Watching the Republican candidates “debate” — or rather, respond separately to questions — on MSNBC last night, I was struck by how few serious problems the country has. The candidates were quick to remind us we don’t have enough vetoes of spending bills, but these men all assured us they love nothing more than vetoing Democratic spending bills; that problem will be solved the moment any of these men becomes President. With a few more border fences to keep out those brown people, things are pretty good in America. Republicans are still dreaming it is 1980, the world is as simplistic as Ronald Reagan believed and all we need is to be optimistic.
You’d think questions about Iraq would be problematic for these men, but except for Paul, the lone non-interventionist, no one suggested that invading Iraq was a mistake; there was only a problem in execution — so criticizing the execution was safe territory. We just need to keep fighting; changing course or strategy is not necessary, because as McCain observed, we already have a new General and new strategy. And because Iraq was not a mistake, there are no lessons that apply to Iran, so we can be as belligerent towards them as we want.
If you listen to these men, it appears we do not have a credibility problem with the rest of the world, so we don’t need to worry about how we will restore America’s honor or prestige or repair alliances or international institutions. Torture was not mentioned, nor the Military Commissions Act, with its denial of habeas corpus (except for Paul), nor restrictions on attorneys, nor use of secret evidence or evidence extracted through torture. Kidnapping and renditions weren’t mentioned either, so I guess Canada, Europe and the Middle East are not upset about that; there was no mention of secret prisons, nor Guantanamo, nor indefinite detention without charges or trials, nor warrantless wiretapping, misuse of national security letters by the FBI, and so on. Only Paul, now just a curious anachronism in his own party, a true believer in the limited government credo of what used to be the Republican Party but not longer is, could offer a few lines about the continuing expansion of executive powers — and then only in reference to Terry Schiavo.
No one brought up problems at the Justice Department, nor concerns about politicizing justice, or interfering with prosecutions. Matthews asked about Karl Rove, but no one took the opportunity to say anything bad about Karl. When asked which of the Bush mistakes (unnamed) he would avoid, Huckabee said he’d avoid sending US jobs overseas.
According to McCain, Republicans lost the 2006 elections because Congress spent too much money. It had nothing to do with the invasion and occupation of Iraq, the loss of over 3000 US troops and no end in sight. No one said it’s a mess. In fact, Huckabee said it’s too early to give the Administration a grade on the war. Republican corruption was also not a factor in the elections, and apparently doesn’t matter now either; after all, Democrats keep money in their freezers, so it is a bipartisan sin.
The candidates were mostly opposed to abortions, but some were ambivalent about how much they’d impose that view. No one took the opportunity to criticize the most recent Supreme Court decision and McCain couldn’t wait to tell us what swell Justices Roberts and Alito are.
They seemed more united in their willingness to kill radical islamists anywhere they try to set up their caliphate. If was curious liistening to these Christianists castigate proselytizing religions, but Romney was clear about his willingness as a Christian to kill Islamists. And Osama bin Laden learned last night that McCain will follow him to the gates of Hell. These are belligerent men who think they know their enemies.
The candidates split on stem cell research, but they were unanimous in their opposition to cloning, so I can’t understand why they basically all sound alike (again, Paul excepted).
According to these men, the President’s tax cuts for the rich are fine and can be made permanent, and there were many proposals to cut different taxes further. But those Democrats need to be stopped from pork barrel spending, because the budget is out of control. Drunken sailors came in for praise by comparison. There was no support for increasing revenues, even to pay for their glorious war.
There was a split vote, by show of hands, on belief in evolution, a clear sign that US educational standards are dismal; Crooks and Liars captured the moment,. Only McCain was asked directly; he said he believed in evolution, but also saw “the hand of God” in the Grand Canyon. Darwin said little about the Grand Canyon that I recall.
After the “debate,” MSNBC’s panelists tried to hype the disagreements, but they missed the fact that these men share a common mindset detached from where the rest of the country is. These people do not live on the same planet as the rest of us. When they wake up and look out the window, they do not see what we see.
They do not see a nation angry at them about the war nor shamed by a government that sanctions torture. With their Reaganesqe optimism, they do not see families struggling with health care costs, job security, retirement security, and college tuition. They don’t seem to worry whether the government is doing enough to protect us from unsafe working conditions, unsafe products, unsafe foods and drugs. They apparently don’t see global warming as a national security or economic threat. American democracy is not threatened; the Constitution is not under siege, and Americans don’t hate the Bush regime for what it has done to our liberties (Paul excepted). Attacks on the rights of women, gays, and immigrants and anyone who looks like the “enemy” are non-issues.
