(photo credit: REUTERS/Tami Chappell)
Rudy Giuliani also has a bit of a claim to combat in a different way, because he was on the ground in 9/11. And he‘s saying something popular when he says, look, we‘ve got to do anything possible to prevent that from happening again.
– Wall Street Journal's John Harwood on MSNBC's "Countdown", 5/16/07
Just stop it, Mr. Harwood, you blinkered pantywaist. It wasn't enough that 9/11 was used so cynically as a cudgel to launch a preemptive and illegal war against a country that, despite Ron Paul's well-intentioned but off-the-mark comments at the debates on Tuesday night, did NOT attack us. Now you want to conflate Vietnam War draft dodger Rudy Giuliani's exploitation of 9/11 with "justifiable" cheerleading for waterboarding? I think this country has had quite enough of "President Jack Bauer," thankyouverymuch.
And no, Mr. Harwood, Rudy Giuliani cannot "lay claim" to 9/11. He no more owns the tragedy than any other New Yorker, like my shellshocked neighbor who, when I met him up on the rooftops to watch the rest of the horror of that day unfold a mile south, recounted in an eerily detached monotone about fleeing WTC1 and seeing people hitting the pavement from ninety stories up. Or the friend of mine who broke her ankle trying to scramble out of the way of falling debris. Or the woman who battled back from the edge of death after she was engulfed in burning jet fuel as she rushed from the buildings. Or the families of the restaurant workers who had been starting their day at Windows on the World, way up on the top floor. Or the 9/11 widows so snidely and cynically mocked by the War Whores on the Right who accused them of pimping the tragedy for their personal benefit.
Rudy Giuliani cleared $16.1 million dollars over the last 16 months, mostly in speaking fees. Tell me again who's pimping the tragedy? Because I'm pretty sure that Giuliani hasn't been getting paid to traverse the country, lecturing Promise Keepers on the sanctity of marriage. Mr. Giuliani is making the most of an attack that happened on his watch, and is determined to fool people into thinking that he, and only he, could hold New York City together through the crisis. Why, as Giuliani's theme song goes, had any other person been mayor that day, well, god knows how many more people would have died!
And in Rudy's vacuum-sealed world, geopolitics had no bearing whatsoever on Al Qaeda's motives for striking the United States. Witness his dig at Democrats after the debates on Tuesday night, via Greg Sargent:
It reminded me of the Saudi prince that gave me the $10 million. He did the same thing: "This is America at fault, the way America has outreach to the world." Look, it's real simple what happened. These people came here and killed us because of our freedom of religion, because of our freedom for women, because they hate us…If you're confused about this, I think you put our country in much greater jeopardy. The reality is, these people are planning to kill us because — and this is hard for people to recognize, I usually hear this on the Democratic side, don't usually hear it on the Republican side — you've got to face reality. If you can't face reality, you can't lead. [Emphasis Greg's.]
Oh really, Rudy? Tell that to George Bush — you can't get more out of touch than the current President. No, Rudy Giuliani is gaming the system, trying to wring every last drop of blood out of 9/11 that he can.
And by the way, now he's taking credit for something else: the drop in abortion rates in New York City while he was mayor.
In the first two Republican presidential debates, Rudolph W. Giuliani has addressed questions about his stand on abortion by citing figures showing that abortions declined when he was mayor of New York, while adoptions increased.Mr. Giuliani’s implication was that he had successfully reduced abortions at least in part by encouraging adoptions.
Big surprise there, Giuliani taking credit for something he was peripherally involved in.
A review of the figures from Mr. Giuliani’s years as mayor, from 1994 to 2001, shows that although abortions did decline and adoptions did increase, the changes mirrored national trends.
Furthermore, other factors probably contributed to those changes, calling into question Mr. Giuliani’s suggesting correlation between the two trends.
…
When Mr. Giuliani brought up the increase in adoptions, he was referring to those using city agencies involving children in the city foster care system. He was not including private adoptions or those by New Yorkers in other countries.
At the time, the child welfare system in New York had been mired in extreme disarray, with reports of severe abuse and highly publicized deaths. Mr. Giuliani created the Administration for Children’s Services in 1996 to try to improve caseworker responses to reports of neglect and to move children more quickly out of temporary foster homes and into permanent adoptive homes.
That increased adoptions for a few years, an increase that resulted largely from Mr. Giuliani’s response to the foster care crisis. Little if anything in the public record suggests that he was promoting adoption as an alternative to abortion.
At the time, a law enacted in the Clinton administration, the Adoption and Safe Families Act, offered huge incentives to cities' adoption programs.
Mmm-hmm. Serendipity smiles on Rudy Giuliani again and he "mistakes" it for his own greatness. I am curious to see just how long he can sustain this "America's Mayor" crap before people realize that he is merely another Emperor wannabee strutting around buck naked.
Related posts:
- Late Night: Sarah Palin Consults Her Little Black Book
- Late Night: Among the Republicans’ Chief Weaponry is Lying, Hypocrisy, and a Fanatical Devotion to Torture
- BREAKING: Chris Christie Declared Victor in New Jersey; NYC Mayor Bloomberg Re-Elected by Narrow Margin
- Harwood Confirms: Comment Came from “Obama Adviser”
- Gay Mayor in Houston? Could Very Well Be…





Spotlight







Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Firedoglake
Advanced search

zed
Hi watertiger!
lolo!
Hi lolo and WT.
And Alison! Off to read.
Mr. Giuliani has organized crime connections. Just look at Bernie Kerik. How can the GOP even take Giuliani’s bid to be prez seriously? They think Rudy the G is a winner I guess.
