
Christopher Christie, the US Attorney for New Jersey, told PBS’ Gwen Ifill last night that the six men he described as “Islamic extremists” or “jihadists” who were arrested for plotting to kill American soldiers at Fort Dix were “inspired” by al Qaeda and al Qaeda writings. The FBI Agent in charge of the arrests told the nation we had just “dodged a bullet.” Maybe many bullets.
The major media predictably reported this as given to them by the government officials; except for KO’s raised eyebrow and a little snark, no one questioned whether this might be one of the many suspicious “coincidences” in which a new “terrorist threat” emerges just in time to divert attention from the latest White House scandal, such as the illegal use of political loyalty oaths in the hiring and firing of DoJ employees. The benefit of having a new scandal every week is that there are no timing coincidences any more. Any time is a good time for a diversion.
Because of men like Alberto Gonzales and Karl Rove, the American people have less confidence in the Department of Justice and the men and women who still remain US Attorneys. We cannot be certain that the DoJ would not time the announcement of “terrorist” arrests for political reasons, especially when these suspects had been under surveillance for 16 months and been infiltrated by the FBI. We don’t know whether the timing had anything to do with a need to revive the shattered reputation of the Attorney General or those who oversee or vetted the selection of the remaining crop of US Attorneys. And it may have been only a coincidence that Mr. Christie used his appearance on the Newshour to warn Americans that “the war on terror is real” and we should see this as a wake up call on the need to be vigilant about Islamic extremists operating right here in the US. He did not warn about any other types of fanatics or ask us to think about how this group came to want to kill Americans.
There is no doubt that Americans need to be protected from violent extremists, even if they are a group of barely literate men who think Osama bin Laden is an inspiration but who apparently had no coherent plan for invading Fort Dix beyond a desire to kill soldiers and a knowledge gained from watching internet videos and delivering pizzas. Officials claimed that this group was dumb enough to ask a video store to upgrade their training videos to DVDs, and they were hoping to arm a full company of jihadists who would then take on a whole army at Fort Dix. This sounds completely delusional, but delusional people can be dangerous if armed and committed.
According to Reuters, federal authorities claimed the men “had amassed semi-automatic assault rifles, shotguns and handguns while trying to acquire the more sophisticated weaponry,” such a rocket propelled grenades. Of course, any one of us could have acquired the same arsenal under US gun laws, and no one would notice. That tells me that the 2nd Amendment is working extremely well, because these and other dangerous weapons can be acquired as easily as the two pistols Seung Hui Cho used to murder over thirty students and faculty at Virginia Tech.
While I’m assured by the demonstrated vigilance of the Justice Department, I am a little concerned about Bush’s and Cheney’s prediction that if we withdraw our troops from Iraq, al Qaeda will follow us home. We’re still in Iraq, just as the White House demanded, but if Mr. Christie is correct, it seems the “jihadists” are here anyway. Moreover, these apparently weren’t those Iraqi or Afghani terrorists we’re fighting to keep over there:
The men, aged 22 to 28, included three brothers born in the former Yugoslavia who ran a roofing business. One Jordanian-born suspect was a Philadelphia taxi driver and a Turkish-born man worked as a convenience store clerk.
USA Christie claimed these men were not members of any known al Qaeda group or directed by al Qaeda. They just wanted to be like them. They were also a bunch of crazed fanatics who were willing to kill innocent civilians, US agents or soldiers, as were Jim Jones or Timothy McVeigh or the Branch Davidians. Or this little group of “patriots” from Alabama that TRex highlighted in the previous post.
All this reminds us there is something seriously wrong with the Bush/Cheney logic and their strategic assessment. All that rhetoric about “them” “following us home” — what Richard Clarke calls the White House’s “puppy dog theory” — sounds pretty ludicrous, because it’s exactly backwards. Instead of worrying about al-Qaeda in Mesopotamia following us home, American policy should stop breeding wannabe terrorists here by what we’re doing there. We should worry that this Administration has an incoherent, and dangerously delusional understanding of the threat to America that bears no relationship to reality. And that’s the real danger to the country.
Photo credit: John Randolph/Reuters



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zed-dom?
Remember, according to Blair and Bush, the bombings in London had nothing to do with the war in Iraq, despite the fact that the bombers left video tape behind saying that the reason they did what they did was because of the war in Iraq.
Zed is a lolo number to get
Was it Kerry who said the terrorist threat was a policing matter–and got blasted by the chickenhawks and war profiteers–rather than a military matter?
Seems the Dix Six proved that out.
Pictures of Dick in “Eye-Rak” sure do denote progress.
I wonder if Dick expects them to follow him home?
Hey – when one goes downstairs to alert that there’s a new thread, and then comes back, the zero is gone.
It ain’t right, I tell ya.
Still, hopefully a sign of a coming day better than the last two…*s* & *g*
The reason the political Left in this country is dangerous is precisely because of posts like this which discount the danger that even a half dozen armed terrorists could do on a military base, even though there are 14000 troops who would not immediately think they were under attack in their own country. This post ignores the fact that the War in Iraq was not going on when OBL attacked the World Trade Center killing 3000 of our Citizens in a Pearl Harbor attack. Like a fire drill, you have to take each threat seriously because it might be real. Just like the Soviets could have lobbed nukes across the Arctic circle. We didn’t create Soviet totalitarianism any more than we create Islamic Fascism. The situation is there, and we must be alert to every threat. Even if it means folks like the political Left is inconvenienced. Even if it means there is corruption in procurement which has always existed and always will. You do what you have to survive. And the American People under President Bush, Vice President Cheney and either Rudy or Newt or Fred Thompson or even McCain will protect us and survive and thrive.
Each time there is an event like the Virginia Tech slayings, you hear government officials raising concerns over copycat crimes, precisely the point made against NBC airing the killer’s videos, in addition to fulfilling that sick man’s fantasy.
How is it when a group of wannabes imitates a loose affiliation of international terrorists, then, these same officials declare it’s because they’re members who’ve tracked us home, not because they also have several screws loose.
Georgesimian @ 2
Yep. Same pattern.
Instead of worrying about al-Qaeda in Mesopotamia following us home, American policy should
maybe be boots on the ground here?
The admin claims that terrists are coming into Iraq through Syria. Doesn’t that mean they can also get *out* of Iraq the same way? Thus being free to not follow us home, but rather to beat us home?
