Digby has a great discussion of the tendency toward passionless, analytical Monday Morning Quarterbacking in the punditocracy and the self-styled pseudo-liberal literati set.
Humans need to feel part of something, that they have a stake in the outcome. Emotion is what moves people, whether it is demagoguery, fear, anger or inspiration (and there's often tension and similarity among those things.) To get people engaged you have to give them something to care about, to feel connected with, to want to devote some of their precious time and resources to something for which there is no direct compensation except a feeling of doing the right thing or righting a great wrong. Change requires energy and energy is one thing that sophisticated intellectual salons and learned political journals, however important they may be, simply do not provide.
Sadly, liberals are far more difficult to draw in to that for the reasons that Hazlitt cited nearly 170 years ago. It's a temperament thing. We are just more dispassionate as a rule than the rowdy right because they feel they are protecting their prerogatives — and they just get off on the fight. But from time to time liberals simply have to get religion or risk losing it all….
Chait grants that the netroots "instrumentalism" (our "practical interest") is perhaps necessary, but he frets that there is a danger that the movement will devolve into some sort of unthinking know-nothingness that rivals the right. I think that's highly unlikely. As much as we grubby netrooters have a different temperament than the more staid punditocrisy, we have much more in common with them than the other side — and will always be at a disadvantage because of it. We are not, as a rule, drawn in solely for the combat, where the action is the juice and dominance for the sake of dominance is our motive. Indeed, just like the sniffing pundits, we all tend to be vain in our highmindedness, it's only a difference of degree. It seems to be intrinsic to our nature.
So I think we liberals can afford to take at least a little of what Hazlitt wrote back in the day to heart without fearing that we will turn into mouthbreathing demagogues. If the last few years of modern conservative dominance have proved nothing else it proves that we "betray the cause by not defending it as it is attacked, tooth and nail, might and main, without exception and without remorse." The best case scenario is that you get left with the ruins of failed conservatism to clean up and straighten out over and over again. The worst case scenario is that someday they may just break the country for good.
All the high minded, defer the carpe diem, let's just play nice and wait and see just marks more time. Frankly, all that gets us is more of the same — and I'd like nothing more than something different than George Bush and pals. If we had sat back and been cheerily going along with the conventional wisdom in the 2006 election cycle, we'd still have a rubber stamp Republican parliament, no oversight, and a whole lot of nothing else. No thanks.
And as we are almost halfway through 2007 and headed into 2008, it isn't as though we can just sit back and navel gaze and expect everything to just turn out okay without actually DOING the work that needs to be done and getting up off our freaking butts — because this stuff doesn't just magically get done by citizenship fairies who clean up after all the nasty political messes. Nope, that job is ours — every single one of us — and it is well past time that the punditocracy realized that they, too, bear some responsibility for calling a lie a lie and a false premise false. Clearly, without hedging their bets, because facts are what they are and it is well past time that we all stopped pretending some false equivalence where none exists because we're afraid of damaging the President's self-esteem or denting his rose-colored scenarios.
It's my country, my constitution, and my duty as a citizen to stand up and fight for my rights as I see them. I am not going to allow Karl Rove to tell me what to say or think, and no bourgeouis, pseudo-intellectual, stand on the sidelines and no one ever has to worry about getting hurt wuss is going to tell me how I should think or act either. Stand up and have a spine or get the hell out of our way — because we are going to pull this country back to its roots and the rule of law, whether the "cosmopolitans and cocktail weenies" set like it or not. I'm with Digby on this one: I stand up for my values because it is the right thing to do — for my child and my community and my country. Standing dispassionately on the sidelines is just a self-justification for sitting it out. No thanks.
So you can help, or get the hell out of the way. Because we are fighting for the soul of our nation — with or without you.
(And yes, I know the video really has nothing to do with the post other than the title being a convenient line, but I was in the mood for some U2 this morning. So enjoy.)
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NOlolo *wink
Hi!
Morning, Christy.
AMEN Christy!
Christy!!
Lou!!
Raven!!!!!!
And I even went back and alerted the last thread first. Now to read this one.
I wonder if George was getting some monarching tips from Liz last night, you know, throwing people in dungeons and never giving them a trial. Ya, he has that part down pat doesn’t he.
there’s never a bad time for u2.
yes, this is the problem. you can see how rage gets stirred, to create the conditions for mobilization. this is what the republicans and their noise machine have been very effective at doing.
it’s tough combatting that, but i think it’s clear that you HAVE to.
This on William Hazlitt resonates even today:
I want my country AND my Constitution back. If that means I fight, so be it. I may have pacifistic tendencies but I also know how to use everyday household objects and weapons for my advantage. :})
good job Lou Costello!
was starting to get real impatient with folks forgetting their manners around here – was worried I was gonna have to be the Get Off My Lawn !!! gal of FDL ;)
MSM snark, just for fun:
(NYT linky)
Everybody is always telling us what to think and how to act. If you are not self-actualized, you are a sheep. If you delegate your responsibility as a citizen, then don’t bitch about the results; because you are responsible. Doing nothing has consequences, which the last 7 years have taught us. Who among us, including Republicans, wants more of the same? Even the “Commander Guy”’s rats are starting to feed on each other. Change is coming. Are you willing to let others define that change?
Good post. Thank you.
Oil, oil, oil
madness, madness, madness
An extract from the fine investigative reporter
(in the mold of Emptywheel) Greg Palast, from
Sun Magazine
Cooper: We saw unusually low oil prices leading up to the 2006 election. You’re suggested they were manipulated, but isn’t it normal for prices to come down in the fall?
Palast: Not that much. And supposedly there was no refined product last summer that’s why gas prices were so high.
So how come in the fall we had this massive inventory of refined products? Did we build some refineries I don’t know about? We also saw this in 2004, when the Saudis boosted production for a few weeks just before the
election, resulting in a drop in prices. In 2006 I asked one of the chief traders of one of the biggest oil-trading operations on the planet, one of the inside top executives, “Did you play with the oil prices to help out Bush? And he said “Absolutely”
But there was a second aspect. The Saudis dropped the price not just to help the Republicans, but also to punish Iran. The Saudis are Sunni Muslims; the Iranians are Shiite Muslims. The Sunnis and Shiites are battling for control of the oil fields. The Saudis thought that Iranian President Ahmadadinejad was getting too big for his britches, so they decided to take him down a few notches by reducing the price of oil by $15 bucks per barrel. Remember, the Iranians’
nukes won’t reach Los Angeles, but they sure as hell will reach the Saudi capital Riyadh.
