Ever since FDL started having chats with authors, politicians and other public figures, we've had one basic rule — be respectful and stay on topic. The reason for that is quite simple, really. Unlike other sites, we don't allow people to post "drive-bys," we ask that they stay in the comments and engage our readership. We expect them to come prepared to talk about the subject/book at hand and to be able to answer questions about it. We're able to do this because we have the best moderators in the blogosphere, a team of readers who are sensitive to the standards of the community and patrol the comments section for abuse and trollage so quickly and seamlessly many people never notice they are there.
In over two years of blogging that policy was never called into question until Hillary Clinton came and posted on equal pay for women. Suddenly people were accusing her of "triangulating" with the issue and criticized us for allowing her to do it. I think I speak for Christy when I say this issue is important to us and, we felt, to our largely female readership, and not one we believed was "triangulated." I think it was to Senator Clinton's credit that she was bringing it up when it wasn't in the headlines. The National Journal came through and cherry picked comments by people who were unhappy and thought we were sell-outs for coddling Senator Clinton. I'll just say that nobody leveled these criticisms when Chris Dodd came to talk about his bill opposing escalation or John Kerry appeared here to chat about his book and leave it at that.
There were, however, questions raised as to what exactly "on topic" means, and that's something I'd like to have a discussion about. People are, I believe, on the whole respectful when public figures take the time to show up here and engage our audience, but as guests they should be prepared to answer tough but civil questions when they are posed to them in the comment section. I will say that I believe I made a mistake with Senator Clinton's appearance in that I did not announce what the topic would be beforehand (it was all rather last minute) and it did not give people a chance to familiarize themselves with it and prepare questions that would be relevant. I don't think I would do that again.
I think Matt Stoller gave a good example of what a tough but fair on-topic question was during the discussion:
Thank you for showing up here and spending some time with us. Here’s my question, and I hope you don’t mind if it’s a bit frank. If you couldn’t even get a hearing or creatively work to generate attention for this legislation in the last Congress, why should we trust you to be able to pass this legislation?
And during the John Kerry Book Salon discussion the next day, Peterr had this to say:
So what’s to be done about the “lack of concern” by the Bush Administration? The roadblocks, obstacles, footdragging, and more have to be overcome, and your chairmanship of a critical subcommittee can be a strong platform for doing just that. Your committee website shows a number of hearings scheduled, but nothing that strikes me as related to “oversight.”
Both of those are pretty easy calls. Anyone should be prepared to have these kinds of questions leveled at them during a discussion. Things get a bit murkier with a point Hackworth' raised during the Hillary Clinton chat:
The issue of equal pay for women is very important (child care, also)but we have gotten so far behind the eight ball on this issue because of the successes of the VRWC juggernaut. It has had a domino effect. Where we are now (on so-called womens’ issues) relates to support for Bush’s war, support for Lieberman (and the converse – lack of viable support for Lamont, not Hillary so much but Big Dog), the NARAL issue re: Lieberman and Supreme Ct nominees, appointments, cloture, etc. It relates to how we got here and how we have been unable to improve conditions for working women.
I think it's absolutely considered "on-topic" and completely fair to raise outside issues if they have a bearing on the topic at hand, and I believe that they would have in this particular case. I wish the question had been posed earlier while the Senator was here and had had a chance to respond.
I'll also note for the record that I didn't notice anyone who complained that no "tough questions" were being asked actually showed up and asked any. If that's your complaint, I'm going to be looking for you to be here and have some prepared the next time something like this happens. I promise to do my part and let you know in advance when that will be.
This is new, it's a process and we're excited that our community can interact with public figures in what we hope will be an increasingly meaningful way. We'd like to open it up and hear what you have to say on the subject, the parameters we set, and how we might improve what we're trying to do.




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ZED?
zed?
missed it by THAT much…
Jane!
Thanks for the tip Adie, now to go downstairs and tell everyone
{{{JANE}}}
tip? did I mention clairvoyant?
pre-zeded!
typo alert Jane Constitutes it should be.
(p.s. everyone, Jane has always said she is happy to have her typos pointed out…)
Now, back to the post.
That pretty much puts it to rest for me. Kind of like, “don’t bitch if you don’t vote”.
I’m not impressed by people that are really good at identifying problems, rather the people that are really good at identify solutions are the ones I surround myself with.
Present company included.
There was nothing that either Hillary or you could have said that would have made a bit of difference to the critics. The right will make up crap out of whole cloth if they have to. I wouldn’t worry about it.
T- @ 8
I’ll take some of the blame for that due to the fact that I didn’t give advance notice, so the post took people by surprise. Still, it would’ve been more convincing if they’d actually formulated some tough questions even ex-post-facto, rather than just jumping on people who showed up and did ask questions for being some kind of Stepford commenters. It was, I thought, unfair.
Thank you for a particularly intelligent and sensitive analysis of a very difficult issue. I agree that FDL’s oversight of comments is among the very best in the b-sphere, let alone the MSM. If I have any issue with what you say, it is only that you pay your critics too high a compliment by spending your time on their muddleheaded or churlish (or both!) griping.
Adie @ 5
Pull the other one Adie, its got bells on.
Jane, your monitoring of FDL content is admirable. I have found that, all to often, on other sites rude and personal comments are posted, most of them irrelevant. Here I know that if I comment, maybe disagreeing with a POV, no-one is going to get personal.
The comments in last thread were entertaining and interesting. It was amazing how many Firepups were willing to share personal info. I cannot think of another blog where this would happen.
Stay as sweet as you are, don’t let a thing everchange you.
*g*
Noen at 9: “There was nothing that either Hillary or you could have said that would have made a bit of difference to the critics. The right will make up crap out of whole cloth if they have to. I wouldn’t worry about it.”
I’m guessing that it was “our side” doing the criticizing?
Jane,
I was startled to see Hillary arrive, startled that she was available, startled that she would even look at the Lake.
I have never thought she was at all committed to the values most of us here espouse.
But good on her for coming. Maybe next time we can get her to talk about health care (her position being distinct from many of ours). Maybe later we can talk about Iraq, where we really differ.
But I think we need to show these totally exalted types that the grass roots thinks about these issues and can add valuable input to the policy debates. Once she’s hooked, she’ll be back for more opinions unlike her own.
I think you did a great job of balancing her accountability and our manners.
Thanks you Jane. I very much appreciate the author / politician visits and try to stay on topic when I am here. Sometimes, however, it is impossible to stay the entire hour.
There is one thing though. They more political celebs that you have over to chat, the more of the undesirables (and not just right wing trolls either) you’ll attract.
Something to keep in mind.
But I definitely want you to keep the interaction going. That is the main reason I come here.
Personally, Jane, I’m glad that you have allowed the site to be flexible regarding the nature of questions asked. People such as John Kerry and Hillary Clinton are politicians whose views on a number of subjects are important for the rest of us to understand. Consequently, while they may come here to chat about a specific topic, we receive so little “face time” with our representatives that it’s not surprising questions would veer toward what truly interests us rather than just one particular topic. So far, I think FDL has handled this very well, and I have rarely seen a rude or nonsensical question put forth to either authors or politicians who have stopped by. However, if you have specific ground rules you want to enforce, I suggest bold-typing them in the preface to the visit to make sure the rules are known in advance by all the participants.
randiego @ 13
I’m not sure I understand.
I concur. Not only in the preface, but also in any announcements that appear ahead of time.
I am someone who can very easily go off on tangents. But I also do not mind being told to get back on topic or shut-up. Since I’ve always talked too much, I learned r-e-a-l early not to be offended by being told to shut-up.
If I haven’t read the book or followed a topic closely enough, I’ll offer my thanks to the person visiting then go into lurking mode and with any luck, maybe learn something.
Too bad the corporate owned media noise machines don’t have the basic respect that a five year old has for santa claus.
Alison @ 14
gotta agree.gotta agree.
She announced her campaign as a conversation, and you’ve engaged her in that conversation. I’m looking forward to the conversation with her continuing here.
Hi Jane:
Mostly female readership? I hadn’t previously thought of FDL as trending one way or the other gender-wise. I know you were connecting to the equal pay issue and its importance and not making a larger demo point.
Just curious: What is the demography of this site? Seems to be a hot topic in the toobz last few days.
Jane,
I think it is fantastic that you get this level of people to be on FDL.
Maybe the sensation of having someone like Hillary might cause some OT but I don’t see it as a big problem.
You folks are doing a marvelous job – keep it going!!
Kevster @ 22
You might want to peruse the comments from the previous thread…
Wow. Tweety just got Tenet up against the wall. Why did we really go to war with Iraq?
Tenet said all kinds of reasons. Oh..ain’t that sweeet.
Jane (and the whole FDL gang). In case no one has done it today, I will. Thanks for arranging such great opportunities to question and interact with policy makers and thought leaders.
Because of FDL, I have had dialogue with the former ambassador of Iraq, Senator John Kerry, Sen Hillary Clinton and countless authors, filmmakers, politicos and personalities of our day… and I have even had the opportunity to meet them in person and interview them on film.
You guys are the greatest! My MS Outlook calendar frequently has an entry in it reminding me to stop in for said discussions.
Thanks so much to all of you!
(on a side note, has anyone ever asked former Sen Max Cleland to join an FDL chat?)
Eli @ 24
there’s like 325 of ‘em
I’m a project manager. We love telling people they are ‘off-topic’ – it’s part of the job description
Jane, you absolutely can speak for me that equal pay issues are important. (And, btw, a bragging moment: WV has the highest level of parity, along with DC, at a female 90 cents on the male dollar in equal pay considerations of all the states. The WSJ just had an article on this yesterday. So no more hillbilly jokes.)
As for having guests here, we have extended invitations to all the Democratic candidates for President and are working with staffs to get them here to talk with you guys. Because Jane and I think this is important, not only to give them an unfiltered opportunity to chat with you all one on one, but also because you learn a LOT from what they will — and will not — answer, whether they answer fully, and how they do or do not interact. In fact, we’d like them to come back for more than one visit, but working out scheduling for even one visit with all the work going on in Congress and campaign appearances and such is tough enough.
All that said, I think of these appearances, whether Blue America or Book Salon or candidate or whatever, as something my granny would have called “company behavior.” You can ask tough questions, you just can’t be an ass about it, and I think that’s a pretty good rule of thumb when you are operating in a public space, in person or using an anonymous pseudonym or what-have-you. But maybe that’s just my granny and my momma’s insistence on good manners talking.
I second the point about asserting the topic with a BOLD highlight. At any given moment, many of us are reading FDL while doing other things (like, uh, “working”), and I for one cannot always take the time to read every single word carefully.
I do not consider assertions by posters of the stated topic to be rude or off-putting (nor would it matter if I did). As FDL gets larger, the road has more than one lane and traffic signs are essential.
Jane, thank you again for the thoughtful treatment of both content and guests that makes this the best-moderated site on the web.
JeffinBerlin @ 12
It’s interesting because the community standard is kind of organic and it took me a while to realize that it was iindependent of me and other front pagers. I think we have a lot of women here who aren’t interested in the kind of brass knuckle commenting confrontations that can happen on DailyKos and other sites and so a community has grown up around the conversations that our moderating system makes possible. I personally used to get in the comments and scrap with folks in a way I don’t do any more because (and I think it was Jeffrey Feldman and/or Eli who pointed it out) front pagers “speak with the voice of God” or something like that, which basically meant that the contest was too heavily weighted on one side and that it actually stiffled discussion. Sometimes we have to adapt, too.
BTW, I don’t moderate. I think in the past six months I might have tossed two comments into moderation for the mods to decide whether they stay or go; one stayed, the other went. So anyone who wants to accuse me of deleting critics, doesn’t happen. We actually have a rule that you can’t delete comments on your own post, you can only subject them to moderation, and then the mods decide what happen. That keeps abuse to a minimum.
Althouse criticized Clinton’s decision to blog at Hamsher’s site. “Firedoglake is a hardcore place, and Clinton doesn’t belong there,” Althouse said.
What, exactly, constitutes hard core? What a load of…
My personal opinion about what is On Topic is quite liberal, meaning that if the discussion leads into other thoughts and ideas worth discussing it should be ok. Iconoclastic derailment of the original topic is usually obvious to all (except sometimes the poster). Common sense seems to be key.
Jane thank you for having all these important people come and talk to us. It is so exciting to share FDL with others who have no idea that blogs like this exists. I am so grateful.
lolo
Cozumel @ 33
Was she drinking her big glass of whine when she said that, as per usual?
grayslady @ 17
We generally do that. But the conversation did arise afterwards as to what “on topic” meant and Pach and other said they felt it would be helpful if I clarified, that they themselves didn’t necessarily know that Hackworth’s question, for instance, is something I would have considered acceptable.
Jane- kudos for having Hillary here. The ground rules and expectations were exactly the same as any “specific topic” post- mostly book salon- that I’ve seen here. I think this got extra attention because it was Hillary and some one or some more thought they could get attention by hollering “Scandal! scandal!”.
I really don’t think you should feel that you did anything amiss.
Jane Hamsher @ 32
I think I was just repeating what Pach had said about why he doesn’t comment very much…
If anyone had questions hurled at them about 100 different issues, they would get exhausted very quickly and think twice about coming on blogs.
I would suggest that you delete comments that are off topic and post a “modnote” that staying on topic will enable a deeper conversation about the subject. It is better to have a deep conversation on one topic for both sides. Someone like Hillary would get a better sense of our concerns and we would get a sense of her sincerity once we get past the talking points.
I was one of the people here yesterday with Mike Farrell and the conversation we had with him was amazing; he was here for more than two hours and if I am not mistaken, every comment was relevant to him.
Jane Hamsher at 32:
You speak for me here. That type of commentary strikes me as more about public performance than actual back-and-forth communication. We get enough of that from the corporate media. YMMV, but I really appreciate the way you’ve allowed the comment style to develop here.
xoites defends Constitution @ 34
Does comming into a thread with breaking news, or news that you believe is important, constitute going off topic? ‘Cause I do that sometimes, but only because I believe it is of importance or of interest.
Welcoming, savvy questioning, a genuine willingness to be better informed…but no sweetheart steno-ing or chasing shiny objects on cue.
Would that the White House Press Corps and Beltway “journos” could rise to one tenth the standards and quality of FDL’s Ladies of the Lake and all we who read and comment for manners and staying On Topic with guests.
Cozumel @ 33
This doesn’t make sense to me. I get it that rightys and hacks like Althouse hate Clinton and FDL too.
It’s the netroots that criticize the Clintons for ‘triangulating’. Does that mean it’s someone in the netroots that was criticizing FDL?
Jane?
Sorry if I’m missing something, but it has always seemed to me that you’ve done all that could be expected of you to make these chats work out well, and to stay relatively on topic.
You’ve plead guilty to having been a little late to inform the readers of Hillary Clinton visit and subject. Hey, you’re not perfect. Oh the humanity! :0) Thank you for that, Jane. Beyond that though, you or Christy whomever is leading the blog at the time of a chat , preface the chat with a notice on decor, and then remind the readers and posters now and again along the way.
I don’t know what more you could do.
jane_jericho @ 41
Yeah, as annoying as trolls are, the antics of commenters showing off their troll-slaying prowess can sometimes be even worse. Although there are a rare few whose technique I do admire.
Jane, let me strongly underline Nate#26, and add that I think your instincts and priorities for the site are simply flawless.Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
While I hope that everyone stays respectful, I know that people will probably get their back up a little bit because even people on the left have strong feelings about Senator Clinton. As far as the National Journal, that can’t be helped. They are always gonna take the most inflammatory crap and use it. I do hope Jane & crew can get more politicians to stop by the Lake. It’s part of what makes this place interesting.
randiego @ 28
I’m your worst nightmare. S/W QA with a little knowledge in a lot of areas. Dangerous. Very dangerous.
Perhaps there’s a certain amount of structural discomfort at work here: I’ve stayed out of some of the Book Salon chats because it can get a bit hectic when a well-known guest shows up, and because I don’t want to be one of ‘those people’: you know, the people who hang around the stage after a gig, then end up saying something inane. (That was me ten years ago.)
The Hillary thread was different because it wasn’t announced, which was good for the regulars who were around at the time, and for the general signal-noise ratio, but less good for those who arrived an hour later.
What I like about the format is that the guests implicitly accept the structural terms by which FDL runs. But that can sometimes be a big ask, and it’s important not to get impatient with someone who’s even lurkier than a lurker, if that makes sense.
So in those kinds of situations, I might be more comfortable with a twist on the format, and a degree of moderation that ensures the guest isn’t overwhelmed — it’s a rare visitor who’s as conscientious as John Dean was — but also creates room for spur-of-the-moment questions.
When Slashdot had guest interviews back in the day, they’d ask for pre-submitted questions: not to screen them for content, but just to maximise the time that the guest could devote to them. That model can sacrifice some of the spontaneity, but it also means that good questions won’t get overlooked just because there’s a hundred of them posted at once.
Kitt @ 45
I think a lot of the frustration was with the topic itself. People have a *lot* of pointed questions they’re dying to ask Hillary, but generally not on the subject of equal wages.
But hey, you still have to go to war with the topic you have, and respect the ground rules and site etiquette.
Jane, Christy et al:
Fabulous site with very measured opinion and insight. I’ve never seen the kind of food fights that are common elsewhere.
I hope you can get the other candidates to stop by as Hillary did. Peter Daou I’m sure had something to do with her appearance. It was great and very validating for FDL-kudos.
randiego @ 44
Why do we care what Althouse says?
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 48
Waxman, Waxman Waxman!
T- @ 8
You-all may, then, be talking to me. I mostly stayed on the prev thread and did not pose any questions to Ms Clinton that I thought would be awkward for our hostesses. I am well aware whose punchbowl it is. But 1.) until informed by Jane (in response to a grumble of mine) I was not aware that the topic had been circumscribed to women’s pay at Our Ladies’ request, and 2.) I still think that a declared candidate for president should be prepared to answer the legitimate questions of prospective voters. Such as, if elected, what is your plan for Iraq? Afghanistan? How do you propose to restore competency and trust to DoJ and the other govt agencies that have been compromised by partisan rule under the Bush admin? Also, I was not aware that I am responsible for what the National Journal writes — sorry. I’m not even sure what the National Journal is.
It is likely that this woman will end up with the Dem nomination and I think it is my business to find out what she will do if elected. And I am not so well-connected that I get a chance to talk to a presidential candidate every day. So, what does everyone think I should have done? Seems like I was damned if I did and damned if I didn’t.
jane_jericho @ 41
I am a man, but i can tell you that slinging crap at people irritates the hell out of me. This site impresses me so much chiefly because of the civility of its discourse.
xoites defends Constitution @ 34
Some people instantly show a willingness to veer off topic, and in that case we allow the person themselves to set the tone that commenters will follow. It is, as you say, largely common sense. I will give Hillary credit, someone asked her a question about Matthews which was off-topic and she fielded it, which I do consider license for others to go there. Now whether they’ll answer these questions or not is another matter.
People gave David Broder shit for getting hammered during his WaPo chat, but actually Broder himself gets to select what questions he will or will not take under that format so I give him credit for personally selecting the tough ones. Here there is no such filter, the question (if civil and on-topic) will appear and if the person doesn’t want to answer it that becomes apparent, too. It’s got to be a bit frightening for someone who’s got a lot to lose, so I think Hillary’s willingness to open herself up to something like that is admirable. As someone said above, people generally like the experience of doing chats here and as time goes on I hope both our readers will become more comfortable with the format and that we can provide a forum for public figures to come and talk about controversial matters.
It’s a learning curve.
jane_jericho @ 41
I quit hanging around HuffPo mainly because you can’t have a rational, reasonable “conversation’ over there. As a WM, not everything or everybody has to be “in your face” all the time.
dakine01 @ 49
“Project Manager”: new term basically meaning ‘professional taskmaster and cat-herder’
PS – I used to do S/W QA in DC
See Greg Palast on HRC…and what about the whole chuminess with the Bushes and Mena, Ark., etc? Can’t we get a break from the Bush/Clinton dynasty?
I thought it was nice that I greeted Kerry and noted that I was with him at Dewey Canyon III and I didn’t get slapped down. He returned the greeting and nobody seemed to think it was inappropriate even though it may have been a bit off topic.
noen @ 42
No, I did not mean that at all. I really mean changing the subject as opposed to adding to it.
