a bear.
the next thing is, you gotta make yourself BIG. You gotta convince the bear that screwing wichew is the worst POSSIBLE idea it could POSSIBLY have…you grab a stick and wave your jacket, and roll back your head and bellow; i.e., you go into your whole ‘i cannot BELIEVE you think you’re gonna fuck with me’ routine.
it might not work…
if it doesn’t, go for the eyes and the nose wicher stick…
that might not work either…
.
cuz, as a predator, a bear knows how to balance a meal with a risk…if you aint worth the risk, the bear prob’ly will go back to being just a bear, and not a threat to your very life…
.
It’s be the shits to give up meat in hopes of living longer and then ta get run over by an organic vegetable truck or somethin.
Topanga-lib @ 59
I’m very familiar with the slow food movement. However, when you talk to producers of slow food is finding markets to sell all their production. So the laws of economics still have relevancy in any food system
But a good thing to help the planet by being smart about food. And you feel better too. Sounds win-win.
Oh, yeh……another change in my food “style”: making many more things from “scratch”…………easier to control quanitity and quality of ingredients. Scares the spit outta me to read ingredient lists and not recognize ANYTHING that’s listed!
joanne g murphy @ 60
If you look at sustainable food systems at any period of time, except after the 1950’s, you will find that animals have an place in food production. Eating meat is not necessarily evil, like all things moderation is key.
Ya don’t NEED meat of course- ya can have one of them textured soy patties dipped in organic steak sauce. MMMM good.
Hi Kirk and all:
We joined a CSA last year (should have done it sooner, but better late than never) and now I have to put up with the “OMG the kale will kill me” jokes from mr. martha. But, a bag (or two in mid-summer) full of veggies every week for just the two of us forces me to become an even more creative cook than I already am.
Here in SW Wisconsin, (Hi Noonan!) there are a growing number of CSAs available. The price around here is roughly $400 for a full share that lasts from late May through mid-October. Because of our climate, I expect our first bag (pickup is Thursday!) will have lots of early greens–spinach, arugula, early lettuces, sprouts, etc. The one we joined offers mostly veggies, flowers, and herbs. Some around here have orchards, so they can offer fruit. Some also have teamed with organic or local egg, dairy, or meat producers too.
For me, organic is not as important as buying local–get to know the local farmers and producers, buy from them. But that’s just me.
Ya can always eat Toe Foo of course.
Man, I got so flamed in the immigration thread that I’m gonna just sit back and watch rw take his (my) lumps on this one and let him know that there’s a burger waitin’ for him on the grill.
We shop Trader Joes and local farmer’s markets for reasons expressed above.
Topanga-lib, waivin’ at ya from up by the park. Doesn’t the banana peel prevent the pesticides from entering the fruit ? (things that have peelings and all that).
Wolfowitz bronze (the media did it)
Bey Buchanan silver (talking about Hilliary talking about Chelsea on 9/11)
and the winner is -
Sean Hannity for bashing John Edwards haircut (he can’t stand up to al Qaeda cuz he gets haircuts)
Blub, this is where the precautionary principle comes in.
Our current system is a “body-count” system. Industry synthesizes a chemical, creates a market for the chemical, then sells it. Direct health assessments come much later – if at all. OF the over 80,000 manufactured chemicals in commerical use, most have never undergone thorough systematic long-term assessment of health effects.
Once a product shows signs of toxicity, industry begins the deflection game. With GMO’s the Monsanto attorney who worked temprorarily in government wrote a process that ignored FDA scientists, but served his corporation very well.
As we’ve seen with global warming and tobacco and Rachel Carson’ work, industry’s next steps are:
1) personally attack the critic identifyiing toxic products;
2) flood the discussion with side issues – demand answers to the side issues – claim no further regulation possible until all questions answered
The Precautionary Principle ends the whole charade. The PP – already adopted in the EU as the basis for these assessments – inverts the body count system.
