
[As always with guests here at FDL, please be polite and stay on topic in comments and questions. Any off-topic comments should be taken to the prior thread. And with that, I welcome Anthony Romero -- please join me in giving him a big FDL welcome -- CHS.]
The individual circumstances are ever-changing, but the underlying refrain remains constant: in the age of terror, the fight for upholding civil liberties must be a constant one, and it must be vigilant, because the Bush Administration's track record thus far has not been one of upholding the rule of law over whatever they deem to be politically exploitable or expedient in the moment. Not by a long shot.
Enter In Defense Of Our America: The Fight For Civil Liberties In The Age Of Terror. I honestly could not put this book down once I started reading it. The stories contained within are from ordinary Americans and others caught up in an extraordinary moment in our nation's history.
But, more than that, they are stories of that moment of decision when these people went from passive recipients of treatment by our government to active citizenship in fighting for the very rights for which our nation's founders had fought so many years before. And so many of these stories show the nuance and the very humanness that is far too often lacking in reporting on these subjects. This is how to tell a great story and, at the same time, illuminate the difficult and defining issues of our time.
And it is in these moments, these personal vignettes with their catalogue of everyday details that you realize it: this could be you. At any time, this could be you.
Imagine, for a moment, that this is your legal practice:
Government intelligence officials rifled through immigrants' computers, cell phones, and address books in a bid for new leads to track al-Qaeda operatives around the world. Monitoring just one phone number allowed intelligence officers to build a database of "potential terrorists" and build a web of gossamer connections. But in FBI field offices, NSA data was viewed as a distraction in the hunt for terrorist plots. Information gleaned from the NSA program often led to innocent people or dead ends. FBI agents joked that additional tips meant more "calls to Pizza Hut." Anyone calling a suspected dirty number became a potential target. Certainly anyone calling a friend they had no idea was a suspected al-Qaeda operative would likely be targeted.
As Dratel read through the New York Times article, his most immediate concern was about attorney-client privilege. Though the article didn't say specifically that attorneys and physicians were in the sweep, Dratel worried they might be. (The Department of Justice would later say that calls to doctors or lawyers "would not be categorically excluded from interception" as long as there was a suspected link to al-Qaeda and one party was outside of the United States.) More broadly, whether or not Dratel was a target, what the article made clear was that the NSA program flew in the face of the First, Fourth and Fifth Amendments — free speech, protection from unreasonable search and seizure, and due process. There was also the chilling effect the program might have on many Americans if they even suspected that they might be on the receiving end of a wiretap. It would change the way they operate, even subconsciously….
The warrantless wiretaps should have been a wake-up call for Americans who believed they had nothing to fear from the war on terror as long as they were doing nothing wrong. That blind trust in government, Dratel said, was naive. A look at American history showed that programs launched in times of emergency always became part of the larger system and they always left the door open for abuse of power….
"…And whether I was part of their listening program or not, I knew I had to do something."
At what point do public safety and the fight against threats to our national security lawfully and acceptably intersect with an incursion into our civil rights? Is that point here? Are you comfortable with these decisions being made without any public recourse or oversight, as was done when the NSA domestic spying program was implemented while the GOP-controlled Congress nodded yes to the Bush Administration's constant dip into the well of individual liberties? Or is whatever price we pay for safety just the price we pay? Is it at all lawful for a President to unilaterally decide to refuse to follow the law? And, if not, what recourse do we have to prevent further problems?
And then imagine that you are Cecilia Fire Thunder, the first female president of the Oglala Sioux in South Dakota, and the state's abortion ban bill gets signed into law by the state's governor.
…There had been abortion ban bills before. Governors had never signed them. She assumed this time would be no different. But if abortions were outlawed in the rest of the state, even Native American women would lose access to services.
"I was taken aback," Fire Thunder recalled later. "The way I saw it, Mike Rounds had just signed a law as a Catholic instead of as a governor."
The law's no-exceptions clause for rape or incest hit Fire Thunder particularly hard. Rape and sexual assault crimes were considered the purview of outside law enforcement; they couldn't be prosecuted in a tribal court. When accusations of rape surfaced, the federal authorities or criminal investigators from outside the reservation came in. The response had been lackluster, at best, for more than 15 years, Fire Thunder said. As a result, rape had become almost accepted and something that was swept under the rug because it was a crime without consequences. Women on the reservation had come to think of rape prosecution as a dim possibility, like the light on a flat field, miles off.
"I was furious once I realized what the law did," Fire Thunder said. "A group of white men who know nothing about women of my culture had made a decision that children could be created in an act of violence and women had no options. I don't think God wanted the future of the human race to be created in violence. I couldn't let this stand."
South Dakota was selected as the first test case in the fight to uphold and/or overturn Roe v. Wade because they have a small population, a malleable governor ripe for pressuring to sign the bill and cheap advertising test markets. Since then, there have been many more chip-away measures taken for reducing a woman's right to choose in America. Where do you stand on this issue, not just in your heart but publicly? Would you be willing to put yourself publicly on the line to fight such a law as Cecelia Fire Thunder did? Because that may be what it takes in the years to come in order to secure an individual's right to make the choices in their own lives about their own situation, after consulting their own heart, their partner, and their God.
My personal position is that it is no one else's business — that these people have enough to deal with after a violent rape or dangerous medical situation, and the last thing they need is some know-nothing outsider sticking his nose in where it does't belong. The life of the mother is a life as well, and far too often that is just tossed aside for so much public posturing and fundraising. It is well past time that the false prophets were called on their luxury office suites while the poor and violently abused still face the worst choices of their lives without the surrounding support that such funding could provide to reduce the need for abortions in the first place. Let's have THAT conversation more often instead of hurling sanctimonious stones, why don't we?
But it isn't simply things happening on American soil, either. Imagine that this is your father, your brother, your husband, your son:
…Khaled El-Masri was a German citizen of Lebanese birth, a father of six. When Beeson [his soon-to-be-attorney] was on vacation in Vermont, El-Masri was on his way to a holiday in Macedonia on December 31, 2003, when he was abducted by Macedonian officials and turned over to a team of CIA agents. He was transferred to a hotel room where he would spend the next 23 days in captivity, curtains drawn. The US government suspected him of terrorism. He was questioned about activities he knew nothing about and people he had never met.
On January 23, 2004, El-Masri's nightmare only got worse. Several men entered the room. They handcuffed him, blindfolded him, led him to a vehicle, and drove him to another building. There he was severely beaten and his clothes were sliced off his body. Men in black ski masks placed him in a diaper and a track suit, chained him at his wrists and ankles, placed earmuffs over his ears and eye pads over his eyes, blindfolded and hooded him. He was led to an airplane (leased by US government agents) and forced to its floor, facedown. He was injected with drugs and flown to what he would later find out was a secret base in Afghanstan. He spent months in the notorious "Salt Pit" — a secret US-run prison just north of Kabul — locked in a small, dirty, cold concrete cell. He was interrogated and tortured.
