(The bank that was the site of the Norrmalmstog Robbery, the event that led to the coining of the term "Stockholm Syndrome". If you can't see this picture, go here, download a free copy of Firefox, and then try it again.)
It is indicative of the decades-long iron control the Republicans and their fellow conservatives have had on American discourse that, unless they make a conscious effort to do otherwise, regular people and even progressives speak using FOX News framing on the issues. Worse yet, with time and usage, the Overton Windows start to work their magic, and what would have been unthinkable when expressed in standard English becomes settled policy in the lexicon dictated by Republican FOX Newspeak.
We've seen it with the Republicans' use of "the death tax" for the estate tax — a tax 99.99% of the readers of this site will never come close to having to pay and is only paid by the very richest Americans. We've seen it with the media's adoption of the term "partial-birth abortion", which is a made-up term with no medical meaning, only an ideological one.
And now we see two Democratic Senators from Montana — guys who should flipping know better — putting smiles on Karl Rove's face as they undermine their fellow Dems:
"It's time for a change of course in Iraq, and I'm committed to working together with my colleagues on a solution," Baucus said in a prepared statement. "However, I'm not for pulling the rug out from under our brave military men and women serving in Iraq. I cannot support cutting off funding while they're fighting on the frontlines overseas. It just wouldn't be right."
[and]
"I am doing everything in my power as a U.S. senator to end the war in Iraq, but I will not cast any vote that I believe compromises the safety and security of our troops on the ground," Tester said, also in a prepared statement.
"I have said for two years that the president needs to develop a plan to get us out of Iraq," Tester said. "The Congress and the American people have spoken; the president needs to start listening."
As Matt Singer of Left in the West says in response to this:
There's a couple problems with this — first and foremost, it's misleading. As a staffer from one of their offices told me himself, there's this whole false understanding that passing Feingold-Reid would literally mean that tanks in Iraq would start running out of gas and the like. That's simply not true — and it's not how our government actually operates. Our Senators shouldn't perpetuate myths.
Second, they're both using common right-wing attacks to undermine progressive Democratic leadership. They could have both simply said, "My position is that the President and the Pentagon need to come up with a plan. This bill doesn't accomplish that." Instead, they threw in a gratuitous, "Leading members of my own party want to 'pull out the rug' on our troops in a way that 'I believe compromises the safety and security of our troops on the ground.'" Those are Mitch McConnell's talking points.
Third, they've effectively locked themselves in. If this vote was simply out-of-line with their current position, they could move based on new evidence. But they've now said anything like Feingold-Reid is tantamount to voting against the troops — something that will no doubt be used against them if they change their position down the road as it becomes clear that President Manchild refuses to do anything about the mess he's gotten our country in.
Yup, yup and yup. There's understanding the other side's viewpoint, and then there's mindlessly repeating it verbatim like some sort of Stockholm Syndrome victim. If you're going to disagree with your own side's leadership, at least try not to sound like Tony-flippin'-Snow when you're doing it.



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ZED?!
evenin
Jane!
Lock Rupert Murdoch up and throw away the key.
Phoenix Woman, your post addresses exactly the word-play that has allowed the neo-cons to stay in power and to disregard enlightenment.
Mr. Rove’s office must have those little magnetic words, designed for “poets” to adhere to their fridges.
Only his adhere to the brains of Republicans.
Cut-and-run, for example, illustrates this perfectly. That’s all a Republican has to say in response to a well thought-out Democratic position. “Cut and run.”
I say, if the world operates in sound bytes, let’s stop fighting it.
Take the president’s evaluation of the no-confidence vote for Alberto Gonzales. He’s calling it “political theater,” (assuming I heard right while dozing earlier to KO).
Well, let’s have the lawmakers use it right back at him: “Here’s your ‘political theater’, Mr. President, in the pursuit of truth.”
Karl Rove’s early success was working the Democrats’ advantages to become their disadvantages. Surely, people way smarter than I can do the same and allow the Republicans to see the errrrs of their ways.
I try my best not to pull any punches when disagreeing with ‘my side’ (Dems).
This has been a theme on the blogs today, which is a very good thing. I posted this over at TPM in response to another poster who was trying to pull the ‘Support the Troops’ scam:
I’m *still* waiting.
Pet peeve. Democrats using right wing talking points make me want to shoot someone in the face. We really need to send most of them to re-education camp until they learn to stop.
Of course there’s HoJo, who does it intentionally. But the average Dem, I think, just does it out of reflexive obeisance to conservative bullies so they won’t be called out as “liberals.”
Evening, P.W.
I always find your posts invigorating and informative.
I don’t know what to say in response to this one, except yes, we’re disappointed to see votes and reasoning like what Baucus & Tester came out with.
I think we must continue trying to reason with such folks, and not completely give up on them, based on one vote.
It’s disheartening and discouraging to have to do this, but please don’t give up on them. Be my guest, & continue pestering them & trying to get across to them WHY their decision is NOT what you expect from them.
Short of that? …?
The Dems are preparing to cave to bush on the withdrawal timelines.
When are we ever going to end the fucking occupation?!?
Two names: Baucus & Tester = two words: freaking idiots!
One answer I have yet to hear from any democrat to the charge of “You’re not supporting the troops.” Is “What kind of commander leaves his troops in harms way without adequate support? If there is no support, they should be withdrawn. We won the war, now it’s time to end the occupation.”
Jane Hamsher @ 8
All of the dems need to memorize the speech from the American President.
I remember seeing it in the movie theater and the crowd broke out in applause when he was done. That doesn’t happen in movie theaters . . . but it did. This president knew how to reframe the debate.
Aaron Sorkin, where are you?
