I wholeheartedly agree with Joan Walsh, I love Mike Tomasky and am very happy he is doing great work at the Guardian but I don't buy this:
If the celebrated surge hasn't shown results by September, public opinion will harden even more; people will start demanding timelines and Bush will be in a corner.
Or, more likely, public opinion will harden against the party in the majority who will do nothing meaningful to stop the war. Bush is already in a corner. If people like Steny Hoyer are doing back room deals with Republicans and undermining the ability of party leadership to do anything concrete, let's hear about it.
This whole deal smells like cowardice and I'm sure that Dick Cheney Democrat Rahm Emanuel — the man who quite nearly snatched defeat from the jaws of victory with his "don't mention the war" leadership of the DCCC — considers this a triumph but we have not been living under GOP hegemony so long that everyone's bullshit detectors have gone on the fritz. Rahm may be foolish enough to think that toothless benchmarks for the Iraqi government that Bush is free to ignore constitutes a righteous shitkicking but the rest of us know that even the best face they can put on this particular cave smacks of political opportunism. Have the Democrats so rigorously internalized the notion that the extremely unpopular GOP is better at PR and will be able to capitalize on it when the Democrats do exactly what the country elected them to do that they are struck with paralysis?
Surely they must realize that this plays into the hand of every stereotype the GOP uses to disempower and castigate the Democrats. That they prove themselves to be moral relativists and craven political opportunists who really don't care about the troops, because if they did they'd defund the war. That's the argument the GOP is making and it sounds damned persuasive to me. Think of how it must play to those who are preconditioned by a steady diet of Rush Limbaugh and wingnut talk radio.
The main reason to battle with Bush to stop this war is because it's the right thing to do. But even if you're arguing the optics of PR, the only ones who stand to grow more unpopular as a result of this vote are the Democrats. And I just do not see how that is a good thing. Do they think anyone is fooled by this bullshit?
The rule for the supplemental would also require lawmakers to debate legislation sponsored by Rep. Ellen Tauscher (D-Calif.) rescinding congressional authorization for the war.
Tauscher is a Blue Dog offering up a bucket of lukewarm spit in order to give people "see you in September" cover for voting for this bill. One would have to have a serious case of Capitol Hill dementia to think anyone would take her or anything she does as a serious attempt at anything but careerism and ass-covering spin.
I think Keith Olbermann in the blistering, must-see clip above represents how most folks will be feeling When Septermber Comes. No more or less disgusted with either Bush or his ego driven war, but pretty fed up with those sitting there staring at their political calculators trying to figure out how to make themselves look good while more bullets fly and the body bags fill up.
I'm sorry but when I hear people hear like Fred Yang making outrageously cynical arguments like this it just makes me want to throw up a bit:
"Obviously it's a good move," said Democratic pollster Fred Yang. "It gives President Bush and Republicans one less thing to shoot at" during the upcoming recess week.
Do people like this who think they're qualified to weigh in on the value of PR bother to listen to themselves? Even if you're that completely craven, don't say it in public and please don't make that argument in the press. How very stupid.
(Anyone having trouble viewing the YouTube above can also go to Crooks & Liars and find it in WMV and RealPlayer. You definitely do not want to miss it.)



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ZED???
zed
So what is the name of your act?
The Democrats.
Hi Jane, had to get the zed out of the way.
I hope you’re doing well.
Nail all the bastards who capitulate to wall. Now back to studying.
Mary McCurnin @ 3
That was good.
So, will there be a roll call on the ‘rule’ vote? Does anyone know?
It’s as if the Democrats, in all their calculation, don’t realize that thousands of people will die or suffer a lifetime of physical/mental trauma because of their inaction.
I wrote my congressional peeps an email. Have you?
KO hits it dead on.
Wake Me Up When September Ends:
Summer has come and passed
The innocent can never last
wake me up when september ends
like my fathers come to pass
seven years has gone so fast
wake me up when september ends
here comes the rain again
falling from the stars
drenched in my pain again
becoming who we are
as my memory rests
but never forgets what I lost
wake me up when september ends
(Green Day)
My displeasure with the cave-in on the Iraq War funding issue almost, I said, ‘almost’, defies description. I will be taking those in my party responsible to task. And I will particularly focus on certain Democratic presidential front-runners who continue to triangulate.
I am fast approaching the fed-up threshold with the so called leaders of my Democratic Party.
How about we sit on our fucking checkbooks ’till September too???
Well done on Hartman, Jane.
Do you think our anger is doing any good. Can we rachet it up more?
Just had lunch here in DC with Tim Tagaris & our own Matt Browner-Hamlin from the Dodd campaign. They did a great job getting the Dodd video up yesterday, it really left the rest of the 08’s no cover. Good for Dodd, it was a very smart thing to do.
It looks like things are changing here minute by minute. They said that we’re in weird parlimentary territory where in order to limit debate they’re just pulling procedure out of their asses, even the Senate parlimentarian doesn’t quite know what’s going on.
We were laughing about Hillary and Obama standing at the back of the Senate waiting for the other to vote and seeing who blinks first. I think they both underestimated how angry people would be about this, and everyone who thought they could get away with calling it a “victory” was too cute by half.
Olbermann amazes me. And on top of that, he likes baseball too.
Bush already took a shot at the Dems today, for fuck’s sake.
I’ve never understood this bullshit about the military and Republicans withholding judgment until September. Even if they do, and subsequently decide to be against the war, the Dems will make no political hay by claiming to have staked out that territory first.
What a fucking drag.
“By voting for this bill, members of both parties can show our troops and the Iraqis and the enemy that our country will support our service men and women in harm’s way,” Bush said in a Rose Garden news conference.
Pure spin. The ‘troops’ don’t make policy as that statement suggests
I like Dodd.
Since the Dems bailed on Iraq, Bush/Cheney know an invasion of Iran will get the same lip service from the loyal opposition. Bombs away.
Jane writes:
Trying to put perfume on a bucket of sh*t does nothing but mean you still have a bucket of nasty smelling sh*t.
Hillary and Obama? Someone threw my switch.
The Speaker’s hometown rag.
Biggus Diggus @ 7
Bingo! They treat this like a political problem, not a human problem. I’ve been hearing from several of my Dem pals today — all disgusted and not seeing a whole lot of reason to vote after this. I’ll still vote, but it feels like an empty gesture.
I called my Rep – Howard Berman and sent him a note urging him to vote no on the supplemental.
I am not hopeful, given his history.
Simple Political Advice for our Democratic Party:
If the GOP supports it, it’s probably not a good idea.
If the political consultants also supports it, you’re doing something wrong.
And if Bush is happy about it, you’ve F*cked up.
If the D party expects a happy summer of fundraising….they’re going to be very very surprised come September.
Checks go to winners, not losers.
I am not pleased with the Speaker.
ThatSinger @ 11
I donated to John Edwards last week (and will receive a t-shirt). Other than that no one gets any of my money. Except, maybe Dodd, if he pulls a rabbit out of his hat.
If he does, he will be an instant contender.
Hi Jane!
They dont even refer them as men, they call them “boots on the ground”
If you want no change in Middle East policy in 2009, vote Hillary.
What polls are the Democrats looking at that makes them fear Bush so? Why do they fear him speaking out against them on Memorial Day?
It can only help them.
Poll after poll proves that when Bush opens his mouth, his numbers tank. It’s Social Security-palooza all over again, but now about the occupation, people. Why do they fear Bush — more than they fear the righteous fury of Americans who elected them to do ONE THING?
I hope my Congresswoman enjoys having Ellen Tauscher defend her — maybe they can campaign in each others’ primaries next spring.
Sent letters to my Senator (Bob Corker) and Rep (David Davis) Asked them when we could meet over the Holiday.
If not Gore. Dodd/Edwards?
I don’t buy this. With every day that passes, more people want the war over, and they want it more intensely. That’s been the case since 2004, and it’s not going to change. And the general public isn’t going to be picky about who ends it, as long as it ends.
The fact that public opinion will boost our cause more in September doesn’t excuse not ending the war now. But it should be something that motivates us not to go pout in our tents over some pols’ spinelessness. We knew all along they’d have to be dragged kicking and screaming.
Elliott @ 27
Hi Elliott!
Strong writing, Jane.
Good for Sen. Dodd. Have Clinton or Obama said how they will vote?
Got an e-mail from Sen. Leahy. He’s voting no. We need more like him.
How many more people will die in Iraq between now and September?
How do you ask someone to be the last American to die for the Democrats’ PR strategy?
Jane Hamsher @ 13
Funny. I just got off the phone with Matt.
I don’t see how Clinton or Obama can expect to win the nomination if they vote for this.
In fact, I think their hesitance alone is going to hurt them. It calls into question the candor of their statements in opposition to the continued occupation. They’ve both left themselves wiggle room on what they would actually do.
I still think there is a good chance that either would continue an indefinite occupation using the infrastructure that’s in place for doing so.
Where are we as far as the vote goes,timewise?
There hasn’t been a vote yet has there?
What’s simply Darwin about Pelosi and Reid’s actions is that the Republicans are going to use the Defeatocrat/Troophater/Surrender Monkey meme anyway NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS. The Democrats made this same stupid mistake on supporting action against Iraq… AND STILL GOT BLASTED FOR BEING UNPATRIOTIC COWARDS BY THE GOP ATTACK MACHINE.