Good point, Jane.
One of the reasons I stopped receiving the National Journal was because it was becoming too much like the Economist, an enabler for this administration’s acts by wimpish reporting, with the admireable exception of Murray Waas.
I must say, I have more disposable dinero now that I stopped both publications.
If Senator Clinton wants to succeed in her bid for the oval office she needs both the support and input from many of the folks who spend time here. She made mistakes as well but none that cannot be overcome by returning and continuing the conversation.
I hope she and other candidates will participate in a series of conversations here.
And what Prairie Sunshine said…)
I participate primarily in Late-Night and Late-Late-Night which tend to encourage off-topic. I often post links to off-topic interesting news stories at that hour. But I try to be closer to on-topic during the day, and most especially when we have a celeb visitor.
Petrocelli @ 40
Yep.
Christy, Pach and I try to give warnings first and then the mods do start deleting with modnotes.
Hear Hear Jane and Christy!
If we ask tough questions – but tough questions that are actually designed to allow the guest to answer and state their position – everyone gains.
And I always ask – would I ask this question in this way if I were talking face to face with them?
noen @ 42.
noen- this “no off topic” stuff only applies to posts like Book Salon and chats with pols. e.g. “breaking news” should be posted on earlier thread.
However, as far as I can tell, there has never been any objection to “OT” stuff like breaking news, or breaking computers, or what have you on any other threads. There are sometimes 3 or 4 different conversations going on as particular threads develop.
The topic here is
I’ve never gotten the sense that staying on topic at other times was all that big of a deal, folks normally just ignore you.
Yes, Jane!!!!
One quick comment about the National Journal. They are bush bootlickers.
noen @ 42
I’ve been here since the fall of 2005. Back in the day, Jane would pluck breaking news out of the comments to make her next post. So I’m going to go out on a limb and say unless otherwise specified (Book Salon, etc. ) off topic and breaking news is OK
ducking ; )
xoites defends Constitution @ 62
We’re pretty much talking about chats here. Personally I don’t really care if my threads go OT because when you post here 3 or 4 times a day you just don’t, you get your best fodder for new posts that way anyway. I do know that when people only guest post here once a week they can feel a bit hurt if they put tons of work into a post and then show up to chat and people are suddenly talking about American Idol, so you can imagine that it would be off-putting to someone who’s never done an online chat before. Hence the rule.
If I may interrupt-Hi, TexBetsy! I for one have never seen you post anything at any time that wasn’t both interesting and relevant.
Sorry-back to your regularly scheduled genius.
Texas Betsy @ 65
Sounds reasonable to me Betsy. The late night threads are clearly open.
“to our largely female readership”?
Really? Do you have any statistics on that? I would have guessed it was probably about a 50/50 split. Is that commenters? Or just “readers”? Is this from the blog survey that is going around the last week?
noen @ 74
Late nite wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for OT.
Jane Hamsher @ 57
But as I said upthread, it’s important to make allowances for those who aren’t blog regulars: simply overlooking a question can be perceived in this environment as deliberately ignoring it, and it’s important to dial down some the assumptions that come from familiarity with the medium.
So the learning curve inclines in both directions, just as being a guest works both ways. You’ve been invited into someone else’s place, and certain privileges should be extended to you — but you don’t own the place.
(A guest won’t get short shrift for rearranging the towels in the bathroom, but he/she’s expected to flush the toilet.)
Eventually, I hope that this will become second-nature on both ends. But it’ll only come about from actually doing chats and guest-posting.
randiego @ 59 says:
Got any work for an unemployed CSQE, with some financial background to go with the tech side, manual testing, DoD QA prior to CMM, and an ability to write coherent sentences? Not a programmer so weak on automated testing and only limited web testing. A lot of client server testing of social service apps. Willing to move most anywhere in the country. Desperate! :})
Jane Hamsher @ 57
I will tell you what i am learning. I am learning to love this site in a fast 24 hours. :)
RonD @ 73
Thank you dear!
Welcome xoites defends Constitution . Glad to have you along!
OT: Just to let people know about some really interesting programming this evening, including “Sir No Sir”:
http://peace.meetup.com/157/calendar/5702826/
So many useful comments. I’m glad Jane brought this up, and Sen. Clinton’s appearance here is a great example of why it is time to talk about keeping close to the topic of a particular post.
When fdl hosts a particular person, like at the book salon or blue america, or pols like Sens. Kerry and Clinton, this place polices itself better than the people of Singapore keep their streets clean. And when the live blogging happens, it is sometimes remarkable how restrained this community can be.
But there need to be common sense-oriented rules for going OT at a high traffic blog that is one-topic-at-a-time-vertically-integrated. Like when the CEO of the biggest oilfield service company in Alaska history and publisher of the most highly-read right wing newsletter in Alaska quietly cops a plea to multiple felony charges, bringing the state’s GOP machine to its knees.
Permission, forgiveness, permission, forgiveness? – I’ll go for forgiveness on this one, pups.
Jane Hamsher @ 72
Ok, makes sense to me.
Texas Betsy @ 81
As a good “online” friend and fan of xoites… I add my welcome. Your insightful voice is most welcome here.
Jane,
much love and I think you win this one by changing fields.
“On Topic vs. Tangent Topics” is a red herring and to respond to your critics within that dialectic leaves you holding the bag for the obvious errors of an impromptu event and defending yourself to people who are envious of your connections. Period.
As for formats, no need to reinvent the wheel. We’ve already seen how interactive interviewing works.
Now, Think Hybrid: LiveFeed/WebCam is the next evolution in hosting forums&salons on Blogs. Here’s how it could work:
1) FDL could first post a run-up of Pay Equity history
2) FDL could interview & post Sen. Clinton’s stance on 3-5 critical subtopics & get her to succinctly state, written (blog) or orally (LiveFeed), her proposed solutions
3) FDLers would then prepare questions & submit them, Mods would facilitate & drive convo
4) Comments and new questions would evolve as the discussion progressed (just like we do with Senate Hearings)
5) We’d actually get somewhere!
You get the best of all worlds:
1) Historic Background
2) Candidate Stance
3) Constituent Feedback
4) 360 perspective & conversation inspired innovation — which is the point of how our government is supposed to work, anyways.
Dare I say, this format could work across blogs, so that a number of communities of bloggers could be tapped for perspective and innovation. Hah, and that’s where the “market” could really make things interesting.
Which blog came up with the best questions?
In coaching, we call it “Powerful Questions”
And IMO, the BLOGOSPHERE & our democracy are ripe for it!
Knock Knock. Pounce!
FDL Rocks!
One question, Jane: do you have a standard ‘pre-chat prep’ for Book Salon guests, just to give them a sense of what they’ll be participating in once the thread opens?
OT Alert!
No way! TPM Muckraker has it (from National Journal) that it was MONICA that covered up the Justice statues!!
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/003166.php
I swear, you can’t write this stuff.
Cozumel @ 71 says:
ducking ; )
Still happens. Christy took a link I posted yesterday morning and ran with it as a topic in the PM. (trying not to look too smug – not succeeding.)
Thank you, Jane. I pointedly didn’t participate in the thread with Senator Clinton because I had nothing to say that was both on topic and would add significantly to the conversation. No matter our individual opinions of Senator Clinton’s position on issues, her campaign, her past works, she is a Senator and her time is short and highly valued by the constituents she serves. I respect that.
I think we still need to have further discussions about equal pay, with or without Senator Clinton; during the last 6-12 years, women’s status has fallen in some areas, and stagnated greatly in others. In spite of the fact that the pipeline of college students has been more than 50% women for a number of years (perhaps approaching a decade?), top level management in corporations continues to resist increasing the number of women in its ranks. Believe that figure is still in the single digits.
And government — we are still in the very low double digits in representation across Congress. Perhaps these figures are the very reason we are dropping backwards as a nation; there are not enough women in critical slots who will say, “Hey, tell me exactly what all the repercussions are of starting a preemptive war…” or some such question. Perhaps there are far too many men in those slots who are competing for air time, competing to be first at getting on board.
It’s clear that what women bring to the table is undervalued consistently, persistently, when we can’t break into upper management without starting our own companies (and we start far more businesses than men), and when we can’t get paid the same for equal work.
jane_jericho- agreed about the tone of interactions at FDL.
Personally, I am quite turned off by online “pee pee pissing matches”, which is my phrase for what you are referring to.
Mods- if I am stretching the boundary of polite language too far, feel free to delete this comment. ;)
Texas Betsy @ 81
Nate @ 85
Thank you Betsy and thank you Nate. :)
Cozumel @ 33
Wait – there’s nudie pix here at FDL? Who’s been holding out!
I think you should have asked questions on topic, if you wanted to, just as you and everyone else was asked to do who came to that specific forum.
Most all of us have the same desire as you to know more, but we all need to try to respect each others time and space.
Common courtesy.
AWMfan @ 11
Amen!!!
Think Progress posted this about half an hour ago:
Government Agencies Push Back On Waxman Request For Rove’s Emails
randiego @ 88
In re: earlier post/request: if you’re DoD, forget it, I can’t get clearances anymore. Too honest for DIS.
Kevster @ 22
Well, first of all, did you think that the generally civilized tone here was testosterone driven? I believe not.
Secondly, re: previous thread of the miscalculation of most bloggers being pajama-wearing youngster actually works to our advantage. Again, a question. did you think it was those young ones who have the time to sift through the docu-dumps to find the gold?
No. That would be people who aren’t out blabbing on their cell phones while driving their suvs to Starbucks.
Viva L’Aged Hippies who care.
dakine01 @ 89
Still happens. Christy took a link I posted yesterday morning and ran with it as a topic in the PM. (trying not to look too smug – not succeeding.)
As she should have. Don’t duck. We all contribute.
Alison @ 14
I agree.
Sorry, I messed up the quote thingy. I’m actually temping today, and, oh…got distracted.
Ed*ard Teller @ 83
ET — we’re only talking about chats here. Regular posts, no problem. We always try to put up a link to the previous thread and invite people to go OT there if they need to.
Dakine01 @ 78
there’s a lot of that type of stuff available in LA – I get offers but no way I’m livin’ up there.
ps – love your screenname
Kitt @ 94
I don’t understand. I thought I was being quite courteous. What do you mean ‘respect each others time and space’?
D. Moore @ 98
Agreed on the aging hippies who care.
However, as someone who, through no fault of his own, is testosterone driven, I’d quibble with separating manners by gender. For all the O’reilly’s and Hannity’s there are also Coulters and Malkins.
Ugh. Must go wash hands from typing those names.
randiego @ 103
I spent four years in aloha land as one haole kine GI.
xoites defends Constitution @ 99
I’m totally due.
Here’s the problem I have with staying “on topic”:
FDL culture right now is pretty much a herd mentality: we all want to be on the latest thread, no matter what the topic. I’ve often felt trapped by this, eagerly interested in a topic that has become superceded by a “new thread upstairs,” which spells the death knell for an interesting topic.
For example, when looseheadprop did her “Prime the Pump” post, about doing our homework and coming up with articles of impeachment for the various BushCo. miscreants, I was all ready to roll up my sleeves and get to work. However, I barely had time to pull together Kucinich’s articles of impeachment on Cheney, and by the time my comment was posted, it was already EPU time, and the herd swarmed over to the new thread “upstairs”. Now, looseheadprop’s story is in the archives and on her website, and they did keep it open for 24 hours, but once the new thread went up, that important “Prime the pump” conversation died.
Fortunately, the “stay on topic” mantra is turned off for the “Late Night” posts, but unless one is into snarky conversation, there’s not as much meat there, usually, than in the morning, when Christy or someone else lays a meaty topic on the table. And here’s my problem again, living in Hawaii: When I get up, FDL is generally on its 3rd or 4th thread of the day, and its too late to go back and engage in any dialog on the early threads.
It would be easier to stay “on topic” if older threads were kept alive longer, so that one had some choice about where to dive in, and if the herd mentality of FDL could somehow be split up more often.
Bob in HI
OT, but so funny. Goodling had the bosoms draped at Justice. How twisted is this person?
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/003166.php
Thanks Jane for having this discussion.
One of the things you said in your post was “Unlike other sites, we don’t allow people to post “drive-bys,” we ask that they stay in the comments and engage our readership. We expect them to come prepared to talk about the subject/book at hand and to be able to answer questions about it”….
Well, I felt the manner in which Clinton posted was a drive-bye. She plopped a canned thread down at 1:39, didn’t comment until 2:02, and was gone by 2:12. I don’t feel like she made a meaningful effort to hear or answer some of the very good questions that were asked of her.
That’s why I personally felt she was triangulating. I’m sure she’s been informed by her handlers that this is a “women-centered” blog–which is so simplistic a description of FDL it’s laughable– so she came and posted about something safe, something Hil’ knew all us “women” would agree with. Please, that kind of manipulation makes me want to puke. I would have been much more impressed with her if she’d stayed around longer then 10 minutes. Can we make that a pre-requisite with politicians in the future? That they have to stay for at least 30 minutes to answer questions…
Thanks
Bob 108, I always thought it had something to do with overloading the comment capacity or something like that.
I was wondering if Ms. Hamsher might ever look into the Hillary stuff. Ok, fair enough. My take is that I give HRC a big fat F. You see, I do not group authors in the same category as HRC. Authors are here to talk about their book. It’s only fair that the talk be limited to the book.
HRC, however, is a viable PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE. She came before the people, but limited us as to what we could ask her. That’s cowardly…and that’s Hillary. Makes no difference to me if Ms. Hamsher told her that a topic on women’s pay, or bats in Arizona would be featured at the appointed time.
I expect someone who might be my President to have the GUTS and SPINE to tell a Jane Hamsher “ma’m, ok, be glad to appear. But as you know I’m running for President, and it’s only fair that I take questions from the people on whatever is on their mind. If it conflicts with your topic, then I’ll still appear, but please let me come back another time and answer general questions.” I’m quite sure Ms. Hamsher would’ve obliged.
But instead, Ole G&S (that’s gutless and spineless) wouldn’t face up to the people. I think she used Ms. Hamsher. And I would suggest that in the future, when dealing with a Presidential candidate, Ms. Hamsher push a bit harder to convince the candidate to answer ANY AND ALL questions from us Americans. If the candidate refuses, I won’t hold it against Ms. Hamsher if she still lets the candidate come on for limited topic chat; but I’ll hope that Ms. Hamsher subsequently reports to the readers that candidate “x” refused to appear and answer general questions.
Ghostman
Raw Story:
World Bank panel finds Wolfowitz guilty of conflict of interest
Bob in HI (108) — don’t let the herd move you, then. I often go back to older threads and continue posting, although sometimes it’s easier at a certain point to continue a conversation that might have narrowed down to one or two people via email instead of the thread.
Keep in mind how many people are reading the posts and threads well after they’ve opened and moved on; with vacation or a busy schedule, some folks can’t participate immediately and often do so late. Your late post might be one the first they see.
Sally @ 109
A “Monica” for all seasons. Clinton had summer, Bush has winter….a spring for the fall.
HotFlash @ 55
Once again, that wasn’t a rule we made up for Hillary Clinton, that’s the rule for all chats. If you had a question about equal pay, you should have asked it. If you had a question outside of that and you felt a burning need to ask Hillary Clinton, you can send her an email or go to any one of a number of public events that I’m sure she’ll have over the next year and a half. This is certainly not the only opportunity people will have to be exposed to her between now and November 2008.
I reject your Eurocentric heterosexist conceptualiization of essentialist, bounded “topics.”
Mutant Poodle
My profound apologies. I know better, but I was bad. It’s just that, as awful as it is to generalize, I sometimes do. And, please don’t get me wrong. I love testosterone, sometimes. And I think it’s better to have a mix. Too much of any one thing can be overwhelming. Balance is a good thing. But, don’t you think there is a Nice Civility here? And, maybe it has to do more with the Hearts and not the hormones. Perhaps.
Mutant Poodle- there was a conversation a long long time ago at FDL, back in the blogspot days, with the strongly emerging sentiment that we have the best/ nicest/ admirable xy commenters too. The ones that a sane but passionate xx would enjoy conversing with. Not to worry.
LS @ 111
Maybe active threads could be marked in some way to show that they are still going?
Bob Schacht @ 108
from almost the same time zone, I’ll add a hearty I’ll second that! Actually, the older threads DO stay alive longer than they used to, sometimes creating some of their most engaging discussions after most have moved on, but Bob’s observations at #108 are basically right on the money.
Valley Girl @ 119
Nicely and discretely put VG. :})
Ghostman @ 112
You remain conspicuously silent on the subject of Chris Dodd and John Kerry, Ghostman. Your critique only seems to apply to Hillary.
And no, we’re not going to change our rules. The notion that we have some moral obligation to give people the opportunity to lob hand grenades at Hillary Clinton is, I think, quite curious.
Glad to see everyone staying on-topic about staying on-topic. *g*
This is an important conversation to have, and one more illustration of the organic nature of this site and our community. Thanks be to the foundresses and their minions for the evolving standards and enforcement thereof.
National Journal’s cherrypicking of displeased commentary was dishonest journamalizm (what’s new?) and Althouse’s designation of FDL as hardcore was simply another feather in our shared cap. That no critics mentioned the effort for which FDL is most famous in the blogosphere — Libby trial live-blogging — says all you need to know about their bias. Reaching back to blackface-gate and NBK is ridiculous. One lasted 45 minutes and actually happened at HuffPo (for which we never see Arianna criticized, incidentally….) and NBK is ancient history.
Senator Clinton would be wise to return, and I betcha she will. If she’s really smart, she’ll tell her opponents to stay away! She took a few off-topic questions, and answered them graciously. There will be a time when she’ll return, on another topic, and we’ll have another chance to chat.
Finally, wrt Broderella’s chat: he took enough tough-sounding questions to appear fair, but believe me, there were lotsa tough questions he avoided. It’s still easy for a WaPoO chatter to create the appearance of chatting across a spectrum of criticism without taking the entire range of questions. Broder’s great at that.
HotFlash @ 104
I don’t know what you posted on that day. I wasn’t here. What I meant by my earlier comment to you is that If the forum on a given day has been expressed by FDL to be topic specific, well then, that’s not the place for you and everyone else to take advantage and ask about any and all of their pet topics.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 29
Just want to say thanks for all you (everyone who makes FDL run) do. I know how much work it is. I don’t see how anyone can fault an expectation of company manners, especially when you want to actually have a conversation. Thanks to the mods who make it look like we all possess them.
cleter @ 117
Did you forget the snark tags?
Ed*ard Teller @ 121
I tend to go back to older threads for some time after joining a newer. Some intereseting comments. Like the one on Saturday where we were wearing tin-foil concerning Monica G. Some nutter left a late post in a drive-by claiming we were all nuckin’ futz.
It would be interesting to have presidential candidates on without having them confined to a topic. I wonder who would agree to an electonic town hall?
This is not a criticism of HRC’s appearance.
noen at 120 — Every single thread on this blog stays active for 24 hours after it goes up. If it’s within the 24 hour window, it is active. And I can’t speak for everyone else, but I do try to go back when I can get time to do so and go through later comments — some days I have more time to do that than others. But I do also go back to old threads and pull out links and comments for newer posts, too, when I think they are not only relevent but useful in discussing a current issue. And I know that Jane does that as well. We’re always talking about how we get our best ideas from our commenters — you guys rock — so never think that we aren’t paying attention. It’s just that sometimes we’re juggling 80 things at once. (As an example, The Peanut just got diagnosed with strep and scarlet fever, so I’m typing this while watching cartoons with a 4-year-old on my lap. Multi-tasking is my life.)
dakine01 @ 127
Guys. Again. This is only for chats with guests, not general post threads.
I’ve never seen a candidate appear here with whom I agreed on everything. Some, like Sen. Clinton, I don’t have a very high regard for, but I’d even call Karl Rove “Sir” here if I knew it would get an honest answer from him…
Valley Girl @ 126
Did I? Oh, dammit.
Thank you Jane, Christy and other FDL blogchiefs for bringing guest bloggers. I agree Jane it was great that Senator Clinton agreed to blog here at FDL, and important that she brought up such a critical topic. You may have announced what the topic would be, but I certainly missed it. I did not stay on topic with Clinton and I apologized.
