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To be honest, I saw the Carney thing coming a mile away. His voting record hasn't been among the best of the freshmen. In fact, I think the only newly-elected Democrats with more reactionary records are Rahm Emanuel's Heath Shuler (NC), Indiana's conservative congressmen Baron Hill and Brad Ellsworth and Texas' Nick Lampson. When Carney voted against the Hate Crimes bill last week-- one of only 14 Democrats who did (while 25 Republicans voted with the Democratic majority)-- the only thing that surprised me was how easy it was for Carney to go back on a direct campaign promise (as well as a direct promise to me personally) to support equality. When his office said he wasn't available to discuss it with me and instead sent a lame e-mail of Republican talking points as an excuse, I got really depressed.
Then came the vote on ending the war in Iraq. Three congressmen endorsed by Blue America abandoned the Democrats and voted with the Bush Regime: Carney again, Ciro Rodriguez... and Jerry McNerney.
Jerry's explanation (part of that post in the link just above) wasn't insulting the way Carney's excuses were. But I was still dismayed and disappointed. Today a reporter from one of the district papers called me to get a comment. I knew what he wanted; I didn't give it to him. Unlike Carney, McNerney's been a very good congressman so far. He's earned, at least in my mind, the benefit of the doubt. Where do we go from here? How do we respond? And what do we do in the future?
Teddy was the first, but several community members who had donated to Carney's campaign asked for refunds. Others called and e-mailed. So far, he's been totally unresponsive. What's our next step? Should we chalk it up to a lesson learned? Or should we ramp up the pressure? I'm looking for suggestions from the community. And what about Jerry? What do we done about him?
I will say one thing that's positive which has come out of this; now when challengers request an opportunity to come on for a Blue America chat, I ask them to read the Carney thing first. A woman running in PA-15 against classic rubber stamp Republican Charlie Dent, looked it over and said she's a perfect match for us. I'll introduce her as soon as she's filed her papers and made it official. I suspect that the seriousness with which we, as a community, take this will determine how other candidates take it. A future Carney might look at it and decide it isn't worth the hassle and decline to get involved with us. That would be fine with me.
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WoW dakine you are FAST today, congrats!
Hi Howie!
Hi Howie!
Well at least you’ll have something to point to now when interviewing prospective Blue America candidates. “Don’t be Chris Carney.”
Nice legacy he’s gonna have.
Good morning, Teddy. Any word from Carney?
lolo @ 3
As always, dumb luck. I had just come back to the front page and the prior thread was still up top, but after I had clicked to it, the new showed up so I clicked in and got lucky.
Hi Howie -
Thanks for moderating with our DCCC friends yeaterday - and thanks for your work with Blue America
kirk murphy @ 8
I don’t remember if it was you or not, but someone asked what everyone thought about the DCCC guys’ chat. I was hoping to wait until today for that discussion– along with the ones about the next step regarding Carney and what to do about McNerney.
Jane Hamsher @ 5
Yes. It sounds as though you’re doing exactly the right thing, by being very public about their defection.
howieklein @ 9
Nope, not me. I did see the question, but I liked your decision to defer the discussion.
I didn’t give much money, as I don’t have much to give. But I feel betrayed and angered. So what to do? Withdraw support for those who stray too far and run candidates against folks like Carney. You’ve got lots to do, for sure, but if you hear of anyone in Carney’s district who’s progressive and interested in running… I’m just saying.
howieklein @ 9
I was lurking in that one and thought people asked AMAZING questions. Not sure if the answers were exactly what I wanted to hear, but I know we asked many hours worth.
lolo @ 2
Is this kind of like catching a foul ball at a baseball game?
lilybelle @ 12
The problem with a district like PA-10 is that it is very, very backward and red. If Carney loses, it won’t be to a progressive but to a Republican who will be considerably worse than he is. That’s partially why I want to tread carefully.
But Charlie Dent’s not a Rubber Stamp war-mongering Republican, Howie. Didn’t you hear? He led the brave GOP House mission to the White House solarium to speak truth to power, in front of Condi, Gates, Karl, and Hadley. Surely this bravery [he voted against the supplemental the very next day, as did all who accompanied him] and courage to stand up to BubbleBoy means he’s exempt to a BlueAmerica challenge?
