zed?

ZeD☼

WoW dakine you are FAST today, congrats!

Hi Howie!

Hi Howie!

Well at least you’ll have something to point to now when interviewing prospective Blue America candidates. “Don’t be Chris Carney.”

Nice legacy he’s gonna have.

Good morning, Teddy. Any word from Carney?

lolo @ 3

WoW dakine you are FAST today, congrats!

As always, dumb luck. I had just come back to the front page and the prior thread was still up top, but after I had clicked to it, the new showed up so I clicked in and got lucky.

Hi Howie -

Thanks for moderating with our DCCC friends yeaterday – and thanks for your work with Blue America

kirk murphy @ 8

Hi Howie -

Thanks for moderating with our DCCC friends yesterday – and thanks for your work with Blue America

I don’t remember if it was you or not, but someone asked what everyone thought about the DCCC guys’ chat. I was hoping to wait until today for that discussion– along with the ones about the next step regarding Carney and what to do about McNerney.

Jane Hamsher @ 5

Hi Howie!

Well at least you’ll have something to point to now when interviewing prospective Blue America candidates. “Don’t be Chris Carney.”

Nice legacy he’s gonna have.

Yes. It sounds as though you’re doing exactly the right thing, by being very public about their defection.

howieklein @ 9

kirk murphy @ 8

Hi Howie -

Thanks for moderating with our DCCC friends yesterday – and thanks for your work with Blue America

I don’t remember if it was you or not, but someone asked what everyone thought about the DCCC guyss’ chat. I was hoping to wait until today for that discussion– along with the ones about the next step regarding Carney and what to do about McNerney.

Nope, not me. I did see the question, but I liked your decision to defer the discussion.

I didn’t give much money, as I don’t have much to give. But I feel betrayed and angered. So what to do? Withdraw support for those who stray too far and run candidates against folks like Carney. You’ve got lots to do, for sure, but if you hear of anyone in Carney’s district who’s progressive and interested in running… I’m just saying.

howieklein @ 9

kirk murphy @ 8

Hi Howie -

Thanks for moderating with our DCCC friends yesterday – and thanks for your work with Blue America

I don’t remember if it was you or not, but someone asked what everyone thought about the DCCC guys’ chat. I was hoping to wait until today for that discussion– along with the ones about the next step regarding Carney and what to do about McNerney.

I was lurking in that one and thought people asked AMAZING questions. Not sure if the answers were exactly what I wanted to hear, but I know we asked many hours worth.

lolo @ 2

ZeD☼

Is this kind of like catching a foul ball at a baseball game?

lilybelle @ 12

I didn’t give much money, as I don’t have much to give. But I feel betrayed and angered. So what to do? Withdraw support for those who stray too far and run candidates against folks like Carney. You’ve got lots to do, for sure, but if you hear of anyone in Carney’s district who’s progressive and interested in running… I’m just saying.

The problem with a district like PA-10 is that it is very, very backward and red. If Carney loses, it won’t be to a progressive but to a Republican who will be considerably worse than he is. That’s partially why I want to tread carefully.

But Charlie Dent’s not a Rubber Stamp war-mongering Republican, Howie. Didn’t you hear? He led the brave GOP House mission to the White House solarium to speak truth to power, in front of Condi, Gates, Karl, and Hadley. Surely this bravery [he voted against the supplemental the very next day, as did all who accompanied him] and courage to stand up to BubbleBoy means he’s exempt to a BlueAmerica challenge?
/snark

Howie,
In a small defense for the folks you ID’d as “reactionaries” in your blog, most of them are pretty reflective of their districts. As an example is Ben Chandler from the district I grew up in in Kentucky. That district is a purplish shade tending to the red. He replaced Ernie Fletcher after Fletcher’s lies got him elected governor of Kentucky.

Their votes are understandable, even if disappointing to many of us. The electoral whores on the other hand are totaly fair game. Although even there, I can understan Udall voting as he did since he is attempting to win a red senate seat in a purple state.

Anyway, my $.02

Voting with Bush on Iraq is no small matter. What could be a more important vote? I’m pissed, and just got a letter from McNerny yesterday. In it he said, “I also look forward to addressing the important issues of our day, such as: the war in Iraq, health care, education and putting an end to our nation’s dependence on foreign oil.”

So he addresses the Iraq war by voting for Bush’s massacre?

TeddySanFran @ 16

But Charlie Dent’s not a Rubber Stamp war-mongering Republican, Howie. Didn’t you hear? He led the brave GOP House mission to the White House solarium to speak truth to power, in front of Condi, Gates, Karl, and Hadley. Surely this bravery [he voted against the supplemental the very next day, as did all who accompanied him] and courage to stand up to BubbleBoy means he’s exempt to a BlueAmerica challenge?
/snark

He should be a particular target. He will be attacked from the right for daring to even like he seemed to oppose the Regime, and our target is a real progressive. I hope we can have her on within a month or so.

Hi Howie, I don’t regret donating to Jerry. Hey, consider the alternative!

As for Carney, I’m not really concerned with getting my money back. Let him be an example of those who have unearned our support.

I’d like to see us concentrate more on primary challenges than we did in 2006. But we need to be smart about it.

howieklein @ 6

Good morning, Teddy. Any word from Carney?

de nada.

The next step is a snailmail to his campaign address, which I post here for those who’d like to join me in protesting Carney’s vote:

Carney for Congress
Post Office Box A
Clarks Summit, PA 18411

I don’t know if this address works; I’m sending a registered letter on Monday and will report back!

Kitt @ 14

lolo @ 2

ZeD☼

Is this kind of like catching a foul ball at a baseball game?

good analogy but we must not talk of the zed when we have our beloved guest Howie lets behave for Jane. : (

dakine01 @ 17

Howie,
In a small defense for the folks you ID’d as “reactionaries” in your blog, most of them are pretty reflective of their districts. As an example is Ben Chandler from the district I grew up in in Kentucky. That district is a purplish shade tending to the red. He replaced Ernie Fletcher after Fletcher’s lies got him elected governor of Kentucky.

Their votes are understandable, even if disappointing to many of us. The electoral whores on the other hand are totaly fair game. Although even there, I can understan Udall voting as he did since he is attempting to win a red senate seat in a purple state.

Anyway, my $.02

That’s the kind of calculus we have to weigh. Carney is a case unto himself because he blatantly lied and tricked us out of money and effort on his behalf. That’s why I like Teddy’s approach– to demand that he return the dough so we can help canddiates who do support the things he promised he would support when we donated to his campaign.

I guess we just need to have really duck-proof questions for the Blue America candidates with their understanding that before we contribute, we all have a clear understanding on the important issues.

As someone who has only been around FDL a month or two, I am still not 100% clear on what blue America is, what exactly the aim is, etc. Are threads like this a PAC strategy session in addition to being a fundraiser? When I click on Blue America up top I get somewhat of an idea, but still not 100%.

howieklein @ 15

lilybelle @ 12

I didn’t give much money, as I don’t have much to give. But I feel betrayed and angered. So what to do? Withdraw support for those who stray too far and run candidates against folks like Carney. You’ve got lots to do, for sure, but if you hear of anyone in Carney’s district who’s progressive and interested in running… I’m just saying.

The problem with a district like PA-10 is that it is very, very backward and red. If Carney loses, it won’t be to a progressive but to a Republican who will be considerably worse than he is. That’s partially why I want to tread carefully.

I defer to your judgment. You’re one of the folks who made the Democratic takeover of Congress possible. But how do we flex our muscles and make our folks recognize that they’ve got to respond to our issues or face consequences?

lolo @ 21

Kitt @ 14

lolo @ 2

ZeD☼

Is this kind of like catching a foul ball at a baseball game?

good analogy but we must not talk of the zed when we have our beloved guest Howie lets behave for Jane. : (

I’m all in.

From Carl Nyberg at 112 (11:40) on the Van Hollen/Vogel chat:

How did people feel about this interaction with Rep. Van Hollen?

McNerney’s vote is a real disappointment.

But all along, there have been candidates whose progressive creds seemed pretty weak getting lots of support from the left blogosphere.

Aravosis and Kos supported Scott Kleeb, whose position on LGBT rights was less than palatable.

I think the blogs and grass roots progrssives are going to win some bets (Jim Webb) and lose some (Carney). Donors will know that the Blue America folks are more likely to be progressive than not. But the candidates and donors will know that Howie Klein won’t be fooled twice.

That’s what counts, not whether you gave someone the benefit of the doubt.

The other thing is that it’s likely that Carney’s district is way more progressive than that vote.

re TSF asking for a refund: I didn’t know you could do that. I thought politics was sort of like Vegas – you get taxed on your winnings but can’t write off your losses. Considering how inherently dishonest most politicians tend to be, your vetting process has worked out far better than most, Howie.

