Well this is good news — it looks like Hillary Clinton's campaign is going after unmarried, unregistered women voters:
"What we have seen everywhere is that women are giving Sen. Clinton anywhere from an 8- to 15-point gender gap advantage, and it's greater among younger women," said Maren Hesla, the Women Vote director at EMILY's List. "For her and for groups like EMILY's List to be able to target unregistered women — to get them registered and mobilized — only adds to her margins." EMILY's List, which backs female candidates who support abortion rights, has endorsed Clinton.
A recent national poll by Quinnipiac University, for example, shows Clinton leading the Democratic primary race with 32 percent. She leads Sen. Barack Obama by 14 points, former Vice President Al Gore by 18 points and former Sen. John Edwards by 20 points, thanks in large part to women voters.
In New Hampshire, the Clinton campaign has invited unregistered women to events with the senator. The campaign also is courting registered women voters, who outnumber male voters in the state by 5 percentage points.
Appealing to unregistered voters is one of the hardest tasks in politics, and it suggests the lengths Clinton is going to find untapped resources and capitalize on her status as a serious woman candidate.
Making the job more challenging, unregistered women tend to be younger, often move around a lot and may be at some economic disadvantage, making it harder for them to find the time to register and vote. But Page Gardner, president of Women's Voices, Women Vote, which tries to get single women involved in politics, said busy women voters could easily make the difference.
"What we have found is that at the end of the day, if you go to them and make it easier for them to register, they will," Gardner said. "If you talk about their lives, that's motivational. They're incredibly civic-minded. They care a lot about this country. They know they should register, they know they should vote."
Registering unmarried women voters is something that we've been pushing actively here for a long time. In 2000, 22 million unmarried eligible women voters didn’t vote. That is a group that favored John Kerry 2-1 over George Bush. According to polling done by Greenberg Quinlan Rossner following the 2004 election:
- Unmarried women are social and economic progressives advancing a tolerant set of values. They believe government should play a role in providing affordable health care, a secure retirement, equal pay, and education opportunities for themselves and their children. They support a woman’s right to choose and gay rights, including marriage.
- Unmarried women were strongly opposed to the war in Iraq. They believe that the Bush Administration’s pursuit of the war made America less safe, not more
secure. This is the opposite conclusion from that drawn by many blue-collar voters. - Unmarried voters, and unmarried women in particular, represent a source for enormous growth and support for those with a progressive agenda that speaks to the issues of importance to them.
- Unmarried women held a set of progressive values that stood in clear contrast to those prompted by the Bush campaign. Instead of being swayed by the culture wars and issues such as abortion and gay marriage, unmarried women were polarized by them. They found President Bush’s cultural values to be another reason it was imperative to elect a different candidate to the highest office; they wanted a candidate who shared their priorities and views of America. While unmarried and married women alike voiced doubts about the Bush Administration’s policies in Iraq (36 and 31 percent, respectively) and the economy, such as the tax cuts to the wealthy (28 and 24 percent, respectively), unmarried women were more likely than married women to be concerned with President Bush’s stance on women’s rights, including abortion (20 percent versus 12 percent for married women).
- Progressivism takes many forms — belief in an active role for government in economic policies, a multilateral worldview, and, attitudes toward social policies. As focus groups have shown, unmarried women cherish their rights as women, especially their right to choose. Unmarried women did not take kindly to the culture wars of 2004.
- Like the economy and foreign policy, choice is another issue where unmarried women seek a more progressive agenda. Exit polls show that unmarried women were more likely than married women to support legalized abortion (60 percent versus 51 percent). Also, as previously noted, it was a hot button issue more likely to affect the vote of unmarried than of married women; 20 percent of all unmarried women cited women’s rights as a reason not to vote for President Bush, versus only 12 percent of all married women.
And how will this decision to court unmarried women mesh with Mark Penn's roll as chief Clinton pollster? Penn is noted for his penchant for finding polling results that match opinions he is predisposed to. In a DLC forum held shortly after the 2000 battle in Florida (helpfully entitled "Why Gore Lost and What's Next for the Democrats,") Penn concluded:
The DLC line on the election is that Al Gore ran too far to the left, associating himself with big government and class warfare rather than with the successful, centrist Clinton administration and the New Economy. Mark Penn, the DLC's pollster, put some flesh on those bones in his opening presentation. According to Penn, Gore won on most specific issues. Three exceptions were guns, taxes, and abortion. Penn's finding on abortion is particularly useful because the networks stopped asking the most relevant question on the subject, viz., among voters for whom it was a top issue, which candidate won? Penn's poll showed that among the 7 percent of voters who cared deeply about abortion, George W. Bush took 61 percent of the votes and Gore 30 percent — pretty much keeping with the pattern of the previous two decades. (That makes for a net pick-up of 2.2 percentage points for Bush.) Penn thinks the issue helped Gore, however, among upper-class women, although the data he presented were not on point. (That data showed that women's support for abortion rose with income, but not how that support affected their votes.)
More important, though, was that Gore "lost on the broader meta-themes." Bush was seen as being to the left of his party — and so was Gore. On a scale in which 1 is the left pole and 9 the right, the average voter rated himself a 5.42 (slightly to the right of center). Gore was 1.5 points to the left of this average, Bush 1.06 to the right of it. Moreover, Gore's "people vs. the powerful" theme flopped badly among the voters who rallied to Bush in the last month. Gore's populist campaign hurt him among white males while merely matching Bill Clinton's performance among liberals. It also kept him from capitalizing on public contentment: Gore's margin among voters who thought the country was on the right track was 15 points lower than Clinton's in 1996.
Not surprisingly, Steve Rosenthal, political director of the AFL-CIO, disagreed with almost everything in Penn's analysis — including his premise. "I'm not convinced that Al Gore lost," he said, although he was willing to concede that Bush had taken the oath of office this weekend.
In other words — Gore lost because he was too populist, the only ones who care about abortion vote for Republicans and George Bush legitimately won the 2000 election.
I don't really know how these conclusions can focus a campaign that can speak to unmarried women. Six years have passed in the interim and Penn's views may have changed, but given his role as a big union buster, one would imagine his progressive bona fides could use a little refinement.



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ZeD☼
Hi Jane!
Hi Jane. I see you are doing well. Hope you keep getting stronger every day. What’s with Hillary and unmarried women? thought she needed to get soccer moms and NASCAR dads. are there enough to give her a margin of victory?
Hey Jane!
hey gang
Hi Jane – I LOVE the picture.
Somewhat OT, but I wanted to bring this up at an early point in a new thread: I just found out that Democrats swept every seat in Dallas County on Saturday. It is being called the Dallas Miracle. I will look for more info and will post it when I find it.
If we could tap into that demographic even a bit, it would go a long way into dissipating the effects of the 28%ers.
Hey Jane, hope this finds you feeling well :)
That photo reminds me of my big sister taunting me 42 years ago!!!
TiredFed @ 3
They would have been enough to give Kerry the margin of victory. Any Democrat who isn’t courting them, trying to register them, is a fool. We’ve been trying to push NARAL to register them but Nancy Keenan is too busy looting on Alito’s back.
The trouble is, less then 50 percent of newly-registered voters actually show up and vote in the first election after they register.
When George Bush in 2000 said he would reduce mercury pollution in the air from coal fired electric plants, I was very hopeful. Of course, then two weeks after he takes office he changes his mind. I never trusted him since then.
Hugs to Jane!
Wingnuts attacking at the end previous thread.
Is that you in the picture, Jane?
Rollo @ 11
But from the other point of view, 50 percent of newly-registered voters become voters.
Hi Jane! Hope you are feeling reasonable well today (as with everyday)!
Of course, if Hillary goes out of her way to try to register the unmarried women and single mothers, that means that KKKarl and his minions will be forced to come up with new strategeries to suppress the votes. Prol’ly something along the lines of the 19th amendment not being real cuz it’s only a piece of paper after all…
I am not able to establish a link to any of the Dallas County sites. But the e-mail I got said that prior to Saturday’s election only two of the 47 seats (judges, jp’s, etc) were held by Democrats (which is the way it was when I lived there) after Saturday’s election, Democrats held all 47 slots!
hi all. i think more young people of both genders should be registered, and encouraged to vote.
OT-Selise, if you’re still here, thank you, thank you, thank you, for posting the audio of the hearing this morning. I missed it live, so this will be the only way to listen to it.
*smooches and hugs* FDL rules!
corry342 @ 15
And some of the other 50% may become voters in the following election.