(program still won’t compile. considering entering a nunnery…)
from CNN on today’s “lackluster support of Gonzales”:
“As for the attorney general’s stops in Switzerland and Budapest, Hungary, Justice Department spokesman Brian Roehrkasse said they had never been set in stone. He said Gonzales would leave Tuesday for meetings in Munich that are a leadup to next month’s gathering in Germany of leaders of eight major industrial democracies.
Roehrkasse said Gonzales had hoped to travel to the International Law Enforcement Academy in Budapest for a tour and a meeting that ultimately could not be scheduled. Similarly, Roehrkasse said Gonzales was too short on time to make it to Switzerland, and that no meeting there was ever confirmed.
Sascha Hardegger, a spokesman for the Swiss Justice Ministry, said Washington called off the meeting.”
Bottom line: the two countries mentioned flatly refused to have a de-facto felon parading around pretending to be the USAG.
we *are* making a difference folks….
PW!!! Don’t they call the Estate Tax, the Walton’s Tax Relief Bill??? Helps all 4 of them!!!
Read the polls guys, they should help you grow some stones…
Maybe they are on the Madam’s list????? :P
I’m a left-wing radical liberal Democrat patriot. And damn proud of it. Any right wingers lurking at this got a problem with that?
The impeachment of Bush is just a success that hasn’t happened yet.
From the official website of the Speaker of the House:
Why O Why do these Democrats fail to understand the concept of framing an issue? It seems like they use GOP talking points even when trying to refute the GOP. That. Will. Never. Work.
This is Bill Murray stepping in a puddle. For Congressional Dems, every day is Groundhog Day.
Speaker Pelosi, please explain in detail how funding the Iraq war “supports our troops”.
CTuttle @ 15
Call it the “Bush Family And Their Cronies Pay No Taxes Ever Bill”.
Twisted Martini @ 16
I am ready to purchase a bag of marbles and send each dem member of congress a couple of marbles with the attached note:
since you seem to be missing your intestinal fortitude, here’s a pair.
These Democratic hold-outs must, will last for less time than the last bitter Republican hold-outs. Soon all opposition to the war will be swept aside, and all previous frames scrapped, in an across- the- political- board revulsion driven by the never-ending stream of blood and tears from Iraq.
The Dems will be woken up by the protests of their constituents (particularly those up for reelection soon); the Repubs out of desperation that their party is on the brink of total extinction.
I have to believe this…
————————————————————————
‘PupMap (610 pins), Chat, Calendar, Timeline
Alfred Kelgarries @ 14
Now, if some fine upstanding European country would just arrest this AG war criminal.
Hi Phoenix Woman,
If you are here and not head first into the document dump Brava brilliant post! What can we do when they pull this crap? Let’s do it.
lolo
Right on, Phoenix Woman!
VictorLaszlo @ 20
Democrats lack the discipline and party loyalty necessary to frame issues.
Holy Frak People!
MSNBC has started an online poll to ask “should bush be impeached?”
guess what?
88% say YES out of about 500,000 votes cast!
linky:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/…..impeached/
On C & L
I support the troops. That is… I want to bring them home and out of harm’s way.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 18
JUST as strong feelings as yours, bet-cha, & on same side.
slightly different strategerie on occasion.
possibly even less patience than you have at given point in time, heh
hate to slam tester. rather lean hard…
but sorely hope his learning curve sharpens precipitously(!)
Eureka Springs @ 24
and risk getting bombed by cheney? let les’ americaines deal with it!
Alfred Kelgarries @ 28
The link they gave was to the results. I can’t find the link to vote. Anyone?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 30
A.M.E.N.!!!
Tester and Baucus cave, and now Jimmy Carter says his comments about “Bush being worst ever foreign policy” were “careless”. Very disappointed that Carter didn’t stick to his guns. MSNBC was almost laughing at Carter. Sad.
When will our side ever learn?.
RevDeb @ 33
vote here:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10562904/
RevDeb @ 33
why am i drooling, suddenly?!
bld in the watr…. ;->
Denver = Seattle
Democrats. You can be strong on defense and strong on diplomacy and peace at the same time. This is not a difficult concept. The old ‘walking softly, but carry a big stick’ thingy.
a propos, just saw this at salon.com:
Badwater @ 27
Wasn’t it Roy Rogers, who said; ‘I don’t belong to any Organized Party…’!!! How prophetic….
Alfred Kelgarries @ 36
again I got the results. not the ballot. Kinda the way the Repigs stage elections.
Alfred Kelgarries @ 36
okay to vote, you scroll down this page until you find the “live vote” link (under related content):
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10561966/
punaise @ 40
Which part god damn it? The part that can’t admit gross mistakes?
tbsa @ 22
I was thinking you could just smack them in the head with the bag…
Oklahoma kiddo @ 30
That is how you truly support the troops!!! Speaking as a twenty-year Army Vet!!!
Jane Hamsher @ 8
Yup, this is what ticked Howie (and me) off about Chris Carney’s Hate Crimes vote. First, he lied to get our money. Second, he hasn’t answered any requests for return of said money. But, third, in his “just for you, Howie” statement, Carney echoed the rightwing talking points about the Hate Crimes Bill.
“Too many classes” and “separate constitutional classes” are rightwing talking points. Our team should never, ever use these terms, especially when defending a vote against the interests of those being addressed.
I’m willing to forgive a lot, but our own teammates’ using the other sides’ language against members of their own team? Not so much.
Which of these things do you “support”?
Breaking and entering Iraqi homes without permission.
Rousting Iraqis out of bed in the middle of the night.
Searching their homes without warrants and leaving a mess.
Arresting family members without a warrant based on probable cause.
Imprisoning such members without charges.
Interrogating such members using techniques approved by the President.
Bombing Iraqi residences because you think “terrorists” may be hiding there or using it for cover.
