The good first:
I went to a Saints game last night. And tailgated! (Well, actually tablegated, but the table was within hailing distance of the car.) I'd show pictures, but I got up late and spouse took the camera with him (with the SD card's contents not yet downloaded) before going out for the day.
The Saint Paul Saints are a independent-league baseball team that have been around since 1993, first as a founding team of the revived Northern League and now in the American Association. They are probably the most successful of the modern independent teams, both in terms of attendance and financial status, a success that is in large part attributed to their marketing skills and their irreverent, family-oriented take on the game. They're not afraid to poke (mostly) gentle fun at various pompous objects desperately in need of deflating; last night's "chase the children" event, a between-innings stunt in which various bad guys chase and fail to catch small kids circling the diamond, featured George Lucas as the children-chaser and butcherer re-editer of his own classic films.
Well, that was the good. And if good's what interests you right now, you might want to skip the rest of this post, because what I have to say might upset some people. (And if in the comments you just wanna discuss the good, that's ok, too.)
So, anyway:
I think I can say with some assurance that most of us reading this wanted the Democrats to succeed in forcing Bush to sign, right now, a bill containing a hard timetable for getting us — all of us (yes, mercenaries privateers military and "security" contractors, that means you, too) — out of Iraq. And, after months of trying, they gave up and — with a number of Democrats dissenting — gave Bush a three-month blank check.
That's the bad.
And then the firestorm started.
That's the ugly.
Everywhere in what is commonly called the "reality-based" portion of the blogosphere, rage took over. White-hot, righteous, unyielding rage. A rage that had in many ways been rehearsed to a degree, and planned for — a rational irrationality, if you will.
There's healthy spleen-venting; that's well and good. But this rage — especially over something that had been predicted would happen from the beginning because of the conventional wisdom, right or wrong, that the Democrats had no other realistic options — is different. It's all-encompassing and brooks no argument, no temporizing, not even the slightest dissent.
Here's just a small taste of what I'm talking about, for those who don't feel like wading through, say, the last week's worth of DU entries, Eschaton comments threads, FDL entries and threads, or Daily Kos diaries (even those by normally non-crazy people):
Joan Walsh, in a Salon column discussing and largely praising Keith Olbermann's thunderous condemnation of the Iraq cave-in, dared suggest he might have been "a bit over the top" to condemn them all. For that, she got slagged. Heavily. And repeatedly, and insanely.). All because while she agreed with Olbermann that caving was bad, she didn't want to tar all Dems with the same brush.
Meanwhile, at DKos (and I know this comes close to violating the DKos rule about "calling out" Kossacks, but if didn't I'd be slammed for not providing examples), one Kossack went and quit another Kossack's group because while they both agreed that capitulation was wrong, the second Kossack dared to suggest that it was time to quit beefing and get back to work pressuring the legislators. (And at least one other prominent Kossack actually posted a diary condemning the Dems who voted no — not yes, but NO — and ordering them off of DailyKos. And he wasn't alone in his thinking: the diary made the Recommended list in very short order.) Repeat that scene a few zillion times, and that's what Daily Kos has looked like the past few days. People who agree on most everything, including that the Democrats were wrong to give in, are now seeing each other as mortal enemies, worse than any Republicans. (And if they're attacking the people who agree with them on what the Democrats did, Lord help those who dare state, as Tomasky essentially did, that the Democrats had no choice in the matter.)
This is worse than the usual circular firing squad. And to me, it's ugly.
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Morning, PW!
hmm. a thought, indeed.
Hey fellow Minnesotan,
I would love a review of our representatives votes. I thought the votes were going to be Coleman: yes, Klobuchar: no, Ellison: no. As best I can determine (and I could be wrong but I can’t find the voting list on the websites) their actual votes were Ellison: no, Klobuchar: YES, and Coleman skipped the vote!
On to the topic…I tried making that point a couple of days ago.
To wit: who would win the most, and be the happiest, to watch all out warfare among the people who support the Democratic party?
Karl Rove and the Cheney administration.
Let’s consider that, and then think about what happened, why, and what is our best response.
I never got the logic that Dems would pay a price for not sending a bill or resending the same bill. 65% of Americans want to get out of Iraq; the slow dance is ugly and every day two Americans and 10 Iraqis die. America hates George Bush, now. He speaks and birds shit on him — yea, I know it is over used, even in a day.
NO ONE believes what he says. His AG is a liar and Bush keeps him and says “I have confidence in him.”
Well, America doesn’t have confidence in either of them.
Bully boy only has his bravado. Dems folded for NO reason.
That is why we are mad as hell.
I am displeased with my party. The Democratic Party.
Morning PW.
I’m with you on this.
Rage over things like this leads to 3rd party night-blind reactionary hiccups. I’ve seen enuf of those to last a lifetime. NO MORE!
We must file our disappointment however we can, and keep on trying to work together as progressives, liberals, Democrats, whatever you need to call yourself, guys….
p.s., I’m too old to care whether i’m a target or not. fire away, anyone who thinks they must… Just make sure you point yer weapon 1st. Don’t make me unleash my attack sparrow again…
Is anyone watching C-SPAN 1 with a repeat of the Monica Goodling, uh, shit?
Yep, I bet Rove and Cheney are REALLY scared that the Democrats will show some resolve and force subpoenas on everyone in the Bush admin. Yeah, right.
If you are going to talk shit……”new sheriff in town”…”rubber stamp days are over”….you better be ready to back it up with action.
If not, people think you are either a windbag or spineless and weak.
Instead we get to drink the “weak tea” that Harry Reid was bitching about.
It is the AUMF vote all over again and the Republican Party will use it the same way.
-GSD
Yes, but. It’s ugly, but here’s one thing: Democrats in Congress should be more afraid of going against their constituencies than they are of having Karl Rove and Co. saying bad things about them.
We must stop allowing the busheviks to define us, and to force our actions. The American public wants the US military out of Iraq, and out now.
I can find absolutely nothing in Mr. Olbermann’s very recent comment about the Demo cave in on Iraq to quibble with.
Wordsmith @ 8
GLAD to hear they’re showing it.
Been there. Saw that. Once is enuf for me, ewwww. But Kudos for the h/t ;->
I agree that it has been pretty rough over on Big Orange. I’ve largely stayed out the fights there, mainly because I was never prepared to tar the D’s with the same brush. That, and the fact that of my three representatives in Congress, only Sen. Durbin voted for it (Rep. Costello and Sen. Obama voted no). So I was actually pleased with my representation for the most part (though Durbin has some ’splaining to do).
I didn’t like KO lumping Obama’s late no vote with Sen. Clinton’s. A commentor on MyDD mentioned that Obama typically is one of the last to vote on any bill, and not just this one. Why he does that, I don’t know–but it certainly does not smack of “calculation” which is always the inevitable conclusion on anything Sen. Clinton does, rightly or wrongly.
Besides, you should have seen Big Orange during the infamous “pie fight” of some months back. That made the current contretemps look like a playground fight between two kindergartners.
Andy
Peterboy, the problem (as I see it) is that the Dems are not a unified block as the Republicans are (see the Monica Goodling hearing, where various Rethug congresscritters stood up and humiliated themselves with inanities in support of lying Monica).
Note that Nancy Pelosi wanted Rep. Murtha as Majority Leader. Well, she got Steny Hoyer. So the problem is not just that the Democrats in Congress do not have enough votes to force shrub to get out of Iraq, it’s that a lot of those Democrats aren’t rowing in the same direction.
We can hate on them and try to throw them out, but unless we can be sure we’re replacing a Rahmbo with somebody decent, it’s the Rethugs who will end up gaining. And they’ve proven they’ll do whatever Karl tell them to.
That’s the conundrum, as I see it.
I was looking forward to Reid & Pelosi’s creative ways to box Bush into a corner, make him squirm, get him all defensive and childish. I was looking forward to the Republican plan to have GIs complain about bullet shortages (as they were planning, and as Gary Trudeau accurately predicted). I was looking forward to the irony.
I was disappointed. Now all I have to look forward to is Republicans pointing at Democrats and claiming, truthfully, that it’s our war now.
Good morning, PW.
How did you find just the right title…
for what I find in the mirror this AM?
I had to leave in the midst of it before – work – and though I had wonderful lies provided to be legends of ‘firepups’, somehow I knew that my having exploding radioactive diarrhea with a dry hacking cough would make no difference to my employers. “We ARE in Radiology. We work around radioactive SHIT all day. GET IN HERE!”
I understand what you are saying. I even intelectualy have some agreement. venting against each other dosnt seem to get us anywhere.
The flipside, for me: I work with Veterans. This war scares the crap out of me. Once you’ve heard a couple people say “I died the day I killed that man”, it becomes a lot harder to keep perspective or accept, in any way or form “inevitability” on this. I have 0 room for conventional wisdom leading us, and even less for us buying into it. So what do we do?
Andy –
Is ‘Big Orange’ – kos?
Good morning, with wishes for a great enjoyable long weekend to all. Before I shut down this computer for the next few days, let me say that am not able to follow all topics as closely as the authors (and commenters) at FDL do.
I have always been wondering about how much leeway the dems have, and why underlying dynamics are hidden behind the ‘troup support’ label.
See contribution in truthout by Ann Wright, the former Colonel who left the army out of protest. Benchmarks, that’s what they are:
“On Thursday, May 24, the US Congress voted to continue the war in Iraq. The members called it “supporting the troops.” I call it stealing Iraq’s oil – the second largest reserves in the world. The “benchmark,” or goal, the Bush administration has been working on furiously since the US invaded Iraq is privatization of Iraq’s oil. Now they have Congress blackmailing the Iraqi Parliament and the Iraqi people: no privatization of Iraqi oil, no reconstruction funds.”
I know the dems basically had no choice but to cave, I’m over it. That being said, I will never stop putting pressure on them to come up with other ideas to get us out of this insane war. IMO the anger is boiling over because as we speak people are dying in Iraq. Americans, and Iraqi’s, women, and children, and for what? We got to Iraq based on LIES. I don’t understand how waiting until September is going to change things one bit. It will be the same story from the Republic party. The general will tell everyone progress is being made, give the surge a chance. They haven’t had enough time for things to work.
I just wish we could find a way out of Iraq yesterday.
Adie @ 7
Heh! Your attack sparrow could probably take me down in a heartbeat right now. I am sick and saddened at all of this. I almost didn’t post this today because I didn’t want the site to suffer on my account, but I felt that I had to speak out.
I also apologize for constantly editing on the fly here; I couldn’t find, among other things, the link to the Tomasky piece (I love The Guardian, but navigating their website is a pain).
There’s no shortage of strife on the Republican side either.
They may have unity on this piece of shit war but they are fired up about Fox News soft-peddling the immigration issue in favor of the Bush corporatists. They are ripshit about it.
In other news Bush is gonna stick it in Tony Blair’s ass on the way out the door and try to destroy any global warming initiatives.
In Iraq Al Sadr has reappeared and is looking to bring Sunni’s into the fold. He also said that for hard-line Muslims to threaten Christians into conversion “is a sin”.
The Brits just killed a reported top Mahdi militiaman in Basra and today their base was shelled.
If Sadr unites Sunni and Shia and decides to bring it on agains the US….it’s gonna be a long summer.
-GSD
Oklahoma kiddo @ 11
now yer gonna think I’M a fence-straddler.
i agree with YOU as WELL as PW.
We need to express our deep disgust/disappointment directly to our congresscritters, & the MSM.
BUT
We HAVE to continue trying to work together, in order to have any hope of success in the future.
I respect you enormously, OK.
I hope you can try to see where I’m coming from on this. I’m disgusted also, but pure disgust does not lead, in & of itself, to anything positive… at least in my book…
Charlie Brown is mad because Lucy pulled the football away…again!
