This is significant:
Antiwar Groups Use New Clout to Influence Democrats on IraqWASHINGTON, May 4 — Every morning, representatives from a cluster of antiwar groups gather for a conference call with Democratic leadership staff members in the House and the Senate.
Shortly after, in a cramped meeting room here, they convene for a call with organizers across the country. They hash out plans for rallies. They sketch out talking points for “rapid response” news conferences. They discuss polls they have conducted in several dozen crucial Congressional districts and states across the country.
Over the last four months, the Iraq deliberations in Congress have lurched from a purely symbolic resolution rebuking the president’s strategy to timetables for the withdrawal of American troops. Behind the scenes, an elaborate political operation, organized by a coalition of antiwar groups and fine-tuned to wrestle members of Congress into place one by one, has helped nudge the debate forward.
[]
On Thursday, leaders of the liberal group MoveOn.org, including Tom Matzzie, the group’s Washington director who also serves as the campaign manager for the coalition, sent a harshly worded warning to the Democratic leadership.
“In the past few days, we have seen what appear to be trial balloons signaling a significant weakening of the Democratic position,” the letter read. “On this, we want to be perfectly clear: if Democrats appear to capitulate to Bush — passing a bill without measures to end the war — the unity Democrats have enjoyed and Democratic leadership has so expertly built, will immediately disappear.”
The letter went on to say that if Democrats passed a bill “without a timeline and with all five months of funding,” they would essentially be endorsing a “war without end.” MoveOn, it said, “will move to a position of opposition.”
The antiwar coalition combines the online mobilization capabilities of MoveOn with the old-school political muscle of organized labor. They have been working in tandem with Democratic leadership in both the House and the Senate on a systematic strategy to unify Democrats, divide Republicans and isolate the president.
For the past six years we've been playing defense and moving to an affirmative position is painful. The sausage making, the compromises, the nudging and shoving of individuals and coalitions into place is a wholly different game than just saying "Bush sucks and here's why" as you stand by powerless to do much about it. It's impressive that many groups not accustomed to collaboration are coming together to lend their collective strengths to ending the war and pushing the Democrats into holding their position on withdrawal.
Last week Steny Hoyer's plan to collaborate with Republicans and save Dubya's ass by calling for timetables for the Iraqi government seemed to be gaining ground. I have no idea where that stands as of this moment, but very much appreciate everyone who took the time to call Hoyer's office and express their opinon on the matter. It looks like contra Hoyer, Murtha's plan for short-term funding may be coming to the fore:
“The latest word from them is they are talking more and more about a short-leash option,” [Tara McGuinness, the coalition’s deputy campaign manager] said, referring to a plan in the House that would finance the war for only about three more months and require the administration to report back on progress being made by the Iraqi government. Congress would then vote again on the rest of the money requested by Mr. Bush.
Members of the Senate appear to be cool to the idea, but it has currency among some liberal advocates and members of the coalition.
Mr. Matzzie, of MoveOn, was clear about the stakes in the coming weeks, saying his group was only getting started. He emphasized that the next emergency spending bill must be one “to end the war.”
“This is act one of a three-act play,” he said. “Act two will be the summer. During the summer, our job is to create a firestorm of opposition.”
A similar coalition of groups got together to fight Alito and it did not go smoothly. It is to the credit of everyone involved that they are working together, evidently with some success, to enourage Democrats to hang together and oppose Bush and bring the war to an end in a fundamental way.
Count us in as part of the firestorm.
(photo from New Haven Independent)
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zed?
DELBERT!
(((((((Jane)))))))
Hi Jane!
I’m dedicating my third zed to lolo.
Evening, GPB!
Delbert RAWKS!
The Republicans and the Democrats who are trying to be “cute” by triangulating the Iraq issue, are going to be overtaken and ground up by events on the ground. 27 American KIA’s over the past six days. The American public seems to tolerate 3 or less killed per day. If the average goes over that, the shit is going to hit the fan; and that’s were things are headed.
Something else the Democratic controlled Congress should be pushed on.
We saw a very disturbing report on NBC News late afternoon today by Lisa Meyers. A follow-up to their reporting last fall on a new military weapon called Trophy which could do what field commanders in Iraq were begging for–save troops’ lives.
But senior Pentagon military told the Republican-led Congress back then they could do the same thing just as fast with Raytheon. Oooops. Guess not.
While our soldiers are getting killed, Raytheon is trying to replicate Trophy…and won’t do it for “at least” five years.
This deserves more than a dead zone news report on Sunday opposite sports. Is this what George Bush and his Republican cronies call supporting the troops?
Definitely the Senate Armed Services Committee and/or other appropriate committees should look into now.
This is what to put into the funding bill along with deadlines for withdrawal. Proper support for the troops, specifically the V-shaped vehicle that’s better than Hummers. And now, Trophy.
But hey, Dubya can hoist his mountain bike while he burns off a little stress…can’t be bothered. George W. gives a whole new meaning to the outlaw term Bush-whacked. Our military are the ones getting whacked…when the technology exists to save them.
I will be breathing down the neck of my Democratic Party, on pulling out of Iraq; on no more unprovoked attacks on other nations by my country; the absolute necessity of a fair and just settlement to the Israeli-Palestinian situation and global warming. And other issues as required.
Hi Jane. I’d like to hear each Dem. candidate discuss his/her position on the war and plans to end it - and not to start any other pre-emptive wars.
It is truly unfortunate that the media does not cover our (citizens) efforts to bring about peace. Many in the Peace movements are ignored. If they get any media coverage at all it’s generally ridicule.
anti war movements pushing for impeachment?
HA
EVERYONE wants these morons impeached, check out newt, I never thought I would say he was spot on but look at this dialogue
Boy, do I ever agree with this. We see the strains here and on a lot of liberal blogs. I feel real rage sometimes when I think about the mountain of problems this freak show administration has inflicted on the Nation. But it won’t be fixed in one grand piece of legislation. We have to move one step at a time, and get it as right as we can each step.
I like our Speaker. And some other Democrats too.
radiofreewill @ 5
radiofreewill,
You are the sweetest. : )
…from Refiner’s Fire thread earlier today. I thought it was significant, and relevant to the current thread, that the WaPo is backpedalling on their Dems in disarray narrative. It’s only a correction, but how often do those happen?
TeddySanFran @ 74
I posted this yesterday. Another example of Republican family values.
Deployed Troops Battle for Child Custody
PAULINE ARRILLAGA | AP | May 5, 2007 05:22 PM EST
www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wi.....nts-at-war
Mr. Gore. Won’t you please run. We need you. Mother Earth needs you. ;0)
great to see this post.It does point out however that as long as the oppositionparty has stooges like hoyer- every single action will be watered down, diluted and non-effective. Don’t tell me that it is great that the dems are acting rather than reacting cause that is just a load of bull.
If you want to act then call for active action against every single media type that refuses to report the commonly known truth.
if you really want to make a difference then push for Zero funding for the troops and force the goopers to come begging for any support.
All I know is that when Reid shut down the congress I felt so enervated and excited that I couldn’t believe it had happened. Sure it was just a simple momentary act but boy was it enervating. Now, what the hell are we doing. Instead of styming the goopers, we are once again Kow towing to the scum. ENUF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I was so proud of Tom Matzzie when I read this. I’m sending more $ to Moveon.
Hannity’s head is going to explode. Hee.
Great idea, Prairie Sunshine @ 7.
perris @ 10
I don’t think Gingrich is calling for impeachment there so much as he’s saying, “Please for the love of
kickback moneykinky sexstock profitsJesus, don’t talk about the last 6 years of unbridled power unless you want a tar-and-chicken-feathers suit at the polls in ‘08…”;>)
No bailouts!
Iraq is the Republicans’ war. No ifs ands or buts. They planned it. They provided false trumped up information to justify it. They are the ones who pulled the trigger (the vote in Congress gave them the right to go to war only if needed). They messed it up. They are still trying to keep it going.
I am tired of Republicans trying to deflect blame. And even after all the deception a far greater number of Democrats used their independent judgment to vote against this war than Republicans - who rubber stamped nearly anything the Administration asked for.