Rollo @ 11
Yes, but 40%, even 30%, of 22 million is a helluva a lot of votes. Pick your percentage!
In my former life as a marketer, fishing in an unfished, yet nicely-predisposed, pond was often considered a good idea. You don’t have to fight against existing brand loyalty to competitors or negative perceptions of your own brand. Another metaphor: it’s more of a push vs inertia than rolling a rock uphill.
I’ve often watched political “marketing” and shaken my head. It really seems like these entrenched consultants just keep talking to themselves and doing the same ol’ stupid s**t over ‘n over again.
TheOtherWA @ 19
I am still listening to it as well from that link.
Thanks for covering this, Jane. I’d tried hard to press locally for a “Wash that Man Out of Your Hair” event with progressive hairdressers this past fall, but couldn’t pull it off, need more organization in advance. One thing we women share in common is our hairdressers, who can hold us captive and persuade us to vote while they wash and cut our hair. Would still like to try this approach and aim towards the young, single women on campus here, get them registered and get them involved.
On the face of it, using Penn to figure out how to get to women is ridiculous; Clinton ought to just spend time talking with women. How hard is that? Mark Penn is increasingly proving to be a mistake for Clinton; I don’t know how I’m supposed to trust her management acumen as President when I can’t trust her acumen as a candidate. Gore relied on DLC-type consultantocracy in 2000, and look what that got him: a margin that could be messed with, instead of a blow-out.
Gnome de Plume @ 17
Wow I can’t imagine what will happen there now, wow!!!
Unmarried women is a group somebody better go after. They could make the difference with just a little encouragement.
The reason given why most people don’t vote is that a la Ralph Nadir (misspelling intentional) they don’t think it makes a difference. George Bush has changed all that. We just need to show the non-voters how close he has brought us to total destruction.
Elizabeth Edwards has begun a campaign to help empower ALL women, I sent this to my (4) sisters, and I hope many others read it…
(LINK)
TheOtherWA @ 25
Especially if Hillary can get them excited about her programs for women and children. I know she has a bunch in mind, with her passion about the subject, but she has to compete against the “guys” right now, too, and so has to attend to more “serious” issues.
Gnome de Plume @ 17
YIPPIE!
But the Orthodox position is still “It’s all Nader’s fault”, right?
Who was Gore’s VP again? Lieberman? Name rings a bell around here, doesn’t it? He sure was a big help to the ticket, wasn’t he?
TheOtherWA @ 19
you are most welcome! please feel free to cross post (bandwith!) and use the mp3 audio in any way to spread the word on this important hearing. i’m still pissed at c-span for not carrying it.
p.s. if you are using itunes, i put the hearing info in the lyrics tag.
I dislike the DLC. And will vote for Clinton if the Senator is the nominee of my party. I will not vote for the Senator in the Democratic primaries.
I am pleased with any Democrat going after any voter. Especially low income women. Or for that matter, any potential female voter. And I am particularly pleased with any Deomocrat who has, and shows, spine. I do not appreciate batteries of consultants and triangulators.
Jane Hamsher says:
“Six years have passed in the interim and Penn’s views may have changed, but given his role as a big union buster, one would imagine his progressive bona fides could use a little refinement.”
“Democratic” isn’t synonymous with “progressive”; his corporate “bona-fides” are good enough for the party.
While it’s encouraging to know there is an another underrepresented slice of the Democrats can go after to register, it’s little solace that Hillary Clinton and Penn are the ones doing it. How, in the end, can Clinton’s support for this war jibe with the kind of progressive agenda unmarried women would vote for?
Romney on Falwell:
McCain on Falwell:
CNN
And not to brag (too much) but one of the Dallas mayoral candidates in the run off I know personally – Ed Oakley. I worked with him on South Dallas (poor Dallas) revitalization and inner city preservation work. He even came to one of my college classes as a guest speaker, (I was the prof, not a student, silly.) So double wow.
This is how dangerous this religious right is:
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/….._0514.html
I disagreee with the relevance of the DLC forum held in late 2000 on “Why Gore lost,” because Gore lost neither the popular nor the electoral election. The election was STOLEN, pure and simple. Mostly by the disenfranchisement or refusal to count the votes of scores of thousands of African-Americans in Florida.
The most important issue facing the soul of the future of the Democratic Party in several states has to do more with the party’s continuing refusal to do EVERYTHING IT CAN to enfranchise African-Americans and other minority voters. Candidates can pay a thousand pollsters and campaign staff to align themselves so as to gain a few more single women to vote for them, but what we need to really do is maximize efforts to enfranchise the hundreds of thousands – if not a million – of disenfranchised minority voters. Especially in the key states of Georgia, Florida, Missouri, Ohio and New Mexico.
I’ll take Gore, Edwards, Kucinich, Garavel and others over Clinton any day.
Sorry Mr. Gravel. Typo.
sporkovat @ 30
I heard a rumor thast JFK JR. was Gore’s original choice for VP…
Makes one wonder what would have happened if Gore had been victorious. Elephant Joe was certainly in line for a Dallas-style “promotion”…
More ridiculous conspiracy theories for the paranoid among us. But before she died of ALS, my mother always told me “when they call you paranoid, they’re probably out to get you…”
Well, I’m leaving… and FDL’s grudgies will all be glad for it.
Gnome de Plume @ 7
Holy. Crap.
That IS good news!
more OT on comey testimony this morning – marty lederman has the transcript!!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 38
Clinton will mobilize the wingnuts like no one else, even their own candidates. At this time, the Nation cannot afford another Republic President. Clinton is really scary becasue of that.
OK – back to the importance of women voting. The key to bringing a society up to its potential and fixing its ills is dependent on women. To repeat myself from a few days back: Al Gore reminded us at the AIA convention that this change requires four things: Women’s education, Women’s literacy, women’s access to health care and women’s access to family planning.
Damn the DLC!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 32
I’m with you OKK. I will hold my nose and vote for Hillary (mind you, I still have a picture of her husband in my office). At this point, I would prefer John Edwards (heck, I would prefer one of those fired US Attorneys). But I will never vote for a Republican. Never have, never will.
Probably true, but isn’t a new voter energized to register by a particular candidate likely to be a more probable voter, a more loyal voter, and a more opinion-leading voter? In other words, once the hard work of appealing to and registering the unregistered voter is done, hasn’t a campaign created a voter very likely to seek out her polling place, very likely to trumpet her new voter status and her candidate preference to friends, and very likely to bring more non-voters into the voting fold?
I have no stats to back this up, but anecdotally, does it make sense? Other campaigns should watch this Clinton effort very carefully — the campaign will create committed, loyal, prosletyzing new voters.
Unless Penn & his men derail the whole thing, of course….
and I’m thinking John Edwards (and of course Al Gore) could do a far better job of getting younger single women to register and vote Democratic than Hillary.
Clinton is sooo plugged into the DLC. And the “Third Way”. U.S. Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton is chair of the DLC’s American Dream Initiative.
also over at raw story -
raw story
I think I said this in an earlier thread, too: As much as I want a woman president, I don’t think this is the right time for Hillary because of the wingnut right. We have to stomp them out dead before she can be president, as she would be spending too much of her time batting flying monkeys out of the air, and not enough time fixing the last eight years of mess.
SCHUMER: Do you have any idea who that call was from?
COMEY: I have some recollection that the call was from the president himself, but I don’t know that for sure. It came from the White House. And it came through and the call was taken in the hospital. So I hung up the phone, immediately called my chief of staff, told him to get as many of my people as possible to the hospital immediately. I hung up, called Director Mueller and — with whom I’d been discussing this particular matter and had been a great help to me over that week — and told him what was happening. He said, “I’ll meet you at the hospital right now.” Told my security detail that I needed to get to George Washington Hospital immediately. They turned on the emergency equipment and drove very quickly to the hospital. I got out of the car and ran up — literally ran up the stairs with my security detail.
SCHUMER: What was your concern? You were in obviously a huge hurry.
COMEY: I was concerned that, given how ill I knew the attorney general was, that there might be an effort to ask him to overrule me when he was in no condition to do that.
SCHUMER: Right, OK.
COMEY: I was worried about him, frankly. And so I raced to the hospital room, entered. And Mrs. Ashcroft was standing by the hospital bed, Mr. Ashcroft was lying down in the bed, the room was darkened. And I immediately began speaking to him, trying to orient him as to time and place, and try to see if he could focus on what was happening, and it wasn’t clear to me that he could. He seemed pretty bad off.