As it turned out, this was a case of mistaken identity. But the CIA continued to hold El-Masri incommunicado in Afghanistan long after it realized its mistake. Five months after his abduction, he was finally led out of his cell, blindfolded, handcuffed, chained to the seat of a plane, flown to Albania and — without explanation — abandoned on a hillside at night. He was never charged with anything. Beeson and her team at the ACLU had filed a federal lawsuit against CIA director George Tenet, the unidentified CIA agents, and the corporations that owned the aircraft used to transport El-Masri.
The El-Masri case came more than a year after the pictures of torture at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq came to light. But this was different. This was a case of a German citizen whisked off the streets in Macedonia and "rendered" to a military base to be tortured by his American jailers.
Think it couldn't happen to you because you aren't a Muslim American and whatever you are doing is within the bounds of law? Think again. Read this about what happened in a small town in Pennsylvania when a religious man on the school board hooked up with a well-funded group whose purpose was to overthrow scientific theory in the name of God.
The Seattle-based organization's [The Discovery Institute] intelligent design crusade started with an article in the Wall Street Journal by a professor at a Christian college in Spokane, Washington, that focused on a biologist who was chastised for discussing intelligent design in the science classroom. The professor, Dr. Stephen Meyer, was friendly with conservatives Howard and Roberta Ahmanson, wealthy religious philanthropists, and together they hatched the idea of creating the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture. Dr. Meyer is its director. Other backers include stalwarts in the conservative movement like Philip Anschutz and Richard Mellon Scaife. The Ahmansons were by far the biggest supporters of the Discovery Institute, having provided some 35 percent of the $9.3 million the science center raised from its inception. Mr. Ahmanson is on the Discovery Institute's board….What later became crystal clear was that the Discovery Institute had a very specific agenda in mind. In 1999, an internal document from the organization, known as the Wedge Document, suddenly appeared on the Internet. It described not only the Discovery Institute's goals but how the group was prepared to accomplish them. The document said that the idea that human beings are created in the image of God was "one of the bedrock principles on which Western civilization was built." People like Darwin, Marx and Freud had "infected virtually every area of our culture" and their ideas needed to be "overthrown."
And then imagine that you are a high school science teacher in that community. Could you stand and fight for science and not pure theology dressed up as pandas being taught in the classroom as Bert Spahr did? Even in a community caught up in the religious fervor stirred at the time by a long-term campaign to convert your town to the way of thinking of the tiny group of evangelicals who had worked their way onto a majority on the school board — even as they were not close to a majority in the community?
What In Defense of Our America taught me more than anything else is that we must have an engaged and active electorate in this nation of ours. We must find a way to wake them up and get them to pay attention. For that is the only way that things will begin to change — a collective demand. We are better than this, and it is past time that we stood up and said so.
Many of the Bush administration's post-9/11 strategies have upset the basic system of checks and balances that we learned about in fifth-grade social studies. The genius of Hamilton and Madison was to build a necessary check against abuse of power. They knew that if you concentrated too much power in any one branch, that power would lead to abuse. That's why they designed three coequal branches of government, with each serving as a check on the other two. But that delicate balance has been upset in ways large and small. We had the president's unilateral decision to use the NSA to intercept phone calls and e-mail of Americans without any judicial review or congressional approval, in violation of of the Constitution and federal law. We find portions of the USA Patriot Act that allow the FBI to seize a person's internet records with no judicial review at all. And the Military Commissions Act of 2006 stripped detainees of their habeas rights and undermined the Supreme Court's ruling in Hamden v. Rumsfeld that had restored some semblance of checks and balances. The fact that President Bush could climb back on his horse after being thrown by the largely conservative U.S. Supreme Court showed the extent to which this president was able to cudgel a quiescient Congress. And it remains to be seen whether the new, Democratic-controlled, Congress will be any different beyond the rhetoric.
Our civil liberties are fluid so long as we allow the government alone to define them for us. It is only where we, as an active public, stand up for our Constitution, for the Bill of Rights, for the rule of law, and our own rights as individuals that the true power of the American public is felt. We do so each and every time we vote. And we do so through our daily actions, and our interactions with those who are elected to represent us and who we expect — or who we ought to expect anyway — to live up to the fiduciary obligations that they undertake on our behalf as part of the social contract inherent in a representative republic such as ours. We are better than this, and we would all do well to live up to what we ought to be and not what we are at any given moment in our nation's history.
We are, in America, that ever possible potential, moving ahead so long as we strive to meet both our aspirations in consideration of what is fair and just, not just for the short term, but for a long time to come, and our obligations to uphold what is right not just for ourselves but for every generation that follows us.
And with that, I welcome Anthony Romero, Executive Director of the ACLU, and open the floor to questions.
Related posts:
- FDL Book Salon: Idiot America with Charles Pierce
- A Tale of Two Nominees: Why Civil Liberties “Extremists” are Disappointed in Obama
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Dahr Jamail, The Will to Resist: Soldiers Who Refuse to Fight in Iraq and Afghanistan
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Paul Starobin, After America: Narratives for the Next Global Age
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Richard McCormack, Editor of Manufacturing a Better Future for America





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I have been looking forward to discussing this book all week. It is a wonderful read, and an important one — because it raises a number of questions that active citizens need to be asking themselves. That they are so similar to so many of the questions that the Founders were asking themselves so many years ago means that we need to keep working toward better answers. Really valuable work, Anthony, and I thank you for doing it.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 1
I’m glad to be here. and I really appreciate the interest you are showing in the book. In writing the book, I felt that we have to begin a national dialogue about what it means to be an American, what defines us as a people, and the need to stand up for our rights. Our democracy can’t be a spectator sport.
Anthony at 4 — I couldn’t agree more. Speaking of which, any particulars on the gutting of the civil rights division at the DoJ that you would like to discuss? I have found all of the information coming out about that particularly troubling given the potential for mischief on voter suppression and reversal of precedents from lack of enforcement.
I think thChristy Hardin Smith @ 3
I think the whole debate about the possible resignation of Alberto Gonzales is only focusing on part of the problem. As you point out, the Justice Department has been increasingly politicized during Gonzales’ tenure. The selective enforcement of the nation’s civil rights laws, the hostility to defending important precedent, etc. As one example, the ACLU had to pick up a case (and win it) on behalf of women janitors in NY schools after the Justice Department jettisoned the case. After Gonzales leaves, it will take us years to clean up the mess. Not to mention the need to rebuild public trust in the Department that is at all time low.
