Nothing like coming back from vacation, catching up on the news, and feeling disgusted. As Digby says:
Damned if we might be seeing the same thing unfold all over again. I accept that the supplemental funding bill will pass as is. And I accept that there will be some faithless Dems who will cross over and give Bush his "bipartisan" cover. Bush is determined to continue with this debacle and that still scares pols from conservative districts and states. (I won't even go into the marshamallows who call themselves Republican "moderates" in more liberal districts, but I'm looking forward to helping the Dems defeat them.) But I never in a million years thought that we would re-run 2004 again, and the prospect of having to watch our candidates do verbal gymnastics explaining why they didn't vote for the one thing that could have ended the war — de-funding — is almost incomprehensible. Every single day the Republicans are on television trash talking the Dems, saying, "if you are so against this war why won't you use the power o' the purse!" Here we have an opportunity for the presidential candidates to take a free shot and shut down this line of argument right now — and they aren't jumping at the chance.
I criticized Hillary earlier, but it isn't just her. Obama also said he needed to "read the legislation" first. Biden said he's voting for it. I don't know about Richardson — his web-site says nothing specifically about it although he is in favor of "de-authorizing" the war. To their credit, Dodd said he wouldn't, Kucinich certainly won't and Edwards gave a speech today challenging the very concept of the GWOT and said he wouldn't vote for it if he were in the Senate. It's our two front-runners who inexplicably need to think about it.
This seems like a no-brainer to me. In fact, it's so obvious that I foolishly assumed it had been part of the calculation in making the deal — the silver lining was that it would allow the presidential candidates to come out clearly and decisively against the war without actually having to fight about it all summer. Maybe I don't understand politics. But I would swear that this war and the president who insists on escalating it are extremely unpopular and that anyone who wants to lead the nation would be looking for ways to win a majority of votes. Silly me.
As Joan Walsh at Salon further explains (via a link from Atrios):
I was trying to live with Michael Tomasky's analysis in the Guardian today. I wanted to agree with it; it's smart. Tomasky focuses on the 61 House Democrats holding seats Bush won in 2004, many still considered vulnerable to a Republican knockoff. He argues that, with narrow majorities in the House and Senate, the Democrats don't have the votes to cut off funding for the war, and that at any rate, "Iraq is Bush's war and Bush's failure." I do think there are political risks to continuing to attach timelines for withdrawal to the funding bill. But as I've said before, there are also enormous political risks to going along with the president simply because, well, um, he probably has the votes anyway — and who wants to seem soft on defense? This was, of course, the stirring rationale that led many Democrats to vote to authorize the use of military force in Iraq in October 2002 — a vote they now regret….I agree with Tomasky that this isn't the Democrats' last shot at the war. By the time the president has to come back for more funding at the end of September, the prognosis for "victory" in Iraq is likely to be grimmer than it is now, and perhaps more Republicans will join Democrats in trying to get aggressive about bringing the troops home. Far more than Democrats, I blame the Republicans who've been pretending to talk tough on the war — those 14 House members who bragged about their sit-down with Bush a few weeks ago; so-called moderate (more accurately, vulnerable) senators like Susan Collins and Norm Coleman — but refuse to back their antiwar talk with votes. While cowardly antiwar Republicans confide they're giving the president until September, more American soldiers are dying. This has been the bloodiest six-month period since the war began. If I had a child fighting in Iraq — and like the vast majority of the American media and political elite, I don't — I'd be furious that Democratic leaders were trying to bill their cave-in to the president as a victory.
Let's be honest: not having the votes and making a tactical decision on which to pivot, while not so palatable, at least has some promise of a long-term thought process with the potential for strategy and maneuvers in the future. Sometimes pragmatic realities have to take precedence when you have nothing else on which to springboard — a give here may mean a gain later there. But don't you dare try to portray this as anything like a victory. We are not dumb, and we refuse to be your rubber stamps. As Digby says: "They really shouldn't try to spin this. If they have to lose, they could at least do it with some dignity."
For my part, I'm just altogether disgusted. And am having trouble thinking rationally about this beyond "arrrrrrggggghhhhh." So, I'm going to take a page from the Edwards' campaign book and find some way to do something for our troops and their families, who continue to put their futures on the line for George Bush's ego, as I keep trying to push some effort forward to bring them home. I cannot come up with anything else that makes sense at the moment — and I need to find something proactive to do because I refuse to just walk away.
In the alternative, maybe I'll take a page from MoveOn.org's book and print off a bunch of spines (PDF) and send them out to all the elected folks who need one. Frankly, that sounds immensely satisfying at the moment on a personal level. In fact, since it is the Memorial Day recess coming up shortly, if any of you get a face to face moment with your elected officials, feel free to talk with them about your feelings on this matter — I'm certain that you have a few well-considered thoughts that you would enjoy sharing at the moment. I know I do.
As selise noted below, the House debate on the Iraq bill is going on right now on C-Span1. I expect some procedural maneuvers on this today, from both sides of the aisle. If you have a moment, please use it to call your elected representative and tell them that you want no procedural machinations — you want a vote, on the record and no maneuvering to give themselves cover for the vote on this. Period. Please share your thoughts on this in the comments, as I do not have it in me to liveblog this today.
(Huge H/T to twolf1 for finding this YouTube for me. It pretty much sums up how I'm feeling at the moment about the whole, disgusting farce with the attempted kabuki on victory spin. Pitiful.)
UPDATE: I meant to include a link to this above. Crooks and Liars has the clip from Olbermann's special comment last night. His palpable disgust pretty much mirrors what I'm feeling at the moment.



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I’m disgusted too. And Zed.
David Sirota has a piece at Smirking Chimp showing how the leadership is going to help members take cover behind a rules vote that won’t show up as a vote on the funding bill.
I’m watching c-span now and there’s a debate going on (well, not really) but there hasn’t been any vote yet.
I’m completely disgusted and I’ve called numerous congress people to let them know; the same ones I called yesterday to praise their actions with Goodling, I called to day to let them know that if their member has any intention to run for national office, this vote will forever color my vote for them.
How do you ask someone to be the last person to die for political maneuvering and vote counting?
Great post – I’m feeling quite disgusted, and I’m sure many others are as well.
This was was wrong before it started, and it’s just as immoral and illegal today.
Waging more war will not bring peace, and killing more people won’t save people from being killed. It’s disgusting – to use the word again.
The time to end the war is now.
Some further thoughts:
“Top-Ten Reasons to Get out of Iraq. Now!” – click here
Not to mention this contrived press conference with the MSM stenographers out in force this morning.
I called everybody. I’m filing for dual citizenship in the EU.
Stop Fascism now. No compromise: vote NO on the supplemental and –while we’re being constructive– throw the crime syndicate out of the doj!
Bush just said that there is an on going investigation at justice, and that wrongdoers will be brought to justice (my words).
He is SO full of shit… what investigation and when will it be completed (after he leaves office)….
No follow up question for the Prez on Gonzo
In the immortal words of Elvis Costello:
“Well I used to be disgusted
Now I try to be amused”
Unfortunately, it isn’t working; the disgust just seems paramount right now…
I just finished reading Digby and here it is again. Great stuff.
Wordsmith @ 5
just once, I wish they’d actually PRESS him on something.
we need a national No-Confidence vote on the White House and on Congress. They can’t focus on doing what is right even when it is well past being time to have done it, because because THEIR job two years from now is more important than the hundred or so people who will die today.
While I’m very frustrated, I’m trying to be optimisitic. We’ve made significant progress in just a few months, whereas the Republicans have controlled our legislative branch for over a decade. Have no doubt – I want this war to end quickly, before another soldier or civilian dies. At least we are far closer to ending this war than we were six months ago. Our country is pushing for change.
While I have a hard time comprehending the political realities that would force this bill to the table now, I am comforted to know that thousands of us are nagging the heck out of our members of Congress, that more of us are coming together to demand that this madness must end soon.
I like Edwards suggestion, too. We need to do more for the people putting their families on the line.
At this point, I have come to doubt that any of the credible Democratic presidential candidates can be relied upon to end the occupation. They’ve all got different formulas, but all of those formulas are consistent with a lengthy occupation.
The entire world has gone mad. At least that is how it often looks on mornings like this.
There is an old adage, that in a democracy you get the leaders you deserve. This goes beyond political party and speaks to character–as I am old enough to remember Republican Senators and Reps with whom I did not agree and did not vote for, but had a great deal of respect for as human beings (Senator Stafford of Vermont, being an example).
What we saw yesterday at the Conyers hearing is an example of how low the bar has fallen for our elected reps. Yes, mostly republicans, but some Dems as well (who should’ve had the strength of character to pass along their questioning time to better prepared and qualified colleagues).
Thankfully, there is hope. I am very impressed by Debbie Wasserman-Schultz (sp?)–she showed a great deal of backbone when she questioned Gonzo a couple of weeks ago, and did the right and smart thing by turning her time over to Davis.
Until there are more elected members of congress who have the strength of character to put aside petty political ambitions for the sake of the country, then we will be mired. Republicans are good at putting aside immediate interests for the sake of the party–which provides them with discipline (they are the bullies and the bullied all at the same time). But the Dems need to raise the bar on this one.
Unbelievable!!!
Drier is complaining because the House members didn’t get a full 24 hours to read a resolution before voting on it.
There was no complaint when the USA PATRIOT act was shoved down everyone’s throat.
clichy @ 2
I sure could use an explanation of Sirotas piece.
and what do I say to a Freshman Congress Critter who jusy loves Bush and all?
Can’t we just have a coup….
More and more, I think Norseflamethrower
is on target…
Maybe it will take a revolution to weed out the lies and deception of this admin…
orcatjf @ 11
how would something like that come to be? because it is We the People who are going to have to rid ourselves of this corrupted government.
Elliott @ 10
I think you don’t like the answers. He’s quoting the enemy as to what they want to do to US. Not just me or him. But to you too. Do you really think OBL differentiates us because you belong to FDL and I don’t? I think not. The enemy wants to destroy us. They are OBL’s words about what they want to do to ALL of us. We ought to be listening carefully to what they say. Just like Hitler’s Mein Kampf.
Thanks, Christy.
That Olbermann clip is amazing. I’m getting the codes from Amato and putting up later today (one of the many benefits of sharing servers with C&L). Everyone should see it.
The last I heard (yesterday morning) Nancy Pelosi said she would not vote for this piece of shit. So I am going to remind everyone to be discriminating about assigning blame. I’m as pessimistic as they get; I think the country is unsalvageable and hardly a “luz qui alumbra”. But I’m going to preemptively defend Pelosi: She took on the lobby-that-shall-not-be-named within her own party from the get-go, first getting rid of Jane Harman, then trying to replace Hoyer with Murtha, then going to Syria. So let her at least be a consolation, and offer her some encouragement.
That said, temper your enthusiasm for Edwards if you have any. He’s a politician, and he’s attuned enough to the public to change his position on the war, when he’s no longer in the Senate, conveniently. I’ll vote for a politician who I think might represent my interests, but Edwards will never be a statesman, and he’s too much of a weakling to even be a good politician. Go find that Shrum interview for an indication of what a handwringing coward he was in voting for the war.
christy – you might have been happier to have been able to extend your vacation by a week (and get to miss all this). :(
david sirota has a run down on the procedural issues (which i admit i don’t understand). he says:
given that my rep, jim mcgovern, is on the rules committee – i’d really like to understand the procedural maneuvers.
Yesterday I ordered postcards with an image of flag-covered coffins on them. I should get them by D-Day.
I plan on sending one to my Rep and Senators every time the death toll rises in Iraq.
On each card I will write “These soldiers died because you gave Bush a blank check. I’m holding you personally responsible for the death every one of them.”
Memorial Day
Freeway Blogger ( http://www.freewayblogger.com/ )
Impeach Now – Stop The War – American Flag
STAND OR FALL, JOIN THE MOVEMENT
Elliott @ 10
Well, David Gregory did ask him about trotting out two-year-old intelligence yesterday on Al-Qaeda and whether the president thinks he’s still credible…that’s an improvement.
Bush’s answer: generic bullshit and fearfearfear and – some more fearfearfear. But the question wasn’t bad.
IMHO, neither the Democrats nor the Republicans give a lick about their constituents. It’s all about the power and the money; the power that they stand to lose if they make policy decisions that are disagreeable to the businesses that bestow upon them the $ that keeps them in office and the money they stand to gain by “playing ball”.
Can’t upset their own personal applecarts, the American people are just too damned beneath their towers of priveledge to matter.
Yes, I’m pissed at this most recent “capitulation”. Cowards and sellouts!
Olberman’s right – there’s no way the Dems can spin this without looking like idiots.
From a soldier
http://thinkprogress.org/
jayackroyd @ 13
It is the end of the Vietnam war all over again. I was just a teenager, but I remember all the weird contortions gov’t went through pretending to end the war. It is even worse this time because the political and cultural ground has shifted so.
Bay State Librul @ 7
Did you notice he’s now calling it a “press avail”?
Answer to ? on why no obl:
“Why is he at large? Because we haven’t gotten him yet.” With answers like that, who needs questions (or brains).
well, come september the dems might say “we gave him everything he wanted. really everything. and he still fu**ed up.” it’s a chance to stop the blame game.
Oh my. I just read the Sirota piece. My optimism is getting squashed by a sense of total disgust.
Read it for a very good explanation of what MAY happen – how word on the street is that several Democratic party leaders are doing a nifty parliamentary move to basically hide the voting record on the Bush Enablement Bill:
WorkingAssets blogpost by Sirota (he will update it here as the situation unfolds)
Lee at 19 — And we outsourced the search for OBL to Pakistan, and give them a billion dollars of our money a year with no strings attached so that they spend it without doing a goddamn thing to find him for what exactly? Jeebus, Bush mouths words he doesn’t actually mean other than to stoke the fear fires, and his actions speak volumes in what they are NOT doing. And who is being asked to not do it.
Spinning a loss as a “victory” is like an alcoholic denying that being highly intoxicated just might have had something to do with totaling his car. You can only fix a problem when you admit that you have one. If we admit we don’t have the votes to end this war now (if in fact that is the case) it would be easier to start working on building a working Congressional majority to accomplish just that.
But oh! We don’t have to do that! We “won!” When will these jokers ever learn?
In 1964 the conservatives didn’t pretend that they “won.” They went out and organized and built institutions for the long term until they took over the country. Since then they have fought tooth and nail to hold every ounce of power they took. We will have to do the same if we expect to prevail, and we will need clear eyes while we are at it.
“If I had a child fighting in Iraq — and like the vast majority of the American media and political elite, I don’t — I’d be furious that Democratic leaders were trying to bill their cave-in to the president as a victory.”
Furious? No. That doesn’t even come close to what I’d be feeling. And, I have a 20-year old son — same age as the dead, missing soldier they dragged out of the Euphrates. But, he’s in college. Thank goodness. We’ve already made plans to flee, should the draft ever come back.
