
It's that time of the year when graduates' thoughts turn to jobs, relationships, grad school, relationships, jobs, student loan payments, relationships, the "real world," and jobs. It's also that time when commencement speakers try not to make fools of themselves.
Enter Newt Gingrich at Liberty University yesterday (text of his prepared remarks here — thanks, TSF!):
In a speech heavy with religious allusions but devoid of hints about his presidential ambitions, Gingrich drew applause from the graduates and their families in the school's 12,000-seat football stadium when he demanded: "This anti-religious bias must end."
"In hostility to American history, the radical secularists insist that religious belief is inherently divisive," Gingrich said, deriding what he called the "contorted logic" and "false principles" of advocates of secularism in American society.
"Basic fairness demands that religious beliefs deserve a chance to be heard," he said during his 26-minute speech. "It is wrong to single out those who believe in God for discrimination. Yet, today, it is impossible to miss the discrimination against religious believers."
Discrimination? I must have missed all those stories of people getting refused service in restaraunts because they are Christian, or all the stories of religious folks getting shuffled around by realtors, because "your people" don't buy houses in this neighborhood.
Have I had my religious beliefs challenged? Absolutely — including around here — and I'm the better for it, thank you very much. But discrimination against Christians? Not so much — not even in the SF Bay Area.
On the other hand, there are other commencement speakers with a religious bent, like the late Fred Rogers. He was better known as "Mr. Rogers," and was an ordained Presbyterian minister who taught preschoolers (and their parents) the basic values of acceptance, unconditional love, and delight in the world via Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood. In 2002, he was the Dartmouth commencement speaker:
Our world hangs like a magnificent jewel in the vastness of space. Every one of us is a part of that jewel. A facet of that jewel. And in the perspective of infinity, our differences are infinitesimal. We are intimately related. May we never even pretend that we are not. Have you heard my favorite story that came from the Seattle Special Olympics? Well, for the 100-yard dash there were nine contestants, all of them so-called physically or mentally disabled. All nine of them assembled at the starting line and at the sound of the gun, they took off. But not long afterward one little boy stumbled and fell and hurt his knee and began to cry. The other eight children heard him crying; they slowed down, turned around and ran back to him. Every one of them ran back to him. One little girl with Down Syndrome bent down and kissed the boy and said, "This'll make it better." And the little boy got up and he the rest of the runners linked their arms together and joyfully walked to the finish line. They all finished the race at the same time. And when they did, everyone in that stadium stood up and clapped and whistled and cheered for a long, long, time. People who were there are still telling the story with great delight. And you know why. Because deep down, we know that what matters in this life is more than winning for ourselves. What really matters is helping others win too. Even if it means slowing down and changing our course now and then. . . .
I'm very much interested in choices and what it is and who it is that enable us human beings to make the choices we make all through our lives. What choices lead to ethnic cleansing? What choices lead to healing? What choices lead to the destruction of the environment? The erosion of the Sabbath? Suicide bombings or teenagers shooting teachers? What choices encourage heroism in the midst of chaos?
I have a lot of framed things in my office which people have given to me through the years and on my walls are Greek, and Hebrew, and Russian, and Chinese, and beside my chair is a French sentence from Saint-Exupery's The Little Prince. It reads, "L'essential…l'invisibles pour les yeux." What is essential is invisible to the eye.
Well, what is essential about you? And who are those who have helped you become the person that you are? Anyone who has ever graduated from a college, anyone who has ever been able to sustain a good work, has had at least one person and often many who have believed in him or her. We just don't get to be competent human beings without a lot of different investments from others.
I can just hear the sputtering from the right: "What? Slowing down when you're ahead? Changing course? Helping others win, too? It takes a village? Didn't anyone ever tell Mr. Rogers about pulling on your own bootstraps?"
Another great commencement address was delivered in 1996 at the Southampton Graduate Campus of Long Island University by Kermit the Frog (Real Audio here):
You have dedicated yourselves to preserving the beauty that is all around us. While some might look out at this great ocean and just see a magnificent view, you and I know that this ocean — and every ecosystem — is home to an indefinable number of my fellow animals.
As you go out into the world, never lose sight of the fact that you are not just saving the environment, you are saving the homes and lives of so many of my relatives.
On behalf of frogs, fish, pigs, bears and all of the other species who are lower than you on the food chain, thank you for dedicating your lives to saving our world and our home. In the words of my cousin, Newt — no, not that Newt, this is another Newt — "We appreciate what you are doing more than you can even imagine."
To the wisdom of the Rev. Mr. Rogers and the compassion of Kermit the Frog, let me give a nod to the theological acumen of Stephen Colbert, speaking last year at Knox College:
I wanted to say something about the Umberto Eco quote that was used earlier from The Name of the Rose. That book fascinated me because in it these people are killed for trying to get out of this library a book about comedy, Aristotle’s Commentary on Comedy. And what’s interesting to me is one of the arguments they have in the book is that comedy is bad because nowhere in the New Testament does it say that Jesus laughed. It says Jesus wept, but never did he laugh.
But, I don’t think you actually have to say it for us to imagine Jesus laughing. In the famous episode where there’s a storm on the lake, and the fishermen are out there. And they see Jesus on the shore, and Jesus walks across the stormy waters to the boat. And St. Peter thinks, “I can do this. I can do this. He keeps telling us to have faith and we can do anything. I can do this.” So he steps out of the boat and he walks for—I don’t know, it doesn’t say—a few feet, without sinking into the waves. But then he looks down, and he sees how stormy the seas are. He loses his faith and he begins to sink. And Jesus hot-foots it over and pulls him from the waves and says, “Oh you of little faith.” I can’t imagine Jesus wasn’t suppressing a laugh. How hilarious must it have been to watch Peter—like Wile E. Coyote—take three steps on the water and then sink into the waves.
Mr. Rogers, Kermit, and Stephen Colbert provide a stark contrast to Newt. Newt's all about the fear, but religiously speaking, I'll take Mr. Rogers' love, Kermit's pleas to care for creation, and Stephen Colbert's divinely inspired humor any day.
Happy graduation season, all you graduates out there. Even — or especially! — those who graduated from Liberty U.
(h/t to Southampton Graduate College of Long Island University for the photo of Kermit the Frog, D.A.L.)




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first!
Second!
Let’s not get greedy, Cathy!
Where is everyone.
Hiya Peterr
Next time I graduate, I want Kermit to speak.
I’ve been looking for video or a transcript of Newt’s remarks at Liberty, but so far no luck. Universities often post these, but it sometimes takes a couple of days (or longer). If someone has a link to the full text of Newt’s address, give the link and I’ll update the post.