WIth the PP, the public don’t havve to get infertility, malignancies, learning disorders and then go battle some corporation and their industry flacks for years to get rid of one toxin.
The PP puts the burden on industry: demonstrate the absence of toxic effects before your product is ever released.
Don’t do this – your product is never released.
Right now we humans sicken and die because a few very large industries beleive their chemicals have more rights to exist than we humans ave.
The PP establishes that our safety is primary – and the corporations have no right to harm us and our environment.
Imagine – cancer survivors have rights; carcinogens don’t.
What a world that would be.
Tim- My wife shops at Trader Joe’s too- but she buys MEAT there.
will food safety ever get put under one govt. agency?
Organic George @ 66
I respect the vegetarian’s choice; but I’m with you, we evolved as omnivores, a definite adaptive advantage.
Oh, and I love Trader Joes and Whole Paycheck makes my teeth hurt. Our local coop is also quite good, but many of the shoppers/staff are just…so…superior. (I look like evil yuppie scum some days, thanks to client meetings.) Some days, I just can’t face the attitude, so TJs gets my money.
I like what Dr. Murphy taught me about the PP (had never heard of it). Makes total sense and sounds like what the FDA used to do on our behalf before they were co-opted.
Martha — Whole Paycheck ;-) I hadn’t heard that one before…fitting!
Well everyone needs to do what they can to avoid fear about food. Ain’t healthy to be paranoid about what yer eatin. Bon Appetite.
Elliott @ 75
The Janes (spelling ?) a sect in India, have been vegetarians for centuries.
As mom of an Autism Spectrum kid, I’ve had to become adept at shopping for organic, hormone-free, gluten-free, soy-free, etc. foods. It’s given me a crash course in biochemistry, and I fear that these kids are just the canaries in the coal mine. The rise in asthma, celiac disease, lupus, MS and ALS (a friend diagnosed at age 35), along with the autism epidemic, to me all points to environmental causes that are making us very sick. Don’t even get me started on mercury. I’m lucky to live near Whole Foods and Trader Joe’s, and we have a ton of farmers’ markets every week where we can get organic produce. There are lots of on-line sources for specialty products, too. But it is really vital for us that the food that is labelled “organic” really IS organic.
Elliott @ 75
Have you read Diet For A New America ?
For years, Doctors have wanted to impress on the public, the need to cut meat consumption to 3 ounces a week, but the various Lobbies shoot them down. I’m off to find the articles about this … if anyone has them, please post the links.
Meat production for consumption remains the biggest user of fuel and a major polluter to our water supply if not the biggest.
Hi Tim,
Waving back from up on Medley.
I would guess the peel protects it some but why bother. Even the local vons has organic bananas now so the are easy to come by.
BTW Isn’t there a Banana farm up the 101 just before Carpentaria. Never had their bananas but I hear they are wonderful.
Boy, we are spoiled in LA
Organic George @ 80
They are called Jains, although some of them might answer to Jane as well. *g*
3 oz per week?- or 3 oz per DAY?
Eli upstairs
Tim @ 77
Thanks, Tim
Just as some states and localities are moving ahead on global climate change solutions without waiting for the Beltway, some American cities and towns are already adopting the precautionary prinicipleas abasis for law and policy.
We can do it withut waiting for the FDA to shake off Monsanto and Bayer and the Frankenfood labs.
(Having done it in 1998-1999 with the LAUSD’s pest management policy, its also a lot of fun – The LA school district’s edcuation plan around the pest issue helped to inform 750,000 kids – and their families – of the concept. Every school year.)
Garbo @ 82
I recommend that you check out www dot iahp dot org … they have done ground breaking on autism and all kinds of disabilities.
organic george, obviously you did NOT read my link.