Furious? Is that what you’d call Casey Sheehan’s mom? I think it takes more than just anger to fight the government like Cindy is.
Sorry for my anger this am. It’s just that I’d be furious doesn’t even start to cover it.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 33
Christy –
I don’t agree with the MSNBC spin on this – that the money was supposed to be used to hunt for OBL. It’s really nothing more than a payoff to keep Musharraf from being fragged by his own people. The “hunt” really plays no part in this.
Brisingamen @ 23
Where did you get these? I want some. That’s a great idea.
I just called and spoke with Congressman Boswell’s office and expressed my sentiments about voting no on the Iraq funding. I know as a Veteran Boswell does not want to appear as not “supporting our troops”.
Somehow we need to start framing this in the narrative that Gen. Batiste has indicated. By continuing to fund this war, we are hurting our armed forces. The Bush policies are breaking our military. By giving bus his money he is allowed to do more harm. Us Dems have not been clear on this message.
I support Edwards and Dodd’s position. Ironically, our two “Front Runners” base consist of a majority of folks who want to de-fund the war and get out now. How can this be? I predict some major defections from their camps if they allow the war to be continued without accountability. IMO. Thanks for the excellent post Christy.
Tom at 36 — re-read what I said in my comment. There is a reason that there are “no strings attached.” But as we don’t know what it is, because the Bush Administration wouldn’t own up to paying “prop up the military government” money to Musharraf, I’m going on what we publicly know at the moment. And that is that there are “no strings attached, spend it as you like.”
Can we really make the assumption that the troops want us to bring them home? I don’t think we can. At least not in a majority sense.
Instead, I see it as a policy issue and a purse issue, both of which we *do* have majority control of.
Brisingamen @23, maybe that’s what we need. Flood the mailboxes of Congress with postcards of coffins because THAT is what THEY voted for!
Not to beat a dead horse or anything but I really wish one of the lawyers who frequent FDL would pop in and take a look at this science hearing — what is refreshing is that the Republican ranking member (sensenbrenner) seems to be pretty much as disgusted the the Democratic chair. Plus I’d like to get a snese for how much trouble the NASA general counsel might be in here…
What do we have to DO to get people in congress to represent US instead of themselves and their own political aspirations? Wot a total bunch of losers!!
also, while we’re hemming and hawing over iraq, bush is authorizing covert action against IRAN!! where is this in the news???
from the house floor – debate on iraq is tabled (for how long? maybe only an hour?) and now they’re considering lobbying reform.
am i supposed to not understand what’s happening today?
here’s today’s house floor schedule
here’s the house rules for H.RES. 438
here’s H.RES. 438 (Provides for consideration of the Senate amendment to H.R. 2206.)
It appears that the usual suspects
DINOsare selling us down the river again, to wit:On War Funds, Democrats Saw No Option but to Cede Ground to BushAnd which of those Democrats saw “no option” but to cave in again to Junya, he of 28% JAR and heading south?
Why it’s those good ol’ “Corporatists” whose only constituency is MONEY!.
To wit (or perhaps witless): Rahm Emanuel, Steny Hoyer, and our favorite moneybags sellout, Ellen Tauscher.
Who knew craveness was a
Democrat’sDINO’s path to party leadership?Why, we did, doncha know?
Christy Hardin Smith @ 33
Musharref–not the fanatic Muslims in Pakistan, but Musharref–has been hanging on allowing our agents to do the best they can in that wild country, so he Musharref needs money to help in his fight against fanatic Islam. Musharref is the best friend we’ve had for years in that country, even though he’s under threat. He needed that money to keep his own military in line. If ANYONE means what he says it’s George W. Bush. He’s the Original True Believer which is why he doesn’t do what the Polls want him to do. That WOULD BE the easy thing to do. He believes what he says regardless of public opinion.
Gunga at 40 — Have you spent any time talking with soldiers who have served in Iraq and/or their families? I sure as hell have. And I haven’t heard a helluva lot of “please, send me back…frequently” other than the fact that all of those folks are amazingly dedicated to the others in their units and are committed to being part of their team, whatever sacrifice that may require, because that is what soldiers do — they don’t leave their borthers and sisters hanging. And they cannot speak up publicly about how much shit they are having to deal with because of the UCMJ. So either we stand up for them, or we are as guilty of abandoning them to George Bush’s failures as he is himself.
Brisingamen @ 23
great idea!
Soldiers are made to fight.
In a democracy they are put under civilian rule because given the chance, soldiers generally choose to do what they are trained to do.
The notion that a nation such as ours leaves the decisions about how long a war should last or whether to go to war in the first place up to the military is really foolish.
-GSD
snowbird42 @ 28
I just read this as well. Highly recommend.
Maybe if everyone in Congress had to read it, we’d have a better chance at stopping this madness right now. Today. No more death. No more ruining these young kids lives for what we know to be lies.
More taxation without representation, and from our own country. Time for a citizen army.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 47
I now live in Jacksonville, not far from the NAS base here. I find that most soldiers I speak to ARE gung ho and do want to volunteer. I know several Navy guys who want to knock the bejessus out of Iran and are frustrated that the politicians in Washington are stopping them from doing what they know they could do. It doesn’t just cut one way…
Never mind — it just ended.
Bay State Librul @ 17
That’s exactly what it will take. And exactly what will never happen again in the US.
I sympathize with Norske. I admire his passion and unrelenting truth-telling. He’s rough, no doubt about it (that’s part of his charm…LOL), but accurate. He’s a student of history, yet he has foresight. We are a different country/society now though. The thought of revolution is smothered by thoughts forever war, mini-vans, soccer games, botox, Am Idol, viagra, the “mall” and that which has paralyzed us most of all, that which is the biggest lie ever perpetrated against this country’s citizens, the GWOT.
LibertyLee @ 19
Pluuuuse!!! You are this scared of a man who lives in a cave somewhere in the Pakistani mountains who totes a dialysis machine? Read the statement of why the Intelligence report was declassified – All of the players were dead or captured. Your fear mongering isn’t going to work anymore.
Kucinich on floor..could not link the article
Benchmark Provision Proves War-Oil Connection, Kucinich Says
By Nathan Burchfiel
CNSNews.com Staff Writer
May 24, 2007
(CNSNews.com) – Anti-war Congressman Dennis Kucinich took to the House floor Wednesday to try to block legislation that would establish benchmarks for progress in the Iraq war, alleging that the measure hides the Bush administration’s real motive – to “steal the oil resources of Iraq.”
The supplemental military funding bill under consideration contains numerous benchmarks for progress in Iraq, including one for President Bush to report on whether the Iraqi government enacts “a broadly accepted hydro-carbon law that equitably shares oil revenues among all Iraqis.”
[Mod Note; Edited by Mod for length. To help keep the FDL servers running smoothly and to avoid any copyright issues, please do not post entire articles. Here’s the link: Benchmark Provision Proves War-Oil Connection, Kucinich Says. Thank you. ]
Postcards are a nice idea, but you need to remember that snail mail takes forever to get to Congress because it has to be screened. (I suspect the reason no longer has anything to do with the anthrax threat.)
Fax your protests instead. I’ve prepared one of my own to send through my eFax account. You could take one of the MoveOn PDF’s, scan or convert into a JPG and do the same thing, but I want to send this on my own, not part of MoveOn’s effort.
And be sure to fax to the closes district office, too, as they will contact the DC office and let them know what you’re thinking. You can find your district office through Congress.org using your zip code.
And if you have an email address for your rep, so much the better.
Christy, and all;
I have an idea, I am going to post it on Kos too, later today. What we need to do is put pressure on not only our Dems, but the Republicans that we will need in order to make any de-funding stick.
So, here is the idea. We get a rally together in Atalanta. Deep in the South we get a rally to support the troops by bringing them home rally. We ask former President Carter to speak.
This would show that there is support for ending the war in the redest of states.
So Firedogs, what do you think?
Wordsmith @ 37
What a great idea. I want some too.
Mods: crap! I did it again! I typed the forbidden words. Will you please fix for me? Thanks and…sorry.
Three words: Publically-funded campaigns. Can that work to remove the deadly grip money and greed have over the government, and ultimately, over the very lives of soldiers and civilians?
how many ways can we show our disgust? we voted in numbers to send a message to DC that we wanted change and an end to perpetual war yet dems still give cover to bushco!! i am sooooooo angry!! i knew reid was going to be a pushover! and for once will dems make a statement and MEAN!! its just awful – the repugs are just laughing at the ineffective dems and mocking them at every turn!!
clichy @ 15
And then the White House changed it after passage. It still gets me very steamed that this happened, was hardly commented upon, and was allowed to stand. Every one of those unconfirmed USAs should be recalled.
Lee@19: Who exactly is “the enemy?”
It’s been 5-1/2 years since 9/11. Bush promised THEN to hunt down “those who attacked us.” Hasn’t happened. Where’s Bin Laded? “He’s hiding” Bush said this morning. Greaattt….
And don’t drag Hitler into this – it’s not relevant.
IrishJim @54: If you don’t believe that a man in the mountains in Wazirstan can direct the terrorists in Iraq, you weren’t listening during 9/11. They are out there, his words give direction and the enemy is waiting. You can pretend they’re not out there, but that won’t stop the next 9/11. The President’s actions will.
AJ @ 42
Is it on CSPAN?
speaking of coffins, check out Tom Toles today; says it all.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/….._main.html
Dems fucked this thing up.
Two key things bug me the most:
1) They brayed as if they were gonna stand up to the Clusterfuckers and end the war now. Much better to have kept expectations realistic from the beginning so that the truth isn’t so jarring. They now look like they ran away from a fight–just piss poor planning as near as I can see. I can accept it if it’s just a bit too early to go to war- but don’t pull a gun unless you intend to use it. Ya look like a fuckin idiot wavin the thing around and then runnin away.. Don’t EVER do that again!!
2) The bullshit about putting in “benchmarks” and then making them optional makes you look like an ass lickin idiot. Take that out- it’s demeaning- makes ya look like you took a wooden nickle- don’t agree to play the fool. It’s ABSURD. You will be laughed out of Washington- “I made him take that optional benchmark thing”.
If yer gonna play macho- then ya damn well better learn how the game is played- and how it’s scored- right now they are hapless.
Good afternoon Christy!
Not late to the Lake today.
Just late to de-lurk.
I just used your wonderful “Teeny Question” screed as a teaser to introduce 2 new sets of folks to this wonderful Lake.
Bravo! I’m so proud to bring in more folk who I know will enjoy the waters here.
You’re quite simply the BEST. ;->
LLEE @ 46
Hitler was a true believer too. Based on your logic you would support Hitler because he is a true believer. Hmmmm.
on a more hopeful note… from yesterday – Senator John Edwards Addresses the Council on Foreign Relations
this is the best i’ve heard from edwards on foreign policy so far… sounds pretty good to me.
brendan at 21 — If you take anything that Shrum says about anyone without a heaping helping of large grains of salt, then you are asking for trouble. Thinking that an Edwards campaign idea is a good one is wholly different from an candidate endorsement — read more closely before trying to toss a tosser like Shrum into the pond as credible evidence of anything other than his own self-interest in promoting Bob Shrum.
Rayne @ 57
If I’m not mistaken, many Congressmen don’t accept snail mail, period.
rw at 65 — That is exactly what has me most pissed about this. If you are going to act like you will fight, then go all the way to the mattresses with it. Otherwise, you stink of failure and cowardice for backing down — and I didn’t work my ass off last year to get these people into the majority for them to cave at the first round of “Boo” from this fucking White House. Empty posturing pisses me off.
B R E A K I N G — new witness at
june 5, 2007 senate judiciary
hearing! — one TODD GRAVES!
i just got off the phone with the
director of communications for sen.
patrick leahy’s judiciary committee,
and — though not yet on the website
committtee agenda — todd graves will
also appear as a witness on june 5, 2007.
a double-header! woo hoo!
schlozman v. graves – what a wonderful
contrast that should offer — in ethics, style and substance. . .
buckle up for june 5!
It’s called a “defense mechanism“.
And try talking to VETS for a change who served several tours, instead of guys who are still mentally required to rationalize what they are doing in order to maintain some sense of normalcy.
I have — and when they’re not too PTSD’d to talk about it, they’d say exactly the opposite of the rah-rah-chickenhawk stuff you’re spouting. Why aren’t you over there, anyhow?
yes, it will be grimmer……and how many more will have died??
IMO it is blasphemous to look forward to our next “shot” while lives continue to be lost ALL THE F*****G time.
Christy, I downloaded Olbermann’s commentary, and the sound is all wonky. I guess I need to send John an e-mail.
Um, the first one happened on this President’s watch. We’ve already seen how well he can stop terrorist attacks, thank you very much.
I hope they’re paying you by the comment.
If your congresscritters haven’t come out in opposition to this capitulation, call them and tell that you’d like to “support” them the same way they “support our troops” — by sending them to Iraq and leaving them to rot.
–MarkusQ
Speaking of Shrum & his, um, ilk…
Is it just me, or are MSM programs more & more pasting a liberal label on such, & calling it fair discussion tw left & right?
Several truly liberal, excellent spokespersons simply have vanished, and are being replaced by these dunderblusts. what gives?! Are they just disgusted & disillusioned, banned, passed over easily because rover said to???
Except for Jon & Keith, there’s… NOone(!)
rwcole @ 66
It seems to me that they did exactly what they wanted to do–talked some talk, and then not walk the walk. Trying to have it both ways. Against the war, but for the troops.
We have to start thinking about primaries. First, get some more Webbs and Feingolds into the Senate R seats, and then start targeting Blue Dogs and coward DINOs.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 71
No doubt he was self-promoting, but he was also trying to mitigate the disgraceful — and, more relevantly here — politically suicidal position Edwards took, portraying him as “anguished” about the decision, and inclined to vote against the war.
Got a better excuse for Edwards? Maybe he should start another website: http://www.supportthetroopsdontstartw…..place.com.
Wordsmith @ 66 — it was a webcast from the House Science and Technology committee — and it was everything I wish yesterday’s Goodling hearing had been. No grandstanding … no republicans talking about fishing expeditions or making excuses — in fact Sensenbrenner asked one of the toughest questions that really boxed in the NASA general counsel. It just ended but they ended with a mention of next steps…
Thanks for the heads-up nolo 73. Could use some good news…
Spiritcatcher @ 31
You say that like they haven’t had chances before.
nolo @ 75
Yay!!! For those who were whining all morning yesterday…sometimes it does take a while to sort out years and years of BS. As many did point out also yesterday…patience is a virtue.
