(Click on the pic to see Monty Python's "The Bishop" skit.)
Cliff Schecter discusses, for your reading pleasure, the utter hypocrisy of conservative Catholic religious figures who punish progressive politicians for opposing the Vatican on some issue (Claire McCaskill and stem cells, in this case), yet look the other way when Republican Catholic political figures back the Iraq war and the death penalty — both of which are also officially opposed by the Vatican. (Remember when a few conservative bishops pulled similar crap against John Kerry in 2004? Including Archbishop Raymond Burke, the same guy currently attacking Senator McCaskill and who recently went after Sheryl Crow? I did some Googling and didn't see where these princelings of the church ever came out against Iraq or the death penalty for people who don't have gills or a tail.)
Oh, yeah: Speaking of Iraq and immorality, somebody needs to do up an Iraq bill that removes the mercenaries privateers "contractors" from Iraq, who equal if not exceed the number of actual US troops in the country. The way that the Rumsfeld-Cheney-Wolfowitz gang of PNAC Platoon goons tried to privatize the military is enough to make even a casual observer gag and screech at the obscenity of it all. But I guess certain conservative Republican-cuddling bishops are too busy harassing Claire McCaskill to care about what we do with real live American soldiers or contractors, much less real live out-of-the-womb Iraqis.
And it's not just archconservative archbishops who are being bad actors in the political realm. The Village Voice has a nice blockbuster of a piece on how Bush and the Republicans have been trying to use evangelical Protestant Christians to court the Jewish vote — with some rather dodgy results, to put it mildly. (Seems that Jewish people in America and Israel have this teey-weeny objection to being used as props by Republicans or crazy Armageddon-minded right-wing Christians who think that they're cursed because of the presence of a Harry Potter book in a room.) Remember our crazy friend Michele Bachmann? Well, her BFF Mac Hammond is the upper Midwest regional director for "Christians United for Israel" (CUFI), whose boss John Hagee is behind some of the most vilely anti-Semitic Holocaust revisionism currently out there.
The founders of this country, sickened at the centuries of religious warfare and sectarian strife that filled the histories of Great Britain and the rest of the "Old World" they knew, deliberately set out to remove religious figures of all sorts from access to the levers of power, even as they promoted freedom to practice all religions that weren't threats to the common good. Now the Republicans, for pure political gain, are working to undo both of these sensible practices — and are endangering not just Israel (whose destruction is part of the evangelical "End of Days" plan) but, increasingly, the rest of the world as well.
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Zed
Zed to you too!
Republics are Monarchists and the Commander Guy is their boy king.
ugh. I’m afraid these are my relatives.
Apropos of the Republican “debate” question on evolution:
Republicans are God’s way of pacing the evolution of the human species.
Hi PW. Your post doesn’t show up when you look at the FDL home page. I only get here with Scarecrow’s link.
Phoenix Woman!
A nit: I think you might be mixing your Christianists just a little. You mention “Ted Hagee.” I think you’re mixing Ted Haggard (the “cured” homosexual preacher in Denver) with John Hagee, San Antonio’s own believer in the right of Israel to exist in order to have the apocalypse/rapture happen as soon as possible.
Phoenix Woman @ 1
Thanks my first one! Great post Phoenix Woman.
From the New York Times:
So now we know the real reason Bush vetoed the Iraq war spending bill.
dakine01 @ 7
Thanks!
I grew up going to Catholic schools, lived across the street from the priest and across an alley from the Notre Dame nuns. I can assure you (at least then) it was the nuns doing the work of the church. The priest lived in a very nice home, had house cleaners, cooks and a nice car. I often saw cases of wine and beer out on the back porch of the priest not at the convent. I did not witness these priest do anything for their congregation or for those suffering in the congregation. Just living well off of those donations on Sunday. I did not see them taking care of their “sheep”.
On the other hand the nuns lived, cooked and cleaned communally. They taught at the school and I witnessed them do works of compassion and empathy that impacted the community.
It is an old patriarchal system that keeps men at the top, many who crave power, dominance and fancy hats and clothes. (ever see the clothes those bishops, archbishop, Pope and others wear). Sell those fancy things and give the money back to the poor.
Bust the Catholic Church!
This post is ALL the more reason to vote for John McCain. He is the only candidate willing to follow Satan home and take him out. He’ll kill Bin Laden with his own bare hands while he’s down there too.
-GSD
Religious zeal is the one thing that makes greed look good as a political motivation.
ifthethunderdontgetya @ 6
Try hitting Ctrl and F5 together — that should do it.
Wigwam @ 13
Uh-huh. Greedy people are at least pragmatic enough to be reached by certain forms of logic.
Lou Dobbs with Christopher Hitchens last night discussing his book God is not Great.
G’morning PW…
I was stationed in Greece for three years which national religion is the Orthodox Greek Church. The Ottoman Empire ruled for several hundred years. Under this rule Greeks were prevented from practicing their religion. And it is why all the wonderful statues found at the antiquities are headless, the Turks lopped off their heads as they were graven images.
Greeks practiced their religion in secret, priests found places to hide and now you can tour lovely caves and monasteries.
Meteora, Greece
Now trying to remember all the restrictions of Greek citizens who did not belong to the Orthodox religion. It was my understanding that non members could not attend public school.
The one think I really liked about Greece is that their citizens are required to vote. I can remember the agitation of my landlady trying to make sure she got to the polls to vote … some how there were consequences if she didn’t.
for those who have never waded in to the primordial ooze that is the Christian Right -
I know it’s all icky and stuff firedogs, but it’s important to be exposed to this and keep it in mind next time the MSM singles out Fred Phelps for his continuing psychosis
oregondave @ 9
No, no, no. You don’t get it. See, if it’s IN the womb, it’s good. If it’s out of the womb, it’s IED fodder. (Especially if it’s not a Senator’s son or anything like that.)
Absolutely wonderful post, PW. I heard the news about Claire last night & was sickened. I also agree that we need to ask will Blackwater be withdrawing along with our troops. Nice work.
http://www.rollingstone.com/po…..ds_senator
elliot posted this yesterday, is worth reading the whole thing……. i’ll just reserve comment and you can draw your own pictures.
great post pw!
omg snark fest :)
The christianists have forced religion into politics and government that has and will continue to do damage to our country. After the last abortion decision by SCOTUS, there is no way in hell that I would take the chance of having another Roman Catholic on the Supreme Court; and that is not how it is supposed to be.