Speaking as a Radical New Age Herbalist, I have to agree with Newt…
http://freewayblogger.blogspot…..eedom.html
forward to anyone you think may have a dollar fifty and some guts…
cathy @ 4
Perhaps still downstairs in the book salon discussion. They’ll find their way here after a bit.
scarlet p. @ 7
That looks COOL!
scarlet p. @ 7
Somehow, I don’t think there were a lot of Radical New Age Herbalists in the crowd at Liberty. Newt was claiming discrimination against Christians like Falwell and his students.
From me to you, from the bottom of my heart Mr. President, Newtie, and the rest of you bottom feeding neocon Christian hypocrital perverts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHUaACSW5dg
SnarKassandra @ 5
Could be done, sorta, in a way. Virtually…
http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/kermit.html
Especially from Columbia.
Thanks Peterr! Just forwarded this to the relatives in GA.
For my college graduation, the speaker was supposed to be Reagan’s Secretary of State George Schultz. The night before commencement, Schultz called up the university president and cancelled out because of an international incident of some kind. The university was aware that this was a possibility when they scheduled him, so the university president had written a backup speech just in case.
I remember none of it.
Is this like the war on Christmas?
Nutty Newtie, Rudy the G, Mittie, and Freddy Thompson. Lawdy, Lawdy.
Newt’s entire career has been fashioned around “framing” the issues. In this case he makes a ridiculous statement about religious discrimination hoping for traction.
Previously, this lunacy would become an overnight talking point repeated endlessly and embellished in the RW radio spin machine. I don’t see that happening here.
IMO, his mojo has abandoned him just like he abandoned his second wife. Let that be OUR talking point. ;)
George Shultz left office on January 20, 1989 but continues to be a strategist for the Republican Party. He was an advisor for the George W. Bush 2000 Campaign, and senior member of the so-called “Vulcans,” a group of policy mentors for Bush which also included among its members Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz and Condoleezza Rice. One of his most senior advisors and confidants is former ambassador Charles Hill, who holds dual positions at the Hoover Institution and Yale University. Shultz has been called the father of the Bush Doctrine, because of his advocacy of Preventive war. He generally defends the neoconservatism of the Bush administration.
After leaving public office in 1989, Shultz surprised many of his fellow conservatives by becoming the first prominent Republican to call for the legalization of recreational drugs.
a few months ago i wrote a post about religion. this is what i said.
Interesting that Newt would give an un-Christian speech at a so called Christian university where hate of the country is taught.
The only God Newt Gingrich believes in is Newt Gingrich.
AMEN!
Cassie@19
It’s not the religion that people hate – it’s the hypocrisy of saying one thing and doing another.
It’s also this “I get to believe what I want to but you have to believe the way I do.” We all have a right to our own beliefs and these people have only harmed religion in their drive to force it on others.
AP – A relaxed President Bush welcomed NATO’s top diplomat to his ranch Sunday for talks to be dominated by the surging violence in Afghanistan.
Bush and first lady Laura Bush greeted Secretary-General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer and his wife, Jeannine, in late afternoon sunshine after the guests arrived by helicopter.
The president, in blue jeans and cowboy boots, then climbed in his extended-cab pickup truck and drove the couples down the road — men in the front seat, women in the back seat.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..pr_wh/bush
Oklahoma kiddo @ 24
Is that a problem?
Anti religious bias? I guess we will have to rearrange the arguments in the ballot pamphlet. (Do they prepare those in other states besides California?): Prop. X, Argument in Favor, Argument Against, and God’s Argument.
Oh yes, and separate FEMA lines at the next disaster: Aid for Christians, Aid for Heathens, and Aid (if any is left over) for Atheists.
They liked and still like Ronald Reagan. Maybe Newt has some kind of a James Cagney appeal (to lonely shut-ins?). I wouldn’t write him off.
I think a lot of us here believe in the separation between gog & state. It is a private matter for me and one that I don’t feel I have to wear on my sleeve for all to see. Take our president (please!). He claims to be a deeply Christian man but yet, not only has he broken the laws of the constitution, but he has broken 8 out of ten commandments. His whole aqdministration claim to be god fearing men, but can anyone point me out anyone in his tight administration that have honored and loved others more than themselves? I think not. Good luck with that one!
SnarKassandra @ 19
If I may be so bold SnarKassandra, I think many folks here do not hate religion per se. We admire and support the religion practiced by folks like Peterr and RevDeb, even if we may not practice it ourselves as we recognize that the religion they practice is in line with the teachings of the gentle Jesus. What we abhor and hate is the pseudo religion practiced by the hate mongers like Falwell, gingrich, Dobson, and Robertson. There is a world of difference between the two arenas believe me.
At Liberty and Regent, they get what they pay for, I guess. At my university, we stopped hiring famous people to speak and began inviting our own alumnae to speak instead. They’ve been inspiring and come from many backgrounds as well as from many career paths. None of it has been b.s. politics from conservatives or right wing idealogues.
ccmask @ 27
Which 8? Or which 2 didn’t he break?
I knew someone was going to ask that Cassie!
dakine01 @ 28
If I may be so bold SnarKassandra, I think many folks here do not hate religion per se. We admire and support the religion practiced by folks like Peterr and RevDeb, even if we may not practice it ourselves as we recognize that the religion they practice is in line with the teachings of the gentle Jesus. What we abhor and hate is the pseudo religion practiced by the hate mongers like Falwell, gingrich, Dobson, and Robertson. There is a world of difference between the two arenas believe me.
I understand that and I think that is true for a lot of liberals but I get tired of hearing radio hosts refer to God as “invisible pet” and things like that. That doesn’t respect people’s real religion.
SnarKassandra @ 25
?
There has to be two in there somewhere….
1) I am the Lord thy god, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
2) Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.
3) Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
4) Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.
5) Honor thy father and thy mother.
6) Thou shalt not murder.
7) Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8) Thou shalt not steal.
9) Thou shalt not bear false witness against they neighbor.
10) Thou shalt not covet anything that belongs to thy neighbor.
Thank you Peterr for a much appreciated reminder of how best to approach the odious false whining from Newt and company, and for sharing those deeply essential thoughts from some genuine spirits of faith and clarity.
SnarkK @ 19
Part of the “why it’s hard” for liberals to have discussion about religion is that folks like Falwell, Dobson, and others have used religion as a weapon to oppress, put down, and beat up others.
Kind of makes it hard to open a discussion when things have been poisoned like that.
I think Bush needs to follow the Beatitudes more than the Big Ten.