The Bush Dictatorship is based on lies and deception. “National Security” is used, or abused to conceal crimes and punish critics. Even our soldiers know the truth, but the Corporate Journalists also refuse to tell the truth.
http://waynemadsenreport.com/
Gnome de Plume @ 29
The Light at the Tunnel. I was listening to the transistor radio out front, and I thought “good!” General Westmoreland is seeing the end of the war coming. HA! that was 1968. I’m not so naive now.
MarkusQ @ 79
that is what I think every time I see one of those suited asses pontificating on TV…..how I’d LOVE to see them all in Baghdad.
These are articles at Breaking News at Jewish Telegraphic Agency JTA they would not link
Kucinich demonstrates chutzpah once again says that the U.S. should fund the Democratically elected Hamas and the Palestinian Authority instead of undermining them. Kucinich is a brave man!
** The United States should fund the Hamas-led Palestinian Authority, Democratic presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich said.
**Israel threatened the top leader of Hamas.
brendan @ 72
Call your Congressman’s closest district office and ask, then.
I know that my Senators get snail mail, and I know that most Representatives from this state do, too (I have not checked them all). I think many citizens would be pissed off to learn they had no way to contact Congress save for the internet or phone.
Good post title, Christy. Disgusted, or disgusting, also describes Wednesday’s Iraq police blotter via McClatchy. It’s hard to keep in mind sometimes that this is for one day only:
Roundup of Daily Violence 5/23/07
Christy Hardin Smith @ 47
Some of the NGs that came back from this latest tour were crying on the tarmac they were so damned relieved to be home. I’m not dissing the NG, but our NG here especially are used to help preserve our communities! Especially when there’s a crisis – specifically forest fires, floods, and such.
Oh – and the state average here is 3.61 for gas. I’ve taken the car keys away from the cats. No more cruisin’ for them.
brendan @ 73
hi, brendan, how about delivering them to the local office your representative has?
D. Moore @ 87
Maybe there is still hope for truth and justice!
disgust, small-time local version:
Willie Mays hosting Condi Rice at last night’s SF Giants game.
whatever. lose the team jacket, lady.
Adie @ 85
well — i’ll re-lurk, so as not
to disrupt the flow of the dem’s latest
spine-optional-tactics on iraq. . .
. . .but the possibility that schlozman will
lie his face off — then graves will
blast him out of the water for it — and,
all in one day! wow. . .
delicious!
Redd–Yep- I feel exactly as you put it.
This is important. Dems are now partners in running the country. They can’t afford to act as if this is a high school civics project. They have staff- they need to use it. This whole thing should have been war gamed and scenarioed down the the fine points. The White House didn’t do a damned thing that shouldn’t have been predicted- they played to form. If ya end up being caught with you pants down by the most likely scenario- you don’t know how to play yet.
Agh. Have at ‘em, gang. FIGHT. Do not concede an inch.
In the mean time I have to go and do battle in the never-ending war on laundry.
jayackroyd @ 80
webb voted against reid feingold. :(
here’s the roll call vote.
Bay State Librul @ 17
We already had a coup, in 2000 and repeated in 2004. All built on the takeover of both parties that surfaced following ww2.
More coups is not the answer.
I thought “palpable disgust” was only for trolls?
Bush always touts “turning points and progress” in his failed wars, Democratic Party loyalists are the same way, telling people who want to put Peace above Party “well they caved this time, but next time will be different…”
yeah right.
If they are faced with a viable third party, rather second party, then they might act differently…
These people live in an echo chamber where their positions are lauded as
serious, sensible and centrist.
Osama Bin Laden also said that he wants to bankrupt the US by making America run around the planet, blowing up shit and killing lots of Arabs and Muslims and making lots more enemies for the US.
Do you believe him?
Do you think that Bush should do what Bin Laden wants?
I mean you want us to listen to Bin Laden, right?
Bin Laden said that he is not attacking America for “our freedoms” like Bush claims. He said if that were the case he’d be blowing-up freedom loving Switzerland.
Bush has used the legitimate threat of Bin Laden as a tool of domestic political hegemony and the American Idol nation follows right along like lemmings off of a cliff.
Bush is making certain that America will collapse. Damn certain.
-GSD
Christy, welcome back from vacation. Sorry you had to come back at the time this all was breaking.
When I read this it hit me just what sort of people are in Congress currently:
I’ve been wondering if the Founders took polls and did head counts before daring to write the Declaration of Independence and start the revolution? I wonder how they dared to submit the Declaration as a “binding” resolution? They must have been a reckess bunch of guys…
I think I need a short vacation from all this…
brendan — who was making excuses for Edwards? Jeebus, go back and READ what I wrote in the post and my comment. Nowhere am I making an excuse for Edwards. Sometimes the anger at a particular person so blinds people that their reading comprehension just goes “poof.” What I said was that Shrum is not to be trusted and that I, for one, don’t believe anything he ever says without it being backed up in quadruplicate. And I wasn’t going to let your comment making Shrum seem like he was a credible source for anything stand without calling it into question. Shrum is a political tool — and one might ask on whose payroll he resides at the moment other than MSNBCs? Because THAT is a question worth answering.
Your disdain for Edwards is clear — but, again, it was a policy objective that I thought was laudable here. You know, offering to help out a military family who needs some assistance with a plumbing problem when you have plumbing skills. Or giving a solider who just got back and is having PTSD issues a ride to his VA appointment because driving is impossible for him and the loudness of the city bus system brings him right back to his service in Iraq. Or offering to babysit some neighborhood kids of a soldier home on leave so the soldier and his/her spouse can have some time of their own to reconnect. You know, human decency as a means of helping out folks who have been stretched thin the last six years.
What problem you or anyone else could have with that is beyond me, regardless of whose website it comes from…but maybe that’s just me.
punaise @ 97
Willie! say it ain’t so
Rayne @ 92
my observation on this is that calling is the only effective means. email appears to sit in their inboxes for long (long long) times — like 6-12 months. And smail is equally delayed. If you want them to notice you, you have to call.
Rayne @ 90
I know some pooh-pooh the idea, but I’ve had considerable success with e-mail, & I’m surely better at crafting an e-mail than stammering out something half-way intelligent on the phone. I think, bottom line, it’s just plain important to contact them. But, yes, I too have little faith in the snail-mail approach. It’s gotta be frustrating for a lot of folk.
selise @ 22
This may already be explained by now . . . but if not:
There will be at least 3 votes, with the process designed to give everyone political cover:
1. A vote on a “rule” that defines the process.
2. A vote on supplemental funding with the non-binding benchmarks, but no timetable for withdrawal
3. A vote on another funding bill for non-Iraq appropriations — agriculture, pork, etc.
The key is the “rule” vote, because it basically say, if votes 2 and 3 pass separately, they get joined together without any further vote on the entire package.
So the likely sequence is,
A. Dems opposed to Iraq funding can vote for or against the “rule” – but it’s likely to pass, because everyone wants cover.
B. On the Iraq funding vote, anti-war Dems vote “no” but it’s likely to pass with Republicans and scared Dems. That gives the anti-war Dems cover with us, and gives the scared Dems cover because they voted to support the troops.
C. On the non-Iraq, pork part of the bill, the Dems vote yes, the Repubs vote no, but it passes; the dems get the domestic funding they want and the Republicans claim they voted against pork.
After this sequence, they’re done; the rule says, “both pieces were approved, and when that happens, the entire package is accepted and passed.” So anti-war dems claim they never voted for the war (thought they might in the vote on the Rule), and everyone else claims whatever they need to claim. It is a scheme for collective avoidance of responsibility and accountability.
Postcards don’t have to be screened – think about it, where would they put stuff on a postcard?
For the material (Thanks, Lori at ML!):
For images of flag-draped coffins:
http://www.thememoryhole.org/w…..tos/dover/
To order postcards:
http://www.vistaprint.com/vp/n…..ng=1061560
I’ll add that you should be able to find blank print-your-own postcards at your office supply place, if you want to do smaller print runs.
nolo @ 96
;->
Perhaps the Dems, especially the ones who’ve been in power a long time, are owned & controled by the same lobbiest’s and corporations that own the Repubs.
One good solution is PUBLICALLY FINANCED ELECTIONS.
As for health care, if we can’t go to a European system, perhaps we can consider heavier regulation, price-caps, etc.
GSD @ 103
I’ve got a five year old who often tells me what he’s going to do when he disagrees with what is planned. I listen, but it doesn’t mean that he has the power or capability to make it happen the way he thinks, and I don’t simply respond to his words. Listening is only part of the issue. Developing the correct response requires much more than simply hearing the words.
Personally, I think much that comes from Osama bin Laden is designed for Bush himself, and it boils down to “Please don’t throw me in that briar patch, B’rer Bush!
Why do dems, Obama and Hilary, Schumer, etc., roll over on this one?
1-word: A*P*C.
It aint ready for us to leave yet.
As far as I’m concerned, anyone who votes in favor of this bill has blood on their hands and will not get my vote. Imagine being in their position and being able to vote. Kind of a no brainer, isn’t it?
Yay, Christy — we are all LOL & everything at our house after that video. Thanks for the morning laughs!
My question for the Speaker: just wait until this weekend.
After you adjourn, or recess, and head home for Memorial Day, you (all 535 of you inside-the-Beltway hacks) will hear, see, and taste the pure unadulterated RAGE of an entire nation betrayed. Then you can go back, open all your exciting Recess Appointment Presents while Harry Reid sez “what, again??”
There won’t be another chance to end this war — no one will vote against the real DoD authorization going into an even-numbered year. This — this one single moment in time — this was our only opportunity, and our party leaders BLEW IT. Forget September; what’s the plan? Act tough and FOLD? Been there, done that: this great capitulation supplemental will be your legacy. The most short-lived change of control of the House of Representatives in history: 2007-2009.
Would Ned Lamont like to come live in Baghdad-by-the-Bay? Cuz we need a rich primary challenger, like, now.
Rayne @ 75
What kind of bullshit response is this? You’re completely misrepresenting the guy’s argument (Gunga Djinn at #40).
His point is simple, even if you don’t like it: wondering what “the troops” want is of secondary consideration to what must be done for the country. And I suspect he was getting at another point: claiming to speak for the troops is ultimately a kind of rhetorical trap, at least the way that pernicious phrase “Support the Troops” has been dinned into the public mind since the Gulf War. Democrats have become so enmeshed in that kind of talk they can no longer construct an argument for defunding the war. Look at some of the consequences today in Congress.
The Dems need to get scolded by us if they surrender to Bush on this. It will give Dems more spine for the next round. A wave is building that will sweep away the war and those that want to continue. The wave is not yet high enough. When we make that wave high enough those pols that are on board can ride with us but those that are entrenched will be washed away. Keep the faith. Keep the fight.
LibertyLee @ 65
Why should I believe that? He took no action to stop the first one.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 33
I’m just now beginning to understand FDR’s “the only thing we have to fear is fear itself”.
“I agree with Tomasky that this isn’t the Democrats’ last shot at the war. By the time the president has to come back for more funding at the end of September, the prognosis for “victory” in Iraq is likely to be grimmer than it is now, and perhaps more Republicans will join Democrats in trying to get aggressive about bringing the troops home.”
B U L L S H I T!!!!!! It will be grimmer but it will make no difference if it is. We will be given the same line by the liars in the White House oh we are makeing progress here but there is still much to do and blah blah blah. Oh and by the way I need 100 billion more to get this moving and if you don’t support me well then you will be Killing our Troops. THe dems a chumps and cowrads they need to stand up to the bully and make him understand he does not run the school yard any more COWARDS COWARDS! Who give a shit if they lose their job in the next election at least they will know they did the right thing!
scarecrow @ 111
Yep – all of ‘em Rs & Ds alike, have thought of every conceivable angle. Politics = smoke and mirrors *sigh*
Loo Hoo @ 117
but you’d have to have a brain to see that
Just heard that Jane will be on the third hour of Thom Hartman’s show in Air America today 11-12 PDT.
Elliott @ 89
Yea, I heard that out front of the bunker!
Peter, the point I was making is that Bush and his flunkies quote the Bin Laden tripe they like and ignore the parts that don’t fit their schemes.
Bush and Bin Laden were made for each other. Both immoral and wealthy children of privelege who are dead set on being right…No matter how many people they have to kill to prove their point.
-GSD
i couldn’t agree more completely.
thanks.
Has Webb done anything to stop this war?
Has Tester? McCaskill?
i’m at wits end – i have no ideas on how to get dems to act on the promises they made – i’ll just lurk and read comments til i calm down – and bushco held a presser ehhh – is the war over? oh hell nooooooooo – just an opportunity to grind dems noses once again!
lee5 @ 108
How do you know mail sits in their in box that long? I get emails back the same day in many cases; I may get written responses in a month or two if the message (email or fax) merited a fairly pro forma response.
Don’t assume they aren’t reading your messages. That’s a mistake. If it comes down to you and one other constituent who votes with the opposition, your message may be the only thing that sways them. Been there, done that, have actually talked with my Senator about this very example.
WRITE THEM AND FAX, EMAIL — OR CALL.
GSD @ 105
Hitler told us what he was going to do. He also thought he could bankrupt England and France and Russia. We need to destroy Islamic-Jihadism and Osama-ism (be it Sunni or Shi’ite) and use all the resources at our command to do so in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Syria and elsewhere.
raven @ 127
Ow! can’t imagine what if felt like hearing that Over There.
scarecrow @ 109
excellent explaination – thank you, thank you! now reading the rule even makes sense.
now i can progress from being confused to being pissed off.
brendan @ 118
I’m going to pretend you didn’t say this to me.
selise @ 99
Thanks.
We have a long way to go.
I give up. They all suck
Welcome to Firedoglake National Park.
Please do not feed the _ _ _ _ _ _
GSD @ 128
The Bin Laden family are, after all, Bush family cronies and long time business partners.
Raven @ 127
Someone needs to point out to Congress and Bushco that the light at the end of the tunnel is frequently an oncoming train.
It’s pretty obvious what’s gonna happen in september. Bush is gonna do the bait and switch game all over again. He’ll say that the “surge” strategy made a positive difference- but that we really need the “son of surge” ta put us over the top and that Patreus has come to this conclusion during his fine management of the Clusterfuck – er war.
The public will be more negative than now- but not much- we’re gettin down ta the bottom of the gooper barrel and the last dregs stick to the sides.
The congress will be a little more ready to move- but not much. A few goopers will be ready to throw in the towel and a few more dems- but no dramatic difference.
It’s still gonna be a bloody fight- and it’s gonna take some intelligent risk management.
Dems need to start NOW with the planning and vote counting. If they’re hopin it will all be easy come September- they’re runnin on hope not logic.
Stephen Beech @ 138
Republics thrive when its decided that there is no difference between the parties. After years under the Republic thumb, it is clearly the case that the parties are not the same.