The collective denial shown by these men was even more surprising because one of the first questions asked concerned the fact that about only 22 percent of the American people think the country is on the right track, but you’d never know it from listening to these men. And because they seem so completely disconnected from what the American people believe, there is no possibility that any of these men could successfully address the nation’s concerns. Last night, the Republican Party declared itself to be in denial and irrelevant except as an out of touch opposition party with no ideas left for any of the hard questions of governnance.
And the moderator? Chris Matthews was his usual self, asking lots of questions and occasionally following up, but not often enough. To be fair, having to deal with 10 candidates is probably impossible. But I have to wonder how someone who prides himself on provoking debate was not able to frame questions that would elicit more of the deep chasm between what these men were saying and what the majority of the American people think.
Poll after poll indicates that the beliefs expressed last night are consistently out of step with the American public. Nearly 70 percent of Americans think the country is headed in the wrong direction. It’s not just that Americans disapprove of the job President Bush is doing; probably half of the country is angry, deeply angry at the Bush/Cheney regime and the Republicans who supported them without question for six years. And after a few more months of investigative revelations, they’re going to be even angrier. But last night, these men pretended that that was not true. Are they that clueless? Or that cynical?
Several of the questions from VanDeHei seemed superficial; did he choose them? But those were not as bad as when Chris Matthews gave every candidate an opportunity to slam Bill and/or Hillary Clinton. I’m no fan of the Clintons, but that was an unprincipled, gratuitous cheap shot. Firedoglake could teach Matthews a lesson in fairness.
KO helped the apres-debate discussion, which was otherwise a bust. They missed the great divide between these men and the majority of Americans. We needed Jane and Christy, Josh and Marcy, Atrios and Swopa et al on the screen explaining reality. What a difference that would make.
More media coverage from the New York Times, the Boston Globe, and WaPo.
Related posts:
- Ensign: Fox’s Non-Denial Denial
- RedState Fundraising Drive for Wingnut Senatorial Candidates: Epic Fail
- New Gallup Poll Finds Republican Party Less Popular Than Russia, China, Venezuela
- The Media’s Generous Double Standard For Republican Extremists
- Online Health Care Townhalls Sunday at FDL: Ohio Democratic Senate Candidates





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S C A R E C R O W !!!
scarecrow, another great read
your posts are like fine dining, you don’t want to take the next bite because then you’ll be closer to the end of your meal.
(I just invented that and will use it in my first book if I remember)
anyway, as far as habeas corpus, when the question is finally asked to a retardlican it has to be framed correctly;
it can’t be asked;
“what do you think about suspending habeas corpus?”
it has to be asked;
“do you think the president should be able to invent any new law he wants to justify arresting any person he doesn’t like so he could charge that person with a crime that didn’t exist and who broke no law?
do you think if a person is innocent they should get the oportunity to prove it, or are they to spend their lives in jail without hope to prove they committed no crime?
do you think a person should be able to know why they were arrested and should be able to prove the evidence is wrong?
do you think a person claims they are guilty in order to stop being tortured is guilty?
THAT’S the way habeas questions need to be framed when talking to a retardlican
Joe-Bama!
Good morning, pups!
The erosion God created the Grand Canyon.
With her foot.
The way I see it, their complete disconnect from reality is good for Dems. If the Republican candidates keep spewing drivel, we have a much better chance of taking back the White House.
-mistress
A dozen fluffy white boys. Two questioners and ten podium frozen answerers. And they wonder why their audience is not thrilled.
Great analysis…
Out of touch…
Duncan would bomb Iran tomorrow…
I found Romney, our absentee Governor, to be the most deplorable and twith his most useless piece of happy talk… his comment on Fitzy was
just disgusting…
How can anyone vote Repug…
You hit the nail — they wake up to a different
world… it is sad….
Jack
Wonder what KO really thinks about these
plastic pukes…
Peace or the idea of peace is unacceptable to the rethug base. Every one of them knows that no candidate stands a chance of winning the nomination if even a hint of being for non-intervention should waft from him.
klyde @ 9
my new slogan, a good slogan for any democrat too, plaguerized from you so thanx;
“the idea of peace is repugnant to republicans”
cool
UNfounding fathers….
Wonderful post, Scarecrow…a small typo to note: “American’s disapprove” sh be “Americans disapprove.” Do we ever!
Re Matthews’ Hillary obsession… he’s Irish. They hold grudges.
And speakin’ of the Irish, as my Irish Mr. S. noted: Isn’t it a shame that there are still people in this country who hate the Irish… pressed ‘em into cannon fodder in the Civil War as they came off the ships from the auld sod. Now, Secret Service protection assigned to O’Bama. ;-)
Some things never change. But some do…and we’ll be part of that change in ‘08. Any one of our candidates will be better for America than this pack of phony cronies.