She said she wouldn’t, but then she did…waaah!
same thing will happen in September, then again in 08, then the new (D) Decider will finally have the reins of power in their hands… and then will dither and continue the occupation because they don’t wan’t to be called soft or accused of losing…
so if only the idealism, passion and energy of the left blogosphere could someday snap out of the codependent marraige with the (D) party and cohere around an antiwar, anti neo-con 3rd party, we wouldn’t have to endure this charade every 2 years.
I have not made up my mind about third-party stuff. As to the possibility of my leaving the Democratic party? This 40 year, straight Demo ticket voting Democrat, will wait until after Nov. 2008. Probably.
sporkovat @ 25
oh.gawd……….. ‘ere we go…………….
Oklahoma kiddo @ 26
Now I’m beginning to see how hard it must’ve been for my dad to leave the Republican party in 2002. He’d voted Republican since being able to vote; he was 82 in 2002. He’s been in war; he knows. Christ, I know.
Adie… I hear you and understand what you’re telling me. :0)
Same goes for PW. ;0)
me, I don’t understand why the D’s allowed the votes to take place before the recess.
As it stands now, their trips home, and attendant fundraising efforts, are gonna really suck. The base is MAD.
OTOH, if they’d delayed the vote until just after the reurn from recess, there could have been both a spinal infusion, and better fundraising results.
Not only piss-poor execution, but poor planning pre-cave-in.
tbsa @ 21
Thank you. This I can understand and accept. Attacking people who voted the way one wanted them to, I cannot.
PW
Your posts strengthen this site and community beyond measure. Never hold back. Your instincts & delivery are right on target. ;->
ifthethunderdontgetya @ 4
DING!
Adie @ 27, ignore it….
Since I believe in what is good for America first, I think it is good to see Democrats screaming to thier leaders (and to other dems that don’t see this for what it is) about making a political decision, when they should have been making a moral decision. If this WASNT happening, it would be proof that the democratic party was no better than the repuglicans.
My bottom-line problem with the cave in is more dead bodies.
The Clint Eastwood film title you used above really fits these days. Only I would display the word good in mini 2-4 point typeface and the Bad and Ugly in something like Bold 48 points, and then it would describe my view of the Bush Cabal dominated world. His proteges in my more local world like Steven the Hump brained Harper and the Gordon Campbell Crime Family just add to the the appropriateness of large bold fonts for BAD and UGLY
I only discovered the posting “No Comment” by Lewis Koch this morning, but was fascinated by the discussion following it. Primarily the debate about whether Fitzgerald and Comey were given too much credit for being “good” guys. I think it is a sign of how morally and legally corrupt your (was mine, but I disowned it years ago) nation has become that such compromised figures can be beacons of righteousness.
My feeling is that if the government insists on continuing to ignore the law, eventually it will become the NORM for the people to ignore the law also and that will include a severe lack of respect for “property rights” of the propertied Repuklican class not to mention respect for life where a lead pill can cure the breathing.
I think Jefferson still said it best though he was referring to the transgressions of an earlier King George! The abstract Law is a fragile thing, but the Law of the Jungle is never far from being the real jurisdiction. Unless your government is made to realize it too must submit to the law, even Republicans, then don’t be surprised if people like the Bullshit Express McCain have to wear Flak Jackets to shop at Wal-Mart in Little Rock.
I love the reasoning and writing of lhp, marcy, jane and christy to mention only a few of my favorites here, but like the OKKid, I’m tired of seeing those who consider themselves the elite considering justice a two edged sword, dull on the side that applies to them and seeing Faux Noise keep the masses distracted from their exploitation.
There’s an old saying..”to cut off the nose to spite the face”. That is exactly what will happen if we persist in this circular firing squad. We’ll end up with the repugs back in power, and what exactly is the up-side to that? I’m not saying some dems don’t deserve our scorn, but get real already. If we end up as a fractured party, as the repugs are, we’re screwed.
ifthethunder–
I get that some Dems fear being tarred and feathered with that old cut-and-run stuff,
but America wants to leave, we hate Bush, don’t believe him.
The Dems who quaver need to get over that. In some ways, that the vote took place before they went home is good–they get to hear what we think. The DC bubble is toxic, the WaPost is what they read with their coffee.
Maybe, only a birdee and a great speaker can penetrate the bubble.
kdh22 @ 33
oh, and PW, great post!
I will turn 57 in a few days and after all those years of being against the vietnam war ( yes, even at 17 wrote a letter to my hometown newspaper about the ill advised and morally bankrupt war) waged by a democrat, against the US policy on palestine (aided by democrats), the nuclear arms race, then the regan years of bent knee press coverage starting after the asassination attempt, the contra wars and the deal making with Iran, and insane domestic policies of reagan and ad nauseum, I have come to a point where I am very tired of all the talk about how much we have to work with the system and be patient.
I am a lawyer and worked as a public defender for 15 years and have the gall to think that I know something about working in a system and patience so forgive me that I am not too worried about people getting upset about the way the democrats have handled this one. What scares me is that through all of this there is little appreciation by many democrats as to just how fanatical the current administration and all their lackeys truly are. These are not old syle battles with country club republicans. These new neo fascist repubs are brazen about their disregard for the law and the constitution. Whether driven by ideological belief, the idea that they are doing god’s will, or a fanatical devotion to big business matters not. These people are dangerous and they will not ever play by the rules and we as democrats largely refuse to recognise this and do not fight hard enough to stop them, so perhaps a little anger is needed.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 36
Mine too, but in all reality, this is what we were going to end up with no matter what. Bush would have found an end around whatever passed, and the blood would be on his hands. As it is now. On HIS hands.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 26
The problem with third parties on the left is that they are financed to a large degree by the GOP.
If Iraq or Iran or any other foreign country invades Oklahoma, kills our woman and children and attempts to steal our resources, and I fight back, am I then a “terrorist”?
BAGHDAD — A day after radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr resurfaced to end nearly four months in hiding and demand U.S. troops leave Iraq, American forces raided his Sadr City stronghold and killed five suspected militia fighters in air strikes Saturday.
U.S. and Iraqi forces called in the air strikes after a raid in which they captured a “suspected terrorist cell leader,” the U.S. military said in statement.
:rant:
to me, the problem is most everyone is playing politics instead of serving the best interests of the nation.
are our best interests being served in iraq? i haven’t heard a persuasive argument yet to support that and that’s why we should get out now. every additional death is a crime that will be hung around the war supporters necks forever. how many kids will die in the three months the dems gave the president?
the same reasoning applies to impeachment. high crimes and misdemeanors were committed and therefore impeachment must be pursued for the sake of intellectual integrity at the very least.
do politicians really believe history will judge them kindly for sticking their fingers in the political winds while history’s most reckless and criminal president dismantles the american state and terrorizes the middle east?
for f*ck’s sake, 2/3’s of the country is behind taking control away from the bush mafia. why aren’t they scared of being in the minority of public opinion? i generally don’t support message or issue purity, but we are talking about an illegal war and constitutional abuses that threaten our way of life. it’s time to make our elected officials feel the pain of their foolish decisions.
enough already…
:/rant:
virginia cynic @ 41
great comment.
i think this is right — we just need
to avoid tearing ourselves apart — for them,
saving them the trouble — i think, is
PW’s larger object-lesson, here. . .
Wordsmith @ 19
Yes, that’s Daily Kos. It’s also been called The Great Orange Satan more than once!
Andy
ifthethunderdontgetya @ 4
Exactly. Up to now, I’ve counted my blessing that I wasn’t old enough to remember 1968 and how that sundered and crippled the Democrats. Now it looks like I may get to relive that all over again, this time as an adult.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 29
Thank you for that, OK. It means a lot.
fwiw, when I saw Sherrod Brown in the YEA column, a little part of me died right then & there…
I’m clinging to a slim hope that folks who think “something else is going on, & about to break” are correct. Jr.s acting weird-er than usual, almost frantic, even tho he just got his way on this.
That columnist – whoever it was??? – who described the new war czar as standing there, with a whole line of condi, jr., shooter, etc. etc. all hiding behind him….
The, ahem, D.C. madam’s secret list….
Monika’s squeekyvoice idiocy actually gaining “legs” as a story, in spite of even C-Span initially ignoring her….
meanwhile, the killing goes on & on & on with no letup, and I can’t stand that anymore either. ENOUGH! IT HAS TO STOP! IT MUST BE STOPPED!
I’m still naive enuf to DEMAND IMPEACHMENT of both jr.&shooter N.O.W!
enough shouting by me.
NEXT?
p.s., i’m so proud a’ my lil’ sparruh, i could just hug ‘er. she’s pooped…, s’cuse, exhausted…, oh dang, TIRED! but if she could fly all the way from here to D.C. & back, the rest of us can find a way to keep going. we just HAVE to. eh?
tbsa @ 34
SMACK!
Thanks. i needed that. ;->
Phoenix Woman @ 48
PW — earlier you wrote:
. . .There’s healthy spleen-venting; that’s well and good. But this rage — especially over something that had been predicted would happen from the beginning because of the conventional wisdom, right or wrong, that the Democrats had no other realistic options — is different. It’s all-encompassing and brooks no argument, no temporizing, not even the slightest dissent. . .
in my humble opinion, this won’t be 1968.
i agree with all you’ve written, save that.
i think we — as a party — are better than
that, now. . . and honestly, with the internet,
we are in command of the information-stream,
ourselves — it is up to us to do what we
can with it, to stay united; to move forward;
not to be goaded-into-tearing-ourselves-apart.
just my $0.02.
Good post, Phoenix Woman. As one of those with white-hot rage, I actually think this reaction is a good thing. It is, without question, emotion that will cool, but never entirely pass. Which is a good thing, too — we should never forget that we’re fighting forces that don’t cleave cleanly along Republican/Democrat lines. In large part, this is a fight against the corporatists.
In any case, my rage has cooled into a the tempered steel of a mighty sword of resolve. This is the ultimate good. I will, despite some prior wailings of mine, continue to work with the Democratic party. However, I am reminded that they are not allies, they are the best shot at forming (I intentionally avoid saying “reforming”) a party that represents actual human beings rather than corporate interests. I will stay with them not because I “have nowhere else to go,” as someone somewhere postulated, but because they are, in fact, my best shot. I don’t think this is just a semantic difference.
Some people will leave the Dems over this. That’s a shame, but in the end, I don’t think it will be a major setback.
There’s a great cry of pain (beginning to fade across the board — that level of emotion can’t, and shouldn’t, be maintained for very long), but it’s catharsis. It sends us a lesson. Many of us will change how we work with the Dems. I see this frequently with comments from people affirming they will suppport individual candidates but not the party machine. We will, in the end, be stronger and more successful as a result.
Lets hope the Dems can become a real alternative political party by 2008. Because I’m not inclined to just grin and bear it.
My suggestion to those who say don’t worry about the “cave-in”, would be to enlist. And the sooner, the better.
Ugly is the new Pretty, phoenix woman
As for Joan Walsh she can’t be slagged enough!
Of course I’m speaking from personal experience with the bitch in that she contracted a hit piece of me for daring to “out” the barebacking of her Pet Homosexual Patient Less Than Zero
virginia cynic @ 41
That is the problem in a nutshell — the Beltway Democrats just don’t get it.
They don’t understand why they won last November, and don’t understand that the BushCo GOP is an organized crime syndicate.
The American People understand, despite the nonstop GOP propaganda from the MSM. The country is ready for decisive leadership, and the Democrats give us milquetoast capitulation.
Why was Karl Rove at the Capitol? A victory lap, for his latest rat fuck.
nolo @ 46
That’s exactly it.