There are many excellent reasons to give up meat—especially nowadays, when the atrocities of factory farming are incredibly cruel to the animals and toxic to people (i.e. filthy and disease-ridden slaughterhouse conditions; animals pumped full of antibiotics and other chemicals; animals forced to consume cheap excrement-ridden food; animals ripped up while still alive, etc). But if THAT weren’;t enough……the Bush Administration is fighting to STOP testing for mad cow disease!
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-Mad-
Cow.html
Read before you preach, thanks!
rwcole @ 85
3 oz. per week … maximum.
Meat and animal products do more harm than good to humans.
FYI, new thread
petro-
Yikes- that’s TOUGH.
T-Lib,
The banana farm in La Conchita was displaced by the storms of 2005 (our “rock” year) and later by that disastrous landslide at the same community.
I’d heard they were great as well. Gotta have that potassium.
rwcole @ 92
Read Diet For A New America, Diet For A Small Planet, Fit For Life.
I am vegetarian, but I don’t think you have to be one to be healthy. If you have a diet like the people of the Mediterranean, you will be healthy, and that is what I wish for you … a healthy, happy life full of passion and bliss.
Garbo @ 82
Garbo, I wish you and all the other families confronted by autism did not have the burden of that illness in your lives.
And your sense that diffuse environmental toxins are causiing multiple illnesses – includinig learning disorders – is well-founded.
Petrocelli @ 88
Thanks for the tip — will check it out. I recommend generationrescueDOTorg (and every organization they link to.)
Garbo @ 82
A quick backgound on Organic standards and regulations. In the 80’s and early 90’s the Organic community came together to harmonize organic standards between the various organic certifers both domestic and international. The harmonization resulted in standards about 98% them same.
In 1990 the same Organic community went to Washington DC and asked that the Feds regulate Organic standards so that organics would not become as meaningless as Natural.
Over the objection of the White House, USDA, FDA, EPA and the House Ag committee, the Organic Foods Production Act was passed.
Over the next decade we went through the rule making process with the Federal government. There have been some tought battles but the Organic community has gotten most of it wanted, which is very unsual in the rule making process.
If anyone wants to change what ingredients are used in organics they first have to petition the National Organic Standards Board (made up of members of the organic community) and I can tell you from experience that makeing changes can take months if not years. Once the NOSB makes a decision it goes to the National Organic Program with in the USDA where it goes through another vetting.
The Organic program is the very first attempt to regulate a food system from soil to retail shelf.
So I can say that Organic products are real and that fraud is very difficult to pull off due to the volumes of paperwork requred from farmer to store.
Hope this helps.
lina @ 74
Great question, lina.
With the USDA stuck between the Dept of Ag’s constituency (Ag) vs public safety, the tension there has been well-documented for years.
The rot at FDA is less severe, but very real.
I’d love to see food safety under the Surgeon General of CDC – but with indepedent comissioners on teh FCC model. None of these firewalls would work indefinitely – but they could diffuse the political pressure.
THe obviously problem is how to keep the regulated industry out of agency jobs – how to keep purchased COngress and/or WH from appointing industry tools as comissioners.
GOt me on that one.
joanne g murphy @ 89
I eat organic. Organic regulations do not allow the barbaric handling of animals you find in conventional systems. The first time a visited a conventional chicken house I threw up. It reminded me of pictures of concentration camps. I do not eat any conventional meat, since I have seen the adherent conditions the animals are subjected to.
Well some of us eat meat an some of us don’t- but we all know that GW Clusterfuck is hazardous to human health.
Many folks still equate organics with “too expensive”, and hence don’t even try to seek out organic foods. THey never get a chance to enjoy or benefit from the hard work Organic George and so manyothers have done to protect US organc standards.
Over the last few weeks in food discussions here at the Lake we’ve shared info about affordable organics, and folks today shared a lot of good resources.
One of the most helpful “aprons-on” resource for this is written by a woman trying to cook and eat organic “on a food stamp budget“.
