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(Joanne Peyton of the International Campaign to Stop Honor Killings may be able to stop by and share more information with us in the comments. If she is not able to make the live discussion (she's in London) she will add information in comments tomorrow – please remember to come back and check on her update)
Over the past few days, there's been a burst of media coverage of the horrific 'honor killing' of Du’a Khalil Aswad, a young Yazidi woman in Iraq. The murder itself occured around April 7th and we had first discussed it a few weeks ago when an Amnesty International report was released.
As the media discovers this murder they are also using the killing as one more sign of the "evils of Islam." CNN International puts it this way :
The case portrays the tragedy and brutality of honor killings in the Muslim world.
While CNN is certainly right that this killing was brutal and a tragedy, they make a critical mistake – Du'a was a Yazidi woman. The Yazidi are not Muslim (nor Arab). In fact, the Yazidi are a rather closed tribal group, living mostly in Kurdistan and are often quite hostile to their Muslim neighbors (many Kurds are also quite hostile to them.) We do not honor her by ignoring the actual facts which led to her murder.
CNN also does not mention another fact. As Yifat Susskind, the communications director of MADRE, reminds us:
while the US saw fit to violate international law by eradicating most of Iraq's legal system, it maintained Article 130 of the penal code, which provides vastly reduced sentences for "honor killings" (as little as six months, as opposed to life imprisonment, which is the minimum sentence for murder).(iii)
Susskind then continues:
Despite the many ways that US policies have contributed to the increase in "honor killing" in Iraq, most people in the US continue to view these crimes as an invariable part of Iraqi, Arab, or Muslim "culture." For instance, US journalist Kay Hymowitz defines "honor killing" as part of the "inventory of brutality" committed by men against women in the "Muslim world," railing against "the savage fundamentalist Muslim oppression of women."(vi)
Hymowitz echoes a commonly held assumption, namely that gender-based violence in the Middle East derives from Islam. In fact, "honor killings" are not condoned by any Islamic texts, but are rooted in customary law that pre-dates Islam and Christianity. Identifying Islam or "Muslim culture" as the source of violence against women serves to dehumanize Muslims and justify violence against them. It also deflects attention from factors (such as politics, economics, and militarism) that influence the prevalence of gender-based violence, and obscures the ways that US actions have exacerbated conditions that give rise to violence against women.
In fact, culture alone explains very little. Like all human behavior, "honor killing" does have a cultural dimension, but like culture itself, "honor killing" is shaped by social factors such as poverty and women's status that change–and can be changed–in ways that can either help combat or promote "honor killing." For instance, poverty-inducing economic policies, such as the 2003 US decision to fire all public-sector workers in Iraq (40 percent of whom were women), have contributed to the rise in "honor killings." Increased poverty has made people more dependent on tribal structures for jobs, housing, and other scarce resources and compelled more women into polygamous, forced, and abusive marriages, where they are at greater risk of "honor killing."
The media's adoption of the tragedy of Du'a's death as an example of "Muslim" "traditions"– once again demonizing Islam (and hence another way of justifying the continued occupation) — is something that needs to be countered with accurate information.
Honor killings occur in many countries. The International Campaign against Honor Killing works to stop them, not only by providing accurate information on these tragedies but by taking action and working with groups like The Committee for the Defense of Iraqi Women's Rights and The Organization of Women's Freedom in Iraq.Joanne Peyton of the Campaign contacted me after our first discussion of the case and they could use our support. Please go to their site and consider supporting their work.
It's important to honor the memory of Du'a by working for women's rights and putting an end to 'honor killings.'
(The photo above is from the International Campaign against Honor Killing and is of a demonstration in Arbil/Hewler, capital of Iraqi-Kurdistan after the public stoning of Du'a Khalil Aswad.)
Related posts:
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Rana Husseini, Murder in the Name of Honor
- US Contractors Held in Iraqi Jail for Green Zone Murder
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Jurgen Todenhofer, Why Do You Kill?: The Untold Story of the Iraqi Resistance
- Right-Wingers: “Political Correctness” to Blame for Ft. Hood Shootings
- David Brooks Courageously Embraces War Against Islam





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Zed and Read!
Important story. I hope there is some good news somewhere next week? Like Gonzo gone…
Thanks, Siun. It is an important story and I’m really glad you’re covering it.
And thanks Joanne for all the important work you do. Welcome.
Siun!
Thanks for your work. You honor our memory of Du’a.
Does anyone know about the exact deal that Paul “If they fuck with me or Shaha, I have enough on them to fuck them too” Wolfowitz blackmailed the World Bank for?
Does he have to pay taxes on any of his income from the World Bank?
Since Joanne is in London, she may well join us via a set of comments at the end given the time difference – but I’ve been extemely interested in the work she and a number of women are doing around this issue.
The links to the Campaign as well as to the other organizations have really valuable info – and ways to help.
Hi Siun,
That is the same thing I wrote about this week. So horrible. One of the articles I read talked about it in the context of domestic violence and violence against women.