For the segments of the debate I could stomach (I think 10 minute doses at most), I thought Matthews was a total tool. How about making these guys defend their records. Why not ask McCain about all the times he has said we need six more months to see how Iraq is going? The notion that the USA scandal didn’t come up is mind boggling.
I’m surprised Tweety didn’t show footage af Bush in a flight suit and ask all candidates, by show of hands, if the package was still intact.
The Clinton question was Beltway insiderism at it’s worst – a nudge-nudge-wink-wink among the good old boys. Jeez.
Disconnected from reality? Or lying.
Republicans have proven that they are lying, corrupt, pandering, hypocritical, souless freaks.
This is the Terry Schiavo party. The Jack Abramoff party. The Halliburton party. The Katrina party.
You want to know why spending has gone up under Mr Tax Cut Bush? Because he’s done what the Repugs have been trying to do for years – contract out everything. But it didn’t work because all those companies got into the pockets of the Repugs and got no-bid, no-oversight contracts for two, three, ten times what they worth and half the time didn’t deliver on them. It’s been a total boondoggle with money going straight from the National Debt into the pockets of Bush supporters.
Georgesimian @ 14
Well said…
where in the hell is everyone ? was there a flag burning I wasn’t invited to ???
seriously Scarecrow, thank you for watching so I don’t have to – I expected it to be anemic on substance but jeepers
it’ll be interesting to see various TraMed reviews from last night – will half of them catch what you caught ?
and has anyone seen overnight viewership numbers ?
Georgesimian @ 13
bingo
multiple choice I guarantee even 90 percent of people who claimed they were republicans before this administration would select “b” for sure
Good morning everyone. Georgeous day in the Boston ares.
perris — good questions.
webmistress @ 6
I’d agree; I just wish the media would say that instead of the silliness we heard last night; Scarborough thought Romney sounded great– Jeez.
My job just was “eliminated” The company I worked for was owned By Bain capital…Thats how Romney made his money…Bain seems to be off everyones radar screen…They run their companies using the Walmart business model
The company I worked for is being run by another Bain Boy…
Hmmm, a “national identity card,” but only for foreigners.
Scottie: “Cap’n the stupid receptors canna handle nae mar!”
It’s been a total boondoggle with money going straight from the National Debt into the pockets of Bush supporters. Georgesimian@14
pillage and plunder…pillage and plunder…
these guys are a bunch of pirates. Send Bushbeard and Co to the stockades.
In some ways, it would be fun if Hillary won and Bill took up vegetable gardening on the White House lawn. Tweety would have an stroke.
coffee’s ready – hold out your cups…
over and over, I am so struck by what a bunch of old white men this is… doesn’t look anything like my world.
perris @ 17
I have no problem calling the Bush/Cheney regime thoroughly dishonest; McCain admits he has to BS to get elected. But except for McCain and Romney, who were blatantly and cynically pandering to every rightwing nonsense, the others came across as sincere — they really believe what they were saying and just see the world differently.
Good morning from L.A.
Excellent post & “debate” synopsis, Scarecrow. That really does sum it up, I’m afraid. Paternalism reigned, except for Paul. And not a word of Katrina- ignoring all those still scrambling to recover while coping w/the sluggish & fragmented Federal response.
The evolution question- how embarrassing for the U.S. In other countries those raising their hands to deny evolution would be laughed off the stage.
These are the guys who want to do the thinking for America…
I didn’t watch it…and no I’m not ashamed in the least. I KNEW that these guys would be too chickenshit to take on Bush and I KNEW that Tweety would ask a cheap shot question about Bill (BTW someone ought to tell Matthews that, if he had the balls and the money to put that question in a poll, rather than laughter, he’d probably get a 60plus% positive answer)
But I am kinda curious. On Politico, there were two questions that were in the top 5 questions to be asked of the candidates. One had to do with Padilla and the other with waterboarding. Politico, and its guys, were all over MSNBC telling us how the top ten questions would be asked. So, did they ask those two questions?
Roger Simon had unclean thoughts about Mitt Romney & his SIX PACK!
Blogwhore contains suggested new Roger Simon of POlitco “Nickname”
cbl @ 16
I hadn’t planned to watch; it was just on while I was trying to figure out what to write about. I started a completely different post, but kept being distracted by all the bombast. I thought McCain was going to have a seizure chasing OBL.
OldCoastie @ 23
I’ll have some, thank you. Also, I look just like them.
I believe that you analyzed the “debate” fairly well. That’s so especially since you singled out Ron Paul over and over; his answers were kind of exceptional, given the group we had. He reminds me of REAL conservatives that I knew in, say, college, with whom you could have HONEST disagreements. Differing viewpoints, ya’ know, but honest ones. I think it’s important to discriminate in that way; the so-called republicans of this era just don’t have that sort of mind.