Back in 1978, Anchorage real estate developer and big Democratic Party contributor Pete Zamarello, when complaning to me about Sen. Mike Gravel’s actions after Zamerello had filtered and screened tens of thousands Mike’s way in return for legislation which Gravel then refused to craft, told me in Z’s heavy Greek accent “Feeel, Feeeel, Feeeeel (Z’s way of saying ‘Phil’)!! Politicians are ALL alike. You bribe them and you bribe them and you bribe them and they STILL do whatever they want!”

ifthethunderdontgetya @ 20

Hi Howie, I don’t regret donating to Jerry. Hey, consider the alternative!

As for Carney, I’m not really concerned with getting my money back. Let him be an example of those who have unearned our support.

I’d like to see us concentrate more on primary challenges than we did in 2006. But we need to be smart about it.

Donna Edwards is taking on Al Wynn in Maryland. Pach and I spent a few days with her this week. What an amazing woman! I hope to have her back here at FDL soon. I’m looking closely at the David Scott district in suburban Georgia. It’s a very blue district and he’s a reactionary dog. The woman who runs CBC Monitor is going to help us on this one. (Pach and I spent some time with her too.)

‘I thought blogger on down with tyrrany web site had an interesting soloution.In a similar situation,he contacted his credit card company and requested a refund stating false advertising for product purchased.Refund arrived in a week.

dakine01 @ 17

Howie,
In a small defense for the folks you ID’d as “reactionaries” in your blog, most of them are pretty reflective of their districts. As an example is Ben Chandler from the district I grew up in in Kentucky. That district is a purplish shade tending to the red. He replaced Ernie Fletcher after Fletcher’s lies got him elected governor of Kentucky.

Their votes are understandable, even if disappointing to many of us. The electoral whores on the other hand are totaly fair game. Although even there, I can understan Udall voting as he did since he is attempting to win a red senate seat in a purple state.

Anyway, my $.02

ifthethunderdontgetya @ 20

Hi Howie, I don’t regret donating to Jerry. Hey, consider the alternative!

As for Carney, I’m not really concerned with getting my money back. Let him be an example of those who have unearned our support.

I’d like to see us concentrate more on primary challenges than we did in 2006. But we need to be smart about it.

I agree with both these comments. I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect a congressman to get out too far in front of his constituents; if he does, he may have a short stay. That having been said, there’s also a difference between playing to the constituents (or where you think they are) and breaking a campaign promise.

I’m much more concerned about the Democrats retaining control than absolute ideological purity.

howieklein @ 23

dakine01 @ 17

Howie,
In a small defense for the folks you ID’d as “reactionaries” in your blog, most of them are pretty reflective of their districts. As an example is Ben Chandler from the district I grew up in in Kentucky. That district is a purplish shade tending to the red. He replaced Ernie Fletcher after Fletcher’s lies got him elected governor of Kentucky.

Their votes are understandable, even if disappointing to many of us. The electoral whores on the other hand are totaly fair game. Although even there, I can understan Udall voting as he did since he is attempting to win a red senate seat in a purple state.

Anyway, my $.02

That’s the kind of calculus we have to weigh. Carney is a case unto himself because he blatantly lied and tricked us out of money and effort on his behalf. That’s why I like Teddy’s approach– to demand that he return the dough so we can help canddiates who do support the things he promised he would support when we donated to his campaign.

Totally agree with the assessment of Carney. When the lies are THAT blatant, the liar needs to be called out and taken down if possible. It would be nice to see integrity return to a dirty business and the liars shown that there are consequences to the lies, even if not made under oath (Hel-LO Scooter. And Abu. And Kyle. And Monica. And so one ad infinitum).

TexBetsy @ 25

As someone who has only been around FDL a month or two, I am still not 100% clear on what blue America is, what exactly the aim is, etc. Are threads like this a PAC strategy session in addition to being a fundraiser? When I click on Blue America up top I get somewhat of an idea, but still not 100%.

Yep; we’re not doing a fundraiser per se this weekend, just a strategy session and I was hoping to get an idea from the community about how to procede. I think you’ve got it pretty well figured out, Tex.

What do you think of Mike Arcuri. I liked his votes last week. He’s a blue dog which I know isn’t looked upon kindly here but when I researched it a bit all it talked about was fiscal responsibility (which I can’t fault). So, tell me about this ‘blue dog’ designation. Can I not relax and know that my rep is going to be a true democrat?

on the phone with Jerry McNerney right now!!!! He just called.

did McNerny vote no on both bills? or just no on the McGovern bill?

Total shunning for Carney. Contact orgs and candidates who might be likely supporters/attendees at his fundraisers and ask them to shun him as well.

We’ve had six years of lies from BushCo–we need better from our team.

And in that vein [see my epu-ed ratty thoughts at the end of the last thread]: on 11/7 Americans clearly voted to restore honor and integrity to our democracy. We owe ‘em no less.

And Chee-knee can give all the manipulative self-serving speeches he wants to our military.
The truth is, Iraq is Bush’s disgrace. It is Bush’s dishonor.

America’s honor will be restored globally and in every hometown neighborhood when we bring our troops home–alive and whole.

howieklein @ 37

on the phone with Jerry McNerney right now!!!! He just called.

put him on speaker! : )

Do you have any comments on the Max Sawicky post over at TPM Cafe (I found it via Atrios)

You do a great job with Blue America, and I think what he (and indirectly, Jonathan Chait) are saying is so completely wrong and off base. It is how we ended up with John Kerry as a Presidential candidate because the powers that be declared Kerry to be “electable”.

What I see happening with the “conservative” dems is that, once in Washington, they start listening to the Democratic lobbyists, as well as the K Street people, who will follow whoever has the majority.

When Sherrod Brown voted in favor of torture, I asked for my money back, and he sent it. The fifty bucks itself I am sure made no difference to his campaign. But somebody managing the money had to think about it, get approval, write the check, put it in the mail. Actions. Making them give the money back is good. They care so much about the money, just because of how things work.

Two Indiana Democrats, Joe Donnelly and Brad Ellsworth, posted statements about their NO votes on the Hate Crimes bill. Their arguments are standard issue, but the commenters are respectful, with terrific counter-arguments. For those of you who sometimes find yourself in backed into cul-de-sac discussions of “special rights” and “criminalizing thought,” Bilerico’s commenters provide hefty responses.

It’s a shame Carney hasn’t availed himself of a forum like the two Hoosiers have. While both their “blogs” are statements without any interaction, at least Ellsworth’s press secretary appeared to say the comments would be read by the Congressman and considered carefully. That’s pretty fair, I thought.

If Carney’s staff reads this, I recommend a sit-down here. We’ve shown we can be respectful — and we deserve some answers.

Howie,
Thanks for your work with Blue America! I really appreciated the alternatives that Blue America and ActBlue provided to DCCC last year for funding progressive candidates. As a result, I contributed not one dime to DCCC.

I especially liked the menu of candidates that these sites offered– a kind of “one stop shopping” where I could pick the candidates I wanted to support, allocate payment, and pay for my choices in one place.

Will Blue America and ActBlue collaborate on the 2008 elections?

Bob in HI

IMO… It isn’t so much that these people are voting as those in their districts would want them to as it is their misrepresentation to those who contributed to get them elected.

loosetooth @ 32

‘I thought blogger on down with tyrrany web site had an interesting soloution.In a similar situation,he contacted his credit card company and requested a refund stating false advertising for product purchased.Refund arrived in a week.

I wouldn’t recommend this. Seriously, I had an error on my bill once. Took 6mos to get it off and then a year or 2 later I got a letter from a collection agency demanding payment. Another 6 mos of letter writing. I think it’s over now, but who knows?

solai @ 36

What do you think of Mike Arcuri. I liked his votes last week. He’s a blue dog which I know isn’t looked upon kindly here but when I researched it a bit all it talked about was fiscal responsibility (which I can’t fault). So, tell me about this ‘blue dog’ designation. Can I not relax and know that my rep is going to be a true democrat?

Blue dog is a play on the old adage from the south of a “Yellow dog democrat,” i.e., I’ll voote for a yellow dog running as a dem before I vote for a Republican. I believe it was during the St Ray-guns years that it became a descriptor for southern dems and those in Redubyacan competitive districts. It was a way to set themselves apart from the Dirty Eff’in hippie/San Francisco/Barney Frank “values” librul dem. Not necessarily a positive term.

But IIRC, as we were talking the other night, Arcuri is in a fairly moderate district even though his competition claimed to be a conservative.

McNerney’s vote is a BIG disappointment. I donated to him through Blue America, and his victory over that criminal Pombo was personally my favorite of the entire 06 elections. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt, but it’s difficult to think of giving him any money ever again.

solai @ 46

loosetooth @ 32

‘I thought blogger on down with tyrrany web site had an interesting soloution.In a similar situation,he contacted his credit card company and requested a refund stating false advertising for product purchased.Refund arrived in a week.

I wouldn’t recommend this. Seriously, I had an error on my bill once. Took 6mos to get it off and then a year or 2 later I got a letter from a collection agency demanding payment. Another 6 mos of letter writing. I think it’s over now, but who knows?