Even by the paranoid and delusional admin spin, the best policy, it would seem to me, would be to have a big fat army, right here in the U.S., watching and waiting for them.
It’s pretty clear that the “terrorists will follow us home” theory is simply a lie. It’s hard to imagine how spending a trillion dollars destablizing Iraq could help America in anyway whatsoever, especially in regards to protecting us.
When you say something like, we should put xrays at the ports, Repugs say that it’s too expensive. But I think it would cost less than the war in Iraq, and would protect us better than that. Nothing in justifying this war makes sense anymore.
Tell me again, how does having most of our armed forces and National Guard in Iraq helps protect us here at home?
So maybe BushCo cutting and running from Clinton’s cops program was yet another exactly wrong thing to do….
Christopher Christie, USA on CNN now talking about the Dix Six. Spreading the BushCo line. Who is Christie, besides a “loyal Bushie” of course….
busily shooting off his mouth as Fitz never did.
i want someone to ask christie how coordinated his statement was with the white house press office.
Liberty — you seem to be having an argument with someone else. The post acknowledges these groups are dangerous precisely because they are crazed, armed and committed. It says we have to protect ourselves from them. It does not argue that we created extremists, but does suggest that we provide a pretext for their anger.
If I’m a danger to the Republic, the Republic is safe, and you can relax. And don’t worry about whether we’ll defend you, because I already protected you from the Communists when I served in Viet Nam.
one of the many suspicious “coincidences” in which a new “terrorist threat” emerges just in time to divert attention from the latest White House scandal,…
Or maybe a 28 per cent JAR?
Mornin’ Scarecrow
Great post as usual.
“We’re still in Iraq, just as the White House demanded, but if Mr. Christie is correct, it seems the “jihadists” are here anyway.”
Logic is a mf’er, huh?
yo, liberty lee:
BOOOOO! you can crawl back under your bed now…
i am so sick and disgusted by the cowardice as displayed in the comment posted by ll. six years of republican misrule has reduced too many to trembling little pussies.
This does not compute. This is a country that LOVES guns. But then is terrified of “foreigners” with weapons?
You can’t have it both ways. Live by the sword, die by the sword.
Great post, Scarecrow.
I cant help but think of “the little boy who cried wolf” Wont we get more and more cynical if they keep manipulating us? Less vigilent?
Battle Royale:
Who has more ammo? Waxman with his subpoenaes, or the WH with safely stored-up canned terrist triumphs?
linda @ 18
There is no cowardice in recognizing we face a determined enemy who is trying to destroy Western Civilization as we know it. Franklin said that “vigilance is the eternal price of liberty”….
And let us not forget that Mr. Christie, ever willing to do the WH’s bidding, was the US Attorney who announced in September of last year an ‘investigation’ of Sen. Bob Menendez’s finances, coincidentally right when Menendez was in the middle of, at the time, a tight race against Republican Tom Kean Jr.
BTW, how’s that big investigation going there Chris? And did that keep YOU off the firing list?
snowbird42 @ 20
One of the things I appreciate about TRex’ prior post is his pointing out that we have dangerous delusional people we have to deal with all the time — and they’re not just Islamic radicals, but also other religious fanatics or just people who are seriously disturbed. The difference in how we perceive these different groups is important.
Franklin said that “vigilance is the eternal price of liberty”….
Did he also, by any chance, mention “Depends” for those who continually shit their pants on cue?
Interestingly enough, the “Islamic Militant” arrests did not come about from NSA wiretaps, Extraordinary Rendition or even torture. It seems good old fashion Police work, following up on a lead from a video strore clerk resulted in a success in the war on terror.
What does this say for all of these emergency executive powers that this (mis)administration claims they need to win the War on Terror?
Look Shiny Bright Object over here.
LibertyLee @ 22
All the more reason we should have our first responders and domestic police–from FBI to the hometown beat cop–getting maximum support from this administration instead of undermining with double super-secret political agendas and psy-ops to our own people.
Bush wasted his “youth” until his “reawakening.” He’s still living that out.
He’s wasted time. Wasted resources. Wasted lives.
All in the thrall of the Big Oil–war profiteers–neocon agenda. Now that’s an axis of evil.
Even is they were going to attack Fort Dix… that is not “innocent” civilians… these are the soldiers and face of the US government and not exactly innocent. It could be assumed that these nut cases thought they could kill some of the soldiers set to head off the Iraq to wage war on moslems.
I am a pacifist and don’t condone what they are alleged to have been planning… but wars fought among soldiers is how it should be done… leave the innocents out of it.
On the otherhand I would be willing to bet that these fellas were being “developed” by one of the intelligence agencies to do something like this… so that they could be busted. It is very convenient to foster these nutjobs so that when they need to do an arrest.. or stir up fear… or do a false flag op… they have them ready to go… on the shelf. This is far different than infiltrating actual revolutionary groups.
The Italian SISMI infiltrated the Brigadi Rosso and instigated the Bologna bombings which led to crackdowns and a shift to the right.
There was the Reichstag fire. The right ALWAYS resorts to these tactics to further their agenda of power and essentially what is fascism.
What happened to the Miami 6? They will probably be released.. but they served their propaganda purpose… no?
IrishJim @ 26
One need only to look at Homeland Security appropriations (and where that $$ ends up) to see why there is a perpetual War on Terra or a War on Drugs. What a farce!
LibertyLee @ 22
One of the problems we’re having is this notion that we face an existential threat from [who?]. I don’t expect us to agree on that. I believe the threat of extremist violence is real and needs to be dealt with — I feel the same about armed gangsters/drug dealers/nutcase militias etc — but I don’t believe the threat is existential.
And if we treat it as such, and proclaim the right to unilaterally invade countries and change their regimes, the people we apparently fear have a pretty convincing argument that it is we who pose the existential threat to them, and not the other way around. I’m waiting for the other side to be open to having that conversation; it might be helpful, but this notion that the left in American is a threat to America is not going to elicit much of a conversation, because it’s silly jibberish. I’m sitting here typing on a blog, not training to kill you.
kdh22 @ 29
I would point out that the President did not want a large bureaucracy. It was the Congressional Democrats in the Senate that forced a heavily unionized work force (”in the name of the 9/11 commission”) that the President did not want. He wanted a lean spy fighting agency…but the Dems wanted a pork supply for their Union allies, so he settled against his better judgement.