Just dropped by to say hi before I put back the kitchen. (The refrigerator died yesterday and the new one arrived today.)
Missin’ y’all. My work life is awful and I hope to make it better soon. But the fixing is taking a lot of time.
Giuliani was one lucky guy. All that disaster and death and all he can do is make more money. Incredible.
What a sick freak he is.
People who really have experience with war
There is no fate horrible enough for the Politicians, Pundits and Yesmen who made this possible.
Excellent post watertiger!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 6
Because he talks the talk, and thanks to toadies like the WSJ’s John Harwood, people believe that he can walk the walk.
I caught the Rasmussen Survey out in an utter lie!
Yesterday they posted that once again Bush had broken the 40% barrier in his approval ratings. I was again dumbfounded at this anomalous report that goes against all tyh other polls.
Well today HISTORY HAS BEEN ERASED. Rasmussen not only reports that Bush’s pool numbers have sunk to record lows on their surveys (35%) but then changed their previous report.
They simply altered what they had said earlier, without comment, like the good “historical revisionists” that they are!
Turns out that TPM recorded the data point, though…and confirmed to me that Rasmussen had, indeed, proclaimed Bush’s resurgent support…before they realised that the polls were heading towards Hades at a rapid clip.
http://electioncentral.tpmcafe….._tags/bush
Whelp.. Bernie & co typify the rethug attitude toward homeland security — don’t you see that the best way to defend the country is turn its security apparatus into a personal piggy bank?
James Petras on the Israeli lobby
http://www.informationclearing…..e17725.htm
Those wascawwy wepubwicans.
Alison @ 7
All it requires is an absolute void of morals, dignity and good taste.
Ask Rudy why WTC workers were told to return to their offices as workers ran out of the white house.
Watertiger!
I worked in Manhattan for most of Y2K. I was officially living in Manchester, CT but caught Amtrak in on Mondays and home on Fridays. During the week, I was living in a furnished studio 2 blocks south of the South Tower (200 Liberty Place). The apartment overlooked West Street and toward the tower. That was “my” neighborhood that got destroyed and I could have easily been in the basement of the tower waiting on a train if they had been a year earlier in the attack. Someone sent me an aerial shot of ground zero taken about 3-4 weeks after. I pull it up occasionally as a reminder of what was and may have been.
Rudy was and is totally clueless but the wing-nutters have bought the myth.
As you know: Abner Louima, Amadou Diallo, Patrick Dorismond.
So the GOP is salivating over the prospect of my party nominating Hillary. Well… I am absolutley panting at Rudy’s possible nomination. Bring him on! Puleeze! We’ll be happy to give Rudy the Geraldine Ferraro treatment.
hi watertiger…
waddo i goddado not to get banned here, too?
./
Important news from crooks and liars:
Air America Is Relaunching Both On The Air And On The Web! Linky:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/…..re-launch/
are we really going to nominate Hillary? And are they really going to give us Rudy? Fracking subway election…. lowest voter turnout outside the tristate area in the last hundred years, guaranteed. Giuliani-Lieberman ‘08 vs Clinton-whomever should do it, I think. Snoooz.
Rudy’s current wife if some kind of creature if you want to take a look at judgement.
But relatively little is known about the complex relationships between Mr. Giuliani’s various businesses, their clients and the fees they charge. Because the company has no public shareholders, it doesn’t have to make much information public. Though political rivals have pressed Mr. Giuliani to provide a complete list of his clients, which include pharmaceutical companies, distressed businesses and energy companies, the Republican front-runner’s campaign has so far declined to do so.
http://online.wsj.com/article/…..primary_hs
OMG I’m Trapped In A Recursion Nightmare!
Get this:
The Commerce Dept’s Inspector General, who is charged among other duties with protecting government whistleblowers from retaliation…
“The U.S. Office of Special Counsel found that Inspector General Johnnie E. Frazier wrongly demoted the two employees during an investigation of his spending, according to a copy of the report obtained by The Washington Post. It concluded that Frazier’s actions violated the Whistleblower Protection Act.”
courtesy of TPM: linky
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.c…..014204.php
cinnamonape @ 12
Here’s todays Rasmussen Survey…not a mention that they had Bush up at 41% Yesterday. They claim that it was 38%!!!
So either there has been a 6% swing in approval ratings in just one day from what they posted yesterday. Or they posted false information (or more false than their usual drivel) perhaps to influence political events on the ground. I wonder how many right wing blogs picked up the anomalous Rasmussen Survey and cited it as proof of a great turn-around.
And why hasn’t Rasmussen even noted that they posted phoney numbers and covered it up subsequently????
Yesterday I expressed my fears that Bushco has a plan to basically take over our country. Today this diary on Kos. It has 788 comments so far so I dont feel so foolish.
Giuliani will not let outsiders, like the press, into his office at 5 Times Square.
Just sayin’. Not exactly the beacon of transparency, our Rudy.
cinnamonape @ 26
Because they’re a total nutter operation and so, quite used to playing the numbers, then lying about it?
President Rudy Giuliani? Not gonna happen, doesn’t have a anglo saxon ring to it. On the otherhand his Eminence Cardinal Giuliani is a possible career path.
And the fact of the matter is that the republicans don’t need to look for a presidential candidate since Hillary Clinton is a republican running on the democratic ticket. Bill was the best republican president whom we can thank for handing over American Industry to China and NAFTA.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 6
He’s just like them – Connive, conflate, conspire, and carve up a big fat public pie while fleecing the marks…What’s not to like?
