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There are disturbing stories out of Iraq every day, but this one is more alarming than most. It's called an "honor killing," which isn't anything new, but is still terribly disconcerting.
A 17-year-old girl has been stoned to death in Iraq because she loved a teenage boy of the wrong religion.
As a horrifying video of the stoning went out on the Internet, the British arm of Amnesty International condemned the death of Du’a Khalil Aswad as "an abhorrent murder" and demanded that her killers be brought to justice.
Reports from Iraq said a local security force witnessed the incident, but did nothing to try to stop it. Now her boyfriend is in hiding in fear for his life. ... ..
The moment a teenage girl was stoned to death for loving the wrong boy
We've really made a mess out of things in Iraq, but still Mr. Bush is determined to escalate. McClatchy's round up of violence will make you wince, as well Juan Cole's contribution today. Amidst efforts to stop the war, as Democrats and Republicans try to come to an agreement and a bill Bush will sign, Clinton and Bryd's idea about deauthorizing the war is another front on which to push the president. It may end up in court, but it's still an idea worth supporting.
So today's event should be interesting. Thanks to Jane and Christy for giving me an earlier slot so Rand Beers, president of National Security Network, could join us, as well as Howie for inviting me in to sub for him today. (As if anyone can ever sub for Howie Klein!) Rand will join me for about a 15 minute live broadcast interview (link at the top of this post), which will stream online starting at around 12:05 pacific - 3:05 eastern. The link at the top of this post will go live just after the top of the hour. Afterwards, I'll offer the interview in a podcast. After the live broadcast, Rand will join the FDL community in the comment section to take questions about Iraq. Update: We had tech troubles, so Rand and I weren't able to connect.
Hope you can tune in, then chat with us today.
- Taylor Marsh LIVE! can be heard from 3-4 pm eastern - 12-1 p.m pacific, Mon.-Thurs, with podcasts available.
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☼ZeD
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Welcome Taylor!
♥lOvE teh ZeD
Happy Cinco de Mayo Firepups!
Now to read welcome Taylor!
He’s on! He’s coming out of the right channel, and needs to come up 5 dBs!
Hey all. Sorry for the tech glitches today. But let’s get going…
So a question for you, Rand. What do you make of the Iraq conference that just ended?
hello? anyone here?
Hello, All!
Hey ghostman. We’re here!
tommy yum @ 7
Taylor Marsh @ 8
a necessary step, but short on results. knowing that it was going to occur, rice should have laid the groundwork to make something happen
Ok, cool. A question for Mr. Beers: what do you make of the reports that we are having success with the Bedouin tribes out in Anbar?
Ghostman
But Rice didn’t talk to Iran. Tell us about the interesting news out of that hand off to underlings.
I’m out of the loop - been out in the garden - a quick synopsis of conference?
The story in today’s Washington Post about Iraqi doctors being held prisoner by their own government reminds me of a tactic that the Vietcong used. They would send trucks laden with supplies down the Ho Chi Minh trail.
To make sure that the drivers didn’t bail if there was an American bombing raid,
the V.C. would chain them to the steering wheels.
Seems that Mr. al-Maliki knows his history.
rand beers @ 12
Rice never does which is why nothing happens whether it is Iraq, Israel-Palestine, Iran, Syria, or Lebanon.
Ghostman @ 13
i think that we have be at this for a long time and the results remain slim. the administration points to it because they have so little to point to. if it were really a success then they should have been able to shut down al qaeda by now.
Conference:
From your website -
Very Nice!!
Taylor Marsh @ 14
that’s right. only the ambassador and the state dept. coordinator talked to iranians. not a good start. someone reported this week that the state dept. was told by the iranians that there foreign minister wasn’t plugged in enough to talk to. Go figure.
Hi Rand,
Did you ever hear that they were considering installing Tariq Aziz later as a “strong man” if Maliki doesn’t cooperate? Tom Hayden was floating that around a while back.
Honestly, how “plugged in” do you have to be to get talks started where none existed before?
Kathryn in MA @ 15
a meeting of neighboring states and other arab countries to talk about stabilizing iraq and forgiving iraq’s debts to them. some forgiving, not much else resulted.
Taylor Marsh @ 19
aaack! Bush - never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
What countries attended?
Some media outlets are touting that insurgents and Al Qaeda in Anbar are “retreating.” Have you heard anything about this?
