Okay, so where are we at with Iraq now? Let's see… the Democrats have decided to give Dubya his war funding with no strings attached, the surge escalation is doubling, and Plan B if that double-down doesn't work (inconceivable!) is apparently to go back to Baker-Hamilton, or maybe start a war with Iran.
Fantastic. Junior just had to prove that he could tie his shoelaces All By Himself without Poppy's help, and now his pants have fallen down and he's peeing all over the carpet (and shitting all over the bed) – which makes the prospect of having to tie his shoelaces for him a lot less appealing.
But I digress into unsavory and incoherent metaphor. What I mainly wanted to do was recap my voter's-eye view of the Iraq funding resolution, and offer up a possible solution, which is probably wildly naive and unrealistic.
First, the recap:
BUSH: I need money to keep my war going. I'm the war president and you'll do what I say.
DEMOCRATS: No, the American people want us out of Iraq, so you can only have your war money with withdrawal deadlines attached.
BUSH: Don't wanna. You can't make me.
DEMOCRATS. Oh. Okay. Guess we'll have to give you exactly what you want, then. But we sure did register our strong preference for withdrawal before, didn't we? High five!
AMERICAN VOTERS: Why did we vote for these guys again?
Yeah, I understand that there are political realities, fragile coalitions, various Blue Dogs and Nelsons, skittishness about "not funding the troops," all that stuff. But here's my thought: What if the Democratic leadership didn't have to worry about holding their skinny antiwar coalition together? A majority of Senators and Representatives voted for a funding resolution with timelines once, right? And Dubya vetoed it because he figured he could use his veto and his phony funding deadline to badger the Democrats into giving him his money with no strings attached.
Well, what if he couldn't? What if all the Democrats (and handful of Republicans) who voted for timetables the first time around signed a pledge to their constituents and the American people, a blood oath that they would never vote against any funding resolution with comparable terms, and that they would never vote for any funding resolution with weaker terms? (Needless to say, they would be free to vote for one with stronger terms.)
If the Democrats-Plus coalition declared their absolute opposition to the war and made it clear that all the presidential vetos and artificial deadlines in the world would not sway them, then I think Dubya would eventually have to cave in order to keep his precious war going. Of course, the tricky part would be getting everyone to sign the pledge, but I think it's at least possible if the anti-war congresscritters knew that they wouldn't get hung out to dry by anyone else changing their vote, and that all their signatures would make Dubya think twice about using his veto. And it couldn't hurt to remind them that, oh yeah, EVERYONE HATES THE WAR and they would have to explain to their constituents why they were for the war after they were against it.
On the other hand, the worst-case scenario would be that Dubya calls their bluff and just keeps vetoing, and lets the troops run out of food and bullets and fuel so he can blame it on the Democrats. He may very well be the only president in history who would be capable of such a tactic. I'm not sure it would work, but the Republicans and corporate media would certainly do their part to sell it.
I guess it's too late for the Democrats to sign the pledge now, but perhaps they should consider it when The Final Friedman expires in September. Unfortunately, if the Republicans are true to their word (ha!), then the inevitable lack of progress would let them ride to the rescue as the heroic war-ending Sensible Republicans, sealing the deal that that Ineffectual Democrats could not or would not. Yes, it's an unfair frame, but the media would eat it up, and it would suck all the air out of the Democratic campaigns in 2008. We cannot afford to let the Republicans be the heroes after five years of villainy.
(Photo is a dramatic re-enactment of the current Republican-Democrat dynamic on Iraq, using adorable kittens)



389 Comments












Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Firedoglake
ZeD☼
If it weren’t for FDL I wouldn’t know how to deal with all the crap the dems were dishing of late.
Zed?
Hi Eli,
I just jumped into the lake!
Hiya, lolo, so did I…
lolo @ 1
Yes, but I got the previous one. :)
kittehs !!
(now to read)
From reading the previous threads and comments, I’m thinking that there might not be some real strategists in our midst. This is not a criticism. An observation. When evaluating the current Iraq bill and the so-called concessions that are all over the tubes and teevee, think pok*r people.
Eli, war ended long ago. This here is an OCCUPATION.
ELI!
Mods…ooops! Forgot that p*k*r needed to be altered. My bad. Will you please fix?
It’s really discouraging when these guys and gals lose their collective huevos. It makes the Dems look weaker and feeds right into the frame of them being weak. Hell, even Jimmy Carter lost his nerve.
I long for the day when America has the government it needs instead of the one it deserves.
50% of the US voters who voted in 2004, and every Blue Dog Democrat who refuses to stand up to Bush needs a good hard kick to the kiester.
Real people are dying and the limpd1ck jellyfish can’t even give 28% the middle finger.
Bush doesn’t want a bill with deadlines?
Screw him. Debate the bill into 2008 and put the Generals on the ground into the hotseat. If those Bushblowers refuse to pull troops out when the money runs out, blame *them* for the deaths and injuries that come.
Bush wants to pass the buck, doesn’t mean the Democrats need to be left holding it.
Eli,
Thank you for this:
It’s the only laugh I’ve had all day.
TexBetsy @ 6
I see ((lolo)) is back in the saddle, congrats TB, oh, and, ELI!!!!!
I hadn’t seen it commented on but someone in the White House this weekend said Bush would veto any funding bill with timetables in it, even though he would not bed bound by them.
Where is he going to get the money if such a thing would come to pass? It’s the ultimate constitutional crisis, or would be. It will never happen of course, He’d never sign and now we know he won’t have the chance again to.
How it would work is that Bush would tell Treasury to write the checks and they would. Paulson doesn’t give a shit about the constitution, he wants financial asset prices to rise and that’s all. Enf of story, end of constitution, again.
Maybe the dems are actually protecting the troops.. Bush’s head is in the sand and he won’t budge until there is a veto proof majority in the Senate and House and he has already shown that he could care less about equipment for the troops, so maybe the dems are protecting the troops and should be shouting it loudly and proudly. Maybe then Repubs will cross over…and then we can have the votes to pull out.
Gore…calms the soul
Interesting what he said..that its too soon to be running for President…500 days left.
Hope the book comes soon
I am a Democrat. Does that mean I am a member of the Stupid Party? I’m thinking yes.
The American people got beat today. There’s no sugar to put on this.
Yes, we are ahead of where I projected we would be six months ago, but we squandered opportunity and weakened a strong hand, letting momentum slip away.
We need to hold people accountable, and that includes Democrats. It especially includes those who would wish to be president, because presidential primaries are where parties determine what they stand for in the contemporary climate, and determine where they are going.
I encourage our readers to get involved for the primary candidate they think best stands up for their values, even if we don’t get into the details of the presidential primary beat here at FDL.
We also must continue to use Blue America and other vehicles to propel real progressives from the grass roots up, taking over the party, dismpowering the Hoyers of the world. Please get involved locally and help us continue our long term project of taking back the country.
I’m too angry to be very cheerful right now. I’m just too angry. It’s best I don’t say too much.
Eli, you are dead on, the Prez vetoed it, not congress, stuff it down his throat again, what’s the Prob?!!!
Gore/Edwards. ‘08.
I feel your pain, Pach.
If Harry Reid had only unzipped his pants and told Bush on camera to ‘blow me’, I’d respect him a lot more then I do today.
I regret this comment, but…
The dems are going to take a beating over this capitulation. And it will be deserved. The message is going to get across that the dems are weak and cowardly. And, for the life of me, I can’t figure out how to argue that.
kdh22 @ 8
I’d like you expand on your thesis, please. Preferably without insulting the frontpage posters and commentariat, if possible. Are you suggesting that we are not the strategists, and that DeeCee Dems have some strategy as yet unrevealed?
If so, what do you suggest that might be?
solai @ 23
My problem exactly. Even if they rally in September, people will file this away as yet another point in the Dems-are-weak dataset.
I am so pissed about the Iraq debacle and the international trade cave-in, I e-mailed Speaker Pelosi to point out the only way 2008 won’t be a Democratic tsunami is if the public can’t tell the difference between Democrats and Republicans.
Now is the time to draw bright lines. We can lose now, and win BIG later.
“Sometimes when you lose, you win.”
A commenter over at TPM Cafe said this was all due to Lieberman — he threatened to switch parties and cost the Dems the majority in the Senate if the Dems held firm — anyone know if this is true? Anyone close to the Connecticut situation know more?
Compare the difference in Gore speaking intelligently to King, and Bush speaking to anyone.
Eli!
In Chicago, the hardhats fought against the hippies.
In Seattle, the hardhats and the hippies beat the WTO.
In Congress they’ve beaten up on the unions, the hippies – and the Dem activists.
In Denver, the hippies, the Steelworkers, and the rest of us will beat up on the Democratic Congress.
The convention?
Collateral damage.
Of course, it’s not too late for the DNC to follow the WTO after Seattle…
and hold next year’s convention in Dubai.
(Fierce party loyalists as they are – if the DNC did switch the convention to Dubai, they’d leave the logistics to Halliburton.)
Just wrote up some thoughts on courage–not about the Democrats, but about the event I attended last night.
TeddySanFran @ 24
So… the Democrats giving Dubya everything he wants is a clever bluff of some sort? Please, tell me more.
The last time I heard that line of crap, we wound up with 2 Bushworshipping perjured Supreme Court Justices.
The powder isn’t getting any drier and its meant to be used.
Today is Harvey Milk’s 77th birthday, or would have been….
TeddySanFran @ 25
Fineman used the p*ker analogy on KO earlier and said that he would love to play it with the dems. They kept putting their chips into the kitty and then folded. Yes, I know it came from Fineman, but it is hard for me not to agree with him on this.
dandelion @ 27
Hagel and Smith more than cancel out Lieberman, at least on Iraq. They had the votes before. Everyone who voted for the timetables before and wouldn’t vote for them today should have to explain that when they run for re-election. Repeatedly.
I have to confess that I really don’t understand the “political reality” here. We’re talking about an unpopular president who wants carte blanche to continue an unpopular war, one that he’s been fucking up for the past four years. That’s what I’ll call the “plain reality” of the situation.
Why is the “political reality” that the Dems, who control both houses of Congress, have to give the president everything he wants? What color is the sky in that world?
Green, same as the money going into the DLC’s ‘consultant’ pockets.
Horsewhip the lot of them.
dandelion @ 28
His switching wouldn’t do much. The organizing rules have given the committee chairs all to dems except for him and are stated by name. LIEberman is pretty irrelevant at this point in time except in his own estimation of himself.
rapier @ 15
You’re wrong, Rapier, Shrub can’t just order the Treasury to cut a check!!! The House, and only the House may appropriate and authorize Monies to be spent!!! Shrub may divert within Dod, and from offbook (clandestine)funds, but, no other fundage is available until the House appropriates it, Period!!!
Ron Paul is live from the floor right now. 1span
Fineman looked like the Chesire cat, because he was first off the mark with the stupid-bad-card-playing-Dems meme.
I had 2 email requests for donations just now. Replied to both w/ no donation just a negative comment. Not sure, though, that the reply goes through to these automated requests. I hope so. I need them to know why there was no cash.
Going over to buy another t-shirt from John Edwards. I have an urgent need to think someone is on my side.
Frank Probst @ 36
The problematic political reality is that
A) There are Democrats who cannot be counted on to vote for withdrawal deadlines, and
B) There is a very real fear that if they don’t give Bush a funding bill that he won’t veto (i.e., a funding bill with anything less than everything he wants), that they’ll take the blame for not funding the troops.
An excellent post, Eli. Unfortunately your recap pretty much says it all.
This day started so well w/the SJC Habeas Corpus hearing, but it’s been straight down the crapper since then. Been playing catch up w/all the FDL posts & comments for about an hr. Fingers crossed for tomorrow’s Monica hearing, but I’m afraid it’ll take more than luck to get anything of substance out of her testimony. I hope I’m proved wrong…
Off to cheer myself up (hopefully) watching the Spurs-Jazz game.
Made perfect sense to me.
TeddySanFran @ 35
I was living in the City when Mr. Milk was murdered by that wing-nut psycho. The Twinkie man.
Frank Probst @ 38
The curdled, liverish color of Rovian blackmail, courtesy of illegal NSA wiretaps.
i cannot take much more of this – america gave dems the vote to stop the war – of course its not easy but – goddamn take a stand and hold it! if gore had displayed this much forcefulness while running – we’d be into HIS 6th year of running the country……
Perhaps we should pass a hat to take up a collection for spine transplants to the Democratic Party.
bush whines – dems cave………
I have one question for the Democratic Party. Why in the hell should I vote for any of your worthless hides again?
That is all.
phule@50
hear hear lol
kdh22 @ 8
Thanks for the opening…
Russ Feingold just quoted me over at kos…
(jumps up and down) That was me! That was me!
seepeesate @ 53
Surely you know it’s actually Nader’s fault they lost this vote?
kirk murphy @ 53
It’s actually Nader’s fault that they even *had* this vote…
Never happen, Harry Reid has all the backbone of a limp piece of celery.
That is exactly what he would do, and he would have the mighty whiritzer and the media pundits, backing him up and repeating his talking points.