Just Amazon’d it. I’ve been wondering for a while if we on the left couldn’t find common ground with libertarians on this set of issues. I saw the audience reaction to Ron Paul on Real Time Friday night and heard Goldwater quoted this morning about keeping the religious fanatics from running our lives. I have to think we could make some magic… Libertarians have no business supporting today’s republicans.
Thank you for writing and reviewing this book. It’s in my newly shopped-out Amazon basket; I urge anyone who wants to buy it to click through on the link at the upper left. FDL gets a tiny bit when books are bought this way.
Mr. Romero, do you see this week’s discouraging vote to give the President another blank check for his Iraq Occupation as something that will cause Americans to become more actively engaged in our Democracy or, if discouraged by the DeeCee Democratic leadership’s double-talk, less?
AlexandriaCynic at 7 — We’ve seen more libertarian-minded conservatives like former Reagan DoJ official Bruce Fein and former Rep. Bob Barr of GA speak out more frequently over the last couple of years. And, to be honest, I never thought I’d be finding common ground with Bob Barr in my lifetime, but he has done quite a bit of public speaking about the need to protect civil liberties issues.
Welcome Anthony – going to order your book through the FDL Amazon link today – and thanks to you Christy for finding and recommending what is clearly an important book.
My question is will your publisher be sure to bring your book to the attention of CSpan and MSM of your availibilty to appear for book chats?
And lastly will you being doing a book tour that includes the west coast? Thank you for being here today.
Anthony — While I’m thinking about it, I know you all have done an enormous amount of work on restoring habeas under the Military Commissions Act. Rachel and I have corresponded on that issue back and forth, but I would love it if you could give us an update on how you think things are going. Sen. Leahy had a hearing last week that was encouraging, although very brief, and I’m wondering how much push from all of us would be helpful — and where the best points of leverage might be — in moving that process forward in both the Senate and House.
Hi, Anthony. Do you think Congress will continue to persue an investigation of abuses at the DoJ when/if Gonzales resigns, or will they say “mission accomplished” and call it a day? Do you think they see it as systemic abuse?
AlexandriaCynic @ 5
AlexandriaCynic:
You could be reading from our play book. There is enormous common ground that progressives can establish with libertarians and conservatives. When you get the book (and btw, thanks for buying it on Amazon — really), you will see that the first blurb inside the book is from Bob Barr. There is another from David Keene, from American Conservative Union.
One of the first things we did early in my tenure was reach out to Bob Barr and other conservatives like Dick Armey. And when Barr lost his Congressional race, we put him on retainer as a lobbyist to reach out to the Republican party.
The defense of civil liberties should not and cannot be a partisan agenda. I always say that if we let the ACLU become the civil liberties wing of the Democratic party, we will have failed.
Also in writing the book, In Defense, we were very conscious about writing a book for folks outside the true believers. I told a group of largely ACLU members at the first signing that this book was written for folks who DON’T believe in the ACLU. We hope that the stories we have picked and the straight way we tell those stories without lecturing or prejudging will help people realize that the defense of OUR America is what liberals and conservatives can agree on.
Jeez, whata meaty post CHS. Is this book a depressing read, or perhaps shines a little light on the path out of this authoritarian cult we find ourselves in the grip of.
Perhaps Anthony could answer this.
Anthony at 13 — I was especially pleased with the efforts that you all made in the religious liberties discussions. Far too often, I see the discussion being “this is anti-Christian,” when I think that people truly have no sense of what it could mean were religion governmentally sanctioned and controlled. Freedom of expression and religion is essential to it maintaining its individual tenets and beliefs, and it never ceases to amaze me how folks fail to understand the consequences for not adhering to that. I have relatives who are LDS and, honestly with all of the history of the Mormon church, you’d think they would be the first to want a separation of church and state. The way the GOP has structured their political infiltration for electoral purposes the past few years, though, that has been distorted and eroded significantly.
TeddySanFran @ 6
The Democrats will continue to disappoint us if we allow them to. The same of the Republican leadership. When the book went to print, we said that it remained to be seen whether this new Democratically controlled Congress will be different beyond the rhetoric. For instance, I am enormously frustrated at the lack of progress we have made at restoring habeas. It is a cornerstone of our democracy, and the last Congress stripped it away for a group of detainees. There has been no more egregious civil liberties violation than that — in my mind — and we need to restore habeas.
That’s why on June 26, we have a day of action in DC to restore habeas. We have buses coming from all over the country, and you can sign up for it on our website. http://www.aclu.org.
Let ‘em hear you loud and clear.
Oilfieldguy at 13 — Actually, I found it incredibly uplifting. We know about all of these issues because the system worked in ferreting them out — and because they had dedicated lawyers and citizens working to right the wrongs. That is incredibly motivating for me.
Oilfieldguy @ 12
It ain’t a depressing read. I promise. I’m an optimist and some of the folks you meet in the book are AMAZING. Buy it, read it, take action and get inspired.
I was wondering if Anthony could comment on the Vice President’s speech yesterday at West Point. It was the clearest indictation yet that Cheney though the Constitution and foreign treaties were for what Arnie would call “Girlie-men”. Why can’t Cheney be impeached, or called on the carpet for stuff like that? Are we really living in Ben Franklin’s worst nightmare?
It’s disturbing when the GOP attacks an opponent for being a member of the ACLU, as John Doolittle did to Charlie Brown last year. It’s done with the same twisted sneer that Monica Goodling said “liberal” at this week’s HJC hearing. I hope this outreach by the ACLU to the GOP will succeed in helping them understand that protecting civil liberties is not a partisan issue.
For authoritarians, though, protecting civil liberties is hardly worthwhile.
Mr. Romero – thanks for visiting with FDL today. Unfortunatly, I have to work this afternoon, can’t stay for the chat.
Again, thanks for visiting, and thanks for your stewardship of ACLU.
Hey, Anthony, this book looks quite interesting and, as people are commenting already, like it could cross over some of the traditional battle-lines we (or the media) draw using ideology. Are the stories chosen intentionally (and would you tell is if they were!? :)) to paint the ACLU as moderate instead of super-left?
I wanted to let all the fdl friends know that anthony is the man responsible for making the tv series, FREEDOM FILES happen. He understands media, the new forms, and how to use it to tell our progressive stories. AT a time when we know all too many heads of established organizations on our side are nervous about anything new, Anthony keeps pushing the envelope and finds new ways to reach and expand… mozeltov on the book
anthony -
thank you for being here today…
and i hope it’s ok for me to say “thank you” for our local aclu who stood up for us (in MA!), when the police were photographing people for later identification just because we attended peace vigils. the chief of police said we were a potential threat to society.
a small thing compared to what you describe in your book… but it was much appreciated.
anthony @ 16
thank you for letting us know… i will try to be there.
selise at 24 — There is quite a bit about the TALON program and other Defense department civilian surveillance programs in the book as well. There was so much to discuss — including some very moving discussions with the family of John Walker Lindh — but I thought my write-up had gotten too long already. Really, this is an amazing read. I’m going to buy a few copies and donate them to local libraries.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 17
I haven’t seen the text of Cheney’s speech, so I can’t comment on the substance.