Hey Phoenix Woman, I was just reflecting on this topic this morning. Those who most loudly proclaim their Christianity really seem to be hatemongers. They hate gays, they hate dark skinned people, they hate muslims, poor people, uppity women, and intellectuals.
I think you have to look at quieter smaller christian communities to find the kind of spirit that has anything to do with lending a helping hand to anyone who needs it.
Angry Black Bitch, who lives in St. Louis, went off on Burke last Friday:
Choice words for the Bishop . . . though a bishop who turns his back on a Catholic Children’s hospital named for one of his predecessors needs a few choice words.
As ABB would say, “Lawd have mercy.”
cbl @ 18
for those who have never waded in to the primordial ooze that is the Christian Right -
I know it’s all icky and stuff firedogs, but it’s important to be exposed to this and keep it in mind next time the MSM singles out Fred Phelps for his continuing psychosis.
——————
Thanks, cbl. I was trying to keep this post short, but I was hoping that people like you would delve into the links provided and put up excerpts to drive the point home.
Republican strategy:
It’s like a huge boat with fishing poles in the water, all baited – each one selected to appeal to the particular weaknesses of the fish in the ocean, each one ready to be reeled in when a fish takes the bait. Each fish is then fitted with an electronic device which controls its behavior. Then it is thrown back to do the republican bidding.
Wherever you look they have their traps laid and their manipulation at work.
It’s a criminal conspiracy of gigantic proportions, masquerading as government.
As Garrison Keillor says, the republican party has made peace with hipocrisy a long time ago.
Speaking of monarchy: Queen Elizabeth II and hubby visit the colonies, where she appreciates the progress since her last visit. From AP:
Lou Costello @ 16
That’s a pair I can do without, regardless of the topic.
carolyn urban @ 24
Didn’t you realize that Jeebus was a young man with western European features? They don’t believe that anyone who doesn’t look like that could EVER be considered human.
Peterr @ 30
Did you watch it? Good stuff!
I was at a private house party with John Edwards last evening in Tucson. He spoke for about 15 minutes and took questions for about 45 minutes. He was really clear….
1. Get out if Iraq now
2. Keep sending the same bill back to Bush
3. When he becomes President, GITMO is closed
I also have two autographed copies of his book Home. Today Edwards is in NOLA with building homes with Danny Glover.
On a related note, I was personally sickened that the Archbishop of Washington D.C. was present at the Catholic prayer breakfast a month or so back when chimpy took to the podium for some ignorant comments (as you may recall, it was a Friday morning and chimpy cracked a joke about being able to eat bacon now that Lent was over).
That Archbishop Wuerl could appear on the same program as the torturer-in-chief just speaks volumes now doesn’t it?
Good post. A comedian in Italy just made fun of the pope. Pope called him a terroist. So much for his sense of humor.
OT – Shooter and Teh Queen on CNN…
Lou Costello @ 16
Hitch has been officially disinvited from future Christian-Republican circle jerks for this apostasy.
He must have been tired of drinking scotch with such anti-intellectual, anti-science rubes at pro-war rallies that he needed to initiate a final split strategy.
-GSD
Stephen Colbert and The Word: The Unquisition
Lou Costello @ 32
I can’t abide watching Lou Dobbs at all. Period. End of story.
my 21===and forgot to say—is about brownback……article is long, but a lot in it.in depth interview, converted catholic, weekly prayer meetings with people on hill, etc….this stuff is running deep in our government….save it to read later if no time now…..is relevant. h/t to elliot.
and forgot to say—article is long, but a lot in it.
Being from Missouri & a McCaskill supporter, I was very upset when I heard that Claire McCaskill would not be allowed to give the commencement address at the Catholic high school where her daughter attends because of her views on abortion and stem cell research.
More hypocrisy from the Catholic church. That’s why I am also an ex-Catholic. It is a very hypocritcal patriarchal institution. Any institution that perpetuated sexual abuse of innocent children and then tried to cover it up again and again with hardly an apology from their leadership even when they could no longer deny their complicity — has no right to say that they do God’s work!
I believe in a God and strongly believe that we are all on a spiritual journey to help each other. But I find it hard to belong to most organized religions because of their man-made laws, intolerance for other’s views and their hypocritical actions.
PW – thanks for the excellent post.
Yeah. And that that evolution thing. That’s extremely uncomfortable for “some” because that would lead us to believe we have common ancestry with all other humans in the world. And “some” would find that a deeply offensive idea. It’s the same group that think the entire world, this planet and all its creatures and resources, are simply here for our convenience and disposal.
ThinkProgress sez, Jeff Gannon was a spokesman for the International Bible Reading Association’s Prayer Marathon held yesterday at the capitol
Now that’s funny
Phoenix Woman @ 19
No. Say it ain’t so (pleading with a stricken expression, as the hypocrisy of it all enters into his consciousness like a thousand pellets from an impaired Shooter’s shotgun . . . ) !!!
So according to Pope Benedict, The Comedy Store and The Laugh Factory are terrorist cells?
-GSD
I dislike John Hagee.
actually PW,
it is I who owe you thanks for another fab post – I swear to goodness, Ms. Hamsher collects bright lights like a winger collects Scaife checks
carolyn urban -
grandma cbl: talkers don’t do and doers don’t talk !
the old gal sounds smarter every day
Kathleen @ 11
God love ya, Kathleen!! Coming from an Irish Catholic family of eleven, one of them a “Kathleen,” I’ve seen the same bullshit, and got tweaked many a time for calling them on it!!
My uncle was a priest,and he lived very well, indeed! Like any institution that is dying on the vine, will kick and scream, and even crawl in bed with the lowest of the low……the GOP, in order to stop the inevitable. The old world is fading, there is no stopping it. We are ascending from the dark to the light, and all those who can’t make the paradigm shift due to attachments to unconscious ways, will also fade away…………buh bye.
Peace to all, and have a super duper alley looper of a weekend……….ye hawwwwwwwwwwww!
P.S. In regard to those cases of beer and wine on the porch. Hell yeah, the priest that used to frequent our 4th. of July bashes on Lake Erie, could party their asses off.
Can someone, anyone, provide me with a sound answer to this question: If it was right and just to afford a homeland to the Jewish people in 1948, and to provide them with the dignity they so richly deserve, then why is it not the right thing to do the same for the Palestinian people today?