LS @ 22
have not heard that and it would be a horrible admission of failure if it happened, but then iraq is a failure. the name i hear is allawi, the first PM coming back
rand beers @ 18
Isn’t it also the case that al Qaeda insurgent tensions have more to do with it than us? It seems to be this is another example of competing narratives. If something happens in Iraq the WH and media ascribe it to American actions whereas it often has more to do with internal Iraqi politics. The Mahdi Army keeping a low profile in Baghdad saving their strength and reducing death squad killings only so long as the focus of the US surge remains on the Sunnis.
and who initiated the congress? Major blessings and more power to them.
Taylor Marsh @ 23
EXACTLY. you have to start. and it doesn’t matter where. that’s diplomacy 101, but these guys and girls don’t get it.
The accompanying commentary with the pictures from the link ironically (or not so) says that (paraphrasing) “it’s a shame that there is not a leader who can tame all these factions…”
Yeah. What a shame that for some reason Rummy’s BFF Saddam somehow earned the ire of the Neocons (did he forget to pay a CheneyBurton bill on time?), and became the target of the Oedipal Boy-Emperor of Fantasyland-on-the-Potomac.
This war is no longer about any formerly stated purpose or even “Supporting the Troops” if indeed it ever was; it’s become about protecting Bunnypants The Commander Guy from yet another humiliating failure in a lifetime of humiliating failures.
Or Something.
Hugh @ 28
you’re right. this administration continues to believe that its actions are the driver, when, in fact the forces unleashed by the invasion are swirling far beyond our ability to control them. we are a target not a driver, but bush doesn’t understand.
If you don’t mind talking a little politics, what do you think about the veto and what needs to come next from Congress?
Kathryn in MA @ 29
the iraqi initiated it because the administration did not want to be seen as inviting syria and iran to a meeting.
Rand, have you heard anything about the Democrats caving in on timetables for Iraq bill? I would cut them some slack if they issued a public statement that said they felt they were dealing with an irrational GOP but they had to prevent GWB from holding up funding the troops. sort of a public congressional signing statement if you will. What do you think will happen?
Mr Beers, what’s the thinking/sentiment of the Iraqi’s on being allowed to split the country into the pre-Brit imposed “Iraq”? Is there any way to guarantee a split of oil revenues and leave the rest to be worked out by the respective Shia, Sunni and Kurdish governments? How would Iran and Turkey view the formation of an autonomous Kurdish government? (Not well I would assume?)
Do the Iraqi’s understand that eventually the bush admin will be gone?
Taylor Marsh @ 33
the veto is bush trying to hold back a political tsunami that was manifested in the 06 election. congress has to come back on the supplemental with a meaningful response, benchmarks with consequences like less money for the iraqis, and readiness requirements that require the president to waive them publicly in order to send more troops so that more citizens realize the lengths he is prepared to go to to protect his legacy. i also hope that they only give him part of the money so that we have to go thru this again in several months. and i hope we also see th same kind in timelines in other relevant pieces of legislation, like the defense appropriations bill
chuck cullen @ 35
i think they will take the timelines out and put them forward again in the defense appropriations bill
The president has four months until the showdown at the OK Corral on progress of the surge. If there’s nothin to show- he’s dead in the water.
What will he do to create some perceived progress? Will it be enough to buy him more time? What’s plan B?
rand beers @ 37
There are evidently two sides in the House right now, as far as I know. The Murtha side versus the Hoyer side. Murtha wants to do exactly as you suggest, Rand, while Hoyer seems to be telegraphing Dems should cave and give Bush 100% of the money, which I, too, believe is the wrong way to go.
Jo Fish @ 36
not ever the law that is being discussed in parliament will guarantee that the money will get to the people or even to the provinces on a proportional basis unless there is some form of political accomodation among the 3 major groups. no neighbor want an independent kurdish state because they all have kurdish minorities.
A coupla newscasts yesterday pointed out that Congress “never de-funded the Vietnam War, just stopped aid to the Vietnamese government.” Are we being readied for the de-funding of the Iraqi government when benchmarks aren’t met?
And why are Democrats talking about new benchmarks for the Iraqi government when that government has met none of the benchmarks Preznit Pissypants laid down in his January SURGE speech?
And, finally, what’s the Iraqi Parliament’s two-month summer break all about? Is there a religious or sectarian significance I have missed?