Ah, remember the good old days when conservative Republicans were so upset about Bill Clinton because he turned America into a “laughingstock”?
My, how low have we gone when North Korean generals are repeating internet jokes about George W. Bush at the opening of meetings with South Korean generals?
Bush has America scraping the bottom of the barrel.(Link to Al Jazeera)
-GSD
When the wingnuts I know go off on their rants, I can only respond so much before I end up walking away because I don’t want to be sucked into their trip, and I don’t seem to have the skills to debate clearly with a raving lunatic.
You know the adage: Don’t wrestle with a pig — you both get dirty, and the pig likes it.
Any tips on how to debate the issues effectively without falling into their framing/terminology/vitriol?
Awhile back I was watching Hardball. It was at a time that everyone was afraid that we were about to bomb Iran. Pat Buchanon was screaming things like “Are they crazy?” and ‘They’re going to break our military”. By contrast Paul Begala was calmly pointing out why it would be wrong. We need to find our voice and exhibit some outrage.
Here is a little video I got in my email this morning. Statistics about technology, its growth and where we as Americans fit in. Kind of scary. It’s called Shift Happens. (Hope this works)
http://www.glumbert.com/media/shift
Great post, Christy. I think it also highlights the difference between the modern progressive movement and modern American liberalism (ca 1950-2000). Liberalism in this sense is actually a compromise position, which largely seeks to maintain the status quo while accomodating some of the demands of the more vocal and active components of the oppressed groups within society. It is the politics of the comfortable, albeit passively moral. The modern progressive movement is inherently more active and more reformist. In this regard, it more closely resembles early twentieth century progessive movements, which united elements of the classical liberal movement (pre-WWII) with the less extreme elements of the radical left (socialists). Both the earlier movement and the modern movement are activated by strong emotions and a profound desire for change, as well as a sense that the country is on the wrong track.
I am with that.*We* progressives are on the side of the enlightenment.
I agree liberals need to be proactive.
I do not agree that liberals are by nature less passionate or assertive than conservatives. To argue otherwise would seem to fly in the face of the last 550 years of western history. If you don’t believe me, ask the Queen before she heads home.
Eyes of the world at 16 — I find it particularly useful to do things like quoting William F. Buckley, Jr., or Ronald Reagan or Barry Goldwater at them. I have a few stock responses that I pull out — it’s amazing how when confronted by the voices of conservatism past that it just confounds their kool-aid brains. Just that little pause to stop and think, really think, can make all the difference. On both sides of the aisle, really.
And 18th c. politics was apparently very rowdy.
Any NJ readers hearing anything more substantive about this potential plot to attack Fort Dix? Sounds like the FBI had someone on the inside of the group doing recon — good for them, and good police work — but I’m wondering if any more fo the backstory has started leaking out?
Bay State – when I saw a headline this morning that said: Obama “the age of oil must end in our time”, oddly, the first thought that crossed my mind is that maybe it’s a good thing he’s got a secret service detail already in place.
Muzzy @ 24
Bloody oil…
Thanks Christy — good idea!
firedog appreciation day
One dog barks at nothing, ten thousand others pass it on. — Japanese proverb
Liberals haven’t been dispassionate; if anything, they have been liberal, allowing all others the freedom to have their say.
But as Moulitsas and Armstrong pointed out in Crashing the Gates, there’s a point at which expressing a passion on a single point comes at great cost to the overall detriment of the entirety of progressivism. We allowed certain voices so much freedom that they became the face of the entire movement, rather than a part or subset of a larger vision. Pro-Choice, as one example, became louder than the rest of the left; when their litmus test failed the entirety of the left, it ultimately failed them as well.
Perhaps it’s not that we are less passionate — f*ck that, scratch it, we are clearly PASSIONATE, PASSION-FILLED. Just spend some time with other liberals and progressives at a Meetup and you’ll know that we are far from tepid and disinterested. But what we have not been is driven to be a single, unified entity as the right has been. Seeing what that unified force has wrought as a result of achieving absolutely corrupting absolute power, becoming an ultimately unified force should not be a long-term goal.
But becoming a unified force for the purposes of undoing the damage of the past 6-12 years, under a Republican adminstration and a Republican Congressional majority is a worthy, world-saving cause.
So is seeking to dilute the power of both major parties and reengaging the disenfranchised once the bulk of damage has been undone; we should be encouraging the many voices of both the left and right to emerge and restore balance.
dakine01 @ 10
I like everyday household objects.
How about a pen, checkbook, and Blue America 08 list?
How about my phone, fax, and postcard supply?
How about strolling down to the local office of my rep and senator?
How about my absentee ballot?
To an entrenched member of the “cosmopolitans and cocktail weenies” set, the most dangerous thing to their world is an informed, active voter.
It doesn’t matter whether they are members of the legislative branch, congressional staffers, campaign consultants, lobbyists, media insiders, BushCo minions in the executive branch, Barney the White House dog, or Karl Rove himself. Informed, active voters scare the pants off lots of these folks. “Why, if everyone paid attention to politics, what happens to us?”
*crickets*
I’ve got everyday household objects, and I’m not afraid to use them. Put down the cocktail weenies, and nobody gets hurt.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 21
one thing that I find puzzling is how much the wingnuts just cut&paste in their arguments … we just went thru a discussion w/ an acquaintance who clearly was referring the discussion to his rightwing sources and then just copying their replies. very strange … I always want to credit my sources. Esp’ly cause it might get people thinking if they come to places like this and start reading.
it’s like some kind of stepford wives thing.
alas, humans need to find out who they are alone before they become a part of a group by choice. Having the syntax reversed leads to personal servitude, religion, and other forms of extremism that the infirm blame on society. sadly, society welcomes conformity. it is taxable.
some people learn first, then try to explain. some people accept the explanation and never learn.