Adie @ 110
I had to call Pelosi’s office to make my comment (fyi it was supportive for a NO vote on the funding bill- I didn’t know enough about the Rule bill to state a preference and they asked for a brief comment ala voice mail). You can’t send an email unless you are her constituent. Same thing for other officials that do not represent you. For Pelosi, google her name and choose the site which gives her phone # (or email if you live in her district). Marilyn
Rescued by the “End Cycle” alarm on the washer.
Phew. If only I could throw a few other things in the washer to straighten them out…
Ow! can’t imagine what if felt like hearing that Over There.
Seemed like just a trickle in the torrent of bullshit. . .still does.
“That all you got, George?”
~ Muhammad Ali
(Whispered into George Foreman’s ear in a late round clinch during the Rumble in the Jungle.)
our reps are coming home from DC next week. i for one, plan on showing up at mcgovern’s office (he of the ass-covering rules committee) next week to voice my displeasure. especially since mcgovern wants to be seen as anti-war (and i think he really is and wants to be)…
i’m hoping he votes against the rule… i’ll be watching!
LibertyLee @ 133
Sounds like you’re proposing genocide. Which is the ONLY wat to accomplish the task you’re setting. Why are you so un-American? What about the American ideals do you not understand?
So Dems are more afraid of wh criticism than the health & future of our country?
They are more afraid of wh house attack dogs than gaining voters who are ready for a change and the real possibility of losing base votes?
They are so afraid of drawing a line now they would rather wait until even lower approval ratings of this adm? How low do the approval ratings have to go before they find their spine? 20%? 10%? 5%?
LibertyLee @ 65
By your own logic then we should leave Iraq and go after the head of the monster in Wazirstan. Is that what you are saying? Why are we in Iraq if the “Puppet Master” is in the mountains of Wazirstan? If the president cannot find this one simple person, how can he be trusted to protect us? He has failed on a couple of occassions to protect the American public – 9/11 and Katrina. Not a good track record.
Christy, with all the hammering on Pelosi and the democrats for their not waving the magic wand, can you guys even consider what is going to happen, when we do pull out?
Are you willing to spend 1/10th of the airtime discussing what will happen, if the democrats pull the plug on it, without at least equal participation from the republicans?
Because if they do, then instantly, everything that follows will be their responsibility; the republicans will tear us to pieces for the results for which THEY should have to answer, not us.
And if you think that what follows our leaving
is going to be tolerable, or “explainable” to the american people, then I have to say, you’re living, and posting, from never-never land. Their is going to be one HELL of a blamegame played, when Shiastan in the south, and Kurdistan in the north, and ’70’s-Lebanon-in-the-middle get cranked up. Those little gifts are going to keep giving in ways that we don’t even comprehend, immediately, and for a long time to come.
Whosever name is on the gift box is going to have to pay some hellacious political dues.
The events that are going to follow our withdrawal from Iraq are going to be unspinnable as anything remotely resembling being “good”. NO amount of sophistry and bullshit and koolaid will whitewash it.
Why, for God’s sake, do you guys want the republicans to be able to point to THAT, and then point to us, while shreiking:
“It’s their fault!”
Are you so conscience-stricken that you are willing to let the people responsible for this bloody debacle get away with dumping it on us?
All that Pelosi and the democrats have to do is call their bluff, and say:
“Fine. We’ll just keep piling up those “WE wanted to leave” chits which YOUR president kept vetoing, and in 2008, we’ll cash them in with the voters. And when you people get tired of standing on the deck of the BushTanic, as it kicks up for the plunge, and SERIOUSLY yell for help, we may throw you that life preserver, in exchange for your signature on some rock-solid “we are LEAVING” bills, with YOUR John Hancock’s, right alongside ours.”
Consider this:
IF Pelosi, etc., can lever a pullout, on their own hook, with the republicans able to posture as fighting it to the end, if it COULD passe (and it can’t, of course, because Iraq is bush and Cheney’s baby, and they will never kill it.)
Then, you could go into the repubs congressional cloakrooms and watch them dancing naked, at having the democrats stick THEIR heads in the noose.
It all comes back to what is going to follow the pullout, and who should get blamed for it.
I aint volunteering for THAT duty, and you guys should not, either.
brendan @ 119
Rayne wasn’t responding to Gunga Djinn @40. She was responding to LibertyLee @52. And you may want to see if your doctor can prescribe something for this knee-jerking problem you seem to be having.
Who’s this Liberty Lee who is reminding us what a great guy Hitler was for telling us his plans?
Done with this one.
scarecrow @ 111
scarecrow, thanks for explaining. I hadn’t managed to piece that together.
Rayne at 142 — You wanna come over to my house next and help with my burgeoning pile of vacation laundry? I swear, it is breeding, and after two straight days of liveblogging, I am hopelessly behind.
nolo @ 129
You are welcome. And, I hate to admit how old I am :(, but am, but maybe we do learn patience as we mature.
selise, I hate to seem dense, but how does this provide cover? We will see how they voted on ‘Vote B’ won’t we?
EvilDrPuma @ 121
Your question presumes he had the ability and military intelligence to do so of which there is no evidence that exists.
I’m afraid we are going to have attacked Iran by September. Then, what are the Dems going to do?
Bush is going to finish out his term by taking care of his Axis of Evil. I have absolutely no doubt about it.
Tanbark at 149 — It’s called “don’t lie to me about what you are doing.” Here’s how it works: you don’t have the votes, fine, say so and let us know how we can help you get them. I’m on board for that. But when you dance around and pretend that you’ve won some victory that every person watching knows is nonexistent, you look like an ass. I’m not giving the Democratic leadership a rubber stamp any more than I wanted the GOP to give one to the Bush Administration. And if you think I’m going to just sit back and watch them make a shitty, junior high, asinine mistake in a highly public, idiotic non-tactical way and not call them on it? Then you do not know me at all.
LL@133 says “Hitler told us what he was going to do. He also thought he could bankrupt England and France and Russia. We need to destroy Islamic-Jihadism and Osama-ism (be it Sunni or Shi’ite) and use all the resources at our command to do so in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Syria and elsewhere. “
But then we would be Hitler wouldn’t we.
Do Not Feed the Trolls!!
Rayne @ 132
Well, you’re getting better responses than I have. What I’ve seen is that after sending lots of email, all of sudden (like when a big vote comes up), I’ll get responses to all the emails I sent over the last 6 months. Which makes me think they’re just sitting there unread until they decide to look and all of sudden discover that there was a bunch to respond to. Ditto w/ smail — same kind of behavior.
It does appear that phone calls and faxes get tallied on a daily basis.
Hence, my preference for phone/fax. Even though I’d far rather send email — i’m a lot more articulate that way.
Marily @ 144 (and others)
Send mail via the Speaker’s website (I just google Pelosi, and it’s down the page a bit). I think – don’t bet on this address – it’s something like http://www.speaker.house.gov .
It asks for name, e-mail addy, and Zip only.
Actually, I thought there was an even better moment on Countdown than the Special Comment — when Keith was talking to Howard Finemann, who was blathering on about how we (the pundits) always knew this would happen, and it was a choice between opposing the war and winning in ‘08 (spouting pundit conventional wisdom without a shred of explanation about why this would help them in ‘08) and Keith replied in digust, “We’re talking about bodies here.”
(I just hope he wises up and stops having Finemann on the show. He always parrots mindless CW that makes me scream at the TV, and we get more than enough of that elsewhere.)
This is so intense. Justin Raimando writes about Prof Andrew J Bacevich’s son who recently died in Iraq.
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=11007
An over view of Bacevich
http://www.bu.edu/ir/faculty/bacevich.html
I have heard Bacevich on the Diane Rehms show addressing the New militarism questioning the validity of the invasion of Iraq. He shares his concerns about how the U.S. has become increasingly infatuated with war and the military.
http://wwww.wamu.org/programs/dr/05/05/26.php
Bacevich is a retired army colonel, who served in Vietnam and now teaches at Boston Univ.
May his son rest in peace and may Prof Bacevich continue to speak truth to power, I am deeply sorry for his loss. His words and knowlege have been an inspiration for me and so many more.
Is anyone aware whether any of the yellow bellied “cakewalk in Iraq” zealots have lost any children or relatives in the war(tragedy) that they are responsible for?
Think that this bill actually has anything to do with the war?
This supplemental is not a war bill — it is a pork bill.
The Democrats in Congress traded their positions on the war in order to pass a bill filled with pork.
Faced with presenting a bill Bush would veto, they chose instead to give him everything he wanted in exchange for everything they wanted.
Bush has already come out this morning to gloat over winning the war portion of the bill, but has bad mouthed the Dems for the pork. There he is, George W. Bush, conquering hero, pointing his bloody little finger at the Democrats for being greedy little bastards. (Amazing how quickly we went from “culture of corruption” to “Democrats: weak, corrupt and stupid”.)
What everyone should be mad about is not that the Democrats in Congress have betrayed their supporters, everyone should be mad because they betrayed you so cheaply. Their war positions were bought and sold.
And because there is not election tomorrow, your views on Iraq just don’t count anymore. You are expendable. Unless you are willing to cough up some dough you no longer have a voice in the Congress.
Right now there is no money to be made in doing the right thing — that was so November. Right now the game is in lobby money and special interests.
And you thought “elections matter” — boy the Democrats play that good, didn’t they?
Wordsmith @ 153
Wait. Hitler was a great man? That sounds oddly familiar.
Case solved: L.L. is Louis Farrakhan, building his street cred with the younger generation by hanging on FDL.
Badwater @ 143
Agreed — they are not the same. We’d have a lot more people (americans and iraqis) alive right now if there hadn’t been a coup in 2000.
Doesn’t mean that the demos don’t suck though ….
Go to www dot anysoldier dot com and send something to our soldiers and sailors.
(I don’t support the war; I do support the troops. Why can’t the pols figure this out?)
Used books, CD’s, DVD’s, toiletries, etc., are welcome. Since it’s an APO box address, you can get a free priority mail box from the Post Office, fill it, and send it for a set fee of $8. You’ll also need to fill out a customs form. It’s pretty easy and it’s something.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 154
Just did the towels. You got a partial load of whites? Send ‘em over; I have half a load of whites and they’re going to have to wait until I can fill the load. Means the teenager won’t get her lucky white shirt back today.
Next up…the dreaded blue jeans. Many pockets to pat down for used gum and tissues, Gameboy games, spare change, small animals. Ugh…
Christy Hardin Smith @ 106
I actually wasn’t responding initially to your lauding of his policy objective. I was making a general argument about Edwards, who, among the top three Democratic candidates (at the moment) represents the left, antiwar flank (i.e., the majority), and that he’s doing it out of necessity, weakness, opportunism, whatever you want to call it. It’s cause for suspicion, though not necessarily resignation, that Democrats only oppose this war when they are not in positions of power, and Edwards, in particular, gives me cause to believe he would play bait and switch.
It’s touching that Edwards can put up a website for the people he sent to be killed and maimed in the course of killing and maiming Iraqis. Touching, really.
I guess you win when you club me over the head for not “offering to help out a military family who needs some assistance with a plumbing problem when you have plumbing skills. Or giving a solider who just got back and is having PTSD issues a ride to his VA appointment because driving is impossible for him and the loudness of the city bus system brings him right back to his service in Iraq. Or offering to babysit some neighborhood kids of a soldier home on leave so the soldier and his/her spouse can have some time of their own to reconnect”. That’s true, I don’t. I’d better not diss the military again.
Liberty Lee,
“Bin Laden determined to attack in the United States”.
What part of that memo didn’t Bush understand?
-GSD
Fresh outta kibbles today.
Thats a good thing because I really want to light someone up.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 155
So, I probably should know by now, but I don’t, where are you? I’m in LA. Temping this week, but I could always help with a little laundry.
Really.
I’m sorry CHS but you are dead wrong on this. It was simple: the voters specifically put the Dems into the majority to get us out of Iraq. Period. Full stop. They did NOT vote to continue the war, change strategy for victory, etc, they voted to end the war. ANY Dem that goes against that mandate, and it WAS a mandate far larger than any the GOP could EVER have claimed since the turn-around in Congress was larger this last time than the “vaunted” mandate the GOP got back in the 90s with the Gingrich gang.
No. The ONLY proper act here was to hold firm and let Bush himself defund the war cold with his veto pen. The Dems could then keep trying and trying to fund the troops while also doing the right thing by ensuring their swift return home permanently, but seen the troops get screwed yet again by Bush. BUSH is trying to defund the war cold while the Dems would be trying to take care of the troops.
Simple. Factually accurate. Entirely within the bounds of the voter mandate of 2006. Instead, the Dems have decided to be terrified yet again of 20% Bush! Hell’s bells, their own approval rating is in freefall now specifically because they are hemming and hawing on Iraq. They are not doing what they were put in the majority to do so they are now bleeding voter support. They WILL pay in 2008, like it or not. The Dems are working to suppress the vote by not serving their bosses, the voters. They are doing what they do best: cower and hide and stab themselves (and the American people) in the back.
They will pay. They MUST pay. THEY MUST PAY!
“disgusted” you can say that again Christy!
Here is the interview with Bacevich(vietnam vet, war critic and Prof at Boston Univ) about his son’s death on Mothers day in Iraq at NPR.
http://www.npr.org/templates/s…..d=10318800
Christy @ 47
I don’t deny there are troops who want to come home, and families that want it ended. But I also know there are many who don’t really care or who want it to continue. (yes, believe it or not, there are people who see it simply as another day on the job or another dollar in the pocket).
I’ve been debating this war since before it began, and my opinion on it hasn’t changed:
1)for those who are trapped there, I hope they can get out.
2)for those getting rich and/or enjoying the killing, I hope they stay.
3)for the participating members of our democracy, remember that we exercise the power to dictate the actions of our government and not vice versa. That is to say *WE*, the majority who want out of Iraq, decides what the United States does & doesn’t do regarding Iraq.
Sound cold? Maybe. But I’m looking at it from a purely clinical viewpoint, and won’t waste any tears on those basking in the carnage they’ve created.
Raise your hand if, after the elections in November 2006 happened, you thought it possible that 1 year later we would have more troops in Iraq, not less.
Me neither.
Dems had nothin so they traded nothin. They could not deliver on a vote to stop the war now- they don’t have the votes- nor do they think that the timing is right- but they ran the bill by like a bus to see who got on- few did.
They also don’t have the votes to over ride a Clusterfuck veto- that’s just a hard cold fact.
If they don’t send ANY funding bill- they’ll lose congress in 08- that’s at least a 95 percent probability. I assume that their judgement about that is correct.
So why the fuck did they start a gun fight when they’re holding a fuckin pea shooter? That’s STOOOPID.
PageUp @ 164
Didn’t I ask you last thread to defend this Republican talking point and cite the so-called pork in this bill?
Unless you mean the Federal Minimum Wage; yeah, I can see where requiring corporations to pay their workers something closer to a living wage might be called “pork” by certain parties.