The attacks are going to come whatever the leadership does, so why not do the right thing?
Why?
I don’t think I’d realized with such stark reality that the lives of my son and all the other kids and Iraqis mean squat to both parties. Democrats or Republicans, all that matters to them is playing the political game.
Today, I’m feeling pretty damn hopeless about the lot of them.
Too bad we don’t have a Glade “refresh comments” button for DC PR people, new and improved with fresh pine scent.
I just don’t see how the Dems can possibly think that they can get away with this horse-shit. Seventy six percent of Americans want this war ended yesterday, and they are trying to blame Bush for their own cowardice. They just don’t have the stones to call Bush on his despicable ploy of using American troops in Iraq as hostages to his monstrous ego and his denial of how disastrous his war of choice has become. They don’t even seem to realize that the people see through this bullshit much faster than they can shovel it. The Dick Cheney Dems (I like that label) and their consultants have convinced the leadership that war profiteering and not ending the war will serve them better than standing up to Bush and fulfilling their campaign promises.
Biggus Diggus @ 7
Hell, it doesn’t even make sense as political calculation. Bushies will still attack them for not supporting the troops, and most of the public wants us out of the occupation. So what the hell are Dems getting out of this?
A circular firing squad.
neurophius @ 35
I called Clinton’s office. She is not going to issue a statement before her vote. IOW, she wants to vote for the bill but is afraid of what it would do to her chances of getting nominated.
I think she’s in Schumer’s “make the republicans end this” camp, which is one horrifically immoral place to be.
Mutant Poodle @ 23
Know how you feel. My Rep is Mike Rogers. I let him know how I feel all the time, but I may as well be talking to a 2×4. Luckily I have two good Senators. I’ve got my fingers crossed.
Swopa @ 33
I received the e-mail from democrats.com yesterday and signed their peition and sent e-mails to my congressional representative and senators. I left a note in the comments that ANY vote in favor of this bill would be prolonging the occupation brought about by Bush’s ill-conceived, ill-planned, ill-managed mis-adventure in Iraq and that the blood of the troops dying and injured was on their heads.
Since my rep is Lamar Smith and the Senators are Hutchinson and Cornyn, I do not anticipate being listened to in any way. But I got on the record.
TR @ 39
It goes against our grain to believe this but eventually it sinks in.
With all due respect to Jane’s righteous anger, it smells less like cowardice than Lieberman to me. Right before the “compromise” bill was announced, there were rumors all over that Lieberman was once again talking about switching parties. I think he blackmailed the Dems into giving Bush a victory by threatening to jump. Yeah, sure, he might have been crying wolf and it’s not a given it would cede control to the Rethugs, but the Dems couldn’t take the chance of losing their majority (and control of the legislative bus), so they caved, making themselves looked both calculating and stupid. And they couldn’t talk about it because they’d have to admit they were punked by one of their own.
My government is sending six cargo flights full of ammunition to the Lebanese military to facilitate the killing of more Palestinians in a refugee camp.
Jane -
I haven’t had a chance to see whether this important post from Steve Clemons has been mentioned on any of today’s other threads:
Cheney Attempting to Constrain Bush’s Choices on Iran Conflict: Staff Engaged in Insubordination Against President Bush
Thanks for the Olberman clip, Jane, great stuff–and I hope you are doing well.
I suggest that everybody get after their favorite Dem to END THE WAR NOW. Maybe we can turn this around (NYT just reporting that opposition to the war is at an all-time high)
Sorry I can’t stay around, check this thread later.
Sally @ 18
Funny thing Sally, I wa just about to make the same comment. If they back down on this the GOP will just walk all over them in the future. Although I am not a US citizen, we in Europe know that you still have an influence on world politics. After November there was a great feeling of relief over here that perhaps now Mr. Bush and his minions would be held in check, I am very disappointed in the Democratic party, they have absolutely nothing to lose by going head to head with Mr. Bush on this but it looks as if they have chickened out. Such a shame!
dalloway @ 48
Why would HoJo jump? He can’t afford to. The Dems are gonna be back in the majority in ‘08 anyway, so he’d just be burning any bridges he had left now.
dalloway @ 48
He’s not one of their own. That’s the problem, innit?
do-si-do @ 40
Wouldn’t do any good, it would still be a pile of odoriferous manure.
I officially left the party today.
Well, almost: I ordered the paperwork from the city to change my affiliation to Independent. And I have taken myself off the DNC’s mailing list.
I’m done. Speaking as someone who’s had his share of knives in the back, I don’t take this shit from anyone.
And there are quite a few democrats I would like to personally punch in the face.
Could someone explain how “progress” in Iraq is going to be measured, and who’s going to do the measuring?
If we’re relying on Bush, please go straight to the insane asylum. He’s been saying forever that “things are looking up,” and corners have been turned.
So if the Dems are trusting him to give an accurate analysis & report on whether there’s been “progress”? Pul-eeze!
PS – I sure would like to see folks here weigh in on how this Dem capitulation helps Hillary. After all, Rahm Emmanuel is one of the architects, and we know that getting her, and thus him, back to the WH is his main goal in life. I think he’s engineered this disaster thinking that it’s helped Hillary continue her wishy-washy “I won’t condemn the war” position, in furtherance of her thinking that that will appeal to the American public.
I dunno: maybe it’s just my disgust speaking.
Sometimes Senator Clinton makes me irritable.
TR @ 39
Who is your son with? My friend is with 1/9 Inf, 2nd ID at Ramadi.
According to a front page post on dKos and on Calitics, Jerry McNerney announced he will vote nay.
I hope this is accurate. He certainly received many blistering e-mails criticizing his nay on McGovern (including mine).
I wonder if the nay voters will make the announcement and the yea voters will be silent.
I’ve got a place for KO’s shoes…under my bed.
Is there any way to have Bushco’s new emergency law (werein he gets to take over decidering simply everything) unconstitutional BEFORE he tries to use it???? I’m asking…
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 50
Does it suprise anyone that Darth Vader is itching to bomb Iran? If they go through with it, I just hope that the military brass goes through with their threats and resign. Besides, if Iran is attacked, the economy will tank even more than it would otherwise be.
Right on, Jane!
I loved the Olberman smackdown. The Democratic leadership’s collective ears should be burning with embarrassment over this meltdown.
The best thing would be for most Democrats to vote NO! on this bill, so that most of the yes votes are Republican. That will increase the acute embarrassment of any Dem. Presidential candidate foolish enough to vote yes.
John Edwards is right on this. They should just have sent Bush the very same bill that Bush already vetoed. Again.
Bob in HI
Two noteworthy items from ThinkProgress, both posted within the last 45 minutes:
New FISA court appointee was Libby judge
Sen. Whitehouse: Gonzales May Be Guilty Of Obstruction Of Justice
brendancalling @ 56
Not criticizing your choice, but I wouldn’t give the Republicans that satisfaction, myself.
The dems could have forced bush by his veto to pull the war funding thereby turning his own argument about not supporting the troops against him, but instead they fold 4 aces. I am sick beyond words.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 58
And pulling this shit, she still thinks she can win the Dem nomination? Is her plan to piss off the base so much they’ll not come out and vote in the primary, assuring her of victory?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 49
raven @ 59
My son is with 2/6 Inf., out of Germany. He’s not in country right now but he’ll be heading back for his third round this fall.
Good thing these pussy senators aren’t in Iraq. People like Hillary being afraid to vote is disgusting.
How long would it take them to vote if they had on a kevlar vest in 120 degree heat with insurgents all around them?
Have they already voted?
ccmask @ 61
I think his 23 year old live-in girlfriend might have a problem with that ; )
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 63
Not one good thing could come out of bombing Iran, no matter how we pieced the world back together.
If the Democratic leadership caves on an Iraq pullout timetable, what makes you think they’ll stop Bush from attacking Iran?
Swopa @ 33
I am usually one to squawk about Emanuel being an ex-IDF warmonger, but if one were to play play devil’s advocate and defend him, is there any prospect of the status quo being more destructive to the Republican Party politically than trying to end the war now? Emanuel has made cynical statements to the effect that Democrats want Republicans to “own the war” and make them run on it in 2008. Republicans won’t run against the war in 2008 and it will only easier for Democrats, even Clinton, to run against it. Maybe he’s just resigned to events taking their course and defeat being all the more gruesomely apparent. That’s one fatalistic way to resign oneself to this for the moment.
TR @ 70
Best to him and you.
On the MCA we got cooked on the “unanimous consent” agreement that set the terms of the debate and made a filibuster impossible. The agreement was made a week beforehand well out of the limelight and all the calls for filibuster afterwards were procedurally useless.
Call your senators and let them know you expect them to object to any unanimous consent agreement to limit debate.
Given that Feingold-Reid garnered well short of 41 votes a successful filibuster seems unlikely, but don’t let them try to sneak out of town saying “Our hands were tied by the unanimous consent”.
(BTW, happily my own MA-08 Congressman Capuano is voting against the supplemental. Kerry and Kennedy had not taken positions as of this morning.)
I said above,
“How do you ask someone to be the last American to die for the Democrats’ PR strategy?”