We as a nation are not that far removed from variants of the honor killings ourselves. Within my lifetime there have been the men acquited of murdering their wives for finding them in bed with another man and women who have served long prison terms for having killed their husbands after they’d been found in bed with another woman. ALL are symbols and reflections of the patriarchy, wherever and however it may manifest itself.
Hi Cassie:
I saw your post – and in fact left a comment.
It’s certainly an important issue and one we should talk about and try to help with.
Thanks for doing your post – it was very good indeed.
You might find the info on Joanne’s organization’s site helpful – and I found the photos of women *around the world* demonstrating on this very encouraging.
All of the ethnic cleansing and “honor killing” taking place in Iraq is a direct result of the pre-emptive invasion.
The tragedy that is taking place is the U.S.’s “Sabra and Shatilla”. Just a great deal more death and destruction. Just as the Israeli’s provided an enviroment for ethnic killing to take place in Lebanon, we have done the same in Iraq!
I may have missed it but “honor killings” is a terrible misnomer. Has someone shifted the language on this to something more unfortunately appropriate that certainly leaves the word “honor” out?
Since George Bush has been president what has been the common thread in world news? Death and killing.
Good post Siun.
To whomever knows about the technical things on the website, is there something that can be done about the news feed making Siun’s posts display in about 4 point text? It’s hard to read without a magnifying glass.
Jolly good this bit of news regarding our dear friends and relatives in the UK by way of the Scotsman…
h/t informed comment. Oh, to love Britain again!
dakine01 @ 8
The Bush administration (hello Mr. Wolfowitz) created the enviroment for all of these horrific killings to take place in Iraq! What a sick sick way to access control and power over a region.
The stink of death permeates the Bush regime.
Kathleen – I think we have to be careful about our analysis which is why I did this post. As Yifat from MADRE writes, there is an important connection between “honor killings” and the invasion … but “honor killings” were not unknown in Iraq before that – nor are they unknown in many other countries.
We need to look at what exacerbates the problem as well as protections for problems that come from ancient tribal issues, etc.
It makes my brain hurt that men, even twisted Falwell/Dobson-esque men, would harm a woman who was harmed by a man.
Just fucking insane!
And the smell of death is getting worse in Gaza. The IDF is preparing for a feeding frenzy.
Siun @ 17
Has the tragedy taking place in Iraq created and enviroment where these “honor killings” are on the rise?
I kid you not, if I didn’t have a degree in ‘Religious Studies’ I wouldn’t have known who the Yazidi (Yezidi) were/are either.
I’ll pass along this information to my theological, feminist, & other egroups.
Dakine – that’s a really important point. This is not an Iraq only issue nor is it totally removed from our own culture … look at the reported increases of young women in abusive dating relationships which tend to reflect some serious “honor” issues.
Kathleen @ 5
No.
Thanks Siun. I put the updated links and the petitions on both of my sites.
Hillary Clintons makeover on C-Span/ Monday
http://www.c-span.org/homepage…..iveDays=30
On the Diane Rehm show Monday “Private military contractors in Iraq”
http://www.wamu.org/programs/dr/07/05/21.php#13190
Thanks Wordsmith!
Heir of Patriots – we’re not seeing the same problem – could you refresh and check?
Kathleen – has the invasion and occupation made the problem worse in Iraq – absolutely, as Yasif reports in my the material I quoted in the post. But just as turning this case into a cause as CNN’s comment did does not help solve the problem, so only seeing the invasion factors obscures the bigger pictures.
Murder is murder. The whole Middle East is out of control. It was not thus, seven years ago.
Bil @ 11
Not to be snarky, but would “dishonor killings” accomplish the shift?
Cassie – that’s great! thanks!
Islamic Law has been made a tar-baby before.
This incident reminds me of the Saudi Royal family killing of the Princess from 25 years ago that was profiled by Frontline:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/…../princess/
The Saudis put it out that the killing was done according to Islamic Law, but Frontline’s investigation made it clear that the Princess was actually condemned and killed according to the Royal family’s Tribal Law.
Carter blast Blair
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/….._0519.html
Siun @ 22
As I said above, I believe it is a total reflection on the Patriarchy and using power to keep others down, especially and specifically women.
Does anyone want to present a view that President Hillary Clinton will bring peace to the Middle East?
She’s not going to have enough time…
Siun @ 29
The killers are already arrested. Are we petitioning them to not release them?
kirk murphy @ 28
Not for me. I guess that is part of the horror, you read the story and have to gag on what they do, AND what it is called.
radiofreewill – thanks for that link!
That’s a very important “correction” …
horror killings
Oklahoma kiddo @ 33
While no fan of Senator Clinton’s middle east policies I have to say that the tendency of any thread to devolve into Hillary Hatred is a bit abject.
Jane Hamsher @ 39
I think Hilary actually does a lot for women’s and kids’ causes and I think she’d do great with this one.
Jane Hamsher @ 39
I believe this to be a legitimate question. And as to “Hillary hatred” if you are referring to me, then you’re off base.
SnarKassandra @ 38
Cassie, I hate it but that works for me.
many believe this was retribution for her killing
Cassie – do your classmates or friends notice news like this? or discuss your post for example – I’d be interested in your – and their perspective.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 27
I disagree to this extent: I believe these types of killings were happening quite frequently, they just weren’t in our consciousness as they are now because we were not paying any attention to the lands where they occur most prevalently.