Jacques Derrida borrowed and theorized a term from Plato: pharmakon. Pharmakon can be poison or cure, depending on the dosage. It’s also a form of immunization, where a small dosage of the virus immunizes against the virus. Fighting contemporary rightists with old-school conservatives: It’s like Nixon going to China in 1972.
Kool aid drinking right will always be more moved with flag waving, Angry White Guy posturing. They are easier to keep in line.
Per John Dean’s “Conservatives Without Conscience,” 24% of the population is inclined towards authoritarianism by nature.
That means we need to win 2/3 of what’s left
Solai @ 17
Don’t you know what happens when Democrats scream? Repugs call them angry and out of control.
Biodun at 33 – I love that. Ad I’m going ot use that analogy at some point. Thanks!
eyes of the world @ 16
I’m sharing a house with some nutter/ditto-heads as well as having one for a brother. Patronizing condescension seems to work some what. Also refusing to be baited when they’re spouting LimpBalls, Insanity, or Orally’s latest BS. Just tell them that these guys are known as idiots and they how wouldn’t know the truth if it smacked them in the mouth. Then bring up LimpBalls going to DR to play with little boys and his v**gra and having an anal cyst to get out of the army. Kinda like to top it off with a mention of how cowardly Ted Nugent was to get out of ‘Nam. Doesn’t always work but the insults alone usually get them off Rust’s and the Redubyacans talking points.
cbl @ 11
cbl…I’ve been half way around the world and manners got me there and back. A kind ‘Please’ and ‘Thank You’ opens many doors.
Lou Costello @ 6
After reading this post, I have to say this is a perfect example of what’s going on in the world…
True libs work in ‘the service of others’ (Ex: fairness and compassion)
Rethugs work in ‘the service of self’ (Ex: greed and corruption)
Christy:
You’re quite welcome!
Peterr @ 30: LOL!
The only reason liberals are less able to be aroused is that they see the nuances and subtleties of questions. Right wingers are so narrow minded, that they can easily be switched “on” with a mere phrase or a flag waving symbol and their propensity to believe BS. Liberals, on the other hand, question and question. It takes the blind trigger response away from liberals. But once aroused, passion is our middle name. And we can bite ones head off with a well placed phrase as well as whatever else is needed. I am so outraged that it is all I can do to stay sane.
oldtree @ 32
or like fox news says, we decide, then report.
and they have their market.
That was one of the three points I took away from the Leslie Stahl interview with Lou Dobbs. She was appalled that Lou actually cares about the issues he covers since it might interfere with her precious journalistic balance. That is the problem with beltway journalists, beyond mere chumminess with and concern for maintaining access to Administration folks: politics is all a big game to them, which they view with a clinical detachment. They just don’t care that decisions made in Washington result in the death of thousands, nor that our country is going to hell in a handbasket. If politics is just theatre, then the MSM just can’t grasp the idea that there can be true villains; the most they can admit is there are those who play the part of the villain. Leslie Stahl’s reaction to Dobbs was perhaps the starkest revelation of the MSM’s mindset. Unfortunately, this credo of journalistic balance is far deeper than the allure of cocktail weenies.
Agree or disagree with Lou Dobbs (and frankly I’m more in the Emma Lazarus camp on immigration, though Lou is spot-on on outsourcing), his challenge to journalistic balance merits further discussion.
Alice B @ 41
Liberals have plenty of outrage. The reason Republicans shout so loud and get so outraged is because they’re either wrong or they’re lying. If they say it in that patronizing tone that my wife uses when I say something she doesn’t agree with, I know they’re lying.
Eyes of the World, go to Thesmokingun.com Print up the Bill O’Reilly/Makris lawsuit files. Give the printo-out to your winger friends.
Tell them you don’t take the advice of perverts who pretend to be moralists who are “looking out for you”.
Ask your Republican friends why they have nothing but disgust for government but can do nothing but support George W. Bush, a man who has been a Washington insider for 7 years going now.
-GSD
Biodun @ 33
Nixon going to China in ‘72 DID get us some McGovern votes. I was a campaigning at a precinct on election day and a fellow McGovern campaigner said that she and her family (parents) were voting for George because Nixon had turned commie by going to China. For once I just smiled and kept my big mouth shut.
“It’s my country, my constitution, and my duty as a citizen to stand up and fight for my rights as I see them,” sez Christy Hardin Smith.
…remember that…
[sound of manhole cover being pushed up and slid open]
Well?
Well what?
Well, where are we?
Oh, oh yeah…let me see…hmmmmm…okay, we’re early in Christy’s thread on the danger of complacency in the press…and it looks like they’ve got some kind of anti-zed countermeasures going…
Early you say? Pull the cover back over and let’s hang back. The Mods will be looking for us…
scrape, scrape…*clang*
CHS@22
Scripture thumpin yahoos seem to gravitate toward me. I don’t get many Limbaugh fans.
Q. Have you accepted Jesus as your personal savior?
A. Actually, we’re just friends.
Q. Have you read the Bible?
A. Yep. I even saw the movie.
Q. Where do you go when you die?
A. Well I try to get in a little vacation, but generally I go where ever I’m needed.
Q. Are you a Christian?
A. Yeah, but I believe in Reincarnation. So I’m Born Again and Again…
It would be nice if the dead end republic party would just get the hell out of the way. Unfortunately they are intellectually challenged in such a way that once the steam roller hits them they’ll lay there wondering what just happened.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 24
When I read this “story”, I was reminded of how little coverage there was of the “White-wing” plot to kill Mexicans in Georgia. Unlike the “potential” plot in NJ, the guys in Georgia had Class III weapons and were going to use them.
Glenn Greenwald today in Salon talks about another form of personal immunization practiced by neocons:
OT — petition being routed to save the wolves. Public commentary being accepted through Wednesday 09-MAY on potential stripping of Endangered Species Act protections from wolves.
Roughly 10,000 more signatures are requested.
I think we are way off the mark when we put the left/right continuum on the same axis as good/evil.
Frankly this alleged plot at Fort Dix is not believable.
I mean how can terrorists possibly be coming over here while we still have US troops over there?
-GSD
For every rat that leaves the ship, there is an opportunity to open a new debate or frame an existing one.