Firing into residential areas in which civilians may be hit because you are taking fire for the general area.
Building permanent bases in their country.
Occupying their homes and offices because it is convenient to do so.
****
What the hell do we think our people are doing there? What does “support the troops” mean? Funding the troops means supporting the list above. Is there some other meaning?
If we don’t want our troops doing these things, then order them not to and stop payin for it.
Hi, everyone! Everybody got all their zeds? I’m on dial-up and it’s verrrry slooooow tonight.
RevDeb @ 42
Me too. Mr. LS (on a Mac) got there right away (sitting right next to me). I’m stuck with the results (PC). WTF?
Phoenix Woman @ 49
PW, go vote to impeach bush. it’s in howie fineman’s column on msnbc if you can get the damn link to work…
LS @ 50
try this page, but it may be a frakkin cookie monster…:(:(
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10561966/
Jane Hamsher @ 8
You’re on fire today, Jane! Smokin’!
Scarecrow @ 48
I think the shrubbies and Alberto have done all the things on the first part of your list domestically already, as well as in Iraq. So yes, this is what they believe in.. the rethug vision of a boot stomping on a human face forever.
Scarecrow @ 48
Sounds like the way illegal immigrants are treated.
Bushco just upped the ante folks:
they’re bundling iran and congress into one “cage match grudge fest”:
linky
Phoenix Woman @ 53
Kickin’ ass, takin’ names.
Kobe told me to.
Alfred Kelgarries @ 52
I went there. This is crazy. I follow the link, and it takes me to the result. My computer has been insane all day. I got kicked off all day every 2 minutes, my keyboard wouldn’t work, all kinds of crazy stuff. It’s working well now…..I think… except for the vote thingy. I’m worried it won’t work on WEDNESDAY!!!!! Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
Alfred Kelgarries @ 52
I had to open it with Firefox and use the 10561966 link. Since I already had opened the results page earlier, the cookie was set. Does this make any sense to you?
Alfred Kelgarries @ 51
Aah, Alfred, been there, just done that, check out the link someone had posted up-thread for Mozilla’s FireFox, the only way to really check out the Lake, it’s clunky for C&L, and few other sites, but the only way to take a dip in the lake!!!
LS @ 58
it did this to me AFTER I voted. i suspect it is a cookie or a cache issue. do you know how to clear cookies/cache on IE? and if you have firefox (HIGHLY RECC’D!!!) it may let you get in and vote on the same URL (different cookies)
RE: the MSNBC poll; it’s tied to a Fineman article dated 12/2005. If you, like I, voted already during the last 18 months, you’ll get the results, and not another vote.
RevDeb @ 33
Go to C&L, their hot button says GO…
click that and you’re into the vote
Alfred Kelgarries @ 56
From what I’ve seen of this Administration, it is clear that they are going to make sure they finish off their goal of eliminating the “Axis of Evil” during their term in office….oh, excuse me, I meant to say their Endless term in office, with Endless war…. They are not fooling around.
RevDeb @ 59
yes. this is their way of trying to prevent “click fraud” by having one guy vote hundreds of times. seems perhaps they want this to be a real vote…this kind of cookie manipulation isn’t that easy to do, although they probably have a canned script or applet…still. odd.
My tinfoil hat is screaming…they got Tester and force fed him the strong kool aid…
TeddySanFran @ 62
18 MONTHS? oh that’s clever. (please then to ignore earlier pontification about said vote. going to enter nunnery now…)
Guys.
I was able to vote, at least I think I did, by using the Crooks&Liars link at #28.
I think you need to accept cookies also.
whether it counted or not, it felt good ;->
CTuttle @ 41
Will Rogers
Other Pat @ 5
Hello Other Pat,
Thank you for this. I’ve been wondering when we would realize that we need “snappier” retorts vs. “oh yeah, well, let me explain why you’re wrong…”
For example: “we wouldn’t have to play ‘gotcha’ if there wasn’t so much ‘gotcha’ to get!”
Then tick off all the sleezy things in bullet points.
Dems could learn some snappy-tom here at FDL I’m sure!
CTuttle @ 41
Actually that was Will Rogers, Oklahoma’s favorite son. But you were close. And I loved Roy and his wife Dale Rogers. ;0)
Fact is, I’ve had two encounters with Marines in the last two days. (And I almost never encounter them now. Last night, I met a 21 year old here at my house. He had a theory that all would be right with the Iraqis if they only drank alcohol.
Today, because my class had written letters to Marines in Iraq, we had a nice Staff Sergeant visit us. The kids were so excited and awed! He answered lots and lots of questions from the kids (and probably got some future recruits), but he totally loves the Marine Corps. It’s like family to these guys, which is good.
But I hate the war in Iraq.
Hi Scarecrow.
i left u a lil’ bit more message EPU’d at end of your earlier post. nobigdeal… ;->
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..ent-706986
njr @ 69
Oops, my bad!!! (blush)!!!
It’s disturbing that a staffer in one of their offices knows this is a false description of how the R-F bill will work, and yet the Senator still used reichwing talking points to defend his argument.
It’s the same when Richard Wolffe sez “Congress can’t do anything about Alberto Gonzales if he won’t quit and the President won’t fire him.” Everyone on the teevee nods, wisely, as if it’s true. John Dean’s been saying for months that impeachment of the civil officers was an excellent solution; why don’t our media and political leaders know that?
Because their paychecks depend on their not knowing it.
Hi, Adie — I’d already seen it and watched the video. Wonderful horse. That horse reigns.
Let’s see.
They “stuff” departments with cronies.
What’s to say they don’t “stuff” the elections with fake Dems?????
I wonder if I could get a nice Marine Staff Sergeant to visit me if I wrote letters to Marines in Iraq….