Republican war. Fop (Fox-Republican officials and politicians) war. They are responsible. They are responsible. They are responsible. I think the fops will need to hear this about a billion more times before it actually sinks in, so I’m just doing my tiny tiny part in helping to get the roar from the public going.
The Democrats will stand strong. We will get America out of this mess. And I mean out!
Sweet Jane !!!
I don’t know what all the fuss is over this Iraq occupation. That wasn’t even what the last election was about. According to McCain, it was all about pork barrel spending.
Speaking about spending by the current Washington administration. McCain said the reason the 2006 elections were lost was not because of the war in the Middle East, but because of pork barrel spending. McCain also added that the GOP, “came to Washington to change government, but the government ended up changing us.”
http://www.krnv.com/Global/story.asp?S=6474396
Man, did I ever have things wrong.
We should be ready for blowback from the right about this story.
They will claim that radical leftists have taken over the party. I probably can’t even imagine just how ridiculous they’ll get. But we should be ready for it.
P.S. Big Props to Lisa Meyers and NBC for the investigative reporting on the Trophy system and Pentagon chicanery.
See, Brian Ross and ABC, there are significant subjects to report on in lieu of the D.C. Madame. Because I, for one, don’t give a good gosh darn about sex scandals unless they involve the trading of state secrets–in which case higher crimes are involved–or they involve Dubya and Karl doing their version of Brokeback Mountain.
Keep up the good work, NBC and Lisa Meyers. [And pps, not that I’m cynical or anything…who owns the Trophy system…and who owns Raytheon?]
Loo Hoo @ 18
Woo Hoo Loo! Am right behind ya with some dough for MoveOn - sadly modest but it adds up and this post is young. ;~)
Still feeling the glow of the inspiring Mike Ferrel. Not all men will be boys and am so proud of our community here on da lake.
Pat9 @ 9
I am sure you won’t be happy with many of their answers, sadly. Hillary is pretty close to the HoJo wing of the party. They don’t wanna even given the hint of an appearance of weakness. It makes no sense of course, but it is what it is.
Just to add to my personal sense of outrage over the war, we still haven’t heard anything from our colleague from Iraq.
He was supposed to present his paper and nobody knows why he didn’t show up.
Such people can save about 300 babies a year. Hope he’s still alive.
My late mother was a Scot who came here from there in 1946 to be married to my father in Oklahoma. Waves Mom. They finally did it! I wish you could be here to see it.
The separatist Scottish National Party defeated Labor, emerging as Scotland’s biggest party in regional elections on May 3 and ending a half-century of Labor’s dominance there.
Does anyone know why Steny Hoyer and A***C have such a long and close relationship. Last year, 61% of Steny’s special intrest travel was paid by A***C. I know his district and it doesn’t add up.
12 U.S. soldiers and a journalist died today in Iraq.
2 U.S. soldiers were killed today by a member of the Afghan army.
Good evening Jane, and all you Firedogs
Evenin’ ALL.
Does anyone have a link to Reid’s complete quote: “…the war is lost”. I have to believe that was taken out of context. THX.
peris at 10 quotes Gingrich saying
Shorter Gingrich;
noen @ 25
Their crap is the least of our worries. If the Democratic Congress backs down now they will lose the fight. Period.
OFF TOPIC…KIND OF
Harold Ford on Bill Maher.
OK, I’m too old to stay up late on Friday night so I watched Real Time tonight.
AND HAROLD FORD IS AN ASSHOLE. (In the interests of full disclosure…I hated Harold Ford during the November, 2006 elections because of his full support of Holy Joe Lieberman and Lieberman’s support for Bush’s Folly).
But tonight, he confirmed my instincts. WHAT AN ASSHOLE.
There. I feel better – ‘cause what I always knew is/was true!
darkblack @ 21
well, I obviously agree with you but when newt punishes the standard barer for the party how much worse can it get?
everyone wants this president impeached, I might go so far as to say the only hope a republican candidate has for presidency is if he says this impeachment is the only solution as well
Agh. I have a problem with the article and the premise. Steny Hoyer and the Blue Dogs are NOT the Democratic Party; the grassroots folks and rank-and-file members ARE the Democratic Party. We’re the ones busting our *sses going door-to-door, canvassing, calling, working that 50-State Strategy to resuscitate the Democratic Party. We have not been separate from MoveOn or Democracy for America or Progressive Democrats of America; if anything, Steny Hoyer and the Blue Dogs have been shamelessly using those of us who are yellow dog, true blue Democrats for their own agendas.
As MoveOn’s Eli Pariser said, “We bought it, we own it, we’re taking it back.” This is OUR Democratic Party, which is and remains against an illegal war and an even more illegal occupation and the rash, undisciplined spending and incumbent profiteering spawned by this administration’s illegitimate agenda. I reject the subtext of the article that antiwar groups are somehow separate — hell no. WE ARE THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, representing the real majority of people in this country who want our troops home and out of a civil war that should never have been launched by American military action.
Hoyer and Blue Dogs can either lead, follow or get the f*ck out of our way. And that includes checking their party affiliation at the door, if necessary; we can find people to primary against them and we will win. A majority of Americans want out of this war — and we’ll get them people who’ll do the job.
Steve @ 31
military industrial complex?
It’s an outrage that Gingrich is still in the mix. Fascist pig.
Loo Hoo @ 20
This Lisa Myers story was also on Countdown and NBC Nightly News some time ago. Not sure there’s anything new about it, as I didn’t see this weekend’s airing. But there’s something a little suspicious about NBC continuing to flog it, given that their parent GE is a major Defense contractor competitor to Raytheon, the company that benefits from the US-only attitude of the procurers who seem not to like the Israeli system. I’ve previously wondered, when this story was raised around the Lake, about who makes the Israeli system.
Lou Costello — quote is definitely taken out of context…can’t remember the exact wording, but you should be able to find via google, the news tab. Paraphrasing, as long as Bush persists on this course, the war is lost.
Hey, thanks, Loo Hoo upthread.
Did anyone post about the nice props Christy got in the blogger column by Tim O’Brien in the Saturday Minneapolis Trib? You go, girl!
And then there’s Lieberman. Like a boil on the back of your neck. Still being allowed to caucus with the Democratic Party. Pisses me off big time!
SEAN PENN FLATLY STATES: “BUSH SHOULD BE IN JAIL”
I posted the best of the discussion by Rep. Harold Ford Jr., Garry Shandling and Sean Penn from Real Time With Bill Maher.
The idea of a “War On Terrorism”, WMD’s, the vote by Congress to give authorization to the President to use force against Iraq and the millions of young Muslim men who hate America are all discussed.
Enjoy FDLers!
JT
http://tinyurl.com/2kahwb
Prairie Sunshine @ 43
linky?
It seems to me that Steny Hoyer is to the right of his district, which mainly consists of majority-black Prince George’s County, MD, and has large numbers of lower-echelon federal government workers. It’s where I grew up.
Unfortunately, it’s really hard to knock off someone who is in the leadership. But I’d love to see a primary challenge. A strong progressive African-American candidate would be ideal.
perris @ 38
About that much worse…When that happens, I’ll begin to see daylight through the cracks in Republican message discipline, myself.
;>)
Frankly, I don’t think any of the current crop of $1.98 Beauty Show congeniality contestants on the Right side of the fence has the steel in the spine necessary for such a chop-block power move, however.
Count us in as part of the firestorm. -Jane Hamsher
Amen! and pass the ‘torches’…
LS @ 32
Of course, about that number got Rush absolutely livid about “Clinton’s War in Somalia” (Black Hawk Down). Fewer than that (8 deaths) were the source of the conservatives screaming about Carter’s failed Iranian Rescue Mission.
Just think what would have happened if 12 soldiers died in one day in Kosovo or Bosnia? Or if that had happened in a deployment to Rwanda? Or Haiti?
This war has had the equivalent of 170 Black Hawk Downs. Or nearly 380 “failed Iranian Desert Rescue” efforts.
Not a peep from the mouths of those who would become cataleptic with outrage if it was a Democrat who demanded this war.
i am totally PISSED.
i usually use the word peeved………cuz pissed is a cuss word.
introducing another thread while you have a guest?