I can not get around Clinton’s vote for the war resolution, and I can not get around her often repeated excuse “if only I knew then what I know now”. I just do not buy it. There were just too many experts calling the intelligence into question(Scott Ritter, El Baradei, Cia Analyst) and others(zbigniew Bryzinski, Madeline Albright, General Zinni etc) who questioned the wisdom of invading a nation that had not attacked us. Until Hillary gives a more reasonable and logical reason for her vote, I will not be on her bus.
Comparing Kerry(who is not running) and Dodd’s (who does not stand a chance)visit to FDL and bloggers willingness to stay on topic is very different than Hillary’s visit. Just a year ago Hillary was talking pre-emptive strike on Iran tough talk and Kerry and Dodd were saying diplomacy with Iran. There is a difference between the visitors. Hillary is a serious contender and it is more than reasonable that people want a more substantive explanation to why she voted “yea’ on the war resolution in 2002.
I hope Hillary comes back and is willing to discuss her vote.
Jane, Christy and FDL Team I have been inviting lots of people to FDL sharing with them what is taking place. If you or Christy would be willing (this may have all ready been done in the past) to list the effectiveness of blogs, I would really appreciate it.
My explanation seems inadequate. I am sure the FDL team could put together a much clearer explanation and list of just what is taking place on this blog .
Thanks for all you folks do!
Surfmom @ 110
I tend to comment on several threads at once. being brand new here it may take me a few days to get into the swing of things but count me in on any thread that holds my interest. I implore everyone else to multi-thread as well. A lot of things need fixing.
Poor little Peanut!!! (and you too!)
cleter @ 128
Maybe one day we’ll get there, but it’s probably going to take some nurturing and a lot of work on the part of us, the candidates, their staffs and our readers. It’s a new process. Media are going to be hostile to it because it cuts them out of the equation. If we err on the side of caution it’s because we don’t want to blow the whole thing up before it has a chance to develop.
Ed*ard Teller @ 131
In other words, you’re never going to call Karl “Sir”.
Ed*ard Teller @ 131
I’m trying to imagine the horrific server meltdown there would be if Karl Rove ever showed up.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 129
And welcome to mommy reality! I’m guessing far more dififcult than my trying to type around my feline. :})
Christy Hardin Smith @ 129
I was just thinking out loud tring to come up with a way to encourage people to look at other articles than the top story.
Peanut huh? I had a peanut once, now she’s graduating from high school, ::sigh::
FWIW I thought it was no small coup that Hillary was here albeit rather briefly. Caught the post and comments yet rereading it carefully it seemed quite civil all things considered.
OT:
Suzanne – you have mail.
Ed*ard Teller @ 131
I’d insist on people following the same rules for George Bush or (*ack*) Michelle Malkin. Not that I’d ever invite them, or that they’d ever agree to be here.
I do not think this is an appropriate topic for this blog.
Eli @ 137
I’m thinkin’ it would be EXTREMELY difficult for me to be gracious to such a “person.”
TeddySanFran @ 144
No? Then search the past 24 hrs for one you like better.
Texas Betsy @ 145
He’s being sarcastic, old joke around here ; )
How about inviting Condi over and just keep the topic on the Niger Forgeries? :P
TeddySanFran @ 144
Mods — boot him.
Jane Hamsher @ 149
LOL
cleter @ 139
Maybe Howie’s working on him. He’s worked miracles before.
Jane Hamsher @ 148
This is OT. Mods, boot her.
Jane Hamsher @ 143
George Bush? Talking to just anybody?
Not in his lifetime.
Bob S and others-
The time window for closing threads has varied and changed over time. I really don’t know what it is right now. But it’s a practical issue of dealing with spam vs. valid comments.
This is a separate issue from that of “herd” mentality.
FDL threads used to be open forever. And, this was where most of the spam and nasty stuff accumulated, far swamping valid comments. And, someone had to go clean up these threads. And, that would mostly be the mods. Who do this free, and have day jobs. And need to sleep.
Whatever the thread open time is now, it is undoubtedly the current “best call” as to how to maximize valid comments, w/o spam and troll comments.
Petrocelli @ 40
One possibly solution with Off-Topic remarks is to open a parallel topic and place them on that…of course, THAT would not be useful if the post was directed at the visitor as a question. But if it was a valid, though off topic, comment…that might be a solution.
Maybe a thread with “questions you’d like to have asked Hillary” would be reasobnable? :-)
{{{ peanut }}}
“You remain conspicuously silent on the subject of Chris Dodd and John Kerry, Ghostman. Your critique only seems to apply to Hillary.”
1. Dodd: I missed whatever he did here. If he did the same as HRC, he deserves the same label. I so label.
2. Kerry: he’s not a presidential candidate. The key for me is status as a viable presidential candidate.
3. I have no interest in seeing folks lob grenades at HRC should she appear. Decorum is best when dealing directly with any presidential candidate.
Ghostman
Perhaps we could get darkblack to put up decorations when BIG candidates visit the lake. *s*
Nate @ 26
I would be VERY interested in such a chat.
cinnamonape @ 155
I came here yesterday because C&L said Mike Farrel would be here. I did not see him being overwhelmed or “mobbed.” Was that unusual? Was Hillary fielding too many questions?
cinnamonape @ 154
That’s why so many of us were on the previous thread. (I’d have had a hard time not screaming at her.)
Texas Betsy @ 145
TB- TSF was delving back into “great phrases from the past” at FDL and making a joke.
That you’re exploring this and opening it up to discussion, Jane, is a perfect example of how you & Christy & team have created a very special place. Many thanks.
Generally, I agree with the apparent majority that staying OT for special occasions is good. I’d go so far as to support additional moderation to minimize the flurry of greetings & questions. I’m unlikely to criticize a guest for not answering a particular question because I imagine them kinda overwhelmed.
Going a little further, I support the narrow topic idea, as long as the topics are of a broad enough interest. HRC’s pay equality and Kerry’s environmental themes qualify.
Sometime ago in some forum I can’t recall, I heard it suggested that our marathon ‘08 Prez race would be best served, not by multiple debates of the typical all-topic type, but by an agreed-upon series of debates, each of which would focus on a different topic, thereby allowing the discussion to go into greater depth. The candidates would be forced beyond their talking points on 20 subjects to thorough discussion on 1.
I propose we attempt something similar here. Let the candidates do their time on a narrow subject once, then encourage them to do a series over the course of the campaign. (I know, I know — hard enough to get them here once!)
Thanks for — yet another — thought-provoking discussion.
Great point outs. I would like to add that since my grandson is climbing on everything these days I’m not able to engage in the comments during the week like I used to, but it is difficult to sit back and have to “observe” the constant inane Hillary bashing that seems to have crept into almost every thread lately that I was praying she didn’t take a peek or be informed of them if we ever want her to come back. We more than get it that some people don’t like her, stating it distainfully 2 dozen times on most threads everyday is an abuse of your bandwidth and our intelligence.
I enjoy the indepth discussions on real issues and pay particular attention on women’s issues. As long as she is a candidate I want to hear what she has to say responding to thoughtful informed questions for however long we are fortunate enough to get her and any others as their schedules will be getting fuller as each week goes by.
P J Evans @ 161
Screaming at guests is not polite. I admire your dicretion. I might have had a hard time being here for that discussion myself.
I also figured that the spontaneity of Mrs. Clinton’s arrival had to do with coordinating within a Senator&PrezCandi’s crazy schedule and avoiding the nutters. It would be nice, in future, if we had a little advance notice. But I’m afraid who that might bring in, making the chat either crazy for the mods or crazy for the candidate.
So that’s a tough one, the scheduling/spontaneity issue. I was delighted to arrive at my client’s desk back from lunch to see Senator Clinton’s picture — and then byline!! — on the frontpage.
Nola Sue @ 163
Not sure i agree with the idea of limiting the topics. I would disallow rudeness, but not something challenging or uncomfortable.
It hardly diminishes my high regard for this blog and its founders if they request a switch to “good behavior” mode when prominent, if sometimes controversial, guests drop in. Like several other regular denizens, I respected the ground rules by confining my views about Clinton to a thread “downstairs” from the Senator’s chat.
My view: Many tens of thousands of dead Iraqi women are in no position to even dream of equal pay for equal work, and Clinton’s role as an unrepentant (even now!) accessory to their slaughter pretty well trumps the occasional good things she does, most of which constitute low-hanging fruit, courage-wise.
This blog offers me quite enough space to express such views in threads where it breaks no rules.
#108 Bob Schacht
#121 Ed Teller..I agree! Often I feel folks are just getting into the “meat/tofu” of an issue, and a new topic is posted and the “herd” moves on. I understand what Christy is saying that we can go back or stay on that topic, but most have moved on.
#110 Surfman Hillary played it “safe” I agree!
#112 Ghostman Hillary “cowardly” I agree!
Thank you FDL team, I am spreading the word!
Bob Shacht @ 2:50
A lot of us are at a time zone disadvantage, so don’t hesitate to comment once people have moved on to a new thread. I bet a huge chunk of the readership here goes back to see how earlier conversations have developed and do see those later comments. :)
This leads me to a suggestion: What about closing comments on “guest chat” threads once the guest has left? It just seems rude to me that people continue to comment (sometimes saying things that they probably wouldn’t have said if the guest were still there) and the conversation often goes off-topic at that point. I’ve noticed that on some Blue America chats.
Notice how when KO savages the prez, he always includes “Sir” along the way.
As for Senator Clinton, the election is not tomorrow so there’s plenty of time for Q&A from all sides.
Kristof in today’s Times gives his take on the Clinton dynasty (subscription required I learned here today). The comments are tres interesting.
http://select.nytimes.com/2007…..of.html?hp
You guys (gals??) really are great!!!!
D. Moore @ 118
I think it’s a self-selected group that has (with a few exceptions) similar views with regard to respecting the community.
A friend of mine (estrogen-based) is a black belt in Kung Fu; I study a different art. We were remarking once that almost all of the people who advance a long ways in traditional martial arts are really very nice and respectful. Her take was that most folks who are assholes don’t have the patience to put up with the process, long and painful, of becoming an advanced martial artist. I think, here, folks who are jerks simply won’t fit in – no one will pile on to their jerkiness, and instead they’ll get reproved. Hence the self-selection.
And I’m not really offended, but I think (and I have a long boring story that solidified this for me) that if we don’t consider people individually as opposed to whatever group we can categorize them as part of, we lose out on really knowing them. Which is, I think, what you were alluding to when you said your were “bad”.
I’d just say, go easy on yourself.
Jane Hamsher @ 143
I would call Karl “god” if I knew he would answer honestly.
Pfifferling @ 170
I have two responses for you. First, i can see that most questions i would ask, were i absent, would probably be brought up by others who post here. Second, why end discourse?
OT from the LA Times:
Gates not playing by Bush Rules?
According to the sitemeter, 59,963 visited this site today!
I have two related questions:
(1) Is the rush to Zed in the comments considered “on topic”?
(2)Is the enthusiastic namedrop, often in caps or with exclamation points, such as “JANE!!!” in the case of this post, “on topic”? Such things are cutesy FDL culture, but debatable — although if the namedrop is for the author of the lead article, I guess it might be considered an “Amen” post, and therefore “on topic.”
Even though its not strictly on topic, special kudos to the moderators, for all the work they do keeping things on track around here!
Now I’ll go read the comments.
Curmudgeonly yours,
Bob in HI
LS @ 177
Does that count me 50 times or once?
Shez @ 164, thank you for that.
Senator Clinton’s appearance at FDL caught me by surprise, but the attack points used by her ideological critics to denigrate said appearance did not.
On topic? – In that particular instance, ‘equal pay for women’ was fairly inclusive of a lot of issues…historical, efforts made by Sen. Clinton and others to rectify imbalance, proposals for change, etc. – Certainly fodder for a wide ranging discussion.
IMO, Topic drift doesn’t really occur here at FDL, unless mutually agreed upon…And I rarely if ever see it occur in guest or book club threads, although it may well happen.
Personally, I don’t think it should be countenanced if it occurs within those type of threads.
Guests are here with their agenda for readers to dissect, and authors are here to discuss their work.
OT from ThinkProgress
But not his daddy and the bargoyle.
LS @ 177
What? Are you surprised? :)
Bob Schacht @ 178
Well, probably not. But, to quote Chesterton (I think), Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly.
Kitt @ 124
You say you weren’t there and don’t know what I posted, so why are you assuming that I was ‘taking advantage’ and ‘asking about my pet topics’? It’s not as if I was talking about mulch or muffin recipes. This is one of the things I said on that thread and I think it is true.
I think if I was a politician, blogs would be the way to go. It doesn’t cost a thing besides an internet connection. Second of all, there are no worries of lining up security details or making pans to show up. They can just appear, as we do. We, the people.
Your rules are your rules. Seems people should obey them.
However, by having those rules, I think you are risking the reputation of the blog becoming pretty much the same as the MSM pundits.
You are allowing candidates for national office to use your venue to only discuss the “easy” topics and ignore the hard questions (like the war).
This seems to reflect the same lack of courage and desire to be “part of the inner circle” that so completely destroyed political journalism in the MSM.
Dangerous ground.
“…the rush to Zed…”
No. that is a neocon concept! LOL :P)Bob Schacht @ 178
You have a problem with greeting your friends?
Sorry, did not mean to make that sound as awful as it looked. :)
TeddySanFran @ 143
Dear Teddy, thanks and SYF pie hole. (/snark)
Love, HotFlash.
darkblack @ 181
You got that one exactly right. The notoriously racist blog, firedoglake got my attention, but not my surprise.
Ed*ard Teller @ 151
ET – a digression from Marcy in which you might be interested:
Ben Stevens Not Named in VECO Charging Document
Knowing that Mike Farrell was a animal rights activist, I asked him about the cat & dog food problem but he never responded. Then I felt stupid.
xoites defends Constitution @ 189
Actually it was PERFECT!
xoites defends Constitution @3:22 I don’t want to end discourse! I just think that the conversation veers off once the guest has left and that those comments, then, should perhaps be in the previous or next thread.
Shez @ 164
Hillary is an effing historical phenomenon.
Eleanor Roosevelt
Abigail Adams
Amelia Earhart
When I hit “home” and she was coming up, I thought I’d zigged into some sort of archive. But no, this is real, she’s coming on.
I had nothing to say. I make very little money working in special ed. It’s mostly women and it’s only getting worse. What’s she going to say?
But the phenomenon stopped by for a chat, and I was accidentally here. I’d honestly like to know you. Maybe I’d vote for you. Try coming back.
I think on topic and off topic are rather like being and nothingness but I am not sure which is which.
Ed*ard Teller @ 190
Racist? Somebody called us racist? Gosh, what races are we for? Which against?
Hugh @ 196
You new around here?
ccmask @ 185
I think it depends on how confident you are in your ability to think on your feet.
Back before Tony Blair became a Bush-enabling tool, I remember seeing him on C-SPAN during “Question Time”, where not only was he smoothly and confidently fielding hostile questions from opposition members of Parliament, but he was actually *enjoying* it.
Someone with that kind of verbal skill would be a natural for this kind of blog discussion. *Bill* Clinton would have been amazing here.
But someone like Dubya, who is carefully shielded from any members of the public who might ask tough questions, would be a disaster unless the environment was tightly controlled.
Then again, we’d really have no way of knowing whether he was really typing in his own responses, although if the spelling and grammar were impeccable I’d have my suspicions…
Bob Schacht @ 108
I agree with many of your points, and before I offer some suggestions I would like to first touch on the opening comments by our tutor and leader Jane.
Although I have no basic objection to the “rule” that when having chats with authors, politicians and other public figures we should be respectful and stay on topic. I submit that it is more important that we treat them as we treat the outstanding contributors to the FDL site. By way of example, I believe we should treat the public figure the same way that we treat Jane. ( OT? – kind of like an “equal pay” sort of thing ) It is, in my opinion, not appropriate to essentially modify our operating procedure and treat the “public figure” as a lecturer for whom we may ask some follow-up questions or questions for clarification of a point made my the lecturer.
Therefore, I submit that if a member of the FDL community knows that many of the FDL community would like to be apprised of an important issue that is off topic that they note OT and submit a one-liner or very limited comment. For example, members have frequently pointed out that a hot topic is curently live and cite a web site. I see no reason whatsoever that we should not accept this on a “public figure” chat thread when we clearly welcome such OT notes on all other threads.
It would be inappropriate and a violation of the “one rule” to submit an OT EPU comment that offers an important contribution during a “public figure” chat. On the other hand, I agree with Bob that there should a method of sometimes keeping alive a thread that is in the EPU. Many of the FDL community can not stay on the blog full time and always up to hte latest thread. I suspect that many members log on and find that they are a half dozen or so threads behind the current thread. These late comers may very well have a different and important contribution to make and it is a loss if we can not receive that input.
I have to go right now, but I do have other comments/suggestions along the lines opened up by Bob.
ET -
Maybe already mentioned, I zoomed from your 83 to get here….
emptywheel has a fresh post on the Alaska indictment situation…
Valley Girl @ 199
What is new and what is old is often in the eye of the beholder, which is often why the beholder does not see well, grasshopper.
Well, given that it’s usually several minutes before the guest shows up, and there’s a tradition to be upheld, I’d allow it. But it isn’t my blog.
ccmask @ 193
My question about a presidential endorsement was not answered, so I asked Mike again, without my earlier surrounding [brilliant] commentary, and I got an answer. I would not have asked it a third time, however.
Sometimes, guests appear to be ignoring (avoiding?) certain questions, when they’ve just overlooked them. The threads do move fast, and newcomers can lost their place if they are trying to answer each question in order. Other times, the question’s been repeated, by others as well, and it becomes pretty clear the guest is avoiding answering. This has happened on BAmerica threads, iirc, wrt the Palestine/Israel questions.
jello5929 @ 187
If you invite someone into your town, your neighborhood, your home would you want those around you, your family, your friends, your nieghbors and aquaintences to treat them with respect or would you prefer to throw tomatoes?
Further, my friend, if tommorow you ended up face to face (unexpectedly) with George Bush, would you insult him?
You know when mother Theresa visited Ronald Reagan she was invited to have dinner at the White House. She declined very politely. but she also added, “I never eat with people who have never been hungry.”
HotFlash @ 185
This is what you said:
I actually do have to say I think that’s pretty insulting to the people who did show up here and ask questions. Are you saying their questions were not sincere? Because you seem to be implying that they are a bunch of sheep.
FOR the human race.
AGAINST the Martian race.
Yes?
Elliott @ 21
I mostly agree with the above. But it also ticks me off a bit that Hillary wants to control the conversation. The “on topic” restriction reminds me of a “survey” I got from her office more than a year ago, asking for my help in prioritizing the issues facing the nation. Much to my surprise, the occupation of Iraq was nowhere on the list! My respect for her took a nosedive at that time.
What would we think if the Preznit held a public press conference, announcing in advance the topics he would discuss, and disallowing all other questions?
Bob in HI
I wish Senator Durbin was running for President. He voted “nay” on the war resolution based on what he was hearing in Senate Intelligence committee meetings.(was unable to repeat this info until it was declassified)
I think Senator Durbin would be a great guest here at FDL. I would like to be able just what was he hearing on the Intelligence committee that convince him to vote no on the 2002 war resolution
I like “almost” everything Senator Durbin says and how he votes.
GORE AND DURBIN…now there’s a pair!
jello5929 at 186 — That presupposes that you can learn absolutely nothing by what the candidate chooses not to answer — which is to say your premise is realy flawed. If there are a number of tough questions asked of a candidate, and they skip them all? Well, that tells me a whole helluva lot, doesn’t it you? We generally try to provide some lead time for folks to come up with questions on the topic — it just happened to be one of those weird confluence of events things that we had asked the campaign for Sen. Clinton to give us time, they didn’t think they’d have it and then a space in the schedule opened up and she was willing and able to come here to put it to use. And having some chat availability, we thought, with a Presidential candidate was a good thing — precisely because how they do or don’t interact with readers is as telling as the topic they choose to address (or not) and the discussion that they do or do not have while they are here. But maybe that’s just me — I enjoy learning as much from what is ommitted as what is included. (And, FWIW, I’m still hoping to get an answer to my childcare issues question…but nothing thus far.)