I want to add, “And die in vain, because the strategy isn’t going to work.”
next week our reps are going to be home.
i’m going to be watching how mine vote in both the house and senate (on the rule in the house)… and visit accordingly.
note – they really hate to have anti-war protests (even small ones) outside their offices.
if we make ‘em regret their vote, maybe they won’t make the same mistake again.
p.s. and i really hate the process going on in the house right now meant to confuse and prevent accountability (and my rep is on the rules committee!).
Some very interesting speculation about the “bill”:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..14956/9186
That sounds like they think they can abdicate their position in government for some convenient period of time. Maybe they should abstain and see where that gets them.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 75
What makes you think they have the power to stop him? Do you think the Constitution, much less the War Powers Act, is operative?
dalloway @ 48
Do we have to explain again that control of the Senate is fixed until the 111th Congress is seated in 2009? And that RGJoe’s leaving to joing the GOP will change the majority but won’t change control?
I hope not.
These bozo consultants are probably the same ones that gave then minority leader Dascle the advice to authorize the war and get the issue out of the public eye in the first place so that they “could put it behind them.” What a bunch of knuckleheads. Don’t see Dascle in the Senate anymore and that’s what’s going to happen to folks who authorize this mess. These folks in power sure do have short memories…
I believe the U.S and Israeli governments are driving this attack on the Palestinian refugee camp.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 25
Actually, didn’t Pelosi say she was going to vote No on this supplemental?
This could turn out to be a smart tactic if most of the Yes votes are Republicans, but they don’t get enough votes in the House to pass it.
Bob in HI
The Democrats are proving the old adage correct: If you don’t stand for something, you’ll fall for anything.
You’ve got to go toe-to-toe with Bush and not blink. Repeat after me: We already funded the troops. Bush doesn’t think we should leave Iraq, and we disagree.
There, that wasn’t so hard, was it?
Between now and September, I suggest the Democratic leadership play this video every damn morning when they get up and every damn night before they go to bed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofwPKcnEOdE
They need to internalize Tom Petty’s message!
TeddySanFran @ 21
Ah, the not-so-closet authoritarian speaks! Disagreeing with the Speaker is “personal,” just like Jimmy Carter’s critique of Bush foreign policy was a “personal attack” (according to Huckabee.) Supporting the boss is “taking it seriously,” but standing up to Bush is being a “critic du jour.” (Du jour, eh, Ellen? I bet most of those antiwar votes are a hell of a lot more consistent in their views than you are.)
Joe Klein’s conscience@53–
Yup, the Democrats will be back in the majority, hopefully much stronger, and HoJo will be an ignored backbencher, no matter how many committees his seniority enables him to chair. This and other stunts like it qualify him for a fat job at any number of defense industries benefiting from the war. If he helps Giuliani get elected, there will be a cabinet post. HoJo’s calculated his future and it ain’t with the Democrats. That’s why he accepted Republican campaign funds and became Bush’s bitch.
I agree, but the dems in congress are obviously expecting their checks from somewhere else than the American Electorate, if you ask me. Otherwise, why the recent votes against what we want???
If we attack Iran it could very well be the start of World War III. So states Noam Chomsky and me.
brendancalling @ 56
Good luck getting anyone at the DNC to notice. Six weeks ago, I stopped my Democracy Bond contribution & sent an email telling them why — and have heard nothing. There’s something wrong in Dr Dean’s customer/member/donor relations department.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 68
Oh, the base will turn out and vote, all right. They’ll just vote for someone other than Hillary.
When does Walton start FISA? Who sentences Libby?
I called the local office of Neal (MA-02) about an hour ago, and when I mentioned the war, got transferred to DC.
I didn’t get the name of whoever answered. Almost sounded like staffer as opposed to intern. According to this person, Neal is ‘waiting to see the details’ of whatever ‘the leadership’ ends up creating. Expecting vote laaate tonight.
The very personable woman in DC mentioned he’s ‘always been against the war.’ Which is true. Voted ‘NO’ on AUMF and just about everything else related since then. Filed ‘NO Iran’ bill in Feb. w/Jones (R-NC) and Ron Paul. In the ‘Out of Iraq Caucus’. So, I can’t quite grok the stand.
I reinforced the view of NOT ANOTHER PENNY. Which was agreed with by this woman. Also noted movement by Jackson-Lee and others for ‘public financing’ of Fed Elections.
She noted the info and took my name. (And I forgot to get hers…for future contact. D’oh!).
At least they’ve got a name that’s called now.
I consider Sen. Clinton virtually a lost cause, although I’d love to be proven wrong.
If Obama votes for this outrage, he will have given up any claim he might have had to moral leadership.
I have remained uncommitted on 2008 but if Clinton and Obama vote yes, I will be supporting John Edwards as the most viable alternative.
Is that rain?
.
.
.
Why, no — it’s just a bunch of Beltway Democrats pissing on my leg!!!
Bob Schacht @ 87
Yes, I believe that’s the case. But let me get this straight. The Speaker supported the funding bill, but will vote against it?
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/….._0524.html
catching up on comments-don’t know if anyone posted this yet=
for those of us on dial-up who can’t do video-
stephen parrish P.I. posted this earlier-is a transcript of the olberman commentary.
TeddySanFran @ 99
Oh my…
Oklahoma kiddo @ 86
And I think one of the greatest mistakes that, “we” in the anti-war movement made during the Second Indochina War was to deify the NVA and VC and ignore the misery they inflicted on their own people. I say that in full respect of your perspective.
brendancalling @ 56
don’t forget to change back to “D” before the primaries – that is one easy way to work for change in the party.
Bless me but you would think that any good Democratic member of congress would regard having W and his cronies saying bad things about them as a fricking badge of honor – not something to be avoided. I’d rather have these pigs say bad things about me than let our troops be killed for nothing a day longer – but I guess I’m not congressional material.
I just watched Olbermann’s special comment. Yes. Betrayal is the correct word.
Political considerations? I’m talking about dead bodies. Ours and theirs.
hi gang – i’m still upset but thinking a bit more clearly – KO speaks for me when he does his “special comments” – gotta love him and i for one am glad he’s there to speak!
Professor Foland @ 78
Got email from Kerry saying he’s voting no. It’s up on Kos as well.
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 50
All the more reason to support Kucinich’s bill to impeach Cheney!
Bob in HI
Raven: And best wishes for your friend’s safe return.
I wish all the kids could come home sooner rather than later.
Jane,
You go girl.
This is crap. Democrats were given the majority for one reason, to end the frakin’ war!
Nancy Pelosi, read my lips: Elections have consequences. The consequence of the last election is that DEMOCRATS are now tasked to cut off Commander Codpiece’s war .
I am normally a fan of compromise and comity, but not when it gets our sons and daughters killed.
This is not like horsetrading pork barrel spending, this is life nad death.
Take every single bit of pork out of the bill. Make it a single issue bill and put in the timeline.
Force him to veto it. Otherwise the Democratic Majority will have lost the moral high ground and any hope of winning in 2008.
Do you want to never see power again? This is the way to do it.
Oh, and would someboday please not let Rahm Emanuel anywhere near a microphone or podium ever again? He is so dangerous to all hope of future Democratic victory.
Last item: Until we have a Presidential nominee, Howard Dean is the leader of our party.
Dr. Dean, get out there, show you face, and lead
I LOVE Keith Olbermann. His is the only news show I ever watch on TV.
OT —- I am now officially a 10th grader.
Bob Schacht @ 64
Right On Jane AND Bob in HI.
Edwards has the strategy that Pelosi and Reid need. And I especially agree, whatever backroom deals were made in this act of Democratic-majority General McLellanism should be exposed before the next election, so we can weigh the realities and the extent of this acquiescent “compromise” and determine which Democrats need to be replaced, along with so many R’s like Lungren, King, Cannon, Doolittle,(may not be an issue by election time),Issa, etc etc etc etc etc, all the rest of the despicable Republican Enabler’s Society.
Louise Slaughter speaks to the Iraq issue and honestly too.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/5/24/143738/794
dmac @ 101
Thanks for those of us at work.
TeddySanFran @ 84
Control is fixed? Says who? Democrats who can’t muster the will or political skill get rid of an Attorney General who’s broken the law more times that I can count? If it’s a Senate rule that says control is fixed, Republicans will change it the second they have 51 votes to do so. If it requires a 2/3 majority, they’ll change that, too. And who will stop them? The Justice Department?
Yeah. If you think this clock-run-outing is disgusting, wait until you see what Shooter has cooked up for Iran.
Janes says:
I disagree, I think it smells of oil. The dems know full well that oil is running down and that we should reach peak in 2010 or thereabouts. And our dems have know for a long time that we have been building four massive forward bases along with the largest embassy in the world and they have done nothing.
My conclusion is that the Dems are in basic agreement with Bush’s objectives. Not perhaps his methods. This explains much of Dem behavior that otherwise seem inexplicable. Want to understand why our Dems have been acting the way they have? Just add oil.
ix-nay on the ussy-pay and itch-bay chat, please.
no need to namecall in a way that demeans pussies and bitches, methinks.
SnarKassandra @ 113
congratultions. you have a bright future.
SnarKassandra @ 113
Congrats!! You will have to start thinking about college soon.
TR @ 106
this is how it feels to me, in a way
Have a Heart
Won’t be getting checks from others either, I suspect.
Most businesses consider Iraq bad for the bottom line. The rest vote Republican.
looseheadprop @ 112
Frakin’? Frakin’?
The Gods of Kobol will get you for that one!