TeddySanFran @ 78
Teddy-don’t ask, don’t tell…
Phoenix Woman, I hope you will forgive this OT:
Hey pups -
If you like industrial chemicals in the food you give to family and pets, the USDA has a present for you.
Fish, rice, and protein (whey) filled with a whole slew of toxins will now be called “organic”.
As will a few dozen other edibles.
This only matters if you try to avoid eating poison.
Currently the “organic” standard gives us far safer food, with far fewer breast cancer/ learning disorder/ infertility causing chemicals.
Under the Bushies, USDA’s “organic standards” board is stuffed with lobbyists from Big Junk Food.
Big surpise.
This new organic “standard” stinks so bad that even the USDA only allowed seven days of comments.
Industrial Food and the USDA have worked on the loopholes for the last five years.
Tuesday, May 22 is the USDA’s deadline for comments.
5 PM Eastern.
Less than 19 hours.
To tell the USDA you oppose putting toxic gunk in your food, please click here.
To see an earlier rant, click here.
The Organic Consumers Association has the latest.
PS – Technically, chemical rice won’t be labelled “organic”.
Just the “organic” starch from the chemical rice.
Through the same magic the USDA uses to convert fish laden with pesticides, heavy metals and other industrial wastes into “organic” fish oil.
For a bunch of fundies, the Bush crowd sure loves them their Harry Potter.
TeddySanFran @ 78
Prolly.
CTuttle @ 41
That was WILL Rogers. Quite a difference.
More sound bites:
Iraq “war” = occupation (can we beat that one over and over again please?)
Bush trusted aide = crony
Abu = real estate specialist
anybody got any more?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 71
They were an incredible pair!!! They’ve had an indomitable presence within the national psyche!!! *g* Ooh, potential rally for my Cardiac Sox within the Evil Empire, Go, Luke Skywalker!!!!
I don’t know what has been posted in comments thus far but the rage caused me to have to post this as soon as I read main post.
Damn it! There is no such thing as “pulling the rug out” or “compromising the safety and security of the troops while their in harms way” by casting this vote.
If our goddamned Senators are so ignorant as to not know better than that…well…this is one hell of a mess we’re in. Idiots!
TeddySanFran @ 78
Tut, tut, Teddy, Don’t Ask, and certainly, Don’t Tell!!! (Snark!!!) *g*
do-si-do @ 70:
As one Democrat has already said: “Every tree we’ve barked up has had a cat in it.” The Bush Junta is so corrupt that you could replace all of its top members with people picked at random from San Quentin and they’d do a better job than Bush’s people have or could.
Scarecrow @ 76
nope. not gonna bend on that. cooperation’s the key, reining, but not reigning ;->
mine would do a lotta that stuff even with just a home-made “Indian” bridle – loop around jaw, rein on only one side of the neck, me riding bareback [HERS,
Login to Reply
PW, forgive my OT (computer problems continue, haven’t been here in awhile).
Has anyone seen REp. Tim Ryan’s (YOungstown OH, wasn’t he a BlueAmerica candidate?) blog? He’s trying to live on a food stamp budget for a week, even while traveling on Congressional business.
His description of his attempts to eat nutritiously, and the effects thereof, not to mention the comments of readers, is great.
Especially since the TSA confiscated 2 of his staples at the airport when he forgot they were in his bag. People have been posting recipes for polenta and corn meal mush (that was our Sat. night meal when I was little. If only we’d known it was exotic polenta), as all he has left is cornmeal.
Hope to get the ‘puter up to speed and be back soon.
Kitt @ 85
I feel your pain.
Can we just repeat over and over again:
“the only way to end occupation is to leave”?
and
“why do the president’s holdouts continue to delay?”
There is nothing, nothing for US or Iraqi citizens to gain by remaining. JMHO
AARGH!!! I THINK I’M PAYING FOR MY SINS!!! Bases loaded and stranded!!! AAARRRGHHH!!!
Great points, Phoenix woman. I don’t watch TV, but when I hear this stuff on the radio, I cringe and then yell at the moronic sen or congresspersom saying it, handing off another round to Rove and Bush.
Dammit, don’t they read the blogs!!!
CTuttle, I saw where you are in Hilo, I know it’s not Mayberry but if you are a leftie and antiwar maybe you know the Duerrs, Betsy and Bob? Just wondered.
Just thought, for all I know you ARE Betsy or Bob. the tubes are funny that way.
CTuttle @ 91
Let him who is without sin cast the first pitch
neurophius @ 82
Dually noted and rectified!!!
Are you all familiar with this analogy? As you read it, think of how Pres.Carter was insulted today and how Guillani smacked down Paul.
Somehow, the repubs have made it so that any criticism of Bush or American policy results in an avalanche of criticism. From both other repubs and the media. And did you notice that no one has come to President Carter’s defense? NO ONE
Kitt @ 85
Re: rage
great line from “Boomsday”
“In cyberspace, everyone can hear you scream.”
zennurse @ 91
I know I have seen or heard the Duerr name here, however, I’m terrible with Face-Name recognition, one or the other, seldom Both!!!
tejanarusa @ 89
Food Stamp Challenge
re: zennurse at 96
I didn’t mean to step on Kitt’s post, forgive me.
The middle part is mine.
I promise to get back into shape, here, I do, I used to be good at this circa Summer 06, folks, honest.
zennurse, welcome back – so good to see you here again
OT-But not really. At John Edwards’ website, they are offering to send you a free bumper sticker that says ‘Support the Troops. End the War”. If you donate $20, they will also send you a t-shirt with ’support….” on the front and ‘end the war’ on the back.
On Countdown, Jonathan Alter libelled the former President by saying “none of the other former Presidents” liked him. Now that his former best friend, Gerald Ford, has passed away, I guess the kewl kids (Bush & Clinton) have told Alter they don’t like Jimmy.