From TP referring to “Prayer Day” festivities:
Organizers put out 600 folding chairs on the lawn — the spot where presidents are inaugurated — and set up a huge stage with powerful amplifiers. But at 9:30 a.m. yesterday, not one of the 600 seats was occupied. By 11 a.m., as a woman read a passage from Revelations, attendance had grown — to four people. Finally, at 1 p.m., 37 of the 600 seats were occupied, though many of those people were tourists eating lunch.
This is what happens when delusionals are given legitimacy.
To paraphrase Charlton Heston: “It’s a clownhouse!”
-GSD
I have a tough time taking moral instruction from an organization that protects child molesters. I don’t see a whole lot of difference between the Catholic Church and NAMBLA.
OT..But finally, former USA Debra Wong Yang is getting some attention. IMHO, she is the best example of conspiracy to obstruct justice that we know about. A 1.5 million signing bonus; yea, right!
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/003154.php
katymine @ 33
As a caller on the Diane Rehm show I was recently able to ask Edwards “How he explains his yes vote on the war resolution in Oct of 2002. He had a very similar response as Hillary’s “if only I knew then what I know now”. I find this answer utter horseshit!
I mentioned that he should have been listening to the Rehm show prior to the invasion. She had Scott Ritter on several times, retired CIA analyst, Zbigniew Brezinskig and many others who questioned the validity of the intelligence and seriously warned against the invasion based on their expertise and that Iraq had not attacked us.
This answer by Edwards and Clinton falls short of logic!
RUN AL RUN!
You could also say that the freedom of religion and no establishment clauses in Constitution are yet another example of the founders’ devotion to checks and balances. If you’re going to favor one religion, which one: the Anglicans, or the anti-Anglican puritans of New England? the Catholics of Maryland or the Lutherans in New York? others?
Nothing would have split the new nation faster than to choose one over the others. Wisely, the founders ruled the choice out of bounds completely, for themselves and their posterity.
I do not think that religious hypocrisy is denominational.
By way of apologizing to Scarecrow for cutting off his GOP debate thread when it was in full cry:
RedState.org readers: McCain won, Rudy got his butt kicked
MSNBC.com readers: They all suck except for Ron Paul (who’s the only one opposed to the Iraq war)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 49
Exactly.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 49
i think this is a very fair,
and worthwhile, question. one
our present leadership will studiously
avoid — even as secretary rice meets
with the syrians. apparently iran and the u.s.
actually talked — for a moment — face-to-
face, today, according to the nytimes.com. . .
sad, actually. . .
now — yesterday, sen. leahy and
sen. whitehouse wrote the DoJ to
ask for data summaries on public
corruption cases, by party affiliation.
if they CONFIRM anything like what these
two college professors have documented
during the 2001 to 2006 bush/cheney/rove/
ashcroft/gonzales years of the DoJ, we should
all start yelling for indictments, right now.
just my informed $0.02.
Phoenix Woman @ 26
gah, all i could take was the easy accessible toobz on huff. As a Secular Humanist, which i suppose makes me part of the Illuminati, I can only say they must be _really_ worried about the EU.
Good post PW. Unfortunately my stomach is full from last seasons exposure of fundi candidates and their circles of influence.
As a person of faith, I am constantly amazed at the lack of faith presented by the dominionist/theocrats.
If God is all powerful, no government will stand in God’s way.
Their God must be pretty durn small, I guess, if they need to protect it against the government.
How pathetic.
And how sad that they have convinced other sorry, brow beaten, fearful sheep that this God of theirs needs to be protected.
Jesus had something to say about people like this:
mark 9:42
Jesus isn’t going to be too pleased with these guys…….
shooter speaking live on cnn…
Oklahoma kiddo @ 55
You are so right about this!
My christian friends are slightly more agreeable to recognizing this hypocrisy than my non-christian friends.
Kathleen @ 53
Matt Stoller had this about Edwards; I don’t know what it means, it’s just an fyi.
The John Edwards Trust Issue
by Matt Stoller, Tue May 01, 2007 at 09:57:38 PM EST
To really buy into the idea that John Edwards can be a transformational candidate, you have to buy into the idea that he himself has transformed. And while he has certainly shown signs of rethinking his approach to politics, and in particular dropping the centrism that once characterized his persona, he’s not there. On January 23, he gave what can only be characterized as a militant and aggressive speech on Iran. After seeing the fallout, he walked back his rhetoric, but I’ve been talking to friends in the national security community and they have brought up some worrisome points.
Yglesias points them out here.
I do know, however, that between then and now Edwards hired Michael Signer to be his national security policy guy for campaign purposes and that Signer falls in the same ideological neighborhood as the aforementioned crew. Except for Beinart, these names aren’t well known in the progressive blogosphere, but the others aren’t folks with netroots-friendly views, either. O’Hanlon, in particualr, is well to the right of the New Model Beinart and I wouldn’t at all be enthusiastic about the prospect of an administration in which he was given a high-level position.
Michael O’Hanlon is particularly awful. A year ago, O’Hanlon was denying the reality of a civil war in Iraq while paradoxically encouraging American troops to involve themselves in one to quell violence. This is why Edwards and his recent statement that he would consider troop deployment in Iraq for humanitarian missions is so problematic. As recently as a few days ago, O’Hanlon was on the Hugh Hewitt show, Hugh Hewitt, to discuss a recent piece he authored on Iraq in which he argued as follows…..
The John Edwards Trust Issue
by Matt Stoller, Tue May 01, 2007 at 09:57:38 PM EST
To really buy into the idea that John Edwards can be a transformational candidate, you have to buy into the idea that he himself has transformed. And while he has certainly shown signs of rethinking his approach to politics, and in particular dropping the centrism that once characterized his persona, he’s not there. On January 23, he gave what can only be characterized as a militant and aggressive speech on Iran. After seeing the fallout, he walked back his rhetoric, but I’ve been talking to friends in the national security community and they have brought up some worrisome points.
Yglesias points them out here.
I do know, however, that between then and now Edwards hired Michael Signer to be his national security policy guy for campaign purposes and that Signer falls in the same ideological neighborhood as the aforementioned crew. Except for Beinart, these names aren’t well known in the progressive blogosphere, but the others aren’t folks with netroots-friendly views, either. O’Hanlon, in particualr, is well to the right of the New Model Beinart and I wouldn’t at all be enthusiastic about the prospect of an administration in which he was given a high-level position.