Fred Rogers is one of my personal heros. I’ve read that commencement address before–it’s wonderful.
A while ago I posted the transcript of Rogers’ testimony in senate hearings in 1969. He was there to persuade people not to cut funding for public television.
ccmask @ 34
I dunno but it seems to me the chimp’s 10 for 10. Maybe no adultery but I wouldn’t make book on that.
Let’s see. There are multiple churches in communities and cities throughout the United States, Christian schools, Christian universities, Christian radio stations, Christian television networks, Christian book publishers, Christian bookstores, Christian magazines, and a Christian music industry. Churches don’t have to pay taxes. And we give a tax deduction for contributions to churches.
Some discrimination. What a dick.
You know, dakine01, I was going to give him #4, but he called Carter irrelevant today.
Religion, Bush style, I am given to understand, played a part in the invasion of Iraq.
ccmask @ 41
What about #7?
I’ve been lax on pursuing a university or college education. So i’m one of those ’some college’ people. But oddly enough. My high school graduation commencement speaker was Ross Perot, back in 1995. I remember quite a bit of it, but he was actually quite good. For all that he was a rabble rouser, he encouraged the lot of us to take hold of life and do what we believe we can, including helping others.
A simple, important lesson. Obviously Newt GetRich isn’t part of that school of thought either. Just get mine now, and forget thinking of others along the way.
Has anyone heard of “secularists” storming churches, or synagogues, or mosques, or whatever, ringing the religious structure and keeping religious believers out?
No, I didn’t think anyone had.
And yet, I’ve heard of women’s health centers being bombed, people being murdered and fanatical religious fools trying to block women from accessing the services these centers provide.
I’m not fooled. Newt is a twit. A dangerous twit.
Our blessed democracy is under constant assault by some very evil people, both from the inside and abroad. The “inside” attackers on our liberties are the hardcore, ultra-orthodox, evangelical ?Christians?, while the overseas schemers out to destroy any and all liberal democracies are the al Qaeda, who are also hardcore, ultra-orthodox, evangelical types.
We all know what al Qaeda is capable of doing, but it is the “inside” traitors who are subverting our very democratic institutions that are the greater threat.
These corrupt and evil “insiders” have perverted the U.S. Supreme Court, the Justice Department, and one federal agency after another, in pursuit of their nefarious, totalitarian religious plans for our freedom-loving society.
Hell, they’re even attempting to subvert “rebellious” Rock-N-Roll by sneaking their Christian cult rock music, with it’s evangelical-inspired lyrics, onto our nation’s radio airwaves…to proselytize listeners… without the listener ever realizing that some nefarious religious types are trying to brain-wash them through repetitive evangelical song lyrics…essentially making our entire nation a Battle Cry concert…or at least, this is the hope of the evil religious “insiders,” one of whom passed away last week.
Sorry, I just had to get that last part off my chest.
I don’t believe that U.S. citizens, and especially the young, realize how much in danger our liberal democracy really is.
A conspiracy, even larger than al Qaeda’s, has been unleashed on our society, in an attempt to subvert and sabotage everything a freedom-loving U.S. citizen holds dear. And the linchpin of this evil conspiracy from within is the tearing down of the wall separating church and state. Of course, in looking over at Iraq, we all know how well that works.
SnarKassandra @ 43
As Jimmy Carter pointed out long ago (about himself), Jesus said that “if you look at a woman with lust in your heart, you’ve committed adultery.”
SnarKassandra @ 30
Well, we don’t know of any adultery…
EPU’d from the Snark thread (sorry, just catching up):
TheOtherWA @ 42, quoting US News said:
Well, yes, maybe, kinda. *Except*!!! I just poked around on the net and found this FAQ on the Senate’s website:
I’ve emailed Harry Reid about this, but someone else who actually has a Nevada address might want to mention it as well (depends on how good his mail filters are). Unlike Reid, who’s focussing on August, I’m mostly concerned with a recess appointment for Gonzales over the upcoming recess. (Pretty sure it’s the end of this week.)
Jesus blessed lambhood of god died so onward christian soldiers crushing the whore of Babylon in her kitchen with her kids hanging onto her ragged skirts screaming and crying one trigger finger in the air pointing to heaven winning a playoff game for God
but the nonbelievers will persecute you and tell you otherwise
Jimmy Carter was the last honest president to live in the WH.
Maybe not Bush @ #7 Cassie, AFAWK,but people in his administration have.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 50
I don;t know anything about him except that he made peace between Israel and Egypt and now he builds houses for poor people.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 50
And Roger that.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 50
Perhaps “most recent”? The word “last” makes it sound as if it will never happen again, and I’d rather not rule out the possibility.
SnarKassandra @ 52
You know two things about him, and both are praiseworthy.
What has Bush done in public life that is praiseworthy?
This is a good reason to doubt Bush when he claims Jimmy Carter is “increasingly irrelevant.”
dakine01 @ 28
There are those of us Christians who are out there trying to work for peace and reconciliation without being on the talk shows. Working on the love your enemy part, tho I fear I am one war behind.
In any case we are working to honor life, to save as many little lives as possible, and to reconcile enemies. And by enemies I don’t just mean the US and the former USSR, but also Russia v the former republics; Finland Estonia and Russia in a meeting one week ago; Russia and Gruzia/Soviet Georgia; the government of an Asian -stan versus its opponents who are speaking with guns, and so on.
Hope there will be others to pick up the reins after I can do no more. The more I feel compelled to become involved to help save our nation, the less I am able to do this peacemaking work overseas. A dreadful choice.
SnarKassandra @ 52
He was TOO good and honest which helped pave the way for Ray-guns to be elected.
The only US Servicemen who died in anger during the Carter admin were 8 who died in the Iranian desert trying to effect a rescue of the hostages so even then they died trying to do good things.
Peterr @ 54
you’re assuming Bush plans on leaving the White House in 2009 ;)
ccmask @ 27
Great post Peterr, may the people of faith rise up and take their religions away from the fundamentalists.
ccmask, which are the two commandments that Bush has not broken yet?
updated: I see that cassie the great has alread asked this … on to read the rest before commenting … *g*
been itching to say this for a while, it’s off topic and I waited, I really waited as long as I could stand it;
speculatio is flying fast and furious that republicans want abu torture out, that he will indeed resign
I’ve been saying this isn’t possible because anyone they can confirm will be looking at the programs and preferring charges against them for their depravity
well, maybe there is one person who WILL win confirmation but will indeed allow the president to go on and on, who will say the programs ARE legal and will say the democrats are harming national security
that person is;
you guessed it, joe liarman
democrats need to gather all they can about and be ready with the reasons liarman will not be confirmed
the corporate spin machine is going to be going after any democrat that insinuates liarman is not a good candidate
But you see, “Christians” are discriminated against in this country. Their religion demands that they decide how I live. When I don’t live that way, I am discriminating against their religion, doncha know.