Siun @ 44
Yeah. This was on channel one at school and we talked about it in social studies. About what values are to be respected in a different culture and what are universal values that the different cultures should respect.
There is a UN declaration on the rights of children and a different one about women that are completely against this.
The reasons why the facts are screwed up in CNN’s meager coverage of this story are the same reasons that this so-called “honor killing” took place at all.
Political agendas have higher value than the lives of women. The facts as skewed are part of the agenda; the slackery about women’s rights are part of the agenda. The truth and the women in that truth are disposable assets on the altar of the neo-con political agenda.
Not unlike the truth of yellowcake sales and the political if virtual assassination of the NOC Valerie Plame’s career — expendable for political expediency’s sake, another form of “honor killing.”
Women have little value in their world except as vessels to bear future males, handmaidens to their needs like Monica Goodling, Susan Ralston, Pamela Palfrey, and wretchedly vicious water carriers like Ann Coulter, Michelle Malkin, Bay Buchanan. Women are merely means to an end.
One thing that is mentioned by the experts about this case is that it is unusual for one of these murders to be committed in broad daylight in public. It appears that is a change …
And some of the articles point to problems growing for women in Iraq during the sanctions – again, as poverty increases and women are forced into more precarious positions, these killing seem to increase.
Kathleen @ 5
Geeeezzzz…..got sidetracked by the CATS. That’s quite the clever name you assigned Herr Wolfowitz; a bit long, but it works for me!
No, he does NOT have to pay taxes on his income from the WB. I read that last week on Reuters. I’m trying to find a link because I hate not having that. I don’t care if G*d brings it to my attention, I want a link.
Ah! Although not the Reuters story, this mentions “the ludicrous World Bank privilege of tax-free status.”
As quoted in the article:
dakine01 @ 45
Actually I am speaking primarily of the 600,000 Iraqi and 4,000 U.S. Soldier deaths.
Siun @ 26
Siun, it’s always the same tiny unreadable text for your posts. The other posts are readable size. I’m talking about the news feed (click the XML link under syndication) in my newsreader not the post in the browser.
Rayne – wow, thanks!
I remember well that it was impossible to get help for Afghani women under the Taliban … until we had a reason to invade and suddenly Bush was very concerned.
Kathleen @ 5
EPU from this morning. Wolfie gets 400k a year TAX-FREE plus 400k severance. Possibly all World Bank US citizens PAY NO TAXES. At least two neo-con Wolfie cronies, Cleveland and Kellems were getting 250k. Riza is at the Foundation For The Future…Money for nothing and Riza for free…
Hey! Firedoglake is a grass-roots organization that supports the development of democracy.
Kathleen @ 15
I would disagree with you about the Bush administration’s culpability with regard to this specific case. The political and religious factors that culminated in this woman’s death were in place in the Middle East long before dreams of “Iraqi liberation” Bush came to power.
Comparisons to similar incidents within the United States are also miss the mark, and they only serve to divert our attention from where it needs to be. This woman was stoned and killed because she was seen walking with another man of another religion. I have not seen any credible evidence to contradict this account. Therefore, it is safe to say, that this woman died as the direct result of religious intolerance within her community. This type of intolerance, although not unique to the Islamic world as can be seen in this case, often finds welcome shelter there.
I would not so casually disregard religion’s role in this. Christians have their own history of oppressing and subjugating women and they have been very successful at justifying their actions through valid interpretations of holy scripture.
Heir – since we aren’t seeing the problem, it’s hard to know what’s causing it. Perhaps you could send me info offline (media dot firedoglake at gmail dot com) and we can take a further look.
Hi everyone…instead of “honor killing”, how about “image killing”?
Changing customs takes time. Female circumcision is a practice that I think is slowly coming to an end. Patriarchical beliefs seems to always make it “Eve’s” fault. Look at the control many in this country want over women’s bodies in the abortion debate. This is a control issue.
HeirofPatriots @ 51
FWIW, on Firefox with OSX, your post appears in a slightly larger font, Siun.
I thought it was a feature for the Lake’s demographics (and hence our visual acuity).
Siun I sent you mail, but to the address you left on my comment screen.
Micheal Scheuer Ex head of OBL CIA unit says Ron Paul right
http://www.antiwar.com/blog/20…..ron-paul//
Krispyos – interesting points. There were reports – and I do not have a link for this – of a rape by a Yazidi boy of a Sunni girl shortly before Du’a’s murder … and friends in Iraq report that the Yazidi – who have had difficult relations with surrounding peoples for a very long time (no one else is apparently “pure” enough) are under considerable pressure as what looks like ethnic cleansing is increasing in Kurdistan. It’s a very complex situation – esp to those of us in the West who have little knowledge of the region, various religions and cultures.
Kirk Murphy — It is that same thing about how water bends the light rays. The lake does that to Siun, so maybe she is made of light rays. :)
This is an odd place to post this, but this honor killing problem, like nearly every other major issue facing humanity right now has one prime cause: overpopulation.