Michael O’Hanlon is particularly awful. A year ago, O’Hanlon was denying the reality of a civil war in Iraq while paradoxically encouraging American troops to involve themselves in one to quell violence. This is why Edwards and his recent statement that he would consider troop deployment in Iraq for humanitarian missions is so problematic. As recently as a few days ago, O’Hanlon was on the Hugh Hewitt show, Hugh Hewitt, to discuss a recent piece he authored on Iraq in which he argued as follows.
http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/5/1/215738/1064
something tells me that Bishop has yet to make a statement condemning torture
and dmac,
now you’ve got the ol memory bank runnin’ wrt to comments about congressional prayer meetings – can’t remember right now who it was, but think it was a recovering republican who wrote how shocking to observe how virulent this was and how totally absent of rational thought
oh and momly -
Jesus is coming . . . everyone look busy !
twolf1 @ 61
I can’t abide watching Dick Cheney at all. Period. End of story.
I watched the Repug candidates
debate…er… homage to Reagan. Mitt came out ahead, IMO. McCain tried macho–and failed.LOL
OT from C&L: GOP Debate: The End Of Roe V. Wade – “A Great Day For America”
There are actually more people being killed in ‘…..religious warfare and sectarian strife’… now, BY US, over a very short period, comparatively, than ‘…the centuries of religious warfare and sectarian strife that filled the histories of Great Britain and the rest of the “Old World”….’ I can say this, of course, because back then there were probably not even one billion people on Earth, including the now-probable 500 million in Central and South America until 1492.
Until lately I was a travelling salesman often in the South and was always amazed at the numbers of Jewish poiltical ads purporting to be ‘Judaeo-Christian’ aimed at the most basic Fundamentalists exhorting them to support Israel. Naturally they do not mention that Israel has focussed a lot of attention on driving out the remainder of the formerly about 35% of Palestinians who were Christian and also that they are systematically destroying Christian ruins.
There is an undercurrent of suppressed violence here in our society which is to a great extent religiously-based. The Oklahoma Bombers spring to mind together with the regularly-expressed Crusading aspect to the Bush/Cheney Axis.
Our one-eyed support for (about 80%) non-religious Israel, driven by religious Judaism in the US, was largely the genesis for aggressive active (often fundamentalist) Islam.
So religion is going on killing today, unabated.
Gilmore is just the kind of thug core goopers are looking for.
Realist and Brokenarrow, another Catholic story for you. My mother (now 79) found herself pregnant and not married 55 years ago. She came from a hard working labor family and had never taken (still has not) a dime from anyone that she had not worked for. When she went to the 2 Catholic priest in her parish for help, they actually told her that “she would be going to hell for adultery”. She found herself in a Catholic convent/home for unwed mothers in Cincinnati Ohio and was the only woman to walk out with her baby (me), while all of the other unwed mothers there had been convinced to give their babes up for adoption.
She still lives with the “guilt” of being an unwed mother in the 50’s. Yet she and my step father fed the Catholic church lots LOTS of “guilt” money on Sunday’s. Truely did not see this $$ spent on those who needed it.
One of the priest at the church I grew up in ended up being one of the biggest perpetrators of the molestation of young boys in the state of Ohio.
While I do believe there are “people of the cloth” who have a serious commitment to compassion and empathy. The perverse lifestyle that “some” in the Catholic system have and continue to live within the protection of that system is out of control.
Sell those fancy clothes priest boys! Give that money to the poor!
PW, Great post. Thansk for your continuing hard work.
It’s funny I wrote Pelosi a note this morning supporting a quick exit from Iraq and adding that this should include mercenaries. Since then I’ve had this nagging worry: What will Dickie’s private army do if they’re all unemployed. This thought is really starting to scare me. We need to get our congress-critters thinking about this too. 100K or so angry, frustrated, and highly skilled mercenaries running around the country with a bunch of very highly placed friends does not look like a good picture to me.
Peterr @ 54
IIRC..Not having a religious test for govt office was the result of a friend of George Washington, a Mr. Phillips, begging Washington to have it included. Phillips was a leader of the Philadelphia Jewish community.
REPORT: GOP Candidates Run From Bush Record
Please forgive OTness but I just put together something. A DC legal secretary was just fired because she moonlighted for Madame Palfrey (ABC news). The firm that fired her? Akin Gump. The same Akin Gump where Goodling’s Dowd works.
What a small town.
Kathleen @ 71
My opinion, there is a book here if you want to pursue it. To protect all parties, you can make it a novel. Sort of reminds me of Cider House Rules.
For those impressed (/snark) last night with Mitt’s “alternate nuclear transfer” as a response to question about stem-cell research, please follow the link.
OT, but Newsweek has this Rove coached Moscella before his testimony. But he did not tell him about his, or Harriet Miers, back door influence, thus leaving Moscella to give inaccurate testimony. That’s obstruction of justice, peeps.
Phoenix Woman @ 57
While it was completely understandable that Jews wanted a homeland to call their own especially after Hitlers criminal and horrendous treatment of the Jews. It was not right or just to confiscate Palestinian land in illegal and immoral ways. The vote at the UN in 1947 was rigged, and the Palestinians were treated and continue to be treated in immoral and illegal ways.
It is absurd to claim a piece of land based on “the Bible” a book written by Jewish men who said they talked to god thousands of years ago. (we know how history books are manipulated)
How absurd!
Can you see the real estate sign
Century 1000 B.C.
Real Estate Broker ..Yahweh
Realtor….Moses
only Jews may apply
Phoenix Woman:
I am an atheist but retain a modicum of respect for the Catholic Church and often wonder why Demcrats don’t:
a) highlight the virulent anti-Catholicism of Republican Christianists, who think Catholicism is basically a satanic cult (admittedly that mitre and crozier and all the attendant ritual can be kind of creepy). I mean, doesn’t anyone realize that the parents and grandparents of these people from Bob Jones and so forth were burning crosses on Catholics’ lawns in the 20’s and 30’s?
b) Remind Catholics of the Vatican’s position on the Iraq war
ok kiddo at 49
i told ya before ok–they don’t have any resources ‘we’ want! human resources don’t count doncha know……..
toolpusher @ 75
there are not six degrees of
separation any more, anywhere — there
are, in my experience, only two (okay,
maybe three, in parts of western montana). . .
my bet is that this is just odd coincidence.
but — lord knows — we’ve seen stranger things
turn out NOT to be coincidence. . .
twolf1 @ 74
It should say “cut and run”.