;)
Dunno, Swopa. I think this will do to the Dems what immigraion is doing to the GOP. That’s why Bush’s poll numbers are so low — it’s an issue that picks off the base, just like this one does for the Dems. People are PISSED.
I say the congress needs to filibuster this bill.
Stand up or get out of the way.
AZ Matt @ 121
Maybe after the long weekend!
If no one fights the occupiers and oppressors. What then? Give the Palestinians dignity and stop the carnage in the West bank and Gaza. Give the Palestinians a homeland, like what was rightly done for the Jewish people in 1948.
but i wish feingold would reconsider running for the WH…. as a supporter of his patriots fund i’ll support his choices – i have no presidential candidate i care to support at this time..
SnarKassandra @ 113
WooHoo! Yay!
Truisms about the behavior of the “leadership” of our Legislative and Executive Branches of government in 2007, and a mirror of our society’s culture as a whole (but not of the true worth of the majority of the American people, in my opinion):
[Both comments from Christy’s long Disgusted thread]
raven @ 103
we don’t need to put “white hats” on anyone to advocate for the universality of human rights…. including the right of people living in a refugee camp for 50 years not to be attacked and killed.
it does sound like we may be funding both sides – from seymour hersh.
triciawrites @ 126
YES! Bush is the one that decided not to fund the troops after the congress gave him funding a few weeeks ago.
test
what give with the dixpay?
jane hamsher @ 126
No, no, no — didn’t you hear Rahm?? It’s raining.
I voted, among other things, to get out of Iraq last November. I’m sore at the Dems. Very sore.
TeddySanFran @ 84
Control is fixed? Says who? Democrates who can’t muster the will or political skill to get rid of an Attorney General who’s broken the law consistently for the past three years? If it’s a Senate rule that says control is fixed, Republicans will change it the second they have 51 votes. If it’s a 2/3 majority rule, they’ll change that, too. Who’s going to stop them? The Justice Department? The Supreme Court?
Elliott @ 74
Bomb Iran and the price of oil zooms to $100 per barrel.
Not all bad for Exxon Mobil.
SnarKassandra @ 133
Right you are, SnarKassandra.
Why can’t Democrats in Congress see that clearly?
I am getting angry.
Shhhh…see me at aisle 81
jayackroyd @ 44, Senator Clinton is going to make a statement after she votes? A leader would be issuing KO-like statements before anyone votes.
JeffinBerlin @ 52, the rest of the world sees how things are here with much more clarity than we do. For too long we’ve believed our own hype about what a great and unbeatable democracy we are. Yet we were taken down from within. By two-bit players. Using every fascist maneuver available to them. A sad day for us and I believe for the rest of the world who believed in us, too. Thank you for joining in our lament.
Guess what? They haven’t just capitulated on Iraq. They’ve totally punted on Iran, too.
I learned today that Sen. Webb’s amendment S. 759, which would have required Bush to return to Congress before attacking Iran, was essentially put to sleep in the Foreign Relations Committee because it wasn’t “germane” to the Iraq supplemental bill.
Phule @ 38
Yes. The Dems are worried that the R’s will call them bad names if they don’t capitulate.
What, they think the Repubs will congratulate and endorse them now?
Seriously. I’ve heard the term “Democratic Strategist”, but I’ve have yet to see evidence of such a thing.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 129
Yea and fighting for peace is like fucking for chastity.
pardon the full-blown neurosis here, but what–to borrow terminology from Evil Dr. P–fuckery is assigning Walton to FISA court? Will Walton be on FISA by the sentencing date? Will somebody else have to do sentencing–and need time to get up to speed on docs and transcript? Help.
Exactly SnarKassandra, Bush didn’t fund the troops. I agree with neurophius also.
Why is Congress so beholden to Bush that they ignore the will of the people who elected them?
Maybe we should hold our fire..and observe.
Hillary Clinton. Yuk.
LS @ 81
Heh. I hope its true.
Bob in HI
SnarKassandra @ 113
Yay! Congrats!
I’m most surprised at Webb. All that about ‘I want my son to come home”. What happened?
And then there’s Rahm Emanuel crowing today about the Ethics and Lobbying Reform bill being debated in the House. He’s lying again, and David Dreier of all people was able to immediately call him on it on the House floor… The Republican-Corporate ethics bill passed in the House last year was at least as strong as today’s version, yet Emanuel would have us believe the new Democratic-Corporate bill is the best package since the Watergate reforms.
Oh, yeah, Rahm Emanuel really thinks he’s got it going on, and he and Steny Hoyer think they’ve got us (and Pelosi), but good, this time, on their Iraq Corporate Capitulation scam…
brendancalling @ 56
I’ve been a registered independant since 18. So i’m not allowed to vote in primaries? oh well. i still make my vote count locally otherwise. I didn’t think of it at the time, but it was a wise thing to do back in 1996.
If Bush calls the Democrats bad names — which is a given, regardless what they do — people will like the Dems. The President is sinking to 25% in the polls. Teh base is peeling away from him on his Great Immigration Cave-In, citing McCain/Bush’s alliance with the Great Satan Teddy Kennedy.
Also, NASCARites hate losers — they are happy to have a good reason to abandon Bush, on immigration, since he’s looking like a loser.
Giving W this win on funding may be the single thing that helps him climb outta the toilet. It’s stupid short-term, it’s stupid long-term, and it’s stupid mid-term. Where’s the win here? The win for our country? The win for our party? The win for our troops? The win for Iraqi children?
I really don’t see it.
Sally @ 143
Yes, I think this is a I voted against the war before i voted for it kind of moment for her.
The worst possible thing she can do is shilly-shally and try to hide her position, regardless how she ends up voting because neither the independents Mark Penn is warning her about (although from the polls I’ve seen, they don’t really seem to exist) will trust a vote for the bill nor will the base trust a nay as her actual position.
Dodd has helped himself enormously here. He may rise out of the third tier.
Pelosi and Reid must step down NOW. They are both ineffective and totally out of their depth. Jack Murtha would make a perfectly serviceable Speaker of the House and Russ Feingold would be a wonderful Senate Majority Leader.
They MUST resign their posts. They are directly responsible for this debacle. Their “deft leadership” is leading to yet another Blank Check Congress. Interestingly, looking at the polling data, the same percentage of people that want us out of Iraq ASAP is equivalent to the disapproval level for congress right now. Amazing how that works. They (the Dems) have placed themselves squarely into the same approval level as Bush.
This is NOT the way to win elections in ‘08. In fact, it is looking to be a total bust at this point. The GOP turnout is likely to be low and the Dems, by their craven disregard for the voters, are bound and determined to suppress the voter turnout for them.
The so-called leadership must change. They (and we) are f*cked otherwise. How do we setup a grassroots No Confidence vote for Pelosi and/or Reid? They need to get the message loud and clear (and resign).
I’m holding out hope that “Grannie” fights like a girl ;> I don’t feel like eating crow in a couple of weeks.
If you haven’t already – I think everyone should go see LS at 81. If true, this may be the ticket.
You mean the way the Dems are continually keeping their powder dry?
We need a no confidence vote for Pelosi and Reid. They must go.
Helen @ 158
Shhhhhhhh. ;P
Toasted Teefs-n-Tufts
SnarKassandra @ 113
You go Cassie!
So what’s down the line? U.S. Attorney first, and then President of the U.S.A.? Don’t know if that route has ever been taken before, but don’t let that stop you!
Bob in HI
Bob Schacht @ 163
That works. I have to wait until 35 anyway for prez.
Praedor Atrebates @ 158
Do you remember Pelosi tried to replace Hoyer with Murtha? That was right before she exposed herself to a concerted press smear by going to Syria and right after she got Harman booted. She’s not omnipotent.
Did the U.S. and Britain fight the Third Reich and the Japanese government for peace during WWII?
btw Cassie, 10th Grade was a very good year!
and you’ll say the same thing someday.
Professor Foland @ 78
thanks – that’s an important point…. i called my senators back to ask about that. neither kerry’s office or kennedy’s office would comment on my request to object to any “unanimous consent agreement”, but at least they are both now saying they will vote against the bill.
btw – their offices must be getting hammered… long waits to get through. good.
OT- Just skimming the thread @ lunchtime. Someone upstairs already pointed this out- Judge Reggie Walton was appointed to FISA effective May 19. So, who sentences Libby on June 5? Walton?
Heartfelt congratulations, SnarKassandra! May you truly reside at the crest of the wave.
LS @ 162
The theory that there are secrets in the bill is pitiful.
SnarKassandra @ 113
Congratulations, SnarKassandra. I’m so impressed that a busy teen like you can pay such close attention to the news and have such an informed and independent opinion on the issues of the day. We need more like you!
Thanks for the happiest news this week. :)
Bob Schacht @ 151
This is really wishful thinking. These people won’t listen to the American public, much less Iraqis. And they would just replace an uppity Iraqi parliament.
A former sportscaster (Olbermann) is so much smarter and principled than most of our politicians and talking brains.
I don’t like to keep harking on about Iran but if they do decide to attack then you can pretty well say goodbye to all your troops in Iraq, Kuwait and Qatar. The Emirates will disappear – remember there are over 400,00 Iranians scatered around the Gulf. Lebanon will disappear as well, and revert back to Syria where it originally belonged before the French decided they wanted a “colony” in the ME, Turkey would probably take over the Kurdish part of Iraq and you will have Mr. Bush’s “New Middle East” fulfilled, but not in the way he wanted. Don’t underestimate Russia’s role in all this – Europe is reliant on Russian oil and gas so I don’t think you’ll get any help from here. As KO says “goodnight and Good Luck”.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 175
Let’s make him a politician.