Well, I’m beginning to wonder if our armed forces aren’t being diverted “over there” to leave us vulnerable over here. Just who has a “private army” (Blackwater) and a get-away spot (sans extradition reciprocity) in South America? Clue: it’s not us. No, I am not wearing my tin-foil hat. I’m just trying to evolve a theory that fits the facts.
linda @ 18
Please don’t feed the troll(s). Remember, you are trying to argue with a 28% WingNut. If they have not awakened to what is going on around them yet, they never will.
SanderO has it right.
I wonder how many more “terrorist cells” are being “developed” to provide BushCo with future cover.
libertylee . . .
28% logical?
LibertyLee — “corruption in procurement”? What about the corruption in federal law enforcement, which put a huge amount of government resources toward pursuing bogus pre-election investigations of Democrats? Considering that these threats we have to be vigilant against have been stopped by law enforcement, don’t you think that’s significant?
Why do you see writing about overblown publicity of a half-baked plot as “dangerous,” but dismiss with a wave of your hand corruption of one of the very agencies that is supposed to protect us?
The existential threat comes from militant Islamic terrorism. It was spelled out in Tony Blankley’s excellent work “The West’s Last Chance: Will we win the Clash of Civilization”. I personally see it as more serious than even the Communist threat. I applaud your service in Vietnam and only regret that your country did not give you the honor you deserved or the will for victory we could have had.
Meanwhile as we watch our teevees avidly and with great fear, the great Cheney is off to the mid-east in a shroud of secrecy. Read what he might be up to, that wont be reported in the paroxism of fear reporting.
link
Redshift @ 35
All I am saying is that since the time of the Romans and probably earlier, where there is military procurement (or any large government spending which has to be done quickly in semi-emergency situations) there is going to be corruption. It is good to find it, but it is not of the same order of threat of as the enemy .
I see kkkarl has dispatched one of his lackeys to lie and disrupt FDL this morning.
Of course when you feed the trolls it tends to make them stick around and it attracts more of them.
I’ve learned to say, “I don’t believe a word of it” when we’re getting news-smacked about aborted terrorist attacks.
Do find it amusing that the photo op for these announcements, and others, always include an array of men as back-up for the main man speaking. Why are they there?
LL
I would point out that Dear Leader wants a dictatorship not democracy. He has stated so more than once.
By the way, are you having a good time here? What exactly is your point? Do you think that any type of conversion to your way of thinking will be achieved by your comments?
Take a breath. It’ll all be over January 20, 2009. Until then, spew away if it makes ya feel better. The countdown has begun.
Ref LibertyLee. It is this administration that is “killing as many troops as possible” It is this administration that is a danger to our “western democracy. It is this administration that is making us unsafe both here and overseas and it is this administration that is peopled with those that DID NOT fight in Vietnam or any other conflict. For those of us that are veterans of the Vietnam debacle it is those like LibertyLee that are the danger in their ideology
Good morning from L.A. Stayed in Burbank overnight & boy, does it smell like smoke outside this a.m. from the Griffith Park fire over the hill from us.
Juan Cole @ Informed Comment has several observations re: the Dix Six & a link to John Tirman’s take on them:
The Fort Dix Conspiracy- What It Tells Us
To the tune of “Don’t Pet the Dog….he mistakes it for love”, instead “Don’t feed the trolls….they mistake it for (fill in the blank)” be developed as a greeting for the “guests”? All the best……
Scarecrow…. this latests bust has the markings of the British water bottle bust. The one that so far has been ALL PR and no substance AND almost a year from that August 1 date…. Americans are still restricted from carrying ANY liquid greater than 3oz through security.
Why do I remember it….. I was on a business trip when it occurred.
The Republic mantra to stay in power. “There is no cowardice in recognizing we face a determined enemy who is trying to destroy Western Civilization as we know it. Franklin said that “vigilance is the eternal price of liberty….”
And FDR said, “We have nothing to fear but fear itself.”
klyde @ 38
Yeah, my mistake. I thought I saw a bit of a real argument there, and I got a rolled-up newspaper the last time I dubbed someone a troll, so I thought it was worth an effort. The further replies have clearly proven that wrong.
Libertylee-
I love how the Democrats and Liberals ruined everything even though the Republicans were in power. It was Bush and the Republicans who created the biggest Government in American history after pledging to make it smaller. You make no sense.
kdh22 @ 42
I am here because I am sort of tired of hating you guys and wanted to have a conversation. I wish I did have Karl Rove’s phone number….I think it would be an interesting conversation.
Some of you are interesting when you are not throwing epithets.
If you just like to talk to folks who agree with you isn’t that a bit boring?
katymine @ 45
I’m still trying to figure out what size my ziplock bag is supposed to be. thanks for reminding me to check, cause I have a business trip coming up soon.
Oh wow — would you look at that. Police work does a great job when they have the resources and the manpower to do the undercover work. Of course, in my community, a lot of our local police force is serving rotating tours in Iraq because they are in the reserves to cover the family budget — police officers get shit pay for the risks they take in keeping communities safe — so a lot of the undercover work has suffered since they’ve had to move those guys to regular cop beats to cover shifts. (Not exactly easy to be an undercover guy when folks see you driving around town in a patrol car.)
Who could possibly have forseen that piss poor war planning could have an impact like this back here at home? Ahem.
Meanwhile, back in Iraq we have lost 30 soldiers in the first 7 days of May!
http://icasualties.org/oif/
Good Morning Scarecrow and Firedogs,
actually seeing very little news about Fort Dix on the teevee – looks like Mr. Carney’s seed will find no media purchase
meanwhile – there is a seated Padilla jury (as some Firedog pointed out yesterday) Opening Statements on Monday
and I can’t find any dispo for the Miami 7 beyond their indictments – anyone ?
Let us not forget that it was a bush appointed USA that that is touting the capture of the bloody stupid idiots in Jersey. Come to think of it I did my basic training in Dix and I have a few choice words for that place myself!
OT. It is a bush appointed judge that dismissed charges against Posada who blew up the Cuban aircraft while working for the CIA while Poppy was head of CIA.
Boy, LibertyLee got my juices flowing.
OfT just a bit;
Pete Williams of NBC says that the guys looking to shoot up Fort Dix went for target practice, made a video of themselves, and decided to copy it in onto a DVD in January of 2006, and the FBI “found it disturbing”, and that that is what “began” this case…
Once agin, I wonder how many of these “terrist success stories” the Bushies have stored up to selectively combat bad news cycles.
Scarecrow — it has to be a quart size or smaller — although I’d suggest smaller if possible, given the jumble that is airport security and the crush of crabby people in line behind you. (Yes, I did just fly last week. Why do you ask? *g*) The TSA folks are most grateful if you have everything already in your bag and ready to be plopped in a security tray, nice and neat — frankly, I do not know how they deal with some of the crabby-assed people who didn’t want to follow the rules. It was all I could do not to yell at one couple “read the sign right in front of your face.” SIGH
“dangerously delusional”
Yes. And thank you!
Marie Roget @ 43
Thanks for the link and Juan Cole reminder.
TSA requirements for Liquids:
1 quart zip lock baggy
Every liquid container must fit into that ONE bag
3.5 oz is the largest size of each individual container …. NOT 4 – that will be taken away.
BTW…. if it is all plastic, the XRAY cannot see it. Only if they hand search the bag will it be found OR the size of your container displaces items …. looks like a void on the scanner. Those small bottles of hotel lotion that I stuffed into my computer bag and forgot about have gone through without detection.
katymine @ 44
One of the things I find significant about this incident is that authorities other than political appointees seem to be making quite an effort to downplay the seriousness of it. In some of the first reports I heard about it, they were quoted as saying the plot was nowhere near actually going forward, that it was “intentional, not operational”, and that the threat was maybe a 4 on a scale of 1 to 10.
Cable teevee was still going on about a “heavily armed attack” (from people who apparently didn’t have heavy arms or a way to get them) and “kill as many soldiers as possible,” of course. But the reports on “real news” included many facts that in past cases we wouldn’t have learned about until the “cried wolf” phase a week or more later, and that seems like a positive development.
nomolos @ 53
Is that the USA, perchance, that brought political charges just before an electiion in NJ to effect the outcome?
I think the Prez needs to surge troops to New Jersey to protect Ft. Dix. Probably all the troops in Iraq would be good then he doesn’t have to admit defeat.
Redshift @ 47
It’s a difficult question. I don’t set the rules, but I’ve never been comfortable with how easily people get labeled as “trolls.” As long as people don’t personally offend others with name calling, I’m open to very different views, including those I find dead wrong, recognizing that the same discussions must be occurring today in the US Congress. If things get out of hand, the moderators know their jobs, and they’re good at it.
IrishJim @ 26
Ding ding ding!
I’d be willing to bet that if these immigrants earned salaries above that of a 7-11 clerk, or a Phialdelphia cabbie, their “jihad” would not have happened. These are immigrants, legal or otherwise, who were scraping the bottom of the barrel economically and were motivated as much by frustration as anything else. Try liviong in this area of the country on $7.10 per hour.
A couple of years of that post high school would piss of the best of us.
Yes, they were on the attack, not a doubt about it. But an organized jihadi cell? Boots on the ground in the USA?
I don’t believe that for a second. Pay them $15 an hour and they would have had better options.
jayt at 53 — That’s actually a fairly good timeline for a police case where they would have had to likely do some surveillance and potentially infiltrate the group undercover. You don’t just get people yakking to some stranger about some violent plot they may be hatching in an hour or two over a beer. (Well, if you do, you are dealing with morons. But that’s another story…) They will have had the tape given to them by an informant, and then had to set up surveillance measures to track them and see if it was, indeed, a legit case or some paintball morons who had watched one too many episodes of “24.” You don’t want to just haul someone’s ass in and waste court resources — and you don’t want to haul them in if you think their activity may be part of a wider-ranging conspiracy, unless and until you identify as many members of that conspiracy as you can pull into the surveillance net.
Truly, this stuff needs to be taken seriously. A real threat — with the bio and chemical agents available in this day and age — require that you take every possible precaution and investigate every single angle. If you don’t, the cost could be substantial casualties and the last thing you want on your conscience is that you were too lazy to take your job seriously.
nomolos — I too was at Ft. Dix for a couple of months, back in 1969. After basic.
Scarecrow at 64 — Exactly so. Debate is good. Different ideas are welcome. Being an ass to deliberately disrupt the conversation? That’s a whole other thing, but we rarely get that sort of behavior here.
Christopher Christie’s self-righteous, patronizing, fear-mongering presentation on PBS proves that Bush has succeeded in converting the DOJ into his political tool.
And speaking of Kansas, did you see Gov. Sebelius, interviewed on same Lehrer show, start to get cranked up under questioning about the slow response of the National Guard to assist in Kansas. Just as she got going and was giving us just the facts, she was cut off–”out of time.”
IrishJim @ 26
They haven’t tortured them yet, as far as we know. Or taken them to Lybia, yet. Better get on that warrantless wiretapping soon or everyone might know about this.
Christy…. I truly understand your peeve about the occasional traveler vs frequent flyers. Last year I made Elite and my boyfriend Premier status which for me was more than 30 segments & he more than 100K miles.
Having idiots argue and sob about the fancy stuff they bought at the local spa and now are loosing because it is in a HUGE container. … insert eye roll here
The Water Plot was so bogus. There was only plans. Only a couple had passports, $1100 dollars between the 23, no chemicals and nothing else. It this current plot was filmed in 2006… it is the Tenet color coded planned TERROR alerts all over again.
I think the next spin you will be seeing from the Right Wing nuts is this:
“The Democratic investigaions into the USA hirings will start to hamper terrorist investigations, like the one foiled on Ft. Dix. The Democrats are hampering our ability to fight the War on Terror because they are causing disruptions at the Department of Justice.”
Coming soon to a Right Wing Nut store near you.
This administration is desperate to stop any further investigations into the DOJ.
katymine at 69 — I just don’t understand why they don’t pack that sort of stuff in their regular baggage. That would take care of the whole problem for them. But…nooooooo.
I swear, that whole “the rules apply to other people” mentality is spreading everywhere.
Scarecrow @ 57
I must be groggy from flying in late last night- meant to also say your post was excellent, Scarecrow.
Agree w/you about “troll” labeling. I’m willing to have a discussion w/just about anyone on any blog I visit so long as they’re not trying to suck all the air out of the room, so to speak…
IrishJim @73
Add “It’s Clinton’s fault” to the spin, since they are his refugees. (Of course they were likely greatful to America until Bush radicalized them)
From the Oversight Committee website
Live Webcast of the Hearing Begins at 10:00 a.m.