It’s one thing to focus one’s rage on deserving targets. It’s quite another to become so rage-addicted that we attack those who don’t deserve it even more viciously than those who do.
Phoenix Woman @ 48
Precisely.
From your keyboard to the Dem leaders’ inboxes, PW.
What (legal acts) must transpire for the Dem leaders to fear their constituents more than they fear the GOP?
And how can they be accomplished well before Denver?
It’s not too late for the Dem leaders to come home to their constituents – but that will require genuine events, not transparent Beltway wordplay and symbolic votes.
should we “sheep” all go back to our normal wanderings? or is some of this emotion good for the country? Bottom line is we are dealing with POLITICIANS ………. remember? Very few put the interest of the USA and the constituion above politiKing. This is a life and death matter for so many ….. but then if we go back to our normal “there is no war” routine we can claim (as the Germans did in 1945-46) that …. gee, I did not know that. …. Sounds like a Bush admin excuse for everything
Here’s the reality…
“While troops are still in Iraq, Americans overwhelmingly support continuing to finance the war, though most want to do so with conditions. Thirteen percent want Congress to block all money for the war.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05…..ref=slogin
The thing that has to happen is to not let the Bushiviks throw the war into the laps of the Dems or anyone else. We need to let the WH fight it out amongst themselves. There seems to be several things going on simultaneously.
1. There may be a rift between the Cheney war-mongering camp and the Bush/Gates Poppy intervention scenario happening.
2. Pelosi and Reid would be aware of 1.
3. I think Bush will attempt to follow the timeline Pelosi and Reid were asking for and try to take credit politically for withdrawal or redeployment of some or most of the troops (but reality is, the U.S. will NEVER completely leave Iraq)
4. Although Pelosi and Reid are getting pummeled right now by their own party, if there is significant movement toward some kind of withdrawal or redeployment in “September”, it will be because of their maneuvering and pressure in an almost impossible situation now. Pelosi and Reid want to end the war because the war is wrong. The Repubs that get on the bandwagon in “September” are doing so because of politics.
This is Bush’s war and the Republican’s war. The blood is on his administration’s hands and on the hands of those (including Dems) who vote to prolong it. The fight for peace is the Dem’s fight, and there is nothing the Busheviks can do to change that.
The crime is that for each month that goes by, about 100 soldiers and countless Iraqis are killed. To delay withdrawal for political posturing is unforgivable.
I still say, hold yer fire.
FWIW, I understand the vote and somewhat understand at least on some level why some of the Dems felt no choice. The reality is the lack of senate votes for anything but the most puerile and limited “benchmarks.”
What I do not understand is the fear of being tarred with cut and run. The reality is, that will happen regardless of how individual Dems vote. We need to accept that as a fact, correctly offer the TRUTHFUL rebutttals and move on. I guess it’s the fear that bothers me the most. It goes to the lack of spine and resolve and is what puts the Rahm Emmanuels in control. It’s also playing directly into the Chimpenfuhrer’s MO:
FearFearFearFearFearFearFearFearFearFearFearFearFear and so on and so forth ad infinitum.
i bet it was pragmatic to support hitler for awhile too…
nolo 51
nicely said ;->
nolo @ 51
I hope you’re right. Maybe it’s because I spend so much time online at all the places I’ve mentioned (and a few others too), and to see the rage just totally take over all of those places scares me.
My husband, who does not spend much time online (thank goodness), is helping me see the non-internet-junkie’s viewpoint. When I mentioned the firestorm over the Iraq supplemental to him last night, he said this:
“It’s not a big win for Bush at all. If it was, he’d be having a big public signing ceremony in the White House. Instead, he’s doing it quietly and privately, in his mini-vacation at Camp David before he goes for his full vacation in Crawford.”
I’d never thought about it that way before. And to me, this might indicate that the supplemental is pissing off a fair number of Republican voters as well as Democratic ones.
I hope he’s right, let’s put it that way!
peterboy @ 38
I’ll go beyond saying some of the Democrats fear being tarred and feathered…some of them are horrible, war-supporting hypocrites. And this is why some of those who might do the right thing are instead afraid being tarred and feathered. Because that is exactly what would happen when the whole effort fails, thanks to the presence of too many Steny Hoyers and Rahm Emmanuels and Ellen Tauschers. (P.S. I get that is what is going to happen anyways, and yeah I’m not happy with how this whole fiasco went down either…but it did.)
But again, what should we do? I’m all in favor of primary challenges, but the reality is a lot of the worst are in areas where you get DINO or a Republican.
How about a list of people we will continue to support (which implies a list of people we won’t, and yet sends a more positive message :-), and a list of people where we think we can make an effective primary challenge?
Bill @ 58
No, no, a thousand times no! The outcry and rage results from the fact that many (myself included, to an extent) looked at the Dems as white nights. This is the outrage of the disillusioned. And disillusionment can be a great thing. It brings you closer to reality.
To those who are enraged, I say GOOD. That’s exactly right. Now, act effectively for change. A very effective path can be to take over the Democratic party, work to rid it of its perverse elements and shape it to represent you better. The religious right did it to the Republican Party (sorry for the comparison), the good guys can do it to the Democratic Party.
But you can’t do it at all when you drop out the game altogether.
I am going, with ‘the people’ to Navajo Cemetery (about fifteen miles due north) which lies at the foot of the Navajo Mountains later today to put flowers on my father’s and his brother’s grave. Each of these guys served in WWII in the Navy and Army. All of them saw action. Big action. That was a war that had to be fought. This so called Iraq War was and is, unecessary.
peterboy @ 5
Exactly!! People seem to forget, Gingrich tried to shut the government down when Clinton’s approval ratings were close to double what the Commander Guy’s are now. With approval ratings in the shitter, does the Commander Guy have as much leverage as people seem to think? Or do Congressional Dems suck at PR(like they always seemingly do)?
virginia cynic @ 41
Amen. After the sound and fury abates a little (and I believe it will)we will regroup and continue to fight. We absolutely must fight these lawless unAmerican cowards at every single turn.
A circular firing squad on our side won’t get that done.
We will fight them until hell freezes over and then we will fight them on the ice.
Impeaching Cheneybush is a pipedream…
impeachment was rendered moot as a tool of accountabiltiy by the Clenis operation. it will not resuscitated in my life-time (another 15-20 years), except unless there is another majority-fascist Congress and a less-fascistic Executive from the other party. any effort by the Dems now to impeach (uproot) the cheenybush will be portrayed by the lap-dog press as pay-back for clenis, no matter what crimes with which the criminals are charged…
impeachment of abu bin gonzo, of course, would be a nice event…but even that might prove to be impossible, given the make-up of the Senate. Gonzo’s main and essential job–as i have been saying for weeks–from now until the election gets into full swing is to be a lightning rod and a distraction. i expect his behavior to become more and more outrageous, not less… he’s not a chastened civil servant, he’s an agent of the vast, right-wing conspiracy to steal america. this will be abetted by the 80 USAttys whose loyalty has already been adjudged (by Monica Goodling) sufficient that they needn’t be replaced in order to facilitate the shenanigans–voter obstruction, mainly–they are charged with effecting.
the dems have just enough power to be blamed for not having enough power to change anything….
and that was fuuuuukin BRILLIANT!
.
President Low Normal telling David Gregory “They’re a threat to your children” reminds me of Tim Robbins holding up the Hula Hoop in The Hudsucker Proxy and saying “It’s for the kids.”
Speaking of baseball. Listened to an interview with Boog Powell last night and one with Robin Roberts today. It’s amazing how these old timers remember every pitch, every hit. They really make Gonzo look like an idiot.
Have not read the comments yet. If otherwise stated here is a duplicate. Any General worth their salt makes sure the troops under his command fears him far more than they fear the enemy. What is occurring now is making sure both Congressfolk and Senators know whom to fear, should they desire to continue their career come 08. And well fear these represenatives should be, they, with a certainty, shall be out of office with any more concessionary foolishness. There may be millions of dollars in a bank, but precious few votes. Paraphrasing Willy Horton, us is where the votes are.
Back to the top of the comments. All the best…….
The cave-in OUGHT to demonstrate beyond even the faintest shadow of a doubt that the efforts of the blogosphere, MoveOn, etc. etc. etc. are absolutely worthless.
You heard me, absolutely worthless. THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN & CAN’T BE FIXED. There’s just one shade or the other of the corporate state, the good cop/bad cop routine. The American experiment is over, chilluns. You can argue all the kumbayah crap you want, exhort people to do whatever, but it’s to zero avail. It’s busted. It really, really, really is busted. You can’t reform it from within. Pressure legislators? What a sick joke. If you’re still at that stage, you’re still blind.
The question then remains, how does one live one’s life? Well, millions of humans before us have lived at such cusps of history and somehow still kept finding someone to love, eating, and washing out their bowls afterwards. I’m afraid this time the change will be rather more catastrophic, but the fact is you just have to cut your egoistic ties to the existing structure and find new paths.
That’s a good thing, IMHO. Best of luck to all…
The one thing that bothers the shit out of me is that people like PW are basically saying there is no way to force Commander Codpiece to get the troops out before he leaves office, because if not now, when? The Decider knows the Dems will just cave next time as well. Rahm and his boys and girls are afraid of the big bad wolf(Rove and his henchmen). If they are afraid now, why would they be less afraid in September?
I agree with the point about not tarring all Democrats with the same feather. Still, 12 no votes in the Senate is pretty disappointing.
Also, however advantageous Rove and Cheney may think this kind of so-called warfare within the liberal and progressive ranks is, it is actually a display of the Democratic Party’s greatest strength, as well as hope for its future. The Democratic Party is diverse, a constantly churning machine, and disagreements like this serve to shift dynamics within it. If people aren’t happy with the Democratic Party they’ve got, they are free to try to change it. Events like this politicize some people further, even while they de-politicize others who may walk away for a while in frustration. I don’t believe it’s wise to give up, or to adopt the other side’s habit of intra-rank alienation over battle loses or disagreements, but I can understand it in the passion of the moment. I just hope that in the end there is a net gain.
Do something that the Dems will feel and see. I call for a general strike against the Democratic party, all of it, for 3 months. Since they see fit to do what they are carping (rightfully) on the Iraqis for doing – going on a summer vacation while the war rages – in response to their ignoring a supermajority of the electorate and giving Bush a blank check, we go on full strike. Cancel your Democracy Bonds. Do NOT give any money to the DSCC, the DCCC, or any other party apparatus/organization. If you receive one of their postage-paid envelopes asking for money, send it back with a letter inside (but NO money) telling them that you are on a Democratic Party Donation Vacation for 3 months. That in response to their total capitulation (and it was total) to Mr 28%, they will be receiving NO money for 3 months. Also terminate your subscription to any and all Democratic mailing lists.
A general strike for 3 months is in order.
They ignore us when we vote them into the majority with a specific and clear mandate. They ignore us when we send faxes, make phonecalls, send emails. Let’s see them ignore a drastic drop in donation$ for 3 months.
Good God, a circular firing squad is the least of anybody’s worries.
Let the dead horse (donkey) lie and move on.
Cozumel @ 59
Exactly. That’s even worse than the recent CNN poll, which showed that 60% of Americans don’t want to end the war by cutting funding for it.
The public wants the war to end, but they’ve been trained to think that the Democrats wanted to “cut funds to the troops” when in fact the bills the Democrats had been promoting up to now provided for a fully-funded withdrawal.
And of course there’s the long-standing belief that the Democrats paid a high electoral price for ending the Vietnam War by cutting off its funding — a belief that doesn’t seem to have much basis in fact, yet is powerful and persistent.
Re: “These new neo fascist repubs are brazen about their disregard for the law and the constitution. Whether driven by ideological belief, the idea that they are doing god’s will, or a fanatical devotion to big business matters not. These people are dangerous and they will not ever play by the rules and we as democrats largely refuse to recognise this and do not fight hard enough to stop them, so perhaps a little anger is needed.”