TOTALLY RUDE
so totally rude.
are threads on an automatic timer and can’t be held off or what?
you have a guest of the caliber of Mike Farrell and you can’t hold off?
I am donating 20 bucks in support of his appearance here, but i have to tell ya, I used caps where appropriate in respect of his visit, and i am pissed that a thread interrupted him, when he was ready to stay and left because of it…….man oh man, get some sense.
what the hell?
selise @ 40
Possible,I guess. The Patuxent River Naval Air Station is huge economic factor in his district. I don’t see an obvious connection between Is***l and naval aviation, however.
Jane, you are so terrific. Thanks for winding us up as a new week gets underway.
I do not like the DLC and it follows I do not like the Chairman of the DLC Harold Ford. And as for the the Chair of the DLC’s American Dream Initiative, HRC? Well…
The three month funding with requirements that the administration report on progress followed by another vote on further funding is an excellent idea. I hope Nancy and Harry hold on and see it through.
darkblack @ 48
I just can’t see it happening either. But I’ve been wrong so many times… I suppose that anything is possible.
Prairie Sunshine, I’m a Google expert and the closest I get to a complete quote, I found on FauxNews and I’d like another source.
What’s wrong with that? I’d be proud if more Dems would stand up to reality like that. The war is over…the occupation…not so much.
Has anyone actually read the whole of the HR1591? I’m trying to download it now.
Firestormdoglake
Steve @ 52
my working hypothesis is that genuine concern for a certain ME country has been hijacked by people who make a lot of money by arms manufacturing and warmongering.
this hypothesis is still in the testing phase, however.
cal @ 55
No.
I like what Edwards proposed. Resubmit the whole bill. Make him veto it again, and make the repubs go on record against it yet again. Repeat as needed.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 54
w3rd
I don’t see any downside for the dems just saying no. No to funding any more of this madness. When 70% of the electorate wants our troops home, what are the political risks? I do not get it. I must be stupid.
reid said if we keep following the path bush is on the war is lost. that is a fair paraphrase.
moose @ 58
i only read parts (the bits about withdrawal)… in all three versions (house, senate and committee).
Loo Hoo @ 63
Count me in. I must be stupid too.
noen -
ya don’t say . . .
noen @ 61
Sounds like a plan…
Loo Hoo @ 63
Cut off the money. ;0)
Mr. Reid — when he said, in part: “As long as we follow the president’s path in Iraq, the war is lost. But there is still a chance to change course, and we must change course.”
“SEND IT BACK!” ~ J.Edwards/We the People
Joe Buck @ 47
Steny Hoyer is the 5th district which is basically Southern Maryland; about 30% African American. The 4th is PG county and part of Montgomery county. Albert Wynn is the Congressman and a real bad actor. He was nearly defeated in the primary by a good progressive. Maybe in ‘08.
dmac at 51
I should have looked in the book salon before I went down and announced the new thread (after gleefully stumbling into my third ‘zed’) - sorry!
Jay @ 68
We could even change it a little, just a little. Enough to make it a different bill. Claim we are trying to compromise but that Bush is the one not willing to. But never compromise on the time tables, never. Then watch it blow up in Bushs’ and the GOP’s faces. 70 percent is huge, just remember, 70 percent.
Just like with Vietnam. This anti-war thing is going to build and build. We are not going to go away. So listen up Dems. Don’t be left at the station. Get on board.
peterboy @ 70
That’s what I thought. I’d really like to hear him say that again…and again…and again.
Lou Costello @ 57
Try here
dmac at 4:50 pm
Please apologize to Jane. I know you meant well, but I take offense at you taking that tone with her.
Mike and you and everyone else are welcome to continue commenting back and forth on the prior thread. It happens all the time.
My guess is that Jane was trying to be polite to Mike and to let him know he did not have to remain if he did not want to. If you’ll reread her comments
“The only time limit is however long someone wants to stay. People will probably stay here yacking your ear off as long as you’re willing to do so.
But we really appreciate the time you took today to answer everyone’s questions. You and John Dean. It was wonderful.”
Again, you weren’t her when John Dean was. He set an endurance record. Long time FDLers understand that any comparison to John Dean wrt an FDL book salon is a very high compliment.
Mike and a lot of those who participate in the book salon are very generous with their time. We all appreciate it very much. With our additional energy we want to work together to do whatever we can do to help them sell their books.
selise @ 65
I think selise means this, perhaps.
It is fantastic that this group exists. I think we all need to look long view at the opposition.
A lot of us remember the long time it took to get out of Vietnam. And that was with a draft.
Even without college students being shot/maced/stabbed with bayonets as happened in the 1960s and 70s, the public has turned.
It was really only after the Winter Soldier hearings that we got much traction in the Vietnam war at home.
I think keeping the pressure on the Democrats, having a “coordinated campaign” against the war will work in the long run, but a lot more will die between now and the end of the summer, when I think the real end will be in sight.
dmac @ 51
I’ve been lurking here the last few months and love fdl the best of all the blogs, but I gotta agree on this. I was on Mike Farrell’s thread and couldn’t believe that a new post went up and people just left the discussion. Actually was kinda shocked at the rudeness and disrespect of it.
here’s the plan for democrats, they have to seize the high ground, they have to call traitors anyone that wants to let the president abuse our military for a war he made up in his own head
they HAVE to make it clear, this is NOT an American war it’s the president’s own war and the morons in the PNAC
the democrats have to POUND the people that made this “strategy” as MORONS with NO clue
they have to POUND the FACT that the president was TOLD by his HIGHEST experts, AND BY THE GENERALS THEMSELVES that invading Iraq WOULD HELP THE TERRORISTS
HE WAS INFORMED IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS GA DAMN IT and EVERYONE needs to POUND AND POUND AND POUND
this guy did this deliberately
the DEMOCRATS have to ATTACK the FOOLS that continue supporting this administrations “military strategy”
these idiots have DELIBERATELY stretched our military SO thin it’s ability is actually challenged BY A FRIGGIN MERCENARY CAMP that was NOTHING but a target range before THIS administration gave it BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of the assets OUR MILITARY NEEDED…gave this money to TALIBANGELICALS that call themselves BLACKWATER
WE, the DEMOCRATS have to get ANYONE WHO CALLS THEMSELVES A PATRIOT to get on board
this administration is DELIBERATELY destroying our military ability, our ability to defend ourselves and our ability to affect events around the world
noen @ 56
Only if…If…the powers that run the show decide that their kept boy and his minions are so bad for business that they are now deemed expendable.
This would be rather drastic, IMO, for it would mean that their business methodology would be seen as mutable, internally…The optics to move from Hot Tub Tom to Obamamania without visible alterations aren’t strong enough to weather increased public awareness and skepticism.
Obviously, one backup plan would be to switch support to safe, centrist, corporate-friendly types with the odd Right stalwart declaiming that they have now seen the light and have disavowed all things Bush to make things seem cosily bipartisan.
Play it safe, don’t make waves, wait until this accountability craze blows over…
Cate Cammerata @ 81
I disagree, FDL is big enough to have several threads going at once.
Lou Costello @ 34
http://mediamatters.org/items/200704200012
“During his April 19 press conference, Reid said that the Iraq war “is lost” and later stated that the day before, he had told President Bush “what he needed to hear” about the war. He then said that the only way the war could be won is “diplomatically, politically, and economically”:
REID: This war is lost, and that the surge is not accomplishing anything, as indicated by the extreme violence in Iraq yesterday…I was like the odd guy out yesterday at the White House, but I at least told him what he needed to hear, not what he wanted to hear. And more people have to start telling George Bush what he needs to hear, not what he wants to hear. I did that. My conscience is clear, because I believe the war, at this stage, can only be won diplomatically, politically, and economically .
In the subsequent Senate floor speech, Reid again said that the “war is lost” but reiterated his belief that there is a political solution to a stable and secure Iraq:
Mr. REID. Madam President, the White House has been telling America that Democrats are doing the wrong thing by calling for a change of course in Iraq. They say holding the Iraqi Government accountable is wrong. They say finding a political solution Iraq is wrong. They say redeploying troops out of a civil war is wrong. They have said even debating a strategy for changing course is dangerous, and many Senate Republicans have backed that up by blocking several of our attempts to debate this issue here on the Senate Floor….