That would not make for good publicity for a politician to be complaining that he was sending collection agencies after campaign contributins cancelled because of lies.

MayDaze @ 33

I’m much more concerned about the Democrats retaining control than absolute ideological purity.

I agree. Trashing democrats for being lousy democrats doesn’t make much strategic sense if they’re running against even more rotten republicans.

spurious @ 49

MayDaze @ 33

I’m much more concerned about the Democrats retaining control than absolute ideological purity.

I agree. Trashing democrats for being lousy democrats doesn’t make much strategic sense if they’re running against even more rotten republicans.

At the same time … we need to take our party back.

rat bastahd @ 47

McNerney’s vote is a BIG disappointment. I donated to him through Blue America, and his victory over that criminal Pombo was personally my favorite of the entire 06 elections. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt, but it’s difficult to think of giving him any money ever again.

I just got off the phone with him. He said he struggled with the vote but is convinced that the supplemental strategy is the right way to go and that it will force more and more Republicans to buckle and do the right thing. He felt the other bill was counterproductive and would have played into Bush’s hands. I don’t agree with him personally but I feel certain of his sincerity. I know ending the war is a huge priority for him.

loosetooth @ 32

‘I thought blogger on down with tyrrany web site had an interesting soloution.In a similar situation,he contacted his credit card company and requested a refund stating false advertising for product purchased.Refund arrived in a week.

The problem with this approach is that my credit card charge is with ActBlue. I hate to put those hard-working folks through a dispute, since I have no dispute with them.

Sending prospective BA candidates to read the Carney story is a great idea.

Howie, your work to make BlueAmerica more than just a campaign-season influence is the key here, imo. Maybe one of the things we could ask of our candidates is that they commit to returning to the Lake (or other “venue”) periodically–a hard commitment, not a vague one–to answer to us directly for their votes?

I think, overall, the answer to what we should do in cases like Carney’s is–what you’re already doing. Each instance will have a different context and will require discussion. With Carney specifically, I’m curious: do we have any kind of relationship with his staff? The really smart ones would know that avoiding us is exactly the wrong move regardless of our public expressions of outrage, if they’re actually interested in our support–which I don’t think is obvious. We were disposable on the Hate Crimes bill; we’re disposable at will. That’s the message I got. Otherwise, you would have received a call from Carney beforehand, saying “I made this promise and I intend to keep it but I’m in a bind on this vote; can we talk about how to handle it?”

Can we do a two-pronged thing where we keep up the public demands for accountability and try for discussions with Carney and staff to understand whether they’re repudiating us? I really want to know.

One thing that I think will serve us well in time to come is an organized archive where we collect the whole story of every candidate we support, what worked and what didn’t, so that we have data that anyone can go back and look at when questions like this come up.

Thank you again for your incredible hard work. Keep lettting us know how we can help.

TexBetsy @ 51

spurious @ 49

MayDaze @ 33

I’m much more concerned about the Democrats retaining control than absolute ideological purity.

I agree. Trashing democrats for being lousy democrats doesn’t make much strategic sense if they’re running against even more rotten republicans.

At the same time … we need to take our party back.

Amen.

TexBetsy @ 50

At the same time … we need to take our party back.

Agreed. I see it as a painfully slow process – we have to retain control of Congress while slowly weeding out the reactionaries and educating the public.

spurious @ 50

MayDaze @ 33

I’m much more concerned about the Democrats retaining control than absolute ideological purity.

I agree. Trashing democrats for being lousy democrats doesn’t make much strategic sense if they’re running against even more rotten republicans.

Double agreed. Unless we’re talking about Joe Lieberman.

What are Fire-Pups thinking about the new, not-very-well-publicized “free” trade bill that Pelosi and Rangel just announced Thursday?

Howie, the problem with progressives, and smart people in general, is that as they get information, they may adjust their views. That may well be the situation with McNerney. I have pointed out on several threads that we have a real problem leaving, and may have to fight our way out. It seems plausible that something short of immediate withdrawal may be appropriate, something that might enable us to provide a bit of stability without exposing our people to so much danger.

So, to me, the issue remains the same, if he is smart, we have a reasonable chance of getting votes more to our liking in the future. Let’s watch and see. There is plenty of time to change our minds later.

Like I mentioned, the Tracy Press interviewed me about Jerry’s vote yesterday. The story just went up on their website.

I was profoundly disappointed by McNerney’s vote, but I agree that he merits the benefit of the doubt, at least for now. not quite a mulligan, however.

Slightly OT but maybe Carney needs to learn his audience, like Brownback didn’t in Wisconsin. Story from MSNBC.

Slightly OT: John McCain’s campaign doesn’t seem to be doing too well.

Is Carney’s and McNerney’s vote related to not supporting Pelosi and supporting Hoyer?

MayDaze @ 56

TexBetsy @ 50

At the same time … we need to take our party back.

Agreed. I see it as a painfully slow process – we have to retain control of Congress while slowly weeding out the reactionaries and educating the public.

Right. And the key point is that we need to retain control of congress. If it goes back to the republicans, reform will a dead horse.

I understand the pragmatic argument of more conservative Democrats running in more conservative districts, but that doesn’t excuse the hypocrisy, misrepresentation, and outright lying.

I also too wonder at what point exactly do they cease to be Democrats. If they can’t bring themselves to vote with their party on the central issue of bringing a close to the disaster of the Iraq war, then how other than in conveniently borrowing the name of Democrat to run for office do they in any way, shape, or form represent anything or anyone in the Democratic Party?

Howie, I’ve turned my blogging utility into a downloadable. Anybody who gets it today can have 10% off and I will donate another $5 to the Blue America PAC for every one sold.

Then you can write
dwtt for Down With Tyranny!
fdll for Firedoglake
ewl for emptywheel
fwom for Phoenix Woman
hkk for Howie Klein
tsfoo for TeddySanFran
pachh for Pachacutec

and

trex for TRex

plus about 7,000 more — many of them non-Firedoglake-related! ha.

If anyone is interested, you can click my link, and put in “Howie” for the code to get the discount and so I know to send the $$ to the Blue America PAC.

To the mods: If this is not appropriate, PLEASE delete this comment!!

pioneer111 @ 63

Is Carney’s and McNerney’s vote related to not supporting Pelosi and supporting Hoyer?

I don’t think so. Do you have something in mind?

off topic but this is pretty huge…another ag that was fired but this one says it was definately to stop his corruption investigation and that he has fired directly by the president and he has a letter from teh president’s lawyer

Warner said he refused to resign when asked by the Justice Department, responding that he took his direction from President Bush.

“Next thing I know, I get a letter from the president’s counsel, Harriet Miers, saying I’d been fired, no reason given,” Warner recounted in a telephone interview.

teh story

solai -

Tks for the NC vote linky on the downstairs thread.

perris @ 68

off topic but this is pretty huge…another ag that was fired but this one says it was definately to stop his corruption investigation and that he has fired directly by the president and he has a letter from teh president’s lawyer

Warner said he refused to resign when asked by the Justice Department, responding that he took his direction from President Bush.

“Next thing I know, I get a letter from the president’s counsel, Harriet Miers, saying I’d been fired, no reason given,” Warner recounted in a telephone interview.

have a link?

LindaR @ 66

Howie, I’ve turned my blogging utility into a downloadable. Anybody who gets it today can have 10% off and I will donate another $5 to the Blue America PAC for every one sold.

Then you can write
dwtt for Down With Tyranny!
fdll for Firedoglake
ewl for emptywheel
fwom for Phoenix Woman
hkk for Howie Klein
tsfoo for TeddySanFran
pachh for Pachacutec

and

trex for TRex

plus about 7,000 more — many of them non-Firedoglake-related! ha.

If anyone is interested, you can click my link, and put in “Howie” for the code to get the discount and so I know to send the $$ to the Blue America PAC.

To the mods: If this is not appropriate, PLEASE delete this comment!!

What about Jane and Christy?

TexBetsy @ 71

have a link?

linkypoo

howieklein @ 68

pioneer111 @ 63

Is Carney’s and McNerney’s vote related to not supporting Pelosi and supporting Hoyer?

I don’t think so. Do you have something in mind?

No, I just wondered. I don’t understand what happened and am just speculating. Thanks for your answer.

Thanks Howie! If I truly believed the Dem caucus had a plan to both end this despicable war ASAP and to land a death blow to the GOP it would be easier to be supportive of votes such as the one McNerney just made.

I understand the slow nature of solving political issues, esp. with these two outdated reactionary political parties with which we are stuck, however, with the war and global warming we don’t have that kind of time imho.

And I know both of these issues are very important to McNerney so I may give him a pass on this one, however, not so with votes like the one Carney made. I gave money to Sestak too and can’t say that I’m very happy with his votes.

If I was to give any solution it would be that maybe we could work hard to put up/support progressive Dems in the primaries to run against the Carney-type reactionaries that failed us. I certainly understand the sentiment that even a blue dog is better than a Repuke. However, if they knew that we would be working towards the goal (of retaking OUR progressive party), in fact, against them next time if they fell into the trap of Beltway thinking then maybe we’d gain more clout. Anyways, just thinking out loud…

pioneer111 @ 63

Is Carney’s and McNerney’s vote related to not supporting Pelosi and supporting Hoyer?