/snark
Howie,
In a small defense for the folks you ID’d as “reactionaries” in your blog, most of them are pretty reflective of their districts. As an example is Ben Chandler from the district I grew up in in Kentucky. That district is a purplish shade tending to the red. He replaced Ernie Fletcher after Fletcher’s lies got him elected governor of Kentucky.
Their votes are understandable, even if disappointing to many of us. The electoral whores on the other hand are totaly fair game. Although even there, I can understan Udall voting as he did since he is attempting to win a red senate seat in a purple state.
Anyway, my $.02
Voting with Bush on Iraq is no small matter. What could be a more important vote? I’m pissed, and just got a letter from McNerny yesterday. In it he said, “I also look forward to addressing the important issues of our day, such as: the war in Iraq, health care, education and putting an end to our nation’s dependence on foreign oil.”
So he addresses the Iraq war by voting for Bush’s massacre?
TeddySanFran @ 16
He should be a particular target. He will be attacked from the right for daring to even like he seemed to oppose the Regime, and our target is a real progressive. I hope we can have her on within a month or so.
Hi Howie, I don’t regret donating to Jerry. Hey, consider the alternative!
As for Carney, I’m not really concerned with getting my money back. Let him be an example of those who have unearned our support.
I’d like to see us concentrate more on primary challenges than we did in 2006. But we need to be smart about it.
howieklein @ 6
de nada.
The next step is a snailmail to his campaign address, which I post here for those who’d like to join me in protesting Carney’s vote:
Carney for Congress
Post Office Box A
Clarks Summit, PA 18411
I don’t know if this address works; I’m sending a registered letter on Monday and will report back!
Kitt @ 14
good analogy but we must not talk of the zed when we have our beloved guest Howie lets behave for Jane. : (
dakine01 @ 17
That’s the kind of calculus we have to weigh. Carney is a case unto himself because he blatantly lied and tricked us out of money and effort on his behalf. That’s why I like Teddy’s approach– to demand that he return the dough so we can help canddiates who do support the things he promised he would support when we donated to his campaign.
I guess we just need to have really duck-proof questions for the Blue America candidates with their understanding that before we contribute, we all have a clear understanding on the important issues.
As someone who has only been around FDL a month or two, I am still not 100% clear on what blue America is, what exactly the aim is, etc. Are threads like this a PAC strategy session in addition to being a fundraiser? When I click on Blue America up top I get somewhat of an idea, but still not 100%.
howieklein @ 15
I defer to your judgment. You’re one of the folks who made the Democratic takeover of Congress possible. But how do we flex our muscles and make our folks recognize that they’ve got to respond to our issues or face consequences?
lolo @ 21
I’m all in.
From Carl Nyberg at 112 (11:40) on the Van Hollen/Vogel chat:
McNerney’s vote is a real disappointment.
But all along, there have been candidates whose progressive creds seemed pretty weak getting lots of support from the left blogosphere.
Aravosis and Kos supported Scott Kleeb, whose position on LGBT rights was less than palatable.
I think the blogs and grass roots progrssives are going to win some bets (Jim Webb) and lose some (Carney). Donors will know that the Blue America folks are more likely to be progressive than not. But the candidates and donors will know that Howie Klein won’t be fooled twice.
That’s what counts, not whether you gave someone the benefit of the doubt.
The other thing is that it’s likely that Carney’s district is way more progressive than that vote.
re TSF asking for a refund: I didn’t know you could do that. I thought politics was sort of like Vegas - you get taxed on your winnings but can’t write off your losses. Considering how inherently dishonest most politicians tend to be, your vetting process has worked out far better than most, Howie.
Back in 1978, Anchorage real estate developer and big Democratic Party contributor Pete Zamarello, when complaning to me about Sen. Mike Gravel’s actions after Zamerello had filtered and screened tens of thousands Mike’s way in return for legislation which Gravel then refused to craft, told me in Z’s heavy Greek accent “Feeel, Feeeel, Feeeeel (Z’s way of saying ‘Phil’)!! Politicians are ALL alike. You bribe them and you bribe them and you bribe them and they STILL do whatever they want!”
ifthethunderdontgetya @ 20
Donna Edwards is taking on Al Wynn in Maryland. Pach and I spent a few days with her this week. What an amazing woman! I hope to have her back here at FDL soon. I’m looking closely at the David Scott district in suburban Georgia. It’s a very blue district and he’s a reactionary dog. The woman who runs CBC Monitor is going to help us on this one. (Pach and I spent some time with her too.)
‘I thought blogger on down with tyrrany web site had an interesting soloution.In a similar situation,he contacted his credit card company and requested a refund stating false advertising for product purchased.Refund arrived in a week.
dakine01 @ 17
ifthethunderdontgetya @ 20
I agree with both these comments. I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect a congressman to get out too far in front of his constituents; if he does, he may have a short stay. That having been said, there’s also a difference between playing to the constituents (or where you think they are) and breaking a campaign promise.
I’m much more concerned about the Democrats retaining control than absolute ideological purity.
howieklein @ 23
Totally agree with the assessment of Carney. When the lies are THAT blatant, the liar needs to be called out and taken down if possible. It would be nice to see integrity return to a dirty business and the liars shown that there are consequences to the lies, even if not made under oath (Hel-LO Scooter. And Abu. And Kyle. And Monica. And so one ad infinitum).
TexBetsy @ 25
Yep; we’re not doing a fundraiser per se this weekend, just a strategy session and I was hoping to get an idea from the community about how to procede. I think you’ve got it pretty well figured out, Tex.
What do you think of Mike Arcuri. I liked his votes last week. He’s a blue dog which I know isn’t looked upon kindly here but when I researched it a bit all it talked about was fiscal responsibility (which I can’t fault). So, tell me about this ‘blue dog’ designation. Can I not relax and know that my rep is going to be a true democrat?
on the phone with Jerry McNerney right now!!!! He just called.
did McNerny vote no on both bills? or just no on the McGovern bill?
Total shunning for Carney. Contact orgs and candidates who might be likely supporters/attendees at his fundraisers and ask them to shun him as well.
We’ve had six years of lies from BushCo–we need better from our team.
And in that vein [see my epu-ed ratty thoughts at the end of the last thread]: on 11/7 Americans clearly voted to restore honor and integrity to our democracy. We owe ‘em no less.
And Chee-knee can give all the manipulative self-serving speeches he wants to our military.
The truth is, Iraq is Bush’s disgrace. It is Bush’s dishonor.
America’s honor will be restored globally and in every hometown neighborhood when we bring our troops home–alive and whole.
howieklein @ 37
put him on speaker! : )
Do you have any comments on the Max Sawicky post over at TPM Cafe (I found it via Atrios)
You do a great job with Blue America, and I think what he (and indirectly, Jonathan Chait) are saying is so completely wrong and off base. It is how we ended up with John Kerry as a Presidential candidate because the powers that be declared Kerry to be “electable”.
What I see happening with the “conservative” dems is that, once in Washington, they start listening to the Democratic lobbyists, as well as the K Street people, who will follow whoever has the majority.
When Sherrod Brown voted in favor of torture, I asked for my money back, and he sent it. The fifty bucks itself I am sure made no difference to his campaign. But somebody managing the money had to think about it, get approval, write the check, put it in the mail. Actions. Making them give the money back is good. They care so much about the money, just because of how things work.
Two Indiana Democrats, Joe Donnelly and Brad Ellsworth, posted statements about their NO votes on the Hate Crimes bill. Their arguments are standard issue, but the commenters are respectful, with terrific counter-arguments. For those of you who sometimes find yourself in backed into cul-de-sac discussions of “special rights” and “criminalizing thought,” Bilerico’s commenters provide hefty responses.
It’s a shame Carney hasn’t availed himself of a forum like the two Hoosiers have. While both their “blogs” are statements without any interaction, at least Ellsworth’s press secretary appeared to say the comments would be read by the Congressman and considered carefully. That’s pretty fair, I thought.
If Carney’s staff reads this, I recommend a sit-down here. We’ve shown we can be respectful — and we deserve some answers.
Howie,
Thanks for your work with Blue America! I really appreciated the alternatives that Blue America and ActBlue provided to DCCC last year for funding progressive candidates. As a result, I contributed not one dime to DCCC.
I especially liked the menu of candidates that these sites offered– a kind of “one stop shopping” where I could pick the candidates I wanted to support, allocate payment, and pay for my choices in one place.
Will Blue America and ActBlue collaborate on the 2008 elections?
Bob in HI
IMO… It isn’t so much that these people are voting as those in their districts would want them to as it is their misrepresentation to those who contributed to get them elected.
loosetooth @ 32
I wouldn’t recommend this. Seriously, I had an error on my bill once. Took 6mos to get it off and then a year or 2 later I got a letter from a collection agency demanding payment. Another 6 mos of letter writing. I think it’s over now, but who knows?
solai @ 36
Blue dog is a play on the old adage from the south of a “Yellow dog democrat,” i.e., I’ll voote for a yellow dog running as a dem before I vote for a Republican. I believe it was during the St Ray-guns years that it became a descriptor for southern dems and those in Redubyacan competitive districts. It was a way to set themselves apart from the Dirty Eff’in hippie/San Francisco/Barney Frank “values” librul dem. Not necessarily a positive term.
But IIRC, as we were talking the other night, Arcuri is in a fairly moderate district even though his competition claimed to be a conservative.
McNerney’s vote is a BIG disappointment. I donated to him through Blue America, and his victory over that criminal Pombo was personally my favorite of the entire 06 elections. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt, but it’s difficult to think of giving him any money ever again.
solai @ 46
That would not make for good publicity for a politician to be complaining that he was sending collection agencies after campaign contributins cancelled because of lies.
MayDaze @ 33
I agree. Trashing democrats for being lousy democrats doesn’t make much strategic sense if they’re running against even more rotten republicans.
spurious @ 49
At the same time … we need to take our party back.
rat bastahd @ 47
I just got off the phone with him. He said he struggled with the vote but is convinced that the supplemental strategy is the right way to go and that it will force more and more Republicans to buckle and do the right thing. He felt the other bill was counterproductive and would have played into Bush’s hands. I don’t agree with him personally but I feel certain of his sincerity. I know ending the war is a huge priority for him.
loosetooth @ 32
The problem with this approach is that my credit card charge is with ActBlue. I hate to put those hard-working folks through a dispute, since I have no dispute with them.
Sending prospective BA candidates to read the Carney story is a great idea.
Howie, your work to make BlueAmerica more than just a campaign-season influence is the key here, imo. Maybe one of the things we could ask of our candidates is that they commit to returning to the Lake (or other “venue”) periodically–a hard commitment, not a vague one–to answer to us directly for their votes?
I think, overall, the answer to what we should do in cases like Carney’s is–what you’re already doing. Each instance will have a different context and will require discussion. With Carney specifically, I’m curious: do we have any kind of relationship with his staff? The really smart ones would know that avoiding us is exactly the wrong move regardless of our public expressions of outrage, if they’re actually interested in our support–which I don’t think is obvious. We were disposable on the Hate Crimes bill; we’re disposable at will. That’s the message I got. Otherwise, you would have received a call from Carney beforehand, saying “I made this promise and I intend to keep it but I’m in a bind on this vote; can we talk about how to handle it?”
Can we do a two-pronged thing where we keep up the public demands for accountability and try for discussions with Carney and staff to understand whether they’re repudiating us? I really want to know.
One thing that I think will serve us well in time to come is an organized archive where we collect the whole story of every candidate we support, what worked and what didn’t, so that we have data that anyone can go back and look at when questions like this come up.
Thank you again for your incredible hard work. Keep lettting us know how we can help.
TexBetsy @ 51
Amen.
TexBetsy @ 50
Agreed. I see it as a painfully slow process - we have to retain control of Congress while slowly weeding out the reactionaries and educating the public.
spurious @ 50
Double agreed. Unless we’re talking about Joe Lieberman.
What are Fire-Pups thinking about the new, not-very-well-publicized “free” trade bill that Pelosi and Rangel just announced Thursday?
Howie, the problem with progressives, and smart people in general, is that as they get information, they may adjust their views. That may well be the situation with McNerney. I have pointed out on several threads that we have a real problem leaving, and may have to fight our way out. It seems plausible that something short of immediate withdrawal may be appropriate, something that might enable us to provide a bit of stability without exposing our people to so much danger.
So, to me, the issue remains the same, if he is smart, we have a reasonable chance of getting votes more to our liking in the future. Let’s watch and see. There is plenty of time to change our minds later.
Like I mentioned, the Tracy Press interviewed me about Jerry’s vote yesterday. The story just went up on their website.
I was profoundly disappointed by McNerney’s vote, but I agree that he merits the benefit of the doubt, at least for now. not quite a mulligan, however.
Slightly OT but maybe Carney needs to learn his audience, like Brownback didn’t in Wisconsin. Story from MSNBC.
Slightly OT: John McCain’s campaign doesn’t seem to be doing too well.
Is Carney’s and McNerney’s vote related to not supporting Pelosi and supporting Hoyer?
MayDaze @ 56
Right. And the key point is that we need to retain control of congress. If it goes back to the republicans, reform will a dead horse.
I understand the pragmatic argument of more conservative Democrats running in more conservative districts, but that doesn’t excuse the hypocrisy, misrepresentation, and outright lying.
I also too wonder at what point exactly do they cease to be Democrats. If they can’t bring themselves to vote with their party on the central issue of bringing a close to the disaster of the Iraq war, then how other than in conveniently borrowing the name of Democrat to run for office do they in any way, shape, or form represent anything or anyone in the Democratic Party?
Howie, I’ve turned my blogging utility into a downloadable. Anybody who gets it today can have 10% off and I will donate another $5 to the Blue America PAC for every one sold.
Then you can write
dwtt for Down With Tyranny!
fdll for Firedoglake
ewl for emptywheel
fwom for Phoenix Woman
hkk for Howie Klein
tsfoo for TeddySanFran
pachh for Pachacutec
and
trex for TRex
plus about 7,000 more — many of them non-Firedoglake-related! ha.
If anyone is interested, you can click my link, and put in “Howie” for the code to get the discount and so I know to send the $$ to the Blue America PAC.
To the mods: If this is not appropriate, PLEASE delete this comment!!
pioneer111 @ 63
I don’t think so. Do you have something in mind?
off topic but this is pretty huge…another ag that was fired but this one says it was definately to stop his corruption investigation and that he has fired directly by the president and he has a letter from teh president’s lawyer
teh story
solai -
Tks for the NC vote linky on the downstairs thread.
perris @ 68
have a link?
LindaR @ 66
What about Jane and Christy?
TexBetsy @ 71
linkypoo
howieklein @ 68
No, I just wondered. I don’t understand what happened and am just speculating. Thanks for your answer.
Thanks Howie! If I truly believed the Dem caucus had a plan to both end this despicable war ASAP and to land a death blow to the GOP it would be easier to be supportive of votes such as the one McNerney just made.
I understand the slow nature of solving political issues, esp. with these two outdated reactionary political parties with which we are stuck, however, with the war and global warming we don’t have that kind of time imho.
And I know both of these issues are very important to McNerney so I may give him a pass on this one, however, not so with votes like the one Carney made. I gave money to Sestak too and can’t say that I’m very happy with his votes.
If I was to give any solution it would be that maybe we could work hard to put up/support progressive Dems in the primaries to run against the Carney-type reactionaries that failed us. I certainly understand the sentiment that even a blue dog is better than a Repuke. However, if they knew that we would be working towards the goal (of retaking OUR progressive party), in fact, against them next time if they fell into the trap of Beltway thinking then maybe we’d gain more clout. Anyways, just thinking out loud…
pioneer111 @ 63
Excellent question. Hoyer voted against the McGovern bill IIRC.
howieklein @ 72
jhh = Jane Hamsher
chss = Christy Hardin Smith
kry = Christy (because cry is a word)
cnl = C&L
cnll = Crooks & Liars
wapo = WaPo
wapoo = Washington Post
it goes on . . .
jmto = John Amato
I’ve gotta go play paintball at Nikegrad with people a third my age, so I’m going OT with this - to help show that not only Blue America, but aspects of the GOP are capable of reform, if pushed hard enough:
This Friday Alaska Gov Sarah Palin scored what might be the biggest victory for a major state politician in Alaska history. In the wake of arrests or pleas by a plethora of Alaska GOP luminaries who have attempted to thwart her every move for years, the bill she proposed three years ago, to replace ex-governor Frank Murkowski’s oil company-backed package, passed the Alaska legislature with only one dissenting vote.
A stunning victory for homegrown GOP organizations attempting to throw out their own party’s criminals.
An anomaly?
IIRC, I think Jane and Christie let the mods decide what is and what is not an appropriate comment.
rat bastahd @ 75
Sestak has been pretty good. He supported both McGovern’s bill and the hate crimes bill. How about if we have him back on soon for a chat and hear his point of view. Right now he rates as the 20th most progressive member of the House and he is certainly one of the best-voting– albeit not “perfect”– of all the freshmen.
From the Tracy Press:
LindaR @ 77
Do one for Digby. She just joined the Blue America coalition. We’re 4 blogs now: FDL, C&L, DWT and Digby.
TeddySanFran @ 81
perris @ 68
This from the last thread:
emptywheel @ 193
Ask very tough questions. And tell these people, should they be invited to appear here, while rudeness is not tolerated, hard inquiries are. Have them sign refund agreements. Sort of like breach of contract stuff. And let them know, that should they not honor their stated intentions, they’ll receive the fullest wrath they most certainly and richly will deserve. And as for this guy Carney? Keep on him. Set an example! Give him hell, from here on in.
howieklein @ 82
dby = Digby
It’s so nice not to have to capitalize things.
usa = USA
usatty US Attorney
abug Abu Ghraib (I can never remember how to spell it)
and how about orvs = hors d’oeuvres ha.
LindaR @ 86
May I respectfully suggest you designate abug for Abu Gonzo and have aghr for Abu Ghraib. Just seems so much more fitting somehow.
LindaR @ 86
have to risk teh zugzarat, so sorry but this one is missing
perris=perris
McNerney’s vote seems heartfelt and reasoned (is that oxymoronic?)
He seemed to know his McGovern vote would displease, and he was ready to explain it. Carney, on the other hand, spouted reichwing talking points at us after stalling on any explanation at all. And Carney made promises — to BlueAmericans to get their support and to ProjectVoteSmart, in answering their survey.
And Carney isn’t responding to requests for a refund.
To me, there’s a big difference. I stand with Howie on Jerry — shall we start using St Ronnie’s expression?:
Trust, but Verify
dakine01 @ 87
ha! Well, abugz = Abu Gonzales. Will that work for you?
I am interested in principle. And non-liars. Regardless of political party. If members of my party, the Democratic Party don’t measure up, then call them on it. I do not like expediency.
LindaR @ 90
;})
Linda, Don’t suppose you have YouThinkLeft YTL?
I think the lesson is to move on to other candidates when we are thoroughly disappointed with the ones we tried. If Carney can get elected without our support, at least we have a democrat in a formerly republican district. We had two goals last time: replace horrible republicans with bearable democrats, and help progressives. In both Carney’s case and McNerney’s case, we hit at least one goal, and we still have hopes for McNerney.
Thanks for the correction on Sestak Howie. I remember reading something about a couple of Sestak votes and how he was going blue dog on us. Glad to be wrong. One of the things that makes you such an unbelievable asset!
TexBetsy @ 93
I don’t — but I just added for to the next update. ytl will be YTL and ytll will be YouThinkLeft.
The program is modifiable, too. You can add and change things.
howieklein @ 31