Conditions in Iraq get worse by the day. Now we find ourselves policing another nation’s civil war. We are less secure from the many threats to our national security than we were when the war began. As long as we follow the President’s path in Iraq, the war is lost. But there is still a chance to change course and we must change course. No one wants us to succeed in the Middle East more than I do. But there must be a change of course. Our brave men and women overseas have passed every test with flying colors. They have earned our pride and our praise. More important, they deserve a strategy worthy of their sacrifice.
However most media outlets failed to provide the full context of Reid’s statements.The Los Angeles Times, The Washington Post, the Associated Press, and the following TV news programs ignored the portion of Reid’s statements in which he said that “the war, at this stage, can only be won diplomatically, politically, and economically”:
MSNBC’s Tucker Carlson said “you gotta give [Reid] credit for honesty” before showing the “war is lost” clip…”he sincerely believes it.” Fox News’ Brit Hume aired only the “war is lost” segment and then erroneously said “Harry Reid would LATER say that the war — on the Senate floor — the war is lost if the president doesn’t change course.” Hume added Reid’s “staff is contending that what he said there was-what we showed- was really surrounded by all these caveats. But, I NEVER heard him say that in that way,” dismissing the part of the press conference that they did not show. MSNBC’s Joe Scarborough asked Pat Buchanan: “[H]ave we lost the war? Is Harry Reid right?” Buchanan replied; “I take the man at his word. He believes the war is not winnable and the war is lost” totally ignoring Reid’s comments about “winning diplomatically, politically, and economically.” NBC’s Kelly O’Donnell aired “the war is lost” clip, and then offered the White House reaction to Reid. Later, co-host Natalie Morales referred to the WH response to “Reid’s declaration that the surge isn’t working and the war in Iraq is lost.” MSNBC’s Hardball, host Chris Matthews asked Rep. Artur Davis (D-AL): “Have we lost? Harry Reid, the Senate majority leader, the Democratic leader of the Senate, said today that we have lost the war in Iraq.”
ABC World News Charlie Gibson said Reid “told President Bush yesterday that he believes this war is lost and the surge is not accomplishing anything. Republicans call Reid’s remark evidence that Democrats have turned their backs on the troops.”
What about the anthrax?
Would another attack on US soil make reasonable people republican again?
Scares me.
john, as you know, i love you, i already wrote jane, with love, we have a good repoir already……….the things he was sayin should have gone on interrupted……….without someone going in and out of the auditorium opening the doors and creating an interruption……..things that were coming out of his mouth needed to be said and should have gone on interrupted…….same as a symphony. even when ‘pissed’ i am a humane individual. and cognizant of the situation at hand…………it was rude. and shouldn’t happen again.
Loo Hoo @ 86
not anymore, IF the democrats ATTACK the retardlicans for DIVERTING national security for the war this president made up in his own head
Loo Hoo @ 86
The anthrax came from a CIA lab at Langly, not Al Qaeda.
The administration has been hinting that the next terrorist attack could be a dirty bomb or along those lines. But in the end, who knows?
dmac at 5:16 pm
I am very very humbled you even know who I am.
I haven’t been commenting as much lately.
I am very grateful for your very kind words.
Regards, John
At last! Democratic backbone!
There’s also a role for something new called “crowdsource” Journalism:
This leader is a little bit misleading. This is actually an experiment in “crowdsourced journalism.” We have discussed “citizen journalism” here before– this is a variation on that idea. It would be like taking a vigorous thread of comments on FDL and re-writing the main page story. Some of our front page stories are already like that, being built on “h/t” from commenters and tips sent to the main writers.
Bob in HI
I really like the de-authorization idea. Not only does it challenge shrub’s war but it also challenges his idea of the unitary.
Eureka Springs @ 79
that’s a great link, Eureka Springs, thanks…. (all about how the mercenaries are affected (or not) by the proposed, and now vetoed, supplemental funding bill - a must read).
and here are the links to the various versions (including the final, vetoed, version) of hr1591.
all this might matter - as edwards (and possibly others?) are pushing for a re-submit.
p.s. please don’t quote this comment - it will drive the mods zig crazy. thx.
Please don’t tell me Harold Ford was “good” on Real Time!!! He was his normal pandering self. Did you see Sean Penn sit back and look at him in disbelief?
JT @ 45
I posted the best of the discussion by Rep. Harold Ford Jr., Garry Shandling and Sean Penn from Real Time With Bill Maher.
The idea of a “War On Terrorism”, WMD’s, the vote by Congress to give authorization to the President to use force against Iraq and the millions of young Muslim men who hate America are all discussed.
Enjoy FDLers!
JT
http://tinyurl.com/2kahwb
noen @ 84
He answered questions for quite sometime too!
oh crap, I’m second guessing Tom Matzzie (whom I respect and admire greatly)
Vegas and Ladbrokes both have big money on the Goopers turning on the Chimp sometime around mid to late August - CW being they will then have political cover after waiting a ‘respectful amount of time’ for The Surge to work -
so if I know this, surely this wonderful Anti War coalition knows it - so why wait for summer - why not commence Act II and call them on it now - and oh btw save a couple hundred more US Military lives and those of a couple thousand Iraqis ?!?!?
again, I am not banging on MoveOn, I’m just trying to understand the timing of their moves
Bob Schacht @ 91
I think we have “crowdsourced journalism”, it’s called TMPmuckraker.
This is the salient news story of the day:
LS @ 32
While the corporate media continues to report the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan as some purely American political sporting contest, the events on the ground in the middle east demonstrate otherwise, as our enemies continue to be infinitely more agile than our commander-in-chief and his war supporters could ever be.
Last months’ truck bombing in Diyala demonstrated a horribly feasible tactic for killing American troops deployed as per Petraeus’s much-heralded COIN plans, and the killing today of two American soldiers by one of our supposed Afghan allies demonstrates that we are in real danger of losing not one, but two wars simultaneously.
Supporting your troops means keeping them alive, first and foremost. The Bush plan for our troops is simply getting more of them killed, and the fools in the GOP would do well to consider Patton’s dictum: “no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country — he won it by making the other poor bastard die for his country”.
Our troops deserve better than Bush. As do we all…
Got a call from the DLC about donating money. I was polite but explained to the woman on the phone that I will never give another red cent to a faction of the party still hell bent on continuing the war in Iraq. I also told her that the DLC should understand 70% of this country is against the war and want us out of Iraq yesterday. There are plenty of wonderful people to throw my money at and the DLC shouldn’t bother calling me again. It would be futile.
Short leash works.
Reps are on board –maybe even veto over-ride on board– to end the war by fall, as they try to unhook their individual fates from Bush’s.
and i would like to add that i am not a ‘blowhard’ individual,i hate blowhards, quite meek in many ways, but we need to iron out a way to respect people who are willing to engage in a discussion, that we have invited, to not interrupt them when they are speaking…..hear them out as long as they are willing, and there was definitely an audience there willing to stay…that’s all i’m sayin’….book salon and howie’s blue america time is discussion, it ought to go on as long as it does….late night discussions go on much longer in a thread and don’t have a guest……….i’ve said my piece, i’m droppin it now. back to listening.
THX to everyone who helped me with the Reid quote. You see what one day away from the blogs will do to your idea of history. *wink
Give ‘em hell Harry…SEND IT BACK!
albert fall @ 100
the democratic strategy has to be to call anyone that doesn’t support the bill supporting our troops as unpatriotic
democrats have to take the patriotic highground with their plans and not defer that ground to the neo fascists who are anything BUT patriotic
Get on board the firestorm freedom train.
Traveling through our great homeland
Helping us to understand
What it means to be an American
Here comes that Freedom Train
Clear the way she’s coming through
Painted all red, white and blue
Making us feel proud and true
Here comes that Freedom Train
Chorus:
Freedom Train
That Freedom Train
That Freedom Train
That Freedom Train
Dozens of cities along the way
Hundreds came both night and day
To see the sights of yesterday
Aboard that Freedom Train
In the summer heat and the winter cold
People came both young and old
To hear the stories of liberty told
Aboard that Freedom Train
(Chorus)
Freedom for my sister and brother
Blind of race, creed or color
Bringing hope to one another
Here comes that Freedom Train
Rollin’ through the countryside
Loaded down with American pride
Spreading the message far and wide
Here comes that Freedom Train
(Chorus)
Traveling through our great homeland
Helping us to understand
What it means to be an American
Here comes that Freedom Train
SANS NEOCONS!!!
Cieran @ 98
well said.
off for late diner, see all later
albert fall @ 100
With a new improved neo-choke collar….)
noen @ 89
Right idea, wrong lab. The best bet is that it came from Ft Detrick, Md. The FBI has destroyed all of the samples so that it can never be proven. It would be a major problem if the US was proven to be still working on weapons grade Anthrax, in violation of the bio-weapons treaty.
perris @ 103
How often do they poll for Bush’s popularity numbers? I’m thinking that if his numbers fall much more below 28% we will get our veto proof majority.
And, one of Bush’s terrorists who can’t even come into our country anymore…had this to sing:
By Cat Stevens
Now I’ve been happy lately,
thinking about the good things to come
And I believe it could be,
something good has begun
Oh I’ve been smiling lately,
dreaming about the world as one
And I believe it could be,
some day it’s going to come
Cause out on the edge of darkness,
there rides a peace train
Oh peace train take this country,
come take me home again
Now I’ve been smiling lately,
thinking about the good things to come
And I believe it could be,
something good has begun
Oh peace train sounding louder
Glide on the peace train
Come on now peace train
Yes, peace train holy roller
Everyone jump upon the peace train
Come on now peace train
Get your bags together,
go bring your good friends too
Cause it’s getting nearer,
it soon will be with you
Now come and join the living,
it’s not so far from you
And it’s getting nearer,
soon it will all be true
Now I’ve been crying lately,
thinking about the world as it is
Why must we go on hating,
why can’t we live in bliss
Cause out on the edge of darkness,
there rides a peace train
Oh peace train take this country,
come take me home again
My 2 cents…I’m glad Jane started a new thread. I had nothing to say to Mike other than he was no Trapper John. *grin
And if HE wanted to stay, he could have always joined US here.
tw3k @ 105
and supporting our troops means bringing them home when their job is complete, our armed forces have completed their task, what’s left in Iraq is a political task, our armed forces are not builders of schools, they are not a private police force for one sect or another, our armed forces are not private escorts
they are the boys and girls, men and women who protect THIS nation and they are NOT toys for the administration and fascists in the PNAC to experiment with their moronic, depraved and meniacle military theories that only other morons would have hoped could work
tw3k @ 92
I think that Congress definitely needs to state quite clearly that the INTENT of Congress was limited to authorizing Bush to compel Saddam to Comply with the UN Resolutions on Sanctions and WMD’s…nothing more.
I’m not sure that this actually requires a de-authorization. Seems to me that the war was over when it was discovered that the WMD’s were bogus and the UN essentially ended sanctions on Iraq somewhere back when Bremer was “his Lordship”.
No Congressional Authorization for the use of force can be open-ended. There definitely needs to be some sort of statement of the intent of Congress regarding this resolution. If Bush exceeds that intent…he needs a new War Powers Resolution. Otherwise he is violating the law.
This can be done in parallel with a short-term funding authorization. Ironically, Congress need not include any “benchmarks” or schedules on this. They can simply leave that “blank” (ironically giving Bush his “compromise”) and simply say…we’ll take a look at what has happened in two months. Get back to us, George!
That would be even worse for Bush, IMO. He would have no ability to suggest that the Iraqi government met certain earmarks and deadlines or goals. Congress would be free to judge the progress of the war on their own criteria.
One more thing. Attach a requirement to the new bill that expenditures be paid through specified revenue (tax) increases to contractors that receive Iraq War funding from either the US or Iraqis. Throw in a tax on oil company profits. If this is not sufficient reimpose the tax on the top 10% of earners that Bush cut in 2001.
Use lots of florid language about those who benefit from the war economically needing to sacrifice as much as the troops and the future generations that will pay for the deficit.
dmac @ 51
Mike had a great time, he totally knew the ground rules up front and knew that he had an out (if he wanted) at 2 hours when another post went up. We don’t take people by surprise and let them know the’re welcome to hang around as long as they want and people want to chat. Often they lose track of time so I let them know either in a thread or behind the scenes. Frequently they’re tired and want to leave but don’t want to disappoint people so that’s why we do it, 2 hours can be a long time.
No disrespect given or taken, I assure you.
A BROADER AGENDA IN A BIGGER TENT!
We all want the war to end. That said, the singular focus of the Democrats on stopping a war they politically cannot stop is hurting the party, and stalling our broader agenda.
The only way this country can move forward after 2008 is if more Democrats are elected. Crashing the party into the rocks in 2007 with repeated attempts to stop a war that it can’t stop does the party no good.
We need to be realistic and smart with spending and aquiring political capital, with a sharper eye on our parties short- and long-term goals.
Steve @ 108
Ok, sorry about that.
Steve @ 108
Yeah and Isr*el doesn’t have nukes.
Cieran at 5:25 pm
Thanks for a very fine comment.
When Joe Wilson was at FDL, (December?) here were some of the the questions he wanted answered:
“Based on current US deployments to Iraq, what are the troop to task ratios and the force protection requirements?”
Here’s a high level summary of the Powell Doctrine of overwhelming force:
I wish the Democrats would use these “principles” to frame their criticism. Ask the identical questions that the military leaders were supposed to ask.
The emerging scenario, that Wilson so rightly feared, is that our troops will have to fight their way out.
LooHoo #86, I think you’ve asked an excellent question, and the answer should scare everyone that loves freedom. Gen. Tommy Franks is of the opinion that a WMD attack in the US would be the end of Constitutional Democracy, and I am sad to say I think he may be right. Link here.
tbsa @ 99
Should have asked for her supervisor! THEY might actually be able to say something to the DLC leadership about the “natives being restless”.
perris @ 112
tw3k @ 105
Cieran @ 98
Supporting your troops means keeping them alive, first and foremost.
well said.
and supporting our troops means bringing them home when their job is complete, our armed forces have completed their task, what’s left in Iraq is a political task, our armed forces are not builders of schools, they are not a private police force for one sect or another, our armed forces are not private escorts
they are the boys and girls, men and women who protect THIS nation and they are NOT toys for the administration and fascists in the PNAC to experiment with their moronic, depraved and meniacle military theories that only other morons would have hoped could work
I don’t disagree with you.
Steve @ 108, do have a link or two?
from krugman recently:
it’s our job to make sure congress knows that there are BIG political risks for backing down.
Loo Hoo @ 122
No, it’s an IIRC but the info is out there. The destruction of the bio-samples was within the last six months, IIRC. The Dem’s have also been very silent recently on this subject.
Jane, I think Mike really enjoyed his time here on FDL. He became more and more engaged as the hours went on, and there was actually discussion back and forth - we learned from him, and he learned from us (including how to negotiate comments :}). I think he’ll be back to read what’s going on here.
P.S. Jeremy Scahill would be an enlightening guest, I think…just hoping :)
Cieran @ 98
Supporting our troops means not starting a war of aggression in the first place. When we are confronted with the “You are not supporting our troops” meme we should counter:
“The very first responsibility of the commander in chief should have been not to engage in a war of choice to begin with. To do so with no thought of the lives they will lay down in service disrespects the armed forces at the most fundamental level. To throw away the lives of our servicemen on a miss guided war based on lies is unpatriotic and possibly even treasonous.”
Suzanne and egregious - you have mail.
dmac @ 51
This is more a commentary on the herd mentality of FDL than when a new thread should go up.
Why do we all have to act like a herd? Why not have more than one thread active at a time? If we have a good thread going on one subject, those who are interested in it should stay put, as long as the conversation lasts.
I have seen some good threads die because a new thread was posted upstairs. A custom has evolved whereby the person who gets the “zed” on the next thread is supposed to go downstairs on the previous thread to tell everyone that a new thread is up. I personally think that is a bad custom and should cease.
So I don’t necessarily think it is rude for the new thread to be posted, but I think is rude for everyone to switch to the new thread just because there is a new thread up. Why should we have to wait for a new thread until the old one is “finished”? With as many readers as we have, interest in the current thread will vary, and some firepups will be ready for a new thread before others, who remain interested in the current subject. How are the moderators to know when to switch? (I agree that when we have a guest, a different protocol applies.)
C’mon, Firepups, FDL is now big enough for multiplex. We don’t need to be a one-stage show any more.
Bob in HI
I think Stephen Colbert should be compensated for having his act stolen by the Bush Administration.
The latest howler was that the Justice Department can be guided by unwritten rules.
That is comedy genius.
-GSD
so, even in my ‘disgusted state’, i hit the tip jar…….anybody else?
unless you have registered to vote, you don’t have the right to complain about the government…
i only feel the urge to bitch about every once in 6 months……just so ya know. so i have……..back to being sunny.
good news..dem gov in ohio passed budget—-97-0
deals made, but stilll good thing to be had by all overall……..good things can come, keep your electorate infomed and registered to vote.
seconded !
as far as a new post when there is a discussion going on with a guest author
it’s made clear to the authors who guest post here at the lake of firedogs that often a new post often goes up right when their conversation gets hot.
those are the ground rules now let’s move on
How soon before Sascha Baron Cohen perfects his Nick Sarkozy impression?
-GSD
I threw in half a Benjamin on Friday.
For LS… and everyone.
http://www.crooksandliars.com/.....t-stevens/
dmac @ 130
Actually, I think you do have that right even if you haven’t voted.
Some good suggestions here. I’m calling my senators again tomorrow. Any ideas for a more concerted action?
Wasn’t the hanging of Sadaam Hussein the most perverted thing? Was it really the Iraqis staging that?
JML @ 137
Torches and pitchforks? Maybe some tar, feathers and a rail?
;)
So put yourself in the Republican spin machine mind. How do you spin that the Christian community in Iraq is fleeing in fear.
Seeing as the Devil Himself, Saddam allowed an Iraqi Chrisitian community to live under his rule.
Christian exodus.
-GSD
Loo Hoo @ 138
It was probably Cheney and Gonzales on a weekend jag.
-GSD
cinnamonape @ 113
I agree with that. My impression was it was open ended. Shows how much I know.
Are you a congress critter?
jane at 114
i know that, oh jane i know you wouldn’t do that on purpose…….but it was rude, and it did happen, and something should be done to avoid it in the future, you all are getting ‘bigger and better’ guests, so some thought should be shown to it……..i know it’s a new thing, just sayin’ what i felt about it………hard to do, but i did……love you, you know that, i’m your girl when you need something, even the hard things.
A few weeks ago a poster here at the lake proposed the short leash option, only it was for 2 months at a time with full accountability, including for the mercenary forces. I liked that proposal a lot. The 3 months at a time might be okay (although 0 months would be best), but it should have some reporting requirements or benchmarks for renewal.
On HuffPo Gov Bill Richardson also proposes de-authorizing the Iraq war under the War Powers Act, but I also read somewhere that rescinding the October 2002 authorization to use force was of questionable legality. I would love to hear from some of the lawyers their opinion of that.
From Juan Cole:
It took the 175 days for an Iraqi government to be formed after the Dec. 15, 2005 elections even as the civil war was really taking off.
There is and has been a fatal disconnect between the Bush Administration’s plans for Iraq and Iraqi politics, between American timelines and Iraqi ones. The Bush-Petraeus “surge” will fail for many reasons but this is certainly one of them. We don’t listen to the Iraqis and the Iraqis don’t listen to us. The result is a dialogue of the deaf.
GSD @ 129
No doubt, unwritten by the Unseen Hand.
;>)
Steve @ 124
Quick find from 2001. Anthrax probe hampered by FBI blunders
Subpeona Powell!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 135
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Digby and Josh have commented on this.
We can win this pushback but we’ll need to change the language, If any Democrat discusses “winning, retreat, losing” then they are buying into the talk of the opposition. This has NOTHING to do with that. Yglesias raps the zero sum nonsense of the opposition.
Any journo that asks that question needs to be put into their place. Simply put. “don’t you dare ask me or our nation that question, you know this is not about that. You were an enabler of a lie that has killed over 3000 Americans and countless Iraqis - you need to get with atonement. Your job is to inform. Inform Americans about the total lack of a functioning government. Inform Americans about the oil rip-off. Inform Americans about the real toll on the troops and their families. Today, twelve MORE soldiers dead. What’s your headline?”
This war is over. This is a question of the fate of the occupation and the civil war we have allowed. The fate of a distopian neo-colonial “vision”. The fate of the “birth pangs” of completely discredited ideology.
Attention everyone – these people are fighting for their right to live and believe as they choose. Don’t ever forget it –it’s a powerful thing that we once knew ourselves.
When talk turns to “Oh my, what will happen if we leave? What about the bloodbath?” Well, I really admire your late-in-the-day concern. But maybe the locals can act on this with a level of action and expertise beyond what we’ll bring in a thousand years. Turn your twisted concern and ask how many hundreds of options there are to stopping this complete crap.
I have listened to the recent Dem language and it won’t cut it. It actually needs to be tougher, angrier, and a lot more in your face. Feingold gets it, the rest need to.
Angry is what we need to be and should be. Thirty seven years ago – four dead in Ohio. Today, twelve in Iraq. You bet we’re still pushing back.
Ssshhhhhh! Here they come!
Everybody act natural!
Is it Ms. D?…yeah, ssshhhhh!
Is the Headmistress with her?…yes, ssshhhhh!, can you please be quiet?
Oh radio, you’re gonna get it now…
Ssshhhhhh!
GSD @ 140
Lizard brains can rationalize anything. How about,”Who gives a shit if they are Christians; they are still Aarabs” or “It’s an evacuation of Christians before we nuke the mooslims.”
I had to dig this up in the Internet Archive: The Message in the Anthrax ~ Mucho info.
Eureka Springs at 79
Thanks, that’s the issue. Strange, I tried to download the primary source pdf and it was taking forever. Went to an alternate link and got it.
I don’t know which is scarier — the potential of still having 60,000 US military in Iraq or the Blackwater army.
noen @ 89
I think that this is another meme put out there to muddy the waters. The FBI had “their suspect”…some guy named Hatfill…and was using leaks to “build their case”. Maybe they thought someone would come forward and say that Hatfill did it…
But it now turns out that the spores were not “weaponized” at all…and that the variety of anthrax used was so widespred that it could have been made in just about any bacteriology, toxicology or molecular biology lab by someone with basic training.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....01014.html
http://www.nysun.com/article/42249?access=248077
Now you’re talking, Jane…
tw3k @ 92
tw3k - Same here, for the same reasons, and another: as I understand it, Congress actually managed in 1970 (after trying for years for a veto-proof majority) to revoke its Gulf of Tonkin resolution that had nominally authorized the violence in Vietnam, but President Nixon then proceeded (after signing the de-authorization) to ignore that revocation of Congressional authority and kept our Armed Forces in Vietnam for another 2 and 1/2 years… [citing the Executive Branch’s “inherent authority” to protect us from all those vicious terr-, er, communists…] That’s stunningly unConstitutional Executive Branch behavior (above and beyond Watergate). [McGovern and Hatfield filed a bill to end the funding for the war (to be phased in over more than a year) shortly after the deauthorization passed in 1970, but that bill didn’t pass Congress.]
Congress subsequently passed the War Powers Act, and yet, here we are again, facing the same conundrum of a warmongering Executive Branch unwilling to “heel” to the expressed will of the people whom the President is pretending to “protect” by using their money and their lives to fight in a foreign land.