Sooner or later this illegal, criminal administration will force either this senario or one like it.
Listen to Gore…feel better
Meteor Blades has a good response to this;
Channel Your Fury
Last 3 graphs:
This is what ticks me off more than any other thing. Even dems are saying they can’t not fund the troops. WTF…are they brainwashed by repub talking points. YOU DID FUND THE TROOPS.
Boy King vetoed it. But, we’ll never get that point across if the dems keep saying ‘need to fund the troops’
noen @ 55
Let Feingold collect the signatures, then. And Pelosi or Murtha in the House.
Pain? More like searing, burning, so-hot-it’s-cold rage.
what? reid cant get fellow dems to do a goal-line stand? at least offer some resistance…
Eli @ 44
Okay, then that handful of Dems and all the Repubs can pass their own “blank check” bill. I don’t see why we have to be the ones to do it.
The Dems are going to get blamed for not supporting the troops regardless of what happens. After the 2002 elections, you’d think they would have figured that out by now.
Did anyone hear about the border patrol getting sent to Iraq?
lolo @ 65
The nat’l guard ones or the other guys?
I’m ANGRY at the failure of the Democrats to hold to mandated benchmarks for the Iraqis and BUSH in this GODDAMNED WAR!
Don’t these guys realize that every day, every mnth more that they extend this out there will be cases like the following.
http://www.news10.net/display_…..ryid=28105
“The family of Army Pvt. First Class Alex Varela is mourning his death. According to Varela’s mother, Rinda Pope of Orangevale, Alex was killed on Saturday in Baghdad when the tank he was driving hit an anti-tank mine that was exploded by insurgents.
“It flipped the Bradley over upside down,” said Pope. Varela’s army buddies told her that the attack killed six U.S. soldiers and one interpreter who were conducting patrols in Baghdad neighborhoods.
Pope added that her son recently told her that every time the military stopped violence in one neighborhood, it would spring up elsewhere. “He said no matter what neighborhood he got in to and cleaned up and quieted down, there was always another one,” she said.”
And even more tragic is the mothers loss and that of the family and friends. Here’s what Rinda Pope wrote on the comment section to the many letters on the site set up to memorialize her son.
“Rinda Pope
Fair Oaks, CA
Reply #10 11 hrs ago
“My son was caught up in something he had no control over, I am so very proud of the job he choose, at the same time wanted to whisk him away to safety. I love all our soldiers, but totally agree they all should come home. It’s not working in Iraq, just getting worse, no matter how many sound bites this administration puts out in the media. Our Christian Nation has worked the Muslim world into a frenzy based on lies..”
http://www.topix.net/forum/sou…..TPNG8VEM0C
AND TODAY THE DEMOCRATS LET THE HUNDREDS MORE OF OUR TROOPS PLACED LONGER IN HARMS WAY DOWN! They could have held firm, compelled Bush to make a “hard choice”…nbow today he’s so revelling in his face down that he’s planning on “doubling the surge” by December! INSANITY!!!!!
Did I hear KO say that John Edwards said today that the Democrats in Congress should not back down on an Iraq exit timetable? I hope I heard correctly.
Anybody have a link about that?
I have been pretty determinedly uncommitted in the Presidential race thus far but if Edwards did say that–and Clinton and Obama do not–I would be inclined to support Edwards.
snowbird42 @ 57
He does make me feel better. I was disappointed that Carter backed down. But not Gore. The dems need to slap Bush around more than they do.
Why don’t they do these things that seem so obvious?
juslin @ 52
To be fair to the Dems in office, they could sure use something better than a one vote majority. It is unrealistic to say the least to expect them to do much with such a razor thin advantage. It is remarkable that they’ve been able to do as much as they have.
One thing the Republicans have learned that my party hasn’t. ‘You can’t please everyone’.
Did we citizen blogger activists fail the Speaker and members of the Out Of Iraq Coalition, a little, with not enough push back against Rove and the media message? (Not to mention the enormous corporate military/energy financial intrests who want endless war and high oil prices.)
I mean really, reading Testers words yesterday – verbatim GOP talking points…something went terribly wrong…. WTF happened?!
I was thrilled with the Edwards campaign producing commercials that we could all contribute to by purchasing air time.. Maybe we needed to keep those rolling 10 to 14 days longer.
The streaming lies wear me down, although not enough to start believing them. Is that all that happened with folks like Tester inside the beltway?
i swear – this is SOOOOOOOO frustrating after working for dems to gain control of congress …..and yet it seems the repugs still have the reins its disgusting i tell you! makes one not want to support these spineless b*st*rds!!1
Gore says on King that “we need to get our troops home as soon as possible”.
What you are missing is that the House has already approved some Iraq War funding for the next fiscal year. We’ve been fighting about the supplemental appropriation, but there is Iraq War money in the regular appropriation. If it stays in, what are they going to do? Shut down the DoD?
The Democrats aren’t going to grow any new balls by September, and the Republicans aren’t going to abandon Bush in September.
The only choice, it seems to me, is to stand and fight now. This bill is not yet a done deal, the reconciled bill has to pass both houses.
Gore Bring them home now but in the right way. Solid reason…thought, intelligence.
How can he say no?
Teddy, Eli & Rev Deb -
First I didn’t see KO tonight so I didn’t know Fineman had referred to that card game.
I really think it’s a grand bluff. Or, at the very least a tactic to call the Blue Dogs out to the open; to play lame early in this game, for political gain and to leverage more power later; to let the Speaker appear strong and be able to stand with the Out of Iraq Caucus to some degree as a lot of them had to flip in the earlier vote; and/or something else.
I think there is a back-story on this, perhaps more than one.
And, please don’t get it twisted. I really didn’t want to sound critical. I realize so many of you are passionate about this. I would love nothing more than for all of them to come home and for America to start rebuilding. I just really think that these machinations are necessary because we are so damaged in the world. I would think that true Americans would want to do it right — once, not 5 steps forward then 10 steps back. We are just too damaged to expend that kind of time and waste that much energy.
Then again, I could be totally wrong. If I am, I will admit it and refrain from further comment on the issue.
My dream team is still gore/clark..
The only Constructive Solution to this Abomination.
Poison pill it. Pelosi and Jellyfish Reid need to look the other way and let a nameless staffer stick in some provisions in during the night before the vote.
Like say…revocations of the Patriot act, funding for independent investigation into articles of impeachment, restoration of Habus Corpus, revocation of the Authorization of Force, revocation of funding for Bush’s SS protection after leaving office, deadlines to leave that are mandatory and not optional…etc.
The Republicans were infamous about doing this to the Democrats…so this once, turn the tables on them. If they hold true to form, none of them will read it before voting…and Bush will never read the whole thing…sneak it in and let him sign it into law…
Sauce for the Goose…
noen @ 71
In this case they didn’t have to do anything more than continue to pass Bills that budgeted the troops…with provisions. Bush would eventually have to stop vetoing the bills and accept the provisions…or HE would leave the troopps unsupported.
The Democrats didn’t NEED to override Bush’s veto.
Phule @ 79
nice thought
Eli @ 80
Forgot to add: If it *does* make it to Dubya’s desk, then it’s a loss, not a bluff.
Fixed.
When I compare the front runners for the Demo nomination to Gore, those two
(front runners) come up radically short.
TexBetsy @ 67
I had company today but I listened to CNN for a few minutes this afternoon and heard it. I was curious if it was the guard or the other guys??
Phule @ 80
How about funding all costs of the Iraq War by a Tax on the Top 5% Income Bracket? Share the “sacrifice”…after all we were still paying for the Spanish-American war with a phone tax until recently!
Joe Buck @ 76
I agree that we have to stand and fight even though we sure could use more ammo. My position is that it is going to happen anyway. We will be made out to be the scapegoats no matter what we do. Bush will force a constitutional crisis somehow. He, or rather Cheney, wants to show just how irrelevant the congress and senate are. Bush/Cheney/Rove want to establish an imperial presidency. Some people even beleive he won’t step down in ‘08. I’m not fully convinced of that but I am certain that he wants to destroy the legislative branch.
Gore could lead us out of this mess. So he wrote this political book…why?
He is as powerful as anything Ive heard in a while.
Clear, concise, condemning
Oklahoma kiddo @ 82
One of the strange things about Gore staying out is that, at least to me, it implies that Gore is satisfied with the current Democratic frontrunners. Which seems a bit odd, especially in Hillary’s case.
(I think Hillary is at least nominally pretty good on the environment, but she kinda sucks on Iraq)
Most of me wants Bush to be pummeled. No quarter. Beyond September, if there is only more violence and death and even greater chaos, Republicans who attempt to flip-flop on the life and death matter of war and the safety of our young men and women will be skewered for self serving political cowardice worse than the ones who simply choose to go down with the ship.
But taking a step back to look at the situation, also realize that Bush remains a very very dangerous person who feels no remorse in exacting revenge on his own people, Americans, who defy him. This might sound odd, but four more months could spell the difference between a crazed Bush who could cause greater harm to our own in the event of the plug being pulled outright now and a Bush who will be subdued in to confronting his own inevitable surrender to Congress and the American people this fall.
Four more months of devastating harm, while unbearable to accept, could possibly be the lesser of two evils when someone as perversely grandiose and dangerous as Bush still has the time and cover to act out, especially with plotting neocon voices nudging his moves.
Looks to me as if the dems fucked this up. They didn’t have a chance to get us out now- or overide the clusterfuck veto- but they managed to raise expectations and then let em crash. Bad theatre- bad politics.
Bottom line is- this wasn’t gonna come out well right now no matter what they did. Maybe in September. Hope they get their acts together. This didn’t have to end with an ass kicking- but it did.
repugs say troops must stay to keep iraq from falling into chaos… and this isnt chaos? iraqis taking a 2 month vacation – will the troops get a 2 month reprieve? just asking….
It’s hard to respect Gore when others are doing the running and water carrying in the race proper while he’s still off to the side.
Same problem I have with Clark.
The way I see it, if Reid/Pelosi didn’t have the votes, they didn’t have the votes. There’s not much that can be done about it right now. I believe we now need a two prong strategy: weaken, through our powers of investigation, the rethug party to the point that their fundraising apparatus is so impaired that they find it difficult to contest elections in districts we’re targeting for conversion, which will in turn, free us to focus on ousting Blue Dogs and party-traitors such as Landrieu etc.
American democracy would seem to be in it’s last throes. An Executive that has usurped and corrupted almost all instruments of power and governance, a Congress that is becoming about as relavent as the Roman Senate during the reign of the Emperors, a public saited with the smell of a powerful gasoline and spoonfed indoctrination and propaganda and a MSM that is more concerned with priviledge and power than truth and justice. The life of all great nations follow a predictable arc. America is no different despite it’s stubborn belief in the myth of exceptionalism. Only when the people rise up in a tidal wave of righteous indignation will the Republic have a fighting chance. Until then there is nothing but sound and fury amounting to nothing.
For evil to occur, good men need merely do nothing.
Rationalization of Evil doesn’t make it any better.
OT With 95.45% of precincts reporting in KY Dem primary:
Beshear , Steven Dem 133,924 41.33
Lunsford , William Dem 69,222 21.36
40% is cut-off to avoid run-off.
Eli @ 83
Like I said, any one of those assumptions could be totally wrong. But, there is some strategy, some tactic, some method to them allowing this to be shot out to the public. They know full well where their base is on Iraq. Rahm Emanuel is not stupid, sly, very sly. And, being from IL, I’ve seen his past work. It’s brilliant! Look back to Nov. There is no way he would throw all that hard work in the shi**er. There is something churning in the back room.
Your passion is commendable, Eli.
Pachacutec @ 20
What you said is perfect and thank you for saying it better than this angry brat and I thank you again for that.
Landrieu is an endangered species- the most at risk dem seat in the senate. Katrina wiped out about a half million dem votes in La. She’s probably toast- and we probably get a gooper for that seat.
cinnamonape @ 81
I’m going to continue to vote for Dems.
I’ll vote against any invertebrate Dem for a higher life-form Dem in all primaries.
Then go for Dems in the general.
(shared similar sentiments downstairs)
kdh22 @ 78
Their plan is for the conference committee report to fail on the House and Senate floors? Yes, that’s been suggested, but I don’t understand: what’s the step after that step?
Phule @ 93
He spoke about this. Says its way too soon to have a campaign. Why have endless campaigns…so the “newz” will have fodder?
dakine01 @ 96
Whoa. That’s not even close. Awesome.
So what? Republicans don’t have the votes and they’re doing a fine job of obstructing.
If you can’t get the bill to pass as it is with deadlines, then screw Bush. Debate the bill into oblivion or sneak the deadlines in anyway.
If Democrats expect votes, they need to show a spine. Jellyfish only get cooked.
Re: Hillary. I’m keeping my powder dry on that subject. But that’s going to change.
btw, interesting editorial from last month in the Military Times: http://www.military.com/opinio…..96,00.html
Bush’s present strategy needs the draft to succeed. The stakes are escalating geometrically, fast.
it seems the more netroots shout the dems get more deaf – at the very least they could tell bush – HELL NO
“For evil to occur, good men need merely do nothing.