Kirk James Murphy, M.D. @ 95
Thanks for the good thoughts. We are doing great thanks to DAN doctors. Tested 3x high reference range for mercury (what a shock) and chelating to great success. But it just chaps my hide that people still think mercury dental fillings are OK, and pregnant women and kids should get flu shots that contain high levels of mercury. CDC is complicit. What’s to be done about that?
Organic George @ 97
{{{Yay for the good guys!}}} Yes, it helps.
Kirk James Murphy, M.D. @ 98
It would be very difficult for one agency to handle food safety. You have experts in each agency, USDA for meats, grain etc and FDA for processed foods and addatives.
The problem is that the Bush adminisatration is not allowing the regulations on the books to be enfouced or they are rewriting then to industry request.
Mitch @ 23
Starlink [TM] corn is my rebuttal. There was a lot of science behind it, but it simply wasn’t enough.
And more science wouldn’t solve the problems related to gross negligence in distribution.
Personally, I do not want to eat any GMO products that require splicing of genetic content from animals into plants. I don’t care how much science humans put into it; it’s simply not worth it when we have plenty of good food. The largest challenge to humans trying to solve the problem of hunger is distribution; genetic modification is not an end-all, be-all that should be seen as the solution to a distribution problem.
PeteCO shared another great resource – two resources, actually.
PeteCO @ 24
Great picks, PeteCO
The Revolution Will Not Be Microwaved
Inside America’s Underground Food Movements
and
Wild Fementation
are really enticing.
rwcole @ 100
707 !!! Give that man … er … lady … a Moosehead !!!
Surely EPU’d but…
I grow my own vegies – no pesticides, etc – and buy what I can’t grow at the farmer’s market. We also pick our own fruits at organic farms. Each summer, I can and freeze for off-season use, though we do have to supplement with frozen.
I’m also lucky enough to be able to buy locally from a meat plant raises it’s own all-natural and organic beef. For those outside the area, they also ship: http://www.allnaturalbeefco.com
Topanga-lib @ 83
The 101 banana farm is gone. When the slide hit La Conchita they got caught in the middle of the legal wrangling and their lease was not renewed. They had good nanners.
Topanga-lib @ 59
Topanga-lib, thanks so much for sahring Slow Food here on the Lake.
Americans find it easy to forget the “market forces” which we are told must control our lives are simply collective delusions.
Humans invented the concept of “the market” – in the US, there has never been a free market since the Puritans arrived to harry the First Peoples.
Our massive Farm Bill, the cost of having the Corps of Engineers pave and straighten the Upper Mississippi to make the water safe for soybean barges – even the deductions corporate AG takes on the pesticides they spray on our food -
None of those are natural laws. All of these are simply artefacts of certain manmade beliefs.
Industry and advertising tell us to move around and get more crap because we actually don’t need to buy that much to be happy.
Slow Food directly confronts the toxic cultural messages sent by those who value quarterly earnings over life itself.
The “free markets” have given us:
1) safety standards gutted by industry to increase profits
2) toxic GMO food plants sold by industry to increase profits
3) elected governments bribed into inaction by industry to increase profits
4) Federal regualtory agencies perverted and corrupted by idustry to increase profits.
What we know as “publicly traded” megacorps have only been on the planet around one hundred and fifty years.
A disastrous diversion from the biorhythms of sustainable life.
Topanga-lib, thanks for remindng people of Slow Food and the healthy values the movement carries.
We don’t need Friedman’s religion of “market capitalism”
We do need healthy food.
Slow Food points the way.
Also in EPU…there are Amish families in the area who aren’t organic per se, but they try to minimize their usage of “English” technology. They still use draft horses and graze their cattle. I try to buy from them at the local farm markets as much as possible, since they rely on the cash and most of it stays local. They also sell other crafts I can’t get from other vendors — like a maple laundry drying rack big and stout enough for a full load of laundry, along with some fabulous homemade baked goods. Mmm-mmm.