EPU’d from a couple strings back (took awhile to write) (and sorry about the OT here,) but methinx important to get on the record “if you will”…:)
selise @ 199
In my personal opinion, however right Palast was on Katherine Harris’s skulduggery (and of course he was, 100%), in my mind at least, if he claims to have Rover’s emails in hand — that signifies close to exactly nothing in my scientific/logical estimation.
In your reading of FDL you may have caught my mentioning what I and my colleagues did by way of forensic examination of the White House “eighteen and a half minute gap” Watergate tape back in the ’70s. That was exactly my second foray into a field I essentially invented: what I dubbed “forensic acoustics.” Long story there, told elsewhere.
This case is different — as all of them are one from another; and this one is happening in the distributed digital age rather than in the obsolete realm of analog recorded tape. In fact, this is not a case of “forensic acoustics” at all; it rather might be characterized as “forensic digital analysis of character strings in the form of emails.” Because there is no physical evidence at all that’s involved. If Palast saved full copies of whatever arrived at his computer as a file (and didn’t just print them out and discard the incoming bits), that still does nothing to tie those strings of bits to whomever they appear to come from. (I mention printout and discarded bits because most email display algorithms are designed NOT to show you all the headers, just those that the sender actually wrote with their very own fingers. So if your screen isn’t displaying every char in the message, then imho it’s unlikely that a printout will show you the header detail.)
Every email has what’s called headers — strings of info like To:, From:, Subject:, Cc: and the like. They are separated one from the other by NEW LINE symbols (whatever those may be in the receiving operating system — that can be either a single NL or a CR-LF pair). The message body is separated from the headers by TWO NEW LINEs.
As an email message traverses the Internet, each of the computers which stores-and-forwards it, however short the storage time might be, adds more lines of info to the email’s header area noting that traversal. If a machine along the line receives a message and the machine to which it “should” go to is down, or one or t’other of them is too busy to transmit or receive it, then the first machine stores it and then forwards it (the central genius of email, there: “store and forward”) to the receiver, showing the times of receipt and transmission along the line from sender to recipient.
So let’s say that Palast’s copy of (what he alleges to be) Rover’s email has some header info that’s been saved and can be analyzed in detail. Those headers are crucial, but really not conclusively air-tight, sad to say. Some email clients (e.g., Eudora — but apparently not GMail) can “go verbose” and display the entire set of headers — in other words such that the traversal path of the message can be traced. That precise header info would be necessary (but unfortunately not definitively sufficient) to prove the case.
What would be required next would be (and of course this is unlikely itself) a second person coming forward with alleged copies of the same message body, subject and the like in its header area, and that the full headers of the second person’s email are available.
I will assume that the Subject, To:, Cc: original transmission time, and body text info of the two messages is identical bit-for-bit, else the game is up at that point and one of the messages is apparently a forgery — or perhaps both are.
Now the really fun part. :) The headers of the second person’s version of the message should match up near the beginning of the message’s journey (from the CPU of the alleged sending party) and then diverge as they traverse the ‘Net to reach the recipient. Only if that is true can one make a case that the messages originated at the same point on the ‘Net. Sometimes, IIRC, there are internal Internet TCP/IP addresses in message headers specifically identifying the nodes of the ‘net as the message passes through, whose validity can also be checked.
So let’s say that two copies of the “same” message show up from two independent people. Their headers logically match up — meaning that they show message pathways identical at the sender and then they diverge appropriately until they get to the two different recievers’ mail servers.
Wow, that would be sensational! I would almost be convinced! But any competent Defense counsel, and certainly the Republican Wurlitzer Noise Machine, would immediately point out that such logical identicality could easily have been cleverly forged. The stakes are high enough, they would say, that this delightfully powerful-appearing “tracing back” of the emails to KKKarl’s desk might be more apparent than real. And unfortunately, they would imho be right. (As Maxwell Smart would have said, “Missed it by that much!”)
So this is why I think that Palast, who can certainly avail himself of expertise far more current than mine, may not be crowing yet. If ever.
I note for the record that I gained my first knowledge of the workings of email in ‘72 from its inventor, Ray Tomlinson, about a week after it began spreading exponentially from him, through me and some others with the vision to encourage him to stand up to his manager (who wanted to quash it), to the rest of our company, and thence to the world — as the ARPAnet morphed into the Internet of today. That mental model of how email works has stood the test of time as I have discussed it with fellow geeks and delved as needed (whenever my various ‘net domains have gone awry over the years) into the arcane world of headers, as the typical number of headers have themselves grown strongly as the traversal paths of emails from one end of the earth to the other have proliferated.
But I make no claim to have totally understood the technical events that occur NOW, or that my above description accurately reflects today’s complex, multi-platform (PCs and their ilk, Blackberries, Cellphones and suchlike) world of email. It reflects only what I believe to be perennially true about email, and how that mental model affects the forensic problem that will face Greg Palast.
As I said above, every forensic case is difficult its own special way. In “The Case of the Erased White House Tape,” we were able to draw completely air-tight conclusions that were supported by many independent “converging operations” on a physical piece of evidence, with direct access to the devices known to have recorded it and all of those which might have erased it. Plus of course full access to the most advanced digital signal processing of that day, and full knowledge of the mechanics and electronics of analog tape transport devices.
In my (overlong, sorry) description of “The Case of the Roving Email,” my own bottom line is that I can think of only two operations that could be thought of as converging, but unfortunately the convergence, even if demonstrated (which will be damned hard and lucky to find) could not be held to be airtight.
Naturally I would welcome any other informed opinions on this — “learn something new every day” is a good philosophy. :)
… and now we return you to your normal thread, already in progress…
————————————————————————
‘PupMap (622 pins), Chat, Calendar, Timeline (Click here or on my .SIG above)
Solai @ 155
that’s what they will tell us, but (if i understand correctly) it will be the vote on the rule that matters. watch that one. any dem who votes to approve the rule is voting for blank check funding of the iraq occupation.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 158
amen, beautifully said.
Rayne @ 170
I washed my husband’s cell phone!!!
Kathleen,
Paul Wolfowitz just lost his girlfriend, so he like Caligula-George and Pickles Bush are suffering oh so much.
-GSD
Solai @ 158
Different people need “cover” from different constituents. The anti-war Dems need cover from our anger, so they vote “no.” on part B. The scared Dems need cover from those voters who might be susceptible to arguments they didn’t support the troops, so they vote “yes.” This latter group presumably believes that “support the troops” voters outnumber “get out” voters in their own districts. I’m not certain what the truth is — the Dems have consistently underestimated the electorate’s disapproval of the war — but this theory, and that’s all it is, at least explains what they’re doing.
Goodling’s “supposed” religious belief would call for some punishment for her lies and damage to our justice system. Here is what Johnny would say
I fell in to a burning ring of fire
I went down,down,down
and the flames went higher.
And it burns,burns,burns
the ring of fire
the ring of fire.
allan_in_upstate @ 168
Ohhh-hoo, that would explain the mental picture of Louie that popped in my head when reading LL’s posts.
Well, now I know.
GSD @ 173
easy enough to say, but in a complex world a “when and where” needed to be discovered. We knew Japan was fixing to attack, but didn’t know about Pearl Harbor either.
You seem to be an agent of Total Information Awareness. That is you are trying to spread disinformation and falsehoods about these mideast peoples. It is well known that Saudi Sunni fundamentalists were encouraged and supported by the CIA. The Bin Laden family and Bush family have worked together for years. Commander Guy calls this a War for Civilization but everyone knows the Bush Wars are for OIL.
Thank you. You made me laugh.
Does the Israeli lobby own Hillary?
http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iow…..ising.html
http://www.ifamericansknew.org…..pport.html
lee5 @ 162
It depends on the rep. I nearly always get a response by mail within a couple of weeks when I use my congressman’s email form, and I usually get a response from Sen. Warner. Ex-Sen. George Allen, on the other hand, rarely responded and only with a form letter that indicated they’d read nothing other than the subject line. “You’ll be pleased to hear that Sen. Allen voted exactly the opposite of what you wanted!”
Your experience is certainly a reasonable guide for your congressperson, as is mine, but neither of us should assume that the same applies to everyone’s, and it’s probably a good idea for everyone to experiment with the different methods of contact until you get a sense of how things work.
OK Everyone! So what do WE do about it?
I’ve never seen such unanimity among the activists, the blogs, the Daily Show and Olbermann. (And hopefully Gore on the Daily Show tonight has a word to say about it too?)
We’re all disgusted and ashamed.
Schumer and Emanuel and Lieberman basically told us all to F#@* Off after they ripped the keys out of our bloody hands last November.
What do WE do, to stand up to THEM??
C’mon you blog owners. Start polling some concrete suggestion.
WHAT!
AP – President Bush said he supports a $120 billion Iraq war spending bill on track to to pass Congress Thursday, ending weeks of wrangling with congressional Democrats on how long U.S. troops should stay.
Let me indicate my level of upsetness with my party is rather elevated.
LS @ 182
I WISH I could wash my husband’s cell phone.
He’s addicted to Crackberry. [sigh]
“Hitler told us what he was going to do”
No he didn’t
If you go to the “What to Send” tab you can see a list of troops that have posted messages about specific things they may need. You can sort by service, state from, how much time left and other categories.
I used to regard people like the troll here today, Goodling, and others like them as fools. Now I detest them. They talk a good game, but in the end they have nothing.
What is their response to W’s inability or failure to protect the country prior to 9/11? They have this warped view of personal responsibility for others, but for themselves, not so much.
Iraq is W’s latest failure. He and the neocons are married to it. In the corporate world failed CEO’s are replaced by “turnaround specialists” because failed CEO’s are similarly married to their failures and lack the credibility to correct them.
I just wish the Dems would call them on it daily and take over the task of fixing W’s failure. For the good of the country.
Frank33 @ 190
I sure wish the War WERE for Oil. And that we had more of it. When we knock out enough of the extremists to get some, I will say “Amen, the USA deserves its share”…
plainjane 162 — good advice; heal thyself please…. *g*
SOS in MA @ 182
Add to your list of e-mail clients that can show you the header info:
Netaddress, aka USA dot net.
There’s a button labelled ‘More Info’ (on the short form) which, if you click on it, will show you the whole thing, with dates and times. (I use it when I’m reporting phishing, since they always want to see the header.)
When you are tired of seeing a screenful of stuff, click the same button (which now says ‘Less Info’) and it will go back to the usual minimal view.
GSD @ 185
Memo to all you adulterers out there:
If the first thing your mistress does when there are strains in the relationship is to hire
Joe DiGenova’s lesser half
(you know, the one who looks like she survived an explosion at a Sherwin Williams factory),
then it’s time to move on.
Can someone explain to me what the Dems mean when they say the “don’t have the votes”? If I understand math correctly, the Republicans don’t have the votes to pass legislation funding the war. If the democrats simply did nothing–at which they’ve proven themselves remarkably adept–then Bush would lose by true default. No?
Seeing “LL” post so frequently is not what I needed today as my damn-dems disgust runneth over.
Someone above, an astute commenter, mentioned Hillary. I’m starting to get riled about the Senator.
LibertyLee @ 133
You are apparently part of the 28% who still believe despite the Republican disasters of the last 6 years. The other 70% of the country does not agree with you.
I expect at some point you are going to get around to the nuke’m, nuke’m all argument. We don’t have the military to hold Iraq and you are wanting to start half a dozen other wars. So what else is left but to turn all of these countries into black glass parking lots? And why because people in other parts of the world have the temerity not to agree with you, and that makes them dangerous, and terrorists, and so we must destroy them, destroy them all.
Those are paranoid fantasies. In the real world fears and desires should not rule policy decisions. Not every disagreement necessarily means the barbarians are at the gate. You really should try to distinguish between what is and what you fear. The two are not the same.
STTP in Ohio @ 179
Prediction: On 1.1.08 the US will have more than 200,000 troops in Iraq, and half that number of “contractors.”
“every endless night has a dawning day”
somewhere
When the first link in a chain of reasoning is a cheerio- you can just ignore what follows:
Case in point:
“Hilter told us what he would do”
Solai @ 192
Our family baby (17-months-old) loves chewing on her mother’s cell phone. Nothing like talking on speaker phone ALL the time. I bought my daughter another one Monday. Went to drop it off and we turned around and caught that baby chewing on TWO remotes AT THE SAME TIME!
Babies…..I tell ya.
So, who’s organizing the general strike?
“Niagra Falls”
Slowly I turned- step by step- inch by inch—etc.
I find it very interesting that when we have posts about how we’re pissed off at the Dems for one particular thing (albeit a major one), we get an influx of new names (and one or two who haven’t been here for a long time) telling us how there’s no difference between the parties.
I’m just sayin’…
What can we do? Register enmasse to indie or third party?
Why do we only need 20 Representatives to vote down the rule?
dems decide to fund more death, while
(nytimes linky)
Rayne @ 181
Sorry Rayne, you’re not gonna like what follows:
This supplemental contains a nifty little clause that reintstates all the graft that was contained in the bill Bush originally vetoed.
There is no “minimum wage” legislation in this bill — in other words, the Democrats got nothing any of us would care about. Instead it was all for their lobby and corporate sponsors.
Don’t these Democratic nitwits understand that they will be called weak, capitulating, terrorist appeasers by Republicans even if they were to stand strong and return to work in the face of anthrax assassination attempts?
It’s Lucy and the football again.
-GSD
I am disgusted, too. Why is it so hard to NOT pass a supplemental spending bill? You need a majority in both the House and the Senate and the President’s signature. Let him run out of money. The troops come home. It really is that simple. oh, and I’m particularly disgusted by the poor showing yesterday at Delilah’s hearing. We gave them a long list of questions. Only a few members were on topic and on target. I blame Conyers and his Committee staff for not organizing the hearing. They clearly could have done better by giving the time to the few good questioners, notably Sanchez, Schiff and Artur Davis. Each time they would get close, they ran out of time (and Delilah was particulary good at running out the clock at the end there, wasnt she?). They need to do better or get out of the game and let the SJC handle it. With that in mind, I’m going to put together the evidence (that already exists) of the White House’s direct involvement in the firing of the 12 (14? I’ve lost count.) US Attorneys and send it to Leahy’s staff via my Senator.
I am so pissed at my party.
rwcole @ 68
This is a big problem. The Dems have no Rove machine, and aren’t temperamentally inclined to accept that kind of authority anyway. So how do we win against such massively dirty pool?
averageamerican @ 209
DING!!
Hitler told us what he would do
Bin Laden said he was gonna blow us up
Therefore:
We have to stay in Iraq
Other than the fact that the premises have nothing to do with the conclusion and that there is no proof offered for the truth of the premises- it’s an impecable argument.
rw @ 211
Just what did Hilter tell us he would do? [something or other to do with that typo]
S.O.S. from MA @ 182
Well, certainly Palast’s e-mails could form the basis for a more legal investigation if they warranted it. And computer forensic standards do exist that can stand up in a court of law.