Solai @ 153
is webb going to vote yes on this?
I usually try to give the dems the benefit of the doubt- but this time they fucked up so badly that there IS no doubt.
They said that they were gonna go kick the shit out of clusterfuck- they came back from the “negotiation” sayin “Well I hadta give him everything he wanted- but I got this nice Bush tee shirt and he signed it an everything.
Putting in a clause with benchmarks and leaving it to his “discretion” to enforce em or not treats him as if he was the wisest man on the planet rather than the most stupid.
Then- ta top it all off- they do another “negotiation” and come out supporting HIS immigration bill.
This ain’t how ya beat these guys. Better to come back and say:
“We thought we could get something done- but the President won’t budge- so we lost this round- he offered a bunch of shit that was worse than useless- so we told him ta shove it up his ass. We promised we’d fund the troops-and we will- but only for four months- and we PROMISE that if there is not progress by September we will vote to cut off all funding for this war. Enjoy your short victory asshole..”
That I could respect— and I would say “We’re gonna tear up Clusterfuck’s immigration plan and start from scratch cause it’s got the stench of stupidity all over it-
so that when it’s all done the president will have to join THEIR bill rather than the other way around.
They are about to revitalize the presidency of a guy who was down for the count- why?
The Democratic leadership is leaving much to be desired. Everytime I see Reid, he reminds me of some wimp who just got chewed out by his boss for the umpteenth time, and capitulates to keep the status quo. Everytime I see Pelosi, she is sporting a new fashion straight out of Cosmopolitan, and spews out another metaphor to describe Bush’s stance on the war. Both are terrible leaders, both insist they are doing their best, and both are getting their asses handed to them.
JeffinBerlin @ 176
Bush expected to be redrawing that map. Sorry, madman, you got out-madmanned by another madman.
FWIW, Rep. Slaughter has a diary at DKos.
And, rwc — if his presidency is revitalized in any small measure, the Vulcans will convince him his way to excellence is through glassifying Tehran.
oddmommy @ 178
I don’t know but he voted against Reid-Feingold. I was stunned. So did Tester and McCaskill
brendancalling @ 56
Wow, I have a different take on this altogether.
I’m not going to leave the party. In fact, I’ll be even more vocal. I’m not going to let a handful of DLCers (who pee their pants just thinking about how the RNC might criticize them) dominate the thinking in the Democratic party. If people like us leave, then the party loses its way altogether.
They’re going to have to put up with me and the hundreds of thousands like me – the true center of the Democratic party, the ones who think this capitulating is needless, pointless, and self-defeating in the long run. I’m not going to let them run away with my party and drive it into the ground.
raven @ 146
Who says Palestinians, or Iraqis, for that matter, are fighting for “peace”. They’re fighting for sovereignty, a sine qua non for peace.
jayackroyd @ 157, Senator Dodd is an honorable man. Perhaps that’s the most we can hope for from our president. I’m already sick to death of the games the other presidential candidates are playing and this Iraq funding bill scenario has significantly limited those I might consider voting for.
Doesn’t have to be but the buck stops at creating yet another Blank Check Congress. Under HER watch, the Dems are now in the same approval rating territory as Bush. Why is that, do you suppose? Do you think it will only go higher now that they’ve given in to Bush who merely garners 28-30% support from the public while ending our involvement in Iraq garners 60+%? Instead of going with the massive wave of support by the people that put the Dems in the majority to wind down Iraq, they decided to go along with the 29%ers on the wrong side of the ideological divide!
She is ineffective. In less than a year she has turned the Congress into weaker image of the previous GOP Congress: Weakened ethics reforms so that they are teethless and meaningless. Taken away any and ALL teeth from their purchase agreement on the Iraq Debacle.
She is ineffective and she, as leader, IS responsible for the collapse of support for Congress because Congress is NOT doing what they were hired to do. What do you do to employees that behave so? You fire their ass!
She doesn’t own her position, WE do. She must go and someone with a spine needs to step in. Same with Reid (and I don’t want to hear any boxing idiot shit). Reid has failed on virtually all major issues as well. Getting in an occassional solid jab doesn’t make up for the regular pummeling he and the party takes at the hands of the GOP and Bush.
Pelosi and Reid are both pathetic and weak.
landofthefree @ 158
I’m with you on that sentiment
Wow, LS@81, that’s so cool.
JeffinBerlin #176.
Turkey is going to invade Iraqi Kurdistan eventually, anyway. As to the rest, IMO the biggest reason Bush won’t withdraw from Iraq is to keep the US military forward-deployed for the Iran/Caspian Sea basin campaign, and count on the Saudis to restrain the Syrians and protect the Emirates. Totally agree with your point wrt Russian oil and Europe.
Solai @ 184
I’m not a constituent, but I want to know Webb’s justification. He is one of the few I feel is truly committed to ending the war.
http://webb.senate.gov/contact/
It’s not possible someone “got to” all of them.
I think I had that poster.
My son turns 18 today. He signed up for the draft yesterday. At his grad blast two days ago, military recruiters had donated games, food, prizes. A few of his friends going into the military, three off to college at Annapolis and the AF Academy. Nine paratroopers from Ft. Richardson killed in the past week! 43 from the Ft. Rich brigade since November!
I hate every minute of this goddam fucking war!
I’m hoping that we can eventually stop singing, Go Granny Go, and start singing Go Granny Go.
I’m locked and loaded, but I’m holding my fire for a little while longer.
So, can Move On become a political party?
What about the Blog Party?
For you naysayers out there, do you now understand how Nader got so many votes? It wasn’t because Nader was so good, it was that those voters were desperate to say “FUCK NO!!!” to a choice between fascists and corporationalists. Or as Ariana said, it was a choice between “the pro-life corporate party and the pro-choice corporate party.”
Right now, I see little difference between Pelosi saying she probably won’t vote for the bill (knowing it will pass) and NARAL’s support for cloture on Alito’s confirmation.
I guess our real choice is if we don’t side with the democrats in the short run, will the republicans win and ruin absolutely everything worth saving? I mean, supporting democrats doesn’t seem to be averting catastrophe in the short run.
…and Bush & Cheney just sit back, laugh, and transfer thier money to la Repblica del Paraguay — that bastian of civil rights.
Ed*ard Teller @ 193
Happy birthday and I hope your son stays safe.
Raven #146,
707!
Loo Hoo @ 190
Well — if it’s true, it doesn’t matter, because Bush will ignore it.
And I doubt it’s true.
Any Democrat with Presidential hopes will vote no on this appropriation bill.
What Congressional Democrats still fail to realize is that the American people are DEAD-SET against this occupation.
Bush had his chance to sign an appropriations bill. He vetoed it. Send it back with timelines. Let him deny the troops funding!
Praedor Atrebates @ 158
I second that – this is pure and utter bullshit
Loo Hoo @ 190
Is that really true?
These pathetic excuses are a horror. But what really bothers me is that the Democratic leadership can’t give a penetrating explanation of what the bottom line Republican argument is and what the limitations on its respectibility are.
Let me give it a shot, thus: basically, Iraq is a lost cause for the Administration and its supporters in global international diplomacy, Middle Eastern regional politics, and in its internal politics. Militarily it’s a lost cause on the strategic level. As a battleground with Al Qaeda, American efforts in Iraq have been a wash.
The only level at which the war in Iraq is not yet lost is on the tactical military level- when they go out to fight, American troops, tanks, and planes are not defeated on the battlefield.
The Republican argument is that because this one facet of the war is still going in our favor, the fight for control of Iraq is not lost- and can yet be won (though it’s not clear they actually believe that last assertion in good faith). And since war is an important and solemn endeavor, it has to be given every chance to end in success.
There are two possibilities for carrying the war on on the basis of tactical superiority and no other prospects of success. One is that there is a prolonged bloodbath that ends in the Iraqi insurgencies being physically broken. The other is a prolonged bloodbath that ends in the American combat troops and equipment there being worn out and psychologically broken.
In short- the Republican slogan of ’support the troops’ is euphemism and political shorthand for (a) a prolonged, plan-devoid, escalation and bloodbath (aka ’surge’), with (b) deployment of American ground forces until they are broken.
“Support the troops” = make our infantry fight until it’s broken.
Look at the Republicans and the pro-war sorts and tell me that’s not what they mean.
That’s what Democrats should be saying. Loudly. But don’t.
pow wow @ 154
bah, yeah i saw rahm spewing words :/
Someone in the “Disgusted” thread said they were going to put little US flags on their lawn (16?) for the troops in their state who had been killed.
I liked the idea, so I went Googling to find out how many have died who were from Ohio…
As of today – 145.
I’m sick, sick at heart, over what’s happening in Congress today.
Johnny Lib @ 200
Right. Or else don’t send him anything.
That’s what I thought. He must have had a good reason, and maybe he did. But, did he come up with an alternative? Obama was just saying that he was going to come up w/ something even better than Reid/Feingold. Still waiting. So, R/F goes down, no one comes up w/ anything better and here we are. Do you think Webb likes this bill better than he did R/F?