Increased poverty has made people more dependent on tribal structures for jobs, housing, and other scarce resources and compelled more women into polygamous, forced, and abusive marriages, where they are at greater risk of “honor killing.”
This kind of thing is going on everywhere on the planet all the time. If there were a lot less people around, there would be more resources to go around and a lot of these issues would ease.
But they won’t. Population continues to increase at breakneck speed. We can (and should) be taking steps to suppress these events, but without effective population control it’s shoveling sh*t against the tide.
Wordsmith @ 49
IIRC from the 2000 IMF/WB protests, both of these international institutions enjoy tax free status in the host nation analagous to that conferred upon the UN in NYC (or Geneva).
PS – Cassie, you clearly know your optics!
IMO, the American variation of “honor killing” tends less to the religious and more toward the racial, in particular women being killed for having been participants in interracial relationships in the South. I have no specific data, just anecdotal memories from having grown up and lived a lot of my life in the South. Thoughts?
Sparhawk @ 63
But that might mean “birth control” ~~~ shudder shudder
dakine01 @ 45
No one would have heard word one of this without cell phone cameras.
Siun @ 52
Yeah, and we can lay some of the blame directly at the feet of the now-deceased Falwell. Thanks to the pressure of the Christian Coalition, Reagan had additional political impetus to support “Afghani freedom fighters” against the Soviets. Of course we now call them the Taliban. Bush, in theory, should have gone in to undo the damage of unintended consequences — but removing the Taliban and empowering women were of little political value to Bush, not as much as using the impetus of bin Laden in Afghanistan as a reason to launch a war in Iraq.
SnarKassandra @ 66
Horrible, isn’t it.
(Cassie – got it and will reply)
Siun @ 55
It may have something to do with heir’s browser’s rendering, as well as your method of drafting your posts, Siun.
I’m using Firefox, which doesn’t have a problem — but I can also see that your post has a lot of [font size=”2″] tags, the kind I might expect from certain word processing packages. Other posts here at FDL don’t have those same tags.
Sparhawk – there is a network of women working on this issue in Iraq. The Organization of Women’s Freedom in Iraq has safe houses for women who are threatened with ‘honor’ killings in fact and an “underground railroad” of sorts.
Siun @ 72
That is really good. Really important. How do women know how to find them? DO they have a hotline or something?
Siun @ 72
Good. I wonder if there’s somewhere I can donate. This issue totally pisses me off, perhaps even more than all the other random violence in Iraq. I mean, for crying out loud, being killed for dating the wrong person?
Sparhawk @ 74
I have not read anything about this young woman being romantically involved with the Sunni man she was supposedly seen with.
Sparhawk @ 74
Worse than Romeo and Juliet, but kinda sorta like West Side Story. (Read one, saw the other on video, had to write about them both.)
Cassie – I’ll ask Joanne to give us some information on that when she is able to add to comments.
And Sparhawk – take a look at the links at the end of the post, each of those organizations I’m sure could use your support.
(Rayne and Heir – I’ll look into it further and see what’s what)
Saudi Arabia is one of the Bush family’s biggest pals. What is their record on honor killings? Or for that matter on human rights in general? And is this information from Saudi Arabia even available, and if so, is the info. reliable?
Sparhawk, I share your concern about the power of human overpopulation to cause social catastrophe.
Unfortunately, the sum total of Iraqis killed or forced to emigrate under our Occupation has brought about net population decline in Iraq.
Sadly, the increased poverty in Occupied Iraq results from early deaths, rather than over-abundant births.
[Oh - one quick clarification. Your handle is but one letter off from the prominent author Starhawk (who lives here in SF).
Just to clarify, the views you’re sharing with us tonight are from you (not from Starhawk) - am I understanding correctly?]
SnarKassandra @ 76
Oh no, Romeo and Juliet was about right. I recommend you find a DVD of the Franco Zeferelli version from 1968 and you’ll see that there was a threat of violence to those who dallied outside their family’s dictates. Young women locked up permanently in nunneries, men killed in duels, all because they went against their father’s plans for genetic dispersion. (That’s what I think both tribal tradition and organized religion really do, support paternal control of genetic selection.)
Rayne says -
an inadequate dowry can still kill you, you can be assaulted as a means of family debt reduction, bartered to keep male relatives out of jail, and still be sold in to sexual slavery almost anywhere on the planet
I know folks are uncomfortable with the term but -
Yoko Ono said it succinctly 40 years ago
ACLU Sues School District Over BiblesIt’s ACLU’s 5th Time Suing District In
13 Years
POSTED: 1:21 pm EDT May 18, 2007
*NEW ORLEANS — *Should religious groups have access to public school
children?
The American Civil Liberties Union says no, and it has filed a lawsuit
against the Tangipahoa Public School District for allowing the distribution
of Bibles to students, WDSU-TV in New Orleans reported.
It is the fifth lawsuit in 13 years that the ACLU has filed against the
school system.
kirk murphy @ 79
Yes. my handle is a character from a book series by David Eddings.
I’m just a random guy passing through here from the east coast, not particularly famous or interesting :) I read FDL quite often, though I don’t post much (I post a lot more on Kos).