I think you were a little hard on Matthews. He was particularly good with Giuliani on the abortion issue, forcing him to conced (in almost a whisper!) that, yes, as mayor of NYC (my home) he was…(gasp!) pro-choice…. Still hate the man, but hope he’s the GOP nominee, as he stands no choice, nationwide.
-MS
Marie Roget– that’s right! Katrina didn’t happen. I missed that one.
I decided to pass on the fun evening–spittin’ Tweety and ten utterly clueless Republics salivating to be the next dictator.
The tone of the debate was set by the first question: “How do we get back to Reagantopia?”
I guess you all failed to see the 10 reasoned Americans compared to the eight shrill dwarfs the week before. The individuals on stage were ready to Govern and have actually done it. The eight last week were wanna be legislators who had no idea about the practical realities of running the Executive Branch.
Michael — I agree with you about Chris Matthews. He’s a mixed bag. He can do a decent job of asking questions, and he can be a bulldog on the issues he’s interested in. I’d certainly rather have Chris than Brian Williams. But I still think the Clinton question was out of bounds. If this were a debate between the nominees of both parties, it would be fair to ask what each thought about the views of the other. But singling out Clinton and then walking down the row to let each Republican take a shot was unfair.
Morning. Beeauutiful day here in CT. Cherry trees blooming, green all around.
On that another note.*Horror movie music starting* I praise all FDLers who were brave enough to watch the Republikan debate. I was so scared by the unity of answers among a lot of them on stem cell, and abortion (with the exception of the Northeastern flip-floppers), having visions of a “Brave New Velt” future with Stepford wives crossed with banned modern art, ferrets, crossed with postapocalyptic horror movies and presidents who praise jeebus while trying to stare hypnotically into the eyes of “foes” like the president of Iran, because that’s what Reagan did, I felt faint. Really faint and ill. It takes fortitude to do reconaissance in the Republikan arena and I congratulate you all.
How the mighty do fall….
This line-up reminds me of the position the Dems found themselves in during the 80s. The fear mongering goes but only so far. Most people now just go numb when they hear it. Oh, they’ll agreeably go along with the notion that “terrorism is a serious issue” but as soon as the lips have been served, they’d just as soon change the subject to something more presssing, like gas prices or sub-prime mortgages or even the merits and demerits of ferrets.
Oops, meant, “stands no chance, nationwide.”
-MS
Thank the Goddess we didn’t have Tweety moderating the Dems debate! He would have asked questions like “Do you think America should surrender to the terrists?”
Scarecrow – it’s not just that they are old white guys, it is that collectively they are such a herd of white guys (specially since they seem to be all wearing black suits as a uniform)… there is no where I go in a day that I see such an unremittingly oppressive looking bunch… kinda scary to me.
you are always welcome to my coffee ;-)
Oh sorry, forgot about Paul. A lonely peep among statues.
Instead of consulting Queer Eye, this bunch seems to ape the sartorial splendor/dress code of the Nation of Islam body guard detail.
Scarecrow, you’ll get no disagreement about almost ANY pundit/interviewer’s treatment of Clinton. Gets a raw deal all around (and I know you’re not a big fan of C, either – very fair minded of you to point that out!).
-MS
I want out of Iraq now. I don’t care about face saving. Give Iraq back to the Iraqi’s. George Bush is a poster child for keeping guns out of the hands of children.
Ship of fools, comes to mind. Dangerous fools.
How come MSNBC doesn’t have a poll for this debate?
Digby’s got it… she musta had the same creepy feeling I had:
I have to say I could only stand to watch short bits of the debate. The whole ’scriptiness’ of the thing down to having the debate in the Regan Library was just plain disturbing.
I strongly suggest to all FDL readers to take a look at the French Presidential debate (TV2.fr). Forget whether you know the language just watch how the 2 candidates engage each other as well as the moderators. No doubt their setting was scripted as well, but for comparison’s sake it is important to see what other countries expect from their potential leaders.
1,506 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Scarecrow and the Firepup Patriots:
I’m gettin’ scared about the ‘08 election. Clearly the Repo-fascists are irrelevant but I’m afraid that there are only 2 Democrats, Gore and Edwards, who can make a difference in the White House even with a Democratic majority in both houses. That’s why I’m gunna spend my money and sweat on expanding Democratic majorities in the Congress.
If Mrs. Clinton, Obama or any of the other second tier candidates win the White House, it will be worse than havin’ one of the Repos because with Democratic majorities in Congress the damage can be limited…but if Mrs. Clinton or another of the wholly owned corporatists wins the White House, the Democratic Party will be poisoned for ever.