Rationalization of Evil doesn’t make it any better.”
I hear you, but ‘nothing being done’ is overstating it.
This is gut wrenching.
Blub @ 107
I think *any* strategy would need a draft to succeed… Well, other than the get-the-hell-out or the don’t-go-in-the-first-place strategies.
Scoop? Regarding Tom Delay possible home search from Josh Marshall – check it out!!:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.c…..014274.php
Eli @ 107
Th key is for Beshear to stay over 40%. Given Fletcher’s statewide JAR, it SHOULD mean Beshear as next Gov after Nov as Fletcher has probably near maxed out his vote capability.
I respect Gore. I like Gore. I support Gore. Is there a rule about having to jump into the race by a certain date?
LS @ 111
I think having the Feds raid your house is like some kind of Republican rite of passage…
this is soo sickening – i really really need a tall cool one to calm myself down grrrrrrrrrrrrrr
*N*O* discussion on the local news about the war bill. But, we have a Supervisor whose office, business, and homes were FBI-raided on Friday. He may not even live in the district he’s elected from. Also, a big truck crashed, fouling the pensinsula-bound commute at Redwood City — and the whales’ health is fading, still in fresh water.
But the war bill? *N*O*T*H*I*N*G*
rwcole @ 93
What we do is we send the bill with deadlines, put it on his desk and then adjern(sp?). That puts the onus back on him no matter what the media will say.
TeddySanFran @ 116
I’m not sure if that’s good or bad…
Oklahoma kiddo @ 114
There is, and its sometime next fall, I think
Yes, before the Primary cutoff.
I can appreciate that Gore is a good candidate, but after seeing all the effort everybody else’s campaigns are making now through voting time…it just rubs me wrong for a late comer to try and jump in and ride to nomination.
snowbird42 @ 119
I think he would at least need to jump in *before* the primaries…
Eli @ 115
What’s in his freezer?
Phule @ 121
Maybe they jumped the gun, not Al
Every state has it’s own deadlines for getting on the primary ballot. It would be tough to be competitive without at least being on the ballot in all the major states.
Of course if there is no winner in the first few ballots at a convention, then it opens up to others who don’t have any delegates currently- but that’s a long shot strategy at best.
Senator Reid:
You are sadly mistaken if you think the Democrats have any shred of dignity in the debate on funding the boondagle in Iraq. It’s disgusting that you have again caved into Bush’s bullying. I am ashamed of the leadership of this country, across the board.
Paul W. Miller
snowbird42 @ 126
DING!
snowbird42 @ 122
Thank you. ;0)
I just realized: I have the same feeling as I did when the “Gang Of 14″ orchestrated that no-filibuster compromise that was supposed to be such a great deal for us…
I like to think that Gore is waiting and watching the democratic candidates getting splinters on their asses from sitting on the fence on so many issues for so long of a time. When he sees they can’t stand up any more from the pain, he’ll jump in.
John Edwards is coming to YearlyKos2. He’s looking for our support. Unless Al runs, he da man.
I found the following statement at johnedwards.com (undated–don’t know whether it was made today or earlier):
Edwards Statement On Proposed Iraq Funding Bill
Chapel Hill, North Carolina – Senator John Edwards released the following statement today about the latest congressional developments on a bill to fund the war in Iraq.
“Conceding to the president on full funding for the Iraq war is a serious mistake. It is time to force an end to this war, and the only way for Congress to do that is to use its funding power. Any compromise that funds the war through the end of the fiscal year isn’t a compromise at all, it’s a capitulation. As I have said repeatedly, Congress should send the president the same bill he vetoed again and again until he realizes he has no choice but to start bringing our troops home.”
Paul MillR @ 128
Just in case you are not in Nevada…here is the email addy you may be looking for.
http://reid.senate.gov/contact/webformIAV1.cfm
Eli @ 128
Keeping the powder dry. For WHAT?
Eli @ 130
And wasn’t a brilliant ploy, one for the history books…. the chapter called “How to lose”.
RevDeb @ 132
HEAR HEAR! ;~)
And the Torture bill.
And the Illegal Spying Bill.
And the other Turd sitting in the Supreme Court.
It just goes on and on.
JPL @ 79
I like the sound of Gore/Feingold
Blub @ 96
Reid and Pelosi lost a long time ago, by endlessly repeating the “support our troops” frame Junja put around his illegal occupation for oil. We tried to get them to change it up, but they buy into the incorrect analysis that the Democrats suffered for ending the Vietnam War. By repeating BushCo’s mantra, they made this vote inevitable. Much, much better to never have another war vote at all, but I’m not sure that DeeCee Dems can break through the frame this late.
Now, the reasonable Republicans will get all the credit for taking away BoyKing’s keys in September, if they really do. If they don’t, we’ll have Petraeus2.0 and start the whole clusterfuck again, Surge2.0.
RevDeb @ 132
Dry powder is like stem cells: You can use it for *anything*! You just have to wait for the right moment, which is totally any day now…
For the Republicans to lob a grenade and have it explode all around us.
neurophius @ 133
I have really been impressed by Edwards, he’s my favorite so far.
TeddySanFran @ 137
Yeah, ‘cuz Vietnam was so very popular…
To these ‘too clever for their own good’ Congressional types, it’s not “insanity” because their eye is on the glittering “prize” – decades of unbelievable stockholder and stockmarket profits (at the expense of American taxpayers, Iraqi citizens and the new nation of Iraq); profits that would result from control of the “exceptionally rich” Iraqi oil fields, and that control is creeping closer and closer to our permanent grasp and looking more and more like an obtainable “benchmark” (thus all the FU surges as we wait for the American-written oil-theft bill to be passed into law in Iraq).
That’s their behind-the-scenes depraved rationalization, I’m assuming. Yet only a handful of “our representatives” will dare admit it out loud in public – I haven’t heard a peep about it from Feingold, for example, not to mention anything from those free from internal caucus pressure to speak their consciences such as Edwards or Gore or Carter or Dean. Never mind social security: OIL is the actual “third rail” of our corporate-owned American government. And no doubt some believe that without those multi-billions of oil profits in American and British multinational hands, our coming economic collapse will be too destructive of the status quo, so the oil must be secured to cushion that blow.
Of course, such covert rationalizations are in fact worse than “insane.” They are profoundly immoral and criminal “means” to an imaginary end.
OT
Just got an e-mail that Kucinich will speak for an hour tomorrow on the Iraq oil situation
11AM
WHAT is it, please? You’ve hinted and hinted; can you please specify what you think this grand master plan is? Or are you saying that we peons — and you as well — are not as smart as Reid and Pelosi, and therefore cannot see the grand master plan until they reveal it?
This isn’t even a knife in a gunfight. This is bending over and spreading the cheeks with a nice big circle painted on it as Cheney loads the buckshot.
For me it is purely objective. Gore would make a better president than the so called front runners.
Has anyone noticed the examples of the Boy King’s publicity pattern repeating today?
1 – Bush De-classifies Bin Laden threat;
2 – Bush approves (ABC News)new covert Iran actions;
3 – Monica “cry-baby victim” Goodling testifies tomorrow…
So, Rove/Bush stick with the pattern of cover for WH scandals by fear mongering in the press.
Bet they wish the easy days of “Yellow/Orange” from DHS were still here. Having to dig in their bag of propaganda for real cover stories must be harder now that many of his lackey-toads are resigning…
Oh, I almost forgot: Needing more cover is the record price of gas costing Americans over 20 billion a year more… Halliburton/Exxon uber alles…. Eh, Dick!
snowbird42 @ 147
Better Tivo it, because if it interferes with Monica, well…..
Local Fargo-Moorhead news led tonight with profile of the Hawley, Minnesota kid killed in Iraq Sunday by an IED while on escort duty. Constituent of Blue Dog Dem and Second Amendment “musician” Collin Peterson.
How many more, Collin? How many more?
snowbird42 @ 89
Because he’s gonna run.
Over six years of this shit and those half-wits haven’t either figured out a way to counter this, or at least figured out that it’s stealing their souls by the spoonful.
I’m sure the high strategists among us know that persistent incapacity can be a tactic, too.
And please, don’t even offer them the Lieberman bogeyman. I think maybe I too need to muzzle it for a while.
newspaperbrat @ 128
a-LING!
neurophius @ 134
JOHN E!! You the man.. Edwards for Pres and Obama for his running mate… UNBEATABLE!!! That ain’t no shit, either… UN-F**king-BEATABLE!!
Eli 121 — I think “no news” in the Speaker’s homebase could possible be “good news” but I’m not sure I believe it yet….
STTP in Ohio @ 154
He’s being hedgy. That is annoying. Just come out and say no or yes. I’m so sick of the future of our universe being defined by some coy game.
Constructive Idea #2
Preempt Bush.
Stick the Iraq funding as part of the regular spending so that it is on the books and make everyone vote on it.
Get the GOP b*tches and D Jellyfish on record as voting for War Spending Forever. Let Bush try and counter that, having the money being on the books for a change.
LS @ 156
I agreed with you until tonight. He has a right to say when a campaign starts. Everyone agrees this early start is nuts, not to mention expensive and toxic
I just saw footage of Speaker Pelosi. She looked awful. Her eyes were puffy and her face drawn (we notice those things), and she wasn’t even wearing her regular pearls. Something’s up, like, if you do this….no mo money….???? I don’t know, I don’t like what is happening here….maybe it isn’t money, but still. Clearly, she does not look right, and looking right is part of her M.O., part of her perceived power.
LS @ 159
He can’t come out and say anything yet. If he says no, and he does eventually run, he’ll be branded a liar. If he says yes, then the media will attack him ruthlessly. No, the best thing is that he keep doing what he is doing until just the right time.
LS @ 159
So true. After his “pulling-no-punches” book “The Assault on Reason,” every day Gore delays saps his credibility imho.
————————————–
‘PupMap (613 pins), Chat, Calendar, Timeline
It attacks him ruthlessly already. And it would only get worse during the actual campaigning.
If he’s planning on running, he can’t put off that battle. He must face Darth Media again.
thanks, RevDeb and neurophius, for the good news from John Edwards!!Eli @ 145
And the Democrats didn’t suffer for ending the Vietnam War. 1974 was the largest Democratic blowout in midterms in history (practically, he typed, unwilling to look it up) and we elected a Democratic President in 1976. Just because JB3 and the Bushistas stole the Presidency for RR in October 1980 is no excuse to be afraid of ending a very, very unpopular war we were lied into against our will.
DeeCee Dems lost this on the frame around the Overton Window.
If you could choose the next prez and the choices were, Clinton, Obama or Gore, who most inspires your confidence among these three?
Has anybody heard whether either of the 2008 frontrunners, Clinton or Obama, made any kind of statement today about the Democrats’ alleged deal to fold on Iraq? I checked their Web sites, both campaign and official Senate, and did not see anything. I would really like to know where they stand.
S.O.S. from MA @ 164
So true. After his “pulling-no-punches” book “The Assault on Reason,” every day Gore delays saps his credibility imho.
————————————–
‘PupMap (613 pins), Chat, Calendar, Timeline
Why? Why does that sap his credibility? I think he needs to get more people familiar with his book and his points of view.
Edwards has been stepping up on Iraq but so has Richardson and Dodd (not to mention Kucinich and Gravel) … and Edwards has not been good on Iran.
Be careful …
FYI(Washington Post Discussions):
David Iglesias
Former U.S. Attorney for New Mexico
Wednesday, May 23, 2007; 12:30 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..iscussions
Eliz Edwards blogging over at Kos
Im trying for anything to feel better.
One more life lost in this occupation – an american life, an iraqui life, or the life of anyone serving in this debacle – is one too many.
What would happen if we gathered all the families of soldiers not yet dead, but the ones that will be between now and September, together and told them that their child, their spouse, their parent was going to be killed because its’ going to be politically advantageous. You think they’d give their blessing? These are real lives and real families we’re talking about.
I’m just SO angry about the removal of timelines that I can’t stand it. I know a republican woman who told me that “its the job of poor people to fight the wars”. What has to happen for us to stand up and say ENOUGH!
I called my reps and Pelosi. I haven’t yet called Reid, but I will.
ENOUGH.
146 & 147 were certainly well-timed!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 167
Gore
snowbird42 @ 161
Believe me, I agree with you. You’re probably right about the early start, I don’t know nothin’ bout startin’ campaigns. I just get ticked when I think they might be buffaloing me. I’m at the point when I wish somebody would say, “everything’s gonna be alright” and it turned out to be true. It is that simple.
snowbird42 @ 126
Exactly. Why invite all the nonsense that comes with running any sooner than you have to.
Gore doesn’t need to hurry; he has name recognition, access to money, a campaign infrastructure at the ready. Why stick a bulls eye on your forehead before absolutely necessary?
TeddySanFran @ 162
Well, you can’t say conclusively that that was a reward for ending Vietnam, as there may have been some other things going on around that time as well.
But I do find the idea that a political party would pay a price for ending an *unpopular* war to be, well, insane.
Pachacutec @ 20
Were you to talk one-on-one with me, I suspect you might be angry with me also.
Much as I want them to act independently of pressures, I see politicians still whip-sawed tw’ what constituents SAY they want, and what those same people really will come out and VOTE for.
Beyond that, I see an electorate who simply do NOT do their homework. (NOT FDLers, for they are the happy exception! ;->)
Co-conspirators in the whole sorry mess of today: mainstream media, which have totally fallen down on the job, and willingly become an utter disgrace catering to the lowest common denominator that puts cash in their pockets.
Hence, a lot of what I do in my own community of friends, acquaintances et al., is to use the marvelous “homework” that is available thru FDL & other sites recommended by you guys, and try to spread the word. As we travel more these days, my “community” expands… I don’t hide the fact that I’m a liberal, and that I’m not just disgusted, but frightened for our future and that of the world’s children, unless current trends are promptly altered.
I hope it gives you a little solace to know some of us who are NOT, by any stretch of the imagination, experts in the field, nevertheless can help, and do try.
oh yeah… in addition… you better believe our own Congresscritters, as well as committee chairpersons, AND any pols with higher profile than a slug… know exactly who we are, and that we are watching them closely and judging how they act, NOT just what they say.
Anger’s fine. Anger’s good, and totally appropriate to the circumstances. Just keep maintaining a ray of hope. We need to keep going. What you are doing is critically important to the future.
I know you have another life and career. You don’t have to do this. I hope it means something to you that I thank you, DEEPLY THANK YOU, for what you are doing, and I suspect I have lots of company in feeling that way. ;->
Upside downism.
The Broderized conventional wisdom has it that Democrats suffered for ending Vietnam, even though they wiped the floor in congressional elections. They also won the presidency in 1976.
The other end is the much over-used “Republicans were punished for the Clinton impeachment” lie. Yes, they were punished so severly that they maintained congressional majorities for almost a decade after and were able to game the 2000 election because is was so close.
Such recriminations.
-GSD
Phule @ 79
Yes.
I love this.
For it to happen -
we have to depend on the craven Harry Reid, and the tacit acquiescence of the vile Rahm, so we’re screwed here, too.
neurophius @ 168
So would I. ;0)
Siun @ 170
I agree.
Gore/Clark
Gore/Edwards
Gore/ Feingold.
Sorry.
Gore/Dean!
Time to shift the entire paradigm.
LS @ 162
I’m not reading between the lines. What do you think is up?
Siun @ 166
Is it my imagination, or has Candidate Dodd been completely different from Senator Dodd? My recollection was that Senator Dodd was pretty lackluster and kinda centrist, but I find myself liking Candidate Dodd.
Has he changed, or was I just not paying enough attention?
LS @ 162
Well if there’s blackmail afoot I wouldn’t be surprised. But if she votes for this creature that’s coming out of conference, she will get a primary.
pwrlght @ 167
This is *after* Monica’s testimony, right?
Iran is crucial.
So! Kinda OT, but — What’s the general feeling about Monica G’s testimony on the morrow? Will she spill all the beans while under Grant of Immunity, thus presenting a totally Smoking Gun for the MSM to brazenly ignore, or will she brazen it out on her ownzies and Lie for Jayzus like they taught her in that bottom-tier “law school?”
My bet’s on the latter. Whatchoothink?
In any case I’ve laid in a considerable aumount of popcorn. And chocolate.
“Bring ‘em on.”
————————————————————————
‘PupMap (613 pins), Chat, Calendar, Timeline (click here or on my .SIG above)
Phule-
I don’t think Gore has been attacked much at all. His movie has had good publicity and his new book hasn’t been talked of much yet. They can’t really attack him because he’s just a former VP and not in an important position right now. He’s in the perfect position to get his points accross without being in their crosshairs.
Siun @ 170
I thought JE took a step back from his Iran bellicosity, no?
Eli @ 185
Im amused that Iglesias is the JAG played by Tom Cruise in a Few Good Men
LS @ 162
Grandma was not a happy camper. And the thugs attacked Murtha with some sort of proposed reprimand on the House floor today. I only caught a snippet on cspan but a gooper was trying to say Murtha threatened him on the floor.
Why aren’t the Dems lined up with reprimands?
TeddySanFran @ 192
I missed that. Can you tell me more?
Any Goodling testimony will be superceded by the declassified Al Qaeda info. that Bush/Rove just released.
The media will lap that stuff up like warm milk from mommie’s teat.
-GSD
LS @ 159
I disagree, respectfully.President Gore has shown more dignity, reason, effectiveness, and hard work since the Bush criminal cartel stole his election than the Bush Cheney administration has to date. I am deeply moved and inspired by this brilliant and selfless patriot whose entire life defines patriotism and public service. I have no doubt history will judge him as one of our greatest.
GSD @ 180
thank you.
thank you all, actually, for being here tonight
Zee @ 185
I have no idea. Maybe she struggled with the fact that she was about to do something that would PISS US ALL OFF, and she cried herself to sleep and STILL DID IT. She better have a plan, that is all I have to say. Maybe someone who she depends on for contributions, told her that if she takes that position, they’ll cut her off. Who knows???? Politics is so convoluted.
I say resend the original bill to Bush. Jeez, these dems in congress have all read to many parenting manuals. They need to hold there ground and say NO and follow thru with the consequences. What the heck, Bush is a spoilt child and it’s high time someone took him out to the barn for a good old fashion whooping. And then the dems should send a bill which only funds the return of the troops. Let Bush veto that too.
“Our country is in danger not just from foreign enemies. But above all from our own misguided policies. This war must be ended and in my judgement, it can be ended. And it does not involve giving up, but it does involve not continuing to follow the bankrupt policy we’re following at the present time.” RFK
I do not want an attack by my government on Iran. And I don’t want my government to cave as a result of exerted pressue or influence by any other government to do so.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 201
amen!
cathy @ 169
I don’t mean to be over-brief, but jmho as I said… :)
————————————————————————
‘PupMap (613 pins), Chat, Calendar, Timeline (Click here or on my .SIG above)
The Wingnuts and Climate Deniers have been lobbying their venom non-stop. And the MSM already worship Drudge.
C&L already has a vid of the ‘objective media’ obsessing over Gore’s weight during what was supposed to be a book review.
Digby is right, the media is a bunch of highschool queens.
Yeah, Pelosi may have cried about this crap. I feel like crying too.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 201
Seconded.
We’ll leave Iraq when the oil runs out.
And not until.
Right on cue.
Headlining over at Yahoo.
Bin Laden determined to attack in the US.
-GSD
Adie @ 179:
To your point, Edwards ramping up his anti-Iraq war rhetoric tells me he is reading the landscape the same way you do. And, he is likely a little more experienced at this.
As to Parachutec’s alternate point: I believe what we have to watch out for is Bush’s secret September strategy… It may be to pull out and declare the Iraqi government able to either sink or swim. His own party gives him this much time. Thus, if Edwards is too aggressive, then in September, we may well wear the downers cloak..
GSD @ 203
Okay, you’ve covered your ass.
Eli @ 56
So sorry. I forgot.
It was Nader’s people who stormed a legal count while the forthright Dems stood by and allowed a conspiracy to miscount legal votes.
And all the peons who voted against triangulation and for Nader were thoughtless automata.
Nader made them do it.
But now the Dems have restored their rightful ownership of those apostate votes.
What other choice do the peons have?
I’m sure that’s what the Congressional Dems calculated – again – when they screwed us over on trade – again – last week.
It worked so well a year before the 2000 election, after all.
Puesto @ 204
If the Republicans can take credit for getting us out of Iraq, the Democrats are completely and utterly fucked in 2008.
no shit, what you said.
Muzzy at 92, I appreciate what you say, and think you have the nature of the problem correct, except that it doesn’t matter whether he’s placated or not. The man is an unpredictable bully. That type can lash out from contempt as easily as from outrage at being “defied.” Give him what he wants and he’s liable to strike you for it anyway. Better to go down trying to act in the country’s best interests than in his.
And standing against that type takes conditioning and practice that the Dems are passing on opportunities to develop, even in the face of evidence that much and an increasing share of the country is with them.
GSD @ 207
Fast Frannie Townsend on message:
“She said that in the spring of 2005, bin Laden instructed Hamza Rabia, a senior operative, to brief al-Zarqawi on al-Qaida planning to attack sites outside Iraq, including the United States. She did not disclose where in the United States those attacks were being plotted.”
GSD @ 207
Yeah, this is serious, because OfGeorge Frances is on the case. She is the most serious (and the prettiest!!) of the wives.
I haven’t found a statement by Bill Richardson on today’s developments vis a vis Iraq funding, but his campaign Web site does call for withdrawing all troops by the end of the year, and for Congress deauthorizing the war:
http://www.richardsonforpresident.com/issues/iraq
prostratedragon @ 209
Bullies also tend to back down when you punch them in the nose. The Democrats haven’t punched Bush in the nose nearly enough.
Eli at 211
In my opinion, the dems are completely and utterly fucked today.
I had so wanted to trust Ms Pelosi. To figure shes wiser that many and wants the end of the war…but Im sure not comfortable with her now.
Prediction: November 1, 2008, headline:
We’ve Got HIM!!!!!
End of Story.
GSD @ 196
This is an excellent possibility GSD. How like the WH gang to upstage what may well be a disastrous session in Congress. Especially the part about the MSM swallowing it whole. (The same media that soft-pedaled Comey’s shattering testimony…)
I would not bet a farthing against what you predict.
————————————————————————
‘PupMap (613 pins), Chat, Calendar, Timeline (Click here or on my .SIG above)
Zee @ 214
At this point, I think it’s a matter of them seriously underachieving in 2008, but the Republicans will have a lot of negatives to overcome.
But if the Republicans can brand themselves as the party that got us out of Iraq, and the Democrats as the party that couldn’t or wouldn’t, it will be very bad indeed.
Eli @ 178
And I find a political party who would let the price stop them to be insane.
LS @ 216
They’ll have to carbon-date him to figure out when he was actually killed/captured…
Have to say I love the pix at the top. I am a cat freak.
The narrative has already been put in place. It will be a “brave and sober” group of Republicans who will approach Bush and “lay it on the line” about the war.
Bush will heed the will of the mature and responsible Republicans.
-GSD
However, the Republicans are dealing with Bush and he doesn’t sing anyone elses tune. They are also setting themselves up for a real hard fuvking too.
I still say he ends up doubling down and striking Iran before the year is out.
Eli @ 188
Yep
HotFlash @ 219
Well, it’s one thing to buck public opinion to do the right thing. But to buck public opinion to do the *wrong* thing???
as long as bushco is in power – he’ll do as he damn well pleases – and fuck our opinions – bush is a true bully boy – and he has cheney and rove running things and people – the ugly head of fascism is awash in the land….
GSD @ 208
Oh the dialysis…
Puesto @ 208
i detest this whole administration.
i don’t trust them as far as i could throw them.
don’t get me wrong.
i’m only saying, we need to lean HARD on those who would lead us, but we also have to be strong enough, ourselves, NOT to give up on quality people because of one single action which might, if misconstrued (deliberately by rover, or otherwise) play right into the hands of opposition trying to tar good candidates.
i think we’re basically on the same page. ;->
I can’t tell you how much I hope that things don’t get worse for the people of Iraq. And the people of the US. But, sadly, they will. In some ways, I don’t want to see the future. But, on the other hand, I hope I can deal with it, because living is better than not living, and I am in that happy position (living) right now. And, imagining into the future, which isn’t much solace, I would hope that the story is told, truthfully and honestly- “THESE are the people who didn’t stand up. THESE are the people who had a chance to make a difference, and didn’t. And, I hope that GORE is one of the people who finally steps forward to claim his Presidency.
Sorry, I am pretty sure that what I have said will make sense to only a few. But I am just so pissed off about today’s vote that I am beyond thinking sensibly.
GSD @ 208
Now they tell us!
What’s the difference between Congressional Democrats and your appendix?
pwrlght @ 223
Excellent. Iglesias was the one who said that Monica was the key to everything.
kdh22 @ 100
Maybe so. But I’ve heard that tune many times — every time, in fact, that the Democratic leadership has betrayed the people like this — and so far, it has never been true. Not once.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice… you can’t get fooled again.
There’s still a little time before the ‘08 elections, so maybe the Dems will do something real in time. If they do, then they’ll retain my vote. But I’m not going to hold my breath.
Iraq is my litmus test. If the Dems cannot, or are unwilling to, put an end to that murderous ongoing crime, then they don’t represent me and I cannot give them my vote.
Third party, anyone?
Valley Girl @ 232
Makes perfect sense to me, VG.
today’s news isn’t all bad…just mostly.
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/….._0522.html
Eli @ 209
Brilliant, Eli!
SACRAMENTO – While most Democrats focus either on the next round of presidential debates in early June or on accumulating fundraising numbers by the end of June, Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton’s strategists in California are focused on…
January 12, 2008.
On that day, they believe, the first hard evidence will emerge of an idea they hope Americans (or at least Democratic primary voters) will accept: Hillary’s victory is inevitable
seepeesate @ 232
When was the last time anyone saw the rope-a-dope used successfully in politics?
john in sacramento @ 233
After the extraction, some people want to take their appendix home.
The possibility of just this occurring went up exponentially today. In fact, the Democrat’s part of the equation was written today. All the GOP has to do is trudge up Pennsylvania Avenue in September and take away the BoyKing’s keys, then put him on a plane to Crawford.
Eli @ 236
But that also would require Monica to tell the truth. Even with immunity I am not that confident she will but I am confident she will cry.
neurophius- thanks so much. I fear that I am angry beyond reason.. well, angry beyond being able to type coherently. xxoo
hint hint
start working on your ground-level Dem. organizers, to make sure they understand what’s going on at the national level.
i’m not kidding. you might be shocked at how clueless they can be, as they stew & fret over council, mayoral, library levy etc. races.
b-r-o-a-d-e-n their minds, tactfully, of course. ;->
i wish i were kidding…..
GSD @ 226
The fiscal year.
Eli @ 222
I’ve been away from the lake for a few weeks and this is my first real chance to vent. I may be overreacting (my husband would say its not the first time!). I’m just at my wits end about the Iraq spending bill. I’m sick of compromises when the real cost is WAY more important than money. How would our elected representatives argue and make compromises if they were talking about the number of lost lives rather the number of taxpayer dollars? I’m fortunate. I don’t have anyone in my immediate circle serving in the war. But I feel for people who do. I physically feel for them. Especially today.
TeddySanFran @ 239
We are mostly in synch on this, although I think simply backing a veto-proof withdrawal bill will be sufficient to make them brave antiwar heroes, putting the welfare of the country over loyalty to their beloved preznit…
so tell me- is it time yet to shift my support from the dems to the greenies? Obviously the Dems can’t/won’t do what they were voted into office to do and the goopers are stealing our country so what the hell- is it time yet?
pwrlght @ 240
That, too, could make for some interesting discussion with Mr. Iglesias.
Eli @ 211
Valley Girl @ 232
You made perfect sense to me, but I share your mental and emotional state.
Eli @ 131
If you mean a foreboding about what it all means, I fear you’re right. Btw, whatever the backstory turns out to be, I think it’s beyond NSA intercepts. I’ve been reading up on the 1980s financial crisis lately, and been reminded why I turned off politics for over a decade.
OT – I think. Driving by. I’ve read the article, but not the thread.
At one of the busiest intersections where I live, during rush hour traffic tonight, there was a man sporting a sign that said:
Fire Cheney First!
Without Dick, Bush is just nuts!
Do you think Joe Lieberman will stump for Senator Clinton among the blue dogs?
GSD @ 196
This might mean that Monica’s testimony will be damaging. Oh, man, I hope so.
Zee @ 244
I feel a bit callous talking about it in terms of political strategy and outcomes; it’s my cold, analytical nature, I guess. But this is a very clear-cut case where the Right (and Courageous, and Compassionate) Thing To Do and the Politically Shrewd Thing To Do are one and the same.
TeddySanFran @ 105
Lets assume its a game. Can the Republicans get enough votes to pass a war spending bill against the wishes of the Anti Minium wage lobby? Are the Blue Dogs really confident that they can win in their districts with us opposing them? If this MODERATE measure fails then Bush complains about pork again but the point gets driven home the Democrats comprimised if not outright rolled over for Bush. If Bush can’t get this passed or refuses to sign the bill well he is not likly to get a better deal. The Broder Moderates will be discredited because they can’t pass things even with Republican help! If this is the play the Democrats are making well I think the stakes are to high! However Bush’s pattern is he pushes FURTHER at signs of weakness the Democrats are betting (I hope) he doesn’t sign, They are counting on it. If Bush doesn’t sign the Democrats can say we tried being bipartisan we got OUR base angry and got nothing. So NOW we do things the hard way/right way!
Valley Girl @ 244
Valley Girl, it made perfect sense to me.
My favorite EarthFirst! cover is a nice domestic scene…dad in the overstuffed armchair, kids playing on the floor, gas mask hung on the wall.
One child is severly mutated/malformed; the other a chimera.
Daddy, what did you do in the war?
Something. So long as we were not silent, but spoke and acted.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 257
I think Joe Lieberman will stump for Joe Lieberman. It’s always about Joe Lieberman.
TSF- and thanks to you, too, for saying that you got what I was saying. I am just so distressed.
Senator Clinton is a hawk on the Middle East. And I would not put it past a President Clinton to bomb Iran.
kdh22 @ 100
OH PLEEEEEZE NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
Split vote means your side goes SPLAT!
elementary, my dear….
please trust me on this….
Dear Eli, George Bush and the republicans are twisting in the wind. Why should the democrats cut them down and then have to take the blame for:
Best case: Iraq fracturing into three parts, with sporadic ’70’s Lebanon warring going on, only, with the added incentive of oil. Turks threatening Kurds, as the Kurds use their control of Kirkuk (remember the “referendum” that has to be held by the end of the year?) to gain lots of petro-dollars for some really neat wartoy shopping.
South Iraq-Iran axis-of-dead-dinosaurs, with more SUV-juice and petro-power than the Saudis.
Worst case: Hironymous Bosch does Mesopotamia and the mid-east. The Tigris and the Euphrates run biblical red.
Maybe, both. Simultaneously.
Do we want this happening on the democrats “watch”?
Expectations that, post mid-terms, Pelosi and the dems would ride in on white chargers and rout the bad guys and give us an apple pie ending are unrealistic, and that’s putting it mildly.
They simply can’t take the fiscal steps that would force troop drawdowns. It will be political suicide, if they do it. The republicans would dance naked on the Capitol steps, if they would do that.
It’s simple; no matter who takes over in 2008, Iraq is not going to get better. It’s going to get worse.
And it will almost certainly get worse BEFORE 2008, which means that the blame-game is going to HAVE to be played, and played well, by the dems.
With no possibility of a happy ending, it’s all they/we have left. We can’t play it, if Pelosi and company, by yanking out the rug, trigger the final descent into chaos and give bush and the repubs the chance to shriek that THEY caused it to happen.
The decision to invade and try to occupy Iraq was SO fucking stupid and arrogant, that a shit-ending is graven in stone.
No democrat can change that, so they might as well keep sending bush the pleas for drawdowns, and holding the committee endings, and REMINDING EVERYONE that it was junor who pulled the trigger, 4-plus years ago.
We have a chance to discredit these bastards and their warped worldview, for a generation or two. Now is not the time to put our heads in the noose with them.
Let ‘em swing. It’s cyinical, but it’s all we’ve got. They have seen to that.
Same old: Steady as she goes, Cap’n Pelosi.
But I think an overriden veto might require that the keys be removed from his hands beforehand. I am not sure how he will respond to an overriden veto. Nor, I fear, are they.
And by “they” I mean GOP and Democrats.
And, thanks to you, too, Kirk, for getting what I was “trying” to say.
And perhaps President Clinton can find a place for Joe in her administration. How about AG or Ambassador to the U.N.?
Things Come Undone @ 255
Their base would still remember that they caved this time, though – and only Bush’s insanity gave them that chance to do the right thing.
Unfortunately, I’m not convinced that if Bush found a reason to reject this capitulation, that their reaction wouldn’t be to capitulate *more*.
Tanbark @ 261
They won’t be the only ones swinging, though. Or getting shot or blown up, as the case may be…
Joe owes Hillary for Lamont.
Ah yes. Then there’s Hillary, Joe and the DLC.
Adie @ 264
I agree. As disgusted as I am tonight, I will still vote for whoever is the dem candidate in November. I do not want another Republican president picking the next 1 or 2 (or more?) supreme court justices. My rights have eroded too much already.
TeddySanFran @ 262
I honestly think he would writhe around on the floor kicking and screaming.
Tanbark @ 265
I’m impressed. Someone else at the Lake as cruel, mean, nasty and evil as I am.
I greatly fear that, once I got over my fit of pique (D and GD say hi back and GD does go to cassie’s site; i bookmarked it for her. our internet rules are very strict so she won’t be commenting unles an adult is present but it is on the OKAY list…) I am compelled to agree with this viewpoint. And I’m certain Nancy Pelosi has figured it out too. Her bad appearance today probably stems from realizing what future lies ahead….for iraq.
Valley Girl @ 266
VG, I sure heard you saying it. Lots of other folk have. I think you tried and succeeded.
TCU –
The suggestion was made tonite (was it Howard Fineman?) that the White House is already taking things away from the agreed-upon compromise. That would support the scenario you present, I suppose — Congress either gives W everything he asked for and he still vetoes it, because he doesn’t any longer agree to things he said he’d agreed to. Or… Congress can’t pass the bill Bush said he’d sign.
I still don’t understand the next step.
Eli @ 274
he’d go on TV and say “I am the decidererer and vetoes harm the national security so I’ve decided not to sign the veto. I win.” I sweartaghod that is the equivalent of what chimpy would do…
Adie @ 265
Yes, I understand that. But the Democratic party is, apparently, not “my side,” no matter how hard I wish it were. At least not so far. I’ll wait and see. What else can I do? But if the Dems can’t move on this issue, then I can’t trust them on any other issue either, and therefore have no more use for them than I have for the Republicans.
Tell me somethin’ good:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjzpPkKj6xc
Eli @ 274
Crying on his bright sunny yellow rug?
Valley Girl @ 262
As are we all. Thanks be to the ‘lake for providing a fire around which we may gather, and keen our woe.
Reminder that Jane already pointed this out:
http://www.pinkspage.com/
Oklahoma kiddo @ 257
Rudy’s running mate will stump for Clinton? :)
Can Congress wield a more decisive blow in September than the original bill recently passed with an ‘08 withdrawal date?
As far as I’m concerned, on foreign policy, Senator Clinton never stopped being a “Goldwater Girl”.
Alfred Kelgarries @ 279
He would also hit the Jack Daniel’s, bigtime.
Actually, that’s probably the first thing he would do.
Steve Jobs on his fellow board member:
‘”If he ran, there’s no question in my mind that he would be elected,” said Jobs, referring to Gore. “But I think there’s a question in his mind, perhaps because the pain of the last election runs a lot deeper than he lets most of us see.”‘
Eli @ 270
I am not convinced either I think the stakes are to high. I think we could end the war now. I’m hoping this is a very dumb high risk play. Otherwise I’m forced to conclude that we voted a bunch of Chicken $hits into office.
Zee @ 280
Lots of teething “balm”
Last year somebody on My Left Wing said the name of the Democrats’ powder is All Talc, No Action. I think they got that right.
repugs talk a lot of shit but when the deal goes down they stick with bushco….. at this point it just becomesw an exercise in futility and increases my anger at the dems
SusanD @ 287
“Talcin’ ’bout my capitulation…”
juslin @ 288
It makes a lot more sense when Republicans do it, though – what’s the Democrats’ excuse? Do they think it’s still November 2001 and his approval rating is at 90%?
Puesto at 151: check.
I thought I heard something this morning from France about a new alert announced by the new, “moderate” Interior minster we’re all supposed to be so happy that Sarkozy appointed, but I can’t find it now on yahoo/AFP. Still, I think you’ve got the pattern, with France possibly taking over for UK as the amen corner.
prostratedragon @ 291
Wow, wouldn’t that be ironic.
Bye-bye freedom fries, hello freedom muffins.
juslin @ 293
Your finger rests on my button. I am pissed off. However, we have to stay united. We have to.
Don’t get me wrong, though. I would have accepted — however begrudgingly — a compromise. I see the political realities. But this is not a compromise. It’s a complete and total cave-in.
Does that mean we can all start French-kissing again?
seepeesate @ 53
Kind of looks like Rove already has one party rule. The Dems are so cowardly and limp wristed, I am embarrassed. There are so few patriots in this party it makes you wonder how long Feingold, Kennedy, Kuccinich, Gore, and Edwards will stick around. Maybe the time has come for a third party. It is no wonder the GOP was successful for such a long time. They FIGHT! If Bush were not such a disaster, they would still be in power today.
seepeesate @ 294
Yes. If it was a compromise, they would have gotten something in return. Okay, maybe the minimum wage hike – but that really should have been on its own.
I’ve posted on this earlier here as well as on another thread and I’m so thoroughly fed up with Washington D.C. and the GUTLESS Democrats, I can’t see straight. If the speaker had the BALLS, she tries to make us surfs think she had, she would just NOT allow this appropriation come up for a Vote. Then NITWIT would have to bring the Troops home at the end of July when the money runs out. I’m sitting here as a 70 year old that still is going to work every day because with gas at $3.39 a gallon and bread at $3.59 a loaf I’m not sure I can afford to retire. Believe me when this thing is voted on I fully intend to check how each member of the House and Senate voted and will work against every SOB that voted for it that is up for re-election in 08. In addition if I’m still around in 2010 I’ll do the same, same for 2012.
It ain’t about building the base.
Make it plural
We’re not building schools and hospitals
This is the reality.
Speaker Pelosi’s uncharacteristic tells reflect this situation.
seepeesate @ 279
I know what you mean, but I still want you to try something.
Make a list of 10 issues, not just the war.
Make your tentative decision then, after comparing the parties’ record on the issues. (NOT on just what they say in the heat of campaigns)
If you see things that you don’t like, on the side you feel most akin to, go into action and help forge party platform positions by contacting your congresscritters, as well as party leaders, and local party leaders.
Rinse. Repeat. Again.. Again…
I hope you “representatives” realize what you just did to our country. And, don’t get smug Repugs, because you caused the potential destruction of our country. You will not prevail. Not on our watch.
Things Come Undone @ 290
I gotta say, today’s been great for newcomers, and oldtimers coming outta the wilderness….
Welcome, or Welcome Back, as the case may be….
Greenwarrior:
Without Dick…bush is gone. :o)
He’s bush’s insurance policy, because practically no one wants to see him in the driver’s seat in name, as well as in fact.
He’s got to go first, and will, probably within a year, as the republicans start taking a good look at political extinction.
When those 11 repubs went over to the white house last week and climbed up on bush’s desk, dropped trou, and hung a big, collective shit, it was bad enough, but THEN they went and bragged to NBC that they’d done it. :o)
I bet for three days, you couldn’t have gotten a toothpick up Karl Rove’s ass, he was so puckered. :o)
But the point is, that was like the first warning from the mob, that payment is coming due. The next one won’t be so nice.
And, the political landscape that we’re looking at now, which is to say, the Mesopotamian landscape, is going to be looking a lot worse 6 months from now, that it does today. (Is it purty now?)
Politically speaking, a lot of repubs are already having wet dreams about bush’s head on a pike. 6 months-to-a-year from now, they will be holding public group dream-encounters, to talk about it. :o)
Right now, the dems MAY be saying to the republicans; probably ARE saying:
“We’re not going to get rid of them/him unless you help us.”
In fairly short order, the GOP will be pleading for the dems to publicly flash rock-solid impeachment numbers, to help THEM go room-to-room at the white house.
Wall St., the saner military men, the dems, and we, need to be on our toes to prevent a sneaker on Iran.
The rest of it will take care of itself.
Approval ratings in the low-20’s for a sitting president will take care of a LOT of knee-jerk patriotism. :o)
As always, who’s got the popcorn?
TeddySanFran @ 300
YAY!
Glenn Beck is on CNN….insult to injury
New Thread
seepeesate @ 237
Adie @ 265
No 3rd party for me. Always dilutes. And that is a stake that is too high for me.
I emailed Feinstein and Boxer, again. Boxer got the one that was relatively polite, since she’s actually usually a Democrat. I made the point to Boxer that this isn’t a war, but an occupation with an insurrection going on (yeah, I’d call it a civil war, but I was being polite).
The blunt talk:
“WE THE PEOPLE ARE PISSED at those who folded, because they’ve decided to give the Boy-King George what he wants – money and permission to continue the Occupation of Iraq – instead of what he really needs – a paddle to his rear end and a two-by-four to his wooden skull.”
TRex is upstairs
TeddySanFran @ 278
The
next step is the same one we should have been doing from the begining if Bush won’t comprimise we start holding votes to get the troops out and approve Military funding ONLY to bring our troops home! The Democrats took one step toward Bush at great risk (my anger) if he won’t meet them halfway then the Democrats should take two steps back and blame Bush if nothing passes, Iraq turns to genocide, Iran invades etc. This should be Bush’s LAST CHANCE. The next step should be PAIN!
I should probably join in with Eli and others who are trying to look at this in a more dispassionate way, one more bump in the road.
But, sadly, I can’t do that right now. I don’t know how I will feel in a week or a day. But, it is just so distressing to me that the level of political “compromise”/ triangulation seemingly goes forth with such low moral principles. That is, with no seeming acknowledgment or guilt at a personal level as to what we have done by starting “Mission Accomplished”.
I did not support the invasion, ever. I knew from the get go that this was a “bad idea”. I did not need to weigh the “evidence” in great detail to come to a conclusion.
But, I am not patting myself on the back right now for my prescient call on that one. Rather, I am totally distressed that so many have not taken the chance to weigh the evidence as to how much of a bad idea this was, and judge accordingly.
Does a political official threatening to change parties in order to obtain money (funding for something) constitute extortion?
Threat- an indication of something impending.
Muzzy @ 286
Perhaps
Tanbark @ 309
Yes, to all of it. And, of course, the BIG worry is Iran and the Lunatic with the Codpiece. Plus our MSM.
Tanbark at 267:
WELL PUT, AND RIGHT ON THE MARK:
Bob Moon @ 303
I’m with you. I am fed up with any Democrat that will not fight for the people that put them in office. The will of the people was loud and clear in November. This is a betrayal. There is no other way to look at it.
Valley Girl @ 317
Valley Girl, looks like we’re in the same place tonight.
Tanbark 309,
Hmmm…I think I feel better. I think, therefore, I am feeling better….?? Tell me. Is everything going to be alright? Can I sleep tonight?
TCU sed:
“The Democrats took one step toward Bush at great risk (my anger) if he won’t meet them halfway then the Democrats should take two steps back and blame Bush if nothing passes, Iraq turns to genocide, Iran invades etc. This should be Bush’s LAST CHANCE. The next step should be PAIN!”
This could be the source of Madame Speaker’s apparent malaise on the teevee.
Valley Girl @ 312
Don’t get me wrong, I’m still seriously pissed. This was wrong *and* stupid on pretty much every level.
LS @ 324
I think its an amb**n night.
TexBetsy @ 9
TB, bless you for being up front with it.
I haven’t been so depressed with my country since, since, Nixon, n two stolen elections, a failed effort post Katrina, invasion of Iraq, twice, and the present occupation of Iraq gearing up with 7 military bases, a MINIMUM of 200,000 forces ‘incountry’ and Blackwater to rule the home land.
As far as I can see, it’s over, it’s BEEN over, long ago, and the Fundie Christian Crusade on our own has been completely successful.
They own the DOJ, they are immersed into the GAO, they have infiltrated every governmental agency and wield incredible power and leverage. They are the new JackBooted Brown Shirts. Blackwater is the SS.
For depressiOn therapy, I’m going to a fest Th/Tuesday.
I hope a dose of 4,100 foot in my Sierra Nevada, and 5,000 or so of my closest friends, and endless jams and beer, whiskey and tequila will help wash this despair and despondence from my soul.
I’ll be away from phones, computers, newspapers, and tv’s.
My biggest decisions will be what to eat, what to drink, what to pick and when to sleep or wake up (excluding other human necessities I see NO need to trouble you fine FDL pups with).
I’m real, real, defeated. I hope to come back, and feel better. But if I don’t, I’ll read FDL for the lowdown, and I’ll be prepping for a move to Canada, and maybe we get to see some of my wife’s relatives in Nova Scotia before I hit my grave . . . I don’t think I can stay in this county another 10 years at this rate. I’m part disgusted, and I’m part ashamed to a point, I can’t even shower and wash my shame offa myself anymore.
Bless FDL. I’m goin festin.
Shit, as I type, Laurie Lewis comes up on a bluegrass internet feed:
‘Bless yer heart, you are my darling’.
Damn, but that woman can touch my soul . . (grin)
Indeed, I got my darlin. I hope all of you have or find yours, too.
Me n my darlin are goin festing, and playing music between the booked acts.
Here’s the fest link, check out that Spring Lineup!!!!! (BIGASSGRIN)
http://www.strawberrymusic.com/home.asp
GSD @ 208
Tunnel vision is an awesome force: I was just looking there for the France stuff I mentioned, saw the OBL picture, and kept right going because it wasn’t what I was looking for!
Zee @ 282
That reminds me of a comment about ruggie
Here
Symbolism does abound, look where W is standing … on the arrows
LS @ 323
ya didn’ ask me, but i’d say sure, as long as ya wake up full-a vinegar, ready to carry forth on the beliefs you hold dear tonight.
Just.don’t.give.up.
rover counts on you giving up.never forget that.you give up, he wins.
LS @ 305
The Call to Freedom
“Rise like Lions after slumber
In unvanquishable number -
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you -
Ye are many – they are few.”
By Shelley [with thanks to a Traveller on the blogs]
We have to remember that there are no white knights … none, not Gore, not Edwards, not anybody. We create change by our own sweat and tears … and this means we must fight harder, smarter, clearer …
kdh22 hi! so is Pelosi nervous that Bush won’t or will take the deal? Is she nervous because Rove is blackmailing her for more concessions or maybe the left wing of the party is threating to remove her?
“I think we could end the war now.”
Please, Eli, can you put up the specifics of how we, or Pelosi, are going to do that?
Maybe it’s a question of what you mean by “ending the war”. Because; if you just equate removing the coalition troops from Iraq with ending the war, then, Pollyanna gets a cracker.
But if you’re talking about us ending the fighting and sectarian violence, by Pelosi and company working some “Lord of the Rings” magic by which hauling out our troops will turn the Iraqis into fervent Jeffersonians, with the spirit of compromises the size of Switzerland welling up in their breasts, then, WADR, I think you’re mistaken.
And if the democrats DO that, for the republicans, it will be the damndest “Get out of jail free” card since the game of Monopoly was invented.
Siun @ 332
Thank you for your clear voice, and big heart, Siun.
Adie @ 331
I, for one, will NEVER give up. That being said, sometimes the fight sucks.
Things Come Undone @ 334
Are those the only two optionS?
Tanbark @ 330
You’re asking the wrong person. That was Things Come Undone @285.
Zee @ 337
yup! but it beats the alternative…
Siun @ 328
We need to at least have leaders who don’t actively work *against* us, though…
Eli @ 341
tell.them!
Bullies also tend to back down when you punch them in the nose. The Democrats haven’t punched Bush in the nose nearly enough.
True that. And a good enough punch in the nose can set up other things.
You know, i wonder whether I wasn’t half-hearing Fran Townsend’s name in what I thought I heard this morn—though I also seemed to hear something about a newly-appointed Interior minister in the same story. Oh well.
Zee @ 327
It seems the we just swallowed the “choke” part of a artichoke. I got that rallying feeling now though. I’m at the “just try me” stage of p’ssd off. New Rule: Congress ladies, ditch the damn South Sea pearl jewelry. What are you thinking??? That has been bugging the s*** out of me for a year. NOLA is destroyed! Destroyed!!!!! A HUGE part of one of the major cities of the United States was DESTROYED nearly 2 year ago!!! How can you rest until that is dealt with???? How many actually died? (that is another story all by itself) You decide to flaunt freaking pearls!! WTF. What is wrong with you people? The interesting thing is that today, Pelosi was without her pearls. What’s up Nancy???
TeddySanFran @ 300
As opposed to what, talking in tongues? (/snark)
Hand to god, I’ve seen the devil, and he tried to deep kiss me in places inappropriate to my sexual proclivities. N that was just my WALLET!
More details about snowbird42’s heartening news @ 146:
Eli – agreed but we keep thinking that if we just elect a different set of leaders who come from the exact same mindset (corporate interests, american exceptionalism, etc etc) we just repeat today over and over.
And so today we go “if only Gore” or “if only Edwards” or …
just as we said “if only Webb” or “if only Pelosi” or …
Then we back down, lay low and forget to keep pressing for what we want – not what they say we can have.
LS @ 344
I’ve vented and I’m beginning to see a different perspective. Beginning. I’m not there yet. Our reps are smart people (generally). They know that the people who voted them into office did so because of Iraq. There’s got to be more to the story. We don’t know what’s happening behind the scenes. I think I’ll be ready to fight again tomorrow. More calls. More emails.
Larue, good to hear you SLIDIN’ in here, son.
:o) :o) :o)
Aint Laurie a peach? I could Waltz Across Texas with her. :o)
And the FDL wimmens, too, despite mixin’ it up a little with them, now and then. :o)
They’re bright minds and good bravehearts, they is.
:o)
Le’s get ‘em, guys!
pow wow @ 346
Too bad the press treats Kucinich like a side show. He is a patriot. He knows he will not get the nomination, but believes he has a message worth telling and a fight worth fighting. If the other DEM members of the House had 1/10th his courage, we would not have had the sorry day we had today.
Pachacutec @ 20
Pach, lemme be angry and pissed as you are too, and take the gavel.
Christine Craft, on 1240 am Sacto today . . . . go to the fuckin post office, get a Change Of Voter Information Form, and declare ‘DECLINE TO STATE”!!!!
The Dem’s, and the pub’s if publican’s will do this, will be loading their undie’s as they watch their numbers that are used for POLLING, and FUNDRAISING, go all to hellllllll.
I got mine, it goes in tomorrow.
Now, unless YOUR state is different than MINE (CA), I can switch to Decline To State, fuck with big brother across the board, get SOMEONE’s attention, and vote for ANYONE I WANT, in the primary, and in the General Erection.
I’ts pretty much all I got left to do, other n to start workin on my Canuckistanian , , , Eh? (smile)
CHANGE YOUR PARTY ALLEGIANCE TO DECLINE TO STATE!!!
It will have a HUGE and immediate impact if the blog’s pick it up, and run with it. It EASILY could steer California into a new paradigm.
Please, FDL, pick up the mantra and spread its word.
There ain’t much else left, and I KNOW CHS, and Jane, and TRex know this, that it’s pretty much over as is . . . . so this is it, take a shot at DECLINE TO STATE. Maybe, it buys enuff time for impeachments to proceed (although I doubt it, they is all on the same PAC sides of Big Bro).
I, for one, will be up fighting my butt off tomorrow (after I watch Monica, of course). I hope she does the right thing. I will not give up fighting for our rights and our freedom!!! I will never back down!!
I want people to know that I have hit a bully in the nose and he in fact did back down.
Actually I hit one bully, Raymond Burke, right in the breadbasket -knocked the wind clean out of him -while on the playground in kindergarten and as a result he and his playground toadie, Steve, who swung his full arm cast like a plaster mace, just piddled away never to raise another threat again.
He cried and cried that day, but none of the teachers ever said a word to me about it. It turned out okay, but that was kindergarten.
Muzzy @ 353
Same difference.
TeddySanFran @ 148
I had to take my 15-year old out driving…OMG!
Teddy, I really don’t know what the strategy is. This whole scenario is unprecedented in our history. Lots of people want to say the Iraq occupation parallels Vietnam. I don’t agree. Beside occupation, I can’t come up with one other concrete parallel.
Many want to compare the Watergate to USAttygate. I don’t see it. Shrub has cornered the market on corruption. Nixon could have only dreamed of being as sinister as Shrub.
Point being, we have no precedent on which to gauge the next move or step. I’m frustrated too. Like most Americans I expect instant gratification. I wanted resolution and peace yesterday. I’ve resigned myself to the hope that they are smarter in the ways of politics and strategy. Maybe they don’t have a trick up their collective sleeve. If they don’t, it’s only because they haven’t faced this before. IMVHO for what it’s worth.
I am not sure but registering as decline to state may disable your ability to vote in a primary.. It’s worth asking locally before you make the change.
Tanbark @ 349
Hey buddy!! What are YOU doin up this late, way out there in the heart of Snake Handlin Land?!?!?!?!? (GRIN)
Yeah, there I was, stewin in my misery, n Laurie comes on with that song, and I’m busted out bawlin like a baby thinkin of my old lady just a wall and a few feet away in the other room. Hope. Faith.
I’m SOOOO pissed, and you got my emails today . . . and you know I’m about ready to scoot for The MapleLeaf if this don’t turn around (take us 3-5 years to make the dash, but, if we start now . . . ).
I’m a self admitted suurrender monkey of a hippie love child lifestyle.
Perhaps, 5 days of pickin and newgrassin and in general, FREE FOR ALL FESTIN will save my soul. 3am camp jam prowls, find one that’s JUUUUUUSSSTT right, and ther’s a fresh bottle to open for 6 pickers, just enuff to get us to daylight, and to empty our song lists for a while. (smile)
But, I’m NOT optimistic. The Dem’s are owned and managed by the same OverSeer’s as the Pubs. That’s where I just got NOTHING to believe in, not one positive thought.
That damn glass of mine sure don’t look half full anymore . . . I may hafta change my handle.
Good to see ya out and about my friend. Give em hell in Snake Country!!!! (grin)
kdh22 – in the run-up to this funding battle, Bush has been bloodied but not knocked down. He’s bending back but not yet breaking. If Congress can definitively nail his ass during the time needed for investigations between now and September, we could be in a different place all together where pulling the trap door on his war could occur with nary a squeak.
0Eli @ 294
The things they do look awfull ccccccc . . collllllldddddd . . .
larue @ 351
go ahead, if you feel you must,
and rover will be laughing all the way to the bank…
I’m gonna keep my party affiliation so I can vote in primaries. And I’ll keep up a dialogue with my congresscritters to talk sense into them, as much as is humanly possible.
Of all the zillions of newscrap sites I have on my startup page and bookmarks, how come the only one that carries the story (not roll unfortunately) of this House vote today is Al Jazeera?
http://english.aljazeera.net/N…..9EBBB7.htm
Anybody got a line on the roll vote?
“On the other hand, the worst-case scenario would be that Fuhrer … lets the troops run out of food and bullets and fuel so he can blame it on the Democrats. He may very well be the only president in history [who] would be capable of such a tactic.”
Hitler abandoned thousands of German troops at Stalingrad and the Japanese high command wrote off hundreds of thousands of troops on Pacific islands during WW II, all because they didn’t live up to the unrealistic expectations of the Fuhrer and the Emperor. George W. Bush is very much like Hitler and Hirohito in that he would sacrifice American troops with no remorse what so ever. Impeachment is the only answer.
Adie @ 247
Excellent plan and we should also make sure they read and absorb Framing the Debate by Jeffrey Feldman. He lays out an essential playbook to win elections at every level of our nation IMHO.
Got that right
- Arch from Vermont
Beppu50 @ 362
LS; let me be as accurate as possible about my cynicism.
Time is not on george bush’s side. He’s running out of “stay the course” chits to pass out.
Does anyone think Gordon Brown is coming into office for poodle-continuity purposes?
In D.C., every rat that’s heading down the hawser-line is now carrying a suitcase full of “dubya political capital” with him.
The “Close aide bus-throw” is going to become a valid candidate for “new sport” consideration in the next olympics. :o)
A substantial part of the American military is in…quiet…revolt (morphing into open revolt) as they are increasingly being used to cover george bush and the republicans’ political asses, and for NOTHING ELSE, in this misery. And a lot of americans are starting to realize it. AND, I guarantee you, some top-end political candidate, a democrat, of course, is going to speak words very close to that, in the not too distant future.
There is a tough idea-fight going on in a lot of people’s minds. It has to do with wanting to end this shit, definitively, but at the same time, even if they aren’t well enough informed to know the specific shit-probabilities and the shit near-certainties, they have this vague unease that “ending the war” will NOT be like bailing in Vietnam, where we could git, and chalk up one agrarian Marxist regime (which we could have had a million or so lives earlier) with not one fucking domino in sight.
It’s funny, in a blackhumor way: Now, with BIG, BAD, REAL dominoes leanin’ ever’ which way in Iraq (thank you, george) the ginner-uppers of the shitmire really don’t want to discuss the little black blocks with the dots on them.
Or, if they do, it’s in a general; apres-nous; le merde-sturm!
Cheyney: “Tim, if we leave, it’ll be catastrophic”
Russert: “And what set of jingo-assholes dumped this Hobson’s ebola-choice on us, Mr. Vice Preznit?”
(Wait…I think I fantasized that last one…)
Eli; I fully understand your passion to end this, and that of the others on this good site, too. But it just isn’t as simple as cutting off funds. I insist, if they HAD a veto-proof majority, for the dems to force a withdrawal would put the inevitable chaos squarely on their doorstep. The voters, looking at the effects of partition (again, the “good” scenario) would not say:
“How courageous of the dems, to put their heads on the political chopping block, just to bring our troops home.”
The republicans, and the MSM, will not let them THINK it, much less say it. There will be a Hitler-in-the-early-1930’s media dogpile about “who ruined the Fatherland” that will boggle the mind, and incidentally, let the GOP slide, for their murderous asshattery.
Nancy’s not perfect, but she’s a tough, courageous, and SAVVY politician. She’ll make some compromises that will piss off the best progressives, but would anyone like to compare her stands, with those of the current frontrunner for the democratic nomination?
If Pelosi comes out to run, I’ll be sad not to have her as Madam Speaker, but I’ll push peanuts down the street with my nose, for her.
For HRC, I would not pee on her feet, if they were on fire.
IF she is nominated, I will hold my nose and vote for her, while cursing the terminally masochistic compulsion of the democratic party.
It’s late; and I’m tired, but I swear, folks, we aint doin’ half bad.
Keep this in mind; just because we know how wrong it was to try to invade and occupy Iraq, does NOT mean that we have to engineer the leaving, while the people who did the most to create this lunatic’s crusade, sit on their hands, waiting for us to bail THEM out, so they can rip us to shreads for doing it.
Guys, this one is for all the marbles. It’s for keeps, socially and politically. Let’s play it that way, and cynically, if need be; please?
US officials/expert say Iran can have a nuke in two years now… wow, what perfect timing for boy George to have to take extraordinary steps in extraordinary times to “keep us safe”.
Wow, mortal peril.
STTP in Ohio @ 154
He’s a shill for a new breed of Big Brothuh, which is the old Big Bra Mahn.
He’s a shill for the nukes.
He’s a false savior. Actually, there ARE no saviour’s out there.
The ‘Merican People gonna have to pull this one out by taking it to the streets. And boycotting everything in sight, and doing without.
Oh, wait, we don’t DO without too good anymore. We are our own enemy, and we don’t need no stinkin Pogo or badges to tell us.
Like the dem’s, the American populous is fat and happy for the status quo, and will ONLY fight for that, not for meaningful change.
That’s a recipe for horrible things, and then, Mama Nature or the economy, busts it all apart . . . history proves it, over and over again.
The more mankind repeats the same progressions, the faster the progession plays itself out.
At some point, soon, the USA is NOT, and us HOOMAN’S is confronted with scaling back and surviving with less.
This summer is going to be hot and expensive.
People are not going to drink piss with a lemonade label on it…I hope.
Its alway something stupid (in the scheme of things) that makes the slumbering american idiots roll in their sleep. Perhaps $4 gas will give people pause.
Just wait until our 2 year running covert actions in Iran sparks the incident boy George is looking for. Methinks a draft or market crash will not go un-noticed by the sleepers.
If things get much worse before folk in the poor, military, or middle-class have had any advantage from the “turn around” and “historic” economic profits boom… how is that going to play?
prostratedragon @ 155
Yer a dragon, you don’t GET muzzled. You either breathe fire, prostate or not, or yer slain. That’s where we are at. Simple.
ONLY, NO one has the dragon balls to call it for what it is. So, we is slain.
It ain’t time to play politics anymore . . . . n this is where I disagree with my buddy Tanbark . . . the GAME is over, we are NOW either dying, or fighting for some semblance of survival. It don’t much matter WHAT happens in Iraq, the GAME is over.
So far, I see a lot of surrender monkey’s in our leadership.
There’s no appeasement available, anyone thinks that there is, is a phool.
The Pub’s have defined the RULES siince ‘84, and MADE the rules, since ‘84.
That ANYONE opposed TO the pub’s or Big Brother would would even CONSIDER PLAYING BY THE RULES OF LEVERAGE, is quite dismaying, and surrendering, in of itself.
That means impeachment is the only lot left, for ALL the things that are there.
But alas, the full force of our three part legislative system has been usurped, corrupted, and infiltrated and is now a mere puppetry of itself as writ on the paper of our Founders.
I dont’ see impeachment happening, so, I’m pretty sure, the white flag has risen, and the rest of it all is being cherry picked item by item in the mopup of our republic that ain’t.
Stock up on food and water, and get ready to sign an oath of allegiance, cuz that’s the NEXT thing coming down the pipe.
Yer either with them, or yer against them. September, ‘07. Martial law.
RedX; plenty of OTHER experts are saying that that about a nuke in two years for Iran is bullshit.
When bushCo starts funnel-feeding the WMD koolaid to the MSM again, all the dems have to do is point to their track-record and ask the people:
“You guys wanna buy another mid-east war from these futurist-wizards?” :o)
Tanbark – great post @ 365. You remind me of someone.
War is going badly, Prez isn’t popular, why not say no $ unless we establish standards, way out?
I don’t understand.
“
To these ‘too clever for their own good’ Congressional types, it’s not “insanity” because their eye is on the glittering “prize” – decades of unbelievable stockholder and stockmarket profits (at the expense of American taxpayers, Iraqi citizens and the new nation of Iraq); profits that would result from control of the “exceptionally rich” Iraqi oil fields, and that control is creeping closer and closer to our permanent grasp and looking more and more like an obtainable “benchmark” (thus all the FU surges as we wait for the American-written oil-theft bill to be passed into law in Iraq).
“
This will not happen, and even if it does as we well know the “law” can be changed. Especially when it was created while your country was occupied by an invader.
Its likely to happen in any case since it will increase the insurgency in a measurble degree. And we would need to keep how may troops in there for how long – and how far flung are the oil pipelines.
About the only crazy chance of this is if the US is at war with IRAN and by some miracle Iraq is more safe for our supply lines (from Kuwait/Afganistan/etc to Iraq to Iran) so we could get a 2-for occupying Iraq/oil and using it as one of many staging grounds for Iran…well you see that is not going anywhere, I just don’t see any way. I guess the other way would be to allow Exxon and Helliburton to keep a 150,000 merc army – one that would be big enough to do damange to ours, which does not seem like such a good plan either.
What the hell are they thinking?
It was all just for show, a bit of theatre, as I had noted here at the beginning of the first round. You can’t be let down when your expectations are so well met.
On the plus side, from a Machiavellian point of view, this will keep the issue of Iraq alive during the entire election season. I still believe that benefits Democrats more than Republicans, however, one must never underestimate the influence of AIPAC.
The other issue not to underestimate is that of illegal immigration. Dems could lose on that alone — I predict it could be the seminal issue of ‘08. So far, the democratic rhetoric I’ve heard is out of step with where I think quite possibly the majority of the voters are.
Oh and don’t forget the closed door secret trade agreement (fast track to Bush who will take out all the worker/environmental protection). What a crap week.