I like FDL because I think the signal to noise ratio is a little better here than on Kos (probably due to Kos’s sheer size). Commentary here is very insightful, particularly on things like the Libby trial, US attorneys, Plamegate, etc. Best coverage on the web.
And yes, views here are my own. (Although, maybe his too. You’d have to ask him).
Comparisons to Romeo and Juliet do not seem appropriate either. Does anyone have a link discussing a possible romantic back-story (maybe I missed it)? I can understand wanting to imagine such a connection, given the sheer irrationality of what occurred. If there is no credible evidence that she did anything more than appear with this man in public than I think we should refrain from introducing fiction into the conversation as it just muddies the waters.
Welcome Sparhawk – hope you’ll comment more often!
Siun @ 85
Why thank you Siun. I appreciate that.
Siun @ 85
Welcome welcome.
Dang, a dollar late. I left a comment at the end of the last thread and don’t know how to bring it up.
Krispyos – the reports I’ve seen describe the events in various ways – Amnesty’s report is as follows:
Loo Hoo. @ 88
can you copy and paste?
This is why people read FDL and others like it. The press cannot be trusted. They have been
intermediaries without knowledge, without expertise. They don’t ASK. They don’t check it out. And this is exactly why we need guys.
Welcome Sparhawk – I’m glad you commented today, and hope we see and read more of you here.
Hi Loo Hoo!
OKK -
about 2 years ago, Chimpigula was prepared to sign a UN Convention on the abolition of human trafficking – specifically women and children . . .until he saw both Kuwait and The Kingdom listed as two of the biggest offenders . . .how very Kristian of him
(silently sliding into the soothing waters of the Lake) G’evening, Siun. Another painful post – painful to write – painful to read – that needed to be written. Thank you.
Welcome Suzanne!
Hope the showing went well and the sale follows soon..
Suzanne @ 95
hiya suzanne!
Hi Suzanne-what, no impossibly acrobatic dive?
Oh well. Nice to see you.
kirk murphy @ 96
Why no swan dive?
Hi Suzanne …
I really appreciate everyone’s willingness to discuss this hard topic – and the quality of the discussion. I’ve sent Joanne a note, so check back tomorrow for comments from her and some answers to questions raised.
Loo Hoo. @ 88
Go back to other thread, left click in Comment Box, then go to your quote and click “Quote this Comment”. Go back to edit box, select everything there and ctrl-c.Then go back to this thread in Comment Box ctrl-v to paste text.
Of course there are likely to be other ways to do it.
Siun @ 89
Thank you for sharing another report. I saw a brief clip of the cellphone video so when I read the 30 minute part of the above, I felt like someone just punched me in the stomach. To think that madness could have gone on for 30 minutes…
I am exhausted from getting the house ready for the open house (it was today).
I’m flat out too tired to dive.
Krispyos @ 84
Um, I’m pretty sure if you follow links provided either in the post or by commenters in the thread you’ll see that the young female victim is alleged to have fallen in love with a young Muslim man in a nearby village. The family dragged her back for having abandoned both her religion and ethnic culture and stoned her.
You can take your pick about underlying reasons, any one or more:
– ancient tribal culture that embraces violence
– latent support of “honor killings” across middle eastern culture
But either of these could have been overcome by a strong, new legal system that effectively communicated support for women’s rights along with solid, swift and effective punishment of “honor killings” and similar violent threats to women and girls.
Suzanne @ 103
Did you sell your house?
Not yet, Cassie, had an open house held by my agent between 1 and 4 – it ran over until almost 5.
Suzanne — congrats on the open house, must have been a success if it ran over like that. Will keep my fingers crossed for a rapid sale at a price you can live with.
I was up until 3am putting all the final touches on the place. My little cottage by the creek in the redwoods sparkled like a jewel today. Lots of interest but – who knows when it will sell.
What just clicked for me – this stoning was a planned community activity, and will have reinforced the community’s sense of itself.
It doesn’t so much remind me of men who kill “their” women when the women are unfaithful, or thought to be unfaithful.
It reminds me more of a lynching in the pre-civil rights US south – especially considering the racial element in the story from Iraq.
Siun, did other women participate in the stoning or are only men allowed to do this?
cbl @ 94
Yeah, see how well their treatment of women gets when their oil production drops off a cliff.Fern @ 109
Yes, this is exactly what it reminded me of as well. I think this is a close parallel.
Suzanne @ 110
One of the articles I read said that the women approve of it.
Has anybody mentioned the similarity of this “planned community activity” to Shirley Jackson’s famous short story “The Lottery”?
Bil @ 11
umm, Bil, “honor” is not always a good word
• adherence to what is right or to a conventional standard of conduct
can be problematic
Honor kllings as a custom also seem to transcend religion, region, and culture, as can be seen in the treatment of women seen as disloyal by cultures at war: I would offer as evidence the treatment of French, Polish, and Russian women seen as consorting with the Germans by their respective societies during WW2, and the treatment of some Japanese women by some of their fellow Japanese for consorting with American serviceman during the post-war occupation. At its root, IMO, honor killings seem more a result of militarism than culture or religion, i.e., “We are at war with THEM and you are a traitor.”