They are so put upon.
Or how about when secularists object to their setting up a religious test for employment: only Christians (refined to Republican Christians) need apply. What? We won’t let them do that? Again! religious discrimination against them. It happens all the time.
Up is down, freedom is slavery, and whatnot.
egregious @ 56
Some of us may not say anything very often egregious but please know that your efforts and sacrifices are noticed and appreciated.
Now it’s the “War on Christians.”
The rightwing persecution complex knows no bounds.
perris @ 60
You know, that is just sick enough to be true.
It seems like we have about 20 talking heads and about 20 talk radio hosts and all of their invited guests, who spend 24/7 trying to convince the rest of the planet that the dems are bad and the Gop & god are good.
SnarKassandra @ 19
Maybe it’s not quite this simple, Cassie. I’ve been a taskforce member working on Spirituality and Values for Progressive Democrats of America; we’ve had protracted conversations about this issue.
I believe the reason why we liberals and progressives have such a difficult time talking about religion is that we believe religion to be as personal as our healthcare decisions. (i.e., I’m not likely to discuss what happens in my doctor’s office with anyone; it’s private, it’s intimate.) We are uncomfortable with proselytizing and religious absolutism because we believe that our right to religious freedom ends where another’s begins — rather like cigarette smoke. It’s not at all that we are irreligious or disrespectful of religion; we are fervently against any organized process that forces religion of any kind on others because it trods on basic, fundamental rights enshrined in the Constitution.
And many folks are angry, FURIOUS at the systematic intrusion on their rights to simple be what they are, religious or otherwise, because it goes completely against what the founding fathers fought for. If one is pushing their religion, no matter how heartfelt or sincere, on someone else without invitation, it is a violation of their right to practice their own believe system. If someone is using publicly-owned airwaves to do this, it’s yet another offense as it uses a commons for promotion of a single perspective.
Personally, my faith in higher power(s) is intensely personal; the manner in which I educate my children about faith and spirit is as well. If I wanted more help on the subject, I would seek out a church, temple, outlet of my choice for this purpose; I reject having it forced upon me or my family by way of resources that belong to all of us.
Can you tell what religion I am or am not by this position?
Should it matter in a tolerant and democratic society that claims religious freedom as a standard?
Speaker Pelosi delivered the commencement address at Webster University in St Louis on May 12, 2007. Excerpt:
snip
ccmask @ 41
What about Schiavo? That was on a Sunday, IIRC.
perris @ 60
Actually, it’s not so off topic, when you think of Joe’s “short ride” comments. In some ways, he speaks out of the same fear that Newt does.
That makes a LOT of sense.
Okay everyone. You caught me lying on the Sabbath. I was trying to give Dear Leader a couple of points but I totally agree.
But look at that #1–out of the house of bondage. Is that why so many Republicans are into bondage? I guess they are religious.
Newt’s address, as prepared for delivery, is at newt.org
TSF — linky, please?
I’ve got a friend on the staff at Webster U . . . got to see what she thought of Nancy. She identifies as either a conservative Dem or a liberal GOPer, depending on the day, so she should have an interesting perspective.
Peterr @ 54
How about the most honest president ’since 1981′? And may I add I voted for this man twice. And am proud of that. And it is my position that Mr. Carter walks the talk of the New Testament”. ;0)
Jane Hamsher @ 64
I’m laying odds
don’t forget, according to ct rules I believe the person that appoints his replacement is a republican
this is win win win for bush, cheney, rove
dakine01 @ 53
Think about asking your local universities to bring Carter to speak about his latest book “Palestine Peace: Not Apartheid”.
This is a great book so honest so fair!
Mr. Rogers is a saint in my book. What an incredible inspiration for all of us!
Peterr @ 69
peterr, thanx for relieving my guilt, I owe you
I continue to support the Speaker.
SnarKassandra @ 52
I can tell you that President Carter has done much to restore democracy to third world countries, where other administrations and the CIA had installed dictators to stop the spread of communism. Carter has more respect and goodwill than any other person before and since, including Mother Teresa … and that’s saying something.
Jane Hamsher @ 64
This is terrfying. Is this another reason why Bill Kristol was so excited by the AG scandal. Take McNulty and Gonzales out and put Liarman in. Really frightening!
They can bring up Katrina at that Lie-berman hearing.
Peterr @ 54
I would agree with the good Reverend, we could see Edwards and/or Gore in the White House yet.
Wondering what nickname W gives someone with a name of Jaap de Hoop
It’s not religious discrimination if people simply resist being forced to live their lives to suit a particular religion. I come from the land of the snake handlers and the Pentecostals. I have no problems with them or the Baptists, Catholics or any other religion in the world.
Just don’t expect me to kowtow to your ideas of ‘right living’ and then cry or worse yet, elect an ideologue to mandate it through laws that support religious ideals that discriminate against me.
Here’s an idea that we should put into law: “Love thy neighbor as thyself” I’d support that one.
SnarKassandra @ 70
Not that it makes it acceptable all the time or easier to digest or understand…the next time you hear someone poking fun at Religion A ask yourself if they are angry at the religion in question, or that the organization behind Religion A has become so obvious and in their face that they have no other way to push it back but snark.
Because pushing back by drawing a very firm line and saying NO TRESPASSING generally doesn’t work in this country; it creates a pointed conflict where Religion A will accuse the line drawers of intolerance.
Frustrating, yes? So fun-making, mockery and snark it is.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 74
I also proudly voted for him twice. I was in USAF stationed in Hawaii in ‘80 and there WERE a few other Carter voters around but we were a definite minority.
Maybe just the threat of Lieberman will quiet down the house & senate.
Denny’s and Cracker Barrel have open arms for Newt’s friends, but probably not Kermits.
dakine—thank you.
TeddySanFran @ 83
You KNOW it has to Jabba the Hut…
egregious @ 56
Keep up the faith, egregious … even the darkest night has a dawn. Gandhi kept the faith and defeated violence and tyranny with peace and love.
TeddySanFran @ 83
I wonder if they had ice cream for desert, dear leader called him a hoopiescoop?
Thanks for the link to Newt’s remarks. A fast first read tells me they are about as bad as I feared.
Falwell’s funeral is Tuesday, and I shudder to think about what will be said.