For every new technology there is an opportunity to use it for the well-being of the society.
Items for debate:
Universal health care
Universal pension
Progressive tax system
Co-op energy producers: non-profit
Universal education from preschool to grad school
The possibilities are endless.
dakine01 @ 36
I appreciate the idea, but I have to say that this is one of the things I personally try to avoid doing. It’s a tactic I don’t like being used against me; it always feels like they can’t actually argue on facts so they resort to taunts and insults instead. If I don’t like it when they do it, I figure I shouldn’t do it myself.
Great post, Christy. I feel the same way. It’s time to stand up for what we believe in, because if we don’t, we will lose it. Sometimes it’s hard to get motivated because people don’t think that their actions will have an effect on the outcome. I felt that way for a long time.
Then, I realized that it doesn’t matter. We need to do what’s right because it’s what’s right, not because we are guaranteed a certain result. We may not get what we want, but that is no excuse for inaction. If we don’t achieve our objective, I couldn’t look at myself in the mirror if I had not done whatever was in my power to change things. To me it would be the same thing as pulling the lever for BushCo.
To paraphrase Jesus, anyone can do right to someone who’s nice to them – even the Pharisees do that. What’s difficult is to do right in the face of opposition.
This is a shame……but why now…why at all??
The Resurrection of Jim Crow
http://scoop.epluribusmedia.or…..0657/55601
“Jim Crow, like the Dark Lord in the popular Harry Potter children’s books, never completely died. And the resurrection, assisted by the seeding of political appointees and agreeable new hires within the very government institutions designed to protect the civil rights of Americans, is now dangerously close at hand.”
OT:
Republican quotes KKK founder on House Floor.
http://www.thecarpetbaggerrepo…..10731.html
GSD@55:
Yeah, I thought the oceans were supposed to protect us.
yeah, chait’s piece struck a nerve with me too. i work in a department in a big progressive liberal organization and our primary product is research. translation: i’m surrounded by PhDs who genuinely believe that mixing it the fuck up is beneath them. how many meetings have i sat through where, after much serious mindnumbing consternation about how do we get joe (and josephine!) truck driver to care about what we care about, the ANSWER has always been, well we educate them up to our level over time and hope for the best. makes me cringe. makes me also wonder: who’s the fool?
Meanwhile, the boomers are racing the clock to implement things that will provide a better world for the coming generations.
Baby Boomer Death Clock
Whenever you hear George Tenet say “I really tried to stop the run up to war…”, think of this: George Tenet cashes in on Iraq
Jonah’s latest piece of somehting-or-other:
Jonah Goldberg: Netroots on shaky ground
An online liberal movement that seeks to imitate GOP tactics places too much emphasis on style over substance.
IT’S IRONIC. At precisely the moment so many people think that the Republican Party and the conservative movement went off the rails, the people who hate the right the most want to copy it.
That’s the upshot of an alternately brilliant and tendentious cover story in the latest New Republic, in which Jonathan Chait argues that the so-called netroots “are the most significant mass movement in U.S. politics since the rise of the Christian right.” Chait persuasively argues that the netroots — Democratic activist blogs and other online communities — are transforming the Democratic Party by championing a new emphasis on partisan fervor and political unity.
Going on to assume that what Chait says (about Kos and others) must be correct, because Chait is an expert on blogs.
I’ll let others shoot him down. The four-days-of-Santa-Anas sinus headache would go off-scale if I try dealing with that stuff too.
Some local stories for the NJ Terroist plot
From wnbc 4 NYC
http://www.wnbc.com/news/13274…..=mainclick
From the Couier Post (based in Cherry Hill, NJ)
http://www.courierpostonline.c…..1/70508004
From Philly.com
http://www.philly.com/philly/h…..ttack.html
Alicia, 58: Never be afraid to charge forward. Well said. Well done.
Ghostman
P J Evans @ 65
Oh for fucks sake that one is just too damn ridiculous to even respond to.
The media is really ramping up Al-Qaida propaganda this week. Gee, I wonder why?
The pulled out another “letter” or statement from Zawahiri (funny how that happens) and they’ve been quoting from that. I’d like to see an independent source verify the validity of those Al-Qaida letters. I know I’m a skeptic about all of this, but the timing is always seems suspect.
The NJ story sounds somewhat suspect to me, because terrorists aim to attack the innocent public, not military installations (except in Iraq and Afghanistan, but I suspect those are resistance fighters most likely). Attacking a base in this country does not serve their purposes. It doesn’t create “terror”, and it wouldn’t be particularly “spectacular” or successful.
Tenet was asked by Russert, why we have not seen suicide bombers in this country in public places since 9/11. His response was that they are only interested in spectacular events in this country. That just doesn’t sound right to me. I’ve heard that same thing repeated in the media in the last few days, so it sounds like a talker.
Ghostman @ 67
Thanks, Ghostman. Taking action is what keeps me sane amongst all this horror.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 24
Here’s a link to a story from the NBC affiliate in NYC which has more details about the plotters (h/t Blue Jersey):
Ft. Dix Plot
although I enjoy the occassional pimp slap to the mouthbreathers, I recommend y’all just ignore the 28% – the point by John Dean upthread covers it
it appears to me, here in this once scarlet red TX county, that the 72% is looking for an outlet for their frustrations with all that has gone on
empower them – remind them the Congress works for them and are only at best Temps – hand them contact info . . . and let them talk
I have been handing out business cards w/ contact info the last few years (grocery stores, PTA meetings, school sports, etc. – and because I work with the public and their money – I made up a little End The Occupation ! They Work For You ! http://www.congress.org rubber stamp and stamp it on every bill I use
I’m printing up a fresh batch of contact cards to hand out at gas stations in the coming weeks :)
Apologies, but this just needed to be repeated.
Beeoootiful, Christy. Luvs ya when you’re stoked up & boiling over!
Just like an angry mommabear:
“I DON’T HAVE TIME FOR THIS! DON’T MAKE ME COME DOWN THERE! YOU’LL BE SORRY!”
YESSSSS! & YeeHAW!
Thank you for all that you do. ;->
Sorry, I didn’t preview my post. “sound” and “timing always seems”
Millineryman @ 66
Much more complete listing than mine at 71!