Thus, we need to get this settled once and for all: do we have a military dictator in the form of a “President” who gets to unilaterally decide about “imminent threats” that last for years, and thereby defy the will of the Legislative Branch by deploying our ever more powerful Armed Forces around the world, or don’t we? Is the President the civilian “Commander in Chief” only when Congress authorizes military conflict (and in Congress’s stead when time is of the essence), as our Founders intended, or is he a “self-activating” civilian Commander in Chief? The people of this country need to decide whether they still honor and value their Constitution, or not.
We ducked this issue, by and large, in 1970, and our Constitutional form of government was badly wounded as a result, helping to usher in the travesty that is our occupation of Iraq today. The deauthorization proposal shines a bright spotlight on this usurpation of Congressional authority - a spotlight that is sorely needed, in my opinion, to right our ship of state.
[I left a long comment quoting expert testimony that buttresses the Byrd/Clinton deauthorization proposal at the end of Taylor’s Rand Beers/Iraq thread yesterday.]
In case anyone is interested there is a new thread. Please do not take this polite announcement as an insult to the wonderful conversation now taking place.. I for one often watch a thread for 24 hours or more.
I am pro choice and I post….)
cinnamonape @ 155
I think that this is another meme put out there to muddy the waters. The FBI had “their suspect”…some guy named Hatfill…and was using leaks to “build their case”. Maybe they thought someone would come forward and say that Hatfill did it…
But it now turns out that the spores were not “weaponized” at all…and that the variety of anthrax used was so widespred that it could have been made in just about any bacteriology, toxicology or molecular biology lab by someone with basic training
Which is probably complete bullshit. The Anthrax was so deadly because it was weaponized. I think they know exactly where it came from and probably who did it or have narrowed it down to a few people. If it is a “new” weaponized strain developed at Ft Detrick, the treaty violation would be huge. I think that investigation is done…and with all samples destroyed it can now never be proven with certainty.
*click*
the door opens and in glide the teacher, Ms. D, and the Headmistress.
*Waaaah, waaaaah, waaaaah, radio, waaaaah, waaaaah, detention.*
heh, heh, don’t forget your bookbag.
heh, will you do my homework for me? heh
They look mad to me - I still think you’re gonna get it…
tw3k @ 142
Heck No! Wrong coast! IANAL Even…but I wish I was writing up the drafts of those bills. They’d have the Pugs going crazy!
“Well they have pulled out the schedules…but it’s only for two months. Do we insist that we allow a full year open-ended expense account?”
“And then they have the bill paid for by tax increases on contractors that make profits from the war and oil companies! If we insist on THAT being pulled out it makes us look like tools and that the war was simply for profiteers to get rich. It makes us look like we are stiffing the average taxpayer while others get rich on death. How do we handle THAT!”
“If we vote against this it makes it look like WE are the ones stiffing the troops…the money is there…and there are no requirements in the bill. Boo-hoo! We’re shafted!”
EPU zone- I need 4 more names for a graphics project- current biggest “teeth” supporting/ surpassing (?) Bush’s fight– my old list is out of date. I have Condi, Cheney, Rove, Abu, Liebermann (in no particular order). I need 4 more. Anyone have short list at hand? Thx. VG
Eureka!
darkblack @ 146
That brings to mind a famous quotation from the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam:
“The moving finger writes; and having writ, moves on…”
funny ((((eureka)))) you get it.
Eureka Springs @ 157
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
And for anyone still interested in the anthrax info…AnthraxInvestigation dot Com
Valley Girl!
Don’t forget Rummy
noen @ 136
Even if Plymouth Rock landed on you?
John Casper @ 118
And I wish Powell had stood by his principles.
It’s not even possible that he was fed info from a very select group, is it?
Steve @ 158
Lots of people were exposed to the Anthrax, only a few even became ill with this exposure. and a handful died. It was purified bacillus, but hardly the type that would kill hundreds if released into the environment. This stuff was sent through the public mail without any sort of special seals or packaging…
That’s not weaponized.
Eureka Springs @ 166
He was there in the previous version, of course. (Also had Scnotty, DeLay, Abramoff and Reid). I was trying to bring things up to date. But maybe he’s still important enough to include.
(edit: Reid-= Ralph Reid.)
radio, stop swinging your feet when I’m talking to you!, Ms. D says. That’s what this is all about - manners - the manners one needs to get along well with others - but, try as I might, I just can’t get through to you.
Now, tell the Headmistress what you did? Go on…start with what you were doing when my class was running over time.
where is the movement to punish bush and entire bushliar-criminal regime? The US can never be righted if the lying theiving criminals are not put behind bars for their crimes.
.
radiofreewill at 6:22 pm and above.
ROFLMAO.
radiofreewill at 71
Now, tell the Headmistress what you did? Go on…start with what you were doing when my class was running over time.
am absolutely ROFL……….even my kitties and dog are lookin at me strange, cracking up……………oh thank you……….back to normal now. oh my god…….cracking up; laughing, oh thank you.
Radio!!! I am speaking to you. What did you do with the note? I saw you pass a note, and I want it now! What? You don’t recall a note? Give me the note now, or else! What do you mean you don’t recall, I saw you pass the note!! Why I oughta…’
Thaaat’s it. You are under detention for not recalling the note I saw you pass!! In fact, you are suspended…what? What do you mean I can’t suspend you? In fact, Radio, you are expelled!!! What do you mean I can’t do that? You’re calling who??? I’ll lose my job? What…okay, then just get the hell outta here before I change my mind….
Lou Costello @ 165
Actually this guy makes a lot of sense! He’s quite cautious and seems to have a reasonable hypothesis.
pow wow @ 156
Thanks for the background. My history is lacking.
I think that is well put. I see all of the current war, scandals, and corruption emanating from the that same point, the inherent authority.
I’ll go back and read Rand’s thread again. Thx!
Thanks RonD and Lou Costello!
moose @ 154
Blackwater scares me. Why are we using tax money to support a private militia?
Steve @ 108
1961, when I was in the U.S. Army working out of Building T-7, not far from the Pentagon … from time to time, this proto-neocon suit would stop in. Spooky little guy, name doesn’t matter, probably was false, anyway. We reckoned his nickname should have been “loose lips” …
This particular day, he almost dances with joy, telling us he’s just been to Ft. Detrick. “Wow, we’ve now got a modified anthrax that will go through any known filter. Let those commie bastids hide in their bomb shelters, we’ll still get em.”
It was another bizarro world then. At Christmas time, I drove by a swimming pool company that’d fallen on hard times. Their second product line was prfab bomb shelters. And leaning on these steel cylinders were … Christmas trees.
“the past is a foreign country. They do things differently there.”
cinnamonape @ 160
Heh, welp, I like the sounds of that for act one. Yank the unitary for act two and heads exploding for act three :)
Valley Girl @ 170
Ralph Reed? ; )
Coz- yes. Reed. Realized that later.
Steve @ 158
They were traced to public mail boxes in Princeton, New Jersey. The heart of the ‘pharmaceutical corridor’. Whoever did it had a pharm/bio background, IMO.
tw3k, cinnamonape, and others about de-authorization,
what I don’t get is whatever happened to Congress having the power to declare war? Clearly the founders had someone just like Shrub in mind when they wrote that part into the Constitution. What happened to it?
I don’t know Why The Fuck the Dems are afraid to impeach Mister 28% Bush?!
Maybe BushCo hasn’t violated any Constitutional Principles that the Dems hold dear. Hmmmmm??????
Bob in HI@128
“This is more a commentary on the herd mentality of FDL than when a new thread should go up.
Why do we all have to act like a herd? Why not have more than one thread active at a time? If we have a good thread going on one subject, those who are interested in it should stay put, as long as the conversation lasts.
I have seen some good threads die because a new thread was posted upstairs. A custom has evolved whereby the person who gets the “zed” on the next thread is supposed to go downstairs on the previous thread to tell everyone that a new thread is up. I personally think that is a bad custom and should cease.
So I don’t necessarily think it is rude for the new thread to be posted, but I think is rude for everyone to switch to the new thread just because there is a new thread up. Why should we have to wait for a new thread until the old one is “finished”? With as many readers as we have, interest in the current thread will vary, and some firepups will be ready for a new thread before others, who remain interested in the current subject. How are the moderators to know when to switch? (I agree that when we have a guest, a different protocol applies.)