HotFlash @ 185
Off topic is off topic. Being given permisson to go off topic seems to be the crux of your discussion. Or if not given permisson, than to be able to do so anyway without having anyone harp on you about it.
Comes back to my original statement to you. Have common courtesy. Seems obvious to me that that would include respecting the wishes and the stated rules of the day by the people who are providing a forum for you to take part in. We all have to (and should want to) respect their wishes. Why not you? I don’t get it.
Ed*ard Teller @ 191
Of course, it’s well known that Jane keeps black dogs penned up within an oppressively large yard, and Christy may have once considered using a confederate flag to diaper the Peanut when the Pampers weren’t handy.
So, a reputation well deserved. Shame on us.
;>)
Kathleen @ 209
“Gorebin”.
ccmask @ 193
I saw your question and it dumbfounded me because at this point the information about where all these pet food companies are getting their pet food seems very complicated. It is something not many of us are up on yet.
I had the feeling Mike Farrell was thinking some of the same things i was, “What the hell was it that i just heard last week about all the global corporate crap that created this disaster?”
LS @ 115
LOL! Reminds me of the wacko fundy Home School convention in Sacramento that complained about the nudev statue of Poseidon outside the Sacramento Convention Center and the idiot manager went and covered it up!
http://www.thefileroom.org/doc…..fm/id/1090
I guess they didn’t notice the cherubs on the building round rthe corner…or maybe images of nude children are okay to them?
Good grief, what’s not to understand that Senator Clinton was a guest here to discuss equal pay for women. That’s a topic. One topic. A very important topic to many women (and men, perhaps). As I remember, she had 30 minutes to answer questions which she graciously did. But, it’s Senator Clinton, so we should be allowed to rough her up as we please. Same old story, same old players.
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 192
That would be redundant. Here’s a comment at TPMMuckraker on the subject:
“It’s not clear if Alaska’s Senate President Ben Stevens, son of U.S. Senator Ted Stevens (R-AK), whose office was raided by the FBI in August, is one of them.”
The facts for “State Senator B” in the plea agreement for Allen fit only Ben Stevens and no one else (see http://www.adn.com/static/incl….._facts.pdf ).
Stevens had a consulting company and was paid by VECO. He disclosed the “client” in his public disclosure filings but refused to say what services were performed. One of the reasons he did not run for re-election was the public furor raised by his political opponents over his “consulting”.
Tha Allen plea cop this morning was a very big surprise. Again, the way this is dripping out means only one thing:
Alice Fisher wants Alberto Gonzales’ job. by doing it this way, she’s keeping Ted Stevens’ and Lisa Murkowski’s votes on her side.
Bob Schacht @ 209
One more time. Hillary was not trying to “control the conversation,” that’s OUR rule. Always has been.
dakine01 @ 182
But not his daddy and the bargoyle.
Complete list here.
Bob in HI — you do know that the president’s press conferences are completely and utterly staged in just the way you describe, right?
Thanks Tsf & Eli.
Um, is Jane breaking her own margins?
Eli @ 223
Ban her
;>)
Eli @ 214
Gor y Dur
This is Jane’s house. when you go into someone else’s house, you respect their rules. This is a universal rule of civilized behavior.
OT – Leahy writes to Schlozman
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/003167.php
Is there a way to delay the questions that are off topic and post them later, so that the guest and the FDlers can go through them and comment after the guest has gone off blog.
The guest(Clinton, Kerry etc) can “hopefully” go back and read the comments that are “off topic” but possibly still relevant.
They could consider coming back to discuss what seems to be the most critical to folks at FDL.
corry342 @ 30
I agree! I know that “drivebys” are discouraged, but sometimes that’s all that I have the time to do. How many comments in addition to the main page post should one read before being allowed to comment? I’m on my lunch hour now, and don’t have time to read 200 comments before posting– and if I did, my post would wind up in EPU-ville, which is were most of them wind up, anyway.
As the FDL community gets larger (as it did during the Libby trial), we have to adapt to new realities.
Aloha,
Bob in HI
Of course people should treat the candidates respectfully. I never said otherwise.
However, restricting questions allows a candidate for national office to use that venue to get out their message without the need to address the broader issues of the campaign.
And frankly, that’s how the candidates like it. So the more you restrict the questions and the more you avoid pressing the uncomfortable areas, the more candidates will be willing to frequent your venue. So that encourages the venue to restrict questioning so they can become a more frequented venue.
Until eventually everyone is always willing to go on “meet the press.” It’s a dangerous temptation.
xoites defends Constitution @ 205
xoites! You can go a long way from obsequious toward tomato-throwing before you leave the realm of politeness. The lady in question is a presidential candidate and it is not beyond reason that we would want to politely ask her about her plan for Iraq. Or to explain her plan to protect women from government.
The question was what is too off-topic to ask a presidential candidate who has come to the lake talk about equal pay for women. What is this about insulting George Bush, and how did Mother Theresa get dragged into this?
TeddySanFran @ 166
xoites defends Constitution @ 165
Maybe a request by the moderator that the candidate examine the Off Topic comments posted on the previous post (which she need not respond to, but should be aware of) with an assurance that they consider returning and discuss the issues raised in those comments or questions…would be a good compromise. That way the candidate gets exposed too the concerns of the community of FDL without the focus of the topic being dissipated.
While I’d LIKE to have the answers to a lot of queries on a Candidates positions on other topics, I’d be SATISFIED with the fact that they are at least aware of the concerns of the public.
I am feeling guilty about the zed thing. I did a gloating zed when Taylor Marsh was here I apologized in the next thread because I knew it was rude. Now I read a few lines before I zed to make sure that it is not inappropriate. Love the ZeD☼
lolo
ps, I do not cheat. : )
Bob Schacht @ 228
I typically won’t even comment on a thread that’s more than 20 or 30 comments old, unless I have something I just *have* to say on that topic. But that’s just my particular kink, not a recommendation.
I think FDL provides a valuable service to its reaers by inviting prominent political figures to appear here and answer questions. Jane and Siun et al deserve a lot of credit for enticing the politicians out of their natural timidity shells (they don’t want to be ambushed because that will be used against them — it’s a risk if they don’t know us). By being respectful, we can reduce that perception.
That said, there is a conflict in goals between FDL and the political candidates. FDL’s interest is in having wide open discussions of all relevant issues. Our preference should be no restrictions on “topic” over the long run — that might allow a session on “women’s right” another on the war, another on health care, etc. or one session on everything.
But if we had only one shot, there’s a dilemma. Should FDL accept the candidate’s preferred limit, or just say no? There is no perfect answer. We might accept limits the first time in the hope that will open things up in later sessions — but there are no guarantees the candidate will come back.
Hillary is a special problem, mostly of her own making, because she has a reputation for being overly cautious, to the extent of having a term — triangulation — named for her and her husband. Given that reputation, I was upset about the limit on topics, especially since she knew that two of the most important questions people have about her relate to her war positions and to the image of her being too cautious/scripted. By choosing to appear on FDL only on condition that the conversation be limited, she exacerbated her image on those point. If she comes back to answer on other issues, she solves that problem; if she doesn’t, she hurts herself, at least with me.
We should invite all the candidates to join us, and encourage them to deal with all relevant issues over time. If a candidate persists in trying to limit the dicussions to “safe” issues, I think we should report that and deny them the forum.
Elliott @ 21
Count me as in agreement, also. She’s not my first choice as a candidate because of her DLC connection, but I appreciate her acknowledgement of this community in her “conversation” and hope it will continue.
Texas Betsy @ 207
All the Martians who have posted or commented here have been very nice, though.
If I understood the ref. correctly, drive-bys was referring to POSTERS, not commenters.
edit- except for drive-by one off trolz.
Eli @ 234
I am a bit the opposite. I’d like to see where things are going before I throw my 2 cents in. Often don’t even click one the NEW THREAD link until 10 or 20 minutes have passed.
I didn’t participate in the Clinton thread. I am not a Hillary fan, but I am curious how her appearance was arranged mostly because she was supposed to be out there addressing the blogosphere early on but then never really did.
Kathleen at 227 — Not really, unless we add about 30 more unpaid volunteer moderators to do nothing but cut and paste.
I love the comments. I find the hottest links to the latest and breaking news.
RonD @ 226
“When you go into someone else’s house, you respect their rules”. I agree up to a certain point.
We are not in Jane’s house eating dinner! Jane and Christy and the team have invited us here to debate, discuss and share not to kiss their asses. I hope!
If we just kiss ass, and are unwilling to respectfully challenge our own thinking what good are we?
Wait a minute… FDL has a “largely female readership?” Since I enjoy the site so much, I am not sure how I feel about that revelation. I am left-handed, well actually I write and eat left handed and play sports with my right. Maybe I am too much in touch with my feminine side? Wow, there goes the rest of the day…
Kathleen @ 228
This, I think, we would call the John Dean Model. It’s a tremendous amount of work for a two-hour appearance, but since it’s happened once, I bet our hosts relay it to guests as as option. Or perhaps they could do so.
RonD @ 226
Here Here!
Mark- continue reading. good xys are always cherished here.
Bob Schacht @ 229
Baloney.
Any single topic can be loaded with controversy. Good questioners can draw out the candidate’s views on that topic. You can only cover so much in a couple of hours or so. So why not go deep into one subject? That gives us all time for follow up questions. No candidate has any guarantee of getting off easy just because the forum is restricted to one topic on any given day. In fact, quite the opposite. The candidate is going to look silly if he or she tries to change the subject if and when the questions become tough to handle.
Back in the day when FDL was still on blogspot and using haloscan for comments it was nothing for us to keep 10 comment windows open and actively going, well into the next day on certain topics of interest or deep research. We kept it up at first with the switch to this site and new blogging module with full windows open.
Without going back to that thread I recall Jane informing us clearly she got Hillary at the last minute and for only 30 minutes at that if she could get here. What part are people missing or not reading the threads that Jane has zeroed in on with a vengence again on abortion and women’s issues? Equal pay, equal rights, equal voices ARE my number one issue being a woman, and precisely why I stayed at FDL for my main blog interaction.
Kathleen #243, No one is suggesting that people refrain from discussion and debate; simply that guests be treated respectfully and questions be on-topic. I am certainly not suggesting that anyone show up and just kiss ass, as any one of the regulars here who have taken issue with me in the pastcan attest. Structuring a debate is not eliminating debate.
I like how Joe Wilson just shows up when he feels like it. I often wonder why they all don’t do it. I mean, I can see how being a member of the GOP can’t truthfully answer the questions that we have, but if we know they read here, why don’t they pop in more often?
HotFlash @ 231
xoites defends Constitution @ 205
jello5929 @ 187
Your rules are your rules. Seems people should obey them.
However, by having those rules, I think you are risking the reputation of the blog becoming pretty much the same as the MSM pundits.
You are allowing candidates for national office to use your venue to only discuss the “easy” topics and ignore the hard questions (like the war).
This seems to reflect the same lack of courage and desire to be “part of the inner circle” that so completely destroyed political journalism in the MSM.
Dangerous ground.
If you invite someone into your town, your neighborhood, your home would you want those around you, your family, your friends, your nieghbors and aquaintences to treat them with respect or would you prefer to throw tomatoes?
Further, my friend, if tommorow you ended up face to face (unexpectedly) with George Bush, would you insult him?
You know when mother Theresa visited Ronald Reagan she was invited to have dinner at the White House. She declined very politely. but she also added, “I never eat with people who have never been hungry.”
xoites! You can go a long way from obsequious toward tomato-throwing before you leave the realm of politeness. The lady in question is a presidential candidate and it is not beyond reason that we would want to politely ask her about her plan for Iraq. Or to explain her plan to protect women from government.
The question was what is too off-topic to ask a presidential candidate who has come to the lake talk about equal pay for women. What is this about insulting George Bush, and how did Mother Theresa get dragged into this?
I do not disagree with your point at all. i was not here for the vist Hillary bestowed upon the blogoshere (and i am willing to bet she would be a lot less happy if i had been.) I was speaking in generalities.
HotFlash @ 237
They’re so clean and well spoken
;>)
darkblack @ 253
Some were even “articulate”.
BTW, Kathleen, I love your suggestion at #228.
Kevster @ 52
Yes– let me take time again for kudos to the moderating team! I am owner of several lists, and assistant manager of some big lists (but not as big as FDL!), and I know well what can go on behind the scenes. I was also on a large, unmoderated list that became absolutely cacaphonous to the point where people were leaving until some of us got together and transitioned the list to another host with moderators. It made a huge difference. So I know somewhat about what gets left on the cutting room floor, and sing praises to the moderators for all the work that they do! Thank you, thank you, thank you!
Bob in HI
Texas Betsy @ 253
I think you mean “marticulate”.
Scarecrow’s comment brings me to the central question: on-topic is an FDL rule, but was the topic itself HRC’s? Because it’s a pretty easy topic — can you imagine someone here being in favor of the current gender pay inequity?? Narrowing the topic to a topic without much controversy would be a trend I’d try to avoid, I guess.
Valley Girl @ 247
And I can attest to the fact that *xyz’s are welcomed here as well…
LS @ 115
With what? A teddy or a bra? Enquiring minds want to know.
Okay, wait a minute. Someone needs to explain this one to me: how exactly is asking people to be polite to guests and not be rude “kissing ass”? I thought that was a simple question of manners and having a conversation where there is give and take as opposed to name-calling and bomb-throwing and nothing of substance ever being touched in the melee.
Anyone care to elaborate on that one, because that particular line of thought mystifies me. I try to be mannerly pretty much all the time here and I think my thoughts on the things that piss me off are pretty much abundantly clear. How does being polite negate that in any way?
*xyz @ 258
Yes. I almost went back and edited my comment to make it more general. I was not meaning to exclude anyone, but Mark seemed in particular distress about his xy thing. ;)
Tinfoil hat time.
Do you suppose this article A Trail of Poisoned Medicine has anything to do with the vote in the Senate on importing drugs?
The fact that Hillary Clinton showed up at FDL, the only time to my knowledge that she has ever posted on any blog, is IMHO a testament to the fact that this blog is doing something right. That was quite a coup.
If it had to be hastily arranged or wasn’t perfectly arranged, so be it.
Personally, I don’t care how you do it, how you filter, how you monitor, how you arrive at the point of allowing civil, and yes sometimes controversial conversation. It happens. That is good. I also think it is good to enforce on-topic rules in posts by guests such as Hillary, or book authors.
Now to my own OT conversation. There are those of us who contrary to CW do not have access to high speed internet connections. I can’t get DSL, cable, or wireless internet in my location. Don’t even get me started talking about crappy phone lines! Communicating with FDL and the internet in general is a painfully slow process to say the least. Believe me if this site wasn’t so good, I wouldn’t bother.
Though I have long conceded that the rest of the world should not have to suffer because of my affliction, I would really appreciate anything that you could do to speed up the loading of graphics, and slow loading ads specifically, which tend to kick people like me out of FDL into “la la land” right after I have waited forever for it to load.
I never post at trial blogging, or any event such as the Hillary posting. My reaction time is just too slow. I would, however like some understanding, if accused of drive by posting.
By the way, a thank you to all who contribute to making this site one of the best on the internet.
Sixty Something
Haven’t read all the posts but it reminds me of a remark I heard an elementary school principal utter. As he was trying to get a large group of parents to stay behind the line painted on the gym floor, to no avail, he muttered under his breath “can never get adults to listen”
Christy Hardin Smith @ 241
That’s how much I know about this tech world. Not much.
Christy I am telling many people to come to this blog. Can you direct me to a clear and concise explanation of the effect and power of blogs.
I am sharing with folks that it is an incredible place to discuss issues, link to evidence to back up your arguments, find out about relevant issues, docu drops (at Muckraker), encouraging citizens to contact their reps etc. I know that one of the FDL team members either have or could be far more clear about what is taking place here at FDL and other blogs.
I met Hillary on the ‘92 campaign. I liked her. Now I like her as much as I like Lieberman.
Marcy’s fixed her post, but she disagrees with me about Alice Fisher’s scheme.
Teddy, I believe that it was Sen. Clinton’s topic, but Jane coordinated the chat on the fly, so perhaps she can speak more directly to that point than I can. As far as I know, we didn’t pick the topic, though — it pertained to legislation on which Sen. Clinton was working, as I recall, and it was something that hadn’t passed in the last legislative session.
Eli @ 257
I can’t understand how anyone can defend Martians. It’s the Red Planet you know. I’m not sure if that means conservative or communist but it can’t be good.
solai @ 265
I have a whole group of 2-4 yr olds trained to walk very quietly past a certain door. Their parents, on the other hand, do not set a good example.
Eli @ 257
And when the molecular transporter fails, they’re ‘particulate’.
;>)
Christy Hardin Smith @ 269
It was also the day on the calendar that marked salary inequities, IIRC.
Oh, and FWIW, the day that she posted was Equal Pay Day — which was, I assumed, the reason that she selected that particular topic and a discussion of that particular legislation on that particular day.
LOL TexasBetsy — Good minds think alike. *g*
Christy Hardin Smith @ 275
Yes but only one of us remembered the name of the day!
Christy Hardin Smith @ 261
Christy, I think it is all about respect. It’s not ass kissing.
Surfmom @110,
Gotta say I agree with you. By the time I thought of something to ask, she was gone. And it rankled me that she didn’t respond to Cassie.
This conversation reminds me of one time when John conyers held an open forum. There was an important topic of the day. Conyers and other panel members dealt with it on many levels. No one was shy. They were gangbusters about it.
The there was time alloted for Q&A. Ground rules were set. Those ground rules were: stay on topic, and don’t make a damned speech and hog the microphone. Wasn’t long before some jerk thought it was all about him. That ruined it for everyone else.
There has to be some ground rules, folks. That’s life.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 261
Being polite negates nothing. Being impolite degrades one’s self.
Sixty Something @ 263
I deleted most of your comment, which was so great, just to focus on one thing- the drive-by issue only refers to POSTERS who write front page POSTS, if I understand correctly what Jane was saying, and I think I do.
Many commenters here (those who reply in the comments) are also on dail-up, and can’t always follow up pronto. There has never been an issue with that, irrc.
dipper @ 278
What did Cassie ask? Something that any adult could have explained? Or something specific to Hillary?
I understand why some would not want the questions restricted to a certain topic that the politician has chosen. When John Hall was here I don’t remember a topic. We were able to ask anything we wanted.
Texas Betsy @ 282
I think she told her she was going to be president in 2032 it was so cute. She mentioned her blog too I think. Nothing inappropriate TB we were all very proud of her.
darkblack @ 272
And if the molecular transporter works only so so, then they’re “disarticulated”.
xoites defends Constitution @ 188
Apparently only during chats. :-)
Bob in HI
Christy Hardin Smith @ 261 –
christy – thanks again for encouraging me to ask my somewhat critical question of tom matzzie when he came to visit. i really appreciated that.
it’s sometimes difficult to know how to balance the desire to address a personal hot issue right now and the desire to think long term so as to foster an environment that encourages visitors to come here and interact in such a public forum.
dipper @ 278
That comment is totally unfair. Go ahead and try to answer every person on this thread in real time with the scroll bar jumping almost to the top of the page on every refresh. Hillary answered very intelligently to the questions that she managed to catch that she could get to. None of us are so special that only our questions are singled out and have to be answered.
Texas Betsy @ 282
I don’t even remember if she asked a question, but she greeted Hillary, told her age and said she hoped to be President herself someday. It was delicious, and I thought surely Hillary would score some major points by responding, but she was pure business and shot through the place like an arrow.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 269
Thank you, Christy. Do you see where I’m going with this, though? If HRC got to pick her (non-controversial) topic others will want to also. If Richardson wants to talk only about his work in Darfur, that won’t generate much heat here. If Biden wants to talk only about…. whatever it is Biden wants to talk about, we will be off-topic if we ask him about MBNA.
If the candidate gets to pick the topic, and the blog enforces the on-topic nature of the chat, then there is a danger that candidates will come on only if they can choose a topic they know we’re not likely to challenge them over.
Candidate Clinton was wise to answer some off-topic questions, and I hope future guests’ appearances are a little less topic-oriented. “On-topic” could just as well mean “only questions for the candidate” as it could mean “only questions about X for the candidate.” I’m hoping for more of the former.