The idea, however, that we need to be “tough”, and “take the gloves off” (one of the chapters in the book) is not new. And that attitude, that arrogance, that conscious disregard for international norms and rule of law is precisely what got us into the mess to begin with.
In terms of impeachment, I think we have to put pressure on the new Congress to get to the bottom of some of these scandals. Like the NSA wiretapping programs, the use of torture, the establishment of secret prisons, the use of “rendition” to get information from detainees. We need to flesh out the record of the civil liberties violations that have happened under Bush’s administration. Because this government has largely secretive and tried to keep information out of the public domain.
With the information, then we can focus on next steps.
newtonusr @ 19
Thanks for coming. And stay in touch. Through our website.
anthony,
I’d just like to say Thank You for all your work.
Sk3ptik @ 20
I actually don’t think the ACLU is super left. In a lot of ways, we are “super conservative” — conserving the basic rights for all people in America. It’s true that we believe in the rights of lgbt people for instance, or for the right to choose. But we also believe in the right of Fred Phelps to express his hateful ideology. And in the past, we have defended Rush Limbaugh and Jerry Falwell.
That’s why if we can get folks to focus on what we do and why we do it, maybe they can see the importance of standing up for civil liberties.
Hi Anthony, thank you (and Rachel) so much for being here today. You have not only managed to do such valient public service for so long but bear the full brunt of right wing assault at the same time.
Does it feel like the climate is changing and that the country can be more open to what you’re trying to do? And which of the right wing narratives would you most like to knock a hole in?
anthony @ 27 and Joe Klein’s conscience @ 17 –
here’s a bit from cheney’s speech that might be what Joe Klein’s conscience was refering to:
We hear that career DoJists are horrified at what’s happening under BushCo — in your organization’s dealings with the department, Mr Romero, do you find that the authoritarian cultists hold sway? Have the loyalists been sufficiently seeded throughout the DoJ that Congressional investigations cannot root them out?
Also, do you expect a new President will abandon these exciting new Executive powers, regardless of party or prediliction?
robert greenwald @ 21
This is like a web post from my mother. Robert is a real friend, in the interest of full disclosure.
I hope to see you when I’m in LA toward the end of the month. Will call you. Take care, and thanks for the support, as always
anthony @ 28
Usually, if you have a website and comment at fdl, your name will have a link to your website. Not meant to pick at nits, but those kind of links help.
Anthony @13:
Yet isn’t the ACLU generally regarded as a liberal interest group? I agree that civil liberties should not be a partisan issue but in conservative circles the issues of “rights” generally, and “civil rights” in particular are viewed as liberal.
Welcome Anthony, and thanks so much for ACLU’s work. wrt to cases in which the Government raises the state secrets defense, are you starting to seen the courts push back on that?
Scarecrow — That’s a great question. I’ve been wondering if those cases aren’t being slowly greymailed to death as well.
Jane Hamsher @ 29
Jane,
I do think the pendulum has begun to swing in our direction. There is much more willingness to ask the tough questions — from Democrats, and Republicans, and from the press.
In the immediate aftermath after 9/11, most folks were too worried and nervous to ask the tough questions. that’s why we kept arguing that we needed to keep America Safe AND Free. Not one, not the other. Both.
The right wing narrative that drives me most nuts is the one on “compassionate conservatism”. Read the sections on Matt Limon in the book, and you will see what a farce that is.. He was an 18 year old boy sentenced for 17 years in prison for having sex with another teenage boy who was just shy of his 15th birthday. Tell me that’s compassionate…
Also, the issue of “caging” was brought up by Goodling recently. As this practice is illegal, how are the Republicans able to continue the practice with impunity?
Jane — the passages about the South Dakota abortion ban took me right back in time to when we were posting quite a bit on it, trying to get support for their ballot initiative. It was such a great story of what a few very dedicated people, willing to do the tough work, could do to change minds in their community. And reading about all of the issues that had been either swept under the rug or altogether ignored for the Native American population there? It was painful, but illuminating in a lot of ways.
Thank you for coming to the Lake, Anthony. Your book is in my reading queue; I am looking forward to reading it.
Christy says, “Think it couldn’t happen to you because you aren’t a Muslim American and whatever you are doing is within the bounds of law? Think again.” This is absolutely true; I’m aware of a case where a gentleman who owns a small business in my town made a snarky but ill-advised comment within earshot of customers and found himself taken for questioning by four men in dark suits and dark vehicles within hours of that comment. They quizzed him not only about his snarky comment, but about his family in a nearby country, even though he is a naturalized citizen. They made it clear they knew everything about him. He was later released, but the story has never made the media here; the average person in this town has no clue that merely being snarky in your own place of business and foreign-born could get you “detained”.
Anthony at 39 — The Matt Limon sections were particularly disturbing to me, as a former prosecutor. That case seemed like a blatant abuse of prosecutorial discretion, and was just appalling, especially given his functionality issues and the consent issue from the other boy. And his parents’ reaction to his homosexuality broke my heart — having had friends go through similar “you need to just get over your gay phase thing” issues. You chronicle that particular story in a very poignant, and human way — very well done.
Here is the complete Cheney Transcript of his speech at West Point.
We in the US will not be defined by his depravity regarding the Geneva Convention or the rule of law. The man is an utter disgrace.
Rayne at 42 — The fact that this sort of thing made me wary on occasion last year when we had our foreign exchange student living with us is telling of the sort of chilling effect it can have. That I could potentially put her or my family at risk just by blogging and calling into question the actions of my government by exercising my right to free speech? Crossed my mind more than once. And that is chilling indeed. (Not that it stopped me, mind you. *g*)
selise @ 30
What Cheney fails to understand is that this isn’t about the “killers”. It’s not about the guys in the orange jumpsuits.
This is about us.. Who we are as Americans, what we see in the mirror. Basic American values that have served us for centuries.
innocent til proven guilty
the right to an attorney
the right to rebut the evidence against you in a court of law
the right to due process and equal protection of the laws
That is what makes us a great nation. Our belief in those aspirations and those ideals made real everyday life.
That’s what Cheney should have said at the graduation ceremony. But then again, we would need a different vice president to communicate that message.
Oilfieldguy @ 38
The point is that we have to hold them accounatable. They get away with it only if we let them.
Since David Addington likely helped Cheney craft his speech, I wouldn’t be looking for an affirmation of our commitment to human rights over unchecked executive authority from either of them any time soon.