It’s all in the hands of the practictioners of wingnuttery- so who knows- but most think hell will freeze over before the snakehandlers allow Rudy to win the gooper primary.
the Mayor stationed the City’s Emergency response unit in WTC 7 and had the building re-inforced and secured – then the whole building just collapsed at free fall speed during the city’s biggest emergency in a hundred years!
what a record to run on!
plus, who told the BBC it was going to fall 30 minutes before it fell?
cinnamonape @ 12
May 5th disapproval rate of 64%. Tell me again why he’s so cocky?
Rudy is running true to Republican form. How much do we really know about George’s and Dicky’s finances?
I knew it! Blaming Clinton again!
Rasmussen must have had a software meltdown.
His numbers are always higher of the way he ask the approval questions.
He reports a three day rolling average- so if it suddenly dipped down to 35%- that means that last night’s sample must have been REALLY low- 31% or so.
OT, sorry, but this just caught my eye:
The Rev. Fred Phelps rears his ugly head again
sporkovat @ 33
I’m sure everyone has seen Rick Rescorla sit on his desk in the WTC and tell us that they were going to fly planes into the building
Atom Films
snowbird42 @ 27
i’m already under the damm bed, now where do i go this house doesn’t have a basement…
and just to add gasoline to the fire, don’t forget the repeal of Posse Commitatus (the provision that forbids using military troops for civilian police work). sold as a “katrina fix” it basically allows anyone given a national guard uniform to act as military police, federalized and totally under the control of….The President!
(cue threnody in x music…)
sporkovat @ 33
that was building 7 and it was brought down as a controlled fall to prevent it falling on its own and taking out two other buildings. they didn’t emphasize that part of it at the time but i have complete tapes for four weeks in that period on CNN and CBS and it is mentioned several times, usually as filler around other stories. sorry, my tinfoil hat only goes so far…
raven @ 39
I hadn’t seen that until you just posted it but Alex Jones pretty much said the same thing prior to it too
john in sacramento @ 42
hell richard clarke said as much TO CHIMPY AND DARTH and they ignored him. if gore had been allowed to serve, dick clarke (love that coincidence!) would have been in charge of counter terrorism and i rather suspect he’d have orderd massousai’s hard drive opened up and 9/11 would have never happened.
I’m sure everyone has seen Rick Rescorla sit on his desk in the WTC and tell us that they were going to fly planes into the building
Atom Films
I hadn’t seen that until you just posted it but Alex Jones pretty much said the same thing prior to it too
I became very interested in Rick after 9/11. He is actually the trooper on the original cover of “We Were Soldiers”. After the first WTC bombing he drove the Morgan Stanley workers nuts running drills. No telling how many people he saved on 9/11, he went back up to try to get more of “his people” out when the tower collapsed.
Watertiger – thank you for a very very good post!
Rudy deserves our disgust for so many reasons.
Vote for Democracy in ‘08. Vote Democratic.
Giuliani is wasting his own time and money. He has no chance of getting the nomination, let alone winning the election. The man’s own children don’t even speak to him, because of the way he publicly humiliated their mother while he was in office. He’s on his third marriage, now (and so his current wife.) How can he win over all those “family values” Republicans?
I do find it interesting that he is bucking the anti-choice Republican party line.
Overall, I’m with OK Kiddo @ 19—bring it on, Rudy! I’m having fun just watching him. His ego gets bigger every minute. I can’t wait until it all explodes.
Alfred Kelgarries @ 41
Normally it takes months of planning, with dynamite charges and all, to bring down a building. I’m adjusting my foil.
he’s Rudiculous.
OT, maybe someone posted this before; from truthout:
“Fifty-six members of Attorney General Alberto Gonzales’ graduating class at Harvard Law School signed a quarter-page open letter in yesterday’s Washington Post excoriating their former classmate for his “cavalier handling of our freedoms.”
Scarborough is saying Rosie O’Donnell is calling the troops in Iraq terrorists. Ms. O’Donnell is doing no such thing. O’Donnell is calling the Bush Administration the real terrorists in Iraq. And I agree with Ms. O’Donnell’s assessment.
punaise @ 49
Thuferin Thucotash
From the little I have read about the new Michael Moore film Sicko, there are NYC first responders in the film with major health issues. Moore has to be happy with the Treasury Dept wanting to investigate his trip to Cuba because it will beef up the interest in the film.
snowbird42 @ 27
this morning i posted a link to the new google timeline for USAgate on your post. tonight it comes back with a did not match any documents. lol, it got scrubed!
ccmask @ 48
okay, i’m not a demolitions expert, but IIRC all they did was blow out two main pillars on one side, and the building was so badly damaged it just fell in on itself at that point. they gave out the time to the correspondents so they wouldn’t get caught in the rubble.
OTHO, DON’T get me started on timothy mcveigh. that stinker smells of conspiracy clear to the galactic center…
punaise @ 49
A Guil of Denial
;>)
Just imagine how a newly elected Republican president in 2008 would view such a mandate.
If you define ‘terrorism’ as the application of mortal force to bring about political change, then NOT to call what USer troops are doing in Iraq as terrorism is the rankest sort of hypocrisy…
./
OH oh! Why would it be scrubbed? I havent had internet for 24 hours my server slowed to a ridiculous crawl(10 minutes to load a page)Back now though.
Alfred Kelgarries @ 55
Apparently, his accomplice Nichols now shares a cellblock with Walker Lindh (after they broke their deal with him to house him in a medium sec prison near his family, and shipped him off to shrub’s underground Colorado gulag for America’s special enemies)
Alfred Kelgarries @ 55
From a fire??? Since when do building in NY collapse because of a fire? If that were true, firefighting in the city woud come to an end. They do not collapse buildings in New York because of fires. I come from a family of 3 FDNY members. I’m not trying to give you a hard time, but collapsing buildings takes months of preparations.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 51
You and I agree on a lot these days!