Yes, kidz, I said it…Clinton or Obama or ANY of the candidates other than Edwards or Gore (who ain’t a candidate YET) would be worse than a Repo-fascist. And the “debate” last night??!!!… it was worse than watchin’ American Idol on bad acid.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE GOD DAMNED AMMUNITION GOD IS GETTIN’ REAL IMPATIENT!!!
Damn, I just went out to get the Times and these guys look even MORE Stepfordy in the print edition. All white, all in the same suit
I’m waiting to see the ratings for the event. The Dems got about 2.1 million viewers. I’ll be surprised if the Reps get 1.5.
Hmmm. If they nominate Giuliani, do you think there’s a good chance of the party splitting, since the Fundamentalists will be confused by Giuliani’s “position” on abortion? Let’s ask Chris Matthews.
Front paged on KOS is this possible Democratic plan.
What do you think?
Doesnt sound too bad to me or will Hillarys plan work?
Michael in Park Slope @ 30
[Waving from Ft Greene!]
Eggzactly!
I have had the same thought! It would be wonderful if the Republican base got him nominated. Just think of the entertainment value. The baggage this guy carries is unf*cking real. Just think of the Ads featuring Donna Hanover standing outside Gracie Mansion in tears as she responds to being served her divorce papers via a news conference on the steps of City Hall. Photo ops with Bernie Kerik, convicted felon and fellow adulterer. It would just get better and better!
Knowing Rudy as we here in NYC do, it is hard to imagine that someone in the RNC didn’t arrange to secret him away to an undisclosed location. But that is the Rudy we all know and hate; arrogant, deluded, shameless, and about as narcissistic as it is possible to be. While it is certain that plenty of people have warned him that his baggage is fatal, it is just as certain that his own addiction to his own “greatness” will prevail in his own mind.
Manaloney. Is it just me or does it feel like we woke in the wrong decade? Something makes it feel like 1968. I remember a friend in high school saying that if Eugene McCarthy didn’t get on the ticket, she was going to move to Canada.
And another thing…my thirteen year old was asking me the other day about the differences between the Democrats and the Republicans. I just need to show him the photos of the two debates. Yikes!
you’ll laugh, you’ll cry
if you happen to have a dead ender for a congresscritter – go to their site to see if they have a ‘blog’ or opinion page – I swear you’ll think you climbed into the wayback machine with the DOA, out of touch rhetoric they’re using these days
mine, who voted with Bush 97% of the time, never met an earmark he didn’t like, and was there to see the Fed Govt grow by 45% in the first 4 years of the republican majority, actually types “tax and spend liberals” on his page – oh hell, look at this
and for some reason, none of my responses are ever posted on the site ;)
The “Republican Gang of Ten”. This is the cream of the crop? The best of the best the GOP has to offer?
NorskeFlamethrower @ 49
Oh sh*t, after seeing parts of this debate, I am willing to stand in rain or snow again at whatever polling place and whathaveyou for the Democratic nominee. That said and done I am leaning toward Edwards and praying for Gore to come back.
Scarecrow @ 24
McCain sold out the day he signed the torture bill. From that day forward, he jumped on the Bush money train, supporting him in exchange for the support of the military industrial lobby.
I love that Romney is running on a flip-flop is good campaign after what happened to Kerry a few years ago.
It doesn’t matter that the others sounded honest. Their view of the world may be different, but it is warped – based on cherry picking through history and current events to support arguments that have been proven to not work. When has trickle down economics ever worked? Never. It’s easy to say that you think fighting terrorism with an army is a great idea if you see the entire Islamic population of the world as your enemy, but that’s a racist, warped view of the world. The lying in their arguments goes back to the roots.
snowbird42 @ 51
Could requiring the President to report back to congress be a challenge to his Signing Statements?
Fred Thompson must be smiling today.
oh mui, exxxcellent
Edwards is impressive.
snowbird42 @ 51
Sounds pretty good, IF it’s coupled with a resolution to GET OUT OF IRAN at the end of the two months. Then, that should be voted on and submitted to the WH for a likely veto. Point is, keep the GOP having to defend their position and, thereby, ratchet up the pressure on the recalcitrant ones as the ‘08 elections get nearer. No?…
-MS
Someone needs to photoshop that picture with all of them wearing rose colored glasses.
GOP…….how they do IT……
BREAKING: Colo. elections IT mgr. selling “voter data” to GOP candidates
http://scoop.epluribusmedia.or…..13841/7860
“An IT manager for Colorado’s state-wide voter database has been selling “targeted voter data” through a “GOP Campaign help” web site at PoliticalLiveWires.com. According to his online resume, Dan Kopelman is currently “Elections Technology Manager” with “oversight and guidance of the State Wide Voter Database” in the office of Colorado’s newly elected Republican Secretary of State Mike Coffman………….”