Anger is needed to counter the unlawful fanatics, but so are well thought out investigations. If the SJC, HJC, and House Oversight Comm. can deliver a shattering blow to the White House over the next four months, I think arguably more could be accomplished by defunding/establishing a withdrawal date then than if defunding had occurred now. As commented above, even with defunding now, there is enough time and wiggle room for Bush to violently respond, potentially with an even worse outcome.
A popular analogy used in this scenario has been if you just punch a bully in the nose, he’ll skulk and back down.
The analogy that keeps popping up in my mind is that Dems are in a fight to the death with Bush/neocons. The passage of the original bill by Congress mandating a withdrawal date was like Dems grabbing the knife in Bush’s hand. Bush’s veto showed he isn’t letting go of the knife. This 4 month funding outcome is like wrestling him down to the floor with both still having a grip on the knife in what remains a deadly situation. Congress defunding the war this week would be like the knife getting jarred out both Dems’ and Bush’s hands with a scramble to be the first to pick it up.
The difference between today and four months from now is that someone else in the room could be there to step on the knife. That’s where the ongoing Congressional investigations come in. The next four months are extremely important. Cannnot let up on the pressure.
Phoenix Woman @ 64
He might be right, but the vote also shows a lack of willingness of those in Washington to do the right thing. Too many of them need a spine transplant.
Muzzy 78,
Yes.
Joe Conason had a great piece in Salon yesterday about what happened this week
http://www.salon.com/opinion/c…..iraq_plan/
I believe this is right. The Democrats keep falling into the same pothole over and over again on Iraq by allowing Rove to frame what the debate is all about. We need a more coherent and disciplined message that not only speaks to the truth about Iraq (there is no military solution) but is also compelling.
The Democratic leadership needs to get its framing act together and shift the terms of the debate. Until they do we will see the very same votes repeated over and over again.
What we suffered this week was a political failure by our leadership. It’s time to get the politics of Iraq right and God Knows we’ve got the American people on our side.
“The Good” one hour with General John Batiste and Amy Goodman at Democracy Now!
http://www.democracynow.org/ar…..25/1456242
THAT is a better situation than Bush with knife still in his hands. That is a better situation in ANY situation. If your opponent is disarmed and you need to scramble to acquire the weapon yourself, that is BETTER than your opponent holding onto the weapon.
The odds go UP in your favor in the latter case. You can also continue to pummel the shit out of the bastard while he’s on the floor while he tries to reach the fallen weapon. One way or another, you draw blood and inflict pain. And that is good.
yellowdogD @ 38
Amen. Democrats will be swiftboated no matter what they do, and (to mix a metaphor) if you want to win a race, you don’t shoot your own horses.
spurious @ 84
The irony now is that even the Swiftboater (Jerome Corsi) is Swiftboating Bush!
Demos who voted for the Iraq War didn’t know this?
BAGHDAD – Months before the invasion of Iraq, U.S. intelligence agencies predicted that it would be likely to spark violent sectarian divides and provide al-Qaeda with new opportunities in Iraq and Afghanistan, according to a report released Friday by the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence. Analysts warned that war in Iraq also could provoke Iran to assert its regional influence and “probably would result in a surge of political Islam and increased funding for terrorist groups” in the Muslim world
The intelligence assessments, made in January 2003 and widely circulated within the Bush administration before the war, said that establishing democracy in Iraq would be “a long, difficult and probably turbulent challenge.”
last point in this fdl driveby.
dems can’t seem to read this unfolding narrative and where it’s going. nothing good will come out of this whole iraq debacle. it will more than likely be pointed to as the central reason behind the fall of the greatest empire of the modern world.
it’s shocking they can’t see this but they will when the story is finally written and their names are prominently listed in the special thanks…
Bill @ 58
Bill, as I’ve already said:
It’s one thing to attack people with whom we disagree. It’s quite another to be attacking those with whom we agree — and who vote the way we wanted them to vote (see above post, it’s been edited to add more cites since I first put it up) — more viciously than those with whom we don’t.
Phoenix Woman:
“Exactly. Up to now, I’ve counted my blessing that I wasn’t old enough to remember 1968 and how that sundered and crippled the Democrats. Now it looks like I may get to relive that all over again, this time as an adult.”
I would gently suggest to you that you should find some of the video of the convention and see the daley thugs stop Ribicoff from speaking and then watch the interplay of that behavior with that of the chicago police. I remember watching it live on tv and almost being physically sick. I can tell you that from my experience that one’s reaction to that whole event said a great deal about a person. My memory of it is so clear because I remember watching with a girlfriend who was not appalled or thought that people should not have protesting in the way that they were only to find out three years later that a new girlfriend and later my wife had been arrested in the Chicago police riot as she worked for Gene McCarthy at the convention.
So the convention was a great divide but at least one could answer the old union organizing song ” Which Side are You On?”
yellowdogD @ 42
And this is what we have to communicate. If democrats are capable of talking points, this is what should be on on everybody’s lips.
Err, no, the Democratic “leadership” needs to be purged and new leadership installed. Rahm, Reid, Pelosi, the ENTIRE DLC crew, are anathema to the best interests of democracy and America. They have failed, failed, failed, failed and will continue to fail. Leaders lead and they sure as hell don’t ignore their clear mandates for (perceived) personal gain.
“The Very, Very, Very Bad and the Very very Ugly” is U.S.
Every American should take a look at the enviroment that our invasion created so that ethnic cleansing could take place in Iraq. Many in Iraq believe the “cakewalk in Iraq” zealots knew exactly what they were doing!
http://www.robert-fisk.com/ira….._page1.htm
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/
A party is not an end in itself, it is a tool for getting the right laws and governance for the people.
‘68 was the result of the party refusing to end a n unjust war … as today, the party refuses to act too end an unjust war and instead choses to be complicit in that war.
Seems to me, that is something to rage against.
The natives appear restless.
i have no answers – i’m just tired of supporting candidates who give bushco what he wants – and tell us that things will change……. uhhhh exactly when? i’ve gotten recent appeals from all the usual dem groups – i’ll not give my limited funds to these guys to ignore me – i can better spend my lil change elsewhere….
Siun @ 95
;0)
It’s one thing to attack people with whom we disagree. It’s quite another to be attacking those with whom we agree
the dems who are triangulating on this are worse than the goops in my opinion. seriously, how dare they?
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 70
confooschion here…
how does u s’plain the 2500 xtra worry-wrinkles in jr’s fawhedd, hiss’n wagglin’/shouttin’/gesticulatin’ gettin-pooped? that-thar’s one magnificoh zample of ‘n monumentally-worried-wizard thereinabouts. stoopid din’ neither cause it nor block it.
IT.JUS’.BE!
sparruh tole me so….
u godda problum widdat?
Anyone know how much this war has cost so far?
Re: “THAT is a better situation than Bush with knife still in his hands. That is a better situation in ANY situation. If your opponent is disarmed and you need to scramble to acquire the weapon yourself, that is BETTER than your opponent holding onto the weapon.”
This is where the analogy gets tricky. Bush is lying and lawless but there IS a limit to what he can get away with depending on the amount of entropy or chaos introduced. More entropy means Bush/neocons do more harm. Defunding today could introduce greater entropy in a fight with Bush. By Congress funding for 4 more months, they are holding the knife with him instead of there being a chaotic scramble to pick it up first. As counterintuitive as it seems, I think it limits his options by preserving some order to a fight we want to end immediately AND safely. In four months, Bush very well could be forced to let go of the knife outright which isn’t possible today.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 67
thank you for that.
may we join you in spirit? ;->
Virgina Cynic – percisely
If folks don’t wake up to the reality of the “leadership” we have, there is no hope of changing the actions our country takes.
while we get our asses handed to us – are we to just sit back – relax and let things work out somehow – WHAT!
VEECK!
Thanks PW for that bit of sanity.
But I’m still confused. I’ve said this at least twice now, but I’ll say it again. When it became clear that the bill was going to pass, even senators who agreed with the bill could freely build good will for themselves by voting against it, i.e., voting against an unpopular war brought upon us by a now very unpopular president. I was like free money, just sitting there to be picked up. But 40 democratic senators didn’t bother to pick it up, including some (Webb, Levin, and Byrd to name three) who strongly oppose both the president and his war. WHY NOT?
Re the failure of the Dems to get their act together, Will Rogers said it a long time ago: I am not a member of an organized political party. I am a Democrat.
Kevster @ 82The Democratic leadership needs to get its framing act together and shift the terms of the debate.
Wow. The Saints.
In 1997, Ila Borders became the first woman to pitch in men’s professional baseball.. hurling for the Saint Paul Saints…
6,329 saw her pitch that night..
Some Democrats view the Democratic Party’s steady and unequivocal support for peace, diplomacy and no unprovoked wars as a necessary condition for remaing in the party.
Somebody commented a couple of days ago that a scandal is brewing bigger than all the others put together. I’m still wondering if it is true and what it is. Any ideas?
Praedor Atrebates @ 93
careful, don’t step on that loose shoelace there…
From the cost of war website, it is estimated that $429 Billion has been spent.
Why are we spending $429B to steal oil?
I will keep the pressure on my party.
The meme of the “circular firing squad” was useful when it represented the craven actions of elected Dems who backed Bush and his policy.
To criticize activists for being part of a “circular firing squad” when they call our Dems who back Bush and his policy strikes me as ridiculous.
Not happy with the outcome and I have a nephew who heads to Iraq this weekend. That being said, the only party trying to end the war is the Democratic Party as flawed as it is. You don’t see the Republicans, even though they know this is killing them in the polls, trying to end it. Like it or not, the Dems are currently the only option in the Congress. So vent and then get back to work.
ccmask @ 112
Because Bush, Cheney, Condi etal. are in the oil business.
ccmask @ 101
500 to 600 Billion — headed for a Trillion before it’s over.
In short, the way I see it US in Iraq is nothing less than a robbery of oil and a massacre of its people. When this takes place and rights like habeas corpus are thrown aside like a dixie cup and our blood and treasure are used against our constitution and all of humanity then I don’t care what party or religion one abuses to justify such madness.. Anyone in any party who fights against this with every fiber of their being has my respect and support. As for my party if the center and right of it wins with capitulation and approval of mass murder and mass theft…well then, I have to reconsider everything… I simply have to. Some things are far more important than going along with the group/party. I want to earn our way of life not kill and steal for it. I want to embrace and expand our constitution…not curse it and shread it.
Al Gore spoke to this last night on Charlie Rose. He clearly stated our democracy is in serious trouble. If one agrees with him as I do, then one must get outside the box while considering all options during a fight for restoration of integrity and liberty and fact based governance.
For example I have a Leiber-loving Senator Pryor with a D by his name.. I could no more vote for him than Joe, no matter the competition or pandering lies or declared party.
Unfortunately I was away during the votes this week and would really appreciate anyone who could direct me to the actual bill nubers in relation to the war votes… Pachs post was a bit confusing on that..(and he admitted it)
But I was relieved to see such anger… it is fu**ing long overdue.. I thought, Finally the well earned outrage at our leaders comes out! May all who feel it hold it for now and direct it accordingly as PW correctly suggests.. We are going to need it!
Would the administration begun to bring back troops even if there had been so-called “binding” timetables? My guess is no. He certainly has violated every other agreement, law, treaty, or constitutional provision as he pleased.
Maybe in exchange for “binding” legislation on the funding bill they got the other legislation they wanted – like minimum wage increases – wrapped up with the appropriations in a veto-proof form, and sucked it up on the optics. Because George Bush will not bring the soldiers back until he is good and ready to, no matter what happens.