Chairman John F. Tierney (D-MA), who recently returned from Pakistan, is holding the hearing entitled “Extremist Madrassas, Ghost Schools, and U.S. Aid to Pakistan: Are We Making the Grade on the 9/11 Commission Report Card?”, in part, because of the low marks given to the Administrations’ policies in preventing extremism in Pakistan on the 9/11 Commission Report Card and how that affects U.S. national security interests.
LibertyLee @ 50
I like debate and conversation. Even with those, like you, whom I vehemently disagree. But, it’s fairly obvious, from the first sentence in your initial comment, that you were not looking to debate or converse. Rather, you attacked, judged and denegrated those with whom you sought to debate/converse. That’s not a particularly convincing way to begin a relationship…just sayin’.
Traveling…. I do not know which is worse… the “I am exempt from the rules and clog up the lines” or “I don’t know the rules and wander around lost and clueless and clog up the lines”
IrishJim @73 – I think you nailed it right.
With the Repug congress it was follow the money and with BushCo it is WHAT are they hiding.
It’s interesting that we face an “existential threat” from six nut cases who want to attack an army base, but we don’t face the same threat from a heavily armed right-wing militia with plans to attack an Alabama town and kill all the brown people.
Both threats were dealt with through the use of good police work, not militarily. Maybe we could learn a lesson here? The right wing is fighting the last war – a war against a powerful military enemy with nuclear weapons. The tactics that worked against the Soviet Union will not work against international terrorist organizations. What will work is international cooperation and good police work.
I thought KO hit the nail on the head when he summed up that, “the government arrested six morons.”
Yet another frustrating display by the Administration That Cried Wolf.
I figure if the first sentence of a post is a rethug talking point that smears Democrats and progressives and ends with this You do what you have to survive. And the American People under President Bush, Vice President Cheney and either Rudy or Newt or Fred Thompson or even McCain will protect us and survive and thrive. it’s a troll.
Of course reasonable people can disagree I just saw nothing reasonable in that post.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 56
All due respect, Christy, but as a frequent business traveler (40,000 miles flown so far this year) I see it somewhat differently. Yes, there is a fair quantity of frustratingly moronic behavior in any security line. Believe me when I say that I see a fair cross section of it at my home airport, John Wayne, which serves as the gateway to Disneyland and therefore is infested with a disproportionate number of non-frequent travelers and a disproportionate number of families with small kids.
But the real problem is TSA. The procedures differ, arbitrarily and capriciously, from airport to airport and even from terminal to terminal within the same airport. The average TSA employee is underpaid and undertrained (some of them appear to be rejects from Del Taco), hates his or her job, and takes it out on the people they are supposed to be helping. There is a real element of class warfare at the security checkpoints; the worst harassment is reserved for those who make the mistake of showing up professionally dressed.
And the most galling aspect, to me, of airport security is that it is a half-assed, unserious, Potemkin village. Think I’m engaging in hyperbole? Then ask yourself the following question: in all the times you have driven into an airport parking lot or parking structure since 9/11, how many times has a cop or security person looked under your car?
And don’t even think about getting me started on the subject of U.S. Customs.
Sorry to have gone on a bit, but this is a major hot-button issue for me.
George Tenet would have you believe there are plenty of very real, terrifying plots that have been foiled – yet all we get are Chimpy talking about a L.A. plot the mayor wasn’t aware of, the Miami 7, and now yet another more ‘aspirational than operational plot’ by some guys dumb enough to send the tape to Walgreens
that guy Tenet might be a liar
Christy – my antennae are raised b/c they had weapons, but I will be quite interested in knowing more about the informant in this case – will that be disclosed in filings ?
Simple qustion for our simple “President”: Are we safer here with our National Guard and equipment over there along with most of our military might? I always thought the best defense is a good Defense.
well, you know what I always say. . .
I still feel skeptical that this arrest doesn’t bear some resemblance to an Elizabethean coney-catch (i.e. Catholic-baiting) or something J Edgar Hooveresque. I can’t help it given the corrupt state of the DoJ, and the dubious arrest of Padilla and others. Until these folks are brought before a judge with all the governments evidence or so-called evidence, the verdict is still out for me, not just on the alleged terrorists, but on the DoJ and more specifically on the FBI.
Lee at 50 — I think you’d be surprised about how much common ground folks on both sides of the aisle have — the disagreement is generally in the details on how to push things forward or how to best accomplish particular goals. The fact that everyone has backed into their own little corners and refuse to budge out of them is a source of great irritation to me on a constant basis — but I catch myself in that bunker mentality in terms of my political views versus looking at the other side of things, too. But having more people involved in political discussion and providing some measure of accountability for folks in office on both sides of the aisle? That is really worthwhile on so many levels.
what happened to the Miami group of “terrorists”?
Ya know what folks– there is a familiar stench wafting from the mouth of the USA in NJ.
kdh22 @ 78
I’m sorry if you thought I was attempting to denigrate. I was referencing the concept of “danger from the political Left” because I do see danger from denigrating each and every threat from Islamic radicalism. That’s dangerous. And it usually comes from the Left.
My concern is that some here lump the Timothy McVeigh’s and the abortion arsonists (who most people in this Administration and any other Administration abhor and condemn) with an International Terror ideology that has as its goal the desire to bring a theocratic government that would treat women in ways that you accuse the Right of doing.
It manifests itself in labels like Bush is a devil and can do nothing right. I don’t think that’s fair. If he had really wanted to act lawlessly I think most folks here who have served in the military know there are ways those things could have been covered up a lot better than they were. As for the USA firings, my opinion is that that the Administration wanted their political appointees to reflect their views. If they didn’t measure up, they were fired. If there was intent to cover up real legitimate corruption investigations (e.g. Abramoff), OK, find it and prove it. If not, I think a Gore or Edwards Administration would probably do the same thing. So to spend the time and effort on investigating it does seem to reduce the manpower and investigative resources to investigate say, the degree of Islamic penetration into the translation ranks of the State Department. So yeah, if that that puts me in your pantheon of “wingnutery” OK, but that seems to be a lousy way to express disagreement.
burnspbesq @ 80… boy have I lived that one…
Newark did NOT require you to take your shoes off BUT Phoenix does.