-GSD
punaise, mon vieux, si tu es la:
Sego ou Sarko?
WaPo’s take on Sunday’s election.
Phoenix Woman @ 57
For starters, there is no Palestianian Lobby in the US as there is an Israel Lobby. For example, what is the Palestinian counterpart to A*P*C? It is not about justice but about power, money, and influence.
OT ~ May 4th 1970 Kent State Massacre
Listen to Thomas Jefferson:
Badwater @ 3
The Emperor Wears No Clothes-The “Commando Guy”!
Kathleen @ 79
While it was completely understandable that Jews wanted a homeland to call their own especially after Hitlers criminal and horrendous treatment of the Jews. It was not right or just to confiscate Palestinian land in illegal and immoral ways. The vote at the UN in 1947 was rigged, and the Palestinians were treated and continue to be treated in immoral and illegal ways.
It is absurd to claim a piece of land based on “the Bible” a book written by Jewish men who said they talked to god thousands of years ago. (we know how history books are manipulated)
How absurd!
Can you see the real estate sign
Century 1000 B.C.
Real Estate Broker ..Yahweh
Realtor….Moses
only Jews may apply
and what’s more it was written in about 630-600BC. It has been proved there was no Abraham (anywhere near palestine, if anywhere at all), No Moses, No Exodus (because the Hebrews did not exist yet), No David, No Solomon, (so no Temple, and no other building either. “Israel” was an organised society of Palestinians in the north when the semi-nomadic hill tribesmen to the South were as-yet completely unorganized….. And what’s more, Titus, in 70-77AD did kill just about all the Jews resident in Palestine, so that today’s Israelis are mostly descended from Jews who had left voluntarily before then. All this on top of the question as to the morality of giving them the whole of Palestine in 1948 when they were never more than the majority pop. of an area which was perhaps 15% of Palestine.
So the Hebrews/Jews became an organized society in about 600BC, were ruled almost the whole time from then until their destruction in 70-77AD, successively by Assyrians, Persians, Babylonians, Greeks and Romans.
What justification for all the bother they are causing MY Social Security as a result of their conning Baby George and Dickie Boy.
Speaking of religious wingnuts
The Ugly Truths Of Babylon’s Media Whore, Bill Donohue
realworld at 72
isn’t that what happened in iraq?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 49
Words like “just”, “dignity” and “deserve” are irrelevant to any discussion of the drawing of maps. Power is the only factor.
The greatest reason the Israeli occupation upsets me personally is not because I identify especially with either side in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, or because I dislike the Israelis so much — it’s because I know my country, the U.S., has irresponsibly and immorally tilted the scales in favor of the Israelis, already stronger to begin with, and thus ensured them a preponderance of power that can only be abused.
Question: Does it seem that nutwing bishops are also more comfortable at targeting women in politics or is it just my imagination? I suppose Sheryl Crow came up on the radar because of her confrontatin with Rove, but I mean really:
I weep for the guy, that the charity chose to raise money for sick children instead of condemning a sinful woman. A faint whiff of misogyny.
sofistic @ 87
in and of itself spiritual.
brendan @ 92
Carter’s book “Palestine Peace: Not Apartheid” is incredible and so insightful!
Somewhat OT, but not much:
The writings of Thomas Jefferson
Lou Costello @ 86
The kids that perished that day remain forever sublime in this house.
Just a tad OT:
I didn’t go anywhere near the GOP debate last night, but let me see if I can sum it up.
Reagan: Greatest President EVER.
Bill Clinton: Worst President ever and everything’s his fault.
Hillary Clinton: B*tch.
John Edwards: nice haircut, ha, ha ,ha.
Gore: Ozone man, ha, ha, ha.
Gays: Scary (except for Lesbians). End of Western Civilization.
Abortion: Save the Fetuses (Fetusi, Feti?)
Terrorist: Bad, Bad, Bad.
George Bush: Who?
Did I miss anything?
mui @ 93
Sheryl Crow came up on Burke’s radar because she did commericials aired in Missouri opposing the ban on stem cell research last year. Burke was after the children’s hospital board to dis-invite Crow before her little spat with Rove. It just became public recently.
But add this to the misogyny: the host of the dinner is St. Louis icon Bob Costas, who is divorced and remarried. Funny, Burke’s had no problems with Costas throwing this fundraiser for the last ten years or so.
mc:
More or less on the money, but “I don’t recall” (paging Gonzo) Gore coming up.
mc @ 98
Corruption: Dems keep cash in their freezers.
brendan @ 92
;0)
If there is any support for our constitutional form of government left in the “moral” Republicans elected to Congress, aside from the support shown recently by Chuck Hagel, Gordon Smith and two or three members of the House, here’s a way for them to help bring our immoral occupation of Iraq to an end:
With regard to the proposed legislation to end Public Law 107-243, the Authorization to Use Military Force Against Iraq (on 10/11/07, its fifth anniversary)…
…which was announced Thursday by Senators Byrd and Clinton, there is a good deal of very helpful analysis available in the April 17, 2002 testimony of Professor Michael Glennon to the Senate Judiciary Committee, here:
Http://judiciary.senate.gov/te…..wit_id=434
It seems to me that because those stated objectives specified in the 2002 AUMF have all long-since either been met, or been found to be baseless, the remaining concern of our legislators, should the 2002 Iraq AUMF be officially repealed, ought to be whether the Executive Branch will endeavor to legally parse generic “terrorism” or Al Qaeda’s alleged presence in Iraq as justification under the 2001 9/11-caused AUMF (rather than the 2002 Iraq AUMF) to “legally” maintain our Armed Forces in Iraq, in defiance of the will of Congress.