Sixty Something @ 264
What this country needs is a Presidential candidate who will promise to get us out of Iraq, provide us with Universal Health Care and High Speed Internet Service.
And I am not kidding.
The more I think about it, the more I don’t like the idea of restrictions. If the MSM were to interview someone, you would not want them to be restricted to certain topics. Same here, but more so. The net is our last refuge.
OT – Tenet so smarmy on Hardball
Escalation is a topic that’s been discussed a great deal at Firedoglake, so it’s not surprising that no one got off topic when Senator Dodd was here.
Equal pay for women is an important issue, but it’s not one I’ve seen a lot of posts about here at the lake. I’ve seen it a lot on other mostly feminist blogs, but Senator Clinton showing up and bringing it up was a just a little bit out of the blue.
It’s disingenuous to say otherwise.
As far as asking tough questions, the problem is you risk getting deleted, especially when the instructions are be polite and on topic.
My point in the comments following Senator Clinton’s appearance here was this: it was a very different experience than the usual Firedoglake blog experience. All the freewheelin’ quality of the place completely disappeared.
That was my point. If you’re telling me to go ahead and be freewheeling anyway, no matter who’s here, then so be it.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 130
I’m hoping that The Peanut is feeling much better, very, very soon. Poor little sweetheart, and poor Momma.
Please give her a hug from all of us.
-S
Jane Hamsher @ 206
Jane-sama, (curtsey), I did not and do not think either what I said or the way I said it were rude. I can find no implication that I thought anyone who asked a question was a sheep. But, for instance, Ms Clinton was here on April 24, and on April 18 the Supreme Court had upheld the ban on ‘partial birth abortions’ in Gonzales vs Carhart. The nation is paying billions for a ruinous war and this is eroding social programs which help women. There were, I thought, more than the usual number of warnings about ‘off-topic’ and although women’s pay is a huge topic it is not one that can be considered in isolation. Personally, I feel it is a symption of a much larger malaise.
And it’s not like equal pay for women is a hot topic here at the lake — there is not even a tag for it in the thread index. No one had time to prepare, either. Normally we would read the book or otherwise do our homework.
So while we all had questions for Ms Clinton, they probably weren’t about equal pay. I feel we were being warned to not ask them. The regular commenters always put on their company manners for guests so most of us, being good firepups, erred on the side of caution and did not ask anything that would reflect badly on our hostesses. But after the important lady has left, can we not ask whether we could have asked her about abortion or Iraq?
smarmy, oily, dodgy,
Chris, Chris, Chris, our intelligence was wrong…
barf bag please
One of the many things I admire about FDL is the deliberate and foresightful way in which Jane manages its growth and development. I like knowing that there’s a long-term vision for the site and that our participation is understood to have strategic power that goes beyond the daily hit count. FDL has never abused my trust in that respect, and Jane’s care in addressing site policy issues like this is part of the reason why.
Boston1775 @ 293
That’s why I turned it off. I can barely tolerate tweety in the best of times and when Tenet is being so smug and sanctimonious, yeccchhh! (shuddering)
My 2 kopeks, people who comment here, for better or worse, feel a sense of belonging and ownership and often make suggestions about how to improve things.
This is likely to be partly helpful and partly annoying. To the extent that FDL has created a large and loyal community, that is a huge success.
To the extent we commenters don’t realize that this is still primarily the blog of the original front pagers, and that it is neither a democracy nor the commons, and our ‘helpful’ suggestions are often not so helpful, we are a work in progress.
I would strike the balance this way: encourage people to make suggestions, then have some feedback about what level of idea generation is productive. Including this comment of course.
Now that I’ve been here for a while I realize how much work Jane and Christy and the other front pagers put into FDL and have only the utmost respect for their efforts.
THANK YOU JANE AND CHRISTY.
Valley Girl @ 281
Thanks for your response Valley Girl. You are probably right. I guess I am overly sensitive to being accused of doing a drive by comment (not a post).
Hillary did respond to some questions, however brief. That was a good thing, IMO. I doubt any candidate running for president would have done much differently without elaborate pre-arrangement. Though not particularly a Hillary Clinton supporter, I thought it was quite brave on her part.
Perhaps a moment in time that is likely to be unrepeated?
Step away for an hour or so and come back to a great thread with all kinds of superb ‘articulation’ in discussion and debate. What a treat. :)
Can we at least try to not tick off the martians too?
Boston 1775 #297, you nailed it. Unbelievable.
Kathleen @ 227
I thought we were doing that, posting on the previous thread. Which is what often happens at Book Salons and when there is a guest or anytime they’d rather not participate in the newest thread. Whether they would come bak or not is of course, up to them.
This was comment #4. At comment #27, the Senator joined us and addressed comment #8. An oversight, and an unfortunate one, but hardly intentional given the format.
Senator Clinton was here from 2:00 to 2:15.
xoites defends Constitution @ 303
Well OK. But those weirdos from Saturn are still fair game.
Boston1775 @ 293
this war has made him a very very rich man.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 130
Oh my! Take care you three!
egregious @ 299
Hear hear!
OT Drive-by: New Thread…
xoites defends Constitution @ 303
Better the Martians than the margins. Right, mods? ;})
Following up from way upthread, re: what Eli mentioned about my commenting habits:
I don’t comment as much these days in threads by other writers here because I just don’t have time to hang out that way. Work, work, work.
I do comment in my own comment threads, joking around, answering questions, engaging ideas in a non-confrontational way, mostly.
What I stopped doing was calling, well, bullshit on comments I thought were off base. I didn’t used to say “bullshit,” but I did confront what I thought were errors of logic or fact. That’s something I sometimes used to do back when I was a commenter here and not a front pager.
After being accused of “taking a machine gun” to the community and of “bullying” people for commenting in the same way I occasionally used to comment here back in October of 2005, I realized people perceived me differently based on a kind of presumed power or status in my role as a front pager.
I therefore adapted by behavior, cutting back on the give and take of ideas a bit, figuring I get my say in the main post and after that my job is to play a good host for the party, hang out and answer questions if it helps calrify things.
It was all a learning experience. I also had to realize that, just by personality, I have a higher tolerance for verbal conflict than many people do, and it’s not personal. I also often write in a very direct, sometimes clipped style that others interpret as hostile when it’s just an attempt to write and speak clearly.
TeddySanFran @ 306
Thanks Teddy. That’s a keeper! Already starting her campaign file.
xoites defends Constitution @ 303
It’s 90 degrees here so I switched to icy mojitos.
Elliott @ 308
Did you notice that Tenet called Tweety ‘Tim’?
new topic upstairs. thank god.
Nate @ 315
Oh wait… Martians not Martinis? Oh well, I won’t tick them off either.
xoites defends Constitution @ 291
I’m with you! An in that very order!
Texas Betsy @ 307
Geeze! You are never happy just coexisting are you?
newtonusr @ 309
Christy please take care of peanut and self! Wishing you all a peaceful night.
Best family meeting I’ve been to in awhile.
twolf1 @ 316
missed that one, too funny
if Tenet’s looking for absolution, he’s failed
Oh Christy, missed that about the Peanut. May the Goddess speed her recovery and help both of you get the good sleep you need.
The problem with Hillary is that she is a major candidate and has major unanswered issues with the blogosphere. Iraq and her obsessive triangulation to name the top two. Dodd, Kerry, and others really don’t have anything like this lurking out there.
It would be rather if Obama another major candidate came here and nobody asked about his lack of a real record or experience in government. Or if Gonzales showed up and no one asked about the US attorney firings, NSA warrantless wiretaps, politicization of the DOJ, and other assaults on our rights.
Hillary coming here to what is usually a freewheeling site and be able to choose her topic and for that topic to not reflect the top questions that the blogosphere has for her is manipulation. The real question is not that Hillary came here but that she was allowed to come here given the conditions. I would have said no but then it is not my blog site.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 269
Yep, we’d been discussing her doing a post but she chose the topic and the time. We didn’t get a lot of notice.
I know there’s another thread up, but I couldn’t post earlier.
That seems to be a very good working definition. That should help clarify things.
I thought Senator Clinton was here on the day designated for discussions on equal pay for women. The MSM had stories on the subject so it wasn’t like Clinton pulled the subject out of her hat and said, “Hey, this looks like a good one to keep me out of trouble.” As if there is such a one.
Jane Hamsher @ 326
See, it’s the “choosing the topic” that’s a slippery slope, I guess.
jello5929 @ 230
I respectfully disagree (to a degree!). By focusing to a specific topic for questioning, we encourage drilling the discussion down to a greater depth of thought and, perhaps, policy specifics that the classic town-hall format doesn’t allow.
That old format — 1-2 questions on a wild array of topics — plays to politicians’ talking points. It doesn’t get to the meaningful specifics we all so desperately want. And it doesn’t get them engaged enough to speak openly and frankly and give us some insight into HOW they approach situations.
As one who’s done a lot of hiring, my favorite questions were those that required the candidate to think out loud, right there in front of me. Way more enlightening than “what are your greatest strengths?”
IMHO, of course.
lolo got the ZeD☼
There’s a new Thread
i like having a topic….a reason to gather in the first place….because just like any party, you have your blowhards who want you to listen to their pet subjects, ones with a potty mouth, deep thinkers, factual data providers, cutesy party girls, kind shy people, etc……..gives common ground to define it better……..
and yes, it is their living room, just because we bring a dish to the dinner-paypal or commentary-doesn’t mean it’s our party……..
i think the variety of posts provides plenty of room for people to be able to comment on topic each in their own time…….the side conversations having to do with breaking or ongoing news i think are on topic in the general life of the place.
jane has repeated a few times that the constriction of topic for hillary was jane’s rule, not hillary’s…….i think not having a topic would have been a room full of monkeys.
any forum here should not be a slugfest. i have been completely turned off when it has turned into that kind of recourse.
this place is rare because it is thoughtful. in inception and practice and outta stay that way…….
and jane, my best friend says, when you try to satisfy everyone, noone is satisfied……isn’t possible to do it. so do what you think is best, it’s your living room.
HotFlash @ 310
I must have missed this comment earlier.
Although i have the utmost respect for those who started this site and those who post here i would respectfully suggest that a site that has a growing following such as this has become more than a site. It has become a community. Within the framework of the vision of this site i feel it is fair to say the people who participate in it shape it and influence it. I am not suggesting that the creators and operators turn control over to those who visit and use it, rather i am suggesting that a responsible ongoing dialogue concerning conduct and direction is appropriate at all times.
Interestingly, that seems to be going on as i type this.
Christy, asking people to be respectful of guest makes complete sense. But whether you want to admit it or not there is some “ass kissing” here at FDL.
When you (Christy) say or demand something folks generally “roll over”. I understand the need for order and respect, but I have noticed it at times goes over board.
That is my observation and opinion! It is perfectly o.k. if we do not agree!
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 48
Good points. I sure got strong thoughts about that cheap sellout named HRC. And yes, most MSM will take ANY stance, to up ratings or sell ad time.
And I guess, yeah, more politicians would be good. I’d just like to be able to tear into them and rip most of them to shreds for their bullshit and fuckery!!!! :grin:
But, back to Shilary;
HRC IS HRC.
She’s NOT anti war.
She’s PRO A*P*C (to USA detriment).
She’s PRO Interventionist.
She’s PRO Corporate AmeriKa.
She’s PRO Military Industrial Complex.
She’s done NOTHING to suggest she will close the income gap tween have’s, have nots, done NOTHING to suggest she will grow DOMESTIC jobs, much less put pressure and incentive on Corporations to DEVELOP domestic jobs.
She’s done NOTHING to suggest a major battle to develop alternative energy sources to wean us off oil, or to battle global warming.
Why she was even invited is beyond me. Oh sure, all politicians are welcome. Sure! Let’s GIVE aid and comfort to the enemy (tongue in cheek as any good ReThug woulda pointed out). She’s the enemy.
She doesn’t DESERVE the space FDL has cut out for itself (thru their hard work which I respect, and I trust, done in a belief of a better world for all), and she’s not deserving of FDL efforts to ‘dialogue’ with her.
Gore, Kuch, Edwards, maybe.
Even Obama has proven where his PAC money’s have or will be coming from. The War Party!
Shilary was a low point, IMHO.
And wage inequity, at THIS TIME OF THE PLANET, is a sub-issue. Big Brother (Shilary Per Se) wants your soul, and wage inequities gender wise are SO small a piece of the fight for A PLACE IN THE SUN, as we all thought we boomers were raised up to believe in.
This is no time to take an eye off the target. Or be distracted.
The Magna Carta has been subjugated, Posse Commitatus done in, Civil Rights in general eliminated, Women’s Rights falling quick (can you say Christian Veil/Bhurka?), a comprimised DOJ that can’t be trusted anymore, a Supreme Court bought and paid for by Big Brother . . . know I missed some, but, hey, FILL IN THE BLANKS! It’s an ugly time!!!!
I hope, FDL will remain committed to ferreting out the CARNAGE done to our country by those like HRC, the ReThugs, The Southern Fundie’s and all the usual suspects of MIC, Corporate AmeriKa, NeoCons, A*P*C’s Of Our Lives, etc.
Harumph.
Ya know, just occurred to me. I might be missing something REALLY REALLY big and simple.
Does FDL have a mission statement, that I’m overlooking? If so, and it supports the effort to bring HRC here for what ever purpose, then, all the above becomes my opinion, and NOT a rant of selling out on the part of FDL.
I like crow. I can eat SOME crow. Stuff with raisons and tapioca, and lots of lemon, it’s ok . . . HATE those feathers, though . . . ;-)
If politicians show up, I say, we should be able to eat them alive, and then feed them crow to choke on if we don’t like them.
Harumph.
Edited * by Mod
HotFlash @ 296
People did, and we let the conversation flow quite freely after she left. The National Journal didn’t pull those comments out of thin air.
There is no topic tag for equal pay because it’s never in the news and we generally write about what is in the news. Hillary Clinton has the ability to make something news. Equal pay is important, maybe not to you but to all the women who don’t get it. She was introducing a bill. It was, I believe, important and absolutely relevant. And I’m not quite sure what you’re disagreeing with, because as I said in the post, if you believe other subjects are relevant to the topic at hand you are free to introduce them into your questions.
EPU’d yet again. Sigh.
If you think you have it rough, Bob in HI, try living in Africa. Not only do you get no respect, you miss all the conversations.I always get to read the interviews with pols, authors etc after they’ve been and gone.
Some of the posts&comments dealing with the minutiae of US politics and corrupt people on trial I will skip but I always read Late Night/s and the Salons.
In general, your policy positions are to the right of mine, but I enjoy the community spirit here and admire greatly what you have done to stir like-minded people into action.
I am a daily reader but always a timezone behind for commenting.Hi Texas Betsy & Cassie & other newbies from
Suez in SA
Hugh @ 325
Good lord, how many times do we have to say it. Those are *our* rules, they apply to ALL chats, they were not conditions imposed by Hillary Clinton.
newtonusr @ 309
Strep and Scarlet Fever…intense!
Mother, Fathers, Parents the Masters of multi-tasking!
Really like the old Lemon and honey or brown sugar soothing tea trick. I believe I have all ready mentioned the slippery elm powder mixed with honey paste either eaten straight or made into a tea. Kids love it!
Suezboo @ 337
Hi Suez. Great that you’re reading and participating from Africa. Are you a US citizen?
Hi Hugh,
I agree with what you say, but when I bitched about that — on the previous thread (Jane’s If The Shoe Fits, about the SCOTUS abortion ruling) when Sen Clinton was here:
So this was by way of being a guest post, I guess, not a meet-the-candidate like the Blue America folks do. But it wasn’t clear at the time, and those of us who expected it to be like other candidate appearances we have had felt, I think, constrained. I hope she comes back and does an open chat, for all the reasons you say. And it’s not even for our benefit, so much. She could do herself a world of good here if she came across as open, competent and concerned.
You’re holding onto it so tightly that you’re missing it, Jane.
Another old fond saying around is: You’re new here aren’t you.
Kathleen @ 334
All due respect Kathleen, but “roll over” and “ass kissing” are a bit stiff.
I don’t let people smoke (anything) in my car, and if they respect my wish, I don’t think they feel like they rolled over, or kissed my ass.
Madam, bite your tongue ! (Draws herself up haughtily) I am a proud South African.
You got Bush. We had Mandela. Take that!
US citizen indeed . Mumble mutter.
Actually, my brother, sister-in-law & kids are and live in CA.
Suezboo @ 345
My apologies Ma’am.
Suez at 336 — One of these days, maybe I’ll get lucky enough to get to your neighborhood for coffee. (Have always wanted to travel in Africa…too many places to name in one comment, actually, but I had a friend who grew up in Mozambique and her stories about the countryside around her family’s home were mesmerizing.)
Let me know when, Christy, and I’ll put on the kettle for you.
Likewise, Christy, should you ever make it to FL, I hope you know the coffee is on me.
Jane Hamsher @ 338
As I was addressing the content of the post, I am unsure what rules you are referring to but with regard to the content as you wrote:
This would indicate that Hillary chose the content, and you allowed. It’s just not the decision I would have made, sorry.
Hugh @ 325
Jane Hamsher @ 326
Which I think speaks to a lot of why this ongoing conversation has been missing the point with some people. FDL did the best they could do under the circumstances. Hillary Clinton, in some respects, manipulated when and how she would take part in an FDL chat. That fact isn’t lost on Jane or Christy or the FDL community as a whole. She either knows that or will figure it out. Then she will either act accordingly by being more willing to be ‘freewheeling’, or she will be left out of the conversation with no opportunity to have another give and take here. She has a choice but it isn’t all hers. It’s up to the FDL owners and also us participants.
Ed*ard Teller @ 322
Oh ET, you called it. We have them here, and I know you’ve called a family meeting in Alaska.
My measly 2 cents on this subject is the following:
Hillary is in a very difficult position as a candidate and will be as long as she is one. There is no way she could afford to be ambushed on a blog where her every word on controversial subjects would be immediately quoted and used against her.
I thought the commenters were polite, and I thought the topic was okay, but obviously not one of the major topics about which voters have a problem with her, but an important and interesting topic, nonetheless.
Personally, I don’t think any major candidate would agree to come here unless they could control the topic.
If people had been rude or launched their frustrations at her, no other candidate in their right mind would agree to put themselves in that position in the future.
While it is frustrating to not be able to challenge her, she has been quite clear about where she stands, and we would not be able to change her mind.
As voters, we will have to make the decision necessary when the time comes to vote for the best candidate we can.
Any invited visitor and any fellow commenter or poster, should always be treated with respect. From what I have seen on FDL, it is very rare to see conflict – only discussion, which is why this is such an important venue for sharing thoughts, ideas, and information in a civilized manner.
Suezboo @ 345
As one American to one South African all i can say is that i look forward to the day when those are merely locations, not countries and we are free to move about. Free to move about like diamonds and coffee are today.
solai @ 292
“On topic” conversations are good for getting deeper into a subject. It’s like working on anything — stay in an area and make more progress in that area. Jump all over and you cover a lot of bases, but just barely — and there’s a good chance you won’t get to anything new. Free ranging conversations are good for introductions and general exploration. To every season…
TeddySanFran @ 258
Everyone “here” may be in favor of equal pay, but the question is: what can be done about it? If the subject were “easy” I’d think it would be fixed by now. More controversial subjects tend to be ones that keep Congress polarized. I think it may be a good time to push for equal pay. People need a little break issues that have Bush at their center. By comparison, equal pay seems like a fresh breeze.
I’ve only been reading here for a week or so. It was the YouTube music links that hooked me. Kudos to everyone involved here.
Suezboo @ 345
I was trying to think of something the US exports but Guns, War and poverty is all that comes to mind. I thought i would leave it out of my last comment.
xoites defends Constitution @ 356
Jobs. We export lots of jobs.
dick c @ 355
What is “funny” about the equal pay discussion is the Equal Rights Amendment and how it was defeated way back when. The big argument coming from Phylis Schaffley and Anita Bryant was that if the ERA passed we would see women in combat.
All women got out of this debate was combat.
Jane Hamsher @ 219
Sorry, Jane, my bad. I was really objecting to my experience of Hillary elsewhere, and projecting that inappropriately on the FDL chat. My apologies.
Bob in HI
xoites,
Ever heard of the PC and Intertoobz? That you guys did.