Looking down the road, I see two houses of God in this community of 350 people. Going over to our local market town I see another five houses of worship. I do not see any buildings or congregations devoted to secularism or atheism. I don’t see how this squares with Mr. Gingrich’s vision of persecuted Christianinty
egregious @ 89
I’m always thankful and appreciative of those who walk the walk in their everyday lives.
ccmask @ 87
Dems would confirm Liarman in a heartbeat. Would Liarman want to be unemployed in two years? Doubtful, but if he thinks there is a big payday at the end of it and he will lose his ability to hold the Dems hostage if Collins, etc. lose their seats, he might.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 78
That would be Nancy, not Newt, right?
;)
Jane Hamsher @ 96
he believes the republicans can win the highest office next election, he beleives he can be a part of that election too
if he wants to run in o8 as vp or president, ag is a great step up that ladder
HoJoe for AG? I thought Colbert would be funny. That’s ROTFL-Puking funny!
Sinking ship…berths available.
but a lose, lose for Liebushman – give up 5 years of Senate Chairmanship to become the next Richard Kleindeinst ?!?!?
the other Dems no longer allow him to sit with them at lunch, but surely he has some sense of their oversight agenda
Kathleen @ 80
I just can’t believe that LIEberman would give up five more years in the Senate for 18 months as AG and then be history. Rell would appoint someone who wowuld then be in the driver’s seat for ‘12. And if there were some back room deal to get him back in the seat, I don’t believe the Dems would roll over for him like that.
I’m delurking again to say that most people on this site seem spiritual and religious but that doesn’t mean that they don’t believe in separation of church and state. BUT for Newt, my former congressman, to say that religious people are under fire for their beliefs is a lie and that needs to be pointed out.
President Bush to speak about Peace at Harvard’s commencement http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~y…..pril_Snow/
Jane Hamsher @ 96
And if Joe moves to the Executive Branch, the Dems, while presumably losing Joe’s seat to an official republican, would gain a real chair for the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee. That might be an interesting trade . . .
Peterr @ 73
here ya go, P
The religious right loves to feel persecuted and slick Gingrich knows it. In fact the whole nutty right wing loves to feel persecuted- fed ta the lions by liberals. It is- of course- all total bullshit.
cbl @ 100
joe believes he has a shot at president or vice president
he indeed has dillusions of granduer, if he really thinks he can run he takes the positition in my ipinion
Kathleen @ 103
Not a joke?
perris @ 98
If he runs for Preznit or VP, it will be on the third party line as the redubyacans won’t want him either.
dakine01 @ 109
I know some wingnuts, they LOVE
JPL @ 102
The fundamentalists in every religion, including mine are of the same opinion … that unless you cooperate 100% with their interpretation of the scriptures and live your life subservient to their rules, you should be destroyed.
xperris @ 110
oops, on an old computer and can’t edit
I was saying every wingnut I know LOVES liarman
Can’t imagine that ANY senator would give up a seat to join the final 18 months of hell in the good ol Clusterfuck administration. Doesn’t make any sense.
The next President similarly will have two appointments immediately (replacing Stevens and Souter), and there also is a very substantial prospect that a Democrat would quickly be in a position to appoint a third (replacing Ginsburg). In fact, if a Democrat wins, there will be something of a race for the exits.
Josh-tpm
The protest at Brigham Young against Cheney speaking at the commencement was encouraging
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04…..mp;emc=rss
Indeed, Peterr…It’s an annual time for some to start thinking beyond their current situation, and toward putting their talents to gainful use.
;>)
Petrocelli @ 111
Do Jewish fundamentalists think that way too?
agreed Perris
your points about a step up ring true
again, am guilty of premature ejoeculation
rwcole @ 106
and it has been working quite well for them. it’s a deliberate tactic.
SnarKassandra @ 117
… in every religion …
Dem members, presumably listed in order of seniority, are Levin, Akaka, Carper, Pryor, Landrieu, Obama, McCaskill, and Tester.
Levin won’t give up Armed Services to chair this one, so it might be Akaka. Is he likely to be tough on BushCo?
perris @ 112
But at the national levels, a truth is that the turncoat/party changer does NOT get invited onto the national ticket, no matter how much some folks may LURVES them.
Regarding Mr. Carter, my lingering memory is that he simply did not invade Nicaragua when many would have him do so. The entire history of the United States would indicate that he would do so. He would have continued as Prez, inspite of the unfair Mr. Rogersing of him, had he not been sucker-punched by the hostage deal made by Reagan, and his moles in intel. At least that’s the story I remember.
“The liberals banned prayer in schools- they’re persecutin believers!!! The liberals wanna teach our kids howta fuck in school- forcin our kids ta join the godless heathens in sexual promiscuity”
This is how the persecution thing gets goin.
I agree that Lieberman giving up his seat for the final spins around the drain does not seem likely. He’d have nothing but a ton of dissatisfied USA’s, one mess after another, with likely more turmoil ahead. If he stays in the senate, he can just be a sanctimonious prick in the sides of democrats for a whole lot longer. Why would he take the risk of being in the last throes of the Bush DOJ? His chances of vp are next to nil.
darkblack @ 116
Dammit darkblack, I almost ruined a new Mac twice today … first wolfie and now this … *g*
rwcole @ 113
Actually, if RGJoe takes the job, I’m pretty sure BushCo plans to cancel the ‘08 election.
Dana @ 125
Unless he & wifey can be blackmailed.
jc_fromOR–that’s exactly the story I remember about Carter too.
ccmask @ 128
I’ve always felt that Joe’s erratic political behavior could be the result of Rovian blackmail.
Christianists have developed a mythology about how they are a poor downtrodden and discriminated minority. You can hear it every Sunday if you can stomach it. There are all kinds of urban, and rural, legends that they pass around to each other. These legends reinforce their belief in their second class status. They mirror the beliefs of the Sunni’s in Iraq, who also believe they are a persecuted minority. Both populations suffer from borderline personality disorder if you ask me.
The cult of victimhood is very much part of the way these people (fundies of all religions) see themselves in today’s world… a powerful unifying element in their belief systems, and how they assert their identity. The secular humanists are out to get them, the Jewish-dominated liberal media, etc etc, and therefore they need to be militant.. to be God’s army, waging war against the progressives, technologists, globalizers, heathens, atheists etc. Some fundies choose to wage war against their perceived oppressors by using their political clout to elect despots and trash our constitution. Others just throw bombs. Same difference.