With that in mind, Professor Glennon’s testimony is very helpful in highlighting the very limited, 9/11-specific authorization for force granted by the 2001 ‘terrorism’ AUMF, which almost certainly would not permit any alleged post-invasion “outbreak” of general terrorism in Iraq to be used as justification for keeping our military in Iraq. Some pertinent excerpts of his testimony (which took place, obviously, before we invaded Iraq):
With regard to any inherent Constitutionally-derived Executive Branch authority to use our military forces without the consent of Congress (as spelled out in a specific statutory authorization), Professor Glennon says:
Glennon concludes:
In short, Glennon’s careful analysis clarifies the binding effect the Byrd/Clinton proposal (if carefully drated) would have on the Executive Branch, and verifies that it would be a Constitutionally-valid restraint on the President’s use of our Armed Forces in Iraq. The language that he cites above from three decades ago (for a revised War Powers Act), is obviously too broad and imprecise for today’s bad-faith, power-mad legal-parsing administration, but the principle underlying it remains clear: without an actual attack from Iraq upon America or our [meaning the public’s, not those of global oil corporations’) “possessions,” or of an actual imminent threat of attack from Iraq upon us, the Commander in Chief must bring our Armed Forces home from Iraq, as soon as the 2002 AUMF has been repealed, and without any modification of the 2001 ‘terrorism’ AUMF needed. I very much hope other Senators will soon join Byrd and Clinton in this wise and vital effort to repeal the outmoded and obsolete, if ever applicable, 2002 Authorization to invade Iraq.
[Link thanks to commenters wardlow and Inland at DailyKos]
I’ve just been reading Clive Stafford Smith’s “Bad Men” about the prisoners in Guantanamo. I know I’ve gone on about it already, but has anyone else out there seen it yet? I warn you you need a strong stomach and a good sense of shame if you do. I don’t mean as an American, my lot have sttod by and watched it happen to British citizens and residents and had to be shamed into lifting a finger.
Bu it has given me an idea. The USA firings affair is fairly clearly an assault on the integrity of US Government. So some sort of treason (don’t go all lawyerly on me, it’ll spoil my line of thought).
But we need evidence.
We know from published evidence that Michael Elston knew what was happening. He’s clearly a minor player.
So, why not send him off to GITMO? He could be held in solitary, subjected to non-injurious physical contract (waterboarding) and his phobias could be explored (dogs can be set on him). He’ll soon tell us if we ask that Karl was involved (true or not it doesn’t matter). So we can get Karl.
Someone tell me where I’ve got it wrong please.
apologize in advance for a long OT comment re: Jim Comey. crossposted at TNH for Marcy.
Here’s my take on Jim Comey’s testimony yesterday.
First, here is a guy who defends his employees (even to some extent Kevin Ryan). You can’t ask for more from your boss than that.
Second, he made it quite clear that he had no knowledge of Kyle Sampson’s wonderful little “process” to fire some number of US Attorneys, despite the fact that it was Comey’s responsibility as the number two man in the Department to supervise U.S. Attorneys (they reported directly to him) and that he had been completely in the loop (heck, he WAS the loop) in the two previous USA firing cases. So, this fact now in evidence suggests that the decisions on who should be fired came from the White House (so far, all of the top DOJ officials have professed having no knowledge of or input to the list).
Third, this man was clearly torn between the job he loved and the evil he saw (recall the quote). That was honest emotion I saw when Rep. Sanchez read Comey’s email to one of the fired U.S. Attorney.
Fourth, he completely blew away the notion that these firings were related to poor performance, which leaves only one alternative.
Fifth, I was quite happy with the way Rep. Sanchez and her Democratic colleagues handled the hearing. It was not adversarial, as these things often are when witnesses are from the opposition party. If you didn’t know better, you would think Comey was a Democrat. They asked pertinent questions of Comey’s tenure at Justice and staked out the issues nicely. I do wish someone had called bullshit on Cannon’s “this was a good process” crap.
My guess on why Comey left DOJ: here was an honorable man who repeatedly witnessed dishonorable things (NSA Domestic Spying, Plame, torture, etc.) He did what he could do about it (I believe he got Ashcroft to recuse himself on Plame and we know he forced Abu and Card to visit Ashcroft in the hospital on NSA Domestic Spying), including the masterful appointment of Patrick Fitzgerald, and then left. My sense is that he feels he could have done more (I’m guessing that’s the real reason for his tired appearance and emotional reactions). I think he did what he could. I’m grateful for all such public servants who work for us like Jim Comey did. They used to be the norm.
With this in mind, there are a few follow-up questions I would like Congress to ask Jim Comey:
1. Given your experience with the Department and what you know now, do you believe the process used to fire these U.S. Attorneys (including Black in Guam) was a good one?
2. What would be the expected affects on staff morale, recruitment, and reputation for independence of such a process?
3. What would be the expected affects on prosecutions (notably politically sensitive ones) of such a process?
4. Why is the longstanding policy of the independence of U.S. Attorneys important? Same for the notion that U.S. Attorneys must be seen as nonpolitical (or at least neutral)?
5. What was the substance of your conversations with Kyle Sampson earlier this year?
6. Were you aware of the plan to change the language in the Patriot Act to permit the Attorney General to appoint interim U.S. Attorneys for the term of Congress without Senate confirmation? If so, did you advise against it?
7. Were you aware of the plan to partially or fully delegate the authority for hiring and firing of Schedule C and other non-civil service positions in the Department?
8. Are you aware of a delegation of authority for removing U.S. Attorneys from the President to any other official?
9. Why did you resign from the Department?
10. What substantive disagreements did you have with AG Ashcroft and AG Gonzales?
11. Were you ever asked by AG Gonzales to do anything that you considered to be illegal, unethical or would violate the principles of political neutrality of the Department?
12. Is there anything you wish you had been able to do or say while you were Deputy Attorney General but were unable to do so while in office?
Kathleen @95… ;0)
From Alan Canfora’s (Kent State survivor) Website:
“After reassembling on the field, the Guardsmen seemed to begin to retreat as they marched back up the hill, retracing their previous steps. Members of Troop G, while advancing up the hill, continued to glance back to the parking lot, where the most militant and vocal students were located. The students assumed the confrontation was over. Many students began to walk to their next classes.
As the guard reached the crest of the Blanket Hill, near the Pagoda of Taylor Hall, about a dozen members of Troop G simultaneously turned around 180 degrees, aimed and fired their weapons into the crowd in the Prentice Hall parking lot. The 1975 civil trials proved that there was a verbal command to fire.