I could only watch for two minutes on MSNBC’s website before I became disgusted. Then I tried reading the transcript on the NY Times site, but only managed 5 of 21 pages. Two words sum up this crowd: militarism and bigotry.
Murray Waas has a new article up on the AG scandal.
Ten white men. With old ideas.
To Woodhall Hollow: HI!!! to Ft. Greene from Park Slope!
-MS
cbl @ 61
Merci! It’s an open source quote. My gift to all progressives for use against the Republikkkan party.
mui @ 41
It’s funny you should say that…I think the rest of the country feels that way as well. I think the aggravation of the country to all the reminiscing and sniffing-eachothers-dudesweat has started to sour people…I mean, those of us not yelling and screaming already.
Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton proposed Thursday that Congress repeal the authority it gave President Bush in 2002 to invade Iraq, injecting presidential politics into the Congressional debate over financing the war.
Mrs. Clinton’s proposal brings her full circle on Iraq — she supported the war measure five years ago — and it sharpens her own political positioning at a time when Democrats are vying to confront the White House.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 67
ten white men
ten white men
see how they run
see how they run
…
Oklahoma kiddo @ 72
Well good, the further she meets the 70% the better chance we have of having a real debate among Dem hopefuls.
Ronald Reagan became president even though he worked with chimps in B movies.
Arnold Schwarzenegger played a murderous robot, and that didn’t keep him from becoming governor.
So can “Law & Order” actor and former Sen. Fred Thompson (R-Tenn.) become the first presidential candidate with this credit? Thompson played a white supremacist, spewing anti-Semitic comments and fondling an autographed copy of “Mein Kampf” on a television drama 19 years ago.
from the latimes.
The ten white men. An example of what’s wrong with America.
Elizabeth B. @ 71
Yeah, I think they really have selective memories about Raygun, and think they can resurrect some kind of “Daddy knows best” feeling in the country. They need only look the part. Right Fineman?
Watched about 1/2 hour (all I could take, even when yelling at the tube).
Matthews (as silly as he is) was better than Williams.
Something I noticed that I think is telling: McCain had a couple speeches obviously memorized (or maybe fed into his ear, Bush-style). And just as he reached the dramatic climax, he faltered, fouled up his words. Now maybe he was trying to think of how much time he had left and lost his place, but it’s also possible he knows he’s toast and someplace deep inside he’s just given up.
Romney seemed best at the “projection” thing, Guiliani next. Huckabee was less of hick than I’ve seen before, and looked like he might actually care about the environment. At least that was the only thing genuine I saw except for Ron Paul.
GO EDWARDS!
Another reason Republicans will want to throw Gonzales out:
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCul…..0502b.html
I vote both. And I vote.
I could only take bits and pieces of the Debate. Scarecrow, excellent assessment. On the positive side, it allows for the Dems to document just how far out of touch the (R’s) are with reality.
I saw were someone upstairs asked about a MSNBC poll. According to Tucker this morning, Ron Paul won the Debate according to MSNBC’s online poll. Sorry, no linky.
Did not watch the debate but followed it on FDL. No surprises whatsoever. Paul comes across as the only one with even half a clue but since he’s not into war-mongering, he stands no chance of getting the nomination. Interesting candidate, but a little TOO libertarian for me.
CNN has had a Quick Vote up since last night with the question, “Did the GOP debate change your mind for the better about any candidate?” Yes or No
Nos are leading 81%-19%
Hmm MSNBC rate the candidates. You don’t say.
IrishJim @ 81
I heard that poll result last night; wouldn’t that be a kick?
Badwater @ 60
Fred Thompson is a good man. He’ll beat any Dem now in or thinking about the race.
I am so ashamed of having my state’s reputation dragged through the mud by former “Governor” Mitt Romney. Tied for first with the other 9 for “Emptiest suit on the stage.” [Added in edit: or off, now including Fred “almost as senile as Ronnie” Thompson! :) ]
It was sadly a bunch of middle-age white
aliensboys not inhabiting this earth…they all reminded me of Bush Sr. in his re-election efforts for President — from another generation passed and extremely out of touch with the rest of the world. America responded aptly too — Let’s hope America does th same in ‘08.And the Clinton question was a pure old-boys-club question from the lips of inside-the-beltway, white-bread Tweety.