Okay, that’s my devil’s advocate post for the day, and I’m not even sure I believe it, but these thoughts have been stirring around in my brain for a couple of days, and I’d like to see what others think.
OKK,
You’re on the Nation this weekend?
I’m with PW on this one. We never had the votes to overcome a veto, and the correct goal always was to force the republicans to take responsibility for the war. I argued on several of Scarecrow’s posts that the best thing would be short term funding, and that is what we have now. Every time we get more people to vote with us, and eventually we win.
It takes republicans to make up for Democratic no votes, so each time we have a vote, they are hanging the problem around their own necks. We run moderate dems against the dead-ender republicans, and we pick up bigger margins.
I realize that the war is a huge moral issue, and that we are pursuing a wrongful course. I think this is no different than the Viet Nam war. It takes a long time to turn the government around. Step by step, little steps first, then longer ones, then we win.
ccmask @ 101
The War in Iraq Costs
$428,482,377,962
See the cost in your community
http://nationalpriorities.org/…..Itemid=182
Fern @ 121
The bush maladministration will NEVER consider leaving Iraq until the oil legislation is passed. It is after all what we are doing there.
virginia cynic @ 90
I’m not just thinking of the convention, but the events leading up to it, the reasons that LBJ was forced not to run again — LBJ, who escalated Kennedy’s Vietnam War but also gave us the Great Society, who did more for civil rights than any president outside of Lincoln and Grant, who expanded and consolidated FDR’s New Deal, and whose hard work gave us the governmental infrastructure that Reagan and the Bushes and their Republican-dominated Congresses have been so cheerfully destroying over the last quarter-century and more.
The sad thing is LBJ was doomed on the left by the war and doomed on the right by his backing of civil rights. That led to Chicago — and to Nixon, and to the continuance of the Vietnam War (there were peace talks in Paris in 1968, but Candidate Nixon secretly sent Anna Chan Chennault to ensure they didn’t succeed) as well as the mass migration of Southern Democrats into the Republican Party.
Eureka – the bill passed was HR 2206 The Senate concurred.
How passing this bill makes the Republicans own the war is beyond me … we all own this war so long as we do not stop it.
I don’t have anything new to add but my very real visceral rage at the insanity I am surrounded with, feckless leaders who fail to grasp the seriousness of the attack on our constitution and talking about war, while forgetting the awful consequences of those fighting it, as if they didn’t exist, it is bullshit that they could do nothing, there were options they chose not to take and I hold them in contempt. What I am truly thankful for is this community of very intelligent people that inform me that I am far from alone, thank you all.
Maddy
Texas is in the middle of a mini-revolution!
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..21818/1703
Will Libby continue to run free? How twisted … Spend a great deal of tax payers money to investigate, prosecute and then Libby gets a pardon. The whole world is laughing.
We are watching and waiting for justice. We are waiting Fitz for your words to ring true “that truth is the engine of our justice system”
Libby..
http://www.nysun.com/article/55228
So taxpayers are actually laying out all of the money, our troops are paying in blood and limbs, and the oil magnates get an international business all set up to make money for themselves. It just never ceases to amaze me why people aren’t in the streets. There are 16 people in our company and you NEVER NEVER hear anyone discuss the fact that there is a war. I almost envy them their stupidity.
Great post PW and I love the Dirty Harry graphic, simply perfect. He is a lot older with white hair these days but still personifies his dated moniker Dirty Harry.
And yeah I know, he remains iconic especially among the fellows but the aptly nick-named movie star isn’t a very happy zillionaire this holiday weekend. Brit journalist Andrew Gumbel fired a salvo exposing Clint (and the governator) for the rethuglican rat bastards they truly are in their hidden political machinations.
For the whole sorry story check out Gumbel’s LA City Beat expose:
http://www.lacitybeat.com/arti…..sueNum=206
Sorry PW but LBJ ran on the platform of “getting our boys out of Vietnam” … and he then sent more. He was not doomed by the left, he lied.
I remember is very clearly since I worked my butt off as a young kid for him precisely because he made that promise. It was a very good lesson … hold their feet to the fire.
masaccio @ 123
Exactly.
LS @ 111
I think the ‘vote caging’ story has the potential.
Palast is reporter with integrity. He’s got smoking gun emails that were acknowledged as authentic by Republican officials. Vote caging was introduced through testimony under oath by Goodling last Wednesday, so now it’s officially out there. That could be huge. This ties together the DoJ and the White House through the US Attorney scandal. If THAT isn’t enough to blow them all to hell, depending on the legal wedge that this represents, there could be an awful lot of momentum for the high courts to approve of forcing a load of disclosure of ‘privileged’ information.
.
Bay State Librul @ 109
Yup! She actually wasn’t that bad for a Northern League pitcher, though her career was stopped by a bout of severe food poisoning just as she was getting really good.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 115
;->
I quote Arthur Silber…
We should endeavor to be minimally honest, despite the fact that even an infinitesimal amount of veracity will forever destroy the continuation of our deadly political charade. The only reason — the only reason — the Democrats strongly criticize the Iraq chapter in our book of Empire is that it has “failed.” In terms of the moral principles implicated, it had to fail, since it was and is a war and occupation of aggression, waged against a nation and a people that never constituted any serious threat. Such moral factors are, of course, entirely irrelevant to our ruling elites; in the name of realism, let us therefore set them aside.
Too right, Arthur. The dems are only a little better than the republicans. If this illegal war had been at all successful, there would be no outrage from most of our democratic leaders.
I have watched and listened over the past years, the hue and cry form politicians and citizens alike, decrying the over-partisanation of our politics. And the left has been loud and vociferous. But the truth be told, partisan politics didn’t happen by fiat from the almighty… we did it! And if we don’t like it, we can and should undo it.
That means simply STOP! come back to rationality, if need be to nationality (you know the good of country over self), to humanity. If you don’t like the bitterness, meaness and viciousness of our politics – STOP! You don’t need to answer every argument with anger and accusation, no matter how correct you think you are. That’s what the White House does. You don’t have to respond to each irrational accusation with vitriol, that’s what Coulter does. Yelling at me will not convince me of anything but how upset you are. It sure won’t sway me to your side.
Politics is about building. Building support. Building coalitions. Building creditability and trust. It is about finding common ground to swell your support. Engage in it. Politics is about strategy and policy. Develop it, discuss it, refine it. But most of all, politics is about flexibility. The ability to change and refine and adapt to the ever changing environment.
You and I are responsible for changing that which we don’t like and don’t feel is good for the body politic. We cannot escape that responsibility by blaming someone else for “starting it” or for “doing it” or for “not stopping it!” We’ve just got to stop playing with them and start out own game.
We have sacraficed a lot to get here, we have terribly far to go. We need each other on the way. To quote a famous citizen… “Can’t we all just get along!”
AZ Matt @ 122
This would be Navajo Cemetery and Navajo Mountains in southwestern Oklahoma. Most of those ‘resting’ there are of Cherokee blood like my father’s family.
OK, I’m a newbie and my posts keep getting deleted so apparently I’m expressing an unpopular viewpoint or else somebody just doesn’t like me…But here goes anyway. I promise I won’t fight with or attack those who support the Dems in what they did. My fellow progressives are friends, not foes. But shouldn’t I speak the truth as I see it?
I am among those who feel our party has betrayed us, AGAIN. Look at the list of Dems who voted Yes for this war. Among them are newly-elected senators who campaigned for CHANGE. I actually GAVE MONEY to these people (who were not running in my state), and this is how they reward me for my trust in them? Even Jim Webb, whom I admire greatly, voted for more funding and NO requirements for withdrawal. Yes, I know he has a son over there. But he knows the war can’t continue without funding. Bush didn’t have the upper hand here; it was Congress who had the upper hand, because they control funding. By voting Yes, the Dems just made this THEIR war. Now they don’t have a leg to stand on with voters of either side. They have reduced themselves to impotent complainers who will neither support the war nor fully oppose it. Hoping to have it both ways, they have fallen into a moral-cowardice trap. They have no courage of their convictions—that’s what Rove’s boys will say. And it will be hard for many to disagree.
I can only assume some of these Yes votes originated with centrist corporate-aligned “strategists” giving, as usual, very bad advice about how to win in ‘08. It’s time for the party to give these people the royal boot and start listening to their base.
Interestingly, my red-state’s very conservative Sen. Richard Burr voted NO. He apparently has the courage to go against his party and his president and many of his constituents—unlike shrinking-violets in my party who care more about elections than either their country or the wishes of those who put them in office. They make me feel like a chump.
They didn’t have to do this. They didn’t have to pass ANY bill. If the president wanted funding for operations, they should have made HIM come to THEM with hat-in-hand and plenty of concessions. But they were scared to death Karl Rove would say they were “the party that lost the war”. Their success in ‘08 was more important to them than their conscience or the lives of our soldiers—-so they protected themselves.
Next year, Republicans will paint the Dems as weak turncoats. And it won’t be hard to make that label stick.
ccmask @ 114
This is a good question, as some have been saying that the only reason we are there is the oil. Yes, we are there for the oil, but Bush would not have been able to start this war without the casus belli being to counter terrorism and spread democracy in the Middle East.
Thus Iraq is a conflation of materialistic greed as well as some egregiously misguided ideological and power political motives (think 9/11, Israel, Bush machismo, protofascism, and executive over-reach, oil, Pentagon megalomania, all within the same thought-span if you can, and you have it right.).
Jimmy Carter was right. Iraq is the foreign policiy disaster to beat all such disasters in American History. I am deeply offended that he backed off his attack on Bush, presidential decorum be damned.
If you could invent a war from Hell, Iraq is it, more so than Vietnam, which by comparison has a kind of enviable, albeit tragic, ideological purity to it.
By the way, Glenn Greenwald has an article up about the framing debate-failure.
The whole debate we just had was centrally premised on an idea that is not merely unpersuasive, but factually false, just ridiculous on its face. That a blatant myth could be outcome-determinative in such an important debate is a depressingly commonplace indictment of our dysfunctional media and political institutions.
that’s one of the three pillars on which the ICORP of Iraq rests: securing internationally enforceable ‘agreements’ on the distribution of the spoils of the Iraqi oil fields among the dominant global energy companies HQ’d in the US and britain.
pillar two was/is the replacement of the military bases in Saudi that Osama bin Laden requested–forcefully, and undeniably, on IX/XI–be vacated. the bases are needed to extend US ‘influence’ (read: ‘miitary striking power’) into the steppes of central asia, whereby to contain the energy aspirations of the chinese and the indians…
pillar three was/is securing israel’s northern front, mainly by forcing Iraq into three, weak, warring states which will/sould be too weak by themselves to pose much threat to tel aviv…
.
Siun @ 127
OMG! 13 D’s and one I voted correctly… Hell yes a circular firing squad (aka accountability) is needed… both of our parties are supporting mad corporate robber baron policy with no regard for life and liberty at home or abroad.
Thanks, Siunshine..)
Muzzy @ 135
agreed. that looks like a biggie.
there are other possibilities sprinkled here & there in this thread, & others, if you have time to browse ;->
Bay State Librul @ 110
Ok, just reading, but gotta say this film I worked on (thanks, Ms. Marshall) speaks volumes to women & the potential for empowerment…
A League of Their Own
Eureka dear … anytime!
and Cosette – thank you for the Silber which is so right.
Cassandra – welcome aboard!
John H. Farr @ 74:
The corporatists have a lot of money, and have deployed it to their advantage. We cannot duplicate their donations one on one, but with careful targeting, we can wildly outdo them. Left blogistan has a huge population. Surely there are 10000 of us who can spare 5000 per cycle. That will enable a bunch of our candidates to run very credible races against the monied interests. So, don’t complain. Reach deep into your wallet. We can win, but only if we replace the wallets of a few rich with the wallets of many more average people.