A total of 67 shots were fired in 13 seconds. Four students: Allison Krause, Jeffrey Miller, Sandra Scheuer and William Schroeder were killed. Nine students were wounded: Joseph Lewis, John Cleary, Thomas Grace, Robbie Stamps, Donald Scott MacKenzie, Alan Canfora, Douglas Wrentmore, James Russell and Dean Kahler. Of the wounded, one was permanently paralyzed, and several were seriously maimed. All were full-time students.”
http://alancanfora.com/4.html
Section 5: The Sovereignty of the People
The purpose of government is to enable the people of a nation to live in safety and happiness. Government exists for the interests of the governed, not for the governors. As Benjamin Franklin wrote, “In free governments the rulers are the servants and the people their superiors and sovereigns.” The ultimate powers in a society, therefore, rest in the people themselves, and they should exercise those powers, either directly or through representatives, in every way they are competent and that is practicable
TiredFed @ 105
I’m with you on points one through four, but those great follow-up questions of yours are why I disagree on point five. They should have been asked in the hearing, with the cameras rolling. The democrats on the subcommittee did not appear terribly prepared, nor were they coordinated. It felt very scattershot, and represents a blown opportunity.
Did some good information get into the record? Sure. Did the hearing dig deep enough and push hard enough? Not at all.
twolf1 @ 101
And Scooter didn’t do anything wrong, it was an out of control prosecutor.
I really think Israel should drop the “right” to exist…to ISRAEL EXISTS! But Isreal needs to abide by UN resolution 242, 338 and other Un resolutions that they are in violation of.
They need to pull back to the 67 borders, divide Jerusalem etc. They need to sign the NON-Proliferation treaty and open their doors
to inspections. Israel started the arms race in the middle east when Israel was created. Pakistan and India need to be pressured to sign on too!
MUTALLY ASSURED SAFETY..NOT …
MUTUALLY ASSURED DESTRUCTION!
I would put money on it that if the Palestinians could go back to the original and unfair deal that they were offered back in 47 they would take it now.
It’s the environment, stupid
Peterr @ 109
Peterr. that was fast! thanks. JMO on the kabuki nature of Cong hearings. my sense is that an adversarial hearing would have backfired on the Dems in this case. I know only a few of us true wonks will ever check the Congressional record, but maybe we can help spotlight what Comey says in response to more questions.
Tired Fed,
Excellent analysis. I too felt the hearing served to contrast the DOJ under Comey and what it became after he left. Comey is a fine person struggling to do what is right.
mc @98: Yes, Tweety could not resist bringing up Clinton which I fail to see what in the hell that has to do with Republican candidates debating each other on their own positions.
They were like little school boys, sniggering (”Thanks for the bone, Chris!”) about how awful it would be to have Hillary in the WH and taking potshots at Bill.
Don’t get me wrong, I do not relish the idea of her being the nominee, but will these people ever get over their obsession with Clinton? Why is there so much emnity for the man? This is a man who made a point of reaching out to those on the other side of the aisle. He tried to please these bastards. He’s George, Sr.’s bud, fer cryin’ out loud!! And yet they can’t show him the same respect that he has shown them but we’re ALL supposed to worship Reagan as a god. What a pile of pusses.
In all fairness, will it ever occur to anyone in the media to bring this up?? The hatred they have for him is pathological but then Ron Paul was the only sane one out of the whole bunch as far as I could see.
I think the debates could be summed up as follows:
The Fellating of the Reagan Legacy
Subtitle: What Comes Out Is Bile
Kathleen at #95:
I think I once made this argument to maunga, and I’ll make it to you a propos your #79: This rehashing of Israeli-Palestinian history, and even, literally, ancient history, is exhausting, counterproductive and mostly irrelevant, and sometimes has an ugly ring. If a Palestinian and an Israeli — even an Arab and a Jew — sit down to do it I can at least empathize with their passion. But I’m none of those and I think that the last decade or so is enough to understand well enough how the U.S. relationship with Israel has driven our foreign policy, particularly the invasion of Iraq. What I really care about is not Israel, per se. It’s a nation-state behaving as nation-states will, alas — predictably pressing its advantages at the expense of antother people, and, by the same, token, if the U.S. were removed from the strategic equation, Israel would be more likely to reach an advantageous peace with its neighbors. As an anti-war Democrat I care about the Israeli-U.S. relationship and the lobbies that enforce that relationship. I think that most American Jews are on my side politically in wanting an end to neoconservatism, so why get their backs up by chipping at their mythologies? Leave that to historians.
pow wow @ 103
WOW!
oklahoma kiddo at #102:
I don’t understand.
New Thread
Peterr @ 109
hindsight is 20/20, thankfully, there still is a window open :)
Re Comey’s testimony:
I got the impression that the questioning was very much being driven by the Committee’s staff. The Democrats were all asking questions from the same list – one would pick up where the other left off, using the exact same sentence construction, as they pinned down the answers for each fired USAttorney. Remember that the staff has already interviewed Comey privately, and presumably asked many more questions of him.
So the main point of the hearing seemed to be to get on the public record a credible, contrary opinion of the worth of those fired attorneys from one of their former ‘bosses.’ In that regard, it was very successful. I’m sure the purged attorneys were very grateful for Comey’s kind words (which were getting quite a lot of play on NPR and in the media, as far as I could tell yesterday). [Comey completely convinced me with regard to the integrity of Buskupic, for example, about whom I had been uncertain.]
But, in addition, Comey would have been very uncomfortable, I sensed, to have been put on the spot and asked to criticize those he used to work for; he asked to skip a question that indirectly commented on the performance of Gonzales. He seemed to want to stick to facts, not opinions, and I just hope that the staffers have already asked most of the questions that didn’t surface yesterday. Though I do wish Lofgren and other members of the subcommittee who were absent had participated. But it’s an excellent idea to send more questions in, just in case, as TiredFed is doing.
tw3k @ 120
It’s not hindsight — the pre-hearing threads on this hearing (posts by Christy and Looseheadprop; comments by the rest of us) laid out a lot that is in the questions posed by TiredFed. To use the language of this thread, the committee’s sins were sins of omission, not sins of comission.
It didn’t have to be an adversarial hearing, but I’d have appreciated it if the Dems had approached it as a discovery hearing. A lawyer asking the questions at a discovery hearing doesn’t come to the interview without a clear, well organized, systematic plan for questioning the witness.
brendan @ 80
Christian Righters are forming bizarre relationships with both Catholics (Mel Gibson’s “The Passion”) and Jews. Chrisian Righters went gaga for “The Passion” because of all the blood and gore, of course, but also because it laid all the blame on the Jews. They also love the Catholic Church’s position on abortion.