Thanks, Ms Marsh — and thank you, Mr. Beers, for joining us today!
Greetings, Mr. Beers,
Do you think there is any hope of resurrecting the idea of a comprehensive settlement with Iran, similar to the deal Iran offered through the Swiss in ‘03? And would’t Allawi’s effectiveness be compromised by the perception of him as a CIA asset?
Thanks,
Ron
Get out of Iraq now. The impression here is this is not a difficult concept or a difficult thing to do.
rwcole @ 39
as bush has been doing, there will be some pieces of progress/hope that will be pointed to with the plea to be allowed to continue.
Hi Mr. Beers,
Can we call you Rand? Thanks for coming online to enlighten us. Could you refresh our memory on why you left the Bush administration in the first place? I vaguely remember that you were in the State Dept (I think?)
And thanks for advising Senator Kerry during his campaign
I certainly agree that giving only six months or so funding is the strongest move the dems can make right now. They can then debate the whole mess again right after Petreus reports on the surge.
Care to comment on this?
The results of an attack on Iran could be horrendous. After all, according to a recent study of “the Iraq effect” by terrorism specialists Peter Bergen and Paul Cruickshank, using government and Rand Corporation data, the Iraq invasion has already led to a seven-fold increase in terror. The “Iran effect” would probably be far more severe and long-lasting. British military historian Corelli Barnett speaks for many when he warns that “an attack on Iran would effectively launch World War III.”
Hey TeddySanFran. Always good to be back. Thrilled Rand Beers could join us today.
TeddySanFran @ 42
the benchmarks will be those same benchmarks from january. and meeting them remains unlikely. and the recess is an expression of disdain for the US political timelines, besides it’s hot in the summer in baghdad.
Why do Biden — and now Brownback — tout the tripartite solution unchallenged? A US-imposed three-state solution is acceptable only to Biden and Brownback– not to Iraqis and not to the Iranian, Saudi, Turkish or Syrian governments. Why is treated as a “wise” solution? Doesn’t Biden, as Chair of ForRelations, know it won’t be accepted by Iraq’s neighbors?
john in sacramento @ 46
yes, call me rand or randy. i left because i thought we were taking our eye off the real threat of bin ladin and we were going into iraq without enough force or enough allies or a legitimate UN mandate. and when i left i was at the NSC as the senior director for combatting terrorism
On Iraq: some politicians argue for a phased reduction; leaving small deployments in-country. I worry that such a plan would only open our troops to more and more attacks. Seems like we either need to be all the way in; or all the way out. Your thoughts?
Ghostman
Mr. Beers,
We hear from various people (Joe Biden, Tommy Thompson just last night) that partition is a solution in Iraq. My impression from Juan Cole and others is that even if it were not endorsing ethnic cleansing, this is a false hope because the sects are not nicely geographically distinct (Baghdad especially being heavily mixed.) Do you think any such plan could realistically make things better rather than worse, and is it something that anyone outside could actually impose on a “sovereign” Iraqi government?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 48
an invasion of iran would be an ever greater disaster than iraq, no question. WW III, probably not, but a major expansion of hostilities against a much more effective enemy than bin ladin or the iraqi insurgents.
Newsweek reports a new low for Bush’s JAR- 28%. May be the result of the veto. Bush is riding a political horse that’s starvin to death–he may be walking soon. Newsweek also reports that no gooper is leading Hillary currently- another result of the veto?
Goopers are in a bind- they are going to inherit this war no matter what they say or do- and their president just keeps making it a bigger burden.
Goopers have got to be thinking that unless THEY force a change- they will be consigned to minority status for a long time.
Won’t political forces compell a change in the administration’s position? It’s one thing for Bush to call the dems cowards- will he dare to do that to a significant minority of the gooper congressional caucus?
Did you all read this post on Juan Cole’s blog today? Very interesting. Here’s a snippet:
TeddySanFran @ 51
you are right. if 3 independent states, everyone’s mad. but what they (B & B)are saying is the semi- autonomous regions. it could happen, if the oil revenue could be divied up based on population. the kurdish area is already there and the south is moving there, but the sunnis do not want this solution because they fer they will have no revenue.
Any idea of the real reason for Cheney’s return visit to Saudi Arabia next week?