Just a thought.
Too funny, Suzanne; I spent last Monday doing the same thing, spent 12-plus hours scrubbing with toothbrushes and Scott’s Liquid Gold, trying to prep my house for an open house for realtors only on Tuesday.
I had the good fortune to have a friend to help, indulged his OCD scrubbing along side me all day, poor guy. But it’s nerve-wracking, isn’t it, wondering what the prospective buyers will see that you might have missed? But it’s paying off, had the most viewings in the county this past week. Let’s wish for offers near to asking price.
Carter going wild with the truth
“”I think as far as the adverse impact on the nation around the world, this administration has been the worst in history,” Carter told the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette in a story that appeared in the newspaper’s Saturday editions. “The overt reversal of America’s basic values as expressed by previous administrations, including those of George H.W. Bush and Ronald Reagan and Richard Nixon and others, has been the most disturbing to me.” …
Rayne @ 116
My brother is OCD. Maybe we should rent him out. :)
I am signing off. Aunt Betsy wants the computer now. Like it’s her computer or something. Geez!
Suzanne – I don’t know. I believe the reports show that only men were involved in the actual stoning. The videos show a pretty large group of men though reports say about 13 men were involved in the physical stoning.
Fern – I think that’s an important analogy. From what I’ve heard, the Yazidi are being attacked by other Kurdish communities and they have long been “unpopular” amongst their neighbors.
I think the lynching analogy is pretty apt. Just like the lynchings in America, you see the same pathology of the crowd/mob mentality.
I would have hoped that humans would have sated their thirst for each others blood by now.
But heck, the self-proclaimed most powerful and advanced nation in the world is being run by a feeble minded nitwit who mocked a condemned woman.
I bet Alberto Gonzales smirked the entire 5 minutes that he reviewed Carla Faye Tucker’s file.
-GSD
I hear ya, Rayne, and I commiserate. Totally sucks doing it all by myself. I’ve been living here without leaving footprints, trying to be invisible to potential buyers. That is easier done by myself but not all preperation stuff. I wish you buyers who fall in love with your home.
Rayne @ 104
The original CNN account did not suggest a romantic element, although Siun quickly pointed me to one that did.
Although I agree with your last statement about how to overcome this type of violence, that is all very well easier said than done. There are what, approximately 150,000 American troops in Iraq as of right now compared to the approximately 25 million Iraqis. This is not a winning proposition for doing anything swiftly or effectively.
The funny thing is, if America withdraws from Iraq, I do not think laws protecting the rights of women, or the right to practice the religion of your choice are going to magically spring into place (ironically, the Iraqis may end up with less freedom than more). All I can see on the horizon are countless dark, and horrifying scenarios for life in Iraq. Its a very difficult problem.
CD @ 113
Funny, I was just thinking of that very story. The banality with which the townspeople prepared for and anticipated the ritual and their participation was the most gripping part of the story, horror incarnate.
I picture the same kind of normalcy if this is not discouraged; the yayas/tias/tantes/abuelas/mamos standing around in their shawls/babushkas/hijab clucking, making disparaging comments under their breath to grandchildren about the sordid mess and the need to clean up after others…a very old story, but one that must have an end.
Fern #109, I agree. Close parallels seem to exist between this case and cases based on racial bigotry in the South. A few years ago, a friend of mine required an armed guard at her wedding after receiving death threats from her father(and some of his friends)for daring to marry a man of whose race he disapproved. (to put it mildly).
Good nite, SnarKassandra!
GSD @ 120
And almost 50% of the country voted for him too. Tells you something (and not something good).
wiki
The MSM’s role is no longer to educate, enlighten and inform but rather to indoctrinate and propagandize. 7 figure salaried pundits, news readers and celebrity “journalists” are not members of a 4th Estate but members of a 5th Column whose goal is to hold on to power and priviledge and keep the “masses” divided, demoralized and dumbfouneded. They no longer serve as a bulwark to democracy but rather instruments of its subversion. They will always support the status quo, as long as it’s Republican.
Loo Hoo. @ 210
Hello RonD and everyone, and thanks Frank33.
GSD@120
“But heck, the self-proclaimed most powerful and advanced nation in the world is being run by a feeble minded nitwit”
Say what you will about Darth, but feeble minded he’s not.
Sparhawk @ 126
no- of the voters- which is a pretty low percent in ofitself, no?
Suzanne @ 103
A nice backfloat, Suzanne.
RonD @ 65
Sadly, some in the South still threaten horror killing as religious persecution.
Suffer the little ones to come unto me
Her crime against the good Christianists of Great Falls, South Carolina?
Darla took the city to Federal Court. She won.
And when the good Christianists lost in Federal Court and persecuted Darla – they ordered local law enforcement to deny her protection under the law.
Krispyos @ 122
That is the criminal part of this enterprise. The war was lost when we failed to adequately provide the troops necessary to do the job well, when we failed to plan ahead for rebuilding civic infrastructure, when we failed to ensure a handoff to Peacekeepers and a phase-out to Iraqi self-governance. The war was lost in the first 6 months.