To cite an old source, Benjamin Barber’s “Jihad versus McWorld” gives what I believe to be the best analysis of the theocon mindset and it’s sources. http://www.amazon.com/Jihad-Vs…..amp;sr=8-1
Don’t think that any liberal has yet tied a snakehandler to the bumber of a pickup truck and dragged him for twenty miles or so- but they holler like they been drug fifty.
I can’t imagine Lieberman would want the job. I’ll go further. If Lieberman takes this job then something’s fishy.
I’ve always thought that Rove has two methods of controlling people. He either buys them, or blackmails them. Judging by his behavior, I’d say Lieberman’s been bought. He probably actually thinks they’re his friends since they handed him the election. But, if he takes the AG job, then he has moved into the blackmail category. Sorta like the undertaker getting the call from Don Corleone.
Dana @ 129
I’m too young to know what exactly happened to Carter, sadly. At 29, i was basically barely self aware around the time of hostage crisis, since i was born in 1977. But what i’ve grown up seeing and hearing about him? He’s the last of the old world diplomats in the united states. What we could have been, instead of what we’ve been stuck with now. That alone saddens me, becuase i respect the old world as much as i revel in the new. I like delving into the past, or i’d not be here at the Lake. Being educated about things that i had no clue about.
I never voted for the Shrub, something that slimey never should have been in the WH. Then again, the man set off all my bullshit detectors from the get go.
Kermit for grad speaker…….now *that’s* divine inspiration! Of the more than 20 speeches I had to sit thru in 30-plus years in higher ed, the big green frog would have been memorable.
Just wait until we start purging en masse these radical extremist cells from the Federal bureaucracy they’ve managed to infiltrate over the last few years.. then they’ll really start howling.. to the wind.
Rayne @ 66,
I wonder if the people loudly talking about religion are the same people quietly giving time or money to food pantries.
I’m not sure when this “talking about religion” became the such a great thing.
Peterr @ 104
Quite…Someone who might take a degree of interest in reasons for the stall mode Lieberman performed on that committee regarding ‘Katrina’ events for his paymasters, perhaps?
Cancel the 2008 elections? On what pretext? On what excuse?
Jay @ 130
If you remember during his last election campain Lieberman put up some really scary ads. Ads that seemed to me to display some strange relationship with or attitude about children. They were sickly sweet with the main figure, presumably holy Joe, identifing with children. I’m guessing that would fertile ground to go looking for blackmail material.
aliasofwestgate @ 135
I’ve said many times that to me one of the primary differences between Carter and Ray-guns was the Carter tried to force us to live up to our professed ideals while Ray-guns made people feel OK about their hates and prejudices.
Great commencement post, Peterr.
solai @ 134
Oh I don’t know. I think the good senator from Connecticut is perfectly capable of selling out without one bit of encouragement from Rove et al. I think we may be giving that man too much credit to say that the shubbies need to actually expend effort to convince him to betray his party. He’s been grooming himself to play his present role all his career. He’s a free be for the shrubbies.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 140
None, that’s just fear talking. It won’t happen.
Margot @ 138
It seems for many of the fundies that the only thing necessary is to proclaim “I Believe” loudly and often; that the profession is all that matters and that actual Christian acts are not necessary.
dakine01 @ 142
That about says it: Mourning in America.
Some people feared the 06 midterms would be cancelled. If ever there’d be a shit storm in this country, it would be the cancellation of a presidential election. I don’t buy into the fear of Martial Law either.
These asshats are going out or down, one direction or the other.
solai @ 134
And Mel Sembler has the receipt
;>)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 140
“Because I said so” -George W. Bush
Dana @ 148
The atmosphere of paranoia brought on by the MSM doesn’t exactly help matters. I don’t think they’ll be cancelled either, but i’ll be watching results like a hawk.
Dana @ 148
FWIW I agree. If we didn’t cancel national Presidential elections in 1864 or 1944 with the horrific wars facing us at those times, then the so-called GWOT is no reason to do so, no matter how much KKKarl may wish it to be so.
I don’t think the resulting revolution would be too peaceful either.
Petrocelli @ 120
I would beg to differ with you; Buddhist fundamentalism, for example, would advocate a complete avoidance of any conflict. (However there are those who argue Buddhism is philosophy and not a religion.)
Certainly there are other religions that would also advocate avoidance of conflict as part of their fundamental precepts. Quakers, Amish as part of the Christian tradition, for example.
dakine01 @ 146
They don’t give to shelters or food shelves. They tithe to their church. There is an insane mythology about that too. They believe that if they tithe a full 10 percent, no matter what, they be rich. Rich! It’s nonsense of course.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 140
On the same pretext and excuse W’s given for all his other unConstitutional activities in the face of terrrryzm: “I’m Preznit and I said so.”
TSF, I checked the dictionary first. See?
But it doesn’t say why commencement is a graduation when it really means a beginning. Anyone know?
TeddySanFran @ 155
I may be crazy for this, but I think 41 would rebel if 43 tried this nonsense…
Blub @ 132
I’ve always meant to read that – think I’ll pick it up. :)
Are you all confident that the 2008 elections will be fair?
I think the computer ate my comment. Mods?? Anyone?
I forced myself to watch/listen to the GOP debate on Fox last week, and was struck by how non-religious the answers were when the topics were Iraq, Iran, and budget priorities. Of course, all that changed when the questions came on abortion.
You’d think that with all those “good Christians” up there on stage, one of them would have remembered something about “blessed are the peacemakers” and Jesus’ words about caring for the poor, the needy, and those in prison. But no — we get cheerleaders for torture.
Seems I read somthing many years ago that Nixon had plans to declare martial law if necessary during the Vietnam War protests. Anyone ever hear the same thing? I’m a hard sell on this kind of stuff though.
SnarKassandra @ 156
Well, my WAG is because those graduating are “commencing” the next stage of their lifes, be it Kindergarten to grade school, HS to college, or college to real world.
SK — they are beginning the rest of their lives, which commences on that day. Thanks for that reminder — it’s a lovely token many speakers forget about.
Elliott @ 150
A dirty bomb, or several, would help provide the excuse. One conspiracy theory has it that those chumps that thought they were going to make an assault on Fort Dix were brought in not for plotting to do it, but for refusing to do what the FBI insider was trying to get them to do.
That’s one theory, I don’t believe it and you shouldn’t either, I’m just saying’….
Peterr @ 161
Peterr, as you well know, there were few Christians on that stage and many Xtianists.
SnarKassandra @ 160
Sometimes you have to do a hard refresh, rather than just clicking the refresh comment button.