Anthony:
Given the politicization of the DOJ and the appointment of more and more GOP “true believer” judges, do you feel that the operational function of our legal system is being subverted? It is great that the ACLU does the work it does but aren’t the institutional impediments to enforcement and redress increasing making that work increasingly difficult?
Anthony at #46
Very well said.
Hi, Jane and Christy.
Well, and what always boggles me is that our justice system is designed to catch the guilty – so if a detainee is, in fact, a “killer,” it can and should come out in a court of law. Especially if the detainees’ guilt is a clear as the Bush administration would have us believe. If they are so clearly in violation of the law, why is the administration so afraid to try them under the law?
Christy Hardin Smith @ 45
Exactly. It’s why I’ve continued to write under a pseudonym, and why I don’t disclose to most people I know the name of my blog or that I blog at all. It’s less about me than my kids; what happens if I suddenly disappear, without explanation? How would they handle it? THEY already know how I feel, but THEY might be compelled to do something just as they did with that poor small businessman only a few miles from my home, should someone I meet personally take affront at my exercise of so-called Free Speech…
Which does bring up a question: what does one do if they get detained, between now and whenever we salvage this democracy? There’s no primer for this, I’m afraid.
TeddySanFran @ 31
I hear the same thing about career officials in the Justice Department. I’ve been told that morale has never been lower, and remember that John Aschcroft was Gonzales’ predecessor. That’s saying a lot.
I don’t think that the return of these executive powers is going to be fixed with the outcome of the elections as easily as some may think. We need to get the major candidates on record about whether they will close Gitmo, restore habeas, stop wiretapping of Americans.
This may not be popular with a bunch of folks here, but the precursor to the Patriot Act was a law the Pres. Clinton signed into existence in 1996.
The war on terror is a lot like the Cold War. I fear that the paradigm will be one that both Democrats and Republicans alike will cling to in the assertion of additional executive powers.
That’s why we need an independent and questioning citizenry.
Greetings to Anthony and thanks as always to Jane and Christy.
Having just addressed the Georgia branch of the ACLU (Ground zero on a lot of civil rights and first amendment issues, I was really struck by the motto that “freedom cannot defend itself”. It encapsulates everything we all have been fighting for. Wish I had thought of it but since I didn’t, I shamelessly use it!
Is the right to know how our government is functioning, even in the “national security” arena, something the ACLU has particularly focused on, or is particularly focused on?
Specifically, has the ACLU considered how to get Congress to do a thorough review and reform of the classification authority of “state secrets” in the Executive Branch, so that classified secrets start to reclaim their value? [Because abuse and overuse of classification authority reduces the value of the status, and therefore diminishes the effect and the point of classification in the first place.]
Oilfieldguy @ 33
sorry. aromero@aclu.org. my first time on fdl, i’m embarrassed to say
Joe at 54 — As always, great to see you. Hope you all are enjoying the new surroundings.
anthony @ 39
this is something that drives me nuts. i’m so glad that the aclu worked to counter the idea that being free means we can’t be safe. i don’t think they’re competing imperatives – i think they’re complimentary.
when law enforcement is going around investigating quakers – they’re being distracted from the important work that is needed to keep us safe.
when law enforcement is rounding up muslims – they’re discouraging people in the muslim community from coming forward if they have information of use to law enforcement.
and when law enforcement works in unnecessary sercrecy – incompetence and stupid decisions don’t see the light of day that will lead to improvement and correction.
sorry for the rant… a pet peeve of mine.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 41
thanks Christy. It’s probably the part of the book that moved me the most as well.
For those of you who are looking for the ACLU website, I’ve linked it here and in the above post as well.
anthony @ 46
Amen.
Anthony, thanks for your work and thanks for the ACLU.
As the
firstcurrent wave of “Green Scare” Federal trials of eco-vandals moves to the sentencing phase, Judge Aiken has ruled the defendants are subject to terrorism “enhancements” (double-good Newspeak, that) requested by the US Attorney even though:1) the defendants were not convicted of terrorism, but other crimes
2) the jury never considered nor approved this finding of “terrorism”
IANAL, but I thought the Supremes rejected the sentencing guidelines in part because they imposed punishment not chosen by the jury of the defendant’s peers.
Other than the fact DOJ has gone down a rathole and Abu needs a new distraction, is there any Constitutional basis for these post-conviction “enhancements” untained by the jurors’ scrutiniy?
And might you have any broader observations about the possible political role of the Green Scare prosecutions and the SHAC 7 cases as “trial runs” of onerous prosecutorial discretion to be used in future suppression of legal political speech?
Having a great time. New horizons. And they are vast. We continue in the fight, however. Looking forward to the fifth of June. I hope everybody saw Larry Johnson’s piece on Treason is as treason does at No Quarter and DKOS.
This was in response to Christy at 57
Joe Wilson @ 63
anthony @ 52
Do you know the name of Clinton’s law? Thanks.
Woops! I wasn’t throwing rocks at you Anthony about the link to your website. It is an automatic thing here at fdl and tends to be useful. Thanks for the link.
I also urge you to check out http://www.juneaction.org for more on our June 26 Day of Action to Restore Law & Justice and http://www.findhabeas.com for more… well, habeas.
anthony @ 53
This is the scariest thing of all to me. The disregard of the rules that even the Bush appointees and DC career veterans know must be followed if this society is going to remain free. Again, not a left-right thing at all. cf Paul O’Neill, Christy Whitman, Powell, even Comey.
Thanks Christy, and a big wave to the Ambassador.
Rachel at 67 — Have you all been seeing much success in the habeas push? I was very pleased to see the hearing in Senate Judiciary this past week, but I would love to see more of that sort of discussion. And not such a brief one. Anything we can do to help push this forward, let me know…
Kevster @ 47
There are impediments. The increasingly conservative nature of the courts is a big one. And sometimes it is difficult not to feel that the odds are entirely against us.
I also tell the lawyers at the ACLU, that sometimes we have to bring cases and demand accountability, even if we lose.
You set the stage for the next battle. You shape public opinion. You create a record to come back to later.
In the book, I talk about a case re Khaled el Masri. This is a tough case to win. It’s about a man who was tortured and detained for 5 months, after being whisked away by the CIA in Macedonia, and held in Bagram. Then when they found out they had the wrong guy, the put him on another CIA flight and brought him to Albania.
This will be a tough case to win. the govt. is invoking state secrets privilege. I will get to that below.
but we need to bring the case and demand accountability. even if we lose.
in 1944, the aclu lost the case of japanese american internment. but time vindicated us. I take the same lesson now.
sorry if this response was too long. the question was a good one
Joe, we too are excited to see Paris Hilton enter jail on June Fifth. Oh, is there someone else being sentenced that day, too? *g*
oops – accidental duplication in lieu of edit. sorry mods. please delete.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 57
Woo hoo! An American hero revisits the waters of the Lake – always an honor indeed and three cheers for Mr. Wilson and the incomparable Ms. Plame!