Why does Bloomberg think he should be president? Because he can write a check for a billion dollars?
cbl @ 50
Imagine what Bill Gates could spend if he wanted to run.
cbl @ 50
haha. heard last night that Hagel met with Bloomberg about an Independent run.
TiredFed @ 48
Given that their positions jibe much closer with what unmarried single women care about and want to hear, I think you may well be right. Wish they would.
How come it is that I feel the DLC is dictating to me (us) who the nominee will be. Gee whiz… I don’t have a clue.
cbl @ 50
Oh, goody! He’ll take away enough of Rudy’s base to guarantee that even Hillary could win.
Please please PLEASE enter the race, Michael! And start burning off a few million on campaign ads right now! Don’t believe those silly people telling you that running ads this early is a waste of money.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 49
It’s exactly why I’d have a hard time voting for her in the primary. She is still wed to the DLC. Edwards appears to have repudiated his past membership. Obama, while not officially a member, is still shown on their website(although they’ve tried to hide any remaining traces). Here is the Obama link:
http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cf…..;subid=210
It appears Gore has repudiated his DLC past as well, unless the DLC has jumped aboard with his global warming campaign. I can’t stand the DLC. They just sell out the little guy.
selise @ 42
Thanks so much for this link, selise. Comey’s testimony equally impressive reading the transcript as it was live…
good. HRC inspires millions to register, and they then go on to vote for the eventual not-HRC Dem nominee in the general election.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 57
Because they have a lot of corporate money behind them. That is why. We need more George Soros types. Hell, Warren Buffet is pretty damn progressive in his politics, he just isn’t free with his money as far as politics go.
Gore/Edwards. What a winning combo! These guys would attract the young voter too. Women and men.
Jane Hamsher @ 56
I’m thinking that’s why Edwards had Amanda Marcotte and Melissa McEwan working for him, until the Donohue Flying Monkey Attack hit.
Phoenix Woman @ 58 says:
Please please PLEASE enter the race, Michael! And start burning off a few million on campaign ads right now! Don’t believe those silly people telling you that running ads this early is a waste of money.
I saw somewhere yesterday or today a story on a poll from the city where Bloomberg trounces Rudy as to which was/is the better mayor and would be a better Preznit. Can’t recall exactly where
punaise @ 61
Are you predicting a brokered convention?
How, exactly, does a non-Hillary nominee emerge from a process dominated by newly registered Hillary voters?
Recall the disillusion in 1968 when newly energized voters were presented with a “consensus” Establishment nominee – HHH.
Froomkin finally up. “McNulty gets Knife in the Back”
Froomkin
Snark alert…
While Hillary courts single unmarried women, Newsweek satirist reports GOP still courting the “elusive white male”. ha!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18…../newsweek/
It’s even better accompanied by a cover story on “The mystery of gender”.
On a related note, I happened to see a new hardback book about women and politics, “If They Only Listened To Us: What Women Voters Want Politicians to Hear,” by Melinda Henneberger, a Newsweek contributing editor (and former Slate/NYT writer), who contends that there are zillions of women out there (well, at least based on her statistically valid and representative sample of women she talked to) who are pining for Democrats, but won’t vote for them because Democrats are too strident on abortion.
Despite Katrina. Despite Iraq. Despite economic policy. The women Henneberger found wanted Democrats to restrict their reproductive freedom (I’m waiting on tenterhooks for her sequel, about Carhart II, praising Anthony Kennedy for knowing “What Women Really Want”) and *then* they’ll be able to vote for Democrats. Also, Democrats shouldn’t say anything less than nice about Republicans.
Oh, and on a totally unrelated note, she’s done some writing for Commonweal magazine, including articles about Colorado’s pro-life Democratic governor, Bill Ritter (gosh, I wonder what angle that could have), and a book review of “The Theocons: Secular America Under Siege”), which has the title “Be Not Afraid” – so I guess we really shouldn’t worry about any of this.
I think “Henneberger” might be Scandinavian for “Friedman”, actually. Or is there anyone who’s even more of a concern troll for the left generally? I hope nobody on Hillary’s campaign – or that of anyone trying to win any actual female voters’ votes – takes this shit seriously. Because my impression is that if this is what Henneberger thinks women want, then they should be really, really happy with the way things are, with Republicans screwing up the country, and Democrats helping them limit choice rights.
Why, pretty soon those women won’t have to worry their pretty little heads about any of these things… (/sarcasm)
TSF – just wishful thinking on my part, resisting the HRC juggernaut.
BTW, I’m holding out for Gore.
A huge number of principled progressives, who despised the war from the beginning, not just after Bush botched it and polls made it safe to oppose it (verbally) would NEVER vote for Hillary Clinton, myself included.
If the DLC manages to get her in as nominee, the unfortunate (D) party could manage to snatch defeat from the jaws of almost certain victory because of her very high negatives on both ends of the political spectrum.
Jane (nyc) @ 67
Gee Abu is suddenly SO forthcoming. Look at all those recollections–in print and stuff!
dakine01 @ 65
I saw somewhere yesterday or today a story on a poll from the city where Bloomberg trounces Rudy as to which was/is the better mayor and would be a better Preznit. Can’t recall exactly where
KO said so last night.
LOL, Froomkin is up. I love the title: McNulty gets knife in back.
Jane Hamsher @ 56
Latest Edwards Email
I am so proud that today in Iowa, John is announcing the launch of our new group: Women for Edwards. Women from across the country—elected officials, community leaders, workers, political activists, mothers, daughters, sisters—have added their voices to the campaign.
Today, I’m asking you to join us. Please help me by sending this email on to your sister, your mother, a friend or any woman you know who might be interested in joining our campaign. Tell them the news about Women for Edwards, and let them know we need their voice.
Here’s the link to sign up:
http://www.johnedwards.com/women
For John and me, this campaign has always been primarily about the people who the campaign, and ultimately an Edwards administration, can reach and help. In fact the name of the group—if it wasn’t too unwieldy—could be Women for Women (for Edwards).
This campaign has always had at its core the issues about which women feel passionately, and therefore it is no surprise to me that women are drawn to this campaign—both because of the emphasis on the real issues and John’s commitment to improving the lives of women and families.
John’s clear focus on the key issues that affect women’s lives during the campaign gives us all confidence that he will prioritize these same issues as President. I’m talking about things like:
Raising the minimum wage which currently disproportionately disadvantages hard-working women
Guaranteeing every American quality health care with a program that does not wait but addresses this stress on American families now so that every woman, every child gets the medical attention she needs
Making college more affordable and helping Americans save which dramatically affects the bottom line in many women’s lives
And women, like all Americans, desire to create a better world for our families by supporting the troops and ending the war in Iraq, taking a better, long-term approach to defusing radical extremism that fuels terrorism, and by stopping global warming so that the current alarming trends do not become an environmental free-fall that our children will not be able to halt.
Getting this election right is so important to women. Can you use this as an opportunity to reach out and find one woman you know who shares these values and ask her to join us? Can you find one woman who is not involved, help her register to vote and talk to her about John’s campaign—a campaign dedicated to improving her life?
http://www.johnedwards.com/women
I’m glad that we’re in this together.
Sincerely,
–Elizabeth Edwards
Tuesday, May 15, 2007
amen Phoenix Woman !
dakine01 – that poll was over at HuffPo on sunday
HuffPo
TJ – guess Jane’s wish just got granted.
Coincidentally(?), I just received this today from the John Edwards campaign, from Edwards’ wife:
Bob in HI
A change in the polls from the redest part of AR.
Info and poll via AR Times blog
It shows 53.1 percent believe the Iraq war was a mistake and that 57.4 percent favor bringing troops home in the next year.
Only 37 percent, even in yellow-dog Republicanland, want to stay the course.
It is for me… not a matter of practicality why I want a Democrat, other than Senator Clinton to be the next president. It is an issue of principle.
Thanks TSF and cbl. I knew I wasn’t TOTALLY hallucinating. Haven’t had the drugs for it in a long while and never was much for the so-called flashbacks…though it wasn’t for lack of trying… ;})
Edwards, absent a Gore run, is my choice.
To me, it seems to be way to soon to be committing to any candidate. And the fact that everything seems to be about how much money they can raise is troubling.
I’d rather see the candidates represent themselves with their actions in their present jobs.
Eureka Springs @ 79
I wonder how the Bush family would poll on this. Of course, I’m not sure any of them trouble their beautiful minds with the affairs of commoners.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 80
It is, for me, both a matter of practicality (she will lose) and principle (primarily because of her continuing stance on the “war” on terror, Iraq and seemingly the rest of the world along with George Bush), that I would prefer ANY Democratic candidate other than Hillary Clinton, despite the fact that her husband was the best President I have had the privilege of working for so far (from the best to the Worst President Ever). We can’t afford another Republican Presidency, unless we have veto-proof majorities in both houses of Congress.