And Coca-Colonization.We got :Coke, KFC, McD, movies, music, jeans, games,the whole enchilada (which sure isn’t African).
OK, you guys got all the gold, diamonds, wealth etc but, hey, we don’t hold it against you (much).
Globalisation=global capitalism=Third World is the proletariat.
Not to get all serious on you at 2.40 am.
TeddySanFran @ 221
OK, my bad again. The preznit’s press conferences are staged to make it look like they’re open. So FDL gets kudos at least for being open and above board about its rules.
Bob in HI
Suezboo @ 360
I hold it against us, why the hell shouldn’t you hold it against us?
From King Leopold raping the Congo to Ronald Reagan’s “Engagement” theories (or how I side stepped my moral obligations and upheld Apartheid) we have done little more than take every thing we can grab in Africa, including its population which we placed in slavery.
-snip-
xoites defends Constitution @ 358
I’m sure they get a tee-shirt too!
dick c @ 363
Only if they were willing to get wet while wearing it.
*xyz @ 259
Wastin’ away in EPU-ey-ville’
Searchin’ for my lost shaker of salt,
Some people say that there’s a woman to blame,
But I know (yes I know) it just could be my fault…
Anyone read Deborah Tannen’s You Just Don’t Understand, or her Gender and Discourse? I like the conversational atmosphere here more than what I find on most male-dominated lists, and Tannen explains the difference much better than I ever could.
Bob in HI
Nola Sue @ 163
Nola Sue!!!
DING! DING! DING!
I know we’re in EPU land here, but this suggestion says it all –
FDL has an opportunity to be a standard bearer here!
Obviously I am missing the important points raised here, but none the less let’s remember that there are still facts we need to be aware of when considering situations.
When one is in TOTAL agreement on the subject matter, there is little to add. When the server isn’t working right, there are voids. When the world is in motion, there are sometimes MORE IMPORTANT issues we haven’t reached agreement on being presented.
As an “off topic” commenter on the day our next president visited, I have three comments. First, as a male with a brilliant mother, wife and three daughters, I assume that equal pay is an obvious inequity…where’s the discussion? Second, there were at the time of Hillary’s time with us real time, right now issues at play in the news for which consensus amongst us hadn’t played out. Third, the darn server wasn’t working and it appeared (to me, at least) that FDL folks were off doing other things as opposed to addressing questions to our future leader on what we all agree upon (equal pay for equal work).
So, I tried to fill the gap until others showed up.
Shoot me.
Texas Betsy @ 321
My best wishes, too! Take care!
And see the doctor as often as necessary!
Bob in HI
Off topic!
U.S. brutality is naked in Baghdad for all the world to see!
Tonight on the BBC more news of the “humanitarian crisis” in Iraq. Hundreds of thousands dead, homeless refugees, difficult getting food and basic supplies, kidnappings. Brutal Brutal! HOw do our elected officials sleep? How do any of us sleep?
I have a friend who was in Iraq before the invasion with the Christian Peace maker Team and has gone back 4 times accumulating close to three and a half years in Iraq. She just returned! She has shared that many Iraqi’s believe that the right wing zealots who lied us into the invasion and occupation of Iraq knew just what they were doing by not sending in the needed troops to secure the peace, secure the historic sights, keep the Sunni’s on in jobs that they had under Saddam’s regime etc. Many Iraqi’s that she has talked with believe that the lid was taken off the Sunni/Shiite anger and built up hatred so that these atrocities could take place. That it does not matter how long it takes to privatize the oil and control over this region (they believe U.S. and Israeli control)
Peggy said that many Iraqi people compare what is happenning in Iraq (although on a much larger scale) to the Sabra and Shatilla massacre where the Israeli army surrounded the area giving cover to the Lebanese phalangist as they massacred Palestinians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S…..a_massacre
I am so ashamed of what my country has done in Iraq! (must be that Catholic guilt, or could it just be a conscience?)
Are the Iraqi people safer now that Saddam is gone? Are we?
The American people and the Bush administrations brutality are naked in Baghdad for all the world to see, but most Americans are too busy to notice, too busy driving their SUV’s.
Kathleen,
HOW DARE YOU STRAY FROM THE TOPIC!!!!!
Texas Betsy @ 346
Can you loan us Mandela for a while? Or if he’s not available, maybe Desmond Tutu?
Have they by any chance founded a school or university based on their principles? If so, I would love to send some scholarship money their way, including some for International students.
Bob in HI
PS Thank you for your kind words @ 337
hychka @ 367
Too messy, counter productive, and (DAMN YOU!) off topic. :)
Well, let’s say I’ve been severly criticized at home for my last two posts.
But, I’m standing by this one.
If I have only one chance for getting my concerns fopr the free world before Hillary Clinton, I won’t waste typing on the subject of equal pay when I know four square where she stands. It’s a fact. Accept it. The subject was such a soft pitch, what did you expect when neighbors are dieing because of our policies in Iraq.
hychka @ 373
My opinion is: stand up for what you believe, do it non violently, be as polite as you can.
Consider and accept the consequenses.
We have an obligation to speak but not an obligation to be heard. We can not hear for others, however how we deliver our message may determine how well it is recieved.
hychka @ 373
I’m glad you don’t think equal pay is worth discussing.
Can I assume you’re a man?
Sorry, I now read your earlier comment. Of course you’re a man.
hychka @ 367
Go here – you can say anything you like, get others to chime in on your priorities, and entice all the glitterati that your respect in the blog community commands.
Really.
Tribe Scribe and Nola Sue – y’all are inspirations.
The Lake would create a great candidates’ debate.
Ladies of the Lake – would FDL enjoy organizing the debate (and “blogcasting”)?
Four hundred phone calls? Enjoy?
Would the hassle be worth it?
TribeScribe @ 366
I sat through the entire Hillary dog and pony show here and I cannot tell you how disgusted I was, that the ONE person I saw (I may have missed some others) who had the stones to ask HRC about Iraq, was stepped on.
While equal pay is indeed, a very important issue, making that the topic while the war on Iraq, something Mrs. Clinton was very influential in helping create, is still going on, is kind of like asking a burn patient about the room decorations when the patient’s skin is burned down to the flesh. Having been that burn patient, I know what I’m talking about.
Whether HRC likes it or not, whether the site owners and mods like it or not, the war in Iraq is the elephant in the room. To bring HRC on here and then shield her from questions about her VERY PRO WAR voting record for the past six years, in my opinion, is insulting to the membership here. I certainly took it as an affront.
I chose not to comment because I was SO ANGRY over the person who asked about Iraq being shushed, I could not have been civil, so I chose to STFU.
I think it’s a complete waste of time to have candidates on if they’re not willing to answer any question, as long as it is asked in a civil manner. As far as I’m concerned, that was a dark day in the history of FDL.
That’s my story, and I’m stickin’ to it.
Jane, does this mean I am largely female because I read your blog? and emptywheel’s Scooter testimony? i hope not.
And as a quick follow-up, if HRC is the Democratic nominee, I’m voting for Joe Walsh.
Hillary Clinton is a female Joe Lieberman. I will never vote for her.
jello5929 @ 187
I agree 369 percent with this psot.
Guitar_Playing_Bastard @ 379
Another man heard from.
Next….
Guitar_Playing_Bastard @ 382
You know, accuse me of whatever you want but this is just bullshit.
I write about things all day long that are important to me that are “not the war.” Equal pay is important to me. If you think it’s fluff, I’m assuming you are…another man.
Equal pay is not exactly controversial, though, is it? I’m guessing 99% of those who post here are for it. I’d say a lot more could be done about it and that about 99% of FDL’ers support that.
So, it’s very, very safe to show up as a Presidential candidate and express your support for equal pay.
Kind of like being for motherhood and apple pie and American flags. Totally non-controversial.
Classic Clinton, I would call it and here’s FDL providing a unquestioning forum for it. Sheesh…
Any other men want to chime in on how important the war is and how we little girlies should just STUF about equal pay because we all agree on it and that’s why it is, of course, the law of the land?
Funny crossover here. Men/ladies STFU/Hilllary haters. Dunno what conclusion I should be drawing.
Slothrop @ 385
You’re right. We never post about topics we think our readers will agree with us on.
What was I thinking.
Note to self: Tell Christy to knock off that “Pull Up a Chair” shit.
From now on we’re all AIPAC, all the time.
Jane Hamsher @ 386
Jane, not one single person has suggested that women STFU about equal pay.
But I just asked my VERY feminist partner (who doesn’t read or post here) about this, and (you’re not going to like this), she also thinks failing to confront Mrs. Clinton with her Iraq voting record while letting her preach to the choir about the topic of the day made for a complete waste of time.
Equal pay is an important issue. I would never deny that. But my partner said “In the larger context of where our nation is today, it’s not the most important issue of the day and Mrs. Clinton was cowardly to hide behind it as though she were Crusader Rabbit.”
That’s a woman talking, Jane, not me.
Jane Hamsher @ 387
DANGIT JANE, THAT’S NOT THE POINT!
What’s going on here? Are the comments about becoming more like the MSM hitting home a little bit? They ARE valid, you know.
If you were as sure of your own position as you’d like people to believe, I don’t think you’d be this defensive.
Actually, being a stats gal, having done scads of factoral and canonical analyses, i would have loved to have seen this comment and question, which would have bridged many related threads:
Sen. Clinton, the lack of Pay Equity for women in this country is a symptom of the same misogyny that pervades Fundamentalist Islam. Misogyny is also expressed, in particular, in gay-bashing, our approach to foreign relations, the disintegration of civil discourse and the practice of obfuscation/lack of informed consent in contractual agreements.
As potentially the first female President, in what way would a constitutional amendment mandating equal pay have a domino effect in all of these related arenas?
Pay Equity is the tip of the iceberg, or, if you will, the loose end of a very big ball of yarn…
TribeScribe @ 391
Wow!
I bow to your genius.
Jane Hamsher @ 143
Still, it might be fun to invite someone like Mitt Romney or Rudy Rudy Giuliani.
It’s not Hillary’s cherrypicking of issues-per-venue procilivity that drives potentional voters away screaming in droves, shouting, “GOD, NO! ANYTHING BUT *HER*!!!!”
It’s the sap-thick layer of insincerity and the masklike face of favor-currying that never hides the Manson-lamp eyes of naked, crazed GREED that drives people away from her.
She’s as phoney as a nine-and-a-half-dollar bill.
She’s as creepy as Freddy Kreuger being PTA chairman.
Guitar_Playing_Bastard @ 393
tnx. I blame my assessment mentors.
too many canonicals… *hic*
Guitar_Playing_Bastard @ 390
Suggestions that JH has gone, or is going MSM are astounding. Your comments have the feel of an infantile tantrum.
Mrs. Clinton, like her, love her, hate her (and I’m no fan), may well be the Fucking President of the United Fucking States in 2009, and any chance to chat with her on any topic is well worth it.
Wanna fight her candidacy? Fine.
Wanna sit and pound on the floor like a two-year-old?
You’re putting your prerogatives ahead of those of the proprietor.
All due respect, you are way out of line.
Jane Hamsher @ 386
Jane,
Well, thanks for educating me. Equal pay is important, and I think it was indeed a major coup for you to get Ms. Hillary on board for a little while. And I think it was gracious of her to answer a few OT questions in her limited time. I hope that her experience with FDL was good enough so that you will be able to lure her back for an encore.
I really do appreciate the work you have done and continue to do, creating the space that FDL has become [snarks included! :-) ]. Blogs and e-lists tend to take on the personalities of their founders/moderators to some extent, and FDL is testimony to who you are. And, BTW, I hope your cancer treatments are going really well, with few of the horrible side effects many such treatments have.
Aloha,
Bob in HI
Jane, ROFL
Next they’ll be telling us not to vote for or listen to any women at all. Oh wait…
We’ll make a deal with you. You guys start teaching your yourselves and your sons to control yourselves and not rape. Guarantee that the excuses, abominations, and violence against us gets eradicated, shamed out of existence. And us ladies will be safer and not require so many abortions.
Furthermore, show us the passed Equal Rights Amendment right now. We need it to live with. I didn’t say “want”, oh no, we demand it.
Show us where the shamefully high rate of abandoned mothers of dead beat dicks that raise their children with no help from the fathers are taken care of, valued and paid equally, or I’ll show you a corporation where it’s painted in a mural on my company wall that all the men will make 30% less just for being so fucking indifferent and insensitive about this issue that will affect your childrens children.
And now I see that Jane is being accused of being ‘defensive’? Better whip out your Cowards Midol there..guys..you need it not her.
Guitar_Playing_Bastard @ 389
Yes, I know. As in “some of my best friends are…”
I. Cono Plastic @ 395
Thank you for that piercing, insightful observation.
Nope, no Hillary hating here. None at all.
Guitar_Playing_Bastard @ 390
You’re absolutely right. When a bunch of
menpeople show up being completely dishonest about their agendas emgaging in overt mysogyny I usually am cool as a cucumber and would never, ever engage in snark to call bullshit.Boy you sure do have me pegged.
Hey where are all the women saying they don’t want to hear about equal pay and that unless they’re allowed to throw grenades at Hillary Clinton FDL is a sell-out site?
*crickets*
Jane Hamsher @ 400
OK, you’re in the bunker, now, there’s no reasoning with you. Have a nice day.
Jane Hamsher @ 402
No one has suggested equal pay should not have been a topic when Mrs. Clinton was on. I simply believe making it the ONLY topic was like filing the barb off.
She came on, got to preach to the choir and get mostly softball questions thrown at her, while ignoring the elephant in the room, gave her an easy out, an easy time, when in fact, she should not have had an easy time at ALL, given her voting record on the war.
In addition, I don’t appreciate being called a liar by someone who doesn’t know me. I have NO anti-woman agenda, I am 369 percent in favor of women being paid equally. I vote for candidates who would vote for an equal pay amendment, should it ever come up. I write my congresscritters regularly on women’s issues. I have NO children to educate but I have, for years, advocated in certain fora, men take charge of their own reproductive destinies. I have advocated responsible sexuality and I have never once suggested women should not be paid equally.
But *I* call bullshit as well, Ms. Hamsher. You let HRC off the hook, for reasons I still cannot fathom, given your previous writings. I was shaking my head in disbelief when you shushed whoever asked HRC about Iraq.
HRC is Joe Lieberman in a dress. You let her off the hook. That was a deep and bitter disappointment.
So we should have equal pay, we just shouldn’t talk about it when important stuff like war is goin’ on.
I get it now.
That’s me, off to bake a pie.
Jane,
I think having candidates on to discuss a specific topic is a great idea. Watching how people deal with a single issue is the best way to see how their minds work. That is the format for the French debates, where the two candidates deal with issues in an extended discussion.
That said, it is difficult to formulate a sensible question about a complex issue like equal pay. How do we enforce it? What is it likely to cost businesses and government? These questions are too easy. If we formulate the really interesting questions, we would get a good insight into the way she thinks.
The problem with having politicians as guests is that too many of us have no chance to talk to them and we really want to talk about the things we care about. That leads only to exchange of sound bites and no one can learn anything from that. For a perfect example, look at the discussion with Mike Farrell. He agrees with so many of the progressive positions, and when people asked questions about them, he gave the standard progressive position. Asking real questions is hard. If it were easy, MSM reporters would do it.
So, the more notice the better, and the single issue questions are a good format. Thanks.
And Jane, can I have some of that pie?
I’m gonna go start a MANBLOG. This girl-bashing is just too much. At my MANBLOG, there will be no girls allowed, and therefore no girl-bashing.
I think it’s kind of a unique idea — a blog run by men, for men. With no women, unless they bake PIES.
Pies are good.
How in depth could we get in 15 minutes?
It was a toe dip in the Lake, no matter what the topic.
Jane,
It seems to me that the issue or question is what type of world do we want to inhabit? Or if that is a legitimate question. Do we want a world where people are paid what their contribution is to society OR do we pay people what they are able to suck out of the system, against some arbirary, sustance base.
This is such a fundamental question that people are afraid to have it asked because it challenges a myriad of other societial assumptions. As Americans, those questions fundamentally challenge one or more of our collective myths.
I predict that in the next few years, these myths will fall to a more dominant reality…and women will have equal pay. Juat remember this is a pioneering venture. You guys are missionaries and we are skeptical converts (at least on topics with really deep metaphorical roots. Keep up the good work.
Here is a first cut at a real question: If we assume that there is a fixed amount of money available to pay workers, wouldn’t equal pay for equal work automatically mean that some men would make less money so that women could make more?
And if we assume that the amount money available to pay workers could be increased, it must come at the expense of one of the other stakeholders in the business community, executives, or investors, or in the form of higher prices. Or some combination of all of the above.
What does the senator think about these trade-offs, what would be the right mix, what can be done to encourage that mix, and so on.
By the way, most men are married to working women. If their wives make more money, they will benefit too. So this isn’t just a women’s issue, it is a family issue.
T-Rex/ some of us just didn’t know she was going to be here, and didn’t get onto the thread until she was gone. Which also happened to a number of the readers here, who had no problem with her little cameo-with-sugar visit.
The notion that your readers can only comment, or have an opinion about, one of the guest bloggers here, if they can make it to the actual thread they’re on, is just smug nonsense, to me.
I got here as soon as I could, to find out that Christy had, early on, threatened people with having their posts deleted, if they didn’t stay “on topic”.
She was as good as her word. Even with Hillary gone, she, or someone, deleted several of my posts complaining about you guys’ insistence that we NOT throw Clinton any tough pitches.
Jane:
None of the visitors you mentioned as supposedly being…equivalent, are the frontrunners for the democratic nomination.
None of them were supporters of the war, or voted to enable it, AND whom are refusing to flatly state that it was a mistake, at the same time they’re running for the democratic nomination for president of the United States.
None of them helped the republicans put Joe Lieberman back into the U.S. Senate.
I also asked if there had been ANY kind of deal, arrangement, or disussion, with Hillary or her people, in which they asked for, or you guys offered, to restrict the discussion to the comfortable and safe subject of equal pay for women. Which, it’s safe to say, practically everyone who posts here with any regularity, would support.
Note to Pachu:
I’m not interested in seeing transcripts of the conversations between the site staff here.
All I’m asking is: was there any discussion of restricting topics whatsoever, from either side…request, or offer?
Because, if we can’t ask that of you guys, when you have the frontrunner for the democratic nomination on here, and only let us toss cupcake questions at her, then YOU don’t get to ask Chris Matthews, Tim Russert, etc., etc., if THEY are letting THEIR guests cull the topics they want to discuss.
(Pachu, I’m also asking if you really believe that Hillary is unconcerned about her standing with the progressive blogs and their readers, or, that her people with whom you talked, were just blowing smoke at you, when they said that?)
She HAS to win primaries early and often. She is just like the republicans in the respect that the longer the war in Iraq continues, the harder it’s going to be for her to explain her positions and previous statements, and her refusal to eat that vote, once and for all.
To that end, I think her people and staffers are desperate to crush Obama and Edwards, as early as possible. The longer one or both of them can hang in the race for the nomination, the worse it gets for her.
She can dodge the tough questions for the time being, and only piss off the progressive democrats, but as Iraq continues it’s death spiral, and with no good way out for us, or for the Iraqis, it’s going to get harder and harder for her.
Once the primaries start, she HAS to clinch the nomination quickly, or her support will start to erode under the pressure of Edwards and Obama, coming after her with the same kind of questions that you wouldn’t let us ask, when she was here.
I get a little paranoid, when one of the best blogsites, which did yeoman’s work to help Ned Lamont, makes kissy-face with Hillary.
As Guitar-Playing-Bastard said;
You let her off the hook. And then tap-danced about doing it.
Thank you. Thank you for getting it.
Perhaps this discussion deserves a bit of a time-out, because it appears that some positions are hardening beyond where the normal back and forth would drive them. I value and respect FDL and the continual effort it takes to keep it alive and growing.
Many of the men here seem to be put off that in limiting the discussion to that pertaining to Equal Pay Day the real issues which HRC needs to be confronted with were shoved off the table. Jane seems to be confusing her ability to front page all kinds of taboo topics, which all here love and respond to even if they don’t agree, with how leaving virtually all other issues off the table for Clinton is a very limiting format analogous to current MSM. And those of us who criticize her for it are “men” with obviously no sensitivity to the equal pay issue. That’s a laughable position, at least regarding my four decades of being conscious, if it weren’t such a blind take on debate here.