Overall, the little I saw was hard to stomach…
Scarecrow @ 84
Ron Paul is neck and neck with Mitt Romney on the online poll. If you scroll down you can vote too. Giuliani is winning “who avoided the questions.” There’s also another poll that opens with a window to the right.
well, I guess that’s a question of taste. Do you like a moderator who throws vapid softballs to Republicand, or an moderator who thinks “haircut” questions are relevant to the Democratic debate.
Thank you, Scarecrow: that’s close to an Anti-Republican Manifesto.
Thank you for watching it for me, too. This Old (ish) White Man hopes that not all of us will be tarred and featherd just bcause of this particular group. I still think Hillary is Unelectable because we might all accept her, but the Swing voters will almost certainly not do so. Obama may be Lovely but his inexperience is leading him to try to be all things to everyone, which, coupled to his dangerous inexperience and lack of knowledge internationally renders him too unelectable.
So we are likely to be left with Another White Man, but one who is electable, — Gore, Edwads or Richardson.
p.lukasiak @ 89
Tough choices.
A poll according to (it disgusts me to even click on it)the drudge report:
http://www.drudgereport.com/
cathy @ 92
Hmmm looks like Drudge-Bots are rooting for Mitt Romney.
Huckabee suprised me yet again as coming off as a real person who answers questions straight up.
He and Ron Paul both remind me of people I could/would like, even if I completely disagreed with them, and would never vote for.
It’s probably the fact that they don’t seem to be hypocrites or the type that pander and posture. You can see that they are idealists.
As for Fred Thompson, I think he’s a bit of a coward for not getting out there with the others, as if he’s above it all, or is waiting for others to crash and burn.
p.lukasiak @ 89
Actually, I like a moderator who says “shut up” when they run over. Williams never did that.
What if they held a dog show, and only poodles came?
snowbird42 @ 52
I like it. AS the “surge” gets older, it’s tougher for Bush to argue to “give it time to work”. Getting rid of the pork will make it harder for Pelosi to herd the cats, though.
Hillary’s plan is DOA as far as actually doing anything (but I admit it sounds good, the whole point). Bush would just veto it.
Scarecrow @ 58
I think Ron Paul will definetly get a spike in his poll numbers. He has been gaining some traction here in Iowa. Iowans tend to have a bit of a libetarian streak though.
The Claremont Institute, a conservative California think tank, has announced that Rumsfeld would receive its “Statemanship” award at a Nov. 17 gala. The think tank, founded in 1979, says its mission “is to restore the principles of the American Founding to their rightful, preeminent authority in our national life.” It wants to do that by putting in place a “limited and accountable government that respects private property, promotes stable family life, and maintains a strong defense.”
Gunga Djinn @ 96
Or Chihuahuas?
I was thinking half way through the debate that there should be a drinking game involved. Every time Saint Ronnie was mentioned…
wasabi @ 101
At least that would be a party…if you had to wait for Dubya to be mentioned, you’d be sitting there stone cold sober.
The only Republican I find worrisome as a candidate is Fred Dalton Thompson.
wasabi @ 101
Yeah, with a double-shot for when Ghouliani said, (turgid tone): (paraphrase) I would just look into the president of Iran’s eyes, just like Reagan and say tear down this wall Mr. Gorbachev, or something like that. Puuuuke.
AnnieW @ 102
Of course. How obvious. Here were ten Republicans who could not mention that two men named Bush had been President for 10 years
wasabi @ 101
So you wanna get really drunk, eh?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 99
’sfunny OKK, but I read that as “American FoundLing” … as in “Victory has a thousand fathers, defeat is a foundling” If U will :)
Tnx for helping, Rummy… Feh! on ya
Wait one candidate got asked whether he was a compassionate conservative like Bush, and replied yes.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 102
no sh?t, like we need more drama.
Thanks, Scarecrow!
Chris Matthews played T-Ball with these clowns, while Brian Williams was acting like goddam Hedda Hopper brought back from the dead: His questions were consistently both irrelevant and vicious (not to mention stupid).
I found this link at the News and Observer in NC that gives a scorecard. It has a Bush-O-Meter and a Praise Reagan category. I thought it was cleverly done. Here is the Link
mui @ 108
It doesn’t count if the name “Bush” came from the question.
mui @ 108
Yeah, but that was a question…the candidate didn’t bring it up.
So, do these wannabe’s think the American people are dumb? Don’t answer that.
In the meantime, it is becoming clearer that the WH went into serious denial when Nancy Pelosi visited Syria, inspiring Cheney to label it “bad behavior” as if he was lecturing a six-year old child.
Now, hard on Pelosi’s heels comes Condi and her own sojourn to Syria, so it becomes clear that all along, the WH gang were furious at Pelosi, a Democrat of all things, for upstaging them. (Several Republicans Congressfolks visited Syria around the same time as Pelosi, and not a peep out of the WH.)