PLovering @ 12:41 pm -
…or for very nervous commodity speculators.
Badwater @ 200
I am in the “if” it’s true category myself.
Ed*ard Teller @ 194
Today when Bush insinuated that it was better to fight al qaeda in Iraq then here, I was sickened. That was not a reason he gave for going to war and if that was the case why not stay in Afganistan?
Dover Bitch @ 143
not sure, but it looks like the house is no help here either. which really pisses me off – i even had a promise from my rep there would be a vote on a stand alone bill.
SnarKassandra @ 197
Thanks, Cassie – and congratulations on your promotion to {{{sophomore}}}
I was thinking the other day that when I got out of the Army in late 1967, with that war already failing then, there were still kids going to Junior High School who ended up dying in Vietnam.
One more thing Bush treats the American people as though they are as ignorant as him.
Could someone bring this:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/M…..7Ak03.html
to emptywheel’s attention at:
http://thenexthurrah.typepad.c…..l#comments
I can’t post to her site.
TSF #199,
I think you’re right. Even if it IS in there, Bush would sign it, then issue a signing statement saying it doesn’t apply. This ability of the Executive to ignore the law at will, which no one seems to be challenging, is checkmate for democracy.
dmac @ 12:28 pm -
What does the abbreviation P.I. stand for?
Along with Dodd, Edwards is being vocal about ending the war. I know some here feel Edwards is justing playing to the political winds, but I disagree. He has since apologized for his vote for the Iraq war and admits it was a mistake. Something Hillary refuses to do. He has also spoken out against the Global War on Terror and is being attacked by the RNC. This indicates to me that the R’s are fearful of him. Tis a good thing.
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 206
Stock market is down 85 right now. Not sure what’s really driving it down today, but the ramping up of the Iran tensions may possibly have something to do with it – also interest rates and housing slump.
Dems are bein real patriotic- reminds me of Yankee Doodle:
“Stuck some feathers in their hats and called em macaroni”
Solai @ 207
solai: was it you who said last week that Webb opposed r/f because he is against deadlines for withdrawal?
I sent an e-mail asking for an explanation that never got answered.
Loo Hoo @ 190
If this is true, then there is hope.
Signed up for the draft? So what we have is a quasi de facto draft? I still have my draft card sent to me in 1965.
dead last @ 195
Fortunately for me I’m in Minnesota and we don’t have to pre-register with any party. You just show up, present an ID to prove who you are and maybe a utility bill to prove where you live and then you vote. That’s it, I feel sorry for those who have to jump through hoops just to vote, it must really put a crimp in things.
Praedor, Pelosi’s trying to herd cats here.
I’d like her to stand up at one of the many party meetings she must go to and say ‘this is how it’s going to be’ and tell them to vote for pulling troops out and defunding the occupation.
I don’t know how long she’d be Speaker after that, though. It would piss off the entire DLC wing of the House: they’re invested (possibly literally) in maintaining the status quo. With the Dems in the minority, in terms of power, they can go out and ask for money to defeat Repugs and people who aren’t paying close attention (and that’s almost everyone who doesn’t visit places like this) will cheerfully give them money. After all, they didn’t promise that Democrats would win ….
A commenter on the Louise Slaughter dKos diary makes the point that Newtie would sell his grandma to have our grandma’s political positioning right now. Look how far Newt got toward accomplishing something the American people clearly opposed against a President with approval ratings in the mid-60s!
Newtie, and all BushCo, are laughing at Nancy today.
Administrator,
I have posted many times on your site. Several times using the name prober, and also Randy Gorsuch. I would like to use the name San Andreas Faults from now on. It never occurred to me the –Dickish-overtones of prober until my daughter pointed it out. I cannot thank you enough for your outstanding work.
Devoted pup.
RonD @ 213
However, replaying what he said today about it over and over and over on the MSM while the country demands action, sets us up for a good public fight that would be hard for them to overcome.
Badwater @ 220
The US puppet regime in Iraq will never formally ask us to leave. Not gonna happen.
Dems deserve to have the shit kicked out of em for this asinine move- give em absolute HELL!!
RonD @ 215
maybe it’s a salvo over the executive bow.
noen @ 225
They voted on it last week and said they want the U.S. to leave.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 222
While there is no “active” draft at the moment, the Selective Service Act requires all male U.S. citizens to sign up at eighteen years of age.
The draft didn’t disappear, it’s just dormant.
landofthefree @ 185
Those are my sentiments too. I went home at lunch to call my democratic congresswomen (screw talking to Norm Coleman) and make my views known. We need to stay inside the party trying to keep the direction true rather than standing outside howling in our perfect indignation.
I’ve got some democrats that I’d like to punch too but you at least have to be in the same room to reach them.
Jane: another ENTIRE post of lambasting the democrats for not pulling the fiscal plug, and another ENTIRE post without a single syllable spoken about what is going to happen when our troops leave Iraq, or about who will, or should, get the blame for those results.
It’s incredible. Some of you people are writing paragraphs, practically term papers, about what you perceive as a democratic sellout, with evidently, not the slightest inkling of what will happen if they ARE able to unilaterally pull the troops out, without the republicans helping them do it.
“Surely they must realize that this plays into the hand of every stereotype the GOP uses to disempower and castigate the democratic party.”
Jane, is this your idea of irony?
Because; if the democrats CAN pull the funding and force a troop withdrawal in Iraq, with the republicans able to present themselves in opposition to it; then you uncomprehending zealots will find out the REAL meaning of the words “disempower and castigate”.
Do you LIKE the idea of having democratic control of congress end in two years?
And of giving the republicans a better-than-fair chance at keeping the presidency, while all we have to do now is allow time, itself, TO FORCE THEM TO COME UP WITH A “PLAN” FOR ENDING THEIR OWN SHITMIRE, and for dealing with the horrible fact of george bush sitting in the oval office, for us to point to? At this point, we can run practically anyone but Hillary, and capture the White House.
Let me ask you some direct questions:
Do you have such scorn for Karl Rove and the republicans that you believe they won’t and CAN’T flay the hide off us, when the Shiite militias take complete and unspinnable control of Basra and those southern oil fields, with all that implies, BEFORE the 2008 elections?
When there is not a vestige of “Central Government” authority down there?
When the fighting and dying in Baghdad makes what is going on there now look like child’s play?
When the Kurds drop the charade of being part of “Greater Iraq”, and grab the fields around Kirkuk, and drop the facade of a melting-pot north and crank up the ethnic-cleansing up there?
The very fact that practically every thread on here which is lacerating Pelosi and company (worse than the republicans are doing) has contained not a whisper of what is going to happen when we DO pull out of Iraq, is hard evidence of how little you guys have thought this out.
We should, of course, never have gone in. And we should leave, ASAP. But the simple fact is, that what follows is almost certain to be a Hironymous Bosch painting made live.
If the democrats have singlehandedly wielded the paintbrush to create it, I promise you, it will be easy work for the republicans to make US responsible for all the misery and difficulty to come, short AND long-term, from the masterpiece.
It IS cyinical to say “Wait”, time is on our side. But, I just don’t believe we have a choice.
We have them by the short hair. I tell you Cheyney and Bush will be forced from office before the 2008 election. If you were a republican, would you want them sitting there, for us to point to? It won’t come to impeachment. The republicans will see to it, themselves. They will have to, UNLESS, in an act of the purest stupidity, we pull the plug BY OUR LONESOME, and hand them the goddamdest “Get-out-of-Jail-free” card ever printed, by triggering the end result of THEIR stupidity and arrogance, OURSELVES.
Jane, it’s hard to believe that you people don’t understand that the REASON they are taunting us with “Why don’t YOU end it?”, is that they would LOVE for us to take the responsibility-vulture sitting on THEIR heads, and let him roost on ours, for the next, and worse, act in their bloody play.
The republicans are looking at a democratic tsunami in 2008; if Pelosi and Reid etc., end the war themselves, without a huge committment from the republicans to help them, it will be reduced to a ripple. they will be ecstatic. It will even relieve the mounting pressure on them to help get rid of bush. He can play the role of trying to salvage something from the chaos that is going to ensue when ANYONE pulls out troops out.
Jane, you want leadership and honesty?
Start demanding that the democratic candidates speak the truth to the american people about what is practically certain to follow withdrawal of our troops.
“Cynical” is Hillary Clinton saying that she will end the war in her first year in office, with NO warning to the people about what that “ending” will entail.
BTW, we all know where she stands on these matters, and on Iran, etc.
I’m said out. But we can’t keep bitching about a “sellout” by the dems, without talking about what is going to happen if they don’t “sell out”, and if they DO force a withdrawal, by themselves.
It’s not the crime- it’s the cover up-
And in this case- the dems buckling when they couldn’t muster the votes to go any further wasn’t the problem- it was tryin to cover up their surrender with bullshit that the White House “gave” em in the “negotiations”…
That’s puke inducing.
From Americablog http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…..ablog.com/
This is pretty close to the Fredo tape that Jane had on the other day…
LS @ 229
Really? OK, sorry, I guess I was wrong there.
RonD,
Thanks for your ‘hordes’ comment at the end of the last thread.
Don’t have a draft card anymore- don’t know what happened to it exactly- but somewhere there’s an ashtray——-
TeddySanFran @ 199
Plus, did they not inform Feingold, or is he purposely playing his expected role so he doesn’t raise any suspicion by coming out and supporting this, kinda like Pelosi not supporting it also.