;~)
What a pleasure to have Anthony join us at the Lake – and to talk about the ACLU’s important work.
Attorney Beeson worked with my son when he was a teen and participated in the ACLU’s awesome work against the CDA law which threatened free speech on the Internet – and without their work, I’m not sure we’ve have the blogosphere we have today.
Thank you ACLU!
Anthony — one of the connection points on El-Masri and so many of the others is Gen. Geoffry Miller who was initially in charge of detentions in Afghanistan, moved to Guantanimo and then in to Iraq. I rarely hear his name mentioned in connection with this in the media and I think he is still at the Pentagon. Can you shed any light on Miller and/or the detention policy issues and whether or not any reforms at all have been initiated past the stalled reworking of the Army Manual?
When I saw that Anthony was here, I wanted to say hello and say how much I respect what he and the ACLU are doing on the front lines of the battle for freedom — because freedom cannot defend itself!
newspaperbrat @ 73
Rachel @ 49
That’s exactly the point that military officers have been making. We have the finest system of military justice in the world, and we should have used it, rather than try to make up a jerry-rigged system of justice that doesn’t comport with American ideals and values.
Take Gitmo, for instance. Over 700 people were once detained there. Now we have about 340 or so. The vast majority of the Gitmo detainees were merely released. if they were so dangerous to begin with, why did we release them? And if they were innocent, why were they there to begin with?
Those are the questions we should be demanding answers to.
I would love to know some numbers on how many of the detainees at Gitmo were picked up via paid bounties and ended up being either tribal rivalries or some other non-terrorism rationale. I’ve heard the number is quite high, but I have not been able to find any substantive documentation on exact numbers on this, either from the Pentagon or other sources. If anyone knows of a good one — or has a link — I would much appreciate it.
Joe Wilson @ 52
Thanks Joe. We worked hard to figure out that motto and asked our members for help.
Freedom can’t defend itself and that’s why we’re here.
anthony @ 56
But not the last, I hope?
And welcome, Ambassador Wilson!
Mr. Romero,
I’m at the office today, supposed to be prepping a civil rights trial (instead of dipping the toes inthe cool refreshing waters of the Lake), and the minute my trial is over, this is the first bit of non-ofice reading I’m going to do.
Please let me tell you how much I admire the work the ACLU does and how ticked off i get when people refer to it as left wing or liberla group as if to trivialize what you do as a merely politcal point of view.
Like AUSA’s, your job is to be beyond politics and take positions solely based on doing the right thing.
I have long admired the work of your outstanding organization, not th least of which as when it takes up the cause of unpopular litgants inthe name of a larger principle.
For example, how hard it must have been to decide to represent the right of neo -NAzi’s to march through a Jewish community in the name of preserving the First Ammendment.
But it is how society and the law treats the least popular and the least powerful that marks its commitment to the rule of law.
There has been a great deal of discussion on these threads lately about why people of intregrity don’t throw off the constraints f the rule of law when they are bound to secrecy and find that under the rules of secrecy, dark deeds have been committed.
Someone mentioned in an unflattering way a speech Dick Durbin made where he said that information he had learned in an secret intelligence briefing contradicted what was being offered as the reasons to vote for a particular bill, and commenters thought he should have thrown out the rule related to that secrecy and gone public.
The fine work of your organization makes clear what a slippery slope that is. Once you throw out the rule of law, it is gone. You cannot invoke it selectively or when it is easy or convenient.
Your organization makes that clear when it makes the hard choces and come out in favor of protecting our Constitutional way of life.
Thank you all so much for what you do.
P.S. Is the “Dratel” in the first block quote Josh Dratel?
pow wow @ 53
This is one of the biggest challenges we confront in our work on national security issues. The state secrets privilege gets invoked in almost every case.
From freedom of information to torture and rendition to illegal wiretapping.
And what you have seen is the expansion of the state secrets privilege, from a largely evidentiary privilege invoked by heads of federal agencies, to a doctrine invoked by private corporations and govt officials from saying things that might embarrass the govt or jeopardize their opertions.
We hope to battle this out in a couple of existing cases, and if we don’t prevail, we will need Congress to take a fresh look at it, as we cannot allow “state secrets” to become an excuse for secret govt.
anthony @ 53
i fear you are correct… most of our presidential candidates seem more interested in assuming the powers of an imperial presidency and not in renouncing them.
if we are to be responsible Democrats we can’t give our politicians a pass.
i wish you could write a few questions for our presidential debates (both parties)
kirk murphy @ 62
The Supreme Court said the Sentencing Guidlelines were permissive not mandatory.
Many of the judges still treat them as if nothing has changed.
We have. In fact, it’s been one of our most successful campaigns to date in terms of mobilizing activists. We already have tens of thousands of signatires for our online petition, and expect to have 100,000 hand-delivered to the Hill on June 26. We’re working with other groups like Amnesty, National Religious Campaign Against Torture and others to put together a big program of speakers, artists, etc., all aimed at sending a message to the Hill that the American people won’t stand for these violations of our core values. Habeas corpus MUST be restored.
I’ll email you in the coming week to talk about specific strategies and ways we can work together on this.
selise @ 56
You are absolutely right. I couldn’t have said it any better
anthony @ 71
Ah Sheez! grey mail defense BY the gov’t? That seems so backwards.
Joe Wilson @ 54
Welcome, Joe. I think you’re going to have a second book in you, namely your experiences traveling around and all the progressive candidates and groups and issues you have shown up and suppported in the past few years. There are a lot of them. You’ve been tireless and done amazing, very important work and created no small amount of good will.
Well you have a really hot wife and a good life. I guess it’s just smart to keep plugging nickles into that karma bank, no?
kirk murphy @ 60
We have been worried about the sentence enhancements and the expansion of the definition of “domestic terrorism” to encompass advoacy that would normally be protected by the first amendment. It was funny, I was reading yesterday’s NYT and saw precisely this story in the paper, and I rememember some of the conservative pundits criticizing our public statements about how the Patriot Act could be used to go after groups like Greenpeace and other enviro groups. And of course, that’s now turned out to be true.
We should take a closer look at the issues you spell out here. Thanks for being in touch.
Rachel @ 86
Good to see you doing so much good work at the ACLU, Rachel. Glad to see you having an impact and thanks for helping to set up this chat and being here. You’re one of the good ones.
Jane at 89 and Ambassador Wilson,
Aren’t you just proving the old adage about “living well is the best….” –well, you know?
Terror is just a crime, painting your name on a building is nearly the same thing as throwing a snowball at it…
This is not a war. First it was retaliation or revenge. It was a naked act of aggression, an invasion of a country with a rich history, (the birthplace of civilization), because it was led by a Castro wannabe!??