But yes, my own ex-husband, who was a church-going Baptist once said to me flat-out that Baptists hate Catholics. Go figger.
Okay, and then they’re sorta nuts about the Jews (even though they believe all Jews are going to Hell) because of the whole Christian homeland thing and because Jesus was a Jew, although they forget that when convenient.
Of course, Jews who wish to align themselves with these characters for political purposes should be aware of the fact that The Rapture the Righters are salivating for calls for the destruction of the Jewish state, as I think someone else on here astutely pointed out.
I really haven’t been able to get my brain around their positions with Catholics and Jews and the only rational conclusion I can come to is that they will exploit either group to serve their own ends and then hate them in private.
Living in Bob Jones country here and knowing the mindset of such folks, it makes perfect sense. It’s all about them, 24/7.
Pow wow @ 103
IMHO, the problem with deauthorization is that it will simply be vetoed. I have read Big Tent Democrat’s post at TalkLeft, where he argues that the veto is (possibly) unconstitutional, but I see this as similar to the problem of enforcing the will of Congress WRT subpoenas.
In this case, the veto would be issued, and Bush would do his usual “unitary executive” shtick. The Congress would then have to pursue the issue through the courts. Not sure if a bill would have to be passed to do that but could be.
Bottom line, Bush could delay for a long time while people are still dying.
Peterr @ 99
*using my best Piper Laurie in Carrie voice* The sinner!
Brendan much is rehashed here at FDL.
maunga @ 69
Yes!
400 years of violence and genocidal policies against “Indians” in the “New World” sink out of our awareness.
Here on the land of the First Peoples, we have a lot of forgetting to do every day.
Strong undercurrents of hate and violence…and the pious excuses for both.
MayDaze @ 124 -
Yes, Professor Glennon’s testimony makes clear that Congress needs to pass such a deauthorization bill with a veto-proof majority in order to prevail. That’s why Republican support for the effort is vital. [Glennon also points out that the effort to end the fighting in Vietnam took as long as it did, for the same reason - because a veto-proof majority was required in Congress to revoke its very unwise grant of authority to the President.]
It seems achingly clear that our enforced Two-and-Only-Two Political Party system has stymied the intent of the Founders to make war easier to end than to begin… With only two political parties in our federal government, and the need to belong to one of them in order to get on the ballot for federal office, there will always be one faction in Congress trying to undermine the independence of the Legislative Branch. Because in order to “support” the head of your faction’s political party when he happens to be the head of the Executive Branch, with enough minority or majority clout for your faction in Congress (and enough scorn for your oath of office) the Legislative Branch is in effect made subservient to the Executive Branch, when members of one political party care more about their party power than our constitutional form of government (a la today’s Republican Party).
But the effort to end the occupation of Iraq, even though it requires a veto override, must nevertheless be made. It shouldn’t be the only course of action taken by Congress at this time, I’d agree. But I think a veto by the President of a majority vote in Congress to clearly and absolutely revoke the President’s (only) statutory authority to conduct the armed conflict in Iraq, would be a very loaded veto indeed. It at least puts the spotlight where it belongs: on the Constitution and the role of Congress vs. the naked exercise and abuse of power by the Republican political party, in open defiance of the duty to country and Constitution owed by elected public officeholders in our federal legislature.
Brendan @ 116
I agree with you, but there is no chance of its happening without changes in perception amongst all Americans.
It would be truly wonderful if we could achieve a realist Administration which looked at which way up the US’s ‘bread is buttered’ and jettisoned the US’s economically dangerous one-eyed support for Israel, but, to get there…
Unless and until the citizenry have at least a gut feeling that this one-eyed support for our economic colony is misguided and inaccurate there will be no isolating of The Lobby, so no progress will be possible.
Without a sufficient number of the population’s understanding that what is promoted as history is in fact propaganda and fiction that will not happen. Palestine rightly belongs to its indigenous people, the Palestinians, and not to immigrants artificially supported to live there.
Once there, and the US stops propping up the Israel economy every year, and demands return of all the loans, Israel has no reason to bother to make any accommmodation and will continue its apartheid, genocide and land-stealing.
Those of us who are committed on the subject are gradually raising awareness that Israel has been refusing to apply Security Council Resolutions,with the US’s assistance for longer than Saddam was in power.
Quoting the Sec Council Resolutions in question focuses the targets on what we are saying. Personally I believe the territorial negotiations should begin with GA181!
I had dinner last week with Israeli-born friends of Yemeni origin who left because of the racism directed against them by the Ashkenazim (violent) Russian immigrants.
pow wow @ 128
Thanks for the response here in EPU-land. I agree that something should be done, just think that if they can’t override the recent veto it’s that much more unlikely on the deauthorization.
I do like the concept of 2-months worth of funding and making Bush come back again. Gives more time for people to see that this (surge) just isn’t working and more support for an end.
Kathleen @ 71
Hi Kathleen, and all,
We’ve got a Catholic household here and your story is, unfortunately, way too common. It’s like, thank you for giving us this opportunity to condemn you. The attitude I most despise in religious organizations and political ones is “being ‘correct’ is more important than being caring and lifegiving.”
As a mother of two daughters, I lean over to editorialize on the most fiery priest railing about abortion. He is formidable. I tell my girls it’s a complicated issue, you need to do your own research, and come to your own decisions about what you think. I often challenge what we’ve heard back at home, so my kids know it’s ok to, gasp, question. I know the Jesuits would agree with this philosophy.
IOW, it’s our responsibility to think critically and not follow blindly. I feel this way about political parties too. It’s not disloyal to think for your self.
Personally I see traditional religious organizations as manmade institutions that are imperfect. It’s human nature to make any gathering hierarchical, etc. The mistake is substituting any representative of God for God Himself. God has given me free will so I can decide for myself how to vote.
Peterr @ 121
Very good point. Thank you.
Oh! Look! It’s Senator John McCain!
http://atcc-torcc.org/St_Michael.gif
I would love to tell Bishop Burke to go out and get himself a real job so he can pay back the La Crosse Wisconsin Diocese a little of the money that is poof…gone. Unless he can tell us which mattress he hid it under or where he buried it we can only surmise he took it with him. But PLEASE, have him send it. We don’t want him back here again. EVER !