Excellent question. Hoyer voted against the McGovern bill IIRC.

howieklein @ 72

LindaR @ 66
What about Jane and Christy?

jhh = Jane Hamsher
chss = Christy Hardin Smith
kry = Christy (because cry is a word)

cnl = C&L
cnll = Crooks & Liars

wapo = WaPo
wapoo = Washington Post

it goes on . . .
jmto = John Amato

I’ve gotta go play paintball at Nikegrad with people a third my age, so I’m going OT with this – to help show that not only Blue America, but aspects of the GOP are capable of reform, if pushed hard enough:

This Friday Alaska Gov Sarah Palin scored what might be the biggest victory for a major state politician in Alaska history. In the wake of arrests or pleas by a plethora of Alaska GOP luminaries who have attempted to thwart her every move for years, the bill she proposed three years ago, to replace ex-governor Frank Murkowski’s oil company-backed package, passed the Alaska legislature with only one dissenting vote.

A stunning victory for homegrown GOP organizations attempting to throw out their own party’s criminals.

An anomaly?

IIRC, I think Jane and Christie let the mods decide what is and what is not an appropriate comment.

rat bastahd @ 75

Thanks Howie! If I truly believed the Dem caucus had a plan to both end this despicable war ASAP and to land a death blow to the GOP it would be easier to be supportive of votes such as the one McNerney just made.

I understand the slow nature of solving political issues, esp. with these two outdated reactionary political parties with which we are stuck, however, with the war and global warming we don’t have that kind of time imho.

And I know both of these issues are very important to McNerney so I may give him a pass on this one, however, not so with votes like the one Carney made. I gave money to Sestak too and can’t say that I’m very happy with his votes.

If I was to give any solution it would be that maybe we could work hard to put up/support progressive Dems in the primaries to run against the Carney-type reactionaries that failed us. I certainly understand the sentiment that even a blue dog is better than a Repuke. However, if they knew that we would be working towards the goal (of retaking OUR progressive party), in fact, against them next time if they fell into the trap of Beltway thinking then maybe we’d gain more clout. Anyways, just thinking out loud…

Sestak has been pretty good. He supported both McGovern’s bill and the hate crimes bill. How about if we have him back on soon for a chat and hear his point of view. Right now he rates as the 20th most progressive member of the House and he is certainly one of the best-voting– albeit not “perfect”– of all the freshmen.

From the Tracy Press:

Down With Tyranny Web site founder Howie Klein on Friday said McNerney “voted wrong,” but he said his faith in McNerney had not been shaken and that he would “give him the benefit of the doubt,” as long as the vote is no harbinger of a new trend.

“The people who donated money to him and the people who volunteered for him didn’t expect that they would be buying a congressman,” Klein said.

McNerney relied last year on left-leaning bloggers — sometimes influential and usually anonymous online activists and opinion writers — to draw volunteers and donations into his campaign from inside and outside of the district.

Supporters during a two-hour online chat with McNerney on March 31 at the Fire Dog Lake Web site were reminded 16 times to donate to his campaign, and McNerney later hit the phones to raise donations. It was the frantic final day of a federal reporting period, and he raised $16,750, filings show.

LindaR @ 77

howieklein @ 72

LindaR @ 66
What about Jane and Christy?

jhh = Jane Hamsher
chss = Christy Hardin Smith
kry = Christy (because cry is a word)

cnl = C&L
cnll = Crooks & Liars

wapo = WaPo
wapoo = Washington Post

it goes on . . .
jmto = John Amato

Do one for Digby. She just joined the Blue America coalition. We’re 4 blogs now: FDL, C&L, DWT and Digby.

TeddySanFran @ 81

From the Tracy Press:

Supporters during a two-hour online chat with McNerney on March 31 at the Fire Dog Lake Web site were reminded 16 times to donate to his campaign…

That must have been Jacquie!

perris @ 68

off topic but this is pretty huge…another ag that was fired but this one says it was definately to stop his corruption investigation and that he has fired directly by the president and he has a letter from teh president’s lawyer

Warner said he refused to resign when asked by the Justice Department, responding that he took his direction from President Bush.

“Next thing I know, I get a letter from the president’s counsel, Harriet Miers, saying I’d been fired, no reason given,” Warner recounted in a telephone interview.

teh story

This from the last thread:

emptywheel @ 193

Hugh @ 156

Lou Costello @ 147

Yet another purged U.S. Attorney?

In the comments at thinkprogress, there are indications that Karl Warner might have been too over the top even for Republicans. I think that some US attorneys who should have been fired are now going to hitch their wagons to the I was purged too meme. We are going to have to go through them one by one to see where the truth lies (no pun intended).

Warner is almost certainly the second of the two USAs Jim Comey described firing. And there’s one more that left just after Comey did who is probably a problem as well.

And thanks to those upthread for the kind comments. I didn’t look at the CSPAN stuff yet.

Ask very tough questions. And tell these people, should they be invited to appear here, while rudeness is not tolerated, hard inquiries are. Have them sign refund agreements. Sort of like breach of contract stuff. And let them know, that should they not honor their stated intentions, they’ll receive the fullest wrath they most certainly and richly will deserve. And as for this guy Carney? Keep on him. Set an example! Give him hell, from here on in.

howieklein @ 82

LindaR @ 77

howieklein @ 72

LindaR @ 66
What about Jane and Christy?

jhh = Jane Hamsher
chss = Christy Hardin Smith
kry = Christy (because cry is a word)

cnl = C&L
cnll = Crooks & Liars

wapo = WaPo
wapoo = Washington Post

it goes on . . .
jmto = John Amato

Do one for Digby. She just joined the Blue America coalition. We’re 4 blogs now: FDL, C&L, DWT and Digby.

dby = Digby

It’s so nice not to have to capitalize things.

usa = USA
usatty US Attorney
abug Abu Ghraib (I can never remember how to spell it)

and how about orvs = hors d’oeuvres ha.

LindaR @ 86

May I respectfully suggest you designate abug for Abu Gonzo and have aghr for Abu Ghraib. Just seems so much more fitting somehow.

LindaR @ 86

howieklein @ 82

LindaR @ 77

howieklein @ 72

LindaR @ 66
What about Jane and Christy?

jhh = Jane Hamsher
chss = Christy Hardin Smith
kry = Christy (because cry is a word)

cnl = C&L
cnll = Crooks & Liars

wapo = WaPo
wapoo = Washington Post

it goes on . . .
jmto = John Amato

Do one for Digby. She just joined the Blue America coalition. We’re 4 blogs now: FDL, C&L, DWT and Digby.

dby = Digby

It’s so nice not to have to capitalize things.

usa = USA
usatty US Attorney
abug Abu Ghraib (I can never remember how to spell it)

and how about orvs = hors d’oeuvres ha.

have to risk teh zugzarat, so sorry but this one is missing

perris=perris

McNerney’s vote seems heartfelt and reasoned (is that oxymoronic?)

He seemed to know his McGovern vote would displease, and he was ready to explain it. Carney, on the other hand, spouted reichwing talking points at us after stalling on any explanation at all. And Carney made promises — to BlueAmericans to get their support and to ProjectVoteSmart, in answering their survey.

And Carney isn’t responding to requests for a refund.

To me, there’s a big difference. I stand with Howie on Jerry — shall we start using St Ronnie’s expression?:
Trust, but Verify

dakine01 @ 87

LindaR @ 86

May I respectfully suggest you designate abug for Abu Gonzo and have ahgr for Abu Ghraib. Just seems so much more fitting somehow.

ha! Well, abugz = Abu Gonzales. Will that work for you?

I am interested in principle. And non-liars. Regardless of political party. If members of my party, the Democratic Party don’t measure up, then call them on it. I do not like expediency.

LindaR @ 90

dakine01 @ 87

LindaR @ 86

May I respectfully suggest you designate abug for Abu Gonzo and have ahgr for Abu Ghraib. Just seems so much more fitting somehow.

ha! Well, abugz = Abu Gonzales. Will that work for you?

;})

Linda, Don’t suppose you have YouThinkLeft YTL?

I think the lesson is to move on to other candidates when we are thoroughly disappointed with the ones we tried. If Carney can get elected without our support, at least we have a democrat in a formerly republican district. We had two goals last time: replace horrible republicans with bearable democrats, and help progressives. In both Carney’s case and McNerney’s case, we hit at least one goal, and we still have hopes for McNerney.

Thanks for the correction on Sestak Howie. I remember reading something about a couple of Sestak votes and how he was going blue dog on us. Glad to be wrong. One of the things that makes you such an unbelievable asset!

TexBetsy @ 93

Linda, Don’t suppose you have YouThinkLeft YTL?

I don’t — but I just added for to the next update. ytl will be YTL and ytll will be YouThinkLeft.

The program is modifiable, too. You can add and change things.

howieklein @ 31

ifthethunderdontgetya @ 20

Hi Howie, I don’t regret donating to Jerry. Hey, consider the alternative!

As for Carney, I’m not really concerned with getting my money back. Let him be an example of those who have unearned our support.

I’d like to see us concentrate more on primary challenges than we did in 2006. But we need to be smart about it.

Donna Edwards is taking on Al Wynn in Maryland. Pach and I spent a few days with her this week. What an amazing woman! I hope to have her back here at FDL soon. I’m looking closely at the David Scott district in suburban Georgia. It’s a very blue district and he’s a reactionary dog. The woman who runs CBC Monitor is going to help us on this one. (Pach and I spent some time with her too.)

Oh, Donna! I remember from last year, she’s the feisty one with the amazing smile.

OT- Looks like Patrick McHenry may turn out to be another closeted Republican hypocrite! This is amazing since he’s one of the half dozen most extreme right-wing loons in the whole extreme right-wing loony-tune party.

I do not believe Senator Clinton is the best Democrat for the job of president. But I will say this for the Senator, when she says ‘if you don’t like my position on the Iarq war or my vote on it; vote for someone else’, I respect that, and I will vote for someone else.

masaccio @ 94

I think the lesson is to move on to other candidates when we are thoroughly disappointed with the ones we tried. If Carney can get elected without our support, at least we have a democrat in a formerly republican district. We had two goals last time: replace horrible republicans with bearable democrats, and help progressives. In both Carney’s case and McNerney’s case, we hit at least one goal, and we still have hopes for McNerney.

Good summation. It looks like the consensus

On Middle East policy, Hillary is an uncloseted Democratic neocon. On this issue, the Senator is a Republican.

Donna Edwards came so close. Gah! A reminder that things take time and the fight does go on.

These Rahm Emanuel “Demublicans” have got to go!

I’m not in your little club here, just offering my two cents: Republican-lite is not the flavor I’m looking for in my Democrats.

When they turn out to vote in ways that don’t serve the interests of the American people, when they vote with Republicans on Hate Crimes and the Iraq War; then they not only deserve to lose our support, they should be held accountable for those votes in any way we can do so.

Request refunds on donations, certainly.

Run primary opposition candidates against them.

Take out blog ads to expose their wrong headed voting.

Speak out on blogs and with your neighbors.

Participate in protests.

My guess is, protesting will begin to pick up again as the current ’summer of war’ drags on.

howieklein @ 60

Like I mentioned, the Tracy Press interviewed me about Jerry’s vote yesterday. The story just went up on their website.

Wow. Quick turnaround. What is Tracy Press? I thought it was pretty red out there, though that may have been before the recent influx of people who work but can’t afford to live in the Bay Area.

howieklein @ 98

OT- Looks like Patrick McHenry may turn out to be another closeted Republican hypocrite! This is amazing since he’s one of the half dozen most extreme right-wing loons in the whole extreme right-wing loony-tune party.

Click through Howie’s link to this one.

McHenry is quite the doofus.

Republicans don’t make me angry. Some of my fellow “Democrats” do.

Want to improve the Democratic Party? Work hard to get rid of the DLC. And those Dems who associate with it.

howieklein @ 98

OT- Looks like Patrick McHenry may turn out to be another closeted Republican hypocrite! This is amazing since he’s one of the half dozen most extreme right-wing loons in the whole extreme right-wing loony-tune party.

That’s a lotta men moving in and out of the Congressman’s residence in a very short period of time.

Hi HOWIE!

Hi Firepups!

I don’t know what to do about Carney, but while I was oversleeping this morning I dreamed up a little plan to counter Jack Kingston’s smarmy rebuttal to Robert Greenwald that Jane posted yesterday…

I hope there is a roots group in GA. Someone needs to spread that clip virally; in fact I think a little grassroots video editing/adding is in order. According to OpenSecrets.org, Kingston’s 2005/06 campaign, General Dynamics was the second largest Company contributor to get him elected. WAR PROFITEERS, ANYONE? (Lawyers and Lobbyists were the #1 and #2 Industries, respectively. Color me surprised…NOT)

I bet there is some creative people out there that could put together an “Instructional” video for the soldier’s and their families… Or, even easier: start an “DID YOU KNOW?” letter to the editor-writing campaign to their local papers.

spurious @ 104

howieklein @ 60

Like I mentioned, the Tracy Press interviewed me about Jerry’s vote yesterday. The story just went up on their website.

Wow. Quick turnaround. What is Tracy Press? I thought it was pretty red out there, though that may have been before the recent influx of people who work but can’t afford to live in the Bay Area.

Tracy is a small city in CA-11 and the Press is the main newspaper there. It has traditionally leaned Republican. Jerry told me he feels they’ve been giving him fair and balanced coverage (in the tradition sense of the term, not the Fox perversion of it).

TeddySanFran @ 108

howieklein @ 98

OT- Looks like Patrick McHenry may turn out to be another closeted Republican hypocrite! This is amazing since he’s one of the half dozen most extreme right-wing loons in the whole extreme right-wing loony-tune party.

That’s a lotta men moving in and out of the Congressman’s residence in a very short period of time.

Pizza delivery.

Jacqrat said:

According to OpenSecrets.org, Kingston’s 2005/06 campaign, General Dynamics was the second largest Company contributor to get him elected. WAR PROFITEERS, ANYONE?

I am shocked, SHOCKED!

As for me, when it comes to the Democratic Party, my party, I think a little political purity is long over due. I want to know precisely where on the issues those I give money to and vote for, stand. There is for me, no wiggle-room on this.

allan_in_upstate @ 111

TeddySanFran @ 108

howieklein @ 98

OT- Looks like Patrick McHenry may turn out to be another closeted Republican hypocrite! This is amazing since he’s one of the half dozen most extreme right-wing loons in the whole extreme right-wing loony-tune party.

That’s a lotta men moving in and out of the Congressman’s residence in a very short period of time.

Pizza delivery.

Land shark.

LindaR @ 114 says:

Land shark.

fins to the left, fins to the right…

I’ve only donated to two candidates through BlueAmerica, Ned Lamont and Jerry McNerney. These dollars were important to me and I thought long and hard about the candidates before I chose them. Got a thank you letter in the mail from McNerney, which was a touch of class and was proud that I supported him. Neither are in my district.

I realize he can spin his reasons for this vote and sound reasonable, but I am truly stunned and disappointed. I just don’t know what else to say – it makes no sense.

allan_in_upstate @ 57

spurious @ 50

MayDaze @ 33

I’m much more concerned about the Democrats retaining control than absolute ideological purity.

I agree. Trashing democrats for being lousy democrats doesn’t make much strategic sense if they’re running against even more rotten republicans.

Double agreed. Unless we’re talking about Joe Lieberman.

Who is an independent.

In the end, it is us, individually, who must take responsibility for those candidates we support with money and votes.

For those who care about unions, this is a distributor of clothing made only in union shops. We got our first order in this week. Good quality, and much of it currently on sale.

dakine01 @ 115

LindaR @ 114 says:

Land shark.

fins to the left, fins to the right…

My tiger shark fight last weekend in Georgia

Two wrongs make a right?

Phil K @ 58

What are Fire-Pups thinking about the new, not-very-well-publicized “free” trade bill that Pelosi and Rangel just announced Thursday?

Free trade with whom?

Trash is trash. Republican or Democrat.

Union made? I do not like NAFTA, CAFTA, the DLC, the Third Way, Rahm or the Clintons.

greenwarrior @ 117

allan_in_upstate @ 57

spurious @ 50

MayDaze @ 33

I’m much more concerned about the Democrats retaining control than absolute ideological purity.
————

I agree. Trashing democrats for being lousy democrats doesn’t make much strategic sense if they’re running against even more rotten republicans.

Double agreed. Unless we’re talking about Joe Lieberman.

Who is an independent.

But wasn’t in spring of 2006.

The angry left-wing blogs were hammered in the MSM for daring to oppose Joementum in the primary.
It was going to rip the party apart.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 123

Union made? I do not like NAFTA, CAFTA, the DLC, the Third Way, Rahm or the Clintons.

100% union made

Bush goes to a primary school to talk to the kids to get a little PR.
After his talk he offers question time. One little boy puts up his hand and George asks him his name.

” Stanley,” responds the little boy.

“And what is your question, Stanley?”

“I have 4 questions:

First, why did the USA invade Iraq without the support of the UN?
Second, why are you President when Al Gore got more votes?
Third, whatever happened to Osama Bin Laden?”
Fourth, why are we so worried about gay-marriage when 1/2 of all
Americans don’t have health insurance?”

Just then, the bell rings for recess. George Bush informs the kiddies that they will continue after recess.

When they resume George says, “OK, where were we? Oh, that’s right, question time. Who has a question?”

Another little boy puts up his hand. George points him out and asks him his name.

“Steve,” he responds.

“And what is your question, Steve?”

“Actually, I have 6 questions.
First, why did the USA invade Iraq without the support of the UN?
Second, why are you President when Al Gore got more votes?
Third, whatever happened to Osama Bin Laden?
Fourth, why are we so worried about gay marriage when 1/2 of all
Americans don’t have health insurance?
Fifth, why did the recess bell go off 20 minutes early?
And sixth, what the hell happened to Stanley

Oklahoma kiddo @ 121

Two wrongs make a right?

often

I don’t know how the expression “two wrongs don’t make a right” came about but there are surely times two wrongs do make a right

for instance if someone put bush or abu under the same interrogation “techniques” they use on others, that would certainly be right

McNerney spent loads of campaign time talking about his reason for running — his son who was/is serving in Iraq supposedly pleading with him to get into the race until he relented. It didn’t seem like a play for sympathy or PR spin – I thought he was making a great sacrifice since he was already a hugely successful businesman doing something valuable with wind energy.

An active environmentalist who spent his days actually doing something about it, plus a smart anti-war candidate who made clear he had a personal interest in protecting our troops and bringing them home. Hey, a twofer! How could I go wrong?

FEH. It’s enough to make a person shut down and spend their money on chocolate.

So there are degrees of acceptable political badness?

Jenny from the Blog @ 128

McNerney spent loads of campaign time talking about his reason for running — his son who was/is serving in Iraq supposedly pleading with him to get into the race until he relented. It didn’t seem like a play for sympathy or PR spin – I thought he was making a great sacrifice since he was already a hugely successful businesman doing something valuable with wind energy.

An active environmentalist who spent his days actually doing something about it, plus a smart anti-war candidate who made clear he had a personal interest in protecting our troops and bringing them home. Hey, a twofer! How could I go wrong?

FEH. It’s enough to make a person shut down and spend their money on chocolate.

Chocolate is good too. I approve.

masaccio @ 94

We had two goals last time: replace horrible republicans with bearable democrats, and help progressives. In both Carney’s case and McNerney’s case, we hit at least one goal, and we still have hopes for McNerney.

And retake congress. Voting conscience is what we should all hope to do, but sometimes one has to hold one’s nose and vote strategically. Democrats who voted for Ralph Nader (and there were a few in my family) may have bought us GWB in the first place.

TexBetsy -

Heh. :)

I’ve TeddySanFran @ 108

howieklein @ 98

OT- Looks like Patrick McHenry may turn out to be another closeted Republican hypocrite! This is amazing since he’s one of the half dozen most extreme right-wing loons in the whole extreme right-wing loony-tune party.

That’s a lotta men moving in and out of the Congressman’s residence in a very short period of time.

Speed Voting. Move in…register at new address…submit absentee ballot…move out………next

TexBetsy @ 131

Jenny from the Blog @ 128

McNerney spent loads of campaign time talking about his reason for running — his son who was/is serving in Iraq supposedly pleading with him to get into the race until he relented. It didn’t seem like a play for sympathy or PR spin – I thought he was making a great sacrifice since he was already a hugely successful businesman doing something valuable with wind energy.

An active environmentalist who spent his days actually doing something about it, plus a smart anti-war candidate who made clear he had a personal interest in protecting our troops and bringing them home. Hey, a twofer! How could I go wrong?

FEH. It’s enough to make a person shut down and spend their money on chocolate.

Chocolate is good too. I approve.

UUUMMMM!!!!! C-H-O-C-O-L-A-T-E!!!!

How would I even know if I am still registered to vote in the states where I lived prior to Texas?

Are there any heterosexual republicans?

TexBetsy @ 131

Chocolate is good too. I approve.

Chocolate is wonderful– as long as you get the raw kind and mix it with agave. The kind you get in stores is filled with sugar which, I’m afraid, is deadly.

Yes, Howie took me to a restaurant in LA where they served chocolate icecream without sugar or fat. It was amazing!

OT
Iglesias, McCay and so forth are on CSPAN1 now, this is from a Wednesday program at Seattle U, I believe.
a discussion w audience, questions being asked

Adam (Art Director at DownWithTyranny) @ 139

Yes, Howie took me to a restaurant in LA where they served chocolate icecream without sugar or fat. It was amazing!

What restaurant? I’m in L.A. Was it a raw food place?

TexBetsy @ 136

How would I even know if I am still registered to vote in the states where I lived prior to Texas?

I believe new state is SUPPOSED to notify old state but really have never bothered to check. I just register at new location when I move (recently as part of getting new driver’s license) and go on and find out who is representing me NOW. Never crossed my mind to try to vote at old location as well as at new.

It was a raw foods restaurant

Elliott @ 139

OT
Iglesias, McCay and so forth are on CSPAN1 now, this is from a Wednesday program at Seattle U, I believe.
a discussion w audience, questions being asked

Thanks, just tuned in.

TexBetsy @ 127

And sixth, what the hell happened to Stanley

707!

Howie, what was the name?

Adam -

Julianos or Leaf or RawVolution? Spill!

Two wrongs make a right? Bull.

Adam (Art Director at DownWithTyranny) @ 139

Yes, Howie took me to a restaurant in LA where they served chocolate icecream without sugar or fat. It was amazing!

Jane loved it too. It’s called CRU.

Houston calling Howie

One argument that’ll be used against our vulnerable freshman in 2008 is that they “voted in lockstep with Nancy Pelosi. Why do we need our own Congressman if ours votes with her 100% of the time?” the rightwingers will say. I’m not proposing that this is a logical argument — but it’s a sound bite some Democrats may need to avoid.

If a “no” vote on the McGovern bill (which despite its gratifying amplitude was symbolic nonetheless) gave Jerry McNerney the argument he needs to counter the “Pelosi-clone” charge in his district, that’s okay by me. Anti-war Democrats voted for the supplemental, remember, because they had their YES vote on McGovern to point to. Symbols cut both ways.

Had McNerney’s vote been crucial to passage of McGovern, I would feel differently.

Two wrongs make a right. “often”. I don’t think so.

Their food was amazing, EVERYTHING!!!! Nothing was cooked and while you ate you knew it was healthy and not fattening (not that I need to worry about fat but health yea).

Adam (Art Director at DownWithTyranny) @ 139

Yes, Howie took me to a restaurant in LA where they served chocolate icecream without sugar or fat. It was amazing!

I’m telling ya, this Out of Africa theory is all wrong, humans arose in close conjunction with chocolate; find the roots, the origin, of chocolate and you’ll find our own roots.

Oh, looks like it’s in Larchmont. I live at the beach so that’s like driving to San Francisco for dessert. Never mind, but thanks! :)

I posted the whole Bill Maher Real Time from last night.

Bill’s opening monologue touches on the L.A.P.D. beatings in MacArthur Park, the fires in Griffith Park, Dick Cheney’s involvement with the D.C. prostitution scandal (Hint:Dusty Foggo/Duke Cunningham), and Tony “The Peoples Poodle” Blair.
Then:
Richard Engel live via satellite from Beirut Lebanon tells Bill that Iraqis are not on the American political time line vis-a-vis “SEPTEMBER”
The next segment has Bill immediately asking Frank Luntz what the sudden use of the prefix “DR.” is all about. Dr. Luntz then tells Arianna Huffington that she is very angry, Bill tells comedian Paula Poundstone that he is still trying to get over the clown suit that she is wearing and Luntz convinces everyone that he is a stark raving lunatic.
n which “War in Iraq” cheerleader Chris Hitchens speaks about religion and mysteriously seems to refer to Karl Rove as “DR. ROVE” …twice.
The one/two combination platter of Hitchens and Luntz give you an idea of the sort of wind-bag that passes for right-wing/conservative/ Neo-con/Straussian blah blah blah….these days.
Then NEW RULES Bill Maher would like Youtube uploaders not to edit out the nice things he has to say about the L.A.P.D.

NEW RULES:
http://tinyurl.com/2m8wl7

Part 1:
http://tinyurl.com/25lwze

THE MADNESS OF FRANK LUNTZ (Part 2)
http://tinyurl.com/2cdfhy

Chris Hitchens Mumbles “Dr. Rove”) TWICE:
http://tinyurl.com/ysno5b

Jacqrat @ 109

Hi HOWIE!

Hi Firepups!

I don’t know what to do about Carney, but while I was oversleeping this morning I dreamed up a little plan to counter Jack Kingston’s smarmy rebuttal to Robert Greenwald that Jane posted yesterday…

I hope there is a roots group in GA. Someone needs to spread that clip virally; in fact I think a little grassroots video editing/adding is in order. According to OpenSecrets.org, Kingston’s 2005/06 campaign, General Dynamics was the second largest Company contributor to get him elected. WAR PROFITEERS, ANYONE? (Lawyers and Lobbyists were the #1 and #2 Industries, respectively. Color me surprised…NOT)

I bet there is some creative people out there that could put together an “Instructional” video for the soldier’s and their families… Or, even easier: start an “DID YOU KNOW?” letter to the editor-writing campaign to their local papers.

Wow. I just want to apologize for the atrocious spelling and grammar errors in this comment. I truly wasn’t awake yet and should have edited more carefully. Oh, and howie? Re: your #83? Bite me!

So how are we going to bring this Carney prick down?

I strongly believe in the rule of law. By definition I cannot subscribe to the notion that two wrongs, or for that matter, a thousand-million wrongs make a right.

Adam (Art Director at DownWithTyranny) @ 153

Their food was amazing, EVERYTHING!!!! Nothing was cooked and while you ate you knew it was healthy and not fattening (not that I need to worry about fat but health yea).

Adam I love gourmet raw food; it’s delicious!!! I ate it exclusively for a while, even made my own pates, etc. But it’s a little bit hard on your stomach over time. And some of the places overdo the garlic bigtime.

But yeah, I agree. I just do it in small doses now.

howieklein @ 149

Adam (Art Director at DownWithTyranny) @ 139

Yes, Howie took me to a restaurant in LA where they served chocolate icecream without sugar or fat. It was amazing!

Jane loved it too. It’s called CRU.

Yeah but they don’t serve Howie Breakfasts.

allan_in_upstate @ 111

TeddySanFran @ 108

howieklein @ 98

OT- Looks like Patrick McHenry may turn out to be another closeted Republican hypocrite! This is amazing since he’s one of the half dozen most extreme right-wing loons in the whole extreme right-wing loony-tune party.

That’s a lotta men moving in and out of the Congressman’s residence in a very short period of time.

Pizza delivery.

(cue funky wah-wah guitar) BOW CHICKA-WOW-WOW!

It is hard on your stomach? You know I buy chocolate Soy milk and it has been hurting my tummy too

And also, it’s not necessarily non-fattening. They use tons of macadamia nuts for crusts of pizza and desserts and other things. So you can definitely put on pounds if your not careful.

Oh what the heck. In 100 years we’ll all be dead.

Adam (Art Director at DownWithTyranny) @ 158

So how are we going to bring this Carney prick down?

I hope, first, to bring him around. His vote to override the Bush veto of the Hate Crimes bill would go a long way towards forgiveness in my book. He needs a conversion. This is a theshold moment, Congressman Carney — step through!

The raw foods didnt hurt my stomach though.

Speaking of food I am hungry.

Adam (Art Director at DownWithTyranny) @ 163

It is hard on your stomach? You know I buy chocolate Soy milk and it has been hurting my tummy too

That’s been the experience of me and my friends. I just know I can’t eat it exclusively anymore. All things in moderation, I guess. I go with what my body tells me. And sometimes it cries out for pea soup. :)

Jenny from the Blog @ 163

And also, it’s not necessarily non-fattening. They use tons of macadamia nuts for crusts of pizza and desserts and other things. So you can definitely put on pounds if your not careful.

Oh what the heck. In 100 years we’ll all be dead.

We tend to eat too many convenience and processed foods. But vegetarian. Need to get the young’uns to cook more.

Jenny from the Blog @ 160

Adam (Art Director at DownWithTyranny) @ 153

Their food was amazing, EVERYTHING!!!! Nothing was cooked and while you ate you knew it was healthy and not fattening (not that I need to worry about fat but health yea).

Adam I love gourmet raw food; it’s delicious!!! I ate it exclusively for a while, even made my own pates, etc. But it’s a little bit hard on your stomach over time. And some of the places overdo the garlic bigtime.

But yeah, I agree. I just do it in small doses now.

Bein’ a southern born and bred, I just can’ts give up my fried foods. Fried chicken especially. Although I have made some small concessions to age and health by using canola oil instead of crisco or lard. :})

I have cream of mushroom soup, I think I will make it and I have a nice piece of Salmon I may cook

… and mashed potatoes. NO gravy though, I’m veggie.

TeddySanFran @ 151

One argument that’ll be used against our vulnerable freshman in 2008 is that they “voted in lockstep with Nancy Pelosi. Why do we need our own Congressman if ours votes with her 100% of the time?” the rightwingers will say. I’m not proposing that this is a logical argument — but it’s a sound bite some Democrats may need to avoid.

If a “no” vote on the McGovern bill (which despite its gratifying amplitude was symbolic nonetheless) gave Jerry McNerney the argument he needs to counter the “Pelosi-clone” charge in his district, that’s okay by me. Anti-war Democrats voted for the supplemental, remember, because they had their YES vote on McGovern to point to. Symbols cut both ways.

Had McNerney’s vote been crucial to passage of McGovern, I would feel differently.

I’m of similar sympathies. you say it so well.

jt@156
Just bought tickets to see Bill Maher. So looking forward to it.

There are so many choices for vegetarians these days you don’t feel like you’re sacrificing anything. And I don’t really eat mashed potatoes, ha, or pasta, or bread. But I’m fully satisfied so I dunno. We’ve got a lot of great stores here on the Westside, the Co-Op, Whole Foods, Wild Oats, and you can get just about anything!

OK, guess I’ve worn out this subject. Have a good day, y’all.

TexBetsy @ 127

Bush goes to a primary school to talk to the kids to get a little PR.
After his talk he offers question time. One little boy puts up his hand and George asks him his name.

” Stanley,” responds the little boy.

“And what is your question, Stanley?”

“I have 4 questions:

First, why did the USA invade Iraq without the support of the UN?
Second, why are you President when Al Gore got more votes?
Third, whatever happened to Osama Bin Laden?”
Fourth, why are we so worried about gay-marriage when 1/2 of all
Americans don’t have health insurance?”

Just then, the bell rings for recess. George Bush informs the kiddies that they will continue after recess.

When they resume George says, “OK, where were we? Oh, that’s right, question time. Who has a question?”

Another little boy puts up his hand. George points him out and asks him his name.

“Steve,” he responds.

“And what is your question, Steve?”

“Actually, I have 6 questions.
First, why did the USA invade Iraq without the support of the UN?
Second, why are you President when Al Gore got more votes?
Third, whatever happened to Osama Bin Laden?
Fourth, why are we so worried about gay marriage when 1/2 of all
Americans don’t have health insurance?
Fifth, why did the recess bell go off 20 minutes early?
And sixth, what the hell happened to Stanley

That is hysterical!!!!

JT @ 156

[znip]
I posted the whole Bill Maher Real Time from last night.

you rawk!

dakine01 @ 170

Bein’ a southern born and bred, I just can’ts give up my fried foods. Fried chicken especially. Although I have made some small concessions to age and health by using canola oil instead of crisco or lard. :})

I was just in Georgia. I was shocked by all that fried everything. I blogged about that last night in the same place where I told my shark story. It was all fried and meat and processed. I got back to L.A. and fasted for 3 days

[Open shark story link closed by moderator]

In honor of the Howie’s breakfast Jane mentioned, may I offer the idea of a Spinach salad with raw spinach, some strawberries chunks/pieces (maybe some cantoloupe as well), and onion slices. You can add croutons if you wish. I even add bacon bits as I’m still a meat eater. Oil and vinegar for dressing if you need such.

The spinach, strawberries and onions really do mix quite well and tastily.

I feel the same toward Carney as I do Lieberman.

1,514 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN GOEZ ON AND ON AND..

WHAT THE HELL DO I DO ABOUT THE “BLOADS” AND “CATAGORY” SCROLLS THAT ARE CUTTIN’ INTO THE TEXT ON THE RIGHT MARGIN??!!!

[Mod:Try refreshing the page.]

howieklein @ 179

dakine01 @ 170

Bein’ a southern born and bred, I just can’ts give up my fried foods. Fried chicken especially. Although I have made some small concessions to age and health by using canola oil instead of crisco or lard. :})

I was just in Georgia. I was shocked by all that fried everything. I blogged about that last night in the same place where I told my shark story. It was all fried and meat and processed. I got back to L.A. and fasted for 3 days

Back when I was growing up in KY, it was either fried or smoked. The aged country hams from the smoke house are a particular delicacy.

Last night, we made Old Bay Shrimp fest (you can get the recipe on google) OMG!!! We served it with Cajun red beans and rice, and a cocktail sauce spiked liberally with prepared horseradish…Ahhhh….it was great!! (and beer and tequila) :)

Oklahoma kiddo @ 181

I feel the same toward Carney as I do Lieberman.

Lieberman undercut the party on the media and started believing that the whole world centered on him. We have yet to see if Carney will turn out as bad as a Lieberman or a Zell Miller. Dishonest and calculating, yes, but he isn’t an unintelligent man and we’ll have to see how low he sinks. Obviously he’s disqualified from being endorsed by Blue America again.

Ha, ha!

RedState is turning on the House GOP leadership for replacing John Doolittle with Ken Calvert on Appropriations — dday at calitics calls this the “token corrupt Californian seat on House Appropriations.”

howieklein @ 149

Jane loved it too. It’s called CRU.

When I get fabulously rich I want to hire a raw food chef to prepare all my meals. Howie took me to Cafe Gratitude in San Francisco. I really loved it.

New thread.