Give me a break. This war was started to line Rhett Butler’s pockets. Sorry, a rant.
I just picked up the butts in the parking lot after my team of friends do the work Americans don’t want to do.
What can the average burger flipper do with no $ to contribute.
I vote . But I have no assurance it’s counted.
What can we do NOW to secure our Vote?????
Without the vote; We been had!
Arthur
You are too kind. I have been doing nothing more than be a good citizen and participating fully in the conversation that is our democracy. It is the candidates and those of you who are organizing the netroots that deserve the credit.
You are correct about my wife, however!
Jane Hamsher @ 88
thanks lhp – I may well have completely misundersttod, but IIRC* part of the Supreme’s reasoning that the guidelines wee not mandatory is inconsistentcy with “trial by one’s peers”.
The terrorism “enhancements” aren’t mandatory, but are requested at prosecutors’ discretion, and the judge decides without jury input.
The question I was stumbling towards regards
1) the constitutionality of these post-jury “findings”
and
2) implications as the operational definition of “terrorism” leading to “enhancements” becomes ever more fluid and merely transactional.
Rachel at 86 — Excellent — I look forward to it. Thanks much!
Anthony,
I’m not sure I agree that our time should be called the ‘age of terror’. That sounds like a pro-war frame.
I don’t think it’s helpful for otherwise reasonable folks to be fanning the flames of fear in this way.
Is there really something fundamentally unique about our time WRT asymmetric warfare?
Those who would take away our freedoms would like you to think so.
Trying to, especially as I am getting to be about as old as the adage itself.
looseheadprop @ 91
Rachel @ 85
Amen. I’ve just signed the petition, and wish that I could make it to the June 26 event.
Eureka Springs @ 63
There was a trilogy of laws passed in 1996 that were in reponse to the oklahoma city bombing. one focused on immigrants, one focused on prisoner’s rights, and one on terrorism. they were the harbingers of things to come. email me on tuesday and I will send you the actual sites. don’t have them off the top of my head. aromero@aclu.org. thanks
I’m off. Thank Anthony for all you do. Joe
Siun @ 72
Thanks. Ann actually figures prominently in the book, with picture and all. And give my best to your son.
Anthony, just saw your response above. Thank you. Lauren Regan of the CLDC in Eugene is very knowledgable and a great resource.
I’m not certain if the ACLU director has even a guest of the U of Oregon’s Land Air Water conference (enviro law with a whole lotta practical law about free speech, legal demonstration, and civil disobedience).
ELAW (aka PIELC) is every year at the first weekend in March.
I’d love to buy you a beer after your keynote address next year.
Anthony @83:
And what you have seen is the expansion of the state secrets privilege, from a largely evidentiary privilege invoked by heads of federal agencies, to a doctrine invoked by private corporations and govt officials from saying things that might embarrass the govt or jeopardize their opertions.
We hope to battle this out in a couple of existing cases, and if we don’t prevail, we will need Congress to take a fresh look at it, as we cannot allow “state secrets” to become an excuse for secret govt.
The Fight For Civil Liberties In The Age Of Terror
you need to be specific about your terrorism – in this case the home grown kind fomented against Americans by the cult of republicanism’s anti-Americanism.
.
Torch and Pitchfork @ 92
If you want to do more, $20 at Costco will get you a phone card with 700 minutes to make phone calls to politicians. Keep up the fight.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 73
Christy,
Actually it is a great point. Our connection with Miller goes back to a lawsuit that the ACLU brought against one of the US prisons he was in charge of before he went to Gitmo and Abu Ghraib.
I have lost touch on where the revisions are with the army field manual. We were concerned that the protections that were clearly spelled out were going to be watered down. Let me check on the final and get back to you.
What increasingly we feel is that the military is unable to hold itself accountable. Which is why we have turned to outside the military — through our litigation against Rumsfeld, Karpinski, Pappas and Sanchez — and through Congressional oversight.
It is amazing that only low-level soldiers have been held accountable for the torture and abuse that was clearly engineered and sanctioned at the highest levels of the govt.
PS: Constitutional lawyers seeking to meet the Grumbles of the “Grumbles” case may also find him at ELAW…
now who could turn down the chance to meet Grumbles?
Anthony, this has been such a great chat so far — just wanted to say thank you for coming by on a holiday weekend to talk to all of us about the book. It is so important that people have a real world context for so many of these issues and your book puts such a human face on all of them.
Semi-off-topic link for Arthur/Torch and Pitchfork @ 92 [and I very much agree with you on the crime vs. war distinction]:
There’s a pending House Bill (HR 811, the Holt Bill), which Mark Crispin Miller (who knows his stuff) describes in a short video in this link as a “poison pill” attempt at voting reform, that will instead enfranchise computerized (and easily manipulated) vote-counting:
http://markcrispinmiller.blogs…..ll_22.html
Blocking (or thoroughly rewriting) this bill would be one step in the right direction in the struggle to reclaim our democracy.
looseheadprop @ 79
Thanks very much for the words and for getting it.
And yes, Josh Dratel also figures prominently in the book, in Defense of our America. he is a great american patriot, with pic of him and all.
Be well
anthony @ 105
Amen.
selise @ 81
Thanks. We are planting a couple of ACLU members in those debates with hard hitting questions. let’s see what they say
christy – thanks for bringing anthony’s book to our attention… it’s now on my “must read” list!
The book is on my list too Selise – it’s so important for us to recognize that people can stand up and make a difference themselves.
Wow, what an impressive group! Mr. Romero, do you suppose that one of the Intelligence or Oversight committees will call in the telecom folks to question? Or is it the whole secrecy problem? Aren’t the telecom folks liable for illegal wiretapping?
Thanks for all you do, and I look forward to reading the book.
Siun @ 113
as you and your son did!
Torch and Pitchfork @ 90
All the average burger flipper with no money needs to do is stay involved, and if you are angry, let your elected officials now. On our website, you can sign up for our action alerts. No contribution is necessary. http://www.aclu.org.
We just want to be able to get hundreds of thousands of people who are angry to write and email members of Congress.
My time is wrapping up here. So that’s what I really want folks to take away from this chat, and from the book, in defense of our america (my publisher tells me I have to keep repeating the title — smile).
We need to stay active. Ask the tough questions of our leaders and let them hear what we think.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 105
This was a lot of fun. I did all my own typing and I never proofread or spell checked any of the entries, so that I would have more time to get to the next one. Forgive me if I screwed up on a couple of the words or typos or ideas.
But this is a great forum, and I hope to come back some day real soon. Now I’m off to cook dinner..
Anthony — Thanks so much for your time today. Wonderful discussion and much appreciated. You too, Rachel — thanks for all of your help in setting this up for today. :)
Thanks Anthony and Rachel!