Sacramento searches you within an inch of your life including body cavities.
Green Bay does not have scanners so your bags are hand searched and undies are held up for ALL to see.
The best of all was Cordova AK where the ticket clerk (woman) donned the orange vest to waive in the plane while yelling at Earl the baggage guy to make sure the bear was off the tarmac.
Then there are the SCREAMERS…. those shrill TSA (usually women) who are yelling at the top of their lungs instructions. Ontario CA is a real big screaming place.
cbl @ 84
BTW. Anyone look into the Tenet book, just out of curiosity? It’d be interesting to compare the book, writing style included with say Richard Clarke’s account.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 87
I agree with trying to work together. I work in a medium-large corporation, though…and often “accountability” sounds a whole lot like point fingers and assign blame rather than “fix the darn problem”. I work in the IT industry and that just seems to be a total waste of time.
Bush and Cheney are “wishin’ and hopin’” that a real Al Qaeda operation happens here. This is not it. It’s a stretch to make this into anything other that a Bush fear monger “I told you so”. Bin Laden can stay hidden in Pakistan because Bush Co is doing his work for him. How much weaker can we get? Bush will count the ways.
mui at 90 — I picked it up and flipped through a little in the airport last week, but didn’t buy it. The writing style was a little…um…dry in the part that I happened to read, but I can’t say how the book is as a whole. I just haven’t spent the money on it yet, and I don’t know that I will. I need some time to sit down and flip through it a little more, I think, before I figure out whether it has any value for me as a read, one way or the other.
Airport security — talk about a bright shiny object. I travel quite a bit to Europe–where they have been dealing with the threat of air terrorism for over 30 years now, and I have never experienced what I experience here. In Switzerland they actually have an actual intelligent person interview you while you wait in line to get your boarding pass. You never have to take off your shoes. You never have to throw out all your liquids, unless you are flying on an American airline. The main difference I see is the “quality” of the people who are working security in European airports. They are literate, and obviously well trained. And I bet they get paid a whole lot more–more on the par of a police officer, which is what they really should be if people were *really* serious about preventing terrorism.
My personal tin-foil theory is that the Dept of Homeland Security makes sure that going through airport security is as obnoxious as possible so that people think they are being protected.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 87
The problem is that we are accustomed to all the familiar attack language from the other side of the aisle and bristle. It’s really hard to break through the language and “logic” to have a discussion. Not to mention, “conservatives” all to often argue with this premise of superiority.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 87
Which is why I come to FDL to read. Rhetoric gets old extremely fast and FDL, with it’s share of rhetoric , has substance and links to sources providing even more background on particular topics.
tw3k at 95 — Thanks, we sure try to do that, anyway. Nice to know we are hitting the mark at least some of the time. *g*
Excuse me if this has been posted, but I though it interesting at least:
from usdoj.gov:
From the Nation:
The last time I flew, the security person said the rule was a 1 gallon bag; she made me throw away everything in smaller bags; the time before, the smaller bags were okay; the time before, it had to be one bag, not one in each carry on item; the time before that . . . I’ll follow the rules,even silly ones; I just want them to be the same each time and at every airport, and they haven’t been.
Fresh thread, gang. I need your help today…
Christy Hardin Smith @ 74
But it’s not just the travelers – - it’s TSA. The inconsistent application of their very own rules is what burns me most. I see this every time I travel; some folks get to carry stuff onto planes that ends up in the bucket for others. No rhyme no reason.
o/t
Guantanamo base to be US immigration welcome center
via raw story
Welcome Center ? really Loretta ?? I’m still waiting on my Iraq Outward Bound packet
Woodhall Hollow @ 93
I think the Japanese are very good as well. They are polite and they fold your close back neater than I ever would. I feel particularly perturbed when some guy goes through my undies, but if it’s respectful, than I am o.k. with it.
ww — thanks for the links; if you check out the link on Christie’s name in the main post, it goes to an article in which he was named Lawyer of the Year; and it has other information on criticism.
Christy has a new thread.
One of the reasons I spend more time lurking here than on HuffPo these days is the inevitable spate of trolls over there. It usually takes only a page or two of comments and they’re OT for the duration. Please don’t allow a “troll-friendly” attitude to take hold. Suggestion for the Mods: differences of opinion? Yes. Devil’s Advocacy? Yes. Trolling? NO!!
Quintus @ 81
I thought it was spot on too, but Keith also said this whole arrest just didn’t sound exactly right. The idea that these men would take their video to a photomart to make DVD copies. Does that sound like a strategy for success? The timing of this and the fact that one of the Bushie Attorney Generals was blabbing all over the Teevee just didn’t square with me. In fact, I feel that everything on the news is a concoction of the perverted media and the perverted administration working in tandem. How many times have we seen them trot out a “capture” or “killing” that is just way too convenient as a distraction?
I don’t believe much of the story that came out yesterday. Frankly, I don’t believe anything the executive branch says. The only thing they are capable of doing is to lie, and they’re not even good at that.
I havent read all the comments so possibly already noted but isnt it also possible this small group of muslims were not inspired by Osama bin Laden but rather energized by our Government’s round up right after 9/11 of anyone with a muslim name and a beard?
It’s also interesting that they targetted soldiers, those who volunteered to fight in Iraq, rather than an indiscriminant attack on civilians. No intent to give these guys a rationization but certainly the story is more complex than what our media just pushes out there from a Government announcement. Hopefully over a few days, these issues will be explored.
Scarecrow @ 0
Bingo! There’s no need to find a one-to-one correlation between the dog and the wag. A better approach to predicting a diversion is to measure the aggregate heat (or pressure) on the WH. It’s been working for me pretty reliably for 3 or 4 years now.
This LibertyLee can’t be real. He is either 15 years old, or less, or Karl Rove.
Completely uninformed. W.O.T.
Are these the same guys Tony Soprano gave up to the FBI/DHS in the last episode?
I think the DOJ had negotiated a deal with HBO not to reveal the plot until this last weekend’s episode.
BTW, does anyone know if this USAtty is a loyal Bushie? I would hate to think that the credibility of these arrests have been tainted.