[Have Bush administration contacts (and alleged contacts) with the Iranian SCIRI exposed a Bush pre-invasion bias against Sunnis to Saudi Arabia’s displeasure?]
rand - In the scenario of a future absence of a US military presence in Iraq to act as a common enemy of sorts, to what extent do you think indigenous Iraqi tribes, Sunni in particular, would oust foreign al qaeda and prevent establishment of their long term presence?
It’s infuriating to hear constant talk of what terrible things might happen if our troops leave, with no comparison to what will happen if they stay, which is the only rational way to decide. They will leave at some point, so if they are only slowing down terrible events at great cost, then their presence serves no purpose other than to let Bush avoid admitting failure.
Do you think there is a useful purpose in having American military forces in Iraq at this point, and if so, what level of forces can actually serve that purpose, without provoking counterproductive resentment as an occupying force?
Bush mentioned Iraq and US Oil supply in the same sentence last week- for the first time that I can remember. Are we about to have an open debate about the role of future oil supplies in determining our policy towards Iraq?
Cutting through it-Rand, how much of the impetus to stay in Iraq derives from wishing to keep an army forward-deployed in the Middle East to control the OIL?
It looks like the US will continue for some months, no matter what. August, September? Then the wheels will totally be off.
Hillary and Byrd are proposing the end of the authorization in October, 5 year mark.
I am sure this sort of option will be more appealing (if not now) in July.
Biden needs to get his act together. He needs to subpoena Cheney to report beforehand on the purpose of his trip to KSA and report afterward on the results. Enought of this Regent holding hands with the King. The American people, and their elected representatives in Congress, deserve to know what foreign adventures their Fourth Branch of government, His Cheneyness, is contemplating.
Ghostman @ 53
the dems are offering a compromise based on a view that a deliberate withdrawal with some residual force for training leaves the possibility of not having chaos. how long the residual force stays is never defined. i agree with this approach because we have a responsibility for what iraq is today. i would pull the combat forces out over 1 year and the trainers in a second year. however, if the iraqis do not make progress on the political, then i would pull everyone out more quickly. another reason more being deliberate is so that the neighboring states can be engaged to take more responsibility for reducing the violence and instability. right now they are not. that is what the conference in egypt is supposed to be about.
Great questions, everyone. See Rand reading and typing as fast as he can… ;-)
bg @ 64
Olbermann yesterday recalled Clinton/Byrd’s similarity to John Warner’s proposal to re-authorize, back in January, that went nowhere. I wonder the odds of cross-aisle sponsorship, in September.
re: keep an army forward-deployed in the Middle East to control the OIL?
That is exactly what Wall Street analysts said was the real reason for invading Iraq, *prior* to the invasion, but nobody was really listening. I think it’s true. Will Cheney get away with it Rand? Are there 4 permanent mil bases planned for Iraq?
The only way to get out of Iraq before Jan. 20, 2009 is to impeach Cheney then Bush (maybe you can throw in Abu and Rice).
Until everyone realizes this we are only dancing a deadly dance.
rwcole @ 56
good ? most Rs are in districts in which they can depend on their base for reelection and the base still supports bush. the Rs in swing districts are in trouble but not enough for a veto-proof congress. so if bush remains stubborn, he can hold out. UNLESS THE BASE STARTS TO TURN.
I understand why the neighboring states oppose a partition into 3 independent states. The 3 semi-autonomous regions seems like a good solution. If I recall correctly, Bush opposes any kind of partition. What is the reason for that opposition?
Three dollar gas enough to shift the base?
pow wow @ 59
worry about the saudis going off on their own, which they have done. abdullah saying that the US occupation of iraq is illegal is as damning a statement as the cautious saudis ever make!
The base will never turn against Bush on the war. There are other, concurrent scandals that would turn the base against BushCo, though. Morally repugnant issues, to them.
Rand
Yes there are plenty of gooper seats in the house that will stay in the gooper column until the second coming- but suppose that 10-20 percent of the gooper congresscritters and senators start supporting the dems on key votes- won’t that dramatically change the political calculus in the White House?
TeddySanFran @ 75
That’s why Bush continues to parade out Dick Cheney. The base loves him.
Muzzy @ 60
i think they will throw them out.
Rand,
What’s your opinion of Desert Crossing 1999?
Is this one of the reasons you became frustrated with the Bush administration? In that they dismissed the warnings and advice of the Generals?