TeddySanFran @ 166
I meant to put “good Christians” in quotes. Ooops.
solai @ 159
Not totally but a little more confident after ‘06. The key is to make the Dem victory so big that they CAN’T steal it.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 162
The Mitchell-Agnew Plan, the last-ditch trench in the warfare the GOP had planned for 1972. Lucky (?) for us all, their interference in the Democratic primary process worked as planned, as did their blackmail based on info obtained from Larry O’Brien’s Watergate office. Events broke entirely the GOP’s way, and Nixon won in a landslide.
Margot @ 138
Or in other words, “Faith without works is dead,” [James 2:20].
Or the Imam Ahmad: “I am a believer if Allah wills; My hope is that I am a believer, because a person cannot know how well he has performed his deeds according to what is required of him.”
In Buddhism, this is Right Action, Right Effort and Right Concentration as part of the Eight-Fold Path.
Twain @ 37
Or maybe the Beatles.
Christianism, as practiced by some on the extreme right, resembles a fetish more than it does a true religion.
I’ve got to go — it’s dinner time. Enjoy the evening, and buckle up for a wild pre-Memorial Day week.
In DC, it’s going to be “Take Out The Trash” day Monday through Friday.
solai @ 159
This is why I think we need to focus our investigatory attention on the rethug party.. expose their (many) misdeeds to the public eye and therefore cripple their ability to misbehave again in ‘08. If the FBI is kicking in their doors and impounding their computers, corporate donors… even Newt’s buddies… are hardly likely to be generous with their pocket books. And if the party can’t raise money to contest elections, they can hardly buy many ballot-box manipulations either. This is already happening (their annual banquet raised a mere $10 million this year, versus $38 million in the run-up to ‘04). We need to pile on the scrutiny, and then: Game. Set. Match.
Loo Hoo. @ 172
All you need is love, love.
noen @ 154,
Oh yes, I’ve got in-laws that believe that. It almost seems like they’d rather be in good with their church than help someone with buying groceries.
That sounds more like being able to pay the country club membership than tithing, but that’s their life, not mine.
I went through a really bad patch a while ago about this, just couldn’t understand it. Then I finally figured out that this gave these in-laws a feeling of security they may never have had before. They grew up poor. They had in this church a sense of belonging and a set of strict rules to follow (longish skirts and no pants for women, etc.)and the Methodist church just didn’t do it for them.
The impression here is the way to engineer a cancellation of the next elections would be as a result of a nuclear conflict (war). Using continuity as the reason.
Thanks, Peterr, for a thoughtful post and a provoking thread.
There has been a war on Baccalaureate, when I was a kid, lo those many years ago, we HAD to attend Baccalaureate, no diploma if we skipped.
Rayne @ 153
You mean like Sri Lanka?
Words are one thing, actions are quite another.
What TSF said, peterr.
meep!, it would have to be three business days, I would think. How long are they planning to be on recess?
Elliott @ 180
A? B? both?
Main Entry: baccalaureate
Pronunciation: “ba-k&-’lor-E-&t, -’lr-
Function: noun
Etymology: Medieval Latin baccalaureatus, from baccalaureus bachelor, alteration of baccalarius
1 : the degree of bachelor conferred by universities and colleges
2 a : a sermon to a graduating class b : the service at which this sermon is delivered
Remember when Jimmy Carter told us to “turn down our thermastats and put on a sweater”
Mr. Rogers and Jimmy like Cardigan sweaters.
http://www.americanrhetoric.co…..idence.htm
Oklahoma kiddo @ 178
Supposedly, Bush is required to have a plan that ensures for “continuity” after his term and supposedly, he hasn’t done so yet. I think he is just a lazy SOB, others have darker fears.
TeddySanFran @ 170
Bribery has been such an effective tool, maybe that’s why the Repubs want to keep gays in the closet. Can’t control someone who’s out and proud of it.
Kathleen @ 185
I am all for saving money and saving the planet but I do NOT wear sweaters. EVER. Sweatshirts or jackets, yes. Sweaters, no!
dakine01 @ 157
Don’t hold your breath … when the NRA’s head stated that he would never surrender his arms, even if ordered to do so by the President, Bush41 handed in his NRA membership but Dubya did nothing.
When the head of Bush43’s denomination proclaimed that he would direct all energies to converting Hindus from their evil, devil- worshipping ways, President Carter handed in his ‘membership card’ in protest and Dubya did nothing.
All of this was before Iraq, IIRC … Dubya has been consistent in his drive to subvert the Constitution, nothing would surprise me any more.
Snar-K: In my day, baccalaureate was the pre-commencement church service. Either the evening before or the Sunday before graduation day, if I recall right. And as Elliott says, attendance for us was NOT optional…
Cassie, it’s the service I was talking about.
noen @ 176
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLxTpsIVzzo
This is a must see documentary on Ohio’s 2004 election. “How Ohio pulled it off”
I think the title should of the film shold be “How Rove, Blackwell and the Repubs pulled it off in Ohio”
http://www.howohiopulleditoff.com/
In case anyone is missing me, I have a date with Tony Soprano right now.
SnarKassandra @ 188
No sweaters! but they’re so comfy. soft and stretchy, snug and warm!
Petrocelli @ 189
But that’s what I’m saying. Daddy BushCo has proven himself to occasionally be an honorable man, unlike chimpy and being an honorable man, he would have to finally respond to his son’s misdeeds.
Or I may well be an idiot after all.
A much bigger concern of mine (than shrub and the fundies somehow staging a coup) is the creeping coup they’ve been slowing carrying out, infiltrating like-minded people into the government and military. This is why I think that post-shrub we need to have a serious discussion about the nature of national service in our country. I think that we should reinstate a draft, as the primary means by which our soldiers are recruited, and that we should require young adults to work in other forms of government as well.. otherwise, we’re simply defaulting these roles to those most politically motivated to sign up for them, which means Newt’s ‘lil Millenialist soldiers.
Rayne –
this guy may be to the religious right what Perlstein is to the political right – has been writing about such since the mid 80’s – long before the current crop of deconstruction treatises on the subject – he may not have coined the term dominionist, but man has he fleshed it out
was also the first person I was aware of to trace Falwell and others racist pedigree
Frederick Clarkson – wiki
Dominionism – wiki
Petrocelli @ 181
Are we talking about the different sects within Sri Lankan Buddhism? or the ethnic conflict between primarily Buddhist Sri Lankans and Hindu Tamils? There’s an awful lot going on in Sri Lanka that isn’t about Buddhism’s fundament — the Four Noble Truths or the Eight-Fold Path.
Does anyone know about the exact deal that Paul “If they fuck with me or Shaha, I have enough on them to fuck them too” Wolfowitz blackmailed the World Bank for?