I plan on being harder on my party in the future. I’ve been way too polite for far too long as far as the Democrats are concerned. Don’t you think? ;0)
kirk murphy @ 92
All right , get your jollies at my expense, last chance for the Sox, top of the ninth with the heart of the order coming up with 4 runs needed, did I mention they’re the Cardiac Sox???
CTuttle @ 86
Don’t ask me, just go for it!
kirk — thanks for the organix link; signed
TeddySanFran @ 102
Johnathan Alter never left junior high school.
solai 95,
Sickeningly true. :(
zennurse @ 99
Hey Zen—take another look and let me know if it’s better now.
speaking of framing folks, i want you to look at this jpg of the response to the SUBPOENA sent along with today’s “crucify monica” doc dump.
Linky:
http://bp3.blogger.com/_M_OtwE…..-05-21.jpg
note that NOWHERE is “subpoena” used, nor “legitimate oversight” or “constitutional responsibility” in regard to leahy and conyers. Instead each reference uses the same talking point “congressional and media inquiries”. I’m not joking. read the whole bloody thing (and thanks NOLO for the work!) and you begin to see the utter arrogance of these folks. The SUBPOENA is treated as if it were a “media inquiry” for a photo op with abu gonz’s dog!
pardon me while i go throw up…
CTuttle @ 104
repeat after me…10 games in front…
solai @ 101
I have some white sticky paper, a white t-shirt, and a big fat sharpie.
solai @ 94
I have used this story often to describe churches and how and why they avoid change.
CTuttle, they live on Honolii Pali and do a bunch of stuff. Betsy is my stepsister and they have 5 kids, 17-31 years, I think. You could know them from anywhere. Just wondered about it; I know Hilo is a lovely place to be a liberal.
Time for nurses to sleep.
Keep up the good vibes and say hi to TRex for me, I never could stay up for that boy.
‘night folks, be sweet.
Loo Hoo. @ 104
Hey, Loo Hoo, What’s shakin’???
kirk murphy @ 100
Hi, kirk, nice to read you too, and thanks, everyone has been just so great to notice and send welcomes.
Mutant Poodle @ 110
Aah, all this talk of putting one’s foot on the throat… Any lead is surmountable down the stretch…
Sorry to go OT with a drive by, I have a call to action for any and all NJ PUPS.
This is about preserving open land, something I will be becoming more involved with locally in the coming months.
Contact info
Gov. Corzine
609-292-6000
jon.corzine@gov.state.nj.us
Assembly Speaker Roberts
856-742-7600
AsmRoberts@njleg.org
Please ask them to support passage of the Garden State Preservation Trust renewal bill (ACR 10) and let voters decide to renew the Trust this November.
You can also fax a letter to both the Governor and Speaker, by using NJ Audubon Society’s Get Active website: http://ga1.org.campaign/parks_renewal, but phone calls are more important.
Thanks!
The first time I read it, I thought it explained why workers don’t unionize.
CTuttle @ 104
CTuttle, sorry about that – was only intending to empathize.
For the enviro Sox, every loss is another clearcut :{
late edit:
Thanks TSF! Glad you told the USDA what for.
I love this quote from H.L. Mencken: “Congress consists of one third, more or less, scoundrels; two thirds, more or less, idiots; and three thirds, more or less, poltroons.” Sometimes you have to wonder which third your representative belongs to. . .
zennurse @ 113
Maybe from Hilo High functions, Hmmm… Honolii is a mere 4-5 miles north of me!!!
Montana; where the legislature is totally paid for by the mining and ranching companies. They recently sold their state to these interests, you can read about it.
what did we really expect from shit that would take money and then turn on the people that did? screw them. get real candidates next time and maybe. I don’t think we have seen a lot of wisdom promoting these jerks.
kirk murphy @ 119
Don’t mind me I’m only crying in my beer right now!!!
President Carter! Karl is doing his nasty best today on the former President.
It’s tornado time again here in the alley this evening. And since some here have gotten me to feelin’ sorta cowboy’ish tonight, (Roy Rogers) well… I’ll leave you with this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2q8-DeT3dQ
Evening Phoenix Woman and Firepups
Stockholm Syndrome – purrrfect ! enjoyed the Overton Windows as well
but it was especially heartening to go over to the Left in the West blog – to see democrats are talking with one another – buncha montanans sitting ’round the campfire – suspect regional blogs are growing in numbers, would be cool to see a national map
zennurse, indeed it is a genuine pleasure to see you back in the threads :)
you know, we might get some mileage out of this word: (from Wiktionary):
Noun
Singular poltroon Plural poltroons
An ignoble or arrant coward; a dastard; a craven; a mean-spirited wretch.
“Today, 48 Bush Poltroons showed their true nature in the Senate by…”
Loo Hoo. @ 72
What grade do you teach?
Dastard is a particularly useful word to use in polite company; most will do a double-take when it’s said.
TeddySanFran @ 129
try calling someone “recreant” and see if they realize they’be been mortally insulted…(too many years reading Tolkein, Dunsany, and Eddings…)
CTuttle @ 115
Hey, CTuttle!
sigh Stockholm syndrome is also an apt description of how progressives, or people who believe that maybe America does not have the right/duty to rule the whole world by armed intimidation, are captured by the Democratic Party and are unable to even think themselves free.
see http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.com/
for some unexamined framing … it’s not just the right-ards who could benefit from a little hard, honest introspection sometimes.
Alfred Kelgarries @ 127
Yes, “poltroon” is a great word. And all 48 would have to look it up just to find out they were insulted.
GabrielOak @ 133
well, it would be a better use of their time that what they do with it NOW…
5th, lolo. And boy do I pound in the three branches of government!