Criticizing the format has nothing to do with wanting you back baking pies… that’s an insult.
The reality is very different. No matter what the format, 15 minutes means absolutely nothing here. That’s a candidate drive-by. We could well have our own ground rules to include that there is a minumum time the candidate must be here, no matter what their schedule, or the answer is no, find another online forum.
I too was disappointed by HRC’s appearance here, and more by the limited time than by the blog-imposed subject. I believe i even had a post deleted, though for certain it was after she’d left, and it was not because i have too much testosterone, it was because i didn’t see the comment to keep things on topic even after HRC was gone. Simple.
I believe in the long run it will have been a ground-breaking new direction that HRC dipped her toe into the Lake. But i also believe that the correct format for the next years’ likely visitors has not yet evolved. This is NOT an author discussing the topic of the book, these are candidates for the HIGHEST office which could bring criminal amurka back within the world community… or not.
Jane, i’m sorry you think i hold these views simply because i’m a man. You of all people should know my vision is based upon higher brain chemistry than testosterone, and for certain is more than willing to meet you more than half way.
(PS. And i do think the women of Iraq should have an equal chance to have bullet and bomb free lives for themselves and their children even if amurkan women on Wall Street don’t yet have the same level of bonuses as men, or hopital workers the same salary. And HRC is as much responsible for this inequality in bombs per day as any in the then “opposition.”)
Ahhh, synchronicity. As if to back up the view that HRC’s visit allowed some serious women’s issues to be ignored in the discussion, here’s today’s article discussing the horrible increase in infant mortality in Iraq beginning with the days of sanctions continued by her husband’s administration and ending with the current horrendous fiasco.
Don’t worry about being behind any eight ball. It was announced yesterday she is starting a whole new phase in her campaign slanted towards women with money with hopes they’ll contribute to her and vote for her. What angers me about this new ‘woman phase’ is that she regards us as some neanderthal monolithic voting block. She’s saying to us, ‘contribute to me, vote for me, because like you, I am a woman. Be a part of the history of my inevitable candidacy.’ To which I respond in very female fashion, Bullsh*t!
masaccio @ 406
You are absolutely right. And I should have done that. Next time, more notice.
Tanbark @ 412
Okay, one more time. And I’m going to say this SLOOOOOOOWWWWLLLLYY so you can understand.
The rule about restricting topics is OURS and what’s more you’ve been here since April 2006 and if you’ve been paying the least little bit of attention you should know that. We enforce it all the time. Ever seen that note to commenters at the top of chat threads? “Please stay on topic and take OT stuff to the previous thread?” Surprisingly, that’s what that means.
There was never any discussion with Hillary Clinton about the need for “restricting topics” because those are our ground rules, Peter Daou knows what they are, he’s actually led book salon here before and knows we enforce them across the board when we have people here for chats.
Can I make it any simpler? Really I don’t think I can, but maybe if I repeat it enough some who seem to be having a really hard time with comprehending a rule that has held around here for two years when it didn’t get lifted so they could pelt rotten eggs at the women with the temerity to run for President will finally understand.
Guitar_Playing_Bastard @ 413
Yes. The bottom of this thread has turned into the mysogynistic cesspool you always wanted.
Crazy Horse @ 415
Because equal pay is not a “serious issue.”
Thank you, sir, for your enlightening comment.
Pie?
I. Cono Plastic @ 395
No Hillary hatred here, no. None at all.
All of you guys should pat yourself on the back for your high-minded reasonableness in the face of the girls who are screwing up the place and keeping you from pig piling on that other uppity girl who thinks she could be President.
You uplift us all.
No one ever told me that Firedoglake had a mostly female readership. I’m curious about this, Jane. How do you know?
Jane: I think focusing on a specific topic will encourage a more detail oriented discussion that drive by questions. It always surprises me to see some hate filled piece against Hillary or Biden, etc. I don’t understand it, and I ignore it. If we want politicians to come by and answer questions then it is better to focus on a topic. Asking all and everything may sound okay but it leads to the very result we complain about, i.e. that politicians give generic answers ro generic questions.
Skanking1 @ 422
It doesn’t.
According to our Blogads survey our readership is, I believe, at about 45%. That’s significantly higher than the 34% blogospheric average (though don’t quote me on exact numbers).
Bala Pillay @ 423
There is so little access to Hillary Clinton and she insulates herself so well that I can understand the “driveby” comment when it comes to her. I can well understand the frustration one feels when Hillary is able to wrap herself up in a “i can’t lose on this issue” such as equal pay while being inaccessible on issues such as her support for the likes of George Tenet, “Sandy” Berger, Louis Freeh, etc. As for Biden as well, a buffoon if there ever was one and a distraction.
It will always amaze how Hillary is able to play the woman card to intelligent women.
Jane, regarding my posts late on this thread, you’re slapping at straw dogs. Nowhere did i say that equal pay wasn’t a serious issue… even the part you highlighted serious women’s issues to be ignored omitted the word “some” i wrote before it. There’s a war on as amurka is destroying the planet for energy control, and many of us want HRC to address that.
Here’s what else i wrote from my pie-loving mind: (PS. And i do think the women of Iraq should have an equal chance to have bullet and bomb free lives for themselves and their children even if amurkan women on Wall Street don’t yet have the same level of bonuses as men, or hopital workers the same salary. And HRC is as much responsible for this inequality in bombs per day as any in the then “opposition.”)
summation: It may well have been appropriate to let HRC restrict the topic for her first visit lasting 15 minutes. But it’s a lousy way for FDL to move into the future of trying to hold some serious discussion with Presidential candidates. Half hour minimum, perhaps an hour minimum. Topics can be focused for a certain time period, no problem with that given net format.
But to think i’m belittling women’s issues?
left dc in 72 @ 425
So we’re suckers for falling for Hillary’s game?
Thank you, sir, for pointing out to us gals the silly-headedness of our thinking. What would we do without you.
Pie?
Crazy Horse @ 426
If the shoe fits…
Were all these people to show up leveling all this unwavering hatred at Barak Obama, or calling him a sellout for focusing on civil rights when “we all agree on it and we should be talking about serious matters like Iraq” I don’t think people would have much trouble pegging it as abject racism.
And BTW, you’re just making that 15 minute shit up to advance your oh-so-high-minded point.
Thank you, Jane and Christy, for working so hard to advance issues important to women everywhere. And an extra super-sized thank you to you Jane, for engaging people who complain about it head on in the comments.
That last part is such an important part of fighting for women’s rights – demanding that women who break the norm are treated with the same respect a man in that position would be. And the very fact that some people don’t see their own double standards – that they truly have no idea they treat Senator Clinton more harshly than other candidates, well that simply shows how much work there is left to be done.
Again, thank you for fighting the good fight!
Jayne,
You are doing incredible work here. I hold you in very high regard.
I apologize for making fun of the “stay on topic” rule. It’s your blog. You have made it what it is by pulling together so many talented people. I’ll stay on topic in the future.
Steve
Sara in Stockholm @ 429
Thank you, Sara.
The nature of these things is that people who have these complaints don’t show up until the end because they don’t want to deal with the disapproval of all the people who would express it up top so the bottom becomes a cesspool where they all congregate and congratulate themselves on their lofty principles none of the rest of us are quite smart enough to appreciate, bless our little girly heads, and then the National Journal shows up and thinks they’ve got themselves a big story.
Na. ga. ha. pa. this time. At least not unanswered.
Jane,
You are doing incredible work here. I hold you in very high regard.
hychka @ 430
Thank you, Steve.
You don’t have to stay on topic all the time, only with guests during chats. When Christy and I are blogging we don’t care, we’re usually off trying to put together our next post and grateful for people who show up with OT ideas. It’s quite different when a guest shows up and has prepared themselves to speak about something, particularly one who has never done it before, and people are all over the place. It just doesn’t lend itself to a deep discussion of a topic which is what we’re trying, however successfully or unsuccessfully, to encourage.
I would (and have) put my comments anywhere in a thread… i commented late because that’s when i had the time here 9 hours later at GMT 1 here in Europe. I’m always prepared to let my views be debated, and i know that i put a lot of effort into trying to write what i actually believe. I know i’ve had my own views widened, even changed, here because there are so many talented people here. I like having my views tested. That’s why i remain here at the Lake with great respect.
You seem to be ignoring what i’ve actually written, and ascribing motive to my words which don’t exist, so I’ll leave it for now. “Making that 15 minute shit up”??? I would have had the same view if Al Gore came here for 15 minutes on windpower… that it might have been a nice opening but doesn’t achieve what this forum is capable of achieving.
Enough.
In regard to my comment at 406, another good example of trying to deal with politicians is Jon Stewart’s last interview with John McCain. Stewart is really smart and an accomplished interviewer, but he couldn’t get McCain off his sound bite responses. It got to the point that they were trying to talk over each other, which I have never seen on that show.
Smart as the commenters on this site are, we aren’t going to do better than Stewart in extracting something from Senator Clinton she doesn’t want to say. If she wants to know what we think, all she has to do is read the posts and the comments. A question that merely restates my opinion is useless.
Asking questions is hard. I do it for a living, and I think that preparation is the key to a good question.
where is the history of Firedoglake’s concern for the issue of equal pay? How many posts in the past year? The past 2 years?
Jane Hamsher @ 427
Did you ask a question?
Ok you have more tolerance for Hillary than I can muster. I actually dislike all of these institutionally branded technocrat politicians like Hillary,Gore,Bill Clinton, Kerry, etc and it has nothing to do with gender but more to do with elitist unimaginative personalities. But can I ask you a question? Do you believe that Hillary Clinton actually believed in the NIE and Tenet when she voted for the war?
Crazy Horse @ 434
Hi Crazy Horse, I remember reading the thread in question and there was some sort of tech glitch at the beginning. That ate into the Senator`s chat time and when she eventually came online there were only 15 minutes left until she had to be somewhere else. So no-one planned for a 15 minute chat – it was simply the way events unfolded.
Crazy Horse at 434 — FWIW, we wanted her to be able to chat longer as well. There were connectivity issues at the outset, so Sen. Clinton could not get in to chat for several minutes for some reason and her staff had to work around some sort of problem to get her into the comments that neither we nor they had anticipated. As she had a very limited timeframe, that cut into the time tremendously and undercut the interaction. Normally, when we have a lengthy period to time to do set-up with a guest, we do a dry run on chatting but, as Jane has repeatedly explained, this was a last minute opening and we simply did not have time for a run-through that day.
As Jane said much earlier in the thread, having these guests over is a work in progress — both for us and for them. Each chat we have, we refine what our thoughts are on how things did and did not work, and the folks we are trying to get to come by for subsequents chats (as well as trying to get back for a repeat) learn from them as well. In this case, we’ve learned that a last-minute schedule opening isn’t necessarily advantageous because it doesn’t give us the ability to give you all decent notice on guest and topic. But, in all honesty, the uproar on the whole “on topic” issue came as a huge surprise to me because we have always enforced it with all guests (ask ET sometime about how many of his early posts in Blue America threads got zapped when we started doing them because they were O/T). There is something about Sen. Clinton that just sets people on edge from the moment her name is mentioned in some instances…and whether the discussion was an open topic one or a settled topic one, that would not have changed one bit, I don’t think.
In all of this, the thing that keeps getting lost is that the moderators were working their asses off to keep things moving as smoothly as they possibly could. It is not easy to keep freeing things up, pulling nastiness back for a second look, and trying to keep up with comments as they fly at you from all sides — I said this in the thread, and I mean it, that some time I’m going to turn off all the filters and give the moderators the day off and see how everyone likes it here after that. Because, honestly, given how much spam and racist invective they hold back in a single day, I wouldn’t even want to be here. We are constantly trying to find a balance — the fact that everyone expects it to perfectly met their own, personal expectations spot on, with no hitch in the giddy-up every single time? That is simply unreasonable, and we are never, ever going to meet that expectation. But trying to keep this conversational, in-depth and to bring in people who need to be questioned in an environment where they and we can both interact? That’s where we are trying to go. This is a very new thing, and we are trying to learn from each chat — but the format is one that Jane and I like, and as such it is the one we are going to continue to use, with a few tweaks as we go along.
Slothrop at 436 — Read Jane’s comment here. I believe that answers your question.
As one who has been called a troll and booted off a Red Hat Linux discussion group, I find the comments here, as there, reflect the conflict between individual and group. Jane and others built the site. As proprietors, they are inclined to set what they see as beneficial rules. Others, as members of what supposedly is a community of equals, bridle at restrictions. The conversation can get testy.
As for Hillary and others, I think the single issue format misses opportunities just as I think impertinent questions should be asked. When Hillary walks hand in hand with Bill they lie to all of us. That goes to her core far more than her position on women’s rights. We would be better off if someone asked Gorge Bush long ago how God communicates with him, by voice, flaming finger or whatever. Our connection to class structure, long and extreme, has us deferring to people who are crazier than we are.
Jane, this is your soapbox. You have the right to limit it as you please. If you are interested, I vote for openness and no rules.
If Clinton does get elected, as I believe she will, this thread could be used as the evidence of just how much anti-feminism she had to overcome on the left to get there. It’s incredible the double-standard that “progressives” try and hold her to, while giving the men a pass. Incredible.
T- @ 8
HRC was only here for a half hour. I went back and read the comments and by the time that some of the “tough” questions were asked, she was gone. I don’t think it is fair to criticize the askers of the questions to show up on time when they had no idea that the event was even happening.
Tom W. @ 442
How is it “anti-feminism” to ask an impenetrable candidate to explain her postitions on controversial legislation? If Clinton is not elected, as I believe she will not be, this will be the reason. She won’t talk about her support for the war vote.
Crazy Horse @ 434
The point is that she was here for more than 15 minutes. Yes you made that up.
“Yes. The bottom of this thread has turned into the misogyinistic cesspool you always wanted.”
Horseshit, Jane.
I have a daughter and three granddaughters. And I assure you, I am VERY interested in their receiving the same pay for the same work that men do. And in legislation passing to ensure that that happens.
But it’s an outrageous cop-out for any woman on here to hide behind skirts on this issue.
Are you willing to overlook Hillary’s support for bush’s war because she has the “temerity” to run for president? I hope not.
While you’re complaining about our “sexism”, can you spare a thought for what the women and children of Iraq are going through, at the same time that “temerity-woman” can’t even say, straight-up, that she made a mistake to help enable the hell-on-earth that George Bush has made of Iraq?
As you praise her courage, may we not ask her, and now you, why she didn’t have enough of it to support Ned Lamont from the gitgo?
In plain english, what in the plu-perfect hell is courageous about coming on a progressive blog to say you support equal pay legislation?
And, let ME go slooow here:
Did you say to Peter: “Bring her over, Pete, we only have one topic for guests.”
And, who decided what the topic would be?
Is it okay if some of us ask that?
The facts in this are not up for grabs.
You and your staff brought Hillary Clinton on here for a puff-piece cameo on a safe subject.
She has been among the staunchest democrats in support of bush’s war.
She STILL hasn’t totally eaten that enabling vote, and in fact has put her foot down to the effect that she isn’t going to.
She helped the republicans return Joe Lieberman to the senate.
AIPAC owns her butt, and evidently, her conscience, too.
With the bloody shitmire that’s going on in Iraq, bringing her on here to talk about her position on equal pay legislation, and stopping your readers from questioning her on this loon crusade, which is going to cause us, and the world HUGE problems for the foreseeable future was, I feel, a slap in the face for your readers. Some of us said so. Some of us are still saying so, and because we’re pointing out kid-gloves treatment that you insisted on for Hillary, you’re calling us “misogynists”. Not good. Not rational. Nothing but the kind of red-herring-logic that we get all the time, from the right…and not true, since I haven’t seen ONE post in all of this, that was opposed to supporting equal pay legislation.
What did you think of my statement that Hillary HAS to win the nomination quickly, or she can’t win it at all?
I’m asking, because the entire Hillary thread, as constructed, was something that would occur on a site that was not far from making an early call for her.
If I’m wrong, and I hope I am, please correct me.
As CrazyHorse points out,
left dc in 72 @ 437
Thanks for being honest — you just hate Hillary and don’t want to see her here. I appreciate the fact that you are not trying to truss up your sentiments in fancy raiments and pretend that it’s some high minded commitment to principle (that doesn’t apply to Chris Dodd and John Kerry) which motivates you.
As for Iraq — I don’t agree with Senator Clinton’s position at all, and I can’t believe the mysogyny on display is so overt that I’m sitting here at the bottom of a day-old comment thread battling it back.
This debate over Hillary is necessary. A lot of us in the progressive side of the party are sure she can’t win the general election.
She has been among the strongest dems in support of the war.
Her positions on a number of the most crucial subjects have been more republican that democratic.
Often, she is MUCH more driven by considerations of how a public position or statment will play, than in making a stand based on conscience.
And lastly, it is the purest horseshit to call those of us who point this out, and who want to discuss it, “Misogynists”.
Tanbark @ 446
Yes I know, some of your best friends…
Superb choice of imagery to bolster your excellent feminist credentials. What do your “best friends” think?
Excellent point. As long time readers of this blog can attest, I actually I don’t give a shit about what women and children in Iraq are going through. Fuck ‘em.
For the record, both Ned Lamont and his senior campaign staff were extremely happy with the support they got from Senator Clinton. You don’t even know what you’re talking about.
No I didn’t, read the fucking thread. Once again, Daou has led a book salon here at FDL and well knows what the rules are, nobody had to explain anything to anyone. I just don’t know how many times I’ve got to repeat it, he already knew what the rules were. Is this comprehensible?
She did! For the love of God, she introduced a bill that day on the subject and wanted to talk about it.
Yes and nobody has denied you that opportunity but once really is enough, especially since it’s been answered at least six times in this thread alone.
You’ve dominated at least a half dozen threads that I can count with this irrational, fulminating hatred of Senator Clinton. Dress it up any way you want but it is what it is and no amount of bluster, denial, repetition or flat out ignorance is going to change that perception.
Tanbark @ 448
YOU’RE debating Hillary Clinton and trying to deny her the chance to be here. WE’RE trying to provide a forum and insisting she has the right to particpate in it. YOU’RE trying to shut that forum down for Hillary Clinton and ONLY Hillary Clinton.
We’re debating two different things. And yeah, I do think you’re a bit of a pig, albeit a probably well meaning but not terribly self-aware one.
Jane, my three granddaughters are not my best friends; they’re my granddaughters, and if you have any, I care about mine, as much as you care about yours.
Which is why it’s so offensive (and asinine) to have you refer to someone who was only pointing out the truth, that you guys brought Hillary on here and then covered her butt; as someone who hates women.
It’s the cheapest of cheap shots, and it was done by someone who is (I hope momentarily) upset that their blogsite is getting very, very, real, instead of continuing to be the adoring echo chamber.
Trust me; IF you guys try to whitewash Hillary, and shove her down our throats, there will be worse to come. You’re going to have to become a campaign site for her.
I don’t hate her; I don’t think anyone who’s posted on these threads about her visit, feels that way, but the notion that she gets a pass on her unconscionable support for bush’s war, and on pimping Lieberman, and on her general ducking of the tough issues, just because she’s had the “temerity” to run for president, is just nonsense.
And that’s a fact that we’re all going to have to deal with, much more intensely, as the campaign cranks up.
Sweetness and light died when that first Abrams rolled across the Kuwait border.
We are in world of hurt, with no good way out, and just now, having one of the people responsible for it, AND who is running for president, on your blog for a puff-piece interview about something which we all already agree on, is a bit scary to some of us.
Jane, you and the staff here have a decision to make. Your blog has gotten popular. You’ve done some excellent work, and people, including me, are appreciative.
But push is coming to shove, for the country, and you are going to have to decide whether you want to head for the middle of the river, where your “fan base” gets broadened, or whether you still want to run the swamps and blackwater creeks, with the people who supported you early on, for having an open site, where we can cuss and rant some, and ask the tough questions that don’t get asked in the MSM.
If you start oozing toward the middle, you’ll probably get more readers, and more advertising, down the road, but there’s gonna be a price to pay for doing it.
And if you doubt that, just take a look at Hillary.
ER, I think 450 comments is hardly “shutting the forum down,” Tanbark.