Mr. Gonzales is doing one thing. He’s carrying out the wishes and directives of his boss. The President of the United States.
A-fucking-men Watertiger. I was also about a mile south that day watching the whole thing unfold.
What I will never forget is how Rudy shamelessly tried to extend his mayoral term (illegally) due to 9-11. A hint that he would be as ruthless (or moreso) than Bush in terms of his idea of unitary executive privilege.
snowbird42 @ 59
beats me. i thought the timeline view was pretty cool feature even tho it lacked some of the recent developments
didja ever hear of elohim city, ok?
that’s where mcveigh was heading when he got stopped outside chandler, ok…
google/dogpile/yahoo elohim city…
it’s the throbbing center of the whole xian/fundie/patriot/identity movement in the country…
if it were razed, i–for one–wouldn’t raise a single whimper of protest…
.
[Mod Note; let’s be very careful about what we wish upon our fellow human beings]
snowbird42 @ 59
Speaking of scrubbing, Miss SnarKassandra wanted me to let you know she has a new post about censorship of our military abroad.
ccmask @ 61
ouch! well, then i may have to expand my tinfoil hat as well. and i lived for six months in brooklyn doing a detail job so I do know a bit about the burg. (i once rode with a cabbie who claimed to have been a general at kursk. as i did my thesis on that battle, i asked him some pretty tough questions; he got them all right. either he was a total kursk nut, or he really WAS a russian general at kursk!) back to your comment (and i don’t take offense in the slightest, because if you are right and i’m wrong i’ve LEARNED SOMETHING! how can that possibly be bad?) what is your explanation of the whole building seven business then?
tw3k @ 65
I must have done something wrong. seems to work again.
it never ends, it just never frakking ends. talk about chinese water torture…
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.c…..014205.php
at this point, i’m ready to believe they were going to FIRE THE ENTIRE DOJ and replace them with the congregations of Falwell, Dobson, and Robertson…
ccmask @ 61
The building had some big diesal tanks pretty high up (on the 2oth floor?) as back up fuel for Rudy’s command center which had caught on fire and so the building would’ve collapsed anyway.
Great post. When Harwood said that last night, I did a double-take to my TV. Of course, as is its wont (where’d THAT word come from), my TV failed to respond. But you didn’t.
Thanks for getting that out there, and so beautifully… as usual. Thorough and deeelish.
Alfred, I have no idea. All I know is that the demolition created some really nice Class A real estate. :))
tw3k @ 69
Cool!
TexBetsy@67 -
Miss SnarKassandra certainly is an impressive young woman!
interesting,thanks
Watertiger, that was Snarkaliciously Excellent.
Steel Framed building
burn vs. controlled demo
Any Questions?
Lea-no uh @ 75
Yep! She’ll be here later, but is studying for a geometry exam (or reading comics in her room) at present.
Lea-no uh @ 75
she is that. Wow! hopefully she’ll grace us with her presence again soon…
Look, I’m not going to make any friends here by saying this, but enough with the conspiracy theories about WTC7. Just exactly what would “blowing up” WTC7 prove?
You want to look for conspiracies? Look at why the President and his staff dismissed a “hair on fire” PDB about bin Laden hitting the United States.
TexBetsy @ 79
I would have probably wished I’d been reading the comics but then my worst grade in HS was in geometry.
watertiger @ 81
Besides the NYC emergency center, what else was in building 7?
watertiger @ 81
that’s exactly my point. but was it a conspiracy or just con-stupid-cy? do you actually think bushco had some credible warning of the attack and did nothing to stop it? (I don’t and I hate this administration with a passion so deep its frightening…)
the mods must be asleep on their delete switches to allow all this rampant 9/11 questioning of the Official Story! woo!
So I fould the NYTimes story mentioning the reinforcement of the Salomon Bros building, WTC 7:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/f…..gewanted=1
including the quote
lets remember the Official Story says this building fell to to scattered secondary fires – it was never hit by the airplanes.
what a $200 million waste, all that re-inforcement?!?
Someone here says they decided to pull it that day and notified reporters early to keep them safe???
what – did Batman kick it and it fell down, or did Rudy have a team of demolition experts on hand who rushed in there and knew where to place all the charges so it imploded completely?
People should ask him these questions every single campaign stop.
Via TPM–it just gets worse and worse (or better and better depending on your perspective):
People should ask him these questions every single campaign stop.
Those are the same people that would accost John Glenn about the moon landing. Or bug every Kennedy about Jack’s murder.
Rudy isn’t hard enough to run against with all of the crap he tries to pull already (and what WT listed)?
Seriously…
I guess I’m pretty lucky because when I lived in Manhattan, Mayor Koch lived in the mansion. Here’s a fun wiki page listing all the NY Mayors since 1664.
Woodhall Hollow @ 71The building had some big diesal tanks pretty high up (on the 2oth floor?) as back up fuel for Rudy’s command center which had caught on fire and so the building would’ve collapsed anyway.
Building 7 was on the same understory foundation as the two towers. When those went down it effectively damaged the structural foundation of Building 7 as well. Not only were the surrounding supporting structures around the base damaged when the massive collapse occurred into the seven floor understory, but it also “blew outs” materials through the interconnecting passageways with velocities equivalent to a tornado.
That is why Building 7 collapsed from the base….there wasn’t anything down there to prevent it from falling.
Regarding the other two towers there is good reserch on the reasons they collapsed from stressed steel supports as a result of intense temperatures. It doesn’t require any where near melting temperature to cause stress collapse. There were several articles on this in the Journal of Materials Science.
watertiger @ 81
Bingo!