In my not so learned opinion, I think the whole “surge” strategy and the funding of it is an exercise in futility because it’s just like that “whack a mole” game, in that we will hit them in one hole and they’ll pop out in another (which is happening right now). And besides for an occupation to eventually work, don’t you have to have the compliance of the people in the occupied country?
Taylor Marsh: “That’s why Bush continues to parade out Dick Cheney. The base loves him.”
I guess the base is the only group that knows his name.
Rand—
Your opinion on Crouch’s resignation from the NSC?
I know Rand has got to be leaving us soon. I want to thank him very much for joining this discussion. So any last thoughts on Iraq, the war, as well as where we stand in the region?
Redshift @ 61
i think it is a question of the mission not the number. if we drop out of the combat role, we will be less provoking. if we do that, our numbers drop by 3/4s at a minimum, probably more.
RonD @ 63
it’s oil and threatening iran
Forgive if asked previously….is the podcast of your interview with Mr. Beers going to be available, say like - now?
egregious @ 81
1st Q asked was if he was caught in the madam scandal, WH had to issue a denial.
Thank you-I have admired you and your work for a long time.
Wordsmith @ 85
For some reason, wordsmith, we had technical difficulties, so Rand and I didn’t connect. Sorry.
The enormity of error involved in the US invasion and occupation of Iraq is little in question anywhere in the world.
How is the Apeact/pnac inspired program to install permanent US bases in Iraq to be held for an indeterminate future period going to be negated or abandoned after more than a million Iraqi deaths, untold causualties, an American reign of terror to subdue and subject the Iraqi population to American will, a trillion dollar debt, and all the assorted other distruction of national being( abandonment of Law and Constitution, usurpation of military power, etc. etc.) have been invested?
It seems a bell has to be unrung and both people, institutions, and vested interests be held accountable for their actions, the political process be examined and reformed as not to allow similar occurance (much as the Nazis were in post war Germany), and also, as a price to be paid, the recovery of all economic production and economic resources from those who currently control them as compensation to the American citizen who has greiviously been harmed by the current economic masters who have surrepticiously overthrown the government to enable their schemes.
Another way, other than from corporate enterprise or military must be found to provide the management skills needed to manage government programs. This may be the great challenge.
All the best……
john in sacramento @ 79
They didn’t commit enough force in the beginning and if they really believed the military could make a difference now, they didn’t commit enough this time either. whack a mole is exactly what we have.
Taylor Marsh @ 57
That’s something I don’t understand is the conflict between the Kurds and the Turks. Any suggestions on where to start as far as reading material?
Thank you so much for your time today. I hope you and your views find a wide American audience, and soon.
Taylor Marsh @ 82
the greatest element of the disaster is our loss of moral authority in the world — to mobilize others to do what really needs to be done — global warming, stopping genocide, preventing proliferation by diplomacy, etc.
thanks for the opportunity to participate. go to go now.
Thank you Rand!
Thank you also, Taylor.
Taylor Marsh @ 77
Why? And how cruel was it to make the Queen hang out with Cheney the Dick?
The only thing I can come up with is their base is as they - with morals or values.
Yes, Thank you Rand.
Thank you so much for joining us.
Great honor to have you here Mr. Beers, ditto Taylor.
what scandals do you think would succeed in turning “the base” against Bush, short of a revelation that Laura is actually a guy?
[Rauni Kilde MD]
Mr./Ms Rauni Kilde -
Don’t do that unless you want to foot the bill for bandwidth.
You can post a link because people tend to read everything posted here. It’s totally unnecessary to post huge swatches of prose, especially bolded crap.
Thanks for being at the lake and informing so well.
And {{{{{{{{{{MODS}}}}}}}}}} You RAWK!
[Mod: We live to serve.]
oddmommy @ 100
Gannon/Guckert and the DCMadam
Oddmommy #100, I can’t think of anything.If the parade of corruption and amorality they’ve already demonstrated hasn’t done it, I don’t know what will.
oddmommy @ 100
Prol’ly somethin’ along the lines of Edwin Edwards (corrupt D-LA) who claimed he could be re-elected unless found in bed with dead girl or live boy.
TeddySanFran @ 104
Jeff Gannon caught in the act of giving Cheney the Dick head.
Wordsmith @ 91
Here’s a bit of quick info that could shed some light: