Vice President Dick Cheney, shown in this AP photo on MSNBC, spoke today to the graduating class at West Point. MSNBC described his speech as a "call to arms," urging the cadets to lead the troops against an enemy that is "massing" in Iraq.
We're fighting a war over there because the enemy attacked us first," Cheney said. "These are men who glorify murder and suicide. Terrorists are defined entirely by their hatreds."
The terrorism fight now centers on Iraq, the vice president said, because that is where the enemy has massed. "The security of this nation depends on the outcome," Cheney said.
Because MSNBC dutifully reported his statements without challgenge, we have to keep reminding ourselves that none of what Mr. Cheney said is true. There was never any link between the people who attacked America and Iraq or with the Administration's justifications for attacking Iraq. As Ian Welsh just explained in the prior post, the Vice President doesn't have a clue about what motivates al Qaeda or any other group the Bush/Cheney regime recklessly defines as "terrorists." There is no massive gathering of enemy troops arriving to fight Americans in Iraq, or any where else. And it is simply delusional hysteria to assert that any of the resistance groups opposing the US occupation in Iraq represent anything remotely resembling an existential threat to America. If there were, the generals there would be screaming for tens or hundreds of thousands more US troops, and millions of Americans would be lining up in every town to volunteer to defend the nation. Vice President Cheney, who also used his speech to ridicule the Geneva Conventions (h/t Stephen Parrish), at a time when US soldiers are being held captive in Iraq, is quitely simply, an irresponsible, lying nut case.
Is Dick Cheney truly the voice of the regime that the US Congress just authorized to continue its war and occupation in Iraq? We have the Vice President of the United States making false, bellicose statements even as our own military commanders are leaking stories to the media telling a very different story. Three months ago we were told that the "new strategy" under the new General was going to turn the tide in Iraq; we finally had it "right." Now the same generals are already signaling that expectations for prompt results are too high and that a different but familiar strategy focused on training Iraqis may be needed, while Secretary Gates and others in the Administration are arguing we will have to radically reduce our troop levels to be able to sustain what they fear will be a prolonged occupation lasting perhaps decades.
Reduced troops levels by 50 percent? That doesn't sound like the response that would be called for if it were really true that the enemy is massing in Iraq and our survival literally depended on winning this battle. Who speaks for this Administration?
And we've heard this before. A year before the 2006 elections (and before the 2004 elections), there were repeated leaks from the White House and the Pentagon about all their plans to reduce the number of US troops, creating the impression that by the time the election rolled around, US troop levels would be in decline and we'd be in some transition out. It never happened. [Update: Glenn Greenwald tracked down all the times we've seen this diversion before.] Now we are hearing the same kinds of stories again, except this time, those leaking these stories know that the Army and Marines simply cannot sustain the "surge" levels of deployment and extented tours without breaking our armed forces. Should we believe the leaks this time?
Ever since it became clear that the Democrats would lose on the Iraq Supplemental funding bill, the netroots have been struggling with how to assess the damage and regroup. There is very little confidence in the prevailing media narrative that September will be different, because by then a sufficient number of Repubicans will join anti-war Democrats in imposing binding restraints on the President's ability to continue his Iraq occupation. The debate is how much emphasis progressives should place on the anti-war movement itself, and how much on positioning the Democrats to capture the White House and expand their Congressional majorities. Is there a strategy for doing both, or must we choose?
The American people elected Democrats to end the occupation, but they did not elect enough Democrats to do that over the obstinance of a President and delusions of his Vice President and those who cheer him on. We don't have the votes to overcome a veto, yet, and so strategies in the future must deal with that.
It seems to me the House leadership came up with a strategy that first recognized this reality but allowed its members to vote against the open-ended occupuation while voting for needed domestic programs, including a much needed increase in the minimum wage. Had the leadership trusted its base enough to level with them, and not tried to suger coat the reality by claiming all was well, they'd have been in better shape with us today. Those who tried to fool us, Steney Hoyer and Rahm Emanuel, hurt the party. We should let Pelosi know that demoting those who hurt the party and promoting those who support what needs to be done have our support.
The Senate leadership, however, failed us and failed its members badly. They were left with forcing their own Presidential candidates, with little support from their colleagues, with the choice of voting against the funding or voting against needed domestic programs, thus splitting Democrats from each other and driving a wedge between anti-war positions and domestic programs, and between the party and its most active base.
I like Harry Reid; I believe he's a decent man. But we need a stronger leadership team in the Senate, and I think we need to be calling for that now. We know we're going to face this same set of dilemmas in September, and this time, I expect our party to be better prepared — whether or not the Republicans finally begin to abandon the schizophrenic Bush/Cheney regime.
Meanwhile, eight more US troops were killed, pushing the May total, now near 100, towards the bloodiest month since the war began. There have been 1000 US troops killed since the last Memorial Day. It's a good thing we have a plan for how this ends.



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Actual ZED?
Wow! And on the 5th anniversary of Daily Kos!
Okay, I’ll calm down and let our friends downstairs know, and then read the article. Thanks, Scarecrow.
Whom indeed? The guy is a nut case.
Dick-less Cheney is a cowardly lying scumsucking piece of bird dung.
Saving lives trumps politics.
((((((((((scarecrow!))))))))))
Shooter Cheney is a serial killer – oh please can’t we please impeach this sociopath sooner than later?
How humiliating for these new second lieutenants to have to sit through an address by this draft-dodger. When he tells them that “you soldier for the President, he will soldier on for you” do they laugh in their hats?
We must impeach this cretin, and Dear Leader, before they complete the destruction of all we hold dear.
it’s not just that we need more democrats in congress – a majority of D senators voted for the capitulation bill.
we also need some different democrats.
Brief ThinkProgress post: Cheney criticizes the Geneva Convention in Military Academy commencement address
Protesters Barred From Cheney’s West Point Speech
The group, the Democratic Alliance of Orange County, and several individuals contended that Mr. Cheney would probably speak in support of the war in Iraq, and they should be allowed to express an opposing view. But the three-judge panel disagreed, saying the protesters had misunderstood the way the First Amendment applies inside a military base.
Cheney got us into this war in the first place. He has made of the vice presidency something it was never intended to be, and thinks that he is answerable to no one. He must be impeached.
Hi Scarecrow,
thank you soo much for this one!
I think the sense is that Pelosi did the best she could with what she had (Rahm, Hoyer and Blue Dogs with knives out) and Reid just fucked up. Pelosi didn’t take the beating in the kos straw poll that Reid did.
I wish I thought she was strong enough to take those clowns on but I think pressure on them is going to have to come from the outside. I had John Amato make a clip of Rahm’s “victory speech” and I’m going to load it on YouTube and use it…oh, I don’t know. Maybe all the time.
Just so nobody forgets what a bunch of fucking morons he thinks we are.
Wanker.
TeddySanFran @ 8
Hear, hear and then ship him off in chains to the Hague with his dear friend Donald Rumsfeld, etc. et al.
I am very displeased with my party as a result of the Iraq cave in.
TeddySanFran @ 8
I couldn’t say it any better, TSF.
EPU’d & OT- for anyone who’s interested, the audio files of the Amherst College speech today by Patrick Fitzgerald, “What I Did Not Know About Public Service When I Graduated” & the q&a that followed are now up @ link below. Interesting stuff:
Fitzgerald Amherst Speech, Q&A
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 10
That would be an impeachable offense in and of itself, no?
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 10
Lordy. I wonder how many cadets took him seriously?
Is that rain?
.
.
.
.
.
Why, no, it’s Rahm and Harry — pissing on yer leg!
I still believe in the Speaker. Though my disppointment runs deep.
TeddySanFran @ 8
Amen.
I don’t understand why Democrats need a veto proof majority. They should have just kept sending the same bill back to Bush, altering it slightly each time to make it less palatable to him. The American people know that Bush vetoed the spending that Congress appropriated. No one really is telling the truth when they suggest otherwise, and that won’t stop the liars and spinners. So what. No one really hears dog whistles except dogs. But the dogs have a serious case of the mange, and no one really wants them around anymore.
Marie Roget @ 17
Bless you SF Teddy – a perfect antidote to the last week. Would not Fitz make a perfect AG when we re-elect President Al Gore in 2008!
I think the DLC is laughing itself silly too.
Good thread, Scarecrow. :o)
One caveat; NO plan is going to work. No way to un-shit the bed, as that wicked little metaphor puts it.
But the democrats didn’t shit the bed. Bush and the republicans did it, and right now, there is very little doubt about that, in the minds of american voters.
Which is a situation that it’s VERY important to sustain, and which situation will NOT be sustainable if Pelosi and Co. start forcing troop withdrawals by themselves.
Guys, it aint rocket science.
What is coming in Iraq, will have americans HOWLING for political scalps.
Why on earth are we screaming at Pelosi, etc., to take bush-Custer’s place at the Little Big Horn?
Thanks scarecrow – now I’m grinding my teeth again.
**************
EPU’d
Jane Hamsher @ 14
makes sense, jane. but pelosi wasn’t exactly straight with us (and the dccc really fucked up)… and that doesn’t help build trust.
was it scarecrow who wrote they don’t trust us or eachother and we don’t trust them?
well, it just got worse.
how do we to break cycle of dis-trust so we can start building trust? i have no freaking clue.
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 10
Thanks, Stephen — I’ve added that link to the post.
newtonusr @ 26
Thanks, I re-posted also. Just finished listening to it. Uplifting, to say the least :)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 25
Let them laugh all they want for it won’t matter a whit when we the people rid purge our party of their ilk.
ReElect President Al Gore in 2008. Accept no substitute! We can do this dear firepups! ;~)
Marie Roget @ 17
ooo nice!
selise @ 9
yes, and the way to start sending that message is to let the Dems know we want stronger leadership teams in both Houses. There are other suggestions wrt to taking on invidividual members who have proved to be “disappointments.”
September will be different, but not in the way Democrats and TradMed anticipate. September will be worse. Closer to an election, draped in the bunting of St Rudy’s Day on the Eleventh, and aglow with General Petraeus’s “progress” report, September will see fewer politicians able to stand up to this President.
If the Democrats wanted to feed the Naderite message that there’s not a dime’s worth of difference between the two parties, it would be hard to find a better way to do it than this week’s travesty. “Vote for Democrats — we’ll stand up for you unless it really matters” — swell slogan going into the Presidential year.
Thanks a lot, Harry. Thanks a lot, Rahm. And thanks a lot, Nancy. The GOP will make good use next year of clips from this week’s Countdown — “There’s a new Congress in town, the days of the Rubber Stamp are over.” Ha ha ha.
Weak tea, indeed.
Just as his aide “Scooter” Libby was prosecuted, tried and convicted for lying to federal investigators and the grand jury, Cheney should be impeached, convicted and removed from office for repeatedly lying to the American people on matters of war and security.
newspaperbrat @ 15
Shame plays no role. The MSNBC story indicates the VP got standing ovations before and after his speech. He knew his audience.
…”the security of this nation depends on the outcome” Cheney said.
Or is it more like the security of future petro biz profiteering depends on the outcome? Or ME American militarism,threatmaking and intimidation depend on the outcome?
Dick Cheney should appear at these martial affairs in garb similar to that of the Emperor in the “Star Wars” films as it would better fit with and reflect the value system of malice,menace and deception he so readily embraces. His tenure as VP does end in Jan.2009. Does he understand that? He is a war criminal…there should be no doubt about that.
I was actually heartened reading Glenn Greenwald on the language of the debate.
the myth of the debate
Scarecrow @ 33
that sounds very good to me.
but, i was wondering – what do they (pelosi and those we see more as potential allies) need from us to consider us “trustworthy”? is that something we should even be thinking about?
OT
EPU’d from Ian downstairs:
Ian makes a significant addition that shouldn’t be missed.
I can’t help but wonder just how Americans would have loved the Republicans whining for war through this holiday weekend while the Dem leadership stood strong and just said no benchmarks, no time lines, no deal and no vacation for the US congress while our troops have no hope for an end to this failed plot. Only the low paid spinsters would have been around to watch the Republicans and blue dogs melt down.
It would have been the right thing to do and miserably entertaining.
And Cheney needs to be tried as a war criminal where all the world can see we understand how awful this cretin really is.
Posted this last thread, near the bottom, but it is a humourous presentation, and topically relevant moreso in this thread than the last. Iraq’s role in the current quagmire well illustrated, give it a watch if you can spare 20 minutes or so, it will probably make you laugh and cry.
The History Of Oil
Teddy, did you catch that when he so deliciously “scorned” himself and the other desk-sitters, while the troops fight the good fight?
After I got calmed down a bit, I was thinking:
“Maybe this fucker IS a genius. Maybe he knows that he nearly ruptured my carotid artery, with that nauseating pap.”
I will dance naked, when the Goldwater SWAT teams drags Cheyney out of his office, prior to going after bush.
On the rising number of American deaths in Iraq. I haven’t done the graph, but it is my distinct impression that the killed-in-action rate is about twice what it was this time last year. Here’s my take on that number. The quality of our troops is falling. Ever since volunteering for the army became a 20 percent chance of dismemberment, the quality of new volunteers has been declining. We know that from the record. We also know that the battalion charged with training soldiers was sent to Iraq, which is equivalent to eating your seed corn. We are sending undertrained soldiers up agaist an enemy that knows us all too well. These rates can be expected to climb.
I’d like to see someone like Larry Johnson do a column on this, or someone else who is expert enough to lay it out. It seems pretty clear that we are sending less and less qualified troops to do a more and more difficuolt job. It’s going to be a slaughter.
And what do the front-runners have to say?
selise @ 38
FWIW I’ve been sending tough love emails to Leader Pelosi and will continue to do so at every opportunity.
I like Harry Reid; I believe he’s a decent man. But we need a stronger leadership team in the Senate, and I think we need to be calling for that now.
How did raising the minimum wage (a good thing) and Katrina relief (another good thing) get lumped in with a bill throwing more money at Iraq?
Isn’t that the kind of thing that the majority leader should be taking care of? Minimum wage and Katrina releif cannot be passed as stand-alone bills?
It’s not bad enough I have to fight the Republicans? I now have to fight my own party!
Is it right to question the Vice President when he’s fighting the good fight against Osama?
Thanks for that Fitz speech link. Nice. And great post scarecrow.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 44
not enough
Everythingseemssoneat @ 49
Yes.
And this is another example of simple answers to simple questions
Same as it ever were. Blurring the policy with ’support the troops’
It’s really appalling that the Vice President of the United States would be denigrating the Geneva Conventions at any time, but to do so while US soldiers are being held captive and while there are several US and other citizens being help by Iran while we run two carrier groups through the Straits of Hormutz??? Dems and editorial boards should be demanding that Cheney be muzzled and that the President restate the “official” view that the United States still supports GC and fair treatment of all detainees. Even if he has no credibility on these points, that’s what Presidents are supposed to do to protect our own troops and citizens. Cheney is being incredibly irresponsible. Wonder if the Generals will speak out on this?
Could we have our country back, please?
ccmask @ 50
You’re welcome, ccmask. Just listened to both speech & q&a. They’re great…
jayt @ 47
I thought it was really stupid to lump minimum wage and Katrina relief in with the warbill, too. Democrats lost whatever credit they’d otherwise gain for these two items. Were they afraid Bush would veto them? As if.
The level of strategic thinking we’re getting from our leaders is tepid. I would like to think they spent their years in the wilderness sharpening their skills, but their performance to date does not indicate this.
Why spend the past five months telling Americans they were going to put this war on another track if they knew they couldn’t do it? Did they think they could talk Bush into it? If so, they have underestimated him, and that is scary.
dakine01- Yeah but Osama got a new laptop with a cave friendly wireless connection.
What kind of spawn is this “man” Cheney? A draft dodging coward.
Thank you, Marie Roget for the Fitz speech. Gives a real human side of him.
Elliott @ 51
The Senate-seat-holder PrezCandis can neither count nor lead. They both waited until the vote had passed to vote “NO” — meaning they needed to see it pass before taking their brave stand. Obama, then Clinton. Do their colleagues not tell them how they’ll vote? Can they not count?
A brave, early stand — like Dodd’s — was needed from the front runners. It might have swayed some votes. 80 YES votes is a horror in the Senate; it’s a datapoint BushCo will use, and soon.
ccmask @ 50
However, I don’t think we’ll see much writing by Marcy for a while, as she retires to her “fainting couch” while she listens again & again. Too bad there wasn’t video.
[Speech really WAS great. Thanks so much.]
Cheney speaks for militarism. Right now there is an ongoing self purging of the officer ranks, high and non com, of the anti militarists and less than true believers in The Party. If for no other reason this is a great reason to stay the course.
How many of the graduating cadets will be Cheney’s type in the years to come remains to be seen but the outlook is good for him I think. Soon perhaps a tipping point may be reached and the military will finally embrace militarism to the extent that belief in it will be crucial for advancement.
The essential Republicanism of the military is now a 30 year old phenomenon but sadly for Dick it has turned out to be only nominal. Nobody in the Pentagon really wanted this war in Iraq. In January the Joint Chiefs all told Bush an attack on Iran was a mistake. It’s Dicks dream that what The Party leaders want and what the Pentagon want are exactly the same. The cheers he heard today will surely hearten him.
Scarecrow @ 36
They have to applaud. They have orders. (I’d bet the reception would be different if it weren’t a military academy.)
I am letting my remarks on the front runners percolate.
Princess Sparkle Pony’s photoshopped fun.
TeddySanFran @ 58
Agreed Teddy. And not only soon, but for years to come.
dakine01 @ 5
Bird dung is useful.
So, Dear World: “Freedom’s what we say it is.” Capice? Yours (or else) – America.
I am at a loss to understand not only what we are fomenting in Iraq, and why, but also and especially, how much of what we are fomenting in Iraq, and why, our Members of Congress understand and/or approve of. I have multiple rational theories for what we are doing in Iraq (everything but trying to create democracy or improve the lives of the average Iraqi), and this excellent article makes me think we are deliberately sabotaging the creation of a unified and peaceful Iraq, right in line with Ian’s preceding post:
http://www.alternet.org/module/printversion/52135
Most of all, I guess, I now feel that the leadership of the Democratic Party is conning the American people, with malice aforethought. My working theory is that the A*P*C Lobby drove the capitulation, especially through Emanuel, Levin, Reid, Schumer, Durbin, Hoyer and their backers. After all, if that is the case, the Democrats would be throwing every lame excuse in the book at us except their (unmentionable because favoring a foreign lobby over America) real reason for not demanding an end to the occupation. And every lame excuse in the book would sound just about like the mixed-up, insane and unsupportable rationales they are throwing at us, one after the other.
It’s a dreadful theory to accept, but our history predicts it with precision. With the truth AWOL in our Congress, I no longer know who or what to believe about our actions in Iraq.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 47
I like to think of it as tough love in a literal sense rather than “fight” our party leaders OK kiddo and agree completely with Jane @14 about Nancy Pelosi. Pelosi has true grit – we’ve all seen evidence of this and it seems wise and worth the time to express empathy yet firm consistently. If she receives tough and thoughtful emails from everyone it will be noticed and I hope welcome for she needs to know the netroots have her back, up to a degree anyway.
I saw a clip of Obama responding to criticism from McCain and Romney over is “no” vote on the funding bill. Can’t find the link, but he did a good job or turning it on them. He reminded McCain about his armored “stroll” in the Baghdad market, and got strong applause for his reply.
Haven’t seen anything on Clinton.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 64
I notice you use the drip system. ;)
P J Evans @ 67
Yeah, especially when it hits the Chimpenfuhrer. Too bad it didn’t splat him on the Pinnochio nose…
You’re welcome, one & all, for the Amherst speech link. It’s nice they got the link up so quickly, since speech was just a few hrs. ago.
TeddySanFran @ 60
you know, you are right about those two, waiting until the last minute to vote their little nays on Bush’s war. that is just not leadership.
jayt @ 47
The votes weren’t there to override the veto. I thought it was better than nothing, myself. The GOOPERS hate raising the minimum wage. And to paraphrase Lou Dobbs, (gasp) “We don’t need those kind of businesses here that it hurts (or puts under) anyway”
Harry Reid always looks like the befuddled alcoholic uncle who drank so much before the dinner that he has trouble delivering his toast (yeah-I know he’s Mormon).
Obey is eye-ticking and palsied as he delivers his stumbling speech, and Nancy Pelosi-God love her-always looks like she can hardly be contained in her own skin-bulging eyes and clipped speech.
Why can’t we have some calm, well-spoken, Democratic spokesperson delivering some of these messages?
The minimum wage increase: At the very least, people who are struggling in the poorer states will have a better chance. They will realize how much it helped, and realize this came from Democrats, NOT republicans.
I disagree with the statement –
It is of my opinion that Cheney is extremely smart and manipulative. He’ll say whatever he needs to say and sacrifice someone else’s life just to get his agenda across.
It doesn’t take an oil tycoon to witness the man’s life and understand that he has two main longterm agendas that he feels will be in the best interest of the United States in the longterm, and that he foolishly believes that the ends justify the means of obtaining them. Those agendas are – 1) the Unitary Executive – giving exclusive power to the executive branch, and 2) gaining control of middle eastern oil reserves for ourselves and the access routes into China and India ahead of their anticipated industrial growth and energy demands.
It is no secret that the VP has been slowly ratcheting up a personal PR campaign (which includes both wars in Iraq and Afghanistan) to manipulate the public into believing an invasion of Iran is justified.
I imagine the following situation over the next year -
1) more bs talk of Iran and nuclear capabilities from the VP
2) more buildup of ships in the Persian Gulf to stress the “urgency” of the problem.
3) a late 2008 discovery of some bs “evidence” of nuclear capabilities.
Much of the American public may be cynical of it all, but it will give enough cover for Israel to take the lead and have missile strikes on Iran.
So close to an election, America will be pulled into a new war in the pretense of protecting Israel and neither Presidential candidate, and much of Congress, will be willing to effectively stand-up against it.
Sorry for the length of this, but I thought it would be good for us all to try to put ourselves in the minds of the tyrants in this administration and evaluate the news in that perspective rather than blowing them off as morons.
(((Scarecrow)))) If, “The security of this nation depends on the outcome.”, aren’t we already FUBAR’d??? Jez askin…
cancer_cures @ 77
I do not think credit will go to Democrats for this.
The votes weren’t there to override the veto. I thought it was better than nothing, myself. The GOOPERS hate raising the minimum wage. And to paraphrase Lou Dobbs, (gasp) “We don’t need those kind of businesses here that it hurts (or puts under) anyway”
I would have *loved* to see GWB put into a position where he was forced to separately veto Iraq funding w/timetables, minimum wage raise and Katrina relief. Screw him. Instead of one big win, he gets three losses. JAR woulda hit mid-teens. Missed opportunity, big time.
Fitz is such a great public servant. Quite a contrast to the fluffery and nuttery of our Congress. Imagine having a “Fitz” in every seat of Congress. How different our lives would be!!
cancer_cures @ 77
I think/hope that’s true.
What if the Dems had said, “because of Republican opposition, we can’t get enough votes to condition funding on withdrawal timetables or even firm benchmarks [which I don’t support, btw], even though we strongly support both, as do the American people. And if we tried to get the domestic programs alone, we wouldn’t get them, or if we did barely, the President would veto them and we’d lose on override. So we chose to make the best of a very bad situation; we linked the two, because we weren’t willing to defund the troops with this irresponsible President as Commander in Chief, because he’d take it out on the troops just to punish us. That’s the situation the country faces. At least we got the domestic programs, but we didn’t get what we and the country want wrt to Iraq, and we’re sorry about that. We need more help from the country because we’re still up against a recalcitrant President and his Republican party.”
I’m 54. At this point, I’m voting for Democratic Party principles that don’t even exist anymore.
I’m past the third party argument. I want a parliamentary government.
GREAT link lead on AW.Com:
“Wolfowitz to head Al Queada?” :o)
P – Good points. And as for Cheney’s path to securing our nation’s future, I am surprised that some of the diehard republicans have no clue of this administration’s middle east policy: To curb fast growing economies by higher prices or lower-output of crude oil. And for America(n corporations) to profit from 1st world countries in the long run.
So I understand the general concept of the middle east policy. I cannot agree with it ethically, and I certainly find it to be grossly incompetent.
But why haven’t our GOPer neighbors ever realize this IS the reason – Oil. of fucking course it was for oil. But don’t fibble fabble about democracy, weapons of mass destruction, or ties to terrorism.
P@78, That is a very scary prognosis, made all the scarier by ‘known-knowns’!!! ;)
Scarecrow @ 83
that’s a stunning statement,
and it’s the stark truth.
How can anyone dislike the Vice President when he’s against Osama and for tax relief?
Knut Wicksell @ 44
I worry about the exit from Iraq too. If we could only have real Americans sit down and talk with the adversaries, MAYBE something could be worked out.
Scarecrow – 83
No way would they be punished. There is NO WAY that generals would ever let our troops to starve or be punished due to a cutting of war funds. There would be a coup or a riot.
Do you think the top brass or middle brass would just sit on their hands as the troops are cut off from support?
Elliott @ 88
Well, Bush was, in effect, threatening to do that. In a rational world, if Congress witholds the funds for combat, the Generals pull the troops back out of combat, but Bush was making it sound as though he’d leave them in combat as they literally ran out of ammo — that’s the image he wanted Americans to get when thinking about what not funding meant.
TeddySanFran @ 80
Iraq overshadows everything.
People are so angry, I’ve never heard my neighbors sounding like…like me, on a really bad day. It’s hot, gas is way up, we’re still in fucking Iraq, jobs are hard to find, housing foreclosures are up and the Democrats can’t do shit about anything. That’s the perception. That is what we have to overcome, thanks so much, Congress.
Get Us Out Of Iraq. NOW.
shootthatarrow>>> @ 37
You are probably right, but let’s give the fucker a trial first.
Scarecrow @ 54
Excellent coverage of Deadeye’s lies, Scarecrow. And Ian Welsh’s A Mile in my Enemy’s Shoes was GREAT! We will have our country back if we work our tails off, get the word out, get the vote out and get lucky.
Sorry, late to thread.
Put me down for five on “Mordor”, please.
cancer_cures @ 91
no, I don’t. Nor do I believe the Congress would ever force that situation. But Bush wanted the public to believe the Democrats were threatening that. See last comment at 92.
Let’s face it. Our government has been kidnapped and is being held hostage by a gang of thugs.
I am not happy with our Congresscritters, but they have kept voting on the Iraq War causing Commander Guy to lose popularity. In fact Cheney makes me worried about Congress. Remember the Reichstag.
ps Dr. Murphy, you were great!
Well, again, this is the reality…
“While troops are still in Iraq, Americans overwhelmingly support continuing to finance the war, though most want to do so with conditions. Thirteen percent want Congress to block all money for the war.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05…..ref=slogin
It would have been political suicide at this time to ‘de fund the troops’ for the Dems in 2008
Elliott @ 100
Ditto!!!
neurophius @ 99
If only we the people would face it.
All this talk of troop supplies: I remember hearing an anecdote of Ranger who was in Iraq. KBR had the contract to supply their unit with 3 meals a day, but they only received ONE of those per day. When his CO said they were moving north to Mosul and he asked why, the CO replied ‘because that is where all the food is’ .
So my question is, if KBR was awarded the contract to feed our troops, what happened to all the extra meals? Were the funds simply pocketed (because good soldiers don’t complain), or were supply lines shattered, or was there just bad management?
CTuttle @ 102
Just read your post- I can only echo the above. Wonderful!
selise @ 9
Chairs of the Democratic Caucus in both House and Senate are committed pro-Iraq War supporters.
You can thank Rahm Emanuel and Chuck Schumer for the capitulation bill.
Scarecrow @ 83
wow. i think there’d be a lot fewer people pissed off at the congressional D leadership.
i’d go even further and not use “we weren’t willing to defund the troops with this irresponsible President as Commander in Chief, because he’d take it out on the troops just to punish us.”
i don’t like “defund” in this context.
maybe something like: “we’ve decided not to use the power of the purse, at this time, with this irresponsible President as Commander in Chief, because he’d defund the troops instead of bringing them home safely.”
Coz, I think that’s a very skewed way of interpreting the NYT article…and wonder how and at what point the question you refer to was phrased… How many of those folks understood the only way for congress to end the war is to defund it? How many understand you dont defund defensive maneuvers while leaving and the troops don’t starve or end up stranded with a bill at the Baghdad Holiday Inn.
Many stats in that article point in a much stronger exit opinion, imho.
Every day we should demand that the people who support this war, and their sons and daughters enlist and fight it or shut up. That means Jenna and not Jenna, Lieberman’s four children, Dick’s daughters, every Republican in the House and the Senate, every Rebublican running for office, everyone. If it is so important they must enlist and protect the homeland, or shut up and get all our service persons out, NOW!
fitzgerald sigh…wires??????????????
And the late nite thread is ready. Herrrrre….s Pach!
Pach is upstairs
LATE NITE
Tim @ 84
If all you are doing is voting, then you get what you deserve. Sounds cruel and heartless, but I found that out for myself. I used to believe that adults were in charge of the party and all I had to do was show up to vote.
Wrong. You see, you and I are the adults that are supposed to be in charge. We are the ones that should be actively asking good, solid, honest, hardworking citizens if they will run for office; we’re supposed to be the ones who’ll raise money to help them run. We’re the ones who should be finding other volunteers and all of us going and knocking on doors to help motivate others like us…and we’re the ones that are supposed to take our f*cking party back from the brink of extinction.
The average Democrat who only votes, who only donates a little money here and there on line, has absolutely no idea how little there is in the way of infrastructure that actually forms the party about which everybody’s been complaining this week. In this state of roughly ten million people, there are only 25-30 progressive activists in each of 80-plus counties who make things happen. Thats a couple thousand people in one state, trying to hold it all together. Pretty f*cking thin fabric on which to create a democracy.
If the Democratic Party isn’t what you think it should be, it’s because far too many people believe that all they have to do is show up to vote. I know, I used to be one of those people.
But democracy is a contact sport. You will not find a real solution in any party until you come to grips with that truth.
BTW, I’m 46 — and I learned all of this in the last 4 years. You are not too old a dog to learn new tricks.
selise @ 107
I like your wording better.
jayt @ 81
The only reason I don’t agree with this is because the people of New Orleans and the Gulf Coast should not have to wait one second longer than necessary to get relief. This is also true of Americans living under the tyranny of minimum wage.
New Thread
ORGASMS?
Elliott, CTuttle, Marie, Nolo (prev. thread) – thank you all. The only reason the post worked was that so many here on the Lake shared their ideas, questions, and solutions.
That was fun – thanks for playing!
i’m gonna try to not even look at pach’s post until tomorrow. there’s just been too many compelling posts today… i was supposed to get more stuff done.
Eureka Springs @ 108
Lemme just say this. It wasn’t that long ago that over 70% thought Iraq was behind 9/11. That’s not the case anymore. It’s a slow process but the trend is in our favor. I’ve seen this movie before (Vietnam), it just takes time.
Scarecrow@83 & selise@107
Very well put. When Dems like Rahm start to try to sell us a turd as an apple and tell us this is a victory and the beginnings of the end of the war, then the Democrats become no better than the any of the other shit peddlers.
Mary McC @ 116
Raising the minimum wage and rebuilding NOLA should be no-brains-needed-to-pass bills.
Unfortunately, we have the GOP where everything is decided by Bush/Cheney (taxes are bad) and the Democrats where half the members vote GOP regardless (doing anything to upset the GOP is bad).
In the off chance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQmABbwneSU
Scarecrow @ 115,
I like your and Selise’s explanations. I so wish we could have heard them about a hundred times this past week; probably would have made a big difference.
Tim @ 85
I’m 54 too. Please explicky further.
selise @ 119
selise, thanks for your great comments and questions in teh organics thread
I was trying to answer you when the toobz ate my browser and reply. can’t remember what the question was, though…. sorry about that…
Loo Hoo. @ 125
It must be contagious, I’m 54 too ; ) LOL
Kirk James Murphy, M.D. @ 126
nope. you did a great job of answering questions… i really hope you will continue the conversation with future posts!
There’s something terribly wrong with a government that continues the way this one has been able to with impunity for so long, with a madman as VP who blathers away with reckless abandon unchecked and irresponisbly. If it were a matter of slander, a conviction would’ve been obtained for Cheney early on.
You never got around to weighing the anti-war movement’s importance at this stage, preferring to ponder solely the remaining possibilities of a failed strategy that started with the 2004 election cycle. Still putting all eggs in one basket. Your attention should be turning more to the alternative you posited but never said another further word about.
selise @ 128
selise, i look forward to that. (in the meantime, i sure wish i could change my handle back to my regular one)
newspaperbrat @ 7
Yes, please! Here’s a summary of Kucinich’s Articles of Impeachment, and David Swanson offers more Articles of Impeachment on Cheney (scroll about a third of the way down to find the Articles against Cheney.)
Offer these to your Congress critters!
Bob in HI
Jane Hamsher @ 14
Rahm Emanauel thinks ‘we’ are a “bunch of fucking morons” – is that right?
Wordsmith @ 132
takes one to know one, eh?
Mary McCurnin @ 116
fwiw, I tend to also disagree with me. Sometimes, i get a little vindictive when thinking about GWB.
Cozumel @ 127
I’ll be 54 this Aug. Leastways, I think – yes….1953….54.
Elliott @ 133
well then – I can finally use something from the 4th grade….. I know you are, but what am I? or something.
Elliott @ 133
let me make that clear
Rahm Emanuel is a “bunch of fucking morons”
Wordsmith @ 136
ssometimes what I say isn’t what I’m saying.
Kirk,
A suggestion for a follow up, ‘The Nutraceuticals Scam’
Follow the money…
Hint: Orin Hatch
alank @ 129
My preference is a strategy that does both. I don’t feel we can end the war while Bush/Cheney remain in office — and I don’t think we can help the Dems succeed in 2008 without doing everything they can to end the war. Hence my suggestion wrt stronger Dem leadership now, to help prepare the country for ending the war, ending the regime and recapturting the WH with a stronger Congress. The arguments I’m seeing elsewhere would, IMO split those focused on the war from those focused on 2008, and I want to avoid that. They succeed together, or they’re more likely to fail together — and success is not a sure bet for either.
No – because I’ll bet they’re coming from the OVP. I’ve been reading ‘Vice’ about Cheney. He did the same thing in the Ford administration.
LooHoo@94…
…let’s go with Bush/Cheney rules which are more inclined to murky secrecy, abduction and being whisked away to mystery Whereisitstans so no one is able to find out or knows who is being held or for what.
Then of course proceed with no formal charges being made and fully institute “law of limbo” conduct on/for prisoners,legal/lawful safeguards or process such as H-C,having defense lawyers for legal discovery or defense. Or simply ignore and abuse accepted international legal norms on/about using torture.
A trial?–sure/maybe/maybe not/depends–as long as it’s fully stacked in favor of the jailers and their attorneys. Heck “Dick the I Wannabe Dictator” pisses on that namby-pamby “a fair trial BS” stuff often and repeatedly.
If one subscribes to “what goes around comes around” thinking G.W.Bush,D.Cheney,D.Rumsfeld,D.Feith,P.Wolfowitz,E.Abrams,C.Rice and A.Gonzales should then be fully aware of karma and karmaic outcomes…
Elliott @ 38
This is a great article.
When are the Democrats going to realize that the Republicans have been using classic disinformation techniques, and Democrats haven’t learned to deal with them. Unless they (we!) do, we could be totally outmaneuvered and lose in 2008.
This is more than just the “framing” debate.
Bob in HI
wagonjak @ 75
Too bad John Edwards left the Senate for he is calm, well-spoken and clearly a true Blue Democrat.
If we are denied the opportunity to relect President Al Gore in 2008 we have a great option: electing fearless John Edwards. Commander in Chief.
From Mr. Draft Deferment and the Yale flunk out himself…rofl lmao……………
Being old enough to have lived through the Vietnam war I have seen most of this tired and completely misguided rhetoric before, and it still amazes me that people believe this crap.
What is different now is we have never had a president or a vice president who came close to spreading fear, and the threat of death with their lies as these two have done, that they want to frighten us into submission..our president and our vice president..to me that is grounds enough for impeachment, they are traitors, and they are the terrorists, we should fight with everything we have to muster.
Yet, they are permitted to continue doing it, and it drives me crazy, when it is so obviously destroying our country, it seems we are lemmings heading for the cliff.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 16
An observation: most Americans want to pursue prosperity that’s their core value. They don’t vote and don’t want to be involved in the national debate or devote a portion of their wealth or energy into the system that has enabled them. Case in point trade unions have prospered left their roots and crossed to the other side weakening worker protections, “I got mine” is a commonly shared value that flies in the face of common sense we need to add more protections and strengthen other elements the republicans want to remove protections.
1. Shut down K street and ban buying democracy the corporocrats earn 1/3 of the GNP and have 2/3 of the power however you address it it has to be done democracy is not for sale. democracy must be redefined in the national dialog…democracy is an equal opportunity form of government.
I was in the Marine Corps in 1950’s the fight for equality was behind the barracks Dr. King putout in the open.
2.The bill of rights has to be strengthened
3.Racist policies not only hurt those targeted but those that tolerate it, Poverty means prison in America. that’s right if you are born poor disadvantaged your chances for good outcomes are much less than the privileged. As the divide increases so do the cells.
it is to all our advantage to be treated and treat equally, fairly. I should put this in the number one category… what most people seem not to have learn is when the Nations and people of those Nations the world can come to the table when they behave in this manner…they will not be ostracized good behavior is rewarded. In this US administration abominal behavior is rewarded open theft, murder mayhem in the name of democracy makes the world mock our form of government.
4.Th adversarial legal system is not producing the justice that it claims to seek,it is time to truly level the legal, financial and political playing field permanently so everyone is represented.
5. “The sovereignty of the people” http://www.epcc.edu/Faculty/ml…..ignty.html
This country needs a constitutional convention to update a document that was written by slaveholders and aristocrats in their society
and so on…
This can happen at the Democratic National Convention during the platform and it could be preceeded by large internet conventions that are addressing why and the how we got in the mess this nation is in today.
The dialogue could be started by some bright folks who have the integrity to not give it lip service and the connections with the candidates.
“Terrorists are defined entirely by their hatreds.” (Cheney)
I thought terrorists were defined by their actions, dick.
The “National Security and Homeland Security Presidential Directive,” with the dual designation of NSPD-51, as a National Security Presidential Directive, and HSPD-20, as a Homeland Security Presidential Directive, establishes under the office of president a new National Continuity Coordinator.
JOE CAMEL AND DICK CHENEY!!!!!
NO!!! I will not drive a mile for a “Camel,” A-holes”
As we memorialize our war death who gave there lives in defense of freedom, I make
this simple proposition: “If there be no greater sacrifice than to lay down one’s life in defense of freedom so others may live; then it stands to reason that the intentional use of
“fear,” manipulation of “reason,” predicated on the ‘systematic instillation; of “falsehoods,” leading to war triggering unwarranted death and destruction constitutes a
high crime and or at least, misdemeanor!”
NOw to consolidate power using The “National Security and Homeland Security Presidential Directive,” with the dual designation of NSPD-51, as a National Security Presidential Directive, and HSPD-20, as a Homeland Security Presidential Directive, establishes under the office of president a new National Continuity Coordinator, all needed is a military strike against Iran then the disruption of oil suppliesa as a result of ensuing activities.
It’s all about the consolidation of power and “black gold” you see!!!! Reinforced by men and women in little black boxes!!!!!
Sometimes in the midst of talk about politics, it’s possible to get theoretical and not practical about Iraq. The CBS News report “Making Meaning Out of Loss” is touching. But the solution is not for more war widows to help each other deal with the situation. We need to change the situation for them.
“The American people elected Democrats to end the occupation, but they did not elect enough Democrats to do that over the obstinance of a President and delusions of his Vice President and those who cheer him on. We don’t have the votes to overcome a veto, yet, and so strategies in the future must deal with that.”
This puts it all in a very neat little nutshell, once again, Scarecrow, you have said as simply and efficiently as our ambiguous language will allow.
This simple truth should be the virtual starting point for all of us in the next election.
Taking back the gavels was only the beginning, and it has done amazing things for the well-being of our democracy. The recent and ongoing hearings into the DOJ scandal would have never occurred if we had not gained considerable power and authority last November.
Winning a veto-proof majority is our next prime directive. And that will require targetting all vulnerable R’s and some compliant Dems.
Scarecrow’s astute ovbservations in this single paragraph here should become our total focus. And these are not, by any means, baby steps, the last election and p[robably the next one will be viewed by historians throughout time as a virtual sea-change in the course of American and world politics.
It is the age when the public said “NO” to those who would deceive us just to protect their profane war and oil profits.
What Scarecrow said on #83.
And what Pelosi and the dems said, a few days ago….which was:
“Fuck you assholes. We’re NOT giving you the GET-OUT-OF-JAIL-FREE card. :o)
Fear of the FRAG!!!
I’ve been watching all these commencement, Coast Guard, Naval Academy etc. on CNN’s pipeline. Nothing made me angrier than watching George Bush, that traitor to the Republic, repeat his lies once again, in an obvious attempt to continue the pollution of the minds of our impressionable youth, and con them into thinking that their Iraq service will do something other than lead our best and brightest kids to an early demise under the desert sun, and further damage the Republic.
It’s too bad they don’t invite veterans of four and five tours in Iraq or Afghanistan, and veterans with their arms and legs blown off, to these little soir�es. The reason they don’t is because they’re to afraid that some US soldier who has seen the shit and the Shi’ites, will jump up on stage, stuff a grenade down Dick Cheney’s shorts, push him into the orchestra pit and make Al Anbar burgers out of his lying, never served a day in the military, can’t handle a shotgun loaded with birdshot, heart has rotted out because he never had any, punk ass.
[Mod Note; we understand your frustration, but would hope you would not wish this upon another human being]