PA_Lady @ 108
PA Lady, we may be EPU’d, but that link will be saved and shared. Thanks for sahring that resource with the Lake.
And thanks to all who read and commented today about ways to bring home safe food for the people we love.
I look forward to our next discussion.
There is information out there on making an effort to eat smart and safe. Barbara Kingsolver has a new book Animal, Vegetable, Miracle that is a good read and also has some good resources. The key is to try and know where your food comes from and wherever possible buy locally produced food or grow your own. Not everyone will have the option but a family of four can produce a large amount of their food on just a small piece of land if you use some good intense farming practices. It is our expectation of food availability that is out of season that causes us to buy stuff from the other hemisphere when we should just adjust our diets to the local season and preserve food in season for use later.
Rayne @ 111
It is a misconception that the Amish do not use chemical pesticides. Unless the farmer is certified organic you need to know that their food is grown conventionally
EPU’d for certain, but just had to point this out, in case it didn’t already get mentioned:
Know the big hue and cry over Colony Collapse Disorder in bees? Apparently it’s not happening — or at least not being reported — in ORGANIC hives: http://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=974
Many thanks.
Can’t wait to read what you have to say about cloned meat and the FDA.
AirportCat @ 10
AC! I’ve missed you! I’m moving this weekend. :)
As for what I’m doing…I’ll be growing as much food as I can, bartering for some and shopping for what I must.
Kirk James Murphy, M.D. @ 110
I have to disagree with you. The free market gave us organics. It was a true grass roots movement that has succeeded beyond expectations.
Which economic model do you suggest we follow of not free markets? The central market model was a failure for the same reason that our current system is in trouble, corruption.
Slow Food movement is a free market response to corporate food. So the guy sold an Italian version of a egg mcmuffin and took his customers back, BUT he had to change his way of doing business to create the new movement. He did not dream of Utopian food system, he wanted to stay in business.
First rule of sustainability is that you have to make a profit. It nice to talk about clean food and philosophy but first and foremost supplying food is a business.
Phoenix Woman @ 115
I read this article but it seems to be more anecdotal that scientific. Most the organic farmers I know that need bee pollination for their crops had to import bees from Australia. Just for the record the quote from Einstein about bees is not true
We belong to an organic food coop (life members) and try to buy from local growers
as well. Still trying to find someone to raise me some chickens. Buy one spring lamb each year, raised by a trusted friend. Farm eggs at the Coop.
I bake our bread. Have mastered a sandwich loaf and am working on buns.
Grow our own potatoes, carrots, corn and winter squash. Tomatoes in a good year, but it’s dicey here on Lake Superior’s shores. Have been having good luck with eggplant the last two years. I make it into breakfast relish. Most of our greens get eaten by the deer.
grow for it! Ben
upcoaster @ 120
Cool,
I can’t grow eggplant to save my life.
I get a good flower, the it set fruit and then just stops growing.
For those of you with limited space…and those of us who like growing edibles in pots, I found The Bountiful Container. I’m growing strawberries on my fence this year.
Mitch @ 23
Mitch, thank you for you observations and – very genuinely – thanks also for discussing divergent opinions in a constuctive and courteous manner.
I hope you’ll continue to participate in discussions about food safety and GMO organisms here.
Your statement
means – as I read it -
1) genetic instability is not present in GMO organisms so new proteins don’t arise.
[no snark intended or desired here. My goal is to ensure I’m understanding your intended meaning, so please do correct me if I’ve misunderstood you.]
I respect your view arising from twenty years in genetics.
I also respect Dr. Charles Benbrook.
The National Academy of Sciences seems to think so well of Dr. Benbrook that he was Executive Director of the Board of Agriculture for seven years.
In a 2006 interview, Dr. Benbrook stated:
Mitch, as recently as last year this was Dr. Benbrook’s assessment.