There would also be considerable political fallout. You don’t have to absolutely prove something to do that. You just have to convince the public arena.
Fozzetti @ 114
Publicly finced elections — remember this, the election industry is Big Business. Public financings simply another way to stream tax $ into corporate pockets (eg., Help America Vote mainly helped Diebold and SSI). So, we will need to think ahead to ensure this does not happen.
Universal govt-pd health care s/b a shoo-in. *BUT* US govt already spends more per capita on health care than ’socialist’ Canada. Add the individual pay $ and insurance pay $ — the US health industry is abso-rolling in all that dough. They (Health Pharma Insurance industries) will not give that $ up w/o a fight.
rwcole @ 222
There you go throwin up that logic again!
duck @ 204
That raises the question (maybe some of you congressional scholars know the answer: Did Reid/Pelosi have any legal obligation to send new legislation after Bush’s veto? Or to speed it up in any way? Marilyn
PJ
Hitler told us that he just needed a little elbow room and that after he took the sudetenland- everthing would be all right.
He told Stalin that he and the Russian people would be allies forever.
I’m surprised LL hasn’t recommended just nuking the entire Middle East back to the stone age. Yeah, that’s the ticket.
PageUp @ 219
NO! No. no. no no no.no.no.
Damn.
Redshift @ 215
Are they recruiting, do you think? Or just marketing blood pressure medicine in a roundabout way?
LibertyLee @ 201
I sure wish the War WERE for Oil. And that we had more of it. When we knock out enough of the extremists to get some, I will say “Amen, the USA deserves its share”…
wow, thanks for your honesty
so what do you think is going on with the oil in Iraq?
liberal elite @ 217
Sirota has explained elsewhere that Republicans generally vote against such rules. So if you lose a few Dem “yes” votes, the rule would be defeated. I don’t know whether his prediction about Republican votes on the Rule” is correct or not.
Okay, see if this makes things more clear. If I understand correctly, one of the rules in the ‘rules’ section of the funding bill states that there will be no amendments requiring that funding be tied to timelines/benchmarks. Therefore, voting ‘yes’ on the ‘rule’ will stop any legislator (like Kucinich) from adding amendments to the bill.
Is the Katrina $ in the bill?
Just want to highlight what Scarecrow is saying – and point again to Sirota – the vote on the rule is the vote, and a vote for the rule is a vote to hide the real vote on Iraq from us. Watch carefully:
Today, however, Democrats are planning to include the Iraq Blank check bill IN the rule itself, meaning when the public goes to look for a vote on the Iraq supplemental bill, the public won’t find that. All we will find is a complex parliamentary procedure vote. Lawmakers, of course, will then tell their angry constituents they really are using all of their power to end the war, and this vote on the rule – which was the real vote for war – wasn’t really a vote on the war. It is a devious, deliberately confusing cherry on top of the manure sundae being served up to the American public, which voted Democrats into office on the premise that they would use their congressional majority to end the war.
Sirota on Cheney Democrats
I am waiting on the result before throwing in the towel. If Pelosi can hold the caucus together and force the Republicans to pass this on a straight Repub/Blue Dog vote then Tomasky’s analysis starts making a lot of sense, Democrats get to pivot from ‘funding the troops’ to ‘deadlines’. Americans clearly want benchmarks and deadlines, but by and large are not as willing to cut off the beans and bullets. If Democrats can sell the following message they can position themselves well for what is certain to be continuing disaster coming out of Iraq.
“Of course the troops got funding, that was never in serious doubt, Democrats were simply voting against ‘War with no end’, Republicans for ‘endless war’.
You can accept this as surrender or take it as ‘give them enough rope to hang themselves’. A lot depends on how many people stick with Pelosi, 180 No votes would be more than enough to draw a line.
As to the Senate, well it seems that Risk Adversion seems to be the order of the day. I don’t see a lot of hope there, but as I said I am waiting on the actual vote.
TeddySanFran @ 231
As of January, there were a lot of unemployed Hill staffers.
They need to do something to put bread on the table.
Pizza is expensive, you know.
GSD @ 128
OBL denied attacking the WTC. If he’s right, who did?
Christy Hardin Smith @ 47
You used this tactic twice. Here’s Gung Djinn’s original post:
“Can we really make the assumption that the troops want us to bring them home? I don’t think we can. At least not in a majority sense.
Instead, I see it as a policy issue and a purse issue, both of which we *do* have majority control of.”
Was his point really so offensive that it had to be squelched with a guilt trip? Do we really have to volunteer for vets before we can make the observation that, in the political realm, at least, protestions that we “Support the Troops”, a Republican party slogan devised in another Iraq war, is part of the rhetorical trap the Democratic Party now finds itself in, with hardly anyone willing to entertain the possibility of defunding the war?
i just took a quick survey of the lefty blogosphere – and i just got to say it was sooo encouraging to see all the push back on congress to end the iraq occupation and to be honest with us about what they are doing.
Wordsmith @ 37
You can order postcards from:
http://www.vistaprint.com/vp/n…..k=Postcard
I chose the image to upload from those at the Memory Hole:
http://www.thememoryhole.org/w…..tos/dover/
They’re gonna fund the next four months- period.
I only hope they pull out the dumb fuck loser language about the bench marks that they give the worst president in history the option to ignore. That’s just WAY too stupid.
If any dem congresscritter is payin ANY attention at all- take that stupid ass language out- it makes ya look like ya got a PIE all over yer face and yer claimin it’s MAKEUP..
Take it the fuck OUT- or we’ll have ya committed. It’s STOOOPID. Take it OUT.
redshift: have you had any success e-mailing Jim Webb? I was rather disappointed when I didn’t get a response.
I was SO excited about him…..now, alas, not so sure.
I feel sorry for Pelosi. She really looked depressed the other night.
duck @ 203
It means that they don’t have the veto-override votes to pass a bill that does what they want, and they don’t think they’re not good enough at PR to convince people that if Bush refuses to compromise at all and vetoes everything that he’s the one “denying funds to the troops.”
And more particularly, there are enough conservative “blue dogs” who could be wrestled to vote for the timeline once, but can’t be counted on to vote for it repeatedly if they know it’s never going to get to override level. That’s really the point where the PR argument actually has some reality to it — it’s really hard to portray not passing anything as boldly standing up to the president, even if it would achieve the desired result.
The fix is in. Hillary/Obama in 2008.
TeddySanFran @ 209
I forget where I read it, but an article stated we have over 100,000 “contractors” there already!
My congressman is a blue dog. He hasn’t disappointed me yet. Webb and Tester have.
Speaker Pelosi. You’re in danger of losing me.
Harry Reid is a weak leader. He’s been played by Rove and his agent, RGJoe, since 11/8/07. We need a new majority leader — if not right now, then in 2009. Who of the Senate Dems currently seeking the Presidency will step up and challenge this forced-birth proponent who currently leads their caucus?
S.O.S. from MA @ 179 –
thanks for the education!
PageUp @ 219
I’m going to need more solid information than this before I decide whether I like it or not.
– Was the 25 mil for spinach to cover for losses sustained by spinach growers after FDA’s ineffective handling of the E. coli outbreak last year?
– What was the money for salmon and aquaculture related to — a catastrophic event that hurt the local market and long-term salmon stock survival, or for sustainable growth? right now we need more fish after poultry and pork have been contaminated with melamine.
Depends on what it is before I have a problem with it. Tell me it’s money to rebuild cas*nos on the Gulf Coast and I might have a problem; tell me it’s to help the oil industry and I’ll really blow a gasket.
Do your homework. Right now I’d just as soon the entire bill was killed, regardless of riders; that would make me happy.
TeddySanFran @ 248
We need Feingold I think.
P J Evans @ 203
Add to your list of e-mail clients that can show you the header info: Netaddress, aka USA dot net.
There’s a button labelled ‘More Info’ (on the short form) which, if you click on it, will show you the whole thing, with dates and times. (I use it when I’m reporting phishing, since they always want to see the header.)
When you are tired of seeing a screenful of stuff, click the same button (which now says ‘Less Info’) and it will go back to the usual minimal view.
Tnx. Yep, there are several such clients, just couldn’t recall them at the moment. Is there anything you can add to, or contradict, my thinking on this? Serious question, unserious answers are OK too :)
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WASHINGTON – President Bush said Thursday this summer will be a critical time for his Iraq troop buildup strategy and predicted heavy fighting in the weeks and months ahead.
From Gary Kamiya in Salon on Tuesday:
Brisingamen says
May 24th, 2007 at 10:01 am
Thank you, Brisingamen
Oklahoma kiddo @ 253
while he vacations at his estate in crawford, tx.
Dear Mod: thank you so much. I plumb forgot about that word.
;-)
What would Feingold have done? He got his bill up for a vote- and it got scuttled. A leader can’t be any more aggressive than the people he leads are willing to be- or it just blows up..
This is not an issue of “passive personality” Reid is every bit as aggressive as Feingold- it’s about not havin the support from his troops to move forward.
oddmommy @ 247
She’s gonna be a lot more depressed when someone in her constituency (we voted 75/25 last fall to impeach Bush and Cheney; our Board of Supervisors requested she lead us OUT of Iraq) challenges her right to her “safe” seat.
It’ll happen. Bet on it.
Thanks, Scarecrow! Seems like a “slim or none” kind of 2 chances scenario to me.
scarecrow @ 236
HotFlash @ 242
He didn’t do the bombing. He ordered it. We saw him counting on his fingers as the planes went in from his lair in Tora Bora. And was surprised when the Heroes of United 93 stopped the fourth attack. Why do you repeat the conspiracy theories of old when attempting to hold a civilized conversation?
[RBG Note; the mods are having a very difficult time here trying to decide if the phrase “hold a civilized conversation” is intentional irony.]
Oklahoma kiddo @ 258
was he talking about heavy fighting here or there?
Keep Hillary in NY.
Siun @ 239
Sirota’s explanation is even more complicated than mine (admittedly simplistic), but the logic of providing cover is about the same.
If you link through to CQ, they say the exact “rule” was still being debated/fashioned this morning.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 246
maybe this will cheer you up:
WASHINGTON – President Bush said Thursday this summer will be a critical time for his Iraq troop buildup strategy and predicted heavy fighting in the weeks and months ahead.
There’s the Rove touch- managing expectations down. It’s smart- it’s what the dems should have done- instead they promised the moon and sent us a mooning.
Christy; they’re trying to placate naive, zealous bloggers like you…who don’t understand the realities of leaving Iraq, nor the realities of what is going to happen when we do.
(And evidently don’t want to to talk about them, either.)
They didn’t make a “shitty, asinine, junior-high mistake…” they did what they should have done, which is try to oppose bush’s agenda, and the recognize that they haven’t got the political horsepower to do it.
If Pelosi and the democrats DO stop funding the war at this point, when there are still a lot of people unsure about what has happened, and what is GOING to happen, that will be political suicide. It will permit the republicans scapegoat us, for the denouement of THEIR bloody soap opera, with a vengeance.
I do not undestand why you want that to happen.
And if you think that the results of our leaving Iraq are going to be not too bad, or politically tolerable, then can you please put up what YOU think will happen, when we leave?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 249
Why would you say this about a couple of hawks?
People need to ask the question “why?”
Why would the leadership cave so easily and quickly? What is in it for them? Politicians don’t make moves like this in isolation.
I haven’t read the bill — I don’t know anyone who has. But I only know of one thing that makes a politician do the ridiculous — money.
I’ve been challenged already by someone who wants me to produce proof that this is all about money — and he/she is right to do that. But that will be easily done once the bill hits the Internet.
In the meantime, add up these bits of information: Democrats who otherwise claim to be against the war are suddenly lining up on this one; Murtha goes ballistic over earmarks; the republicans in Congress are strangely silent before the vote; there is not one, but two bills up today — the second one concerns extra domestic spending.
Don’t you think there is a pattern here?
EDIT:
This just crossed the wires:
My God, I think I was right, it wasn’t a sell-out, it was all about $$>
Elliott @ 262
Oh yea, we’re going to go from where we are now to “fightin in the streets”. I used to have Trotskyite friends who thought the revolution was right around the corner. Dream on.
oddmommy @ 245
I don’t know if I’ve gotten a response from an email to his office yet. I did notice not getting a response early on, but chalked it up to the fact that the office had only been open for about a month, and just by chance I’ve mostly been making phone calls since then.
You’re still a member of that party? Hell, I left after the Alito vote. Come on and join me as an Independent. You can still give money and support to the correct Dems while ensuring that the wrong Dems don’t get so much as a single penny of your money (like when you give to the DCCC or DSCC, etc).
The party has left YOU, you wont be leaving the party. You will merely be joining with the growing number of people who realise that when it comes to the brass tacks, there IS no substantive difference between the parties (I know, I know…): they are both under the sway of corporations. That is a stone-cold fact. As a result there will be NO substantive improvement in healthcare in this country so long as the GOP OR the Dem party as a whole gets money and support. There will be NO substantive change in worker rights, wars, foreign policy, privacy rights, etc.
You have to start changing the system somewhere in order to undermine the rotten heap and you CANNOT do it from within either party. Quit the party and become an Independent. Force the Dems to kiss your ass for your vote and monetary support.
noen @ 227
There would also be considerable political fallout. You don’t have to absolutely prove something to do that. You just have to convince the public arena.
First off, thanks for not quoting my entire msg! (: and I’m sure the server is also grateful :) … My first reaction is that our own “noise machine” doesn’t have nearly the carrying power as the Mighty Republican Wurlitzer… Could you amplify a bit on the computer forensic standards that can stand up in a court of law, and how they might be relevant in this sort of case? Serious question, unserious answers OK :)
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Do we have word yet from the PrezCandi “front-runners” about this bill? Have Obama and Hillary said yet how they’ll vote? This “need to read the bill first” excuse is so 109th Congress….
Tanbark @ 267
Did you say Iraq or Vietnam?
raven @ 274
*sigh*
rwcole @ 270
Roverwcole @ 270
Evidently Rove learned to “manage expectations” after Republicans’ stated predictions about the elections last year, or after “Mission Accomplished”. Criminals can be cunning in a feral kind of way, but don’t overestimate them.
Scarecrow – the rules vote is meant to be confusing and we should all scream over that. Like the cloture vote on Feingold and then the Cochran vote, it is a maneuver to keep us from seeing and realizing what this congress is doing.
A vote for the rules is a vote to hide the actual votes on the supplemental … that’s my understanding.
TeddySanFran @ 278
The Gutless Wonders
Gore pleases me. At this point Obama does not.
Two soldiers from our home region died in Iraq this week. One North Dakotan, one Minnesotan. This being Memorial Weekend, veterans will be putting little flags on all the graves of soldiers from other wars.
Here’s an idea I hope you’ll join me in. 16 soldiers have died from North Dakota for Bush’s Insanity. I’m going to get 16 of those little flags and place them in a square in my front yard. No sign, no political agenda. Just my own reminder “lest we forget.”
Maybe if we’d spread the word and people would do this all across America–find out how many soldiers from your state have paid the ultimate price and honor them with flags.
And then if somebody set up an online place where we could upload pictures. One place where we, the people, could show the world…and this congress…what truly matters. [I hold no hope that this president will ever emerge from his lies and corruption long enough to truly acknowledge in his heart, not just his teleprompter, the sacrifice American families have made for his arrogance] That ending the occupation of Iraq matters. That timelines matter. That accountability matters. That the rule of law and the Constitution matter.
Maybe then each and every one of us can look in our own mirror with honor that we have spoken out. And will continue.
Because the most dangerous man refuses to learn the lessons of history… but we can still remember and heed John Kerry’s prophetic words about another war… my paraphrasing’s lousy here… who will be the last man to die for an unjust war?
The blood is on the hands of Washington, but our hands can still plant flags.
brendan
True- they make political mistakes- plenty of em- but this isn’t one.
Siun @ 278
ushering in a new low in weaselly spinelessness
Unless we stay for fifty years, Iraq will devolve into ethnic cleansing, civil war, and a carve-up by its neighbors. In fact, it already has! So, why stay another day?
Do those here who suggest our DeeCee Dem leaders are acting wisely and well propose the US stay fifty years?
GAH! By producing a bill with timelines and including a requirement for troop drawdown and withdrawal, Pelosi and the democraps would NOT be stopping funding for the occupation. BUSH would be because HE would be the one to deny the troops funding by vetoing the funding measures. QUIT GOING ALONG WITH THE FALSE GOP TALKING POINTS!
A Bush veto means BUSH is defunding the war, NOT the Dems. Sheesh.
For me, what is disappointing about the Democrats’ approach to the supplemental is that they have left us, the 70% of Americans who oppose the war in Iraq, out of their strategy and calculations. They don’t need to face an intransigent President and supine Republicans in the House and Senate alone.
They should be reaching out to us. What better cover is there than that that 70% of the electorate can give you? They should be straight with us and tell us exactly what they are doing and why. Our goals are the same: fund the troops and get out of Iraq.
My cynicism tells me that they don’t because they don’t trust us. They don’t think we will have their backs. It’s a Catch 22. They won’t talk to us until they know we will have their backs and we will not have their backs until they start talking to us.
Exactly! I had this TiVO because I work evenings. I watched three times just last night because I could NOT believe how Keith had perfectly encapsulated what I thought. I also transferred it to VHS tape so a couple of friends who insist on not having cable or even a computer can watch it.
Praedor Atrebates @ 271
seems to me like the only functional difference in being an independent is that I don’t get to caucus/vote in primaries. Am I missing something? It’s not that the demos are my party …
He thinks the spoils belong to Victor. And they may, but his name ain’t Victor.
Elliott @ 278
I don’t know about right around the corner, but the talk of bush not surrendering power in 2009 is seeming less extreme by the day. I said it yesterday, and it’s not entirely a joke: when he does crown himself emperor,, revolution will be the only option.
I think this vote, and our hold on Congress, was lost on 11.08.07 when DeeCee Dems kept calling our illegal and immoral occupation “the War In Iraq.” It’s been an occupation since long before then, and Dem leaders shoulda called it that, upon assuming Congressional leadership.
Words matter. Ending an occupation, especially when you’ve got three-quarters of the country AND most of the occupied country behind you — that’s easy. Ending a war just sounds like — abandoning the troops. Our leaders got played.
The Democratic Party is trying to control the way I vote. Therefore, the way I think too. The Democratic Party is not pro-political choice.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 284
I’m kind of familiar with your angle on things, so here’s a something to put Obama in a better light: Haaretz ranked him last of 17 candidates for “pro-Israel” credentials (being Haaretz, “pro-Israel” isn’t deemed unambiguously good).
I was reflexively suspicious of him when I heard David Brooks praising him after his 2004 DNC speech, but I think Obama’s core beliefs are decent and antiwar, for whatever that’s worth: after all, he’s just one man in a system that’s rigged for war right now. I am also inclined to defend Pelosi (#21).
Some are predicting that if and when the US leaves Iraq, the nation will degenerate further into madness and lethal civil war..That view seems to presuppose that the US presence is currently acting like cosmic glue to keep the nation unified against chaos. In other words- it presupposes that the US presence is currently having a positive effect. That needs to be carefully and objectively examined- because it is the question that most determines what we should do next.
Those who gratuitously asume that things will get worse when we leave are just creating a demon to justify the status quo. Of course it is also illogical to assume that things will get better. We need some facts here- and no one can be trusted to collect em.
rw @ 231
You missed it. it was Hilter, not Hitler, that I was asking about. (Hitler I know about.)
holy cow!
block buster post from steve clemens…
tanbark at 264 — Do go back and read what I wrote. The tactical maneuver and not having the votes? I get that. The prancing around and trying to turn a sows ear into a silk purse? Bad tactics, bad PR and bad for the rest of us, period. But maybe that’s just my little old naivite speaking.
Well, and the half a million dollars and solid turnout of volunteer campaign boots on the ground for a buttload of Democratic candidates we helped put into play in the last election, even when the DCCC and the DSCC couldn’t be bothered. I mean, gosh, we have these political chats as well as conference calls all the time, but clearly I never understand a word of them because I’m too naive to know big words like “capitulation” and “no public tapdance because the public is in no mood to buy it” or other such really hard political bits and pieces.
But silly me, I don’t understand how we did that. Maybe some giant intellect can explain strategy to me and every other Democratic strategist who has been telling them for weeks behind the scenes not to play it that way. Gosh, I’m so weak-minded, perhaps I was hearing all those folks incorrectly. I wish I could have a solid thought once in a while in my pretty little head, but politics is just too hard for me.
Jeebus. You have got to be fucking kidding me that you try to twist my words and think that will be sufficient. Golly, aren’t I chastened?
oddmommy @ 290
I’ll be right behind you! :)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 249
Oh God, talk about voter suppression. That ticket will keep us home in droves. You know, I think they ** get it, but they’d rather have their game than save the nation.
So, who wants to run for Congress? I’ll work and, if legal, vote for any vertebrate who will end the war.
yesterday was the last straw. I’m really pissed. Will be working on putting together evidence and lines of questions for Moschella, McNulty, Sampson (again), Jennings, Miers and Rove.
So what this says is that we should abandon efforts that sometimes work and sometimes don’t to reform the Democratic party — and we clearly made progress in the last election — but at least there is an organized effort to do so and Rayne’s efforts that that of many others shows that we can make a difference, over time. The argument also says we should join the “independents,” for whom there is no organized effort, no organizational structure, and no credible candidate, and no prospect of changing anything.
Last I checked, as a Democrat I sill have the power to withold my money if they don’t respect my values. So even that that claimed “benefit” of being “independent” doesn’t give me a thing I don’t already have.
Even someone with straw for brains can make this choice.
PJ
Sorry- I’m frequently dense.
Ah, poor you. You are stuck in one of the idiot states. I am in an idiot state of a different kind (reddish Indiana) but it is GOOD in that I don’t have to declare a party affiliation. They don’t even ask on your voter registration forms.
Me, I refuse to give money to ANY Dem Party official apparatus (including Dean’s) and ONLY give to individual candidates, to MoveOn, to various ActBlue campaigns, etc. I keep telling the dickheads on the phone from the DCCC, DSCC, etc, that I do NOT support them and why but the asshats still call (kinda like NARAL keeps harrassing me and I have to keep telling them that in NO WAY will I EVER give them a dime again since they are responsible for Alito being on the SCOTUS).
For you, since you wish to vote in primaries from which you would otherwise be denied, then simply pledge NOT to give money to any Democratic Party organizations. Only give to individual candidates and outside, independent orgs like MoveOn, etc. You can probably trust Feingold’s Progressive Patriots Fund too.
scarecrow @ 301
A heart
Some noive!
My party, the Democratic Party, is playing a very dangerous game.
HotFlash @ 240
I would suggest two suspects. First the Bin Laden family who have explosive experience through their construction company. Second, Pakistan, whose government gave the hijacker Atta $100,000 just before the WTC attack.
selise @ 298
Cheney is the anti-Christ. IMO.
Lets see now. Pelosi carries the water for the “cave-in” and then says she’ll vote against it?
Redd
I know you don’t need to hear this- but I admire your practical political instincts. More than most anyone here, you always seem to do a great job of balancing the moral imperitive with the politically possible. I very much enjoy reading your thoughts.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 258
This is standard boilerplate. Critical time equals a turning point. The rest is the old the insurgents are so desperate in the face of our successes that violence will increase.
As I was thinking [and fuming] about the Dems’ pitiful performance on this issue, one explanation occurred to me: one of the Dem “leaders” is Rahm Emmanuel, who, as we all know, is just dying to get back into the WH via Hillary Clinton. I don’t think it’s beyond crazy to speculate that Rahm doesn’t WANT the Dems to pass a “strong,” get out of Iraq now bill that is too far from Hillary’s thinking. I.e., that this whole kabuki is aimed at 2008, and doesn’t give a thought to those who will die between now and then.
Just a thought. But I do like the idea of tallying every death. I think the MSM should do a story on one death or disability PER DAY between now & Nov 08.
And yesterday Clinton and Obama essentially said wrt the cave in: ‘we don’t know what to say’.
rw at 313 — Thanks much. I needed that today. *G*
Tanbark @ 271
I think there three major problems with this argument.
1. We don’t know what’ll happen if we leave, but we don’t know what’ll happen if we stay, either, and we have plenty of reason to believe it will be worse: war on Iran
2. The public won’t give a shit about Iraq; they just want our army out.
3. Worrying about Republican scapegoating of Democrats is like worrying about the rain falling. You’ve been whipped if it enters your head as a consideration.
The political benefits of defunding wouldn’t be immediate (they might even be detrimental in the short term, as you suggest, especially as the media will distort the matter), but when troops actually start returning next year, then it will.
Though this is all moot, I think there’s some cold consolation for everyone: events will dictate matters — we aren’t as a nation immune to the laws of history and of warfare and we can’t just keep an army in Iraq forever. It’s a shame Steve Gilliard isn’t well enough to remind us of that.
I’m with the pissed-off redheaded mommy.
Feel free to call me a Democrat insurgent.
rwcole @ 308
amen.
Suppose you’re in WWII and you’re tanks are driving across France, defeating the Germans as you go. But there’s this little problem at Bastogne, where the regrouped Germans have one of our main units bottled up. You have a choice: continue driving across France because you’re defeating the Germans and may get to Germany, or stop, head towards Bastogne, and go cover your other flank.
Sometimes, going directly at the target is a mistake, and you have to reposition and cover you flanks before you regain the initiative.
For those who think that they know what will happen in Iraq.
Read this from Asia Times.
It talks about Al Sadr’s efforts to bring in Sunnis into his sphere of influence to form a united bloc against Al Qaeda and the US.
Remember those protests a few months ago at his behest. Notice the pictures of the protests. Lot’s of Iraqi national flags, no big pictures of Al Sadr.
Remember the enemy of my enemy.
-GSD
As to Cheney, this human sac of pus will be the ruin of America.
I wonder if anyone plans to do some polling over the holiday? I wonder if they will ask would you vote fot ANY democrat who supported this bill? I wonder how many Democrat Presidential candidates are going to vote for this bill. Keith O was right the Democratic Primary gets decided now! Biden is finished Hilary and Obama better start talking AGAINST this bill in the press BEFORE the vote. Voting No! is not going to be enough Bush is laughing at the Democratic Front Runners right now and quite honestly I agree with him this chicken $hit Democratic Party needs new leaders and front runners! On the Bright side Bill Richardson and the real antiwar cadidates will probably move up in the polls.
TiredFed @ 304
You worked really, really hard and put together terrific questions. Given the frustration I felt yesterday (and I wrote no good questions, but recognized bad questioning when I saw it) I can’t imagine your anger. Good on ya for starting again!
Tula has a post up for some fresh reading, gang. Lots of thought-provoking info in it — hope you’ll stop by and give it a read.
President Bush told NBC reporter David Gregory at a Rose Garden news conference today that terrorists are a “threat to your children, David.” The President’s reaction came after Gregory asked him why he should be considered a credible source on terror intelligence.
Tanbark @ 269
So do you believe we should remain in Iraq forever, then?
Yes, Iraq is going to be a disaster for a good long time after we leave, and then at some point the civil war there will end and it will probably have a government and society that won’t be very pretty or favorable to U.S. interests. Is that clear-eyed enough for you?
It’s not a question of what will happen if we leave, it’s a question of what will happen when we leave, because we are going to leave. Unless you believe that by staying another year, or five, or ten, that we can do anything other than slow down how quickly that happens, and that there is nothing better for our security and our national interest that we could be doing with many soldiers’ lives and billions of dollars a week, that’s not an argument for staying.
And what change of conditions do you think would result in the Republicans not trying to blame the Democrats for ending it, or being less successful at doing that? Worsening conditions? That’s been happening steadily for nearly four years. A Democratic president? “President Bush stood strong, but the craven Dem cut and ran.”
Republican attacks have nothing to do with reality. There is no set of conditions that can be created that will prevent them from attacking, from blaming others for their failures. The successful change of strategy in 2006 was from trying to be something they couldn’t attack to standing up forcefully for what we believe in. That’s what we need more of.
S.O.S. from MA @ 277
First off, thanks for not quoting my entire msg! (: and I’m sure the server is also grateful :) … My first reaction is that our own “noise machine” doesn’t have nearly the carrying power as the Mighty Republican Wurlitzer… Could you amplify a bit on the computer forensic standards that can stand up in a court of law, and how they might be relevant in this sort of case? Serious question, unserious answers OK :)
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Standards have been developed with regard to searching a HD for pornography, particularly when dealing with pedophiles. Most police depts will have a computer forensic expert available for that. Encase Forensics is one, I beleive there are others.
The same software that looks for porn can also look for e-mails. What you would need though is physical access to the HD or to the server in question, and a court order of course. Because the RNC would scream bloody murder without one.
If Palasts emails are sensational enough they could possibly raise hell so that a formal investigation could be started. That would be my hope.
You know this is a hysterically funny statement. The Republicans had 6 years where they controlled everything (with one brief hiccup) and it is only when they lose that they suddenly find their “values”. It is to laugh.
Regarding Iran, if you have not read this, please do -
http://blogs.abcnews.com/thebl…..rizes.html
Make sure you click on a link that shows you where all the old Iran-Contra players are right now.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 327
Bush is reprehensible human being. His fear-mongering is criminal.