Remember the Florida jihadists a few months ago? Our nation barely escaped the embarrassment of a bad jihad. Had they attacked us with their Kung Fu night sticks, I think the rest of the world would have chuckled. Now we learn that our military has been targeted by the New Jersey Pizza Death Squad. But apparently only six of the ten were actually trained in the jihadist art of pizza delivery. The other four went free — because they were innocent jihadists, unaware of what they were doing. This must be proof that the GITMO detainees are really dangerous, because we now have evidence that America is only willing to incarcerate the most dangerous suspects. Those four must be humiliated to be labeled as cub scouts by the government and country they despise.
I predict this story will fall into the cracks…just like Padilla and the Flordia jihadists and thwarted attack on the Los Angeles skyscraper.
Can anyone say “Wolf”?
liberty lee exposed the troll in itself @ 89 when the US Attorney scandal was touched. that was just pitiful.
dead last @ 112
BLITZER!
dead last @ 113
Bio weapon attack with tainted sausage & pepperoni, or poisonous mushrooms? :P
LibertyLee @ 22
I recall that the NRA leadership has periodically referred to those that tried to take away the automatic weapons at WACO, Ruby Ridge and other militias as “jackbooted thugs” that wanted to deprive patriots from the power to combat the military by means equal to what the government is armed with.
These are the same folks that have advocated that kids should be allowed to carry weapons into classrooms, and that kids should vociferously challenge teachers who teach materials like evolution, or “unpatriotic” versions of American or World history that are unpalatable to their own beliefs. Armed kids intimidating teachers!
And having protests asking that gay kids be banned from classrooms.
One could argue, by the NRA’s logic that these folks did absolutely nothing illegal. They were not armed with illegal weapons, there is nothing illegal about shooting weapons at a firing range (weapons obtained FROM the shooting range), or saying “God is Great”. Or other statements of “free speech”. According to that great arbiter of the 2nd Amendment the NRA…groups can form militias that even train to fight the “jackbooted thugs”.
But maybe that’s only in the Clinton era?
Gunga Djinn @ 116
No taint. Just an unseemly choice of toppings.
It’ll be interesting to see exactly how much the planted informants involved “led” these guys.
It’s clear that they didn’t have any semi-automatic weapons UNTIL after the “moles” infiltrated them and offered them weaponry. I wonder how many of the ideas themselves were inserted by the informants…
encoraging these guys… perhaps with exhortations and speeches about jihadism and Al Qaeda themselves.
Apparently there were 10 in the group and only 6 were arrested…meaning almost half the members were actually informants!
LibertyLee @ 89
Ah, but appointees to the Justice Department are supposed to have no political bias in executing their duties. Most of those USAs who were fired were pursuing cases where Republicans were going to be charged.
When removing a political appointee from office, especially in DoJ, the least appearance of political motive has to be avoided. This is where the current Mal-Administration tripped up.
BTW, I ask you to find one post on this blog where Bush has been called “a devil.” My favorite title for the man is “The Idiot-in-Chief” and believe me, he’s earned it.
cinnamonape @ 119
Sure. Entrapment, confidence tricks, cons and dupes. It’s the oldest game in the world. I wouldn’t be surprised if the FBI knew how to play this game well. It’s hard for persons to understand how easy it is to be conned, unless they’ve been conned themselves.
Cheney’s Leer & the Glint on the Cross
Among all of Dick Cheney’s distasteful contorted facial expressions the one that was most chilling and evil, which I wish that I had not seen, was the leer he transmitted to a GOP faithful audience when he disclosed that AQ in Iraq now numbers fifteen thousand.
His leer fully transmitted that he used the propaganda lies, that AQ was connected to Iraq, to get our guns and oil companies into Iraq. It also transmitted the, to him, deliciously evil twist that the lie has now morphed into the truth.
That AQ is now several thousand strong in Iraq is a grotesque result of the pathetically naive Neocon misadventure. It’s also a plank in their arguments that we need to stay.
“The dolts, (meaning the American public and the MSM), don’t have a clue as to what evil we will employ to accomplish our goals,” is what the leer beams to the mightiest of the Bush base.
…as the sunlight flickered on the cross in his lapel…
—cognitorex—
(photo source: The Future of Television)
Brisingamen @ 120
If the purpose of the civil rights division is to enforce the laws against discrimination, it should not be acceptable to appoint/promote attorneys to that division whose views are that the laws against discrimination are a bad idea, even if that is the “political view” of the current administration. What we’ve had in this Justice Department (and many agencies) are appointees and hires who not only didn’t agree with the laws they were asked to enforce, they felt it was okay to excerise their regulatory or prosecutorial discretion to undermine those laws. That’s not just “politics” — it undermines the integrity of government and the rule of law.
If you don’t agree with the law, change it lawfully in Congress, and face the voters, but we shouldn’t allow the Justice Department to do it illegally through politicized prosecutions and selective enforcement (or lack thereof).
Sounds like that pathetic Miami group all over again… anyone know what happened to them?
Or to put this another way, suppose we have a duly enacted federal statute that says states can’t outlaw the sale of automatic weapons. But a gun-control administration comes in and says, we will appoint attorneys who will decline to file lawsuits against states that try to enact these laws. And if any attorney does file such a lawsuit, we’ll fire them, claiming that USA serve at the pleasure of the President.
How would the right feel about that?
Either we have a rule of law and respect the legislative process, or we don’t. If the answer is, “it depends on which side is in the WH,” the system is inherently corrupt and lawless — and that’s what I think we have now — a lawless regime.
They parade one of these out every time Junior’s popularity slips (28%). As in Miami, and Ojai, one can suspect that the “informant”, may indeed be “The Leader of the Pack”
Way to go Scarecrow and FDL commenters, what an excellent post/thread. I actually took the time to read the whole thing through.
Having said that, maybe someone (LL?) could explain this: A real OKC-TimMcV-’lone nut’ head-scratcher.
As this case plays out, odds are that it will be increasingly difficult to tell what plans were initiated by the original members and what plans were initiated by the “FBI informant.” If past is prologue, it will turn out that six suggestible paint ball players were goaded on by a new comer curiously interested in high profile conspiracies.
The central question that is getting missed is this: After all of the money we have thrown at the Bushies and all of the strutting a chest pounding they have done since 9/11 about how they were going to protect our borders from scary Muslims, how could it be that *two* of the people picked up yesterday were in this country illegally? It’s like Muhammed Atta and Zacharias Moussaoui all over again. Did they learn nothing?