Read about the Iraq oil legislation. It gives American oil companies control over Iraqi oil for 30 years. Bush and Cheney are oil men. It’s not rocket science. We are there for the oil. Nothing more, nothing less.
ccmask @ 130
A lot depends on how many of them have friends and/or relations serving in Iraq or elsewhere.
And there are also those in heavily-military families who have been trained not to talk about wars while they’re being fought. That’s why the growing number of dissenting ex-brass is so telling: Military personnel have it drilled into them never to publicly criticize an ongoing military operation, ever, even if you’re no longer in the military.
Folks – pausing a moment … don’t miss Howie’s two! two! two! Blue Americas today!
Eric Massa is up first at 2PM ET and then
and extra special BA – at 4PM ET we’re going to be live vlogging from Chicago with Howie, John Laesch and a gang of great folks. Don’t miss it!
albatross at 3
I would love a review of our representatives votes. I thought the votes were going to be Coleman: yes, Klobuchar: no, Ellison: no. As best I can determine (and I could be wrong but I can’t find the voting list on the websites) their actual votes were Ellison: no, Klobuchar: YES, and Coleman skipped the vote!
i’m at beginning of thread, so don’t know if anyone answered your question–
Klobuchar-yea
Coleman-not voting
Ellison-Yea on agreeing to resolution-rules vote
No on war bill
Yea on supplemental
Cassandra @ 141
There are 10 visible comments and no deleted comments using your profile.
Your most recent one appears here.
i shall begin to believe that throwing money at problems will not solve them when folks with a lot of money stop throwing it at their problems…
that said, i dont have $5000 with which to bribe my ‘representative’ to attend to the needs of the people instead of the needs of the corporations which–unfortunately, but eternally–are and will continue to be accorded the same ‘right’ as citizens, but with none of the civic responsibilities…
.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 140
Sounds like those Navajos got around everywhere! *g*
Welcome Cassandra!
Just so you know, there is another commenter with your name who goes by SnarKassandra.
Hope we hear from you often!
Another example of the bad. Although understandable…
waving to ((((((((((egregious))))))))))
Great stuff on MSNBC … Andy Card booed plus when he got an honorary degree … he was surrounded by signs calling on the Univ. to
Dis-Card”
bravo!
Hey npb, good to hear from you!
Re the good, bad, ugly of the post, I like to think that all the time we’ve invested in community building paid off this week, when unlike the other sites, we -didn’t- declare war on each other.
virginia cynic @ 41
my bold.
Wow- you hit the nail on the head, imo. These people (Cheney and Rove, especially) are dangerous in a way not seen before in American politics (Nixon was just a ripple, compared to these guys.)
tbsa @ 150
The OIL AND NOTHING BUT OIL is a tragic misreading of why we are in Iraq. If it were only so simple!
As much as the oil, we are there because of a demented and messianic drive to impose American hegemony throughout the Middle East, in concert with our regional affiliates Britain and Israel.
To think of Iraq as ONLY OIL is a disservice to the men and women who died for a misguided ideology.
Phoenix Woman @ 126
Sabotage of the US Goverment’s official diplmatic efforts worked so well for them in ‘68 that the GOP did it again in 80, setting up back channels with Iran -
while the US Government tried to free the US hostages the GOP now pretend to care so much about.
A lot of American soldiers have died as a result of Iraq. They perished not for Democracy, but for oil. And their families here in the states are being price gouged for gasoline, diesel and home heating oil. And think about all the other things made from oil like plastic containers, etc. that have, and will continue to soar in price. The ripple effects of this Republican war and the complicity of my Democratic Party in this rip-off are astounding.
Cassandra @ 141
can’t begin to tell you what might happened to your posts, but your suspicions don’t fit the way FDL “works”. Maybe the natural lag time tw’ sending in your comment, and the actual location where it ends up at when it’s posted, might have caused confusion.
moderators can do a better job than i in describing some other possibilities that slow down posting (e.g., excessive length, high number of links or quotes, other things that tend to create undue strain on the servers….)
keep trying! no one is turned away just because of their viewpoint, as long as they are reasonably polite & respectful of other posters. ;->
Amy Goodman’s interview with General Batiste..really worth the listen!
“The Bush administration got this war really wrong” “Wrong in March 2003, Wrong today in May 2007″
Any administration “should exhaust all political, diplomatic, economic means before you commit our military in this kind (Iraq) of endeavor”
http://www.democracynow.org/ar…..25/1456242
The reason for the condemnation of many Dems who voted no was that they had previously voted yes on procedural rules that guaranteed that the bill would pass.
Only a few of the “no” voters can legitimately claim innocence: we know who they are because they condemned the sellout before it was final. Those who participated in the sellout and then voted no, like Nancy Pelosi, are as responsible for it as if they had voted yes. Those like Jane Harman, Hillary Clinton, and Barack Obama, who dithered until the very last minute before deciding to vote no, also collaborated.
Russ Feingold, who saw this thing coming and opposed it all the way, is one of the few good guys.
Wow, Arthur Silber, mindreader. I guess then that when Ted Kennedy, Paul Wellstone and a bunch of other Democratic Senators voted against Bush’s original Iraq war resolution in 2002, in the face of Bush’s 70% approval ratings, then they were really in favor of the war after all.
This is a milder form of what I’ve been talking about. It’s merely silly, but its propagators have been fanning the flames of the rage that causes even people who agree to turn on each other reflexively and viciously and unthinkingly.
Siun @ 133
And if that fails…Bring the fire closer.
This goes beyond ideology…It is now a pitched battle between those of us with a minimum of two brain cells to rub together and the slavishly, willfully stupid (up to and including the current American executive branch) who wish the worst-case scenario to occur in order to reaffirm their wrongheadedness, or to see the world burn while their wallet fills.
Deguello.
Once those oil papers are drawn up, then I guess the White House has officially merged with Exxon/Mobil.
ccmask @ 171
Actually that merger took place 1/20/2001
RBG @ 153
Thanks, RBG. I certainly haven’t been deleting anybody’s comments; I’ve been too busy reading, responding, and attempting to fix/eat lunch to do that.
If anyone isn’t seeing their posts, try refreshing. (Especially if you’re using Firefox — one of FF’s few glitches is that the recent ones have issues with refreshing.)
dakine01 @ 172
Yeah, that’s true. Oy vey.
The Democrats need to understand that for what they are or are not doing, a price will be exacted. Do not misunderstand this. It’s about job security. Your job security.
Now, this could be scandalous, considering how these cases were all used in the media….Lee’s credibility being called into question, see link below the quote:
“Lee, the retired director of the Connecticut State Forensics Science Laboratory, has conducted investigations for defense attorneys and prosecutors.
His resume is a who’s who of celebrity cases, including Simpson, William Kennedy Smith, Kobe Bryant, JonBenet Ramsey, Scott Peterson, Chandra Levy, Michael Skakel, Vincent Foster and the Branch Davidian compound fire. He conducted a crime-scene investigation in Taipei after the election-eve shooting of Taiwan President Chen Shui-bian.”
http://www.pr-inside.com/renow…..135283.htm
I’ve been treating my party with kid-gloves. That’s over. Kiddo gloves now.
Phoenix Woman @ 169
“bunch”?
“The Democrats not on the ballot split almost evenly, with 19 supporting the war resolution and 17 opposing it. Among those facing the voters, 10 voted for the resolution while only four opposed it. And of those four, only one — Sen. Paul Wellstone of Minnesota, who died in a plane crash a few weeks after the resolution vote — was in a seriously competitive race…”
i think a little reflexive rage is appropriate here. illegal wars should be the new “third rail”..
LS @ 118
IIRC estimates of oil reserves of 18(plus) Trillions $$$$s in Iraq. It is the bottom line at the end of the day. Dwarfs spreading Democracy to the Islamic world (if that is possible anymore).
Democrats: you’re taking it to the limit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWz9X3gVaqg
LS @ 60
But I guess it’s just too much fun to keep attacking even people one agrees with.
That’s what’s depressing. I’ve had to bail from a couple of lists I was on recently because the once-rational people on them were starting to sound like actors in a remake of Lord of the Flies, and I really had no desire to be Simon. The upshot is that it’s freed up a few hours of my day.
Arnie @ 179
It was never possible. Spreading democracy at the point of a rifle is a ludicrous idea on its face.
Phoenix Woman @ 169
Are you the Judean People’s Front?
Spreading democracy at the point of a rifle is a ludicrous idea on its face.
What, you mean Mayor Giuilian’s license to NYPD was a failure?
I can’t believe I wrote “voted know” in #168: brain fart — they voted no, and know that it makes no difference.
[Fixed by mod]
spinoza @ 184
Giuliani is a failure, period.
Phoenix Woman @ 181
I have definitely noticed that lately over at Big Orange, there is so much infighting in general in the comments, and it is hard to read through them in order to get back to whatever the topic is. I do love their site though. Maybe it is just that there is so much tension and frustration in the country. I think we have to try to stay centered if possible, and that is really hard to do sometimes.
phoenix woman:
So we’ve got to support these people who are opposed to ending the war because if we don’t we’ll only help elect people who are opposed to ending the war.
PW – it is not fun.
It is horrifying that our country continues to do what we are doing in Iraq. When the “opposition” party refuse to oppose (and yes, there were a small number who stood up)the daily war crime of this occupation, that’s not fun. And calling them on it … esp for many who are seeing this kind of sellout for the first time, is not fun. For many it’s heartbreaking. For those of us who’ve seen it before it also is not fun … but anger and action are better than hiding our eyes.
Howie has Eric Massa upstairs
AAbshier @ 13
We were fed up with Clinton and Obama, not only because they waited until the bill had enough votes to pass to vote, but because they remained silent about their intentions until they voted, thus having no influence on others whatsoever. It was cowardly, and appeared calculating, plain and simple.
More on Davis Mac-Iyalla’s tour–the one I wrote about in Some Thoughts on Courage.
(Click)
I’d like to figure out a way to do a better job of spotlighting this and spreading the word so that people who are interested could get a chance to see him. And so that anyone who wants to support his work financially can find out how to do so.
Phoenix Woman @ 136
We’ve got a chapter in our book called: Ila Borders: You Can’t Keep a Good Women Down
(Baseball’s Good Guys, with one gal)
Progressive/liberals in the USofA have only one ‘choice’–which, by definition, is no choice at all: we may vote Democrat, in the full and certain knowledge that, at the first opportunity, those whom we helped to elect to national public office will inevitably turn around and, without the slightest compunction, shit on our heads…
or we can stay home and watch as those people for whom we might have voted–and who would inevitaqbly betray us–either get elected without us or get defeated by the minions of the Far Right (’our’ wing being, as gor vidal noted, only the Right Wing of the party of property).
that is just about all, folks…the propaganda attack agains the left/progressive/liberal agenda has been the most successful of its kind in history, and will NOT be reversed, at least not in the lifetimes of anyone now commenting on this thread…
so all that’s left, unfortunately, is rage, fury, and anger…
might as well enjoy ‘em…
./
xargaw at 191:
SING OUT LOUISE!!!!
travy @ 178
Actually, nearly half the Democrats in the Senate at the time — 22 of the 23 “no” votes — voted against Bush’s war. (Kennedy has said several times that his “no” vote on this was the best vote in his life.)
ifthethunderdontgetya @ 183
Heh! No, I’m the People’s Front of Judea!
I can’t click on the link right now — which one was the one with the suicide squad?
EvilDrPuma @ 182
The attack on Iraq was never really about democracy, which was and is just the pretext. The real objective is power hegemony over the whole region, including establishing Israel’s pre-eminence over the Palestinian region, as spearheaded by the neocons.