Saddam merely delayed the inevitable conflict between these peoples as a strong arm, and we made no progress in mediating these decades- and centuries-old frictions. Staying is obviously not stopping any deaths, only ensuring that more people die at our hands rather than among their own peoples; is a woman killed because of her proximity to an American or as a bypasser in the wrong place any less dead than a woman killed by her own tribesman?
CD @ 113
A teacher showed us that story done as a movie in grammar school – it still gives me nightmares.
Siun, my friend agrees with Rayne your posts have a tag font size=”2″ that’s over-riding my newsreader settings.
New Thread
Kirk M #133
Un-freaking-believable. I had not heard of the case. Thanks for the info.
HeirofPatriots @ 135
Hey Siun, let me guess (you don’t need to confirm) that you are using Word as your editor. No problem, but what I suggest doing is taking an extra step. Cut the text from Word into a Notepad document, save as a .txt file. Then copy and paste from Notepad document into the Wordpress editor window. Add any links to the text by way of the link icon in Wordpress.
Moving the text to a .txt file will strip out all the extraneous tags without having to parse them by hand or by find-replace.
RonD – you are welcome.
I cry whenever I read this.
And I would never, ever live in the rural South or most of rural America. This is a deeply intolerant and violent nation.
Rayne – this post was composed in Wordpress … I never use Word for online writing, in fact write in the WordPress editor or use Zoundry depending on mood.
I’m not sure what set this off but I’ll take a look on my next and make sure there are no odd extra tags.
Thanks!
Rayne @ 80
Actually “honor” killings were common throughout the Mediterranean world, including southern Europe, into the early 20th century (at least in rural areas). Modernity extinguished them in Europe and has dramatically reduced them in many other countries. In fact they were rare in modern (post WW II) Iraq until now. The resurgence of religious funadmentalism in the Muslim world (as in the US) has contributed to a loss of rights and status for women in many parts of the region. As Siun points out, however, both are symptoms of worsening economic conditions and an anti-Western backlash which equates modernity with Western imperialism.
njr @ 114
ummm thanks rjn, we were working on that long b4 you googled definitions. Kind of like the Congressional Medal of Failure?
SnarKassandra @ 38
horror killings
Cassie, I hate it but that works for me.
Follow up on Darla Wynne:
Great Falls town council exonerates Great Falls police non-protection.
Committee rejects Wynne’s complaint about police
Rayne
I do not really buy the argument that this is the symptom of worsening economic conditions. We strangled the economy of Iraq in the 90s yet I do not recall hearing about a rise in honor killings as a result. To be fair, it is not clear as to how much accurate information we have ever been able to get out of that country prior to the invasion, especially in all the little nooks and crannies where even Saddam’s power rarely reached.
The very fact that there are organizations and institutions dedicated to combating this ugly phenomenon is a testament to just how big the problem is.
Sparhawk at 68: “No one would have heard word one of this without cell phone cameras.”
Yes, ironically mostly done to commemorate the event. If photo cell phones had been present during the Holocaust, Rwanda, the “Killing Fields” and East Timor the news would have been out immediately…carried by those involved in the atrocities.
BTW The issue is indeed a complex one.
The Yazidis would feel threatened by an interreligious relationship simply because the children would have to be officially raised as Muslim. As has been pointed out, during the Saddam era (and perhaps earlier) there were many intersectarian marriages (b/w Shiites and Sunnis). How these were resolved in terms of sectarian affiliation I don’t know. But Muslims often will accept an external marriage, but only if conversion to Islam occurs. In fact, it can be a strong mitigating factor.
But Iraq’s minorities (Chaldeans, Yazidis, Nazoreans, etc.) are usually very small in composition (and declining even faster now), and the loss of even one marriageable individual of a certain age group can be a major problem for that sect. And when the size of the group of possible partners tends to diminish to such a small number (leaving distasteful choices) young people may tend to look at “forbidden fruit”.
The fact that these minorities survived in Iraq for millenia suggests that they, and their neighbors were able to reach a fairly stable relationship of “protected minority”. There was no effort to exterminate these groups. But it has been pointed out that, after more than two millenia, the survival of almost all of these groups is now really endangered. THAT can only be attributed to the enmity and anarchy that has resulted from Bush’s invasion.
Actually Anthropologists have long had a pretty good data base for understanding the possible cause of honor killings across cultures.
It seems to occur most frequently where you have a very rigid inheritance law, justified by tribal and religious law and tradition. If it is permitted for a father or parents to disinherit a child, and find support for that in prevailing law, the so called honor killing pretty much disappears. In contrast, if property and position in the social order is more or less automatically inherited, then the boundaries of sexual association and behavior are rigidly inforced — leading to the acceptance of the idea that the violator must be killed.
You want to look to the ideas of law in culture to understand this phenonema.