Important off topic news from ThinkProgress: Gonzales misses deadline to submit Rove emails
OT- Sloppiness in the NYTimes article on Comey testimony? I thought he said almost the opposite of this–that he went ahead preparing to resign DESPITE the Madrid bombings (on the 11th, not 12th). Or did I misunderstand?
NYT: “Mr. Comey said today that he intended to resign the next day, March 12. But on that day, terrorists carried out deadly train bombings in Madrid, and he put his plans on hold.”
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 86
Running out the clock continues before our very eyes.
Comey:
“And a week before that March 11th deadline, I had a private meeting with the attorney general for an hour, just the two of us, and I laid out for him what we had learned and what our analysis was in this particular matter.
And at the end of that hour-long private session, he and I agreed on a course of action. And within hours he was stricken and taken very, very ill…”
OT There is an infestation of trolls at the end of the last thread which is already 350 plus comments long.
TJ @ 75
I went through the rest of Elizabeth Edwards’ message you pasted. Good stuff. But, again, tangential to what I brought up in #37 above, the Democrats as a party, and none of the candiates – including Obama – has made a major effort to demand the enfranchisement of disenfranchised minority voters. Aren’t there still about 70,000 African-Americans and Latinos in Florida alone who were illegally purged from the voter roles over the past seven years, who haven’t been re-registered? Aren’t other swing states undergoing similar GOP-led “voter purges”? Don’t we now know how deeply involved in this the WH is?
Cuewhiffle @ 87
from the transcript:
Can you tell us what happened the next day?
COMEY: The program was reauthorized without us and without a
signature from the Department of Justice attesting as to its legality.
And I prepared a letter of resignation, intending to resign the next
day, Friday, March the 12th.
SCHUMER: OK.
And that was the day, as I understand it, of the Madrid train bombings.
COMEY: Thursday, March 11th, was the morning of the Madrid train bombings.
SCHUMER: And so, obviously, people were very concerned with all of that.
COMEY: Yes. It was a very busy day in the counterterrorism aspect.
SCHUMER: Yet, even in light of that, you still felt so strongly that you drafted a letter of resignation.
COMEY: Yes.
SCHUMER: OK.
And why did you decide to resign?
COMEY: I just believed…
SCHUMER: Or to offer your resignation, is a better way to put it?
COMEY: I believed that I couldn’t — I couldn’t stay, if the
administration was going to engage in conduct that the Department of Justice had said had no legal basis. I just simply couldn’t stay.
http://balkin.blogspot.com/200…..ident.html
OT – Leahy has another hearing next Tuesday on habeus corpus. wonder who will show up for that?
The topic of whether Gore would have gotten more votes had he moved further to the right is an interesting one- I’m not sure how such a thing could be settled. My gut is that he would NOT have gotten more votes. Bush was running as a moderate- although he turned out to be anything but. I don’t think that the 2000 campaign was centered on political ideology. It was an odd campaign- one that most people wished wasn’t even happening.
John Edwards/Wesley Clark.
You saw it here first.
OT – This could work out: Bush resigns because the Lord has suddenly called him to be the head of Liberty University.
Thanks, Selise. I wonder if the sloppy (to use a kind euphemism) NYT article will make it into the print edition as is.
Gnome de Plume @ 51
I agree on both counts. Though I’m sure Hillary would be a MUCH better president than Bush, she might not get the chance; she is so polarizing that she would be used by the right to mobilize wingnuts who otherwise might not have voted.
Edwards/Clark.
Gore for UN Ambassador.
RFK Jr. for AG.
Richard Clarke head of DHS.
Stil putting together the rest.
Hugh @ 90
I’m not sure what you mean by troll.
Is that anyone who doesn’t agree with you?
RonD @ 95
Or vice versa.
OT but get this. Tony Snow about the hospital visit. “Because he’d had an appendectomy his brain didn’t work?”
Ed*ard Teller,
from the Edwards site -
so I faxed them 2 pages of info on the 70K Floridians, and all I could find about so called “caging” efforts – begging them to speak out and bring more attention to this issue – at least call KKKarl out on his fraud
he seems to be speaking so much more freely than any of the other 08 ers – am hoping he will bring it up
Hugh @ 90
I’d leave it alone. It’s like a fire – cut off the oxygen supply and it will burn itself out.
Cuewhiffle @ 96
another edition of the NYT publishing something that is factually correct, while giving the impression of something that is completely false.
OT – Vote on Feingold-Reid Iraq bill expected tomorrow morning.
dmoore @ 100
I don’t think so. If you read their comments, these trolls are not on here to promote intelligent disagreement. They’re here to parade the insufferable smuggery of their brain dead convictions.
I do find it interesting that Falwell’s death brought such an infestation of them, because they are usually few and far between on this site, AFIK. Guess they’re looking for slander fodder…..
Chetnolian @ 102
Painkillers and anesthesia meds can cause memory problems and affect cognition. This is why key personnel with high security clearances have an escort when they have to have surgery.
I love the way Mr. Snow just blows off major abdominal surgery, considering he was just there himself. I have friends that have had both gallstones and pancreatitis, and having seen how debilitating these are, I wouldn’t wish them on my worst enemy.
Mr. Ashcroft would have been treated with major narcotics for the pain. I’d be very surprised that his brain worked at all under those circumstances!
randiego @ 104
just dont let it break through to later threads. bless our mods!
dmoore @ 100
The entity in question was indulging in ad hominem attacks on commenters, solely because the commenters did not align with their thinking.
That’s trolling, and at many sites it’s ban-worthy behavior.
OT but funny:
Saint Bush
President George W. Bush was scheduled to visit the
Episcopal Church outside Washington as part of his
campaign to restore his poll standings. Bush’s campaign
manager made a visit to the Bishop, and said to him,
“We’ve been getting a lot of bad publicity because of
the president’s position on stem cell research, the
Iraq war, Katrina, wiretapping and the like. We’d
gladly make a contribution to the church of $100,000
if during your sermon you’d say the President is a
saint.”
The Bishop thought it over for a few moments and
finally said, “The Church is in desperate need of
funds and I will agree to do it.”
Bush showed up for the sermon and the Bishop began:
“I’d like to speak to you all this morning about our
President. “George Bush is a liar, a cheat, and a
low-intelligence weasel. He took the tragedy of
September 11 and used it to frighten and manipulate
the American people. He lied about weapons of mass
destruction and invaded Iraq for oil and money,
causing the deaths of tens of thousands and making the
United States the most hated country on earth.
He appointed cronies to positions of power and
influence, leading to widespread death and destruction
during Hurricane Katrina. He awarded contracts and tax
cuts to his rich friends so that we now have more
poverty in this country, and a greater gap between
rich and poor, than we’ve had since the Depression. He
instituted illegal wiretaps when getting a warrant
from a secret court would have been a mere
administrative detail, had his henchmen lie to
Congress about it, then claimed he is above the law.
He has headed the most corrupt, bribe-inducing
political party since Teapot Dome.
The national surplus has turned into a staggering
national debt of $17.6 trillion, gas prices are up
85%, and vital research into global warming and stem
cells is stopped cold because he’s afraid to lose
votes from some religious kooks. He is the worst
example of a true Christian I’ve ever known.
“But compared to Dick Cheney and Karl Rove, George W.
Bush is a saint.”
is there a difference between a “concern troll” and a plain old nasty, warty troll?
Hillary’s union problem
Hillary Clinton’s top adviser is also the CEO of a company that advises corporations on how to bust unions. Organised labour, anyone home?
http://commentisfree.guardian……oblem.html
Ed*ard Teller @ 37
Just a small disagreement here: Gore “lost” because he ran (1) an inept campaign; (2) in believe it or not fashion he was outdebated by Bush; (3) Gore is even more of a spoiled rich kid than Bush: (4) the playing field of two rich inept prep school kids running for President defined the level of scutiny for these two flakes.
Perhaps there should be a new term for Gore supporters, “system conformists” or “syscons”
The syscons will also support the Clintons and Kerry and Gore and Tenet (Clintons appointment) and the rest of these waste of time people. Sorry to be angry but we need to do much much better than the Clintons and Gore, etc. and the syscons.
oddmommy @ 112
Only in strategy used in posting — the regular troll is nasty and easily spotted, while the concern troll is trying to look sympathetic. Admittedly, the latter takes a little more work.