Dr. Benbrook seems quite convinced that
“They don’t know whether the promoter gene, which has been moved into the plant to turn on the new piece of genetic material, will influence some other biosynthetic pathway that’s in the plant, turning on some natural process of the plant when it shouldn’t be turned on”
If he’s concerned promoter genes influence other biosynthetic pathways “turning on some natural process when it shouldn’t be turned on”, why is that GMO organisms can’t express new proteins (or new modifications of existing proteins) as Dr. Benbrook describes?
How can one say that GMOs can’t express novel proteins – proteins encoded in DNA not expressed until GM manipulation?
I don’t know if anyone’s mentioned this yet appropos of growing food at home, but in any area where treatment for termites has been historically common (e.g. DC with its sandy soil and humid conditions) people shouldn’t grow food stuff anywhere near building foundations, as the half life of the pesticides used in termite treatment have historically been long . . .
Wow that was fun. Thanks again Dr. Murphy for the hours of fun reading these comments and suggestions. Now on to the next thread. I was with friends today and I am hours behind in my reading.
lolo
PS I want more! really kjm you are in your own league here. Just like emptywheel. You have more smackdowns in your little fingers than I have seen, evah. (with real bugmen too!)
Organic George @ 119
Thanks. I thought that might be the case. I noted that the rest of the site tended towards the woo-woo, but wanted to see if any organic farmers here noticed any bee problems.
Is this new part of the genome that the biotechnologist has moved in, exempt from the laws of evolution from then on? It’s kind of ridiculous to think that it would be. But that’s really what the industry and the die-hard proponents of biotechnology are asking us to believe, that somehow once they move these trans-genes in–despite the fact that they don’t understand how many copies there are, they don’t understand how stable they’ll be, they don’t understand how stresses are going to effect them–that they’re not going to be influenced by the laws of evolution. It’s an irresponsible leap of faith that has been underwritten by our universities, our government, by the companies and by people that know better.
Mitch, as recently as last year this was Dr. Benbrook’s assessment.
Dr. Benbrook seems quite convinced that
“They don’t know whether the promoter gene, which has been moved into the plant to turn on the new piece of genetic material, will influence some other biosynthetic pathway that’s in the plant, turning on some natural process of the plant when it shouldn’t be turned on”
If he’s concerned promoter genes influence other biosynthetic pathways “turning on some natural process when it shouldn’t be turned on”, why is that GMO organisms can’t express new proteins (or new modifications of existing proteins) as Dr. Benbrook describes?
How can one say that GMOs can’t express novel proteins – proteins encoded in DNA not expressed until GM manipulation?
I’ve know Chuck Benbrook for years and am familiar with his work. It is a stretch for you to take his work where he questions the science of GMO, as well he should, and then make a leap to a definitive statement on proteins.
Kirk, I’m just reading the last few comments, but I really appreciate your effort and the efforts of others who disagree. I am particularly illiterate wrt the science, so it’s all progress for me.
Distract, divert, spin.
promoter genes influence other biosynthetic pathways
Biosynthetic pathways produce the building blocks of natural systems – fats, protein, carbohydrates.
Fats, proteins, carbohydrates are all categories of molecules. And each category contains molecules lethal to humans.
THe fundamental issue of the GMO genetic instability Dr. Benbrook elucidates is that derangement of any biosynthetic pathway is possible.
Plants make proteins, fats and carbohydrates on their own. Dr. Benbrook describes how biosynthetic pathways are disrupted by GMOs – and the fats, proteins, and carbohydrates all come from biosythetic pathways.
I would hope those with the opportunity to read Dr. Benbrook’s papers for several years would have the opportunity to master the basic concepts Dr. Benbrook set forth in his discussion.
However, comprehension of scientific literature requires basic reading comprehension.
The defininitive statement on proteins was the statement I quoted:
The sentences of mine you quote happen to be questions
Oh – Organic George?
Thanks for your work on behalf of the food industry.