Sluggard is a good word too.
“Damn the Sluggards” is a purported quote from a maligned freedom fighter in Texas, when the reinforcements he requested never came, so he couldn’t fight the fight….he got the blame.
I thought, for sure, Balrog would show up tonight.
solai @ 137
you know about the arrival of wee-rog, right?
LS @ 136
I vote for ninnyhammer…
solai @ 137
Balrog is probably catching up on sleep. Has it ever occurred to anyone that most of this nation is asleep for hours, and hours – all at the same time? I always thought that was the strangest thing.
lolo@127, ((lolo)), uh-oh, there goes all possible hope of a Zed tonite!!! :( LooHoo, the camaraderie is intense and life-long, I regularly talk to buds I’ve served with throughout my experiences!!! Stateside, Germany, Korea, etc…
Loo Hoo. @ 135
I had my 6th graders read the Constitution and went in depth on habeas corpus earlier this year. I said I was doing my part to contribute to an informed electorate and help their reading comprehension skills all at the same time.
…or, if you’re feeling somewhat obscene, wanksplash…
Alfred Kelgarries @ 130
Webster: “Dastard” — a mean, skulking coward. (Gosh, I didn’t know we had a dastard for a Vice-President.) “Recreant” — adj. crying for mercy, hence, cowardly, craven. n. A traitor. (AGAG?)
Alfred Kelgarries @ 129
How about Miscreant??? Tolkein and Heinlein!!! :-)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 125
Stay safe, OK Kiddo!
As for Carter: 1) the same folks tsk-tsking Jimmy are the ones who cheered when Reagan and Bush the First attacked Clinton hammer and tongs shortly after he was sworn in, and 2) the latest online polls I’ve seen show that most folks back Carter on this.
Mutant Poodle @ 139
numnuts?
solai @ 136
Probably prepping for the 2 AM Feedings… *g*
GabrielOak @ 144
i was actually using the “traitor” part, specifically used for knights that failed in their duty due to cowardice. i apply it to all the top people of the bush crime family as well as their sycophants in congress. OTOH, i am a curmudgeon!
OK Kiddo! Stay safe!!
LS @ 149
Amen to that! One town, is one town too many already!!!
David Sirota from workingassets.com would apparently be called a troll if he posted here.
Stockholm Syndrome can maybe be applied closer to home…
Here’s another place to vote on Carter/Bush.
Here’s a fun one if you haven’t seen it. The Simpsons vs. the Media:
http://thinkprogress.org/
Scroll down just a bit.
Phoenix Woman @ 145
PW, We all know Shrub is the ‘Worst’ Prez ever, however, Carter is the best ‘Ex-Prez’ ever, Nobel Peace Prize, Carter Center, Habitat for Humanity… Unfortunately, He was to Moralistic for the Beltway!!! :(
bg @ 153
Carter wins by a landslide according to the poll.
kirk murphy @ 80
Hey, thanks for that promo regarding public comments to the USDA on organic standards.
Just came back from leaving a comment myself. Our household depends on “organic” meaning just that, with a higher-than-average incidence of cancer, chemical sensitivities and two growing kids in the household. Why should I pay a couple bucks more a gallon for “organic” milk if it ends up containing the same stuff as the regular milk — and makes us sick, too? We need to be able to guarantee getting truly organic products.
What really frosts my chaps is the one-week period for public commentary — that’s got to be in violation of some regulation somewhere. I resent that BigAg companies got much longer to comment; if that isn’t fascism, I don’t know what is.
This is a drive-by. Just got home, catching up on threads from this afternoon and tonight.
Thought some of you would like to know-
On Charlie Rose tonight on PBS
David Halberstam, Arthur Schlesinger Jr. and Molly Ivins are remembered.
LS @ 156
60-40 on most things – 68-32 on who rates higher on improving America’s image abroad…
Mutant Poodle @ 159
Unfortunately, Shrub’s poll average is 55%, and Carter’s was dismal!!!
Late Nite is up
sporkovat @ 132
spork, you do understand the power of a cohesive voting block, yes? and the need for party discipline to check the opposition? How about strategic voting?
I think it’s time that some folks took a little time-out and applied some hard, honest introspection, too, but about what worked for the Republican Party for the last 12 years. Dems can’t seem to hold it together for more than a vote at any time, and that chronically undermines our ability to check the opposition and realize real oversight.
I also think it’s time some folks actually READ the legislation; the legislation in question did not “pull the rug out from under the troops”. Perhaps the persons in question could think themselves free if they actually took the time to READ first instead of reflexively shooting off their mouths.
Thanks, Rayne!
watching Big Junk devouring our last protection against toxic food is revolting.
As are we.
Together, we’ll tip the scales against Big Junk.
Blowback
Late Nite
CTuttle @ 160
Bush hasn’t been above 40% in ages as far as I have seen. I do, however, have to admit being really scared when Carter was President in regard to foreign affairs at the time. However, I was never afraid of losing the fundamental structure of the country the way I fear for it now. I am more frightened by the prospects of the future of the nation than I am about threats from abroad.
Hi Al,
Alfred Kelgarries @ 28
This is exciting news! OT but I went to MSNBC site looking for the poll results and the link to vote, and I found THIS instead!!
“Internet pioneer to oversee its redesign”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18790184/
Two excerpts:
The National Science Foundation announced Monday that BBN Technologies Inc. will get up to $10 million over four years to oversee the planning and design of the Global Environment for Network Innovations, or GENI.
(That sounds great! A genie! Get it? And I just love any name which has both “global” and “environment” in it—that’s gotta be something that’s going to help us! “Innovations” too! wow. Pretty exciting!)
Many researchers want to rethink the Internet’s underlying architecture, saying a “clean-slate” approach is the only way to truly address security, mobility and other challenges that have cropped up since the Internet’s birth in 1969.