“SCHUMER: OK.
And that was the day, as I understand it, of the Madrid train bombings.
COMEY: Thursday, March 11th, was the morning of the Madrid train bombings.
SCHUMER: And so, obviously, people were very concerned with all of that.”
When I heard the tone of Schumer’s voice, I wondered where he was going with this.
oddmommy @ 112
Concern troll affects to be thinking of our “welfare and well-being” while the plain old nasty, warty troll just insults and calls us idiots.
An example of Concern Troll in media is all the Redubyacan campaign consultants who tell us the Dems will lose if we “overreach” with investigations and such. I.E. they are just SO concerned about how the Dems will do that they HAVE to consul us and save us from our lesser and more evil selves. [/snark]
oddmommy @ 107
I can’t say that I read every comment here…there are a lot, but…
I did see a lot of Names that I see here a lot who were just saying, it’s probably not a good idea to judge each other.
So, again, what constitutes a troll?
They’re here to parade the insufferable smuggery of their brain dead convictions.
Yikes! I’m like you, sister. Smug never does it for me.
From either side of the aisle/heart/paycheck
Oddmommy – leftdcin72 comes across as a concern troll @114.
Rayne @ 110
I was partly reacting to
OT There is an infestation of trolls
so how does one entity become an infestation?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 38
If HRC is trotted out as the Dem candidate, the Republicans and Rudy G will have the most overwhelming victory ever recorded in a General Election.
She is despised so thoroughly by middle and right of middle America that it’s IMPOSSIBLE for her to win. Couple that with the fact that most who voted for her husband WON’T vote for her, and it’s a landslide win for Intelligent Design, the dissolution of public schools and brown shirts for everyone.
I think it’s great that Hillary is going after the unmarried woman’s vote and may start a strong campaign to get them registered. I just hope that it won’t be her that they get the chance to vote for. There is no doubt that this demo can be a big tipping point for any Dem candidate.
Just slightly O/T, until I got remarried I spent a good decade and a half going after unmarried women myself. It wasn’t always that easy.
Re: single women voters. I think single women really object to nasty, mud-slinging campaigns. That kind of politics turns them off so much that they feel discouraged and don’t bother to vote.
Of course, I don’t know which voters, other than neanderthal rightwingers, actually *like* nasty, mud-slinging campaigns.
Seems like a lot of OT comments on this post
Issues about women seem to be easily sidetracked.
Other things suddently become more interesting and needing comment.
Not passing judgement…. just wonderin’…..
Joel Mael
OT to MoShep
“I got remarried I spent a good decade and a half going after unmarried women myself. It wasn’t always that easy.”
Shoulda taken dance lessons. Right, Donita?
dakine01 @ 117
Good analogy dakine.
Like when Rs say “we have to stop yelling at each other (now that we lost the majority) and return civility (lack of oversight) to the political discourse (GOP agenda).
This is usually delivered with a condescending shake of the head, perhaps a tsk,tsk or two.
Morris Sheppard @ 122
tsk tsk. u should have gone after the married ones. or the newly unmarried ones.
Israeli General Oded Tira, “We must turn to Hillary Clinton … for support to attack Iran.”
(((( Attack Iran )))
Oklahoma kiddo @ 38
Agreed
but I’d take Hillary over any of the R field running today.
Full Disclosure:
If an actual liberaterian fiscal conservative ran against Clinton, I would have to think about it.
On voting suppression – the Texas Lege is trying to pass Karl’s dream voting rules which directly affects people who move often – they would have to show a birth certificate or other evidence of citizenship every time they try to update their registration.
Ed*ard Teller @ 91
Very good point, ET. I posted the email only because we were talking about women, but that does not lessen the importance of any other group.
O/T I looked through the comment prepared to eliminate a zig, but didn’t find it. I hope I’m right.
Badwater @ 97
How long will it take for Liberty to be renamed Falwell University, do you suppose?
Some people have concluded that Mr. Gore ‘lost’ because of the efforts of James Baker, the Bush family, Katherine Harris, Karl Rove and the Supreme Court.
cbl @ 103
I doubt the DLC has spent any more time trying to enfranchise these Democrats than the time it took them to decide that advocating for the poor and the dark-skinned was not in the DLC’s best interests.
OT, from salon.com:
In terms of the Middle East, Hillary is a hawk.
retirin’ in five @ 125
Actually, I dance really quite well. Ask anybody.
About as long as it takes paint to dry in the hot sun would be my guess.
I do not think that the DLC or Hillary care much what those left of center think.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 136
I will not vote for Hillary. Ever.
do-si-do @ 126
Joe Lieberman, King of Concern Trolls.
Coming down the florida turnpike the other day, I noticed that right after you pay the toll, the road has now been designated the Ronald Reagan Highway. God bless America.
oddmommy @ 141
HoJo
Yesss…
Badwater! That’s it! Bush as president of Liberty–and he can take his !@#$%^&* Bush presidential library and policy center with him. Except that a GWB policy center is an oxymoron (with emphasis on the moron).
TiredFed @ 127
Well, I didn’t say I had no success now, did I? And yes, the newly unmarried were a goldmine, but I always had some moral reluctance to get involved with those who were already involved.
cc
Better than drivin in Dallas and suddenly discoverin that yer on the George Bush freeway!!!YIKES!!
Bustednuckles @ 138
If the place had to stand on its own two feet, instead of being propped up by Sun Myung Moon and his ilk, it would once again be headed toward the bankruptcy it so fully merits. Then we could use Howie Klein’s considerable fundraising skills, buy it, and re-name it Firedoglake University.
leftdcin72 @ 114
Gore lost because of voter supression in Florida which resulted in a stolen election. The idea that somehow a Democrat must win by enough votes to withstand Republican attempts to steal the election says more about the corrupt electoral system we have than Al Gore.
Gore was not out debated by Bush. Inanities of Bush went unquestioned by the media while Gore was slammed for even things he did not say.
I thought that the only person who could see no difference between Gore and Bush was Ralph Nader. I stand corrected but if you think that this country would be in the same sad shape it is now under an Al Gore Presidency, then you really aren’t thinking.
ccmask @ 142
So can they now take his name off the freeway between San Fernando and Simi Valley? (Not that anyone around here uses the name. The only time I’ve heard it called the ‘Ronald Reagan Freeway’ was the day of his funeral. And only that day.)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 133
to be outmaneuvered by that crowd is a damn embarassment
My three kids are in their early 20’s and my daughters are backing Hillary – but not nearly as vehemently as their brother. He and his friends are very vocal in supporting Hillary, and not just to “get Bill back in the White House where he belongs.”
My theory? (and it’s worth what you paid for it) They were raised by strong women who brooked no foolishness and never apologized for being smart. She doesn’t scare them. She raised them.
rwcole @ 147
Or turning off the GW Parkway onto Dolley Madison Boulevard in McLean, Virginia, only to be confronted by signs announcing “The George Bush Center for Intelligence” as you arrive at the entrance to the CIA.
rwcole @ 146
Yes, I would go out of my way to avoid that section of the toll system. Fortunately it is in Plano, Frisco and other Republican strongholds where I rarely had to venture.
TeddySanFran @ 152
oh Gawd…..I drive past that thing every morning…!
Are you/were you a DC-area denizen, TeddySanFran?
dmoore @ 120
First, let’s cut to the chase on what constitutes trolling by going to neutral sources:
Wikipedia: troll
TheFreeDictionary: troll (internet)
Second, repeated comments by one or more entities that derail conversation may be perceived as an infestation by some readers and commenters. Trolls in blog comments are rather like cockroaches in the kitchen; if you find one, you may not think you have an infestation. Personally, if I find one cockroach, it’s an infestation and I’m going to deal with it.
Ultimately, dealing with trolls is the policy of the blog owner(s)/operators(s); they can do as they see fit. If one has concerns about their rights to free speech, may I suggest they start a blog of their own at one of the many free blogging sites. Or paid ones, for that matter.
I am having a dakine moment trying to remember where I read the article that was explaining where Obama’s big money was coming from – the sons and daughters of Hillary’s big money people. Hillary’s table is filled already, while Obama’s is wide open. So those who want to be new players are backing Obama.
rwcole @ 146
That would be the Highway to Hell, right?
For the folks who state a believe that Rudy would destroy Hillary in a national election, don’t be so sure. Hillary was all set to mop the floors, walls, and ceilings with Rudy in the Senate race in Y2K until he used his cancer as reason to drop out of the race. Yet in the early stages it was all about how there was no way that Rudy could ever lose to a carpetbagger like Hillary.