-GSD
roger that.
selise @ 184
I concur. Criticism and accountability are fully bipartisan requirements.
Christy, you are a stronger person than I, I must say. I’m feeling so defeated. Nothing worse than to have high hopes dashed again. (Charlie Brown, Lucy, football).
To find something worthy and proactive to do on the individual level is a great idea and thanks for the wonderful ideas. I needed a little shove to get mobilized again.
Great post. Soldier on, firepups.
What Redshift said.
TeddySanFran @ 295
This cannot be repeated enough.
Mission Accomplished.
End the Iraqi occupation.
PJ Evans @164 -
Thank You for the link. I just tried to send Madam Speaker my thoughts. The site must be overloaded, because my comment didn’t upload & I finally got an error message. I will resubmit it.
Then again, maybe it’s my computer, since 9 time out of 10, it freezes up when I try to pull up FDL (& just FDL?) so I’m rarely able to read posts here.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 327
Then why aren’t your children in the army fighting them, George?
scarecrow @ 322
It’s what the Russians did to the Germans all the time in the course of reconquering half of European Russia and all of Eastern Europe. You don’t want to cite the U.S. Army for imaginative military tactics, unless you’re a court flatter like Stephen Ambrose. I recommend an excellent book on the last year of WWII called “Armageddon”, by a guy named Hastings.
scarecrow @ 322
And sometimes the lotus flowers only for itself.
Sorry, I couldn’t resist. It sounded so zen, even if I do agree with in part, which is why I am clapping for it with only one hand.
brendan @ 172
Hooo, lordie! As someone who campaigned for Dean in 2003, it is amazing to see someone so pissed at Edwards. I, too, was extremely pissed at him for his vote to authorize the war. But taking into consideration his mea culpa on his vote (and, believe me, I have no illusions about why he voted the way he did) and the timing of said mea culpa, I decided to give him a pass. After having my own candidate eviscerated by the media, I was sufficiently chastised to understand that idealism and righteous anger only go so far.
We have to take our Democratic cod liver oil from time to time, such as swallowing this funding bill. I’ve had to put aside idealism and ire and learn patience. It’s hard, I know, believe me no one knows better than I the bitter taste of that political cod liver oil and the tears that follow. But I feel we have to take what we have and make the best of it, putting on the pressure as warranted. This is all my personal opinion based on experience, of course, I’m not telling you how to feel. Your outrage is understandable. I lived with it for years and I guess folks can tell that I still harbor a certain degree of resentment from 2003/4.
BTW, I think this bill and Edwards’ response to it is going to really give Edwards a boost. And, yes, believe me, I’m cynical enough to understand how easy it is for him to speak out, now that he is no longer in the Senate.
As for me, I am still not ready to get starry-eyed about any candidate. I doubt I ever will again. But I will make my decision a well-informed one when the time comes and hope for the best.
This Iran thing is cruisin towards a blow up apparently. Lots of “leaks” in the press- many of em contradictory. Can’t really tell what’s goin down- but it don’t look good.
Time to show America why we should lead unlike the Republicans who oppose the war but still support Bush I’m betting we will kick out our “supposed leaders” for being prowar sheep in disguise! Reed, Pelosi I mean you You Gotta Go. I think Maxine Waters might be good for Speaker of the House, I will wait for after the vote for a Senate pick!
I can’t believe Bush is publicly threatening Gregory’s children. They are afraid of his reporting.
oddmommy @ 333
Exhibit A: McCain claiming Rs lost seats last election because of congressional spending…???
Would that be congressional spending in the baghdad marketplace?
HotFlash @ 338
He solved the threat to his children by sending the children of others. That’s how the Bushinator thinks.
Time to get out the “rubber stamps” and start handing them out to Hillary, Obama, Biden and all the other Yellow-Dog Democrats.
Just like Bill Clinton, they are competing to be the most-palatable Republican president ever.
Wordsmith @ 260
You’re welcome! I have a vision of thousands of these postcards cascading over the desks of all the Senators and Representatives.
(BTW – I checked with the Post Office and they say sending postcards to Congress is ok — it’s letters that go through the security system.)
egregious @ 344
Naw, Gregory occasionally asks a tough question but in his reporting he has always shown himself to be a Bush poodle.
Yeah gettin starry eyed about parties or candidates can only cloud your judgement. They’re all politicians and will behave as such when push comes to shove. When they behave in the ways that drive us nuts- they’re doin their job- like a lawyer lyin her ass off to save her client’s. It’s the game.
They weren’t put on this earth to be admirable.
Mandrake at #340:
I wasn’t being a starry eyed idealist. I was also defending Pelosi up above (even if that might turn out to be naive). I don’t know what came over me about Edwards (especially as I might vote for him over the others) — but it’s just that he has no alternative but to take this current position and that when he did have choices, and real power in the Senate, he also made a crudely ulterior and cowardly, and stupid, political decision.
By the way, I gave money, for the first time in my life to a political candidate, to Dean in 2004.
Gregory asked a question Bush couldn’t answer so he made a gratuitous threat. That ain’t news. That’s who he is.
rwcole @ 341
I’ve been dreading the same thing. I hope all the reports are coincidental, but there have been a flurry of them.
In some areas of work, the above is called “rationalization”. It is what people do to try to justify either their own personal failings or the failings of those they have so much emotionally and/or economically invested in.
For those not prone (or on particular guard against) rationalization, the behavior is seen not as a “strategic withdrawal” or even “tactical withdrawal” but rather is seen as moral cowardice, lack of ethics, criminal negligence, stupidity, or insanity (or some mixture of all of the above). I am in the “all of the above camp”. The Dems have done, and will CONTINUE to do what they have always done over the last 8 years or so: cave in, cower, line their own pockets at the expense of the country, etc. This is worse than what the Republicans do because the Republicans are flat-out KNOWN for what they are. The Dems, on the other hand, like to try to claim some higher moral ground or speak of lofty national goals…while all the while they are planning in the dark back rooms to steal and run.
They are NOT our friends and you MUST get that idea out of your head. They are merely a group of criminals that are, more or less, able to be forced in one direction or another that, by pure happenstance, corresponds with what WE the People need and desire…but they MUST be forced to act thus and are prone to backsliding to wildtype if not continually zapped with a shock collar. They are NOT the good guys. They have to be continually prodded to do the right thing…and need to be PUNISHED when they fail to do the right thing.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 296
Yeah, if anyone doesn’t believe that, one need look no further than the last primaries when Kerry was crammed down our throats. The one man, besides McCain, who should have known better than anyone else in the Senate the monumental consequences of his decision to authorize the Iraq war. He knew the incredible waste of life and treasure that would ensue and the horrors of war. Having spoken out against the Vietnam war upon returning, I have never understood his position other unless I view it in a deeply cynical, political light. Surely, he of all people, should have vetted this thing with a fine-toothed comb before voting and it is obvious he did not.
But, of course, he was foisted upon me by the DLC because he was their man and, as I mentioned above, I burned with resentment over this. I realize now how incredibly long it takes the public to wise up and the politicians are way behind the people, so prepare for a 2 mph ride.
egregious @ 343
Our prez is such a…jerk. I notice he didn’t answer the question, just threatened the kids to get a rise out of Gregory.
Anyone else think these manuevers are to provoke something so our anti war generals will have to fall in line. I really hate this.
rwcole @ 350
A lawyer is bound to defend her client by contract and professional ethics. A politician is loyal to, well, to who? I thought the oath was to protect and defend the Constitution.
rwcole @ 342
Yep.
When you have every secret service in the world playing games and everyone in the world pumping a region full of weapons and everyone trying to out dickswing the other. It is all tinder box time.
All it will take is one incident to get the ball rolling. Be that incident an actual accident or an engineered event.
This summer comes the unraveling.
-GSD
There’s a new thread up past the commercial.
Only getting a quick stop-by today during my lunch – was the procedure they’re thinking of using so it doesn’t appear Dems voted for the funding discussed?
I usually see Carl Levin in a Memorial Day Parade. Boy, I hope he walks in the parade again this year! I’ve got an earful to give him.
It may be time to get over how various people voted on the original authorization of force.
They figured that the damned thing was going to pass anyway- so they had no moral reason for not voting politically- and there was a very good chance that the thing would go down as easily as Afghanistan and that they would cut off any possibility of future presidential hopes if they voted against it.
They were just wrong.
Kerry was spectacularly wrong- voting AGAINST
Afghanistan and then (realizing that he looked stupid) FOR Iraq.
We’ve all been wrong before. Let’s give this one up. Execting politicians to be omnicient is a losing game.
brendan @ 350
brendan, good for you, comrade! Hillary did the same thing as Edwards except that she never admitted she made a mistake and she has supported the war on and on, only criticizing the way it has been run. I have to go for the lesser of two evils. I just feel like I have no choice. I am not saying, however, I will vote for him, but I most definitely will not be voting for Hillary in the primaries.
Praedor Atrebates @ 354
While I agree that not everyone with a D after their name is a friendly, how do you plan to administer the oh-so-authoritarian ‘punishment’ that you urge?
brendan @ 243
You said it better than I did @ 178, brendan. What I didn’t say there, was that I’ve spoken to many who WANT war, and killing, and even mass extermination of entire regions in the middle east. I’ve had people in the military tell me we should turn it into glass…every last man, woman & child, young or old (a nuclear holocaust). I’ve also talked with military & contractors who are just loving the money, whether large amounts or small. And I stopped trying to talk sense to them. Instead, I realized it is not their call to make; it is our’s as a nation to make.
When it’s all said & done, I remain committed to ending the war. I’ve managed to keep my compassion towards those who want out but don’t have the power to get themselves out. But I won’t shed a tear for those who accept it, enjoy it, profit from it, or politicize it rhetorically as you rightfully note. Rather, I remind them that they’re now part of the minority, and that in a democracy, the minority does not rule.
Praedor Atrebates @ 176
Excellent analysis, IMHO. And if, as someone else mentioned previously, Bush is in Iran by September, then the escalation we all feared previous to the election in 2006 will have come while the Dems stood around doing nothing. People who gave them a chance in 2006 won’t do so again. The case against them will be if they didn’t have the guts to stand up to a guy with 30% approval then how can you trust them to stand up to Iran, etc.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 301
Hey, whatever you’re having, I’m having. I’ll buy, treat on me, mom to mom.
I’m personally thinking about a nice, cool Jamocha Mudslide smoothie. Mmm-mmm.
Right after the next load of laundry.
Gang — once the comments level begins to get close to 400, the server starts to lag. If everyone could please check out Tula’s post above, or move to the prior thread from this one, it would be much appreciated. Otherwise, we’re going to end up having to close the comments to keep the servers from crashing. The WordPress comment load is too heavy past 400 or so for daytime traffic levels. (Sorry! One of these days our genius computer folks will figure a way around that but for now, we work with what we have.)
brendan – PS, I became politically active, for the first time in my life, in 2004 for Dean. While I still try to do my part, I cannot imagine ever campaigning for anyone again. I was most definitely an idealist and that just got beaten out of me with a club labeled “DLC.”
GSD @ 332
I wish Gregory would have responded with: and So are you Mr. President.
Hard to say about the “troops” but I would suppose that they have the same diversity of opinions about the war as everyone else- and like everyone else- the trend is probably toward “get the fuck out”. Just a guess.
GSD @ 358
This link may be a bit stale, but I uncritically grasped at it as a cause for optimism when I happened across it at boomantribune. It’s an “Asia Times” article saying Fallon was put in by Gates to say fuck you to Bush’s plan to attack Iran.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/M…..7Ak03.html
Well, I’m on my way to Saint-Petersburg to do some research into the period leading up to the Russian Revolution.
We are very close to paralleling what they went through in those days. We have two parties that are different in name only. The members elected are serving to ensure that the system under which they profit continues while the rest of the country suffers under a deluded administration that does what it wants to do while controlling every outlet of information and prosecutes a needless war which is draining all the resources, both human and fiscal, from this great country.
Six weeks is a long time to go away but I’m anxious to get away from this facade of a resistance to the madness of King George.
Good luck, folks….have fun watching these spineless Democrats betray us over and over and over……..
spurious @ 223
Integrity. If you say you are going to d something then do it.
Hugh @ 341
OTOH some of us wake up and ask:
What would Hitler do?
You direct your money and vote elsewhere. You join forces with others to put up a primary challenger. You write letters to the editor against the unethical toad. You flood them with emails and faxes and phonecalls to express you anger and displeasure AND inform them that you are backing a primary challenger because of X. You attempt to embarrass them at public gatherings by forcing them to defend the indefensible (their voting record).
In an ideal world, politicians would have fewer rights than citizens and would be able to be punched, slapped, pied, tomatoed, etc, with impunity…
[Mod Note: you do know that we take a very dim view of advocating violence against public officials? In this case, we’re going to assume you meant this as a metaphor. Please don’t think we will take the same view the next time.]
Redd
OK– guess this conversation is about over. Tough to give up discussing the Iraq funding issue as it’s the only thing on most of our minds today. Global trade will be interesting another day.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 249
You sure know how to ruin a perfectly good day
JH
rwcole @ 360
I still don’t think it’s idealistic to expect them to to carefully weigh the moral implications before voting to authorize a president to take us to war. Sanctioning pre-emptive war is serious, serious business. It can’t just be tossed off as a political miscalculation b/c it turned out to be a disaster. They knew people would die needlessly.
It’s just not your typical, everyday, ho-hum vote.
That said, as I stated earlier, I have had to let resentment go on this issue. But I will never believe such a vote should be taken lightly or forgotten easily by the public, not when people are going to die as a result.
rwcole @ 351
I wish Gregory would stop allowing himself to be Bush’s b**ch.
drake
Well the question Gregory asked that sparked the Clusterfuck response was hardly respectful of his majesty’s position.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 156
Dear Christy.
Quite simply, you put too much effort into your blogging.
That being said, may I urge you:
PLEASE keep doing exactly as you’re doing.
The laundry can wait…
We luvs ya gal ;->
In a nutshell, Gregory was sayin: “You have no credibility about Iraq cause you’ve lied so much- why should anyone believe anything you say now?”
In order to maintain a balanced load on the servers, we need to close comments on this thread. Sorry, but please join us on one of the other threads.
Thanks.
Its not our “Two front runners” we need to think about – we need to think about supporting someone who upholds our ideals.
We need to think about Edwards for President. And his first place in Iowa is a good start. I am in NH and getting people on board for him.
Is it all talk? Dunno – but as a citizen I refuse to allow political games and accept these gymnastics – as a citizen its my duty to say what I want and to heck with Reps and Dems selling out (for “political reality”).
How many games have Republicans played with parlimentary moves over the last 6 years. I am sure there are moves that could get defunding done if it was supported by the majority of losers in congress, as well as the vast majority of us loser out here in the real world.