NorskeFlamethrower @ 182

1,514 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN GOEZ ON AND ON AND..

WHAT THE HELL DO I DO ABOUT THE “BLOADS” AND “CATAGORY” SCROLLS THAT ARE CUTTIN’ INTO THE TEXT ON THE RIGHT MARGIN??!!!

reload (hard refresh?) and inside voice?

hi norske!

Re: Carney. They have peppered all of the departments with Bushies, why wouldn’t they pepper the Democratic party with them too?! Do you think that might be what happened or did money get to him?

TeddySanFran @ 186

Ha, ha!

RedState is turning on the House GOP leadership for replacing John Doolittle with Ken Calvert on Appropriations — dday at calitics calls this the “token corrupt Californian seat on House Appropriations.”

hilarious!

greenwarrior (#117)

Lieberwurst is not an Independent. He is a Dependent. He is dependent on AIP*C and the GOP …..

From OH-18…..

My freshman representative, Zack Space, voted no on the McGovern bill.
I called and talked to a very nice aide in DC. The reason was that there were no benchmarks for the Iraqis.
I told her how much we liked Zack, how fortunate we are to at last have a good, Democratic rep, but to please realize that people are very angry that they voted for change, and it’s not happening. This area was so pro-Bush, and now, no more. I just urged her to tell him not to seek the “perfect” bill because a lot of soldiers’ lives may be lost by then.

howieklein @ 120

dakine01 @ 115

LindaR @ 114 says:

Land shark.

fins to the left, fins to the right…

My tiger shark fight last weekend in Georgia

Hi Howie, my family went for summer vacation to Jekyll Island from when I was little until after college. I caught some sharks (little ones) off the beach there. I’ve got some alligator stories, as well…

Oklahoma kiddo @ 159

I strongly believe in the rule of law. By definition I cannot subscribe to the notion that two wrongs, or for that matter, a thousand-million wrongs make a right.

Do you, for instance, believe in the rule of law in the “Patriot” Act that abolishes habeas corpus? Or the one that condones torture?

i’m for going easy on mcnerny this time. every congressman needs to know that we are watching and that we are serious about our issues. at the same time we need to understand that they have a lot of things to balance and consider and we are just part of that equation. if we want to have a lasting impact and not be one hit wonders we need to accept the fact that the world doesn’t revolve around us any more than it does fuckwad. we do need to keep our focus and not become wishy washy (no real danger there i’d say) but at the same time we must pick our battles carefully because nobody wins them all. that’s never happened and never will.

fahrender @ 192

greenwarrior (#117)

Lieberwurst is not an Independent. He is a Dependent. He is dependent on AIP*C and the GOP …..

Agreed! I cede to the gentleman at the fahr end.

greenwarrior @ 196

fahrender @ 192

greenwarrior (#117)

Lieberwurst is not an Independent. He is a Dependent. He is dependent on AIP*C and the GOP …..

Agreed! I cede to the gentleman at the fahr end.

The fahr left end I assume.

greenwarrior @ 195

Oklahoma kiddo @ 159

I strongly believe in the rule of law. By definition I cannot subscribe to the notion that two wrongs, or for that matter, a thousand-million wrongs make a right.

Do you, for instance, believe in the rule of law in the “Patriot” Act that abolishes habeas corpus? Or the one that condones torture?

I do not. Your move.

Yea, I know EPU’d but ….

I respect Jerry M very much and think he’ll make a great Congressman, but his explanation since the vote and his aides’ @ Calitics the other day re: the Iraq supplemental – against McGovern and for Obey is … as Colonel Potter used to say “Horsepucky.”

Jerry M told Howie @ 52 above

I just got off the phone with him. He said he struggled with the vote but is convinced that the supplemental strategy is the right way to go and that it will force more and more Republicans to buckle and do the right thing. He felt the other bill was counterproductive and would have played into Bush’s hands. I don’t agree with him personally but I feel certain of his sincerity. I know ending the war is a huge priority for him.

My reading of his explanation is that it was purely political

He said he struggled with the vote but is convinced that the supplemental strategy is the right way to go and that it will force more and more Republicans to buckle and do the right thing.

A strategy?

He felt the other bill was counterproductive

Counterproductive to what?

His aide – sorry can’t remember her name – said something to the effect that he’s a scientist and as such he methodically looks at the bills on which he votes, and that the Obey bill contained benchmarks to hold the Iraqi’s accountable (I could be mistaken about the last part, and if I am, I apologize), well, sorry to drive a truck thru that statement, but, let’s look at the bill for which he did vote …

Re: the “benchmarks”

[…] So, what’s left in the bill that Bush doesn’t like? Benchmarks!

But there are two problems with this. Bush DOES like them. And they’re NOT benchmarks. A benchmark is a standard of excellence against which other items are measured. Or it’s a measure of progress toward a goal. The so-called benchmarks in the House bill are nothing of the sort.

Here’s the relevant section:

“SEC. 1710. (a) BENCHMARKS- Notwithstanding any other provision of law, fifty percent of the funds appropriated by this Act for assistance for Iraq under the headings `Economic Support Fund’ and `International Narcotics and Law Enforcement’ shall be withheld from obligation until the President certifies to the Committees on Appropriations and Foreign Relations of the Senate and the Committees on Appropriations and Foreign Affairs of the House of Representatives that the Government of Iraq has—”

Then the bill lists five (count em!) so-called “benchmarks,” starting with:

“(1) enacted a broadly accepted hydro-carbon law that equitably shares oil revenues among all Iraqis;”

[…] Far from equitably sharing oil revenues, it hands the bulk of them over to foreign (probably largely US and British) corporations. This is the number one “benchmark”, the theft of the oil of a nation we aggressively attacked and occupied. […]

“(2) adopted legislation necessary for the conduct of provincial and local elections, taken steps to implement such legislation, and set a schedule to conduct provincial and local elections;”

This is ludicrous. The majority of Iraqis have already backed ending the occupation. A majority of the members of their current parliament have signed a bill to end the occupation. And we’re going to threaten to end the occupation unless they hold elections and act like a democracy? […]

“(3) reformed current laws governing the de-Baathification process to allow for more equitable treatment of individuals affected by such laws;”

Oh, great, we’re also going to threaten to leave unless they undo destructive laws that we imposed on them. Of course, we’ll tell them what the new laws should be. […]

“(4) amended the Constitution of Iraq consistent with the principles contained in Article 137 of such constitution; and”

This involves a process of amending “their” Constitution. We are demanding that they complete it or else… we’ll end our occupation of their country.

“(5) allocated and begun expenditure of $10,000,000,000 in Iraqi revenues for reconstruction projects, including delivery of essential services, on an equitable basis.”

Hmmm. So, after destroying their country, occupying it for years, slaughtering perhaps a million citizens, driving millions more to flee the country, and generally ruining their society, while dumping hundreds of billions of US dollars into war profiteering corporations pretending to reconstruct Iraq, we’re going to demand that the Iraqis shell out $10 billion to pay for the reconstruction themselves. […]

Click the link above to read the entire breakdown by David Swanson

You think he’s mistaken about the Iraqi oil law? Click here

Jerry should run from this vote as fast as he can, because it’s not a vote against the occupation – it’s a vote to try to hang on the Republicans. And if he keeps reminding people of his poor explanation, he’ll find that he’s turning the people who believed in him away, and that in 2008 when he needs help, he won’t find it

Three congressmen endorsed by Blue America abandoned the Democrats and voted with the Bush Regime: Carney again, Ciro Rodriguez… and Jerry McNerney.

Ciro? Not in the last election if I’m not mistaken. In fact I think his Blue America “donate” thing was disabled, no?

As someone who lives in PA, I can only say: don’t trust the politicians here. Not one of them. Arlen Specter sets the role model: Lie, and then lie some more. A few mayors might be all right (I don’t know them all), but if we’re talking about pols at the national level: they are liars. And scum. Wouldn’t trust them to referee a midget-league softball game.

Just so you know.

howieklein @ 149

Adam (Art Director at DownWithTyranny) @ 139

Yes, Howie took me to a restaurant in LA where they served chocolate icecream without sugar or fat. It was amazing!

Jane loved it too. It’s called CRU.

I see it’s on Griffith Park BLvd. Okay after the fire?

I never have to wonder about my two senators or my congressman.
I know where they stand on the issues.
My congressman is a republican shill for Hassert. Manzullo. The man is a wooden head. totally in line with the regime and Hassert and a unremarkable congressman.
How depressing.
However, I have great sentors. One is the number two in senate, Dick Durbin
The other, dont’ know if you know, is running for president and his name is Barack Obama.

As a Bucknell grad, I took special delight in Carney’s win.

As an Ohioan, I also am sensitive to those swing/Republican districts we took last fall. AND WANT TO HOLD ON TO.

Carney’s is such a district.

So is Zack Space’s here in Ohio.

And Charlie Wilson’s as well.

I’m sure Rahm has told them that Job 1 is reelection.

And that means keeping the big red circle off your back.

By whatever means necessary.