Another NJ source
The Burlington County Times, (Burlington County is where Ft Dix is) is carrying the AP story right now.
http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-…..43084.html
HI NJP, how ya been?
About that NJ plot…
Whenever the Repugs are about to release a bit of bad news they go “Ohmygawdlookattheterroristbomb over there!” I’m waiting for the other shoe to drop. Distract, divide, dumbfound…
Millineryman @ 76
This quote could prove to be a valid motive. I had not seen that:
“It also housed refugees from Kosovo in 1999.”
DrDick @ 19
***
That is one of the best explanations of the difference between liberals and progressives that I’ve seen.
I’m a sometimes (mostly absent) moderator of a small politics and religion chatroom. Mind if I quote you next time I’m trying to explain that to someone? (with full attribution and link to this thread, of course)
LS Says:
“The NJ story sounds somewhat suspect to me, because terrorists aim to attack the innocent public, not military installations (except in Iraq and Afghanistan, but I suspect those are resistance fighters most likely). Attacking a base in this country does not serve their purposes. It doesn’t create “terror”, and it wouldn’t be particularly “spectacular” or successful.”
LS, not to jump on you, but that statement is way off base.
The grandaddy of terrorist attacks before 9/11. The US Marine barracks in Lebanon in the early 80’s.
Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia was a US military barracks.
The attack on the USS Cole.
Even 9/11 hit the Pentagon.
Please reassess your thoughts on this matter.
Hitting a US military installation in America would be considered a very good target for many terrorists.
-GSD
i miss lolo.
GSD @ 55
I agree. Some nut job paintball warriors. Looks like the DOJ is trying to change the subject.
NCBlueneck @ 77
Nice catch-to-be…
ummmm, lessee,
gonzo,
goodlingbling,
condigger,
tenetacious,
oooh – woolfuritzer
um….
better have a baseball mitt & a bucket to dump all the balls in as ya catch’em
NCBlueneck @ 76
yeah, a little msm softening before wolfie resigns perhaps.
I have some refugee friends from the Kosovo region, and a couple of them were very brutally tortured during that conflict. They love America. It is possible though that factions could hold long-term grudges against the U.S. that has been further ignited by the anti-islamic rhetoric in this country. It will be interesting to see how this pans out.
Millineryman @ 76
I have to admit I am skeptical. Especially by plot was in “planning stage.” I hope this wasn’t some time of Hooveresque or Elizabethean Catholic-catching entrapment scheme.
OT ~ Jon Stewart with The ClusterF&*K to the White House
McCain PS: “I had red jello today! Where’s my nurse?”
1,510 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Hardin Smith and the Firepup Patriots:
“So you can help or get the hell out of the way. Because we are fighting for the soul of our nation…”
EEEEDOGGIES…HERE THEY COME NOW!!!
Great post Sister Hardin Smith. We all have our own peculiar or particular individual interests, economically or socially in the existing system and many of us are willin’ to shake up the system up to the point that it might cost us somethin’ from our “special interest”. If I hear you correctly, you are callin for some serious changes, includin’ the radical idea of implementing the Constitution and the rule of law…that means, dear, that we are gunna hafta take the rot outta the justice system in order to get it to function like it was intended but never has.
The problem with “liberalism” (and I count myself amongst ‘em)is that when it comes time to sacrifice something for the common good that might threaten a personal priviledge or advantage in the existing order of things, the “liberal” gets all conservative. I hope that folks heed yer call and understand that things really need to change and that change may threaten closely held assumptions about things.
Great post…thanx for the lift.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THERE IS NO PLACE TO HIDE!!
Wasn’t there an MO like NJ down in FL not too long ago?
Eyes of the world @ 57 says:
I agree usually. But in this case, it’s reaction to their having specifically said that they like to spout the talking points and then let Rust know how they got the “libtard” all excited and arguing with them. I decided I wasn’t going to give them the pleasure of using me to gain points with Rust. Passive/aggressive non-engagement I guess.
plainjane @ 82
Paintball warriors! I love it. I think I am going to use that on the quasi-militant macho from now on.
Have I mentioned yet today that Dick Morris is an asshole?
DickHead: It’s ‘Convenient’ To Keep U.S. Troops In Iraq So Terrorists Can Kill Them ‘Around The Corner’
GSD @ 80
I do agree with your premise, but also consider that those incidents were operations by Middle Eastern terrorists on Middle East soil (or water) – other than the Pentagon (which is not a base). The New Jersey situation is related to the Kosovo conflict.
I’m not saying Al-Qaida would not attack a military base in the United States, I’m just saying that it hasn’t happened so far. No argument with you at all.
The revolution should be conceived and planned in the cold of winter- objective- hard passionless- and executed in the heat of summer when the fires burn through the night.
FT Dix story -
just for fun, I googled USA NJ, after all, he did open an investigation on Bob Menendez just before 06 election (which blew up in their faces!) oh, and happens to highlight his ‘election law’ background in his C.V.
but look at that mug
wiki
and I thought they were against cloning !
I keep coming back again and again to Thomas Jefferson:
The Safest Depository for democracy
On arguing with conservatives–I find that laughing at em is the best weapon.
Millineryman @ 76
Busy! Lots of deadlines for grant proposals and reports at work, and lots of family stress for Mr. NJP: both of his parents were taken to the hospital on April 21. His dad was okay and sent home a few days later–but gave up driving last year, so is not self-sufficient. Mr. NJP and his sister [who lives in CT] have been tag-teaming caring for their 80-year old father while making arrangements for home health assistance, which finally started Friday. Meanwhile my mother-in-law was quite ill with colitis. She’s finally better, and was sent to a nursing facility [or half-way house as we like to call it *g*] last Friday. Naturally, modern American health care being what it is, she was sent in a hospital gown, so I took the train from my office to his parents’ hometown, and we picked up clothes and other personal items for her and delivered them to the half-way house. Mr. NJP’s sister came down on Sunday, and brought more things for her mom. Mr. NJP goes back tomorrow to take his dad for bloodwork. Hopefully his mom will be coming home next week. For now, she’s getting a workout with the physical and occupational therapists at the half-way house!
tw3k @ 28
Bark!