Yea, that’s it! This is all a big switcheroo by the Dems….brillant! The Dems will be greeted as liberators and showered with flowers and chocolate in the next few months. And it’ll only cost a few more billions, and a few hundred more troops, and a few thousand more Iraqi deaths. They’re gonna rename Fort Dix, Fort Steny-Rahm.
Not holding my breath….
noen @ 235
It was the parliament that voted. Does that mean it is now law or does someone else need to sign it?
LS @ 230
This is the best thing we have going right now. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.
Yahoo News reports “The bill also for the first time explicitly states that the U.S. would leave Iraq if asked by the Baghdad government.”
Does anyone have a copy of the bill? Let’s post the exact language from the text and then publicize the holy shit out of it. It is our only viable opportunity right now.
Late to the party.
Jane you sounded great on Thom Hartmann’s program today.
I have been trying all day to call Senators Boxer and Feinstein. I couldn’t get through on any line (all busy) and their voice mail box was chock full. Go figure. I was reduced to sending an a mail to each. At least they now know how I feel about it. You don’t think they’ll “lose” my e mail do you? Nah never happen.
It wasn’t me. But, if you ever get your answer, please share it with us.
JPL @ 232
Thank you!!707
AZ Matt, you’re very welcome. I thought your statement needed to be supported.
It was a non-binding resolution of the Iraqi parliament, for domestic consumption only. No force of law there, and certainly none here.
How is it that everyone seems to miss that the President has manipulated things so as to be on track for invading Iran in October? The current funding bill was a test to see if he could bluff his way to October and Iran. This country will rue the day the Supreme Court rules against Al Gore, even those who do not do so now.
Praedor Atrebates @ 188
Of course she’s “ineffective”: she’s failed to stop the war. But she can’t do it on her own. Every move I’ve seen from her until today, including those I listed above, indicates she is pushing Democrats, not being dragged, to end the war.
Get rid of her and then what? The caucus elects Dennis Kucinich to replace her? Is that the way it would work? Or would Hoyer maybe replace her?
There are disturbing realities of power in this post-Constitutional country of ours. They’re not called “Vichy Democrats” merely because they’re cowardly: many have accommodated themselves with the Republican party, or the various interests behind the war, and they’ve done so because they’ve acknowledged they simply don’t have the power to resist.
I still think that what this is all about is oil. And that the Dems basically agree with the general objective of the administration, if not how they’ve gone about it.
Every Dem has known about the permanent bases and the huge embassy and have said and done nothing.
The moment the Iraqi parliament signs the bill giving the west access to it’s oil is the moment this war will end.
I still have my draft card, but lottery number 350 made it just another id card.
sorry for hiccup … timeshifting here
The Iraqi resolution was “nonbinding”- they were just kinda mouthing off- threatening and blustering. The vote was intended to show that Al Sadr is still influential I guess.
I apologize. I could have saved bandwidth.
The democrats do not have the power to force a withdrawal.
Events in Iraq do.
Solai @ 182
Yep, and she’s getting hammered but good. As Olbermann said in his comment last night, the American people have been years ahead of the media and the politicians on this issue. The commenters on the diary are being reasonably polite, given Slaughter’s history, but they are flat out furious.
brendan @ 214
Why’s that, brendan. Get bumped for trolling? Whatever Admiral Fallon thinks about policy, he is still obligated to follow orders from his superiors, and if he refuses, he will be removed from command and court-martialed ASAP. He does not have the luxury of choosing which orders he will obey.
dead last @ 238
After it is signed. It gives everybody a way out.
ALSadr is very influential, and allying with Sunnis to oppose ALQaida in Iraq and the occupation. It’s really come down to whether Iraq will be run by our strongman or an Iranian-allied theocrat.
JPL @ 210
Vote Republican in 2008 or Bush and Cheney won’t leave the White House.
TeddySanFran @ 254
See Asia Times for more.
JPL @ 235
lol funny, need that laff!
new post gang ….
lisadawn82 @ 189
good for both of you.
I’m tired of throwing good money after bad. And tired of wearing out my legs and knocking hand.
I don’t believe in the party anymore. I don’t trust them to say what they’re going to do, because they don’t.
So fight on friends, fight on. You sound like me last year. You’ll wake up eventually. They simply don’t care. It’s not their kids. And by the way, regarding Webb wanting his kid home? His kid IS home. They told me on the phone yesterday. So that might explain his vote.
OK–I gotta ask!
What is with that totally bizarro post up there? That opens to no comments? I checked the calender–nope, not April 1st. So what am I missing?!
I can’t believe I just watched that youtube of a bunch of pisssed off morons. Makes Goodling look like a rocket scientist. LOL.
Of course the Dems are cowards. Why are you so surprised?
Maybe everyone should head over and let her have our opinion.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/5/24/143738/794
579 comments already.
TeddySanFran @ 257
My moneys on the Iranian-allied theocrat – who, by the way, wants to keep all that lovely oil and not give 70% of the profits for the next 30 years to those nice people who have destroyed his country.
Brendan @ 258, I’m not sure that we’d have a country to defend if Bush and Cheney had four more years. The next nineteen months are going to be pretty tough.
stephen
What does the abbreviation P.I. stand for?
Private Investigator, was done affectionately; because you always come up with unique things, always interesting. I appreciate your links. Often they are related to something I am pursuing.
Months ago on a post, you linked to an artist that led to a link of an artist that had information I did not know. Thanks.
SeamusD @ 255
How is that trolling? It’s germane to the post she had and she hadn’t seen it. I don’t know how credible the report is, but it came secondhand from a source I, and others here, trust, and, in any case, it’s no less credible than the ever credulous Steve Clemons, to whom emptywheel links.
Of course Fallon would be fired? And you’re suggesting what: that would be of no political consequence? Did you here well they did finding someone to take the phony position Lute took?
brendan @ 1:16 pm -
Thank you for the reminder about the news you posted; it’s very likely that Marcy already knows about it, since (1) she frequently reads comments here and (2) that news has been posted on various FDL threads for about a week.
TSF #256,
Your comment reminds me of the conduct of Ho Chi Minh during WW2…rather than suspend his war against the French for an alliance to fight the Japanese, he insisted on trying to unify the Vietnamese to fight both the French AND the Japanese simultaneously. Is al-Sadr trying to do the same thing? It seems to have been a pretty effective strategery.
Who says Palestinians, or Iraqis, for that matter, are fighting for “peace”. They’re fighting for sovereignty, a sine qua non for peace.
You need to grow a sense of humor.
The same people that hijacked the primaries are the same ones that caved in on the Iraq Funding Bill. Schumer and Reid ( Paul hackett) Emanual (Tammy Duckworth) and tried to take credit for the gains by pounding their chests and denigrating Dean and the ‘netroots.’ The leadership is Republican lite. Until the likes of Feingold/Webb and Rep. McDermott, people who tell it like it is and can take the phony lumps to get things done we are in deep doodoo. People like these few are shoveling doodoo against the tide but they hold to their principles. They don’t change their principles to fit the situation. This Senate and House has turned shameful. It isn’t what I voted for. I expected the pullout of Iraq to be underway and it is extended. The troops are sending a message with dead and maimed bodies to stop this war of CHOICE!. They are being extended in Iraq with only 9 mos. home before being sent back. Is any thing more traitorous than getting us into a war with a country who posed no threat and couldn’t have invaded us if they even had papyrus boats.
moving on up so we don’t break the servers …
here we go
Tanbark @ 234
You imagine Republicans actually care about what happens to the Iraqis as people(s) and human beings? They haven’t yet.
The question is what the centrists really think. If they think civil war and separatism were inevitable, they won’t buy the attempt to shift blame. They’re not as moralistic as you imply.
I’d say at present the center would go neutral on who is to blame for the outcome. That’s good enough for Democrats to prevail in ‘08. But, of course, Republicans’ complete failure and discrediting would be greatly preferable.
Re LS @ 81’s DailyKos link:
Consider (as noen @ 249 also points out):
That provision about obeying the wishes of the Iraqi Parliament was written by Republican Senator John Warner – it’s Warner’s “weak tea” (in Reid’s words) amendment that Democrats are agreeing to include in their capitulation conference report.
One of the unenforcable benchmarks in the conference report is an effort to get the Iraqi oil-theft bill rammed through the Iraqi Parliament, before we will agree to leave.
If we actually succeed in ramming the oil-theft law through, why wouldn’t we “leave” (draw back to our permanent military base moats) “at the request of the Iraqis” as Warner’s amendment states? The “benchmark” and this language work hand in hand.
Don’t buy the surface spin. There’s so much political spin, lying, factual reporting blackouts, and disinformation intermingled with all of this, I’m not sure anyone knows what the truth really is about Iraq at this point. But actions still speak louder than words – and from all accounts, so does Pelosi’s current facial expression.
Err…wrong. They DO have the power to force a withdrawal. They submit a bill that contains a requirement for troop withdrawal but funds them in the meantime. Bush vetoes the bill. That’s it. War over because BUSH failed to fund the troops.
They submit the same bill again, or alter it slightly with the same end result. Bush vetoes it. BAM! Bush defunds the war AGAIN!