Rudy has a tremendous amount of baggage to overcome. The Firefighters Unions will never endorse him. Most folks in NYC and throughout the state remember him negatively. His judgement is knowingly suspect due to his promotions of Keirk. His children don’t speak to him due to his treatment of their mother. He has played both sides of issues without disclosing the fact in court filings. His consulting company has bet the wrong horse while making millions. he carries the weight of Abner Louima, Amadou Diallo, and Patrick DOrismond securely around his neck.
All I’m saying is don’t be too quick to annoint the man. Rudy WILL implode and explode at the same time. He can not stand prosperity and will injure himself in many many ways before the voting even begins. He cannot stand up to the pressure of being questionsed daily by the national media. Believe this and if you doubt, check out Watertiger’s posts on Rudy. There are large amounts of truth there.
Blue Girl @ 151
Hillary is not strong enough nor particularly smart nor has she ever advanced any interesting proposals for social purposes with any effectiveness. Hillary is/would be at her best in a close political environment like the Senate or a lawfirm. She is not a national leader in any sense of the word.
“Making Light” has a lovely way of dealing with trolls — they call it “disemvowelment.”
Part of Conyers’ letter to Gonzo today. From the Gavel:
The Gavel
P J Evans @ 149
Yep, we call it the 118.
I’ll be quiet now. I’ll really try to just lurk.
there was, in fact, more than one troll on that last thread, piously lamenting our liberal loathing.
Blue Girl @ 151
YEAH Blue Girl! Sounds like ya done us all some real good there! ;})
Al Gore is going to be the next President. That’s just the way its gonna go.
I have the suspicion that the rest of Gonzo’s tenure at Justice will mostly spent responding to oversight committees.
Gnome de Plume @ 156
I think it may have been the Times a couple of weeks ago OR it may have been here but I know that I saw it as well. In fact I’m fairly certain it was here as I recall the commenting and some folks questioning why the younger would do so and being told that it was because Hillary’s ranks are already staffed while Obama’s have yet to be filled…
Rayne @ 155
okay, I hear ya.
It wasn’t a question of free speech.
I really was trying to figure out why people here get So Defensive, So Often.
Okay, I feel dully slapped.
AZ Matt @ 166
Or not responding to them as today’s (in)action indicates.
Oh and before i get the “but he’s not running” thing. Well. lets see. He has
A. A Oscar
and
B. A Nobel Peace Prize.
We’ll he’ll have that by then. haha.
He’s revamped his image and will waltz in after the top 3 Dems are have bashed each other a bit and spent a ton of $$$. Genius waiting in the wings if I do say so and I was never a Gore fan. (he’s allright).
Dakine, I think it was the NYT, but it seems very recent. Oh well, my brain is a little rusty today.
Brisingamen @ 160
Pandagon also uses that sometimes.
whatever happenend to Trexing?
In 1999, I watched the Democratic Debate.
Of 8 candidates, Jerry Brown was my favorite and Bill Clinton was my least.
I voted for BC on the “not G Bush” rationale.
I would vote for Hillary on a similar basis, but with lower expectations (I used to think she was the best thing about Bill)…
Larue @ 121
OTOH, if it’s Clinton with the (D), and the repugs cater to their base and nominate a sneering crypto-fascist with skeletons in his closet (as they all have), then we have a great chance for a serious 3rd party run.
As has been pointed out by places like Antiwar.com, political categories like Republican and Democrat, right and left, are slightly obsolete at the moment.
what matters now is Neo-con and their opponents.The War Party, vs people who believe in Peace and the U.S. Constitution.
Hillary Clinton, Lieberman, the DLC, are definite neo-cons. Joe-Bama is certainly not clearly anti-neo-con – he’s trying to play it safe, keep his powder dry, the pollsters haven’t given him the go ahead to renounce nuclear aggression against Iran, so he’s on the neo-con side, sorry fire-pups.
Mike Gravel and Kuchinich are the clearest anti-neo-cons in the Dem race, and they deserve some support from the ‘net-roots’, I think.
Hagel, Ron Paul, and possibly others on the (R) side are anti-neo-con, and there may be others who are reeling at what has been done to their party by the neo-con infestation.
After all they have done to this country, how can ANYONE here justify supporting a neo-con candidate in 2008, even if they have a (D) in front of their name on the ballot?
So if the only anti-neo-con candidate is that of a 3rd party, the choice is clear and easy for me.
(parenthetically, posts like this are considered ‘trolling’ by the most orthodox amongst the Dem faithful. be your own judge, if you still retain independent judgement.)
Iraqi death spiral:
Poppy Bush – 250,000
Bill Clinton – 500,000 (mostly women and kids from continued destruction and degradation of public works infrastructure by bombing)
Shrub Bush – coming up on 1,000,000
Hillary Clinton – too busy with Iran War to count more dead Iraqis…
leftdcin72 @ 150
indeed!
DrDick @ 169
And that takes effort too!
dmoore @ 162
There’s an airport here in DC that I’ll always refer to as Washington National. They can change all the Metro signs they want, I’ll never refer to the airport by that actor’s name.
AZ Matt @ 166
Matt, that would be wonderful, don’t you think? Next best thing to actually doing the perp walk is for Gonzo to have one hearing a week for which to prepare and to sweat. Hell on earth for Abu G., I would think. Heck, that’s the tack that the HJC, SJC and Oversight Committees should take; they ought to have him in front of their panels on a rotating basis, week after week, until he cannot prepare enough in advance and he cracks wide open like the little nut that he is.
All Abu, all the time, our little Oompaloopa in the navy blue suit, singing away, 7/24/365/2 years. He cannot do any further damage to our justice system if he’s kept busy in front of committees, too busy to harrass sedated men in the hospital.
If Rudy makes it past the religious right- we have been invaded by aliens and I ain’t votin fer anybody- cause ya never know.
Don’t see how it could POSSIBLY be Rudy- OR McCain.
Rayne @ 180
A Weekly Series with no reruns! Yes, a great idea!!
TexBetsy @ 177
That goes back to decent folk not believing that others would do such dastardly things. It is what has kept the congressional dems from fighting back. They were/are snookered by all the talk of civility and not watching the actions.
IMO, neither party’s candidate has announced yet.
leftdcin72 @ 150
Gore was most certainly not out debated by Bush. A Supreme Court ruling that a recount in Florida was not valid would have been, shall I say, pretty hard to overcome.
Mc
Agree
We went through that dark moment when wingnuts were namin every street and public restroom in sight after his Ronniness..Made me wanna PUKE.
AZ Matt @ 182
Hmmmmm. Little Abu on a skewer grilling away, with Jerry Falwell providing the fire. What a lovely thought.
Mack @ 184
You thinking Gore & Thompson? Or someone else in mind?
GDP
I have a good friend who argued with me before the invasion of Iraq. I said it was inconceivable that we could invade on such flimsy pretext and he asserted that we *had* to have good intelligence of nukes.
Oversight is required.
Democracy is a contact sport.
Breaking News from ABCNEWS.com:
EXCLUSIVE: PRESIDENT BUSH CHOOSES LT. GEN. DOUGLAS LUTE AS NEW ‘WAR CZAR’ TO OVERSEE CONFLICTS IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN.
dmoore@168….sometimes people are defensive (anywhere), but that really is not what is going on about the trolls. They are here to provoke, not discuss. I think if you look over some of the comments on the last thread you’ll see what I mean.
The Bush crowd sure outfoxed the Democrats on the Iraq War vote. And a lot of Americans about the reasons for attacking Iraq.
I believe that Clusterfuck lost every debate he ever showed up for. Every one to Gore- every one to Kerry.
In the Gore debates- people tuned in just ta watch him crash against the wall and burn- like a NASCAR race.
TexBetsy @ 190
I feel so much better now. ;0)
Do not feed the Trolls-unless it is melamine fortified food-they love it.
Mack @ 189
And it is NOT a spectator sport.
—-
I am off to do mom stuff. Back in a few hours.
TexBetsy @ 190
Is this guy a masochist or what?
Mack @ 184
Olbermann alluded to this possibility at both debates, iirc. It’s entirely possible, given the talent that’s currently undeclared on our side: Gore, Clark. And the ambition that’s undeclared on theirs: FThompson, Newtie.
TexBetsy
Well, there is no advantage for Gore to announce early.
And on the R side, who knows.
Certainly none of the ‘contenders’ really stands a chance.
Early runners just make better targets.
If you have name recognition, theres no point.