Brilliant framing. It’s a perfect response to Rudy’s faux heroism:
“Rudy Giuliani is pimping the tragedy of 9/11 for his own political gain.”
War Whores indeed.
cinnamonape @ 88
Building 7 was on the same understory foundation as the two towers. When those went down it effectively damaged the structural foundation of Building 7 as well. Not only were the surrounding supporting structures around the base damaged when the massive collapse occurred into the seven floor understory, but it also “blew outs” materials through the interconnecting passageways with velocities equivalent to a tornado.
That is why Building 7 collapsed from the base….there wasn’t anything down there to prevent it from falling.
Regarding the other two towers there is good reserch on the reasons they collapsed from stressed steel supports as a result of intense temperatures. It doesn’t require any where near melting temperature to cause stress collapse. There were several articles on this in the Journal of Materials Science.
THANK you. did your sources ever actually discuss an emergency drop of the building, or am i misremembering (those tapes are 1500 miles away in a storage right now…)
Zap @ 85
that is called a straw man argument – no one here said anything about moon landings, kennedy’s, or the Gnomes of Zurich, who are really behind it all.
ok, is that all you got? straw men?
anyway, I was going to say remarkable open mindedness around here tonight.
cinnamonape @ 87
good ol’ occam
watertiger @ 81
Agreed…Even though the 20-odd percent of the American public who make Doug Feith look like Steven Hawking are free to shun the truth from their cardboard-colored dreams.
9/11 was an opportunity taken by BushCo, not a situation created by them directly.
That said, Rudy would like us to think that the sun never sets on the American Empire as far as ‘foreign rabble’ are concerned.
But one man’s golden stream is another’s rain of piss.
watertiger @ 81
WTC7 is the smoking gun, the lynch pin. Prove the collapse was a controlled demolition and the whole story comes tumbling down. Just like this neocon admin and a couple other buildings we all knew. The medium is the message. Just watch the first couple seconds of this: LINK
cinnamonape @ 88
That is right–blowing up the WTC as some kind of “inside job” is a distraction. And too hard to pull off w/out getting caught. Someone would’ve had to talk. As we are seeing now with all the evidence of malfeasance coming out now.
I watched both towers fall–and one thing I remember is the way they listed and swayed before they fell. Everyone around me was yelling (for minutes before it finally happened) “Oh no, they’re gonna collapse.” You could actually see the buildings “weaken.”
so er what understory foundations were WTC 5 and WTC 6 standing on then?
Mods, please examine 66 for encite to…
I’m uncomfortable, anyone else?
do you actually think bushco had some credible warning of the attack and did nothing to stop it?
ayup, uh sher do…
these were they guys said allas they needed was a lil o’dat ‘pearl harbor magic.’
the regime was on the rocks, a laughungstock
they NEEDED A TERRIBLE CATASTROPHE,both to deflect attention away from themselves, and to pave the way for the PNACabal’s agenda–which was going NOWHERE on SEPT 10, 2001…
you sorely misjudge these fascist oigs if you deem them incapable of letting it happen…i shall go to my GRAVE believing cheney knew everything about the planned attacks except, perhaps, the date and the flight numbers…
.
sporkovat @ 98
As I understand it, 7 was above the same subway tracks (big space of air) as WT1 & WT2
that is called a straw man argument – no one here said anything about moon landings, kennedy’s, or the Gnomes of Zurich, who are really behind it all.
Well, would just look at the damn context of wt’s post; then care to rephrase that?
Jebus H.
.
That is one helluva post. Nice job
do you actually think bushco had some credible warning of the attack and did nothing to stop it?
Actually, not only were they a laughing stock, but Bush’s popularity was in the toilet–and Cheney and his neo-com and big oil buddies had big plans for iraq, which weren’t going so well, since no one would’ve taken Bush seriously in terms of selling the need to go to war. So they sat back and let it all happen. Which also gave them the excuse to dismantle the whole set of espionage checks and balances set up by congress vis a vis the FISA courts, etc.
TexBetsy @ 100
this is my last post on this topic as i’m interested in current PROVABLE conspiracies. My comment is this: I was in managua, nicaragua in a richter 6 earthquake. it didn’t last that long, or the whole city would have collapsed; a year later there was another one and the city did collapse (1971 IIRC) i watched steel buildings in the downtown area sway like palm trees in a hurricane for a few terrible seconds. aftewards, we examined the foundations of our hotel; one of the team had engineering background and he said “we sleep SOMEWHERE ELSE tonight.” modern buildings look so strong and tough, but they’re really amazingly fragile when hit with forces beyond normal everyday use. and having lived in NYC i know what a maze it is under the city. sometimes i’m actually amazed more buildings dont simply fall into sinkholes from all the digging done below them. anyways, that’s all i can constructively offer on the topic. going back to hunting for bushco vulnerabilities now…
watertiger @ 81
So, sadly, true.
Simp @ 101
That is one helluva post. Nice job
yup. the substance of the thread and a point well made.
tw3k @ 92
I love Occam. Cut away the bullshit and what’s left is the answer.
Official story: A passenger airliner hit the Pentagon but there were only small fragments of a plane and body parts. Using Occam’s razor, did 60 tons of plane and all those bodies vaporize due to impact and jet fuel fire or were they never there to begin with? LINK and LINK
watertiger!
Right on!
exelint poste
It was cheney, whose portfolio in the regime was and is intelligence, who both knew of the plot and let it happen…
the least one can say, perhaps, is that THEY underestimated the scope of the catastrophe they were prepared to permit to happen. mebbe cheney and the PNACabalistas thought it would be a smaller attack than the one that occurred…mebbe they thought, only one plane…
go to the PNAC documents, and look at the names: the folks responsible for 9/11 attacks are named right there…50-60 percent of ‘em were in the Cheney/bush shitehouse…
./
Lou Costello @ 106
:P
Sorry for the long one, Watertiger, but Chuck Todd and Chris Matthews need to be called out on this as well. Look how awful this transcript from yesterday is:
http://www.911research.com/wtc…..lapse2.mpg
Here is a good video of WTC 7. A 47 story bulding collapses in 6 seconds-almost a thing of beauty. There was only one casualty, Secret Service agent Craig Miller
Do you folks know why this is such a bone of contention for us, all these years later? Do you know why we are at each others’ throats about who is right and who is wrong, who is wearing tinfoil and who is lucid?
Because the government has done everything possible to thwart and obstruct the necessary transparency of investigation and reporting that would satisfy the majority of us — and they will keep it that way as long as we beat on us instead of them.
We don’t have all the answers. No one here can provide conclusive evidence one way or the other – but that’s not our responsibility to each other. It’s our responsibility to demand that the third party entity that we provide ourselves as a social contract will do its damned job to protect us, and in failing, investigate and tell us the full unvarnished truth as to why it failed. We owe demanding the answers to each other.
And we shouldn’t be content with getting the answers in 40-plus years — we are only now finding out that more than one shooter may have been possible when our government told us only one shooter killed our president. Should our children find out only 4 or more decades from now what the truth was about that dark day in September? Hell f*cking no. And we should not accept any person who contributed to the lies and obstructions as an elected official in the mean time.
F*ck you, Rudy, and the horse you rode in on. You let the victims down, you let the survivors down, and you’re a f*cking ghoul to boot.
there’s that Aug.11 pdb…
you’ll wear down willie of o’s razor to the nub paring down that sumbitch…
interestingly, occam’s razor–wielded scrupulously–eliminates the use and/or the need for ‘god.’
/
So Rudy owns 911 and he owns the American Media. Funny that his business is in the American Media building, isn’t it?
Rayne
Did you have toobZ trouble today?
Rayne at 112 – THX
When fear is all you’ve got (see Tuesday’s GOP debate), you gotta push it as big as you can.
Even if you gotta do it yourself. GOP FEAR ~ They count ($) on you being afraid so they can save you. “Vote for me or you’ll die!”
I’m with you, Rayne.
suddenly my comments are awaiting moderation?
why this one?
is there something obscene, or vituperative in my observations about william of occam?
wtf?
By the way, my FDNY family members believe Osama did it and there is no conspiracy. I have more trouble myself believing that the Republicans were able to draft the Patriot act so fast, considering no one really works in this administration. That is the part that I question. And of course, Bush being forced by someone to sit in the classroom that day.
Rayne @ 112
hear hear
Dover Bitch,
I wasn’t home in time to catch the Tweety show. It was all I could do not to throw my dinner at the television when Harwood went on his Droolianing.
Woodhall Hollow, omg that must have been absolutely horrible to watch the towers fall.
Rayne, you are awesome. Well said.
DON’T get me started on timothy mcveigh. that stinker smells of conspiracy clear to the galactic center…
It is amazing what you can find with eyes open. “Lone Nuts” can’t plant second and third devices at OKC……PERIOD!
a joke —
Today, the secretary of defense came in to brief Bush. The secretary of defense said “We’ve lost 3 Brazilian soldiers in Iraq.” To everyone’s surprise, the color in Bush’s face drained and he put his head to his desk. Finally, when he was able to get himself together, he said
“Just exactly how many is 3 Brazillian?”
watertiger @ 122
I’m with ya. I declared Lou Dobbs dead to me two days ago, but of course, glutton for punishment that I am, I watched that crap again today.
There’s been an interesting movie on cable in the middle of the night out here called “The F Word.” It’s a sort of mockumentary during the 2004 GOP convention in New York.
One of the more memorable parts for me at least (other than seeing a high school acquaintance in it) was when somebody complained that the Republicans were in New York to dance on the graves.
Rudy’s entire campaign is about dancing on those graves. That the media would be so willing to clap along with it is nauseating.
Thanks for this post, by the way.
Elliott (117) — only first thing this morning here at FDL, sounds like they had a burp either with the blog database(s) or the server backend.
No big deal, all over between 9am-10am. What about you?
TexBetsy @ 125
you owe me a new keyboard!
Personally, I don’t find a conspiracy theory of 9/11 credible, simply because our present junta has so clearly demonstrated their managerial and organizational incompetence as to make any belief in their ability to plot, execute and then subsequently conceal a major terrorist attack absolutely laughable. The one thing.. the only thing.. these people CAN do and do very very well is politics, especially of the backhanded variety. This means they are good at using the system to subvert the constitution, undermine their political enemies, cause the bureaucracy and security apparatus to act gestapo-like and violate human rights, possibly even rig elections. But, while a valuable skill, the ability to engage in politics of this nature does not build bridges, win wars, balance a budget or blow up a building. The very worst role they could have played in 9/11 would have been, allowing, through intentional inaction, AQ & Co to carry out an attack, once the eminence of such an attack was known to intellilgence.. and even that would be pushing it (I personally prefer the theory that they knew it was going to happen, when and where and did nothing about it because they were too unorganized and indifferent to read their briefing reports).
Loo Hoo. @ 121
It was. And worse were the white concrete dust refugees from the scene that paraded by, by the thousands shortly afterward. And the weeks of missing people posters all around the city. The silence (NY was soooo quiet for so long). The grief and the fear. Going down to ground zero to help hand out food to the rescue workers. The flower & candle shrines which just turned up everywhere.