I’m looking forward to more news from the ACLU.
Joe Wilson @ 98
You take care, Joe. I still get rave reviews from ACLU members for the talk you gave at our membership conference. Hope to see you soon.
Rocky Anderson,(Ross)is my mayor.
Borrin Orrin is my Senator.
The Rock is awesome.
I won’t slander Orrin or Bob Bennett, because I cook for them too often. Doesn’t mean I don’t want to. I get to cook for Rocky sometimes too.
I don’t hardly need a phone card to talk to these people, or you.
WHAT can be done to insure our vote???
This is not rocket science? The phone company makes an undeciferable bill but it’s usually correct, should Ma Bell count my vote???
Voting is important like global warming everything else is details – no?
Arthur
Loo Hoo. @ 114
that is a great question! after the nsa spying scandal broke, i asked my isp (which also provides my telephone service) under what circumstances would they participate in that kind of program. at first i was told that there was no way that they did or would participate in the nsa spying… but as i pressed to get an official statement – i ran into a major run around… with the final answer being that they would do what they are required by law to do. but, they wouldn’t tell me what they thought the law required them to do (were national security letters good enough? who had to sign? did specific people have to be targeted, or would they give access to their entire data stream?). i still don’t have an answer. would have changed isps, but i don’t know if any of them are any good from protecting by privacy.
Anthony, what do you think about the new Presidential directive bush signed expanding his power?
Wow — what a great Book Salon!
Thanks so much for your passionate advocacy and all the helpful feedback, Anthony. Enjoy the rest of the holiday weekend.
Re General Miller, he retired from the Army on July 31, 2006. He did not get a promotion to Lieutenant General but did receive the Distinguished Service Medal. His retirement had been held up because he had invoked his right not to self-incrminate. He probably perjured himself both in the testimony he did give at some of the Abu Graib trials and before the Congress.
I know of no current attempts to charge him with any of this.
Re habeas corpus, nothing will be done until 2009. McConnell would filibuster in the Senate and Bush would veto it anyway. Given the way SCOTUS leans it is doubtful they would to against the Congressional fix they prescribed in Hamdan, and didn’t they just ditch a similar issue in Boumediene (sp.?)? Besides isn’t it unlikely that a challenge would get to them before 2009 anyway?
Thanks so much to both Anthony and Rachel. And the fabulous CHS as well…)
Anthony,
The publisher is right, I had just looked to the top of the page for the title.
FDL is a soothing bath please come back.
Enjoy dinner.
Thanks to all, I found a new book club..
Maybe that’s the sword! I was supposed to get from you…ladies of the lake. I got it!
Arthur
I hope I am not too late to welcome Anthony Romero to FDL. I have been a fan of ACLU for a long time, and I appreciate Christy’s great “intoduction” to these issues. Never have our civil liberties been under such sustained assault, and never have we needed the ACLU more.
Aloha, and welcome!
Bob in HI
Thanks everyone for coming, and of course to Christy and Jane for hosting.
Anthony and Rachel, thank you both and the ACLU!
In all seriousness, please consider ELAW/PIELC next year.
You’ll meet law students and citizens who revere the Constitution, regularly exercise the rights it protects, and often go on to test Constitutional law in peaceful environmental and social justice advocacy.
IANAL – but I’ve been helping these folks out as a doc for over a decade. Over that period, the State does first to them what it later does to us.
If there’s a legal equivalent of epidemiology, non-violent eco-activists are a “hot spot”.
ELAW’s a place I hear case reports on our freedoms.
Hope you’ll consider coming next year!
selise, I cancelled my Verizon and emailed AT&T. AT&T assured me that there was no illegal wiretaps happening. We did a little back and forth, which I faxed to the ACLU in L.A. since I’m an ACLU member. I’m sure it was filed somewhere. So 1984.
TSF, whew! Best book salon I’ve visited. Thanks so much Jane and Christy.
TeddySanFran @ 121
Am going to answer these last 3 posts and then cook dinner for a hungry partner.
#1: NSA and ISP’s: We do need to hold the private companies accountable for ensuring the privacy of their customers. That’s why we filed suit against ATT and that suit is still ongoing, with a number of the other suits brough against other teleco firms
#2: Presidential signing statements: They are a big problem, as they try to overturn or undo the legislative history. By the way, showing that not all bad began with bush, signing statements began under president clinton. That’s why we need to be mindful of executive power encroachment, no matter which party is in power.
#3: Book Forum: I really hope you all will talk about the books to your friends and loved ones. It is a book of stories, meant to spark a conversation at homes and dinner tables like the one we had here tonight. Thank you Christy for the amazing work you do and for having me here. I’m signing off now.
thank you anthony and Rachel!
selise @ 135
I concur, a most enlightening and fascinating conversation.
FYI, Jane is upstairs
Thanks Anthony — although, technically, I think the signing statements began during either Ford’s or Reagan’s tenure, if I recall correctly from one of Charlie Savage’s excellent Boston Globe articles on the subject. There has been an exponential increase between the few that were used in prior Administrations — most of which were for clarification purposes in terms of explanation or particular points of emphasis — and the staggering amount used by Bush in an effort to actually change the very meaning and implementation of laws and, in effect, legislate with the Presidential pen. It does need to be addressed, and soon — but finding someone with standing to sustain a case needs to be done carefully for a test case.
anthony @ 30
Anthony,
I think the deal is that you really understand what the word “conservative” means, whereas most Republicans seem to have forgotten. Instead, Republicans for the past 6 years seem to be worshiping at the altar of fascism. But I’m not too eager to see “conservatism” rehabilitated– at least, not until after “liberalism” is rehabilitated!
Thanks,
Bob in HI
Thank you, once again, to FDL for the excellent discussion.
Thanks so much for being here, Rachel and Anthony, and to Christy for hosting it. We really appreciate the time everyone took to make it a success.
And please try and get your hands on a copy of the book if you can. The ACLU does heroic work.
Kevster @ 36
Funny how the Republicans oppose a group which works to ensure their freedom.
Makes you think the Republicans only favor being Slaves or somethin’.
The question of what a Conservative is really can be confusing. For example, in the 1960s a Conservative opposed (generally) a lot of the Civil Rights movement. Today they talk about opposing it, but mostly they don’t oppose it. So, does that mean all of today’s Republicans are Liberals? Weird, huh?
If you’re Conservative and the prevailing environment can only be called Libertine, then does that make a Conservative a Libertine?
Just what is a Conservative? Mostly today a Conservative is whatever gets them power. But, a NeoCon or a Bushie is something altogether different. They seem to be nihilistic, even anarchic, and entirely sociopathic and self-interested.
i saw Anthony romero at union square barnes and noble. He is a bright light.