TexBetsy @ 190
Does this mean that somebody in the administration will actually have to take personal responsibility for the Clusterfuck in Iraq? It would bea Bush administration first.
It still boggles my mind that anyone could have voted for a candidate that would have been a perfect stand-in for Larry Linville.
I mean, Major Frank Burns for President?!
Brisingamen @ 160
They do that at Political Animal, as well. A guy who posts as Cleek is the one who wrote the Greasemonkey script. I’ll see if I can find his website – he considers shareing the troll-whacking club a public service.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 192
Not me!
BlueGirl #151.
I think you’re right. I have observed the same phenomenon, and looked for an answer, which you’ve graciously provided.
Thanks.
Brisingamen @ 201
Hotlips thought he was cute.
Populist: a member of a political party claiming to represent the common people. From Merriam-Webster.
TeddySanFran @ 203
Not my Senator (Durbin)
Rayne @ 180
But…he wasn’t sweating at the last one. He was actually laughing at his questioners. He has no doubt that his job is secure and is to protect Bush and Rove and he will not be asked to leave unless the Democrats force him out.
“Lute”
Poor son of a bitch.
The aztecs used ta have a “sin eater” a guy whose job it was to eat the sins of everyone else in town- so they could go on about their business.
Who knew that Clusterfuck was an Aztec?
TeddySanFran @ 203
Goes w/out saying. ;0)
TexBetsy @ 190
Here is an article about some of his views – interesting – he’s not a neocon – maybe this is a good thing:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/9f81fe…..511c8.html
I wonder at the selection of an active-duty military man as W’s War Czar — is he the Pentagon’s Chimp-minder?
TexBetsy @ 190
Well now, If Chimpy doesn’t want to be the Decider in chief anymore, maybe he should fucking RESIGN!!
rwcole @ 193
the problem has always been that the bar is set so bloody low for C**f**….so that, if he utters a single coherent sentence without making a total ass of himself, the repubs are dancing “Victory!” in the streets, and the MSM lapping it all right up.
He outfoxed the Hillary. Ms. Smarty pants front runner.
LS @ 211
Still though, here’s another active military going into what should by all rights be a civilian position. NOT a good thing.
Bustednuckles @ 213
Oh no. Chimperator is still the Decidernator & Commander Guy. Lute is simply the official buck stopper.
War Czar?
When did our form of Democracy allow the commander in cheeef to appoint a commander in chief?
I can’t recall where I read it, but someone speculated that the War Czar was going to be Bush and Cheney’s end-run around civilian Sec. Def. Robert Gates.
-GSD
dakine01 @ 216
I totally agree on that point. I’m just referring to his indications that he favored withdrawal as opposed to ramping up more neocon war.
oddmommy @ 191
I’m so not here to argue…
And, as I said before, I read as many comments as possible. Maybe, when I start to read a Troll Blog, my brain just automatically skips down to the next intelligent comment.
I’m an oddmommy too. Didn’t want to cause any more disturbance than was already around.
Have a good afternoon OM. I’m trying to finish my Banana Nut Bread (from scratch) I have the day off and was trying to be productive. I’ll try harder.
Hey. ‘If you don’t agree with my vote on Iraq, then vote for someone else’. Recent basic Hillary.
From LS’s link, dated AUGUST 2005:
Sounds like Lute musta drunk some kool-aid between then and now…
Rayne @ 180
I’m still stunned by the description of the midnight raid on Lady Justice, at the bedside of a sedated and even off-duty John Ashcroft
Oh my GOODNESS!
They shouldn’t be voting – they should be looking to find a good husband and bear his children!
Pretty neat trick “War Czar”
Clusterfuck tells him what ta say an do- then when it fucks up- Clusterfuck says “I was only listenin ta the military– I only care about the troops—the democrats are tryin ta politicize mah WAR”
Fuckin evil genius that clusterfuck.
FYI, New thread
Helen @ 208
That, dear Helen, is because the Committee didn’t ask emptywheel and looseheadprop to generate the list of questions. Nor did the Committee members defer and yield their minutes to their strongest panel member. I wish they’d get their acts together and do just that, gather questions from the best sources and ask their best questioner to grill the little bastard. Then he would sweat and profusely.
And I’m certain that Rover would be sweating, too, probably looking like a puddle of melted white chocolate.
GSD @ 219
(Higgins Voice) Oh – My – GOD! (HV off)
Then what was the bloody point in firing Rummy and getting Gates confirmed?
I do not understand this — is it just level after level of misdirection?
Brisingamen @ 229
I think this is W saying Get me the F outta there and outta here.
So are the Joint Chiefs and the SecDef now irrelevant? I want a look at the command heirarchy chart.
Ed*ard Teller @ 176
Did you ever see this:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..55_pf.html
It was written close to a year ago, but he just lost his son in Iraq last week.
Clusterfuck’s A-1 goal is to leave office with lots of troops still in Iraq fightin the war that never ends.
The War Czar provides many amusing methods of delaying action and accountability- which is all clusterfuck cares about.
Rayne, I wonder if there is a prohibition against the Dems on any Cte getting together to organize questions. Presumably, the Chair can organize and assign questions (needs to be done better on HJCte) but maybe the majority can’t meet without violating some rule about having secret meetings without the minority. Just a WAG on my part — trying to understand the scarily poor performance overall.
Also, our team might be rusty. 14 years outta power and all.
New post by Jane!!!
leftdcin72 @ 150
Not really. You must remember many of these people have no morals or conscience so they can be wery, wery twikky!
hey, getting a 404 error when i tried to access comments in the new thread upstairs.
Eureka Springs @ 227
Bad link, ES!!!
never mind, thread just went away.
Eureka Springs @ 227
linky 404 — just as well, back to work for me!
TeddySanFran @ 152
I laugh every time I drive by that sign. George Bush? Intelligence? ;-)
tommy yum @ 237
TOMMY! hey you. Me too on the 404, btw.
Ooops, I mean. Oh my Goodness!
TeddySanFran @ 240
It was an excellent article, I got the zed!!! Dropped down to tell everyone, and poof!!!
Jane just put a different new thread on the new “czar”
STTP in Ohio @ 236
They were not very “twikky”.
Bush was a sitting duck for a competent campaign. As far as morals are concerned, I agree. But Bush is nothing more than a confused puppet and he could easily have been beaten if the Democrats had implemented a competent campaign. Maybe you do not rememeber how enept Gore and Kerry were/are.
I’m not a big Hillary fan, but BIG props to her for getting single women registered to vote.
I hope she does that all over the country. Hell, the DNC should be doing that too. Hey Howard…
TexBetsy @ 190
General George Armstrong Custer to the rescue.
TexBetsy @ 190
Turkey – meet chopping block.
Thanks TexBetsy!
leftdcin72 @ 245
Kerry used some folks with questionable skill sets who were part of the entrenched old-school powerbase aligned with DLC and the old Dem consultantocracy. It got him the same kind of results that Gore got doing the same thing.
Obviously you’ve not been paying any attention to Gore for the last two years. You could try for starters by checking out his speech at Constitution Hall in Jan. 2006 (and no, I’m not going to find it for you). That’s the same Al Gore who’s finally shed the blight of old school, the same guy who in 1992 as a seated Senator called for a Marshall Plan for energy to free us of the national security threat that is petroleum.
You might also do us the favor of just spitting it out and telling us who you’re stumping for. I am rather tired of the incessant Gore-bashing for purposes you’re not disclosing.
dakine01 @ 158
Ok, so it’s NOT Rude G for the GOP, but who EVER it is, will win, and win big against HRC.
This nation wants NOTHING to do with her. She’s a paid shill for DLC, A*P*C and the war machine.
We really need and CAN do better than that.
Edited * and released by Mod
Hmm. Interesting.
There seems to be a parallel between the topic (certain presidential candidates) and the presence of certain commenters. Worth watching…and Googling across the internet.
dakine01 @ 158
Ok, fine, so if it’s not Rude G then who EVER the GOP puts out there will win.
This nation, coast to coast, does NOT want HRC as a president. MY reasons include her being a shill for A*P*C, the DLC, and the war party in general. Any GOP on a stick will beat her in the General Election.
If this comes up as a double post, it’s cuz I didn’t see my FIRST response right away, where I spelled out in full the dreaded A*P*C acro.
But I don’t mind typin what I think about Shilary twice, on ANY day. (grin)
sporkovat @ 175 . . .
OTOH, if it’s Clinton with the (D), and the repugs cater to their base and nominate a sneering crypto-fascist with skeletons in his closet (as they all have), then we have a great chance for a serious 3rd party run. . . .
Great response. I love it, and eagerly and whole heartedly concur!!
Cept for the fact, that the 3rd party guy might be a Fat Cat/MIC/Big Bro Disciple like Bloomberg.
I’d work with Gore . . . but, he’s big money reppin and shillin as much as any of them.
Kuch IS my guy, but, for some reason unelectable . . .
Edwards in a pinch, Gore in a pinch, Kuch any day.
Anyone but HRC and, as you point out, reps of NEOCON’s, A*P*C, MIC, Big Bro Buckies.
And DEFINITELY someone with the guts to STOP this insane global drive for dominance of resources, gunboat diplomacy, international politics based on Banana Business, etc.
Someone with a HUGE domestic agenda to find ALTERNATIVE ENERGY, FAST! Free healthcare for all, jobs with good pay, affordable housing, NO OUTSOURCING, affordable education beyond high school, development of generationally dependant urban welfare recipients, A NATIONAL JOBS PROGRAM for anyone unemployed so they HAVE to work for their pay.
Programs to develop urban and community based Grower Projects to make good food instead of green lawns, that would feed everyone, and then the homeless, too.
What a crazy dream! That person would be shot and ‘disappeared’ the moment they begin to run on those issues.
Oh well, back to the challenges of daily living, gainful employment, and planning to move to Canada for our final decade or two (my wife’s still a Nova Scotian).
rwcole @ 181
Yeah, I was typin faster n my brain was keeping track of THAT point . . . change any post I did that says Rudy G to GOP Phool . . . (grin)
larue @ 252.
our sentiments r.e. the dreaded HRC are very widespread – there is a certain orthodoxy on sites like this, and way further gone, dailykos that prevents statements like “I would vote for a talking ostrich before I would vote for a DLC, War Party candidate” from being expressed, because who wants to be called a ‘troll’?
However, as we can clearly see with the neo-con orthodox world view, true beleivers can lose touch with reality because they are too wedded to their fantasy world.
So, Dem strategic pragmatists, victory for the (D) party at all costs, take note:
The old trick of “vote for the least worst, even though she threatens to pre-emptively use nuclear weapons against country that does not threaten us – she’s not as bad as the other guy! And anyway, think about the Supreme Court nominees or other policy wonk gibberish blah blah blah” this trick won’t work with HRC for many many many people, she is too odious, too neo-con, too DLC.
therefore – a huge space opens up for a 3rd party candidate to the left, many will abstain from voting for her, and some far right wackos who were going to sit this one out because their nominee is insufficiently fascistic will be motivated by the “least worst” argument that they, to their credit, do not usually fall for, and they’ll come out and vote against and so the (D) may snatch defeat from the jaws of certain victory.
so, (D) pragmatists, try not to let the nomination go to a DLC neo-con, ok?
Mack @ 184
Oooooooooooo that’s provocative, hoss!!!
Colin Powell? Nah.
Gore? Maybe.
But, you didn’t lay that out there just to see our feeble attempts to respond, so, toss us a few bones waddaya say, hoss!!! (SMILE)
TexBetsy @ 190
Oh shit, here we go. Next stop, red glows on our horizons. Damn, that this position was ever approved much less filled is horrendous.
I’m eager for analysis on this by the pro’s, inlcuding the FDL folks, and FDL Pups.
I’m incredibly FEARFUL about this, but, lacking any understanding of what it MIGHT mean beyond my fears.
‘Bring It On’ Pups!! N thanks TB for the breaking news . . . . hope today is a good day for ya, and may you have better one’s ahead, BTW. (bows)
LS @ 211 . . .
Interesting comments there, but, since August of 2005, there’s been a lot of shit come down that’s not part and parcel of ANY of that article.
My guess is Lute is the bag holder, and will be charged with making sure NO ONE (or at least few) withdraws down till after the General Election.
PLovering @ 247
“Aboooouuutttt FACE! ADVANCE, Towarhds The REEEAAHHHHHH!”
Cue ‘Gary Owen’ . . . and, VOLUME UP. Fade to black.
One way for Sen. Clinton to attract single or unmarried women voters would be to tailor her messages in a general way to include all Americans, instead of speaking all the time about “helping families”. As a single woman anytime I hear a politican laying emphasis on “helping families”, it makes me want to run for the hills because I feel excluded and as a result ends up not voting.
Rayne @ 249
You might also do us the favor of just spitting it out and telling us who you’re stumping for. I am rather tired of the incessant Gore-bashing for purposes you’re not disclosing.
Actually, Gore has been recently painted as a shill for big business, especially the nuke energy sector. And the petroturds have all made GREAT inroads to nuke investing and development.
So, he really ain’t about the comman man, in any sense. But, would he be better n what we have? Oh yea. Would he be better n Shilary?
Oh yeah.
Scary thought, he runs, and takes Shilary as VP.
Rayne @ 249
Believe it or not, I see this in generational terms. When I was in DC in politics in the early 70s, my office building was next to Kerry (VVAW). I saw quite a bit of him. I thought then and think now, he was an insincere self-promoter whoc was not even effective at it. Opinion formed then and continued through his wind surfing presidential campaign. Also ran into Gore during the same period with his high pressure parents forcing him into politics, he was unhappy with politics then and now and besides he is not the sharpest knife in the drawer (miles between him and the Clintons). To wit Gore does have the basic instinct to be an effective national leader.
I am stumping for skipping the Vietnam era generation of conventional politicins and moving on to the next generation. Unfortunately, Clinton, Kerry and Gore, Bush are the worst of the Vietnam era, all second rate self promoters.
Speaking as a 52 year old unmarried woman with (only) an Associates Degree, a $59K/year job, and my own home/mortgage…. after starting over with 3months rent, a 78 vw van, no job, no net, no help from anyone 14 years ago … I see Hillary as a Republican A*P*C-ite neocon shapeshifter.
She won’t be getting my vote. I cannot support her no matter what. She will insure a Republican victory either way. She needs to go sit down and contemplate, over there on the bench with Lieberman, why they’re Republicans and neocons.
There is nothing she can do to prove leadership ability after her vote for the war. She cannot eat it no matter how she tries. That one act, that vote tells me she has not the spine nor the leadership abilities to lead this country any place other than down the same garden path we’re on.
I’d give anything to see a woman President in my lifetime. Nominating and electing her would not accomplish that.
With all due respect, could we please all develop some valid criteria for locating our next leader. Let’s start with these: NO family members of previous leaders. NO one who voted for the war. NO exceptions.
Thank you.
Edited ** and released by Mod
leftdcin72 @ 262
last sentence, first paragraph there is a typo, sorry
Oklahoma kiddo @ 133
Some people say you’re on to something.
TeddySanFran @ 152
Yes yes I know it’s the GHW Bush CIA building, but geez, don’t they realize how idiotic that sign must seem with Dubya in charge?
Maybe they should rename it the “Center for Inteligence” so there’s at least a clue about the Bush involvement, but without overwhelming us with their ignrance.
“A recent national poll by Quinnipiac University, for example, shows Clinton leading the Democratic primary race with 32 percent. She leads Sen. Barack Obama by 14 points, former Vice President Al Gore by 18 points and former Sen. John Edwards by 20 points, thanks in large part to women voters.”
This is shameful to be targeting women this way. A person’s gender should have no bearing on the job they’re being considered for. Their demonstrated skills, talents, and leadership ability should be the only evaluation.
Isn’t this more cronyism? I mean isn’t this how bush got elected? Being of the same (crime) family as daddy bush. Let’s check ourselves here people.
Because Hilary is a woman is NOT a reason to vote for her, not ever. That’s cheap and shallow. What are her leadership qualities? None that I can think of at all! Why is she even running? Because she wants to be the first woman President…. at least that’s all I’ve heard her say. Why, we wouldn’t even know who she was today except she was the First Lady of President Clinton. That doesn’t qualify her for anything. I’m sorry but NO.
I get the feeling this article is a “focus group” of sorts. So…. to Hil’s pollsters. Tell us what she’s ABOUT will ya! Give us something more than “she’s a woman” and “she’s Bill Clinton’s wife”. Good grief!
For the record, the only way government should be involved with health “care” is to ban the big pharma and insurance advertisements. Look at allll the dollars they spend on that that could be spent on research and real development of cures for real issues instead of male sexual enhancement drugs. Bonus: removes the power of suggestion that sends untold thousands of people running to their health scare provider for the “little purple pill” of the moment. Costs would come down, people could afford it, research get funding. Crisis over.