Well, here I am in NJ and I am not a quivering mass of jelly, terrified out of my wits about Muslims. All of the Muslims I know are decent people not interested in harming anyone. They’re just here to do their jobs. I can’t imagine who would be stupid enough to plot something like this, take videos of themselves and then have a third party transfer the videos to DVD. In fact, why was the third party viewing the tape in the first place? One would presume they are trying to catch child pornographers. But still, I smell a setup. I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that the FBI had gently encouraged them to do some of this stuff. “Here, let me give you the name of a guy who can transfer the video to DVD for you. We can get a bulk discount, Inshallah.”
All I could think was that the pizzaria belonged to his father. It was the family business. If you’ve never run one, never worked in one, you have no idea what that means. But I do. This fool has ruined his family. He has destroyed their livelihood. Thousands of hours of pride and hard work, gone. All gone. The selfishness is, as always with these obsessed twits, breathtaking.
He was little threat to Fort Dix. But he has witlessly destroyed his own. Their lives are forever changed.
Mui at 90
I am about two-thirds through Tenet’s book, and when I finish, I plan to post a review over at The Next Hurrah.
Pieces of the book are interesting, particularly if you have read other versions of the event or argument, and are prepared to do some contrast/comparison. But the book is also full of really stupid errors — no other way to describe them. For instance Tenet has the sequence of which WTC tower was hit first, ass backwards, and you sure don’t have to be in the CIA to get that right. When you find such junk writing in what supposedly is a book vetted by CIA, and filled with acknowledgements as to who helped by reading draft versions, it makes you really wonder if you can trust anything you can’t check.
Realizing that I still have about 150 pages to go — and I am reading with pen in hand, making underlines and marginal notes as I go — meaning it is slow, the two Tenet points I see of value include his casting the “why we invaded Iraq” question as deeply colored by too much dependence on a False Analogy. (he calls it looking through the wrong prisim — I prefer the term from formal logic.) Without really fully understanding 9/11, it was used as an analogue by top policy makers as they looked at Saddam’s regime. Prior to 9/11 the analogy mostly depended on a very superficial understanding of the 1938 Munich Agreement. So I appreciate Tenet making this point, though it really is buried in the text. Had I been his editor, I would have recommended making the Fallacy of the False Analogy a chapter heading, and then selected from his various spy stories, and how they were received by policy makers using the false analogy as a basis for thinking through policy, tactics and strategy. Ron Suskind does this in “The One Percent Solution” — to a much more comprehendable effect. But all taken together the false assumption was that Saddam would act to “surprise” the US and the West much the way bin Laden did. So many of the mistakes, horrors, stupid planning, et. al., flow from that false assumption. As Tenet describes scene by scene, meeting by meeting, this logical problem was common throughout Government, both parties, executive and congress.
Tenet contends, and I think he is correct here, that there never was a true policy debate over whether an invasion of Iraq was the wise course, given any measure of the Problem Saddam presented. He and his deputy sat in on many supposed policy meetings at the highest levels, and they were all hijacked by irrelevant detail. For instance, a supposed meeting about post invasion economic issues got taken over by a debate about how to issue a new currency as fast as possible, so as to get Saddam’s face off the money — whereas the real issue in need of discussion was how to create a central bank that could guide a developing new economy. There is a special kind of insight you get from descriptions of meetings at such a high level (Condi chairing) that devolved into such sillyness. I get more and more evidence for my own thesis about all this — and that is these guys never really studied how the first four years of the German Occupation went so as to comprehend the really big problems they might confront, and plan accordingly. And yes, reconstruction of Germany only began to take off with the founding of the Bundesbank, that would control currency, and match labor and material inputs with productive outputs — and keep the currency regulated as a reflection of this. Tenet supplies a vast number of examples like this, supporting a conclusion that these guys didn’t know what in the hell they were doing.
There is a lot more of course in 500 pages — some new insight into taking down the AQ Khan Nuclear Industry — interesting insight into some of the dealings with Pakistan — I wish there had been far more on Saudi Arabia, particularly more analysis. Tenet devotes considerable space to his efforts to negotiate security issues between Israel and Palestine, beginning with the Wye conference during the Clinton Administration. Much of the detail is new, I think, and it makes me even more pessimistic about that conflict. He comes down pretty hard on some of the administration connected factions that had special agendas — Feith, he really lays into Ledeen and the neo-Iran/Contra folk, and he has little good to say about Cheney’s circle — Scooter et. al.
Anyhow, if people have been reading some of this policy debate all along, I think reading Tenet will be useful, but it is not exactly a pleasant experience. If people haven’t been reading the books all along, it is a piss poor introduction. Thus far, I have found the commentary pretty stupid — I suspect most who are talking about the book haven’t read it yet, and all too many have just a pro or anti Tenet agenda, and are not serious about comprehending what he covers, and what he leaves on the table.
I’ll better develop these ideas when I post a review at Next Hurrah.
I’m really tired of all the undercover agents provocateurs pretending to be wanna-be jihadists on the internets. It almost makes me nostalgic for the recent past when all the undercover cops just spent their days pretending to be 13-year-old girls in chat rooms.
Sara — thanks for the preview. Interesting insight on the false analogy. I look forward to your post.
Any takers on how often Abu Gonzales will mention tomorrow the arrest of these guys in New Jersey?
And as a side bet, how often the Republicans on the committee will mention the arrest the other day as part of their “questioning” of Abu Gonzales over Hatch Act violations under him?
Gonzales – 15
Republicans on committee – 16
And, of course, it’s all just a coincidence that Gonzales’ Justice Department sat on these indictments and arrests for over a year. Not!!
Sara @ 131
Actually you just got me interested enough to want to read it. I’m glad you’re posting a review. I am not a Tenet fan, but I am terribly curious.
The humdinger for the Dix/NJ cell story was this:
“Conducted surveillance of the base while delivering pizzas” — HUH?
What are we doing letting pizza drivers roam a base???
Are they serious?????
Also, Scarecrow, nice post, w/one edit –
it’s Seung-Hui Cho. Gotta get names right, furrin or not.
LibertyLee @ 22
But but but, we DO recognize the danger the Bush family mafia poses.
TribeScribe @ 136
Thanks for the heads up on the name; I just copied it from some article.
Everyday brings another example of the utter and complete dishonesty and imbecility of the government, especially Bush and Cheney.