Just the other day, Bush himself invoked the Baker-ISG study group recommendations to talk with Syria, and this after referring to Baker’s study using a metaphor for shit.
Such gratitude towards the consigliere who put him in the White House (via the Supreme Court decision on Bush v. Gore)!
Rice visits Syria
1,506 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Firepup Patriots:
Mrs. Clinton’s proposal to rescind the war authorization is tackin’ back into the wind and is far too little and far too late…this is a great example of why she should never be allowed as close to executive power as the White House master bedroom ever again. And further, it undermines Pelosi and Reid’s efforts to tie a short noose around the Chimpenfuer.
Rescinding’ the authorization does nothing to solve the problem of establishing a withdrawal plan that is realistic and adequately funded. It is a smoke screen to divert the energy of anti-war politics into a political statement. It isolates the Democrats and opens ‘em up to charges of abandoning the troops. And it diverts attention to a debate that is moot…ending the war in Iraq can only be accomplished by specifically addressing it through funding measures or lack of them.
This is another example of why Mrs. Clinton should never be allowed to manage a rock garden let alone a country of 300 million people.
KEEP THE FAITH AND LEARN WHO THE ENEMY IS!!
S.O.S. from MA @ 100
Or Chihuahuas?
Would it need a national identity card?
Phoenix Woman @ 110
Good morning, PW. I see you’re all set for the top of the hour.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 103
You know OK, I agree. Except for one thing. Being a typical “do as I say, not as I do” sort of guy, he’s been married multiple times and current wife is at least 30 years younger than him and is an aging Hollywood starlet type. I’m just not sure how well that’s going to go over. And presidential spouses, when it comes down to it, do make a difference to some voters (as we well know). Just my 2 cents on this Friday…
um yeah, and his plaque will read from the original German
Seems I made the right choice in not watching the “debates”.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 99
Sickening.
I wish I could be surprised anymore by the actions of the Claremont Institute- they’re well known in these parts as beyond ultra-neo. Scott Bloch went to OSC from there…
wasabi @ 101
Did somebody say drinking game?11!!
The question about amending the Constitution should have been, “Should we amend the Constitution to allow a dead man to run for a third term?” There’s something every Republican on that stage could agree on!
(As for the Iranian mullahs staring Reagan in the eyes, the truth is that they glanced away to look at the arms promised them if only they would release the prisoners on Inauguration Day.)
Scarecrow @ 67
From the link:
Cummins testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee on March 6, at which time a contemporaneous e-mail he wrote within an hour of his phone call with Elston was released. In the e-mail, which he sent to five of his fellow prosecutors, Cummins said that the “essence of [Elston’s] message” was that if any of the fired U.S. attorneys had pressed their case in the media or before Congress, senior aides to Attorney General Alberto Gonzales might “feel forced to somehow pull their gloves off” and accuse the prosecutors of ineptitude or poor management.
No wonder the fired USAs were so pissed. They kept their part of the bargain and got dissed anyway.
A-F*ckin-Men. Reality Rules!
Rising from the ashes, there is a new thread by Phoenix Woman. It’s the Bishop!
OldCoastie @ 47
These guys are so full of shit.
They remind me of a motorcycle review I once read. Apparently Kawasaki had slipped the writer some extra cash, because he raved about how fast and beautiful the Kawaski was: “It seemed to glisten in its own sunlight and to be leaping forward even when it was parked.” He also emphasized how stogy and dull the BMW was. But the numbers showed the the BMW outperformed the Kawasaki in every way.
Commentators in all fields tend to accentuate preconceptions and stereotypes.
LibertyLee @ 85
Maybe, but he would lose by a landslide to Sam Waterston.
infoshaman @ 122
spew alert!
LibertyLee @ 85
I know I don’t know enough about Mr. Thompson to judge, but I do know he’s on the Scooter Libby Defense Advisory Committee. That says a lot to me right there.
EPU’d, but what the heck . . .
Jay Leno nailed the GOP last night (paraphrasing the intro, but the clincher is a quote):
“Looking at the debaters gives a whole new meaning to GOP — Gray, Old, and Pale.
Scarecrow @ 117
‘Morning, Scarecrow! Yup, I’m all ready to go – though I was considering waiting until quarter after so as not to kill off discussion here. Though I hope that the two posts kinda flow into each other – the Republicans have been All About The (Abuse of) Religion lately, and both posts touch on that.
Thanks for the post Scarecrow. I don’t have the stomach to watch this stuff. I can excuse some stupidity but I cannot tolerate liars. These folks sound like Stepford candidates, and McCain? Another whack job, just what is needed.
LibertyLee @ 85