Does he have to pay taxes on any of his income from the World Bank?
Siun’s got a new thread upstairs.
SnarKassandra @ 117
Unfortunately, yes. If you’re speaking about certain groups. Most of us are pretty sane, and believe in the same God everyone else does. But then there are a few…..sigh….
cbl @ 198
Yeah, isn’t Clarkson great? I thoroughly enjoy his diaries at DailyKos.
How could you not love a guy who writes a diary entry, “Get Ready: We’re Blogswarming Your Ass, James Dobson.“
Kathleen @ 200
To be fair, I think negotiated severence is pretty common for this type of role, unless he is dismissed for cause.. a fate he managed to avoid. The bottom line, he doesn’t have to have anything on the bank. All he needs is for shrub to loudly protest over his unfair treatment.. nobody wants to pick an unnecessary fight with the 30,000 ton gorilla on the block (the US, which by custom picks the bank’s leader), so they make a deal. $400,000 is a reasonable amount for them to pay to be rid of this loser under the circumstances.
noen @ 165
They will find a pretext, even if they have to blow it up themselves……again.
Elliott @ 187
Nixon commissioned the Rand institute to do a study on the reaction of the American people if the next election was abolished. CBS news carried the story. I have a trick memory, and I know exactly what traffic light in Palo Alto I was sitting at when I heard that story.
If Bush has done so, if he cares, it’s probably classified.
At any rate, just as I don’t see why impeachment is off the table, I don’t see why people so blithly assume there is going to be an election. My bet is on martial law first.
Cassie, for some glimpses of Carter as prez and some delightful modern history, you might enjoy reading the biography of Helen Thomas.
Front Row at the White House: My Life and Times
By Helen Thomas
Newt Gingerich should be required to name one outspoken atheist/agnostic in the Congress, any Federal Courtship, or Executive Branch position. Then he needs to state how many others in those posts are NOT declared atheists/agnostics.
Then Mr. Gingerich needs to explain this claim that it is “Christians” that are being discriminated against.
One can’t get elected or appointed to major office if one is an atheist. If someone is an atheist or agnostic they have to keep it deeply hidden.
The chances of an open atheist being elected to office in the US is about that of a black being elected Senator in the Jim Crow South.
And it is because of people like Gingrich and his catering to those that fear that a single individual who is actually hired/elected for their competancy rather than by a “religious test” (expressly outlawed by the Constitution BTW) that his claim that Christians are discriminated against is absolutely absurd.
noen @ 131
Indeed…starting from the urban legend that kids can’t pray in school, or that schools can’t hold after school religious club meetings. But if they do the latter they have to grant access to all religions and SECULAR (i.e. atheist, Wiccan, gay, etc.) groups as well. The schools simply can’t favor one group over another. And kids who pray can’t do it in a manner that disrupts educational activity (so they can silently pray all they want before that killer math quiz).
Almost always schools in the South shut down their access policies ONLY when an atheist, gay, Muslim or Wiccan group of students asks for access. Of course the religious clubs simply wander down the road to their church….and play the “victim”.
Fundamentalist Christians are the biggest non-victim “victims” in the country, I’m afraid.
solai @ 159
I think we all need to be involved in the Nov. 2008 election itself. I had an interesting experience. It was the first time I’d ever been working with the Registrar, but I was freaked and just felt like I wanted to be involved to watch for funny business.
Sure enough, I prevented the people who had been in this particular precinct for many years from handing Independent Republican ballots directly to Independents. Turns out there’s a Democrat or Republican Independent ballot. Who’s a guessed?
What these pros I worked with did when an independent came in was to pick up and hand to the R ballot and point to the D ballot. Subtle, but effective.
Kathleen @ 200
one of wolfie’s critics had also had a relationship with a subordinate
I’m sorry I missed this thread, Peterr. I read about Newt’s speech over at TPM, and I thought Steve Benen gave it a good rebuttal, but I’m glad to see Christians speaking out on this. While being scapegoated for all of our society’s problems is quite an honor, I can’t help recalling that some religious minorities that were treated that way didn’t up so well.
SnarKassandra @ 32
This is rich. Non-believers don’t respect believers. Give me a break. Believers are all so coddled that they can’t even handle a few non-believers speaking up.
Sorry, but we non-believers deserve to have our voices heard too. Believers get plenty of platforms to air their side. Quite frankly, I’m sick of having to be silent more often than not. Imagine how that feels. Imagine having to bite your tongue over and over and OVER again, every single day of your life, so that you can keep a job, or maintain some semblance of civility when amongst “friends and family.” Just think about that last part–you can’t even state your beliefs around the people closest to you, lest it “upset” them or anger them. Imagine having people attack you whenever you do state your beliefs, even your own family. Or belittle you by saying things like, “Oh, you don’t really mean/think/believe that!” As if you don’t know your own mind.
Imagine having religion shoved in your face every single day of your life (”God bless you!” from a clerk at a store, prayers over a business lunch, etc.), against your will, and you can say nothing, do nothing, about it, because we non-believers must “respect” religious beliefs, while believers care fuck all about what we think.
I don’t hate religion, and I don’t hate believers. But count me among the Christ-weary, as the Rude Pundit calls us. This non-believer is tired of tiptoeing around believers. It seems like it’s not enough to let believers speak while we remain silent. Believers seem to want agreement, and, worse, adulation for their beliefs, too. It’s sickening.
So if we get snippy and sarcastic and make fun of religious belief, well, a lot of pent-up frustration and anger is seeping out, as in feeling like we CANNOT STAY SILENT ONE SECOND LONGER. And any believer who doesn’t like it when we state our beliefs, well, now he or she knows how it feels to be forced to endure what the other side thinks. Trust me, a few minutes of non-believer conmments on a radio station is a tiny percentage (try .0000000001%) of what non-believers endure, day-in, day-out.
LJ/Aquaria @ 213
You got it. And that’s why what Newt said — assuming he was sincere and not lying for advantage as usual — is really quite reasonable. If you
truly believe that you and your pals are right about ultimate things and everyone else is wrong, it’s natural to conclude that everyone else should defer to your judgment and do what you say. For someone to then say, “No thanks, I’ll make up my own mind,” feels like a frontal attack, not only on you but on the god who you believe you speak for.
If this is your mindset, then it is quite reasonable and logical to feel persecuted when the world politely declines to revolve around you. This is why they feel so hurt when challenged, since they’re being so reasonable and logical. But – pace Mr. Spock – “reasonable” and “logical” are not the same as “conforming to reality.” If your premises – the fundamentalist mindset – are batshit insane, so will your conclusions be.