GSD @ 80 how is an attack on the heavily armed Military men (The grandaddy of terrorist attacks before 9/11. The US Marine barracks in Lebanon in the early 80’s.)who have occupied your country and fired artillery shells at you and your people a terrorist attack?
Bay State Librul @ 14
This has been obvious for a long time; gas dropped to its lowest price just before the November elections, and has been rising steadily ever since. The Bush administration has clearly been manipulating the strategic reserves, and refinery slowdowns have undoubtedly contributed as well. Charles Schumer is now finally planning an investigation. Hope this one will shed more light than the last one.
rwcole @ 96
rw – don’t you live in O.C.?
You must laugh a lot.
It’s good to be the king by Dana Milbank.
cbl @ 95
There should be a yak/spew alert for that.
DoJ tanks. Everyone should be fired. Resumes combed through. I sincerely feel that.
mmmm, old u2…
Yes…
I cant believe the news today
Oh, I cant close my eyes and make it go away
How long…
How long must we sing this song?
How long? how long…
cause tonight…we can be as one
Tonight…
Broken bottles under childrens feet
Bodies strewn across the dead end street
But I wont heed the battle call
It puts my back up
Puts my back up against the wall
Sunday, bloody sunday
Sunday, bloody sunday
Sunday, bloody sunday
And the battles just begun
Theres many lost, but tell me who has won
The trench is dug within our hearts
And mothers, children, brothers, sisters torn apart
Sunday, bloody sunday
Sunday, bloody sunday
How long…
How long must we sing this song?
How long? how long…
cause tonight…we can be as one
Tonight…
Tonight…
Sunday, bloody sunday (tonight)
Tonight
Sunday, bloody sunday (tonight)
(come get some!)
Wipe the tears from your eyes
Wipe your tears away
Wipe your tears away
I wipe your tears away
I wipe your blood shot eyes
Sunday, bloody sunday
Sunday, bloody sunday
(here I come!)
And its true we are immune
When fact is fiction and tv reality
And today the millions cry
We eat and drink while tomorrow they die
The real battle yet begun
To claim the victory jesus won
On…
Sunday bloody sunday
Sunday bloody sunday…
Jayt
What’s O.C.? Orange County?
Actually I am just south of there- north san diego county. Same thing though I guess.
OT..
Pentagon Tells 35,000: Prepare to Deploy
LOLITA C. BALDOR | AP | May 8, 2007 11:19 AM EST
Compare other versions
Compare with
WASHINGTON — The Pentagon has notified more than 35,000 soldiers and Marines to be prepared to deploy to Iraq beginning this fall, a move that would allow commanders to maintain the ongoing buildup of troops through the end of the year if needed.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wi…..raq-troops
I am beginning to think that Bush is trying to run out the clock because he has been told that the Military has no plan and no idea how to get the troops out of Iraq. Gilliard made this point several times using his “maps”.
Mornin’ Pups
klyde @ 100
I agree with you.
It also helps to define what is terrorism.
The Lebanon barracks attack was a suicide attack and it was carried out by “non-state” actors. How you would have a ’state actor’ in a country like 1980’s Lebanon is beyond me. So it was called a “terrorist attack” instead of an attack on a military base.
The point I was making is that there are plenty of attacks by those deemed terrorists that were aimed at military targets and not merely non-military or civilian targets.
No quibbles at all.
-GSD
Klyde, although I would argue about “heavily armed”. Remember the post guards didn’t have rounds in their weapons in order to fire at the bomber as he crashed through the gates.
This diary at Kos examines whether Tenet perjured himself in testimony about whether he had met with Bush regarding terrorist threats expressed in the 8/6/01 PDB:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..24813/4868
NJP_ Wow, sorry to hear about all that. Having been the primary caretaker for both of my parents, I know what a strain that situation is. Mr. NJP parent’s are fortunate to have you both, and Mr. NJP’s sister. Hang in there, and I’m sending some energy your way.
I just loved this line from the Milbank article:
Bush: The president couldn’t help injecting a bit of his political agenda into the royal visit. “We’re resisting those who murder the innocent to advance a hateful ideology, whether they kill in New York or London, or Kabul or Baghdad,” he read with the queen at his side.
Steve @ 107
Gee Dubya has cut and run from governing….
Seems like ol’ times in Alabammy
I had a friend take the Bay Area Model Mugging (BAMM) course a few years back. Basically down and dirty street fighting technique for women to fend off attackers. They had a saying – “When someone attacks you, they give up their right not to be hurt by you.”
Seems appropriate somehow…
GSD @ 79
how exactly do you define terrorism?
i don’t disagree with your conclusion… but i wouldn’t call attacks on military installations “terrorism”… acts of war, or guerrilla attacks maybe… but not terrorism.
this use of the label “terrorist” to describe anyone who attacks us is not useful or accurate, imo.
albert fall @ 34
Hmmm…GeorgeSimian @ 35
ITA. Endless double standards drive me nutty. Rs can dish it but can’t take it. Perhaps we can counter with “We’re sorry you feel that way. However, we’re entitled to our feelings too!”?
The Republican party is incredibly narcissistic. I know that label might be overused, but it’s still relevant.
GSD @ 109
Would it be too Chomskesque to answer: American hegemony determines what’s terrorist or not? American 18thc. revolutionaries would be terrorists if the British had won the war.
HotFlash @ 98
:)
“Islamic Radicals”…that is how MSNBC is describing the NJ terrorists..
I would imagine most people assume they are part of Al-Qaida at this point. Misleading the public.
Here’s how ya hash conservatives:
The Daily Show’s Jon Stewart considered the Republican candidates’ performances at their debate last week and found the GOP hopefuls struggling to balance the optimism of former President Ronald Reagan with the hardships the country faces now.
Stewart noted the trouble distinguishing the candidates in the 10-member field, introducing frontrunners Sen. John McCain, Gov. Mitt Romney and Mayor Rudy Giuliani along with “that guy, some other white guy, Honkey McGee, Pasty Face Jones, Alabaster Q Vanilla-Cheeks, Tommy Thompson and, let’s say, Mr. Pickles.”
The Daily Show host noted McCain’s promise to follow Osama bin Laden “to the gates of hell” seemed incongruous juxtaposed against the mischievous smile with which the Arizona senator followed the statement.
A correspondent reporting from “The Gates of Hell,” revealed to be in South Jersey, said the harsh rhetoric was necessary because President Bush “has raised the bar on hollow threats so high.”
“It seems that what the base is looking for in a president is a pro-life optimist with a sadistic streak,” Stewart mused, to which correspondent Aasif Mandvi responded, “It’s midnight in America.”
Hallo all,
as an impartial observer of the US political scene, one thing strikes me as a “given”. There are 28% of US voters who are “died in the wool” Republicans – nothing you do will change them; about 35% are similarly committed to the Democratic party. This leaves about two thirds of the voters as “undecided”. These are your targets, don’t preach to the converted – get the undecided on your side.
You know the areas – universal health care, fighting corruption, the Iraq war, regaining the Government and the Constitution.
I think the American people know that the Bush regime is a failure, almost certainly corrupt and bogged down in Iraq.
In France at the weekend 85% of the population voted, get out the vote and you will win.
A propos of yesterday’s discussion of the age of bloggers. A lot of us in the boomer group were involved in the Civil Rights movement and the anti-war movement that followed. Then most of us retreated into the work and pleasure of building our careers, families, and fortunes. In other words, for 30 years we voted Democratic but lived like Republicans. I think what you are seeing on this blog and in other places, something that surfaced most prominently in the fall of 2003 with the rise of Dean’s campaign, is our return to active participation. For my part, I began to get steamed up with the Gingrich victory in 1994, when it became clear what threats were emerging to our life as a political community. It’s also a way of giving back what that community as given to us over our lifetimes.
I think Digby has it right. And I see this every day with my Democratic colleagues, most of whom are not emotionally engaged the way we are. I don’t know if its complacency or denial, probably a bit of both. But it’s there. That is the group most favorably disposed to Clinton and (shudder) Lieberman.
Selise,
Guerrilla attacks is probably the best terminology for sure.
But it is swimming against the tide in America to call all or any of the enumerated attacks anything but terrorism lest ye be considered sympathetic or a fifth columnist.
Needless to say the so called “cowards” who only “kill civilians” is a rather quaint frame job cooked up by those who consider any non combatents killed to be merely ‘collateral damage’.
-GSD
uh-oh. It’s primary day here in Indianapolis.
BIG problems. Lack of machines, lack of people showing up as volunteers. It’s noon here, and still a bunch of polling places which haven’t even opened.
The bad news – The Marion County Clerk, a Democrat, is taking full responsibility.
Hmmm, Freudian slip? Should be “dyed in the wool”
dmg @ 8
“Do nothing and everything will be done.”
Chinese proverb (Confucius, perhaps)
Millineryman @ 111
Thanks, MM. I keeping saying thank you to my mother. She and my father [now deceased] really planned ahead, taking care of wills, health care proxies, durable power of attorney, plus choosing to live in homes with few barriers [first floor bedrooms and bathrooms]. Mr. NJP’s parents will get over this crisis, but the underlying problems still remain: they live in a house and a community that no longer fits their physical abilities. Mr. NJP has been trying to nudge them to do something about moving out of their big two-story suburban house[tho’ in Mr. NJP’s father’s defense, he suggested moving to a smaller home more than a decade ago, but was shot down by Mr. NJP’s mother]. We’ll get a little relief when my mother-in-law gets home, but I don’t think the next few years will be much different from the last two weeks.
Midnight in America.
My, if that ain’t the best frame ever to describe the grim Bush years.
-GSD
mui @ 104
Oh more thoughts on that. I remember watching a heated exchange between Cliff Schechter and a Republikan pundit who kept repeating Dems are corrupt, citing Menendez. They *really* pushed those DoJ hard to come up with dirt, so the pundits could have some BS stories to counter Foleygate and Cunningham, et al.
GSD @ 109
That was a force protection failure on the part of the commanders. All of whom were subsequently promoted by the way. The Marines had their full combat load they weren’t allowed to use it.
What that showed was the arrogant and ignorant mindset of the people in charge. “We’re Americans we’re here to help everyone is going to love us.” This despite the fact that in the days before the attack the Marines had been directing fire from the Missouri at Lebanese villages.
NJ Prog @ 127 — highly recommend stair lifts. Voice of experience. Sometimes home change becomes too overwhelming….
GSD
Yeah “midnight in America has lots of descriptive power- and also makes it clear that dawn will come eventually. (the darkest hour is just before dawn).
GSD @ 122
amen gsd, but i thought swimming against the tide is what we do here? and it’s lots easier when we do it together…
not trying to give you a hard time… just trying to propose that we rethink the language that we use… does it help us? is it the most truthful?
oops ! That was cbl @ 95 quoted at 129.
rwcole @ 131
And it is the antithesis of Reagan’s Morning in America bullshit.
Twisted Martini @ 135
‘cept that means the darkest still is ahead…
This was my favorite from the Stewart quote:
“A correspondent reporting from “The Gates of Hell,” revealed to be in South Jersey, said the harsh rhetoric was necessary because President Bush “has raised the bar on hollow threats so high.”
albert fall @ 34
We had better than that in 2000. it wasn’t enough. make that 3/4 of what’s left.
What’s gonna happen with US/French relations with a Democratic president and Sarko in France. Looks like they are burning cars in protest, and summer strikes may be in the offing.
Sarkozy picks PM to Calm things down
ccmask @ 103
Interesting Article. I dislike the way the MSM is comparing Bush’s 28% approval rating to Jimmy Carter’s rating in 78-79. Why don’t they compare it to Nixon’s approval rating prior to Nixon’s resignation? Bush’s approval rating is lower BTW. I think that is more comparable. IMO.
Very stimulating thought. Worldwide despair and the despair of greed is one source of trouble greater than any. Like the air, fire and water we are given, is also a force for our benefit provided. This force is not tangible but the results are abundant and obvious. This force is common sense. Yet another resource is freely available to all. Curiosity and wonder. How delightful it is to be a human being. Finally, we have an even more powerful resource freely available to all and that is kindness. If we will focus on the causes and cures for despair, it seems to me that we will not perish. I wonder what effect it would have if we met with our neighbors and agreed not to harm them and come to their aid if requested? Could their children play again? I hope so.
fresh thread, gang…
punaiseBiodun scores1,510 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Knut Wickcksell and Firepup Patriots:
“In other words, for 30 years we voted Democratic but lived like Republicans.”