It is by no means the same as Lynching. Virtually all US Lynchings were of black men who were accused, mostly falsely, of showing sexual interest in white women who were held to be both totally innocent, and incapable of having any sexual interest in black men. (not true however). Lynching was terror designed to hold a racial line of association. supporting a myth of an inferior/superior race. It was virtually never about property, though at times a black man who had acquired some property was the victim. Lynching was dramaticly reduced in the US in the South when White Women organized through their churches and pushed for sanctions against White men who lynched, or supported lynching. Incidence in the 1930’s drops from several hundred per year down to just single digets by the end of that decade. To explain it you have to understand the White Church Women’s Movement and why it succeeded in just a few years. (some of the leadership came out of the failed — by then — temperence movement.) This is an utterly fascinating part of the story of what women did in various parts of our own culture, with political power once they had achieved it in 1920. In essence, Southern Women used the ballot to tame men — first temperence, and then extrajudicial murder or lynching.
Many Islamic societies that in whole or part base law on the Koran — one or another version of Sharia — have to deal with interpretations of various passages that seem to precisely define inheritance practice. Some schools of Islamic Scholarship seem to get around the problem, and create choices about inheritance that work against the rigidity that produces honor killings by tribes, clans, etc., protecting property or status interests. Other schools of Islamic Scholarship don’t succeed in this respect. So yes it is tied to religion — but it isn’t the religion itself, it is the legal implications of interpretation.
One possible reason so called honor killing never became all that common in Northern and Western Europe has a lot to do with the pagan beliefs that continued as an cultural undercurrent long after the Christian Churches arrived. Pagan’s placed great value on the fertility of women, and a woman who was already pregnant at the time of marriage was high value. Thus you have a very high incidence of pregnancy at the time of marriage in Scandinavia, and Northern Germany in the late middle ages and continuning into the modern period — and in Spain, Italy and Greece, you have the reality of honor killings.
Thanks to everyone so far who has added information and thought on this subject.
What a tragedy that this young woman was killed; and I don’t give a shit if it was for Muslim, Christian, Jewish or any other sect – this shows the danger of religion.
Religion is dangerous.
OK…I think I can add a little more information, from my understanding: Du’a was a fine art student at Bashiqa Univeristy, and the young lad, who was not just a Muslim, but an Arab as well, ran a shop selling make-up that she used to visit on her way home. They struck up a relationship and she told her parents she would run away to be with him, which apparently they reluctantly agreed to. There’s a strong tradition of elopement in Kurdish culture, where a couple will run to another tribe and ask protection to avoid forced marriage, so it was building on this background.
However, the boy’s parents didn’t accept her: they realised it would make trouble with the Yezidi. Du’a was doomed from this point more or less. She went for help to the KDP at Bashiqa (although technically the Mosul area is part of Iraq in reality the KDP control this area) but they handed her over to a mob which have been described to me as Yezidi extremists. Bashiqa KDP said that they didn’t think it would be a serious matter, which, if you’ll excuse my cynicism, means they thought she would be killed quietly. She then went to a Yezidi religious leader and stayed there until dragged out and killed.
The whole matter of the conversion is hard to find a point on: the Yezidi group certainly used a so-called conversion to whip up the mob mentality against her, and subsequently Ansar-al-Sunna used this so-called conversion to spread Yezidi hatred by displaying the girl as a martyr for faith not for love. Yet there is no evidence of any conversion. Yezidi have fled all mixed cities: Yezidi students in Mosul have been evacuated to complete their studies in cities with more security to protect them.
The boy himself is in protective custody. He is only 17 years old himself.
I have seen all the footage and there are only men (and one boy) visible. She was killed by 14 family members while around a thousand cheer and push past each other to record it on their cellphones. After death, he body was set on fire and buried on a trash heap with a dead dog. At the request of her father I think, her body was disinterred and no less than six virginity tests were performed to prove that the girl’s ‘honour’ was not lost which has made the father very proud.
OK..as to the background. Honour killing has a long and dishonourable history in Kurdish regions but the numbers are not stable. It’s highly contingent on the situation. There were 40 in the first three months of this year in Iraqi Kurdistan: since the death of Du’a there were another 12, and an upsurge of threatened women seeking protection.
And may I add: donate to support the Underground Railway for Iraqi women threatened with HK at http://www.madre.org.
Ms. Payton, thank you for coming by with your comments. Siun has gone to bed but said she would check back in the morning in case you were able to leave a comment.
Thank you for all you do.
Sara @ 146
I have long wondered whether “honor killings” were not as prevalent in cultures that may have been matrilinear at some point versus patrilinear. I’m afraid what I’ve read of anthropology is a bit rust; weren’t the European fertility cult peopls also more likely to be matrilinear? What I’m suggesting is that is really not an inheritence issue but a genetic control issue. Matrilinear cultures will place a greater emphasis on pregnancy, therefore more control of reproduction will belong to women; patrilinear cultures will place more control in the hands of men, who dictate who will be permitted to breed and with whom.
If this is a trait that is deeply ingrained down at bios level in the human system, we are going to have to work very hard and very differently to deprogram and reprogram cultures. Will take both top-down, bottom-up engagement, and unfortunately not at all likely in the next two years.
Joanne – Thank you so much for filling us in and for the link to MADRE’s program. I’d also encourage readers to support the International Campaign that Joanne works for – they are doing amazing work on these issues.
International Campaign Against Honor Killings