I guess at least I don’t consider 95% on either side gives a 1/2 seconds pause to what any of us cares about. Hell even when they are out of power only about 10% of them lose their job…there is no incentive at all.
Gotta really do some campagine finance and get it out of the hands of the rich. Yea, whatever I have a problem with the “rich” – get over it.
What Tanbark @ 365 said.
Betrayed. Pissed. Unforgiving. Unforgetting.
This was your chance, Nance. I don’t buy your screed, Reid.
Don’t come to me for more; it’s not there.
The Washington Democrats pulled the football away just as Charlie Brown was about to kick it…again!
what an astonishing surprise – it is as if they don’t really want to end the war like they said on the campaign trail!
well no worries, the betrayal will sting a bit, but the rubes can be counted upon to always vote for the least worst, no matter how bad they get f*cked each time they do so!
nope, time to change the equation and vote and work to support candidates who share your principles.
If your principles really are “tiny, symbolic, incremental improvements and toothless investigations, plus plenty of corruption, cynicism, and insulting palaver” then well, the Democratic Party is for you!
But if you beleive that armed slaughter, torture, and threats of nuclear first strike against a country that does not pose a threat to the USA is not the way to do it, well sorry, the Democratic Party is not for you … those who started out trying earnestly to reform it from within are now sad examples of the Stockholm Syndrome, mouthing the platitudes of their captors.
(D) Pragmatists ahoy – either end the war and impeach before 08, or you are co-owners of it, and the vast majority of Americans who oppose the way the country is going …
… will have to seek political representation elsewhere.
According to Chalmers Johnson, from
http://tomdispatch.com/index.mhtml?pid=194902
Though according to the Orthodox Donkey Defenders, Chalmers Johnson can be dismissed by saying the magic word; “troll!”
TeddySanFran @ 278
The next step is for the true Dems in both Houses to vote NO on this abominable piece of compromise (give away). They are under no obligation to send him another funding bill; the earlier Defense appropriation has enough money to cover everything they need and Bush said he would take the funding from other pots of money. Alternatively, revisions to this bill in conference would include timelines for withdrawal or some language Bush would veto.
Then the next steps include continued hearings and investigations of wrong doing all the way through 2008.
The nasty fact necessitating this action is that the Dems do not have the votes to sustain a veto nor the votes to accomplish impeachment.
What they do have with their slender majority is the power to allow legislation to be voted on.
Throughout these months the Democratic message ought to be the Republican slaughter of our troops = each new death (and there will be plenty) should be laid at the feet of Bush et al.
“But I digress into unsavory and incoherent metaphor.” Eli
No, you don’t. It’s not incoherent at all. It’s precisely what’s happening. W just took another big ol crap in bed and our elected are asking whether they should clean it up or just lie down in the steamy-stinky pile. It’s pathetic.
Screw Pelosi…she had her chance and BLEW IT. Shes sucking up to Bush and thats not what we voted her and party in power to do. WE DID NOT VOTE FOR THEM TO WATCH THEM COWER IN THE FACE OF BUSH’S TANTRUMS GODDAMMIT!
We have our soldiers in the middle of an UNWINNABLE CIVIL WAR getting killed maimed everyday. And the dems know this is unwinnable yet they back down…that is sick. We have Exxon/Mobile crushing the lives of average hard working Americans with their control of the flow of gasoline. We have Bush/Cheney trying to attack Iran under any false reason he can generate…you have all probably noticed a sudden leap in anti Iran propaganda in the last few days…its starting in earnest and will happen soon.
MOBILIZE AGAINST EXXON/MOBILE. BOYCOTT ALL THINGS EXXON. Lets move to get a groundswell of support for boycotts and possibly a one day general strike..to be 2, then a week if they do capitulate to WE THE PEOPLE!. I know it sounds absurd. I know your all thinking “yeah right…fat chance”. BULLSHIT. THIS NATION HAS HAD IT WITH THE CRIMINALS IN THE WHITE HOUSE and THE DEMOCRATS THAT ARE COWERING FROM THEM. The vast majority of the nation is on our side and will get behind us if we can start this war. The dems do not care that the oil companies are literally holding all working Americans HOSTAGE to their gasoline prices. The dems WILL DO NOTHING TO STOP THIS CRIME OR THE CRIME IN IRAQ or the crime thats about happen in Iran.
Mobilize against EXXON/MOBILE. Start talk of a general strike…it may not even have to happen as the mere mention of such a thing will strike fear in the pockets of the rich (they have no heart). That is how we bring the white house down…no one day protest will do it. Only a declaration of war against the corporates will get action.
It has to start with the liberal blogoshpere. We know there is power here….we can start the tsunami. WE ARE THE TSUNAMI. We need a WAVE OF ANTI CORPORATE ACTIONS. Can someone start a major thread calling for this action? I dont have enough clout around here. Can someone start a thread announcing a call to arms with the target as WALL STREET and the CORPORATIONS? We need to push the dems aside as they are clearly part of the problem not the solution. We need this strategy to be headline not buried in our blogging. Can we do this? YES! Will it be easy? No but it can happen. Spread out across the blogosphere, sign up for all of our favorite blogs (you know who they are) and push this message: WE ARE DONE WAITING FOR LEADERS TO STOP THE BLOODLETTING AND THE RAPE OF THE AMERICAN WORKER BY EXXON. DONE.
Please FDL…we must get our soldiers out Iraq and the dems are useless. I am shaking with anger as I think of more young men dying in Iraq while Pelosi BACKS THE WHITE HOUSE CALL FOR MORE DEAD SOLDIERS. And the corporations are the real hidden reason for all of this sick shit and we the people are about to STOP IT. This the time and this is the moment.
Mobilize against Exxon/Mobile. Start the talk of a general strike by all those held hostage by big oil and all those who cry for our soldiers. That will scare the hell out of these MFs.
simple- vote the buggers out
“Screw Pelosi. She had her chance and blew it.”
I can’t believe some of you guys. I mean, it’s a revelation, how naive you are.
There is a child a-borning in Iraq, as we speak.
The birth process has been long and bloody, and is going to be more so.
It’s agonizing, for those of us with the smarts and the conscience to know how unnecessary this unwanted “pregnancy” was and is.
The baby, when it comes all the way out, will have horns and a tail, and it’s Mom’s name is “Rosemary”.
At this point, the identity of the father is also NOT at issue. He is one George W. Bush.
But for some perverse reason; mostly, I think, impatience; a lot of decent and otherwise perceptive people would like for the democrats to raise their hands, and start claiming paternity for the little bastard, AND for his post-partum behavior.
Not good.
Pelosi and the dems are doing all they can.
At this point, they are doing all they SHOULD do.
They do not have a veto-proof majority.
I’m sorry, but this is an excellent and useful fact. It means that no matter what the republicans say, the democrats do NOT bear the responsibility for ending the war.
That little responsibility-seed is something that the GOP would dearly love to implant in the american psyche. Kinda like the monster pupae in the “Alien” movies. In fact, they, in their slimeball hypocrisy, are already trying to do it.
“See! They have a one-vote majority in the Senate! It’s ALL their fault!”
Just imagine what they would be doing if Pelosi and company really COULD manage to pull the plug on the war.
About a month ago, Obama said:
“We shouldn’t play chicken with the troops lives at stake.”
I assume he had a turd in his pocket, when he used that collective pronoun, because the democrats are NOT the ones playing chicken.
Or, not very well. That would be the republicans, who are daring US to trigger the inevitable ending (it will also be a “beginning”, just not the one that Perle and Wolfowitz envisioned), so they can point to the results of THEIR little passion-play-in-the-desert, and rip US for “creating” those results.
Guys, it’s simple. George Bush’s ‘nads are in that same old bench vise. HE put them there, but at this point, the handle is being turned by lots of people…including Ms. Pelosi. :o)
Why on earth would WE want to start backing off on the pressure, and let him extract himself and the republicans, and then turn around and blame us for the denouement?
Everytime someone posts about Pelosi selling out, by not doing some mysterious feats of political legerdemain, using powerful magic that she got in last November’s mid-terms, they’re saying that they think what follows a pull-out from Iraq will be, if not “good”, then at least tolerable, for the people who engineer it.
It is abject nonsense. And Pelosi knows it, as do most democrats and a lot of republicans.
The game of “chicken” is afoot, dear Watsons, and we might as well realize it, and start playing it ourselves. WE have the hammer. It’s a good’ern.
Time, itself. :o)
All we have to do is wait, and watch the dumbshit repubs, as they keep playing that old John-Wayne-climbs-Suribachi clip in their heads. That is, until, as with the “Goldwater 11″ last week, enough of them holler:
“Help!!! 2008!!!”… and come to the democrats and say: “Okay. Let’s do it.”
Does anyone think that, at this point, most american voters are confused about who bears most of the responsibility for what has happened in Iraq, and MUCH more importantly, for what is GOING to happen there?
I hope none of you think that. I also hope that none of you are really willing to change that, by having Pelosi, etc, IF they could, pull the plug on the war and trigger the shit that is going to follow our leaving.
Somewhere there is a granite cenotaph with the words on it:
“THEY started it; we begged them not to. The result is highly likely to be pure hell. Let THEM have the responsibility for ending it.”
Specifically, that little referendum mandate for Kirkuk that’s graven in stone in the Iraqi “constitution” by the end of the year, is a pre-meteor, meteor. Bush would love, in fact; he just about HAS to, get the Kurds to postpone that vote. I don’t know if he can. It’s the very reason that Talabani and the Kurds joined the Kum-ba-yah “greater Iraq” chorus, and it’s the cornerstone of their push for an independent state.
I don’t know what bush can offer Talabani to make them postpone it. I doubt he’ll settle for the taxpayer-funded visit to an american fat-farm that is on his schedule this week.
Anyway, when that goes down, it will almost certainly give control of Kirkuk to the Kurds, along with a legitimate claim to at least some of the those giant fields around Kirkuk.
The Turks are adamant in their position against this. Their military is about 2 generals away from a coup, as we speak. The next Turkish leader is going to be doing some saber-rattling that will make bush’s waving his toy sword at Iran look like…a kid waving a toy sword.
As I said up-thread, Gordon Brown is not going to pick up the poodle-jacket that bush knitted for Blair, and put it on. 1600 Brits are scheduled to leave by the end of the summer; maybe sooner, if the increase in casualties that they’ve been taking in the south continues.
All we have to do (”we” being the new alliance of Wall St. repubs; the saner generals, and the saner congresscritters, and us, of course) is watch bush very closely, to make sure that he doesn’t do a midnight attack on Iran, and, of course, keep the pressure on. The rest of it is on the way. Probably, within a year, but it’s entirely possible that the republicans will see what’s staring them in the face, sooner, and we could have Cheyney going within 6-8 months, and that will trigger all sorts of things.
I think Rice may take off to be the Provost at Bob Jones University. :o) Or maybe she can get Halliburton to name a tanker truck after her, for moving into their corporate boardroom.
The weather’s brewing up, but it’s nothing we can’t handle. :o)
Steady as she goes, Captain Pelosi.
Eli, great rant. This is a frustrating turn of events if ever there was one. It’s amazing the front these guys put on. They looked so strong and hardy, but they broke because they couldn’t get a veto override? Uh.
According to WaPo:
At least she’s still got some balls.
Sporkovat:
“It’s as if they don’t really want to end the war like they said on the campaign trail.”
Spot-on, Spork! They DON’T want to end it…
They want the people who started it to end it.
That way, the RIGHT set of assholes (pun intended) will get blamed for what follows.
Aint it awful? :o)
Meanwhile another 9 soldiers have been killed according to reports I saw on Democratic Underground.
Yep…just give our good dem leaders time and benefit of doubt. After all we are not suffering are we?
It’s time to organize a boycott of the 2008 election. The way this is shaping up, we’ll still be fighting in Iraq in November, 2008, with more troops there than ever, and with two opposing candidates speaking in reversible platitudes. (It’s be a lot like 1968 without the draft there to keep the tension a little higher.)
I think organizing a boycott of the 2008 election–with a primary-season show of strength is what’s needed now. Maybe that will get the Democrats’ attention!
Jonnyra; your concern is touching.
And what do you think will happen if Pelosi and the democrats end it?
Tell us your plan for the apple-pie scenario that will follow, complete with the gratitude of an adoring nation?
Eli says:
“We cannot afford to let the republicans be the heroes, after 5 years of villany.”
Anyone who thinks that whomever is responsible for pulling our troops out of Iraq will be viewed as “heroes” by the american electorate is living on Mars.
What is disheartening about this view of the shitmire, is that you people don’t understand the pressure that the republicans are under.
You have this foolish idea that they can continue this for years, even decades.
They cannot.
If the democrats pull the plug, the republicans will lay everything that follows on them.
The clock is ticking, on the people who started this misery. Get out of your panic mode, and let it tick.
BTW, I haven’t read the Bush-Cheyney thread, but the headline about them having to go, before the war can end, is on the money.
THOSE two republicans don’t WANT the democrats, or anyone else, to end it. It’s their baby, and they aint gonna kill it themselves.
Removing them will be; will HAVE to be, the most bi-partisan thing that’s been done in George Bush’s two terms.