Right on brother…the problem with “Liberals” (myself amongst ‘em sometimes) is that we are all for shakin’ things up until the change threatens one of our privileges or advantages, then we get all conservative. The problem we have right now, however, is that the political opposition we are fightin’ is not conservative but fascist. And the oligarchy that controls the ruling party is protected behind the cloak and dagger of the corporation…so in order to defeat the enemy we are gunna hafta sacrifice some comfort for the long term health of our children.
KEEP THE FAITH AND REMEMBER THAT THE ENEMY COULD GIVE A SHIT ABOUT CONSERVATISM!!
From an AP article on the F5 Tornado that hit Kansas:
“Gov. Kathleen Sebelius said the government’s response to the disaster was limited by ongoing National Guard deployments to the Middle East.
“I don’t think there is any question if you are missing trucks, Humvees and helicopters that the response is going to be slower,” Sebelius said. “The real victims here will be the residents of Greensburg, because the recovery will be at a slower pace.”
White House spokesman Tony Snow rejected the criticism, saying the National Guard had equipment positioned around the country to respond to disasters when requested by states.
More Katrina like responses from the Whitehouse. I guess we should not expect better from this Mis-Administration.
OT, but Think Progress has Fox News clip of Dick Morris saying that we need to leave troops in Iraq to make it easier for terrorists to kill Americans.
plainjane @ 82
no more condition red, orange, etc. gotta do somethin’ ……
mui @ 129
Interesting. Why haul these “Islamic Radicals” in now? Apparently, they’ve been under investigation for a while. It just boggles the mind. It reminds me of the busted British plot, and the plot of those guys in Florida (I wonder whatever happened to them?)
146 comments so far and not one mention of Impeachment! yep, you’re some toughys, alright…
“We will fight them on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets…”
but first a latte
JeffinBerlin @ 121
That’s the key isn’t it? And a key motivation for all the AGAG usa fuckery …
somebody farted ……
fahrender @ 126
actually from the Dao De Jing (tao te ching)
It has occurred to me recently that investing in health insurance companies or pharmaceutical companies (with their inflated profits from battening on us all) is the moral equivalent of investing in South Africa during apartheid.
Any thoughts on this one? Could we get it into the public discourse somehow?
On having PhDs thinking they can educate the Joe and Jane Truckdrivers to their level: The Bolsheviks were caught short in February 1917 when the workers and soldiers moved past them in Petersburg and they were forced to think on their feet without too much thinking.
Of course there was plenty of discussion after the street actions, particularly after the July Days, but the fact is that it was the people who were being shit on who drove that revolution.
Not enough people are suffering here yet, too many people still believe that the American Dream exists and will carry their children through life. Even sending kids to college now has become so commonplace that many people don’t realize that a college degree isn’t necessarily going to do it any more.
Foreclosures, pension thefts, eviscerated social security and medicare, Wal-Mart aprons for everyone with NO benefits….that’s when people are going to wake up in this country.
The damage of the past generation of GOP presidents and GOP;lite in the person of Bubba is not going to be reversed that easily. Just rooting out the Federalist Society pukes is going to take a long, dedicated effort.
My reaction to the inanity has always been, this president is not qualified to run to the bathroom, and his cronies in crime evilly stupid.
They do not care what happens to our country and they should be removed from office now by whatever means necessary-The rule of law is an impediment to that desire and rightly so, if we circumvent it now it will happen again and again and we will be left with country with no real purpose, or stability.
That leaves us in this untenable position of having to live with this son of a bitch ’til congress gets the message that we are done talking, and boy are we done.
KestrelBrighteyes @ 79
Be my guest.
[manhole cover lifts]
*plink*…nudge…nudge…bottle with cork and note inside.
Text of note:
“Suggestion: Keep the front page just like it is – free and open but moderated – but add ‘affinity/culture gathering spots’ on the sidebar with status/activity indicators – and consider having those be available (all access) through monthly subscription.
Let the gathering spots carry the front page and comments, but give the ability for those in a gathering spot to comment either inside the spot thread only, or to both the spot and the main thread. That way each ‘affinity’ group could have it’s own version of ‘thread etiquette’ and defined appropriate manners.
So, for the sake of example – suppose Christy is the active front pager and her commenters are chipping-in their usual great insight and humor.
There may be one or more active gathering spots on the side – for instance ‘Breakfast Club,’ ‘Parenting Support’ and ‘Law Review,’ among others. The people in each room would be seeing both Christy’s main thread plus comments AND carrying-on a ‘Cup of coffee and a shout-out’ thread at the same time in the Breakfast Club.
A design that would both encourage visitors to roam around the site, and to establish themselves as regulars within affinity groups would be ideal, and have the best chance, imvho, of bringing more lurkers into the conversations.”
radiofreewill at 156 — You are cracking me up today with the nudges. *g* Intriguing idea, though — thanks.
Give me a shovel and tell me where to start digging. Bout time!
Great rant Christy and I could not agree with you more. The problem is that for those of us who have been involved in politics and working our asses off before during and after elections for years and years, one of the problems with those who do not get off their butts is that they are out of the way, and they like it that way! The apathy and complacency in this country is rampant! Many Americans do not care.
This is the brutal and ugly truth whether folks want to admit it or not. Our nation has lost its soul and everyone around the world knows it. We are all naked in Baghdad, hundreds of thousands of Iraqi people are dead (millions due to the sanctions during the Clinton years), who knows how many people are injured and millions have been displaced. We have no soul left.
While there are individuals such as yourself and others around our nation that truely care, the military machine and our need for fuel trumps the care that any of us may display and act upon individually.
I think most people know this and it is just too depressing to talk about. Most Americans do not give a fuck! That is the brutal and ugly truth.
Even though I will work on these upcoming elections in 2008 even when the pendulum of our nation swings back to the middle millions of Iraqi’s lives have been lost in the process. Our nation lost its soul long ago and people around the world know it!