That is how it was supposed to play according to the will of the American people who placed the pathetic and weak characters Pelosi and Reid into leader positions. Instead, they are consciously and willingly going along with BushCo and, de facto, giving him ANOTHER blank check. They are a Blank Check Congress when they, in fact, have all the power to force and end to Iraq Debacle.
dmac @ 1:34 -
I thought that was the abbreviation you intended, but wanted to be sure.
You’re welcome. I recall finding that link, which, of course, would have been even easier to find had it involved one or more of three American artists to whom I am related.
“Obviously it’s a good move,” said Democratic pollster Fred Yang. “It gives President Bush and Republicans one less thing to shoot at” during the upcoming recess week.
And it gives Iraqi insurgents more American targets to shoot at, maim and kill while our congress members sit on their lazy, cowardly asses in the safety of their homes. Bastard!!
Solai @ 243
I will. I really want to know what is up with Webb. I don’t think he is any kind of a sellout, no way, never, doesn’t have it in him. And also I think anyone with a kid over there has more right than ANYONE to decide what should be done.
In fact, if I had my druthers, I think I’d just flush all politicians down a toilet and let the parents, spouses and children of the kids in that hellhole do the voting.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 10
I am hopeful that a “surge” of voter anger which the Dems will be feeling over the next few days will snap them to their senses and make them realize they’ve gotta get some balls for real. Better late than never.
Teddy, who is “our” strongman? I missed that one. :o)
Brendan, but Admiral Fallon does have the luxury (and evidently, the cojones. :o) ) to have a “source” leak that about:
“some of us are trying to put the crazies back in their box. :o)
From a post I did at my site yesterday, forgive the length, but there’s a slight way for the Dem leadership to make up for this soon-to-pass atrocity
The Dems leadership spins this as a win in terms of all the money that’s going to Katrina Victims, veterans care and other good causes
What’s not acknowledged, however, is that this is money that was already appropriated, or should have been earmarked, so the Dems basically told W to give them what was already due the people that money was supposed to help, go to and serve
But now that the Dem leadership has once again fumbled badly at a time competent leadership demanded at least fighting back fiercely against this most vile of bullies occupying the Oval Office, they shouldn’t expect this Administration to keep the celebrating and provocations to a minimum
If anything, now that the Dem leadership has infuriated the majority of its voters, look for this President to really rub their nose in it
So, expect to see at least one, maybe more, recess appointments be handed out while the Congress is on its Memorial Day break, and the more loathsome the candidates appointed this way, the more it’s a strategy in keeping with how Rove and W operate, both bullies who enable the worst of the other to come out
Watch for W to issue more signing statements attempting to castrate the bills the Dems traded their timeline for
Don’t be surprised if the Administration reacts in an especially churlish manner to any claims, demands or subpoenas issued during the break, and refuses to comply with any requests or demands from the Congress
In short, to build up some badly needed aggressive momentum with its wingnut, warmongering, ChickenHawk, Neocon base, this Administration and the GOP are going to ratchet up the insults and jabs aimed at the Dems during the Memorial Day Break
This Administration and GOP pushback on the Dems collapse will be infuriating to deal with, it will be absolutely enraging, it will be vile and cause spikes in blood pressure and hostility, and it will produce much gloating among people absolutely ravenous for another taste of the power they felt on W’s second inauguration, when all was right and proper in their nasty little worlds
What will make this gloating hardest to bear will be the likelihood that it won’t be countered by the Dems, that we’ll have to eat it and choke hard, just like we did when W supposedly “won” both elections
But there’s one strategy that could, if properly played by the Dem leadership, not only galvanize all us irate libs and anti-war voters, but instantly turn the tables leading to howls of fury and unsalved anger from those gloating the loudest right about now
Since the 2008 budgets will start coming up for Congressional votes in September, the Dems should say “enough” to funding all right
That is, funding the Executive Branch
I’m not talking about zeroing-out budgets for the agencies, departments and bureaus under Executive Branch control, just funding for the Executive Branch itself, it’s functions and personnel who work exclusively at the White House
Pass the various budgets, then let the Administration shift funds around, like it already does, to keep itself operating
And if the argument arises that such a punitive, spiteful act is illegal, or somehow beyond Congress’ purview, then let Congress pay as much heed to the laws and separation of powers that W does, and then go the extra step
Let Congress issue a signing statement of its own, namely, that they apportion to themselves the right to cancel out Presidential signing statements, preemptively blocking W’s ability to undercut the very bills he signs into law
Forcing the issue is exactly what the Administration, GOP and their rapidly dwindling number of true believers will never expect in the midst of their gloating, it would be a way to hit back as hard at a clearly out of control President as he enjoys lashing out at everyone else, and it would instantly regain the Dem leadership a measure of now non-existent trust from its very angry base
With or without the Dems help, the GOP collapse is already under way, as the party knows that it can’t count on help from an embattled, bunkered-down Administration, yet still hasn’t found enough strength to toss the President and Cheney over the political rail, in spite of the smacking the voters gave the GOP and Administration’s Iraq policy in the November 2006 elections
The GOP needs to be pushed off the political ledge, and the Dems can’t do that by giving W everything he wants every time he throws a hissy fit and stamps his little feetsies in whiny petulance
So, like so many parents when they threaten to “give you something to cry about”, let the Dems give W something to throw a temper tantrum over, just like taking a favored belonging away from a spoiled brat
Zero Out the Executive Branch Funding At The First Available Opportunity
Jillian, of course they don’t care. They didn’t care when the WMD’s and the Al Queada camps evaporated, forcing them to slip the “justification” pea under the human rights shell, four years ago.
But if the democrats do this alone, the GOP will weep gallons of tears for the bloodshed that is going to follow, and it WILL play in Peoria.
Mainly, because, along with the “lookit; they’re ALL fighting”, will come the creating of that Shia crescent that bushCo has been warning about. You know, the one they have singlehandedly created. And which is going to do more to empower Iran than anything they, themselves, could have done.
Hard to say what the pump-price yardstick will look like, when we leave, but somehow, I don’t think us with our corporate tails between our legs, is going to help with that.
Of course, it couldn’t happen to a nicer “dog”.
I’ve been looking forward to $4 a gallon for a while now, to de-incentive the SUV-Panzer afficinados. I think the pullout from Iraq will do that. It just needs to go on the “mission accomplished” GOP bartab. :o)
I insist, since the repubs pulled the trigger to get us in, they should have to pull it, to get us out. And that little equation, which, I promise you, Pelosi and company have firmly in mind, will play in Peoria, too.
Jillian, here are our seats. Got the popcorn?
As ever, steady as she goes, Cap’n Pelosi. :o)
Praedor; you are talking (if it’s true, and I’m not sure about that) about legislative niceties.
I’m talking about something more real:
Which is, that IF the democrats pull the funding at this point, the republicans will hammer them for it. And if it actually forces troop withdrawals, then, as I’ve been saying, and so many people have been ignoring, what follows in Iraq will be on their bartab.
If you think that’s good, then let’s talk about it.
stephen
I remember, there is a print of one hanging in my bathroom-in a really flattering frame-don’t know the name of it-a mother and two daughters by a pool…….one of my favorite paintings. And the link from way back when, led to information about the painting Lady of Shallot and artists related artistically to him. I’m brain dead on names right now for some reason. Know his name, nope, drawing a blank, oh well, probably nervous posting on this already full thread, don’t want to crash servers…….hope it goes through…….ha…….take care and thanks for your many links.
No, that was a war for survival.
Peace came afterwards.
Badwater @ 202
Actually, IIRC, it was a draft resolution that the Iraqi parliament had not yet voted on.
Bob in HI
“So, like so many parents when they threaten to “give you something to cry about”, let the Dems give W something to throw a temper tantrum over, just like taking a favored belonging away from a spoiled brat
Zero Out the Executive Branch Funding At The First Available Opportunity”
Wonderful idea. The only problem with it is that it takes political courage on the part of the Congressional Democrats to pull it off.
ThatSinger @ 11
Splendid idea. I shall start today. Everyone else, Permission to do the same.
*sigh*
I love KO. I love him.
what is great about Olbermann’s blast is that he proves progressives aren’t pro-democrat, they’re pro-principle. Something politicians on both side of the aisle know next to nothing about.
.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 9
It would also be a good vote for us to look at, so we’ll get an idea of which Dems to oppose in primaries.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 17
He’s experienced and over the next few months we should keep an eye on how he handles himself. It’s when they’re under pressure that you really can find out important things.
It never hurts to have more great candidates so the competition between them gives us the most chance of finding just the right one.
Mauimom @ 57
They don’t like risk. They just want to kick the can down the road until the public is more in favor of walking away from Iraq and then they can “lead” the way.
PLovering @ 140
Time for a windfall war-profits tax?
A large part of the Demo-rat Party seems to have signed a collective suicide pact. They now just have to decide what time to jump out of the window together.
Only 14 Senators voted against the war funding! In the First Gulf War, the vote on war authorization was much closer, 52-47 I believe, and that was only after an orchestrated propaganda campaign of lies by the Bush Sr. regime. Lies such as babies being thrown from incubators.
Several Senators afterwards said they would have voted against authorization if they had known the truth. But now the war opponents have dropped from 47 to 14, and they have all the information they need. Disgusting.
The Senate seems to be a majority of psychopathic Rethuglicans and roll-over wimp Dems.