C’mon, Firepups, FDL is now big enough for multiplex. We don’t need to be a one-stage show any more.”
Yeah! What he said.
pow wow @ 156
Yup, I recall it now. I kinda skimed it at first and didn’t follow the link. Good summary, Thanks.
IANAL but I like that idea and I think congress should de-authorize both amuf.
Ms. D has her arms folded now, striking a pose of utter disdain in my general direction. I know I’m supposed to feel bad, but she’s so adorable when she’s upset…
Radio! Tell the Headmistress what happened down-thread…that, that car wreck that crashed in on the - going rather well, I should say - Book Salon with Mike Farrell.
The shame kept me from looking up at Ms. D, but somehow I knew she still liked me. Now however, was the moment of Truth - I couldn’t avoid it any more - turning my head ever-so-slowly, I strained to see out of the corner of my eye…
rxbusa @ 185
Read that comment that pow wow posted. And there is a lot more commentary by following the link within post.
As i understand it, semantics aside, congress did declare war by allow shrub to use military force. To my mind it boils down to netroots activity and the 50 state strategy to get congress inline with the people. I’m sure sharper wits with more informed ideas has other opinions but thats my basic take on things.
radiofreewill @ 189
lol, u goofy tonight.
Do you have an active peace group in your area? Join their actions. Does your Congressperson or Senator have an office in your town? Make a sign and go stand outside it during your lunch break. Your presence will certainly be noticed by the staff. Email and call your elected officials ad nauseum. Remember to always be polite. Make a sign and go stand at a busy intersection one day a week. You might be alone the first couple of times but soon you’ll have like-minded company. Two or three people with signs will be seen by probably a thousand people in a couple of hours. It’s not as scary as you may think. I’ve been out there so long (since before this nonsense started) that now I just laugh when fenderheads say stupid or obscene stuff, and I’ve been called everything but a white man. Besides, my Daddy told me to never argue with a fool. Don’t rely on the big anti-war groups to carry the message. Every voice counts. Now, have a snort of some really good single-malt Scotch, get out your poster board and start writin’. In BIG letters. Keep it short and simple (KISS). We had a true blue old style communist who had these long creeds hand printed on his series of poster boards. You had to stand there and read through them. Too funny. If you do go protesting make sure you visit the ACLU’s website and read very carefully the Rights of Protesters and what to do if confronted by law enforcement. Local offices have copies of both.
Thanks for the post, Jane. We may have 70% of the public behind us, but we need them in the streets as well. Little knots of people everywhere, every day cannot be ignored for long.
Never give up.
rxbusa @ 185 -
In no particular order:
“John Wayne” and Hollywood/advertising propaganda and myths on TV and in the movies about the “macho” man? World War II’s “good fight?” FDR’s long and good faith Executive Branch tenure? The remnants of the Nazis working for the new CIA/DOD? The entrenched Two-and-ONLY-Two Party System which results in Congress deferring and ceding its power to the shared political party in the Executive Branch? The military industrial complex? An unscrupulous President who went far beyond the outer limits of Constitutional power, and mostly got away with it (Nixon)?
In short: the slippery slope human nature (and Congress) craves known as the path of least resistance when faced with popular approval for Hollywood and advertising-created myths of heroic militarism. In general, it probably has a lot to do with the quality of the underlying society in America today, such as that represented on our television screens, in our (toxic) high schools, and by cutthroat corporate raider Wall Street ethics, etc., etc. Commercial television seems to have an awful lot to do with it, in many different ways.
The War Powers Resolution of 1973 pretended to - and on the surface intended to, post-Vietnam - limit Presidential power in accordance with the Constitution, but in fact it created the first (likely unConstitutional) Executive Branch authority to use our Armed Forces anywhere in the world for at least 90 days without Congressional approval. President Clinton exploited its loopholes in using our military in Bosnia, and we’ve been paying the price in many ways for the poorly-drafted and unwise provisions of the WPResolution ever since it was passed over Nixon’s veto. It’s way past time for some stronger medicine to firewall the Constitutional power to declare war inside the Legislative Branch and to provide an easier way to end authorized conflicts when their original purpose is no longer in evidence, especially when the Commander in Chief is having too much “fun” playing soldier to pay attention to the people who are paying the price for his reckless and bad faith behavior.
[Thanks, tw3k - I remember you read that long comment the first time around - you’re due overtime pay!]
a million things flew through my mind and time slowed down…
Was I going to rat out my classmates? After all, they were covertly reading their pda’s and internet tablets out of sight - just like me. No, no, that would be missing the point…
Terrified that I didn’t have a good story to tell, I suddenly looked right at the Headmistress - but rather than being upset with me, she was calm and strong, and radiating understanding.
Without mentioning the ‘new thread’ note that had passed by me, I pre-emptively blurted out -
I was expecting a really important text message from my *cough* doctor when I hit the wrong hot-key on my pda. I couldn’t believe it…the internet popped up and there it was - FDL - my homepage, what can I say?
I go on - At that point (feeling inspired that I haven’t been called out,) I noticed there was a ‘new thread’ above the Mike Farrell article and I think to myself ‘I wonder what the article says?’
radio? says Ms. D.
Okay, I wondered if I could get the zed.
So, I went right for the comments and saw the glorious 0 Comments red cape waving right at me and I typed in the classic interrogative ‘zed?’
And? said the Headmistress.
Well, I got it, of course. I mean lolo’s been beating everybody lately and…
radio!
Okay, after a while I noticed nobody was on the new thread and it *hit* me - how rude of me! I’m supposed to tell the old thread that there’s a new thread (sitting up straight and trying to look responsible.) So, that’s what I did - I went and let everyone know.
Up to this point, Ms. D and the Headmistress have yawned their way through my story - but now, with interest, they both lean in expectantly.
I gulp and say, my mistake was in not seeing that the Book Salon - which can go long, as can Blue America - was still active and shouldn’t have been interrupted. I mean, its how I would feel if someone put static in my toobz, you know what I mean? I should have been more thoughtful.
Broad grins grew across the faces of Ms. D and the Headmistress.
radio, said the Headmistress in a moment of Zen awareness, learn the ways of the Lake and you can revel in them artistically with a free spirit.
puzzled but trying hard not to show it, I realize I’m almost out of this jam. Pulling my bookbag over my shoulder and backing towards the door, I say can I go now? I’m missing Late Nite.
I back out and close the door quietly, like it’s made of crystal, and let out a deep breath - so this is Firedoglake…
Loo Hoo @ 63
The “American Dream” of NeoCons, Republicans and DLC Dems is clearly NOT the same as the general public or of firepups. But, they are in power and continue to hoodwink the public into voting for them. And, apparently if that doesn’t work, they’ll rig elections. I wonder if Sarkozy stole his election in France too. I vaguely recall reading that they used ES&S electronic voting systems.
We pressure them. If they don’t respond to give us what we want, then we challenge them with OUR candidates in elections.
Good to hear moveon.org is looking at taking a more aggressive stand, but I’m afraid I’ll want to see some action there before I believe it. It was just a couple of weeks ago that they were saying the focus ought to be on 2008 Republican races instead of the mess the Democrats are making today.
Let’s not put all the blame on Steny Hoyer, either. Good old Hillary Clinton’s plan to wait until October and then debate a new war resolution means giving Bush everything he wants between now and September. It would be a complete cave.
the morning after-
ok, ok, i erupted in the middle of a thread, which was also rude……coulda handled it differently……..shoulda/coulda written my concerns privately……but didn’t think about that at the time.
lately it was buggin’ me that a few people have been pushy and rude, and dismissive toward others (not toward me, thankfully, but it bugged me)
adddddddd to that a few st. pauli girls and you get ===
issue + emotions + beer = foot/keyboard in mouth.
keep mouth shut, think about it, then act, is usually how i handle that one
PROBABLY won’t happen again………and i did donate money this am to back up my mouth. my apologies.
and radio-you’re hilarious, thanks for humoring me, really was rofl, then went to bed.
oh dmac - you’re such a good sport! imvho, it’s *genuineness* like yours that makes the Lake a great place! *g*
c u,
radio