Kirk,
Practical question: How can I be sure that the seeds I am ordering are not genetically modified? I ordered from what I thought was a great company in Maine. Kingsolver mentions in her book that the company buys from Monsanto – I think that’s the company.
Everything’s in the ground. But I will be successive planting.
Boston1775 @ 130
Monsanto did buy the largest conventional veg seed company in the past year. However, if you want Organic seeds you can Google for them. Seeds of Change is the oldest and there are many more.
Bad news is that most of the foundation grain seed, that is the seed that is kept in in quarantine for breeding, now is contaminated with GMO’s. Its a crime but a reality. There are only a few GMO veg seeds but you can expect more in the coming years.
I am deeply skeptical about this topic and about Kirk James Murphy, M.D. I don’t mean this as a personal attack so please hear me out. A bit of Googling tells me that Dr. Murphy is a psychiatrist. That’s commendable but does not indicate any expertise on the topic of food safety. So why make a point about sticking on the M.D.? It strikes me a bit like Dr. Laura.
I have a PhD but I don’t sign everything on the Internet “Dr. Fessway”… only at the university do I go by that title. Otherwise, it gives people the impression that I am claiming authority that I don’t really deserve.
The language that Murphy uses is not neutral. “Frankenfoods” — come on. This is a tipoff. Why is FDL all of a sudden enamored with this topic and with this guy?
Again, sorry for the ad-hominem tone, but I think it matters in this case. Delete me if I’m wrong.
So China sentenced their equivalent FDA head to death. Now that is accountability. Not that it will change much, but it might change a little.
Why are we importing wheat from China?
Soy is one of the tainted foods, but you can make your own tofu: cook the beans, blend with water to make soy milk, heat with lemon juice to curdle, strain with cheesecloth and put into form and let drain. Refridgerate.
Made some in the mid 70’s, turned out yummy, but was alot of work.
fessway @ 132
I have written to both Jane and Christy about this same problem. I have 20 years experience in Organics and have been very involved in GMO issues; all I can see is that he just copies reports from the web, from anti-GMO groups that peddle more emotions than facts. Don’t get me wrong I’m against GMO’s, but this is not the way to address this issue.
I have asked several times for his credentials for speaking on these topics and none have been forthcoming.
Kirk wrote:
“THe fundamental issue of the GMO genetic instability Dr. Benbrook elucidates is that derangement of any biosynthetic pathway is possible.”
Dr. Benbrook doesn’t elucidate anything. Elucidating would involve production of new data. Where are the data, Kirk?
Pseudoscientists produce quotes. Real scientists produce data.
“…Dr. Benbrook describes how biosynthetic pathways are disrupted by GMOs -…”
Where are the data, Kirk? How can a pathway be disrupted by an organism?
Why are you afraid of using an accurate term, like “transgenes”? Is it because you falsely claim that mutations in crops make them dangerous to eat, you are so profoundly, aggressively ignorant that you can’t even name a crop that millions of organic enthusiasts eat every day that was subjected to far more massive, random mutagenesis that is impossible to achieve by random integration of a transgene?
“… and the fats, proteins, and carbohydrates all come from biosythetic pathways.”
Wow, that’s profound. Didya learn that in medical school?
“I would hope those with the opportunity to read Dr. Benbrook’s papers for several years would have the opportunity to master the basic concepts Dr. Benbrook set forth in his discussion.”
Dr. Benbrook’s papers aren’t worth reading unless they contain new data derived from his own attempts to falsify his own hypothesis. That’s science.
“However, comprehension of scientific literature requires basic reading comprehension.”
Which you seem to lack, because you can’t seem to wrap your brain around the fact that applying the broad term “genetically modified organisms” exclusively to a tiny minority of genetically modified organisms, transgenics, is intellectually dishonest.
See if you have the integrity to answer a simple question: if mutations in crops are bad for the person eating them, why can’t you identify and publicly denounce the consumption of a common crop that was subjected to massive mutagenesis?