My view is that much of the irrational hatred for Clinton on the left comes from her gender, pure and simple – it’s often dressed up as other things.
Can you hit her on the war and support another candidate? Sure. But the level of vitriol she brings out in people is heavily laced with anti-feminism. She’s held to rhetorical standards that the other major candidates aren’t, pure and simple.
Tanbark, it’s very clear the proprietors of the blog were not prepared for the kind of criticism they have received. Their binary replies are the best evidence of this.
I think there are women in politics, right now, who are fully prepared to be POTUS. I would indeed, vote for many female Democrats, should they choose to run. Hillary Clinton is not one of them, not because she is a woman, but because she is a charlatan who has not the courage of her convictions.
I think women should be paid equally for the work they do. I believe in equal rights for women across the board.
The proprietors have chosen, against common sense to retreat into ad hominem and straw men arguments, for reasons only they know. It would appear they have not the courage to admit they made a mistake. It would appear as if they thought they should have flocks of adoring fans, throwing rose petals in their path, for getting the great and powerful O…er…Hillary to grant them an entire 15-minute audience.
How they can translate “you let her off the hook” with “shut up and make me some PIE” is beyond my ability to reason. Mainly because it’s not reasonable. It’s a quick and dirty ad hominem, a passive-aggressive way to try to get the fight onto a non sequitur rather than actually debate the underlying issue.
Because when it comes to the underlying issue of letting HRC off the hook, they don’t have a leg to stand on.
Make no mistake, I admire, respect and appreciate most of what Jane, Christy and others do, even if I think they need to fight dirtier. But they behaved very much like Tim Russert that day.
Finally, there’s another issue here – precedent. The precedent has been set, the candidates can “control the message” here at FDL.
I can see the other candidates now “Well you didn’t ask HER about Iraq, why should I have to?
Hmm FDL…Meet the Press…FDL…Meet the Press…
My mind drifts back…to the 6th grade and reading…Animal Farm…
“No question now, what had happened to the faces of the pigs. The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
As Tanbark said – dangerous ground. ‘Nuff said.
You know, I’ve had my disagreements with FDL and with Jane on a couple of minor things, but this charge of creeping “Russertism” is frankly, ridiculous.
Many guests have appeared here – an impressive array. Many of them limited their topics. But Clinton brings out attacks on FDL because some people believe – and htis seems personal to me, especially as a New Yorker where Hillary has been a surprisingly-effective Senator despite her misguided war vote – that she’s a “charlatan who has not the courage of her convictions.”
what an arrogant thing to say.
Tom W. @ 454
I believe what happened here speaks for itself. I believe the debate here, the proprietors’ retreat into ad hominem speaks for itself.
If you want to continue to give HRC and the proprietors here, cover, knock yourself out. Just don’t expect me to go along with it.
Well, if you want to keep on doing the radical right’s attack-dog job for it in terms of our likely nominee – knock yourself out. Just don’t expect me to go along with it.
What ‘Bastard said…
and Tom W.:
“she’s held to rhetorical standards that the other major candidates aren’t, pure and simple.”
This is gibberish. Pure and simple.
Was she held to different rhetorical standards here?
John Edwards has twice unequivocally gnoshed on HIS vote to enable. Once, over a year ago, and again, recently.
Barak was against the war from the start, before he got into the Senate.
Both of them clearly recognize that the bloody debacle in Iraq is going to be THE issue of both the primaries and the general election. And they’re both talking about it without it being dragged out of them like a wisdom tooth.
I think Hillary is somewhat like bush and the republicans, in that she just wants it to go away, so she can “stay on topic” about safe issues.
Up until a few months before the mid-terms she was speaking out in favor of a troop increase in Iraq.
She was practically silent as bush was attempting to gin up the support for attacking Iran. Not surprising, given her close relationship with AIPAC.
Hillary is doing the republican tapdance, as she tries to find the price-point to get nominated and then, elected:
“I’m going to get some republican votes, and I’m going to get enough MOR democratic votes, to win the presidency.”
She will not. The republicans hate her with a white-hot hatred. Not one percent of the people who voted for bush, will vote for her, if she wins the dem nomination.
If we believe her people who talked to Pachu, she’s writing off the progressive bloggers, and that means, to a substantial degree, the progressive wing of the party.
It’s a prescription for a political disaster, and as she pursues it, if she’s been held to tougher rhetorical standards, I’d like to see you post some of them.
Oh this is great. I got two men left in the cesspool, one threatening me, the other accusing me of creating some Orwellian nightmare.
Portending doom from my creeping crawl to the “center” because both of ‘em are…uh…representative of hordes who just aren’t quite brave enough to show up here and be Truth Tellers like the two of them.
Can you please resussitate that old chestnut about how we expect nothing but “rose petals” when I take issue with what you’ve said? I guess this little gal doesn’t get to be a “truth teller” like you brave boys.
I admit we actually were thinking of giant TVs with TRex’s face on it, but everyone wanted to be the first to chuck a taser through it so we just said screw it and stuck with YouTube.
Tom W. @ 456
And that is exactly what it is.
Tom, you mean the “radical right’s attack dog job” for her helping put Joe Lieberman back in the Senate?
Will you go along with that?
Or, that about her support for the war. (Until the mid-terms got here, and she discovered her inner anti-war personna.)
Tom W. @ 456
Hillary Clinton is not a part of the radical right, but she’s close enough to walk.
I have never voted for a Republican in my life. I never will.
But I have to say, between her support for the war, throwing Ned Lamont under the bus and that ridiculous “It Takes a Village,” concept, HRC is not a person I could ever vote for.
It is my great hope, as the campaign moves along, that HRC will no longer be the front runner. Not because she is a woman, but because she is not a person who shares enough of my views. Very simply, on the issues I care about, she’s poison.
No one that beholden to that many interests can be trusted. I’d vote for Obama, Edwards, ESPECIALLY Bill Richardson, and most of the other Dem candidates.
But if the party nominates Hillary, I’m voting for Joe Walsh. Because I have the courage of MY convictions, sir.
No, Jane, you just said “screw it” and stuck with a sweetheart interview of Hillary.
Guitar_Playing_Bastard @ 455
As opposed to you:
Thanks for restoring the debate to such high mindedness. You’re fucking Cicero, you.
BTW, please let us know what you’re smoking. With as many times as you’ve repeated that 15 minute fantasy, it must be the good shit.
Guitar_Playing_Bastard @ 460
Once again, both Ned Lamont and his senior campaign staff were very happy with Hillary Clinton’s support during the campaign.
You are entitled to sit here and spew bullshit, but you are not entitled to do it unchecked. Those are just the facts and there are no “rose petals” involved, Cicero.
“I guess this little gal doesn’t get to be a truth-teller like you brave boys.”
Nonsense, Jane. You spoke some fine truth in the good work you guys did for Lamont.
Which made it all more irritating when you you used your good blog to wash Hillary’s feet.
Tanbark @ 459
She helped put Joe Lieberman back in the Senate. Source please?
This may well be the most ludicrous thing said in this long string of statements – almost as wild as accusing Jane Hamsher of shimmying to the center.
The only response is: Ha!
Tanbark @ 464
Please site your source for “she helped put Joe Lieberman back in the Senate.” Because Ned Lamont disagrees with you. Or does he count?
Jane Hamsher @ 457
Hey Jane, do you think you could actually debate the issue instead of spewing all the bullshit? Your reaction to all this suggests we’re hitting a lot closer to home than you would ever be willing to admit, but you have yet to refute a single issue Tanbark and I have raised, you just continue to blather on about how we’re wimmen-haters who think you should be making PIE.
I got news for you, I make better pie than you do, and I like doing it.
You know damn good and well you weren’t prepared for the criticism you’ve gotten and now you’re pissed and jumping up and down like some little kid who was denied possession of the latest action figure at Toys R Us.
Christ almighty do you throw tantrums like this every time someone criticizes you?
Guitar_Playing_Bastard @ 468
Please cite your source for “15 minutes” and “she helped put Joe Lieberman back in the Senate.”
*crickets*
Come on, truth tellers. Let’s have some.
I’m waiting. Both of you have said “she helped put Joe Lieberman back in the Senate.” I would like to know why you are right and Ned Lamont is wrong on this front.
Jane, a simple suggestion:
Get John Edwards on here, and tell the readers that they have to stay on topic, and the topic is, taaadaaa!!!
His health plan.
Then, let’s see how many of the posters here, sing your praises for your…temerity…in having him on for a substantive and relevant inteview.
:o)
I didn’t want to comment again, but since i’m still lumped in with…
First, thanks Christy for a detailed restating of what you should have had to say only once. Those of us who really do care what goes on here know it’s a work in progress. some of us recognize that in a half hour, there can be hundreds of comments or questions, and no guest, under no format, will be able to deal with that. Even if there would have been more notice, that would only have let more people ask questions.
So the normal free rolling discussion here probably can’t really work as we would wish it. Some of us also recognize the incredible work of the mods, and frankly, because the discusion is moderated i choose to spend the amount of time here that i do. Hats off.
Dozens of times i’ve let my respect for what happens here be known, in the warmest of terms. But Jane, the shoe doesn’t fit here, and i didn’t make up the 15 minute thing, even if she was here for 23 minutes. My distrust of her is based upon her record and nothing else.
I’ve had long conversations with Nancy Pelosi, especially about energy policy and the environment, and respect her strongly… even despite my complete disagreement with her stand and work on privatizing the Presidio. Had nothing to do with her gender.
Better i stop now, but acknowledge that i was here from the beginning of HRC’s visit… and out of respect for this site i commented nothing (i hope) until she was long gone.
Tanbark @ 473
I’m waiting. You have said “she helped put Joe Lieberman back in the Senate.” I would like to know why you are right and Ned Lamont is wrong on this front.
Crazy Horse @ 474
Then where did it come from? Because it’s not true, and we’re done arguing bullshit opinons here, we’re gonna argue facts.
That’s a disingenuous, Jane.
She was outspoken in her support of Lieberman in the primary.
Then, when Lamont defeated him, not even she could stand the flack, if she had supported Lieberman’s run as an independent.
Also, given A*P*C’s support for Lieberman, it would be interesting to know what was going on privately in that campaign.
I mean, you guys are good at ferreting out the bullshit from the asshats; all we’re asking is that you do it from the Clintonistas, as they try to triangulate Hil into the white house.
[edited by mod]
*whistling*
Gee it’s quiet in here.
BTW, If you get Edwards here, be sure to let us know in advance that he’s coming, and you might also let us know what SINGLE TOPIC we’re supposed to stay on.
Chirp?
She never campaigned for Ned. She never spoke in public, other than *immediately* after the primary. She wrote a $5K check. BIG FUCKING DEAL.
She should have been leading the charge. She did not. I don’t need a source for that, I saw it for myself. I don’t need some smart-ass MSM “journalist” to tell me that and you’re really down in the cesspool yourself if you’re defending her “support” for Ned Lamont. Chris Dodd campaigned with Ned. He supported Ned. Hillary wrote a check and washed her hands of it. That ain’t support in my neck of the woods.
If you want to believe this is a gender issue (I don’t think you do, it was just the easiest hook to hang an ad hominem on), knock yourself out.
Your real colors are showing here today. There are a lot of sycophants who will leap to your defense but if all you want around here are sycophants, you have more problems than anyone can deal with, on a keyboard.
You fucked up, Jane. You let HRC off the hook.
You fucked up.
Tanbark @ 478
Thanks for keeping this so high minded that the mods felt they had to step in.
So Ned Lamont is full of shit and you are the superior expert on this particular front?
I’ve cited my source. You have yet to cite yours other than some mouth breathing hypotheses about AIPAC connections and Clitonista boogeymen.
And total silence on the 15 minute front.
I’m still waiting.
Guitar_Playing_Bastard @ 482
Ned Lamont disagrees with you, Cicero.
Please cite 15 minute source.
I think the 15 minute thing comes from Hillary’s first post at 2:00 until her last, at 2:15.
Jane, I gotta get some lunch. It’s your site, it’s a good one, and you get the last word. (for now…:o) )
I don’t think you’re selling out. I think you guys just brainfarted in thinking that you could get Hillary on here (which WAS a bit of a coup) and restrict us from asking her questions which some of us feel are, just now, of more importance that equal pay legislation. (Which is a lock to pass, in the next congress. :o) )
And, not have some of us complain about it.
Hey, if we’re free-ranging ‘nethogs, we get to flash a little tusk now and then, and we need to. :o)
You guys aren’t claiming to be sacred, and that’s good, because none of us are. It’s just that sometimes, relative to the petro-borgs, as Drift calls them, we get to thinking that we’re some combination of Albert Einstein and Mother Teresa, because we have the smarts and the hearts to know just how wretched bush and the republicans really are.
Hard not to. :o)
But, I believe that what’s coming down the pike, in and out of the party primaries, is going to be like nothing we’ve seen, except, maybe when Lincoln was running, in his two elections.
Good stayin’ on topic with you. :o) See you soon. TB.
Well, one more little tweak.
‘Bastard; ouch…that’s gonna leave a bruise.
:o)
Jane Hamsher @ 470
Um Jane, you have an attribution problem. Nowhere in ANY of my posts did I mention 15 minutes.
Try again.
With regard to NL’s disagreeing with me, I don’t care if he does. That’s an honest disagreement, and whether he believes it or not, whether YOU believe it or not, I am entitled to believe what I do. His motivations may be different than mine, and he has more to lose by publicly disagreeing with HRC, if he ever decides to run for office again, but the fact is it’s a red herring anyway.
The real issue, as I see it is this: HRC came on here, you refused to let people ask her about Iraq, despite the fact it is the single most important, over-riding issue of the day, and HRC has a LOT to answer for with regard to her support of the war and her support of Joe Lieberman.
Every feminist I know, and I know some that make you look like you’re in the kitchen making PIE, agree. The one I sleep next to, EVERY NIGHT, agrees with me, and I’ll tell you this, she has more cred with me than you ever will, especially after this little tantrum of yours.
You wanted the rose petals and when you got the Klingon pain sticks instead, you got vewwy angwy.
Welcome to crunch time.
dick c @ 485
The post went up at 1:39 and she was here from the moment that it did. As I noted in the comments at the time, we were struggling backstage with her login issues.
So if anyone wants to quote a “time” it would be 36 minutes officially, although she was present and we were communicating well before it went up.
Guitar_Playing_Bastard @ 488
Sorry, I got my high fiving dickheads confused. My bad.
No ad hominum attacks here, none at all. You are one high minded, civil fucker aren’t you?
I’ll just shut up now because your feminist friends have given you the Good Gyno Seal of Approval and if I disagree with someone who tries as hard as you do to elevate the discourse I am demanding “rose petals.”
If the thin skinned amongst us are going to have to leave the building when things get rough, the door’s over there.
More so than you, it would appear. You didn’t like the criticism and you got pissed. NO ONE has engaged in the kind of ad hominem you have, and you still refuse to debate the issue of letting HRC off the hook. Don’t talk to me about civil discourse when you have the kind of tantrum you’ve been having here.
By the way, I have restrained myself in all this, because I was trying to keep it civil. I can play rougher than you, believe it.
“High-fiving dickheads”…
My goodness, we got sexism, right here in River City…
Who’d a thunk it? :o)
What on earth is this getting any of us?
Tanbark @ 492
And yet she still refuses to address the issue of letting HRC off the hook. But WE’RE the dickheads for calling her on it. You’d think HRC had offered her a spot on the campaign.
Just another fucking day in paradise, man.
Jane,
Please refuse to ask any questions of Hillary Clinton about her support for George Tenet and her “reliance” on him for her Iraq war vote and please do not ask her why she only wants to talk about “equal pay” on your site and please be sure that all tough questions for Hillary come from the truly progressive. I refuse to accept the notion that Hillary has any kind of plan to do anything for anybody other than her petty self. That also applies to the Gores and Kerrys of this generation, a political generation of leftovers from the emasculating effects of the Vietnam War. Let’s skip HRC, Kerry, Gore, etc and move on.
HRC would let the notion float that she is just practical and when elected, good things will happen or bad things will not happen. Well my sister the doctor tried to work with Ms. Clinton on her so called efforts on health care. She and I have no use for Ms. Clinton. But if it is that opposition to Ms. Clinton is played as reactionary on this site, then so be it.
Guitar_Playing_Bastard @ 491
Yes your anger is righteous, and mine is…well, unladylike. I see your point.
Um, Jane, I’m not yet angry. Not even. But it wasn’t me who let HRC off the hook, something you have yet to even deny, so I guess you agree with me about that. Cool, we have some common ground.
Based on this thread, it looks like you’re going to support HRC for president, despite her stand on the war. Good luck with that.
I see you’re STILL refusing to debate the central issue. You’ll do well in the WH Comms office when you get HRC elected. But don’t try to lay claim to any sort of anti-war stance, this thread pretty much blows your cred right out of the water.
That hellhound on your trail won’t be any fun when it catches up with you. That’s what happens when you go to the crossroads and sell your soul. You done sold it, Jane. I bet Hil has e-mailed you a wonderful, supportive message.
Enjoy your accolades. I don’t think I could.
holy cow. this thread is proof positive that having a topic (and sticking to it) is a good idea when visitors are invited.
many thanks to jane and tom w. for fighting the good fight.
Ah, so Senator Clinton is the devil now….very Biblical.
Tom W. @ 499
I’m an atheist. You want to support the “Russertization” of FDL, go for it.
I’m convinced when any variation of the name “Senator Clinton” hits a blog, the Republics are alerted and send in their Hillary slimers.
Selise, we sure are “stayin’ on topic” aren’t we? :o)
BTW, Jane, thanks for opening up this thread.
:o)
Where wuz we?
I dunno; the staff here seems to be possessed of the idea that Hillary, with her support for bush’s war, and with her refusal to admit that it was a mistake, didn’t deserve even a moment’s grilling on anything that is controversial.
Jane, doesn’t that “no, it wasn’t a mistake” scare you some? I think it should, and I think it should have made you tell Pete:
“Sure, bring her on, but we’re gonna open it up, and let some people ask her the toughies.”
Because that’s what this is all about.
Hillary Rodham Clinton is not part of the solution; she’s part of the problem.
And she’s the front-runner for the democratic nomination.
And a lot of democrats are unhappy about the efforts of the same old loser mainstream dems trying to bestow the nomination on her, without her being called out on her uneaten war-vote, or her support for gung-ho Joe in the Primary.
I’m sure you’re smart enough to know that once Lamont won the primary, she had NO option to openly support Lieberman’s trying again, as an independent. Can you imagine what Obama and Edwards would do with THAT, in their speeches against her? Or Howard Dean?
It would have been political suicide for her to back Lieberman in the general election.
And I still insist that by campaigning with Lieberman in the primary, she helped the repubs put him back in the senate. If she had supported Lamont, Lieberman might have done poorly enough that he would have packed it in. And is the irony lost on you, of my speaking those words at someone, on her site, who worked long and hard for Lamont? :o)
Moving right along here, being accused of misogny, when we bring these things up about Hillary, is piss-thin-gruel.
If you guys get John Edwards on, I’ll be the first one to ask him how it feels to be a “populist” who pays $400 for a haircut.
That is, if Christy doesn’t delete me for going off topic. :o)
I know; he’s said it was a “mistake that has been corrected”, or something like that, but that doesn’t change the fact that he likes VERY high-dollar haircuts, and was too politically unhip to know that the publishing of that fact was sure to ding him some.
It’s not a monster issue, but if it had been a republican doing it, you guys would have been all over it, and rightly so.
We NEED to know what these people are like, to avoid another bush. And the way to do that is not by asking the easy questions, but by asking them things like:
“You say you have a plan to end the war. What are the specifics?”
Let’s get to it.
“If you guys get John Edwards on, I’ll be the first one to ask him how it feels to be a “populist” who pays $400 for a haircut.”
You are a Republican, addicted to repeating Republican talking points about stories ginned up by Republicans to benefit Republicans. I don’t care about John Edwards’ haircut and if you tried to ask him about it I’d delete you myself.
Guitar_Playing_Bastard @ 497
Hillary has not emailed me ever, I have never expressed my support for her presidential run, I don’t agree with her on Iraq and your arguments are made up of fantasies that are as foundationless as your claims to be poised and calm.