I can just imagine some of those “challenges” that have cropped up—like internet grassroots activism. Yessirree, got to get that under control.
Thanks so much to everyone for this great site. Usually I’m playing catch-up so I haven’t been too good about replying to people’s comments before the thread closes. But I’ll try to do better.
Cassandra @ 166
Ugh. Not good. Same folks that brought you the first one will bring you the second one — and wait, they have lots of experience working for DARPA!!
There are days I think that half the Democrats in Congress couldn’t find their cojones with both hands and a flashlight.
I’m also wondering how the GOoPers managed to build that invisible soundwall at the Beltway: it mutes noise from outside, and amplifies noise from inside it. And Congress doesn’t notice that it’s there at all.
Rayne @ 167
No, it’s not good at all. We’re going to have to fight that. And I doubt we’ll be able to stop it.
“Read the polls”
OK
“One proposal would provide additional funds for U.S. troops in Iraq and would require the U.S. to start withdrawing all its troops from Iraq by a specific date. Would you favor or oppose this bill?”
.
Favor Oppose Unsure
% % %
5/4-6/07
57 41 2
.
“Some proposals would provide additional funds for troops in Iraq and set benchmarks that the Iraqi government must meet to show that progress is being made in Iraq, but would not set a date for troop withdrawal. Would you favor or oppose this bill?”
.
Favor Oppose Unsure
% % %
5/4-6/07
61 36 3
.
“One proposal would not provide additional funds for U.S. troops in Iraq and would require the U.S. to withdraw all its troops by March 2008. Would you favor or oppose that bill?”
.
Favor Oppose Unsure
% % %
5/4-6/07
39 60 2
.
“If you had to choose just one of the three proposals I just read, which ONE would you MOST like to see become law? A bill that would provide additional funds for Iraq that would set a specific date to start withdrawing troops. A bill that would provide additional funds for Iraq that would set benchmarks for the Iraqi government but not set a specific timetable for troop withdrawal. A bill that would not provide additional funds for Iraq and would require all troops to be withdrawn by March.”
.
Funds,
Specific Date Funds,
Benchmarks No Funds,
March
Withdrawal Unsure
% % % %
5/4-6/07
33 40 24 3
.
“As you may know, Congress passed a bill in 2002 that gave President Bush the authority to conduct military actions in Iraq. Would you favor or oppose a bill that would revoke that bill and would require Bush to seek new authorization from Congress to continue the war in Iraq?”
.
Favor Oppose Unsure
% % %
5/4-6/07
50 47 2
.
“Do you consider the war in Iraq to be part of the war on terrorism which began on September 11, 2001, or do you consider it to be an entirely separate military action?”
.
Part Of Entirely
Separate Unsure
% % %
5/4-6/07
43 54 3
1/19-21/07
40 57 4
8/30 – 9/2/06
45 53 1
.
“Who do you think should be primarily responsible for setting U.S. policy in Iraq: Congress or the President?”
.
Congress President Both
Equally (vol.) Neither (vol.) Unsure
% % % % %
5/4-6/07
47 36 14 2 1
3/9-11/07
47 33 14 2 3
.
“Do you think President Bush strongly supports, only moderately supports, or does not support the U.S. troops currently stationed in Iraq?”
.
Strongly
Supports Moderately
Supports Does Not
Support Unsure
% % % %
5/4-6/07
57 26 15 2
.
“Do you think the Democrats in Congress strongly support, only moderately support, or do not support the U.S. troops currently stationed in Iraq?”
.
Strongly
Supports Moderately
Supports Does Not
Support Unsure
% % % %
5/4-6/07
31 42 25 3
.
“Who do you think is MORE responsible for the fact that the U.S. troops currently in Iraq have not yet received additional funds: President Bush, because he vetoed the Iraq funding bill passed by Congress, OR, the Democrats in Congress, because they passed an Iraq funding bill that they knew Bush would veto?”
.
President
Bush Democrats
In Congress Both (vol.) Neither (vol.) Unsure
% % % % %
5/4-6/07
34 44 14 4 4
.
“Do you think that the U.S. war in Iraq is lost, or don’t you think so?”
.
Lost Don’t
Think So Unsure
% % %
5/4-6/07
41 55 4
——————————————————————————–
Rayne @ 162
Here’s what worked for the far-right religionists of the Republican party for the last 12 years – worked to drag the once mainstream country-club mainstreet GOP way way waaaay out into the fever swamps
the wingnuts dragged the GOP in their direction because they were motivated and unified and disciplined, but also because they were willing to sit elections out and not reflexively vote for the least worst, and therefore the GOP could not just take them for granted as the (D) party does.
And I wasn’t talking about legislation, I was just commenting on the Stockholm Syndrome part of Pheonix Woman’s post.
Not quite off topic: From Progressing Thinking
and follow-up on the US embassy in Iraq………..etc. etc.
Pentagon Making Preparations To Keep Tens Of Thousands Of Troops In Iraq For ‘Decades’
In testimony before the Senate Appropriations Committee this month, Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Peter Pace uttered a “carefully worded” statement revealing that the Pentagon had no plans to fully withdraw U.S. forces from Iraq if legislation passes Congress mandating troop redeployment:
PACE: Sir, we have published no orders directing the planning for the overall withdrawal of forces. We do have ongoing replacements of forces, and we do change the size of the force over time so that that system is available to either plus-up or draw down, but we have published no orders saying come up with a complete plan for total drawdown.
NPR investigated Pace’s statements and found one scenario being considered within the Pentagon would maintain a strong U.S. military presence in Iraq for several decades into the future.