Oil is part of the equation, and dollar-wise, it may be the most visible. But it is so short-sighted to think that that’s all.
I don’t get it. For years this site has been among the most outspoken in attacking the ideological delusions of the neo-cons, and now all of sudden the only thing is oil, and nobody seems to pay any attention to the neocons, who in fact are still deeply entrenched and very much in the plans to attack Iran.
So long as we choose to be obsessed by oil and only oil, we are taking our eyes off the ball as to what is happening to the whole region. This is a massive power play and oil is one term in the equation. We should be careful not to get it backwards, since there is nothing better for the neocons to operate in stealth from the bowels of the think tanks.
As to Exxon-Mobile taking over, well, we can all start to help by commuting on bikes. We collectively, are co-sponsors of the oil takeover in Iraq.
Siun @ 189
I’m with you. They (our opposition)want us to be divided so they can continue to conquer. Just because I’m angry and frustrated as hell at my representatives and express it, does not mean that I’m bailing from my side of the aisle, and they (the Repubs and especially the neocons) better realize that we are greater in number than they are, we will all stick together, and we will take whatever action necessary to stop the destruction of our country as we know it. We will stop this war and we will stop the war mongerers and the war profiteers – I believe that.
Phoenix Woman @ 181
this is utter shite. while you and the rest of the capitulators sit around and get meta with political strategies and proper responses, iraq and its people burn.
if not iraq, what could possibly be terrible enough for you to toss political expediency and politeness overboard in the cause of standing up for what’s right?
i don’t mean to pick on you, but have you no sense of context here?
They’re the ones who are short-sighted. It was about oil. Bolstering Israel would be a dividend, but it was about oil.
The fact that they’ve totally fucked up doesn’t change this very simple and obvious fact.
Who’s Dick Cheney’s Daddy?
That’s right.
Eureka Springs @ 120
In short, the way I see it US in Iraq is nothing less than a robbery of oil and a massacre of its people. When this takes place and rights like habeas corpus are thrown aside like a dixie cup and our blood and treasure are used against our constitution and all of humanity then I don’t care what party or religion one abuses to justify such madness.. Anyone in any party who fights against this with every fiber of their being has my respect and support. As for my party if the center and right of it wins with capitulation and approval of mass murder and mass theft…well then, I have to reconsider everything… I simply have to. Some things are far more important than going along with the group/party. I want to earn our way of life not kill and steal for it. I want to embrace and expand our constitution…not curse it and shread it.
To this day I cannot bear the view in photographs of the real Vietnam Memorial with its names of stopped lives (not that GOP/neocon inspired piece of mythological drivel). In defference to those who have lost their lives honourably in the country’s battles, I am choosing NOT to observe the day of memorial until such time that the country is not engaged in war crimes, crimes against humanity, crimes against Iraq, crimes against Iraqis, men, women, and children, organized state terrorism to steal natural resources of the Iraqis and browbeat the population into submission to fascist american will. Those military dying in this occupation are NOT HEROS and I refuse to acknowledge them as anything other than what they ARE by their actions. That was why the breach of silence at Bitbutrg was a travesty by the first Fascist American President R. Reagan honouring his ilk. Did anyone remember to drive a wooden stake through his heart so he doesn’t repeat like a bad B movie? or put him in the coffin face down to face where he was going? It is the lies that destroy, it is lies that feed evil, it is lies that have eviscerated the constitution. The only way to save what is valuable, is to stop the lies, and that can hurt.
Thanks, PW, for your adult statement.
The Dems do not have the numbers to override a veto or to succeed at impeachment.
No rhetoric, no breath-holding, no ranting, no foot-stamping can change the numbers.
Dems do have the numbers to conduct investigations and oversight in congressional committees. They must compile the record documenting the wrong-doing of this vile administration.
The rest is theater and I wish Dems did it better.
Siun @ 189
Who said I was calling for “hiding our eyes”?
I’m calling for not attacking people who vote the way we want them to vote, or with whom we agree on the badness of the supplemental’s passage. And that’s what’s been happening, over and over and over again.
If this were just the standard circular firing squad we tend to engage in (as Will Rogers said: “I don’t belong to any organized political party. I’m a Democrat.”), that’d be one thing. But it’s such a heated, mind-killing rage that it’s burned into people’s brains.
No guts-no glory. That goes for all of us.
We try to predict the future. Will Democratic office holders ever do what they were elected to do? Is that the light at the end of the tunnel or more tunnel? Tough call.
Some people think we need new paths. Don’t laugh. Try utopian thinking at http://www.egalite.com
We need a non-hierarchical third party and we need to do it on the internet. I have no idea how a few hundred thousand people can hold a meaningful conversation, but that is where we begin. These comments are a start, but unwieldy. We might consider eliminating identities on posts to eliminate ego trips and we might consider eliminating quotes from former posts with the idea that everyone participating has read what went before. We need to condense arguments
dmac @ 153
i’m at beginning of thread, so don’t know if anyone answered your question–
Klobuchar-yea
Coleman-not voting
Ellison-Yea on agreeing to resolution-rules vote
No on war bill
Yea on supplemental
Hey, thanks for following up. I can’t believe even ELLISON voted for this thing! Argh!!
And Coleman SKIPPED it!? What a friggin’ weasel!
So I should roll over and not express my absolute disgust and anger?
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 194
A pessimistic outcome arrived at from a false dilemma is worse than no outcome at all.
dreamcatcher @ 198
Oil fuels ideology as well as combustion engines.
And of course, PNAC and its associated partners in malicious stoogery treat oil and its control as an important (but by no means singular) factor in their plans.
The problematic aspect of ascribing and digesting their other motivations (for progressives and genuine thinkers) is that all of the stark lessons of history have been discarded by a ‘faith’- based cabal who wishes to superimpose their dreams over reality…It leaves one speechless, at times.
Ed Kunin @ 204
I worry that a third party right now would hand the Repubs the election in 08. However, the idea of something like an “internet platform lobby” might be a thought to cohesively pressure the politicians into doing the right thing.
with all due respect: what part of the dilemma is ‘false’?
LnL @ 202
There you go. The Iraq bill that mattered was the one that Bush vetoed, IMO
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 210
With returned due respect…You offer only one choice.
There are several…Ranging from ‘effortless’ to unpleasant, and some even more tenuous in their grasp on reality than the current administration’s stakehold in an empire of lies.
What is required is the collective will to actualize them.
All that is inevitable is that there will be an outcome.
Uhmmmm. ThE ONLY reason the US gives a crap about control in the ME is what? Anyone? OIL! No matter how you slice it, Iraq was, and is, ONLY about OIL and strategic positioning for OIL in the surrounding countries. It IS the oil and the oil companies and nothing but.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 177
there’ya go ;->
the 1st writer i fell in love with was Mari Sandoz, reading “Crazy Horse” (way back in jr. high sch).
I don’t recall Crazy Horse being terribly shy…
i know. wrong tribe. but proud guy worthy of great respect. eh?
Looking forward to 2008 convention time?
-GSD
And again–
SING OUT LOUISE!!!!
Benchmark #1, as described by Ann Wright:
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/052607Z.shtml
this is what i’d term “rage”:
“[John] Brown and the free state settlers were optimistic that they could bring Kansas into the union as a slavery-free state. But in late 1855 and early 1856 it was increasingly clear to Brown that pro-slavery forces were willing to violate the rule of law in order to force Kansas to become a slave state. Brown believed that terrorism, fraud, and eventually deadly attacks became the obvious agenda of the pro-slavery supporters, then known as “Border Ruffians.” After the winter snows thawed in 1856, the pro-slavery activists began a campaign to seize Kansas on their own terms. Brown was particularly affected by the Sacking of Lawrence in May 1856, in which a sheriff-led posse destroyed newspaper offices and a hotel. Only one man was killed, and it was a Border Ruffian. Preston Brooks’s brutal caning of anti-slavery Senator Charles Sumner also fueled Brown’s anger. These violent acts were accompanied by celebrations in the pro-slavery press, with writers such as B. F. Stringfellow of the Squatter Sovereign proclaiming that pro-slavery forces “are determined to repel this Northern invasion, and make Kansas a Slave State; though our rivers should be covered with the blood of their victims, and the carcasses of the Abolitionists should be so numerous in the territory as to breed disease and sickness, we will not be deterred from our purpose”. Brown was outraged by both the violence of the pro-slavery forces, and also by what he saw as a weak and cowardly response by the antislavery partisans and the Free State settlers, who he described as “cowards, or worse”…”
I’m also furious at the Dems. In fact, to the point of going back to my Independent status.In Washington state our new improved primary requires you to list as Rep. or Dem. or you can’t vote.
So,maybe it’s time to vote with my feet.
I hope this rage is a natural release that will allow an new look at our nation’s situation.Waiting out Bushco’s days while they’re working overtime to pillage and plunder before they fade into the corporate fog,isn’t an option. I’m hoping that after we get all the vitriol out,we can apologize for our bad words and work together.
When I was taking care of very young children we all agreed on 3 rules.And they still apply.
We are all on the same team.
Friends don’t leave friends crying.
If the situation is too big for a kid to handle -get a grownup.
Well, the situation is BIG, and we’re the grownups. Let’s pull together. IMPEACH
dreamcatcher @ 198
Another example of how complacent the so called “liberal” bloggers and the MSM are is the minimal amount that has been written or aired about the upcoming Rosen/Weismann espionage trial. (one time Chris Matthews whispered that the trial had been delayed again on his program) This is where many liberals the right (wrong) wing and the MSM merge. These critical issues generally remain “off limits”
I go to Forward, Jewish Telegraphic Agency and to Justin Raimandos’ anti-war.com website to get updates.
http://www.amconmag.com/2007/2…..ticle.html
T
dreamcatcher @ 198
Glenn Greenwald, Justin Raimondo, and others with readership in the millions have pointed out that the old political spectrum of left/right, (D)/(R) has been superseded by a division between neo-con war party, wihich has substantial influence in both major parties — and their opponents, both within the parties and of course, out in the population, which loathes the neo-cons more the more they are known.
A bit of a struggle to get such a point assimilated or understood here.
As you point out, this site has done great work covering all the damage the neo-cons have done to our country, but …
… with Clinton and Obama insisting on keeping the option of nuclear first strike on a country that does not threaten the USA, the (D) loyalist blogosphere is sensing trouble keeping the indians on the reservation.
therefore, the stubborn clinging to the old, tribal, my party right or wrong at all costs paradigm.
dreamcatcher @ 163
To politely disagree: To think of Iraq as ONLY OIL is a service to the men and women who died for a lie. Only truth brings honour for their sacrifice.
Pat Lang and Lawrence Wilkerson Share Nightmare Encounters with Feith, Wolfowitz and Tenet.
http://www.thewashingtonnote.c…..002147.php
Let us hope and pray that the long awaited completion of Phase II of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence actually holds the creators and pushers of false pre-war intelligence Accountable. This is the very least that our elected(some selected) officials can do for the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi people and American soldiers who have died and been injured in this war of choice.
Flynt Leverett “The New Axis of Oil”
http://www.newamerica.net/publ…..xis_of_oil
LnL @ 202
In many cases, it probably isn’t theater. It may well be honestly held, albeit misguided, belief.
I keep going back to a conversation LBJ had with McGeorge Bundy about Vietnam back in 1964. (A transcript can be found here.) Johnson expressed grave doubts about being in Vietnam, but in the end told himself and Bundy that they had to be there because otherwise the Communists would be invading the US — and remember, this was only a few years after Stalin’s death, as the details of his hideous r駩me were coming to light in the West. (And let’s not even get into what Mao did.) Suffice to say that when people in America in 1964 thought of Communism, they didn’t think of nice friendly places like Sweden (which was actually Socialist, not Communist, but you get the point).