But you want to know one of the worst things? Was when we finally got TV again (I am in a cableless dwelling and most of the TV transmitters were on top of WTC 1) listening to the vengeful madness that had overtaken everywhere else in the country. It was so strange–there was so little anger here. Shock, grief, fear — yes. But not overt displays of anger and rage and vengence.
Alfred Kelgarries @ 129
I did say that it was a joke.
“Was it Dick Cheney in the Blue Room with the shotgun?”
I just lifted that from mcjoan at kos
Would that be a “Yes”?
TexBetsy @ 131
i know, and i braced myself. but some jokes are so powerful no advance preparation can contain them. i’ve just forwarded that one to my bush jokes email list (unfortunately its on the milnet so i can’t give out the address.) i thot i’d seen every possible variation of a bush joke but that one got through…
LoudounLib @ 124
Doubles!
I think George and Rudy should own 9-11.
Ownership of all the death, suffering, botched recovery and response.
It’s theirs.
ccmask @ 120
That was the real Coup! Andy Card whispered in his ear: “Darth and Rummy pulled it off. And they said play along or you’re gone too!” When something really strange happens…check out who is in charge. LINK
excellent post, watertiger…
I nearly screamed at the teevee when I heard Harwood last night and I wanted him to be challenged. but it didn’t happen – until now/
And Rayne @114…You are spot on.
there is no detail forgotten by this bunch of criminals.
Rayne @ 128
I couldn’t get on at tall in the early am and then found fdl also having some troubles, and it seemed others did, too.
then I wonder why this is happening to lots of people, and flash back to that little room in the att building and so I imagine they’re plugging the internet into another tap or trap (or something)
Elliott @ 131
that vid is proof that bush will explode sometime when he gets a tough question.
i fear that the people who dismiss rudy as a rethug nominee are still thinking in the world of reality
in shadowland, he is a brave hero leader and the divorces and the mob ties and all the badness that sane people see and are disgusted by just don’t matter
reagan, the family values man, was divorced; it didn’t slow him down for a minute
if the rethugs like rudy’s authoritarian tough guy ways, they will overlook everything else
Woodhall Hollow @ 131
WH, are you going to YK2? If so I’ll hope to meet you. If not, do you have a site where you tell your story?
Rudy Soprano for president.
Another failing of Rudy’s on 9/11 was not clearing the area after the first plane hit. He’s told the story about that day and said he looked at the clear blue sky and knew that it wasn’t due to visibility. If that second building had been emptied, lives would have been saved. Now, I’m not suggesting that he should be clairvoyant but I am suggesting that if he’s pretending to be this great protector, then he would have been more pro-active and aggressive in saving lives.
Of course, if BushCo had been paying attention, he could have warned the states, but..uh …no…..Bush was on vacation.
Eureka Springs @ 143
or Rudy Castrato
Woodhall Hollow @ 131 /// i worked on the relief boats at the wtc site handing out meals to the rescue workers … i have never been so humbled in my life … fdny and nypd covered in dust and grime, exhausted, thousand yard stares … but so polite and gracious when they sat down to eat, hammers picks and shovels clanking, and acting like they were grateful to us when we owed everything in the world to them … and, like you said, the only rage and anger i saw was on the teevee from the little men far away
GottaLaff @ 72
I wont tell.
There’s a very intersting story at msnbc on the comeygate story. (well i have to call it *something*)… here’s the money quote:
“After Comey, the most intriguing figure in this story is Jack Goldsmith. As head of the Justice’s Department’s Office of Legal Counsel, which advises the government on the constitutionality of its policies and actions, it was Goldsmith who began challenging many of the administration’s anti-terror tactics, from torture to domestic spying. Goldsmith was essentially driven out of government by his opponents in the White House and Vice President Dick Cheney’s office. He’s now comfortably ensconced at Harvard Law School—but boy, does he have a story to tell if he ever chooses to do so.”
linky:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18…../newsweek/
solai @ 144
that’s a Huge one Solai, it’s not like terrorists weren’t trying to bring those towers down for YEARS before 9/11, for chrissakes. We knew it could happen.
watertiger @ 81
Thank you and amen.
Loo Hoo. @ 140
Unfortunately not. And no, I don’t have a site–my story that day is almost identical to the millions of others who were “there” and relatively undramatic.
ccmask @ 73
Isn’t it true that Halliburton had some interest in the towers and they had asbestos problems?
I think the owners (Rockefellers) began thinking of how to get rid of the buildings way back in the ’90s. But, how *do* you get rid of that kind of building in a big city? It had to have been discussed by quite a few people, including some engineers.
Anyway, the buildings were sold a month or two before the attacks, so it was apparently a solved problem by then.
There are far too many questions about the towers and the surrounding events to slough it off.
For example, where’s the list of everybody who short-sold stocks in ONLY the airlines (and perhaps their insurers) used in the attack(s)?
Eureka Springs,
Congrats on your front pager with EW!
wtf @ 144
You know–you hit on an amazing thing about those times, which was the intense sense of gratitude felt by so many people. So many people reached out to others in so many ways–large and small. It was one of the most selfless times of my life. It was one of those terrible things that really brought out the best in most people. We were all in it together. Too bad Rudy & others in power didn’t learn a damn thing.
Occam’s razor: US was manipulated into war previously. No tinfoil required to understand the purpose. WADR, SpecOps quite capable of doing the job and never breathing a word.
IANAE (engineer), but simultaneous blowouts on all 4 sides of the tower, collapse into footprint is controlled demo. The cleanup, lack of evidence, scripted statements 30 mins after, confiscated tapes, scrap exports and obfuscation speak volumes. N*RAD.
It ain’t a far jump from shadowy to dropping the y. But that would be a level of horror almost too hard to grasp. They have bumbled the ‘war’, cause that was the bait.
The switch, in profits, is the success.
It’s just that simple.
LATE NIGHT
The Rockefellers did not own the WTC.
The Port Authority of NY and NJ owned it and had just leased it to Larry Silverstein.
New Thread
Loo Hoo. @ 153
Aww shucks *blush* just helping spread the word and demand some answers..)
Woodhall Hollow @ 154
… nyc was then more than ever different from the rest of the country; people in nyc were as translucent as new parents who haven’t slept in weeks; open, gentle … really reaching out to each other … a whole city on the verge of tears and someone always ready with a tissue … i knew people who knew people who lost someone; that’s all unbearable, but for the great majority who merely lost a chunk of what they saw and where they worked and ate lunch every day it was a reminder of how mortal we all are … and that changed people
and the little men far away just wanted to go and start a war
wtf @ 146
Likewise, wtf,, do you have a site where you tell your story? Perhaps Jane or somebody around these parts would like to put them together.
Elliott @ 139
Nah. They don’t want to shut it down; they want to gather and continue to gather more data on us as a predictive tool.
Precursor to precogitive law enforcement; all we need now is a minority report.
solai @ 144
Solai, good analysis.
loo hoo 161
there was an effort, called hereisnewyork.org that was called a democracy of photographs; people from school of visual arts invited anyone who had a camera to contribute; the site is in mothballs now but while it was a live event there was a storefront in soho hung every inch with large format photos; walls were covered, clotheslines had them suspended … i walked in there often after the towers were gone, and i have the book … i am pleased to say my name is one of the several hundred in the back, altho my photos are not in book … but are on the site
http://hereisnewyork.org/
the
ccmask @ 120
ccmask, the Patriot Act’s provisions were “off the shelf” from pre-existing (in the unitary Executive) propsals.
what watertiger@81 and Rayne said…
MarkH @ 152
Interesting question. Asbestos and the Halliboys!
Rayne @ 162
The old school minority report (aka dissent) is in the shredder with Rove’s emails.
The new school minority report has been tasked to Ch*iceP*int who is now making “80% confidence” matches between felons and registered voters.
Woodhall Hollow @ 151
Every story will be different, WH. And they should be documented. Maybe someone here would be interested in putting a book together of everybody’s stories.
Partly for monetary value for the progressive causes? Is that awful?
TribeScribe @ 155
It’s called Cognitive Dissonance
It actually hurts/causes pain. But fear not…the pain fades as you align you perspective with the ‘new truth’.
Lou Costello @ 170
It’s called Cognitive Dissonance
It actually hurts/causes pain. But fear not…the pain fades as you align you perspective with the ‘new truth’.
The highly probable ‘truth’ is painful,
not to mention abhorrent, vile, and wicked,
and thus far unabated.
perhaps this full realization –
and the ambivalence about accepting it –
is the get-outta-jail-free key they’re hoping for.
There won’t be any impeachment cause
people can’t grasp the depth of the treasonous
treacherous fuckery that’s been done to earn it.
TribeScribe, we’re all smart. And opinions can change. Even Faux watching/believing citizens. When I first started blogging because of my discontent with the occupation and rape of the ME, my mom, an extremely intelligent woman (GOP/Fox watcher), would curse at me “you just hate Bush” “you’re pissing on the graves of all our military relatives” and run from the room refusing to talk to me for days sometimes. Little by little she understood I could care less about that man but the US policies were hurting US around the world. When I weaned her off Faux and showed her the news thru the computer, she WOKE UP quick. After about a year she had turned 180 degrees and used to kid me with a sly wink…she wanted a tee shirt that said “What about Building 7?” It’s one of my favorite memories of her. There’s hope for us all. PEACE and God Bless America!
tribescribe
true – explains why the tea-party crowd here tut-tut condescendingly and say “oh such talk, so unmannerly.”
however, pretty good engagement and openmindedness – commendable and respectable.
And respect to Zap at 85, I’m rephrasing with the understanding that you were referring to that elohim city stuff, which is a whole nasty can of worms that overlaps with the Black Helicopter crackers of the 1990’s, that in turn includes moon landing hoax advocates, etc.
so sorry to snap like that – k?
it made me think someone should do some research and compare the rabid rights reaction to OKC and 9/11… they were much more amenable to false flag theories then, weren’t they?
on the other hand, sites like whatreallyhappened.com have the virtue of consistency and beleive both were false flag provocations…
One last FACT…Everything, and I really do mean everything, that this administration
says or has said, is eventually proven to be a LIE! = Remember that whenever they speak.
I agree with the commentary except that Ron Paul’s remark was NOT off-the-mark. Osama bin Laden explicitly identified the 10 years of bombing and sanctions against Iraq as one of the 3 key reasons for the attacks on 9/11. Perhaps you misinterpreted his remark as implying Iraq attacked on 9/11, but he was simply citing material from the official 9/11 report (which Giuliani apparently was never read). Paul, unlike Clinton and Edwards, voted against the Iraq force authorization, which he obviously wouldn’t have done if he thought Iraq was behind the 9/11 attacks.
Wow, what a revealing thread.
See also:
Rudy Giuliani vs. Ron Paul II
http://themoderatevoice.com/po…..e-scoring/
The Ron Paul Internet Dilemma
http://themoderatevoice.com/po…..t-dilemma/
Alex Hammer @ 177
THX for the links. I love what Ron Paul is doing to the ‘norm’. LINK
SLAM! POW! BAM!
Watertiger, you rock!