This so-called “lily pad” strategy entails keeping a “series of military installations around Iraq,” with tens of thousands of U.S. troops remaining in the country for as long as a few decades:
[W]hat it essentially envisions is a series of military installations around Iraq, maybe five or six of them, a total of maybe 30-40 thousand U.S. troops in Iraq for a long period of time, lasting, maybe a few decades. And the idea is that these bases will be somewhat hermetically sealed, that U.S. military forces won’t be leaving them, they won’t be conducting presence patrols and the patrols they conduct now. Ground convoys won’t be driving into them.
Airplanes will be essentially landing in to deliver supplies and these sort of lily pads will be in various strategic areas in Iraq … And that will enable the U.S. military to maintain a presence in the country, perhaps…for a few decades.
The Pentagon’s goal with the lily pads is to preserve U.S. interests in Iraq for years to come “in the event that Congress or the administration pushes this [withdrawal plan] forward.” As NPR details, those interests are at least three-fold: 1) Training Iraq forces, 2) Preserving economic interests, as “Iraq obviously [sits] on the second largest reserve of oil in the world,” and 3) Providing a U.S. military “presence” to deter Iran and Turkey from “getting involved” after withdrawal.
While 60 percent of Americans are calling for a withdrawal of the U.S. from Iraq, the Pentagon is instead making preparations for an unending occupying presence.
Digg It!
___________
I don’t understand why the Democrats are tolerating this. Maybe because the folks who are benefiting from this gross rape of resources are paying for Dem campaigns too.
I don’t understand why the MSM isn’t shouting this story. I don’t understand why we as a nation are screaming bloody hell about this.
I’m getting very angry and puking disgusted again.
Badwater @ 27
I think we have several problems, but they’re we can overcome them. One, Liberals have been out of power so long they don’t see themselves as being Powerful or In Charge and they’re too comfortable standing outside the tent pissing in. Two, we have to separate our political fight with the Republican party and our internal arguments over policies and priorities. If we simply play on the same team — Democrats — to win elections and this fight with Bush & Co., then we’ll get to play the second round called governing.
Remember, winning is good.
CTuttle @ 160
You still believing MSM poll results?
How about MSM election results?
How about the New York Times?
Really? Hmmm
Why do I need to go to a bank in Sweden to download Firefox?
LS @ 165
What was it about the Carter era which left you feeling nervous?
rwcole @ 170
If these polls are to be believed, then they’re very troubling. What is the source?
If they’re correct:
Far too many people still think Iraq is somehow tied to 9/11 and they don’t realize it’s entirely lost (as it could never be won without a real enemy to defeat). Perhaps strangest though is that they feel foreign policy is to be decided by Congress. That is expressly an Executive Branch Duty as expressed in the Constitution (as I recall).
If the public is not informed it’s bad, but if they’re intentionally misinformed then we truly are in Orwellian territory and EastAsia has indeed always been at war with us.
We’ve got a lot of work to do to set this right.
Good time to remind us about the Overton window. How come the Dems aren’t using that strategy? They need to move some prominent voices into stronger opposition positions, even if other Dems don’t go along. That “moves the goalposts.”
Ok — you mention the use of “death tax” for “estate tax”. But you forgot that the “estate tax” term itself was just phase 1 of the reframing — the original term was “inheritance tax”.
Do you doubt this? If so, just look at the “inheritance tax” Community Chest card in a Monopoly game. Up until the Heritage Foundation began influencing national discourse in the early 1980s everyone called it “inheritance tax”.
As a term, “inheritance tax” really describes what it is. You inherit something, you pay tax on it, just like you would any other income. There is no pretense that you somehow have “earned” it — the term inheritance implies that just getting the money is a bit of good fortune.
The term “estate tax” is a euphemism that intentionally removes some of the meaning of the term “inheritance tax”. “Estate tax” doesn’t sound like you are getting taxed on additional income that you had the good fortune to receive — it sounds like the government is taxing your property. Yes, technically/legally the inheritance is referred to as an “estate”, but the use of this term in the common (as opposed to legal) language makes the “inheritance tax” sound like another form of “property tax”.
You see, you couldn’t just jump from “inheritance tax” to “death tax” — most people would see right through that. You have to first take the personal aspect out of “inheritance tax” by calling it “estate tax”. THEN, after a few years, you can reintroduce the personal aspect in a wholly different form with “death tax”.
The term “Death tax” adds more confusion to the reality of the inheritance tax. It sounds like poor Joe is so overtaxed that he even has to pay when he dies. Nevermind that if Joe donates his fortune to charity no tax will be paid — the tax only applies on receipt of the income by an individual or for-profit group. Nevermind that Joe won’t care if he’s dead. The purpose is to make the tax sound unfair.
The absurdity of the situation is captured in the following example: Mary works for 20 years building a business she sells for $20 million. George spends the same 20 years using his father’s connections to skip military obligations and generally do nothing but booze and snort cocaine, but he inherits $20 million at the same time Mary sells her business. Under the Republican’s plan, which one pays no tax?
Beats me. The Carter thing was awful, just awful. On bad days I think that J. Edgar is still alive, that there’s a neat little file on every progressive politician, and that when they step too far out of line they get a phone call from their “reminder”.
But that would be paranoid, wouldn’t it.
Didn’t take Tester long to turn. Or is he a Rahm lucky find?
Heraclitus @ 180
I’m with you, Heraclitus. If it’s not dirt on them personally, it’s some family member with an embarrassing secret or vulnerability. It all goes in the file.
The “reminder” comes in the form of a manila envelope and a smiling visitor (lobbyist) who says “We wouldn’t want you to get hurt by this, Congressman, and we’ll make sure it doesn’t ever get out. We’ll fight for your re-election. We just need your help on occasion with some of our issues. That’s only fair.”
And each official so approached probably thinks he’s the only one.