If somebody as smart and otherwise well-informed as LBJ could honestly believe something like that, is it any surprise that anyone might think — especially with the media Wurlitzer’s constant repeatings thereof — that Vietnam vets were routinely spat upon, or that ending the Vietnam War led to Reagan’s election?
Or that voting against the supplemental means that troops will be hurt in the field?
travy @ 218
Thanks for quoting that. That was completely new to me, and the first thing I thought of was the similarity between Brown and the “premature antifascists” in Spain during the 1930’s.
peterboy gets it exactly right. To revive my poker metaphor, Congressional Dems held a strong winning hand that they bizarrely insisted on folding.
Glenn Greenwald is very good today on one aspect of how they painted themselves into a corner by not only not challenging, but repeatedly embracing, the Repub talking point that forcing a change in strategy by de-funding — exactly as the Founders intended! — is equivalent to not supporting troops in harm’s way. As if this would place troops in the position of running out of food, fuel, ammo, or other supplies/equipment essential to their safety and ability to do their jobs. This is pure, false, wingnut propaganda, which the Dems let dictate their options while making no feeblest attempt to challenge its preposterousness. And of course media abdicated their Fourth Estate duty to fact-check and expose this nonsense. In other words, all of our recent discourse, Congressional debate, and Congressional-WH “negotiations” have been founded on and driven by a blatant falsehood. How can we expect outcomes other than disastrous when our leaders and media allow such a situation?
And yes, that’s utter cowardice on the Dem leadership’s part. That a majority (of Dems) voted no when it no longer mattered, after having ceded the battle that did matter, is just more salt in the wound. The media should do their jobs anyway, but there’d be a much better chance they would if Dems showed some spine and challenged the warmongers’ lies and nonsense — but they refuse to do so.
But perhaps most maddening of all, Dems could and should have easily avoided the “defunding-war=not-supporting-troops” trap by turning it right around on Bush: “WE PASSED the funding Bush requested. He vetoed it. If not funding the war is not supporting the troops, it’s Bush that’s not supporting them. We passed the funding. He denied it.” Repeat unanimously on-message non-stop.
Seriously, what’s hard about this? It seems so obvious. Where’s the downside? This is the position and desire of strong majorities of the public.
The Communists (ie. the Russians) were in no more of a position to invade the U.S. than Saddam Hussein was capable of nuking London in a half an hour’s time — whcih we were solemnly told was indeed the case. The Soviet Union never recorvered from WWI and barely survived WWII. But myths die hard when you need external enemies in order to justify your own crimes.
EvilDrPuma @ 182
Is the “S” button on the comment box for Snark? If so, I’ll use it next time for “Dwarfs … anymore.” (as a given reason). Sorry for the oops.
Deja Fucking Vu!
With yellow cake all over the “cakewalk in Iraq” zealots faces they contnue to march towards a confrontation with Iran!
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/….._0524.html
These zealots Reuel Marc Gerecht, Woolsey, Ledeen, Cheney, Bolton, Perle etc. have been all over the MSM the last four years repeating unsubstantiated claims about Iran. Most of these claims have gone unchallenged by the media. (with the exception of Chris Matthews)
GSD @ 216
Yea, and fences with razor wire tops designated as free speech zones…
Yellow bellied turned Yellow cake crazies (Kristol and Kagan) tickled pink about the war funding vote. The blood running in the rivers in Iraq does not scare these guys, as long as they are sending someone else’s children to fight in their wars.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/…..7aqclu.asp
LnL @ 203
Can we stop saying this already? This doesn’t enter into it, and I find personally that every time I hear it I get all enraged again, because it’s thinking like that that helped the Dems make such a disastrous move in the first place. If Bush kept vetoing things, that would help us, even if an override can’t be. If you want to talk numbers, the important ones are whether or not the bill can get passed in the first place, not whether or not Bush can sustain a veto.
Phoenix Woman @ 196
IIRC Gulf War had the country’s population at 50/50. The Democrats reflected the division of opinion faithfully. It was the Republicans who failed to represent their constintuancies and marched, lockstep that would do proud any Nazi SS stormtroupers to the beck and call of their furhermeister George HW to reign in their errant dictator friend.
Way late in the thread here–pass #210 already–yet would only point out that until the money train of tax money,deficit-spend money,borrowed money and wishful/fantasy money gets slowed down or even needfully derailed WashDC will only remain or become more unresponsive,unrepentant and unlistening. K Street is all about the money. American militarism is all about the money. The pathetic current states of being for American education,healthcare risk coverage,drug prices and pensions/retirements jeopardy is about the money. The DC DEMS are as guilty as the GOPer’s regarding money politics,revolving door WashDC government/K Street careerism–factor in the Pentagon/arms biz revolving door trails,the bureaucratic career switch-hitter well worn pathways then too.
Until the money politics are fully curbed,until the rot and corruption of the US tax “system” is taken out,until WashDC is forced to obey and abide fiscal realism,fiscal truth and fiscal ethics/morality there will be more out of control spend-a-thons for connected/corrupt special interests,warmaking,the military/armaments industry and rampant militarism that incredibly incestuous relationship promotes.
The WashDC money “train” must be brought under control first and only then can the political rot and decay,the “insider” payola and fiscal pillage,plunder and piracy ever be consrained.
It should be plainly evident for anyone to see at this point that until that happens it will be pointless to wail or gnash teeth over why WashDC is so unresponsive/derisive to better governance,more effective results and moral/ethical conduct–being/doing wrong because being/doing right is not nearly as profitable.
Get the money train under control and the corporatists will slither off to other easy pickings and payouts. The fiscal bloat that infects WashDC is a very real threat to all Americans whether retired,soldiers,working,going to school,for children, for those about to be born or yet to come.
Dreamcatcher @ 198
Oil is the “lubricant” that pays for and fulfills the other two legs of the equation. Without the Oil neither hegemony or A*P*AC entanglement are going to be seriously advanced against oposition. Without Oil Iraq would have been as safe as Darfur from attention. That was my whole point, should have made it more clear, me bad.
Arnie @ 237
Yes, that was my point too. You can’t look at Iraq simply through the lens of oil. “Shock and awe” was a naked display of power to intimidate the whole world, Russia and China included.
Did it succeed?
Obviously not. We are now revealed as being a powerful yet pitiful giant with a whining so-called leader of the so-called free world, who can’t finish a fight he started. To my mind, that loss of world prestige and leadership outweighs any material dollar gains in oil. You can’t put a price tag on that.
Looking at it this way, we are big losers in Iraq, oil grab notwithstanding. That is my whole point. If we see Bush as “winning” because he has taken over the oil concession, well that is a pity, but that is not as bad as what he has done to the country’s claim to the higher moral ground.
Dreamcatcher @ 238
Would -
“What profit is there in gaining the world and loosing ones soul”
work?
:-/
OK our fearless Democratic legislators folded a better hand than the decider’s. Is there any action we can take or is our only option to bitch as we go down the tube hoping, all the while, for the best?
smitty @ 18
Did you by any chance see Bill Moyers’ Journal last night on PBS? The entire show was on Margarite Hong ? [my mind is blanking] and the work she does with veterans: utilizing writing to help them deal with PTSD and other ills. It was amazing. Even though she has worked mainly with Vietnam vets, she’s helped some Iraq War ones too. Touching, and prompting all the more resolve to end this travesty.
Maxine Hong Kingston
Arnie @ 239
Something like that.
Luke 9:25
RBG @ 154 said:
“There are 10 visible comments and no deleted comments using your profile.”
My profile?
Now I feel like an idiot!
How do I locate that?
Sorry guys. I tried to find some of my comments but couldn’t. I would have sworn they were gone. Apparently I don’t understand how your site works. Guess I’m a little slow!
Thanks for the welcome, Siun and egregious and Adie! And yes, I know about sweet li’l Snarkassandra.
Adie @ 166 said:
“no one is turned away just because of their viewpoint, as long as they are reasonably polite & respectful of other posters. ;-> “
Yay! I’m so glad to hear that.
(And thanks PW for confirming.)
Now, somebody, please straighten me out because apparently I’m your village idiot. How do I find my profile and comments?
Hi Cassandra-
Your “profile” is the information you entered when you first submitted a comment, including your screen name and email address. As one of FDL’s site administrators, I can see that information with each of your comments.
I searched comments based on your email address and found 10 comments visible on various threads. I believe your first comment was on March 31st and appears here.
If you are not able to see that comment, or the one I linked earlier today, please let me know what browser and internet security software you use.
Thanks.
keith oberman said it just fine for me. morals, either you have them or you don’t. you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make em drink. pragmatic politic is what it is wrong is never right…we want peace now it is not negotiable their blood is on our hands as sure as if we pulled the trigger it is not about winning folks it is about doing the right things murder has never been right
morals…either you have them or you don’t
if you do you are stronger… you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make them drink
we want peace now we have been saying it for 40 years and marching and all what part of no more war do you not understand. The run up to the war was a con we�Americans�have prided ourselves not to be the aggressor� champions of the down trodden premptive�strike�is�being the�aggressor were in their house now�better tread really carefully they are vengeful and this is bringing wrath on us you sent out the wrong message
Looks like this was a very productive post and discussion.
Thanks, PW!
ccmask @ 114
The people paying for stealing the oil and the people receiving the stolen oil are two entirely different groups.
Phoenix Woman @ 226
Dear PW,
I think you are approaching this, as is the Democratic majority, from the wrong perspective.
So, the Democrats wouldn’t be able to override a promised presidential veto. So what? Let the little snot nosed Shrub veto the very funds he says he desperately needs. Then let the Dems send up progressively more restrictive bills or, better yet, say, “OK, we sent you a bill, you vetoed the bill, you get NO funds. Start the withdrawal! NOW!”
As Glen Greenwald points out ever so cogently, defunding the OCCUPATION does NOT mean that the troops would be left naked, unarmed and unfed in the field. If this IS the case, point pointedly at the ‘War President’ and say in no uncertain terms, “You, sir, are a dolt and a failure. You have failed the nation, the Constitution AND the troops.”
If you say you support the troops, and mean it, the ONLY way to support them is to get them the hell out of this insane occupation AS SOON AS POSSIBLE! The way this is done, pure and simple, is to defund the occupation, one way or another. As is, this occupation is just as much the fault of the Democrats as it has been up to now of the Republicans!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 180
Please excuse a brief comment from an Aussie in China: All wars will cease when men refuse to fight.
I must concur with your principled and unwavering stand here Oklahoma k.
RBG @ 245
Yes, I see them from your links. But for some reason, sometimes I don’t. I think what’s happening is some glitch between the time a new comment first appears in the thread (highlighted), and the next time I refresh. It’s there and then it’s gone. And then I guess it comes back. I use MS Internet Explorer and AVG.
Um….so how do I do a search based on my email address? Is there an easy way for me to locate all my comments?
Thanks RBG!
Love,
Cassandra The Idiot
Hi Cassandra-
I’m not aware of any way that a commenter can search for their previous comments based on their email address. You can Goggle search using your name and Firedoglake, but my guess is that you will get a raft of false leads that way.
I’m also not familiar with AVG. My suggestion would be that you include firedoglake.com as a trusted site within that software and see if it seems to clear up the issue. If not, I’m at a loss for what to tell you.
A further note…
For those who really care, at all, about our troops, I highly suggest the following two sites: Is Our Peace Activists Learning? http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/22962
Hit Those Democratic Betrayers on HR 2206 Where They Live http://www.opednews.com/articl…..cratic.htm
Otherwise, just STFU, put on your “I heart Dems” T-shirts and march in lockstep to the polls to reenshrine those miserable curs who have betrayed us ALL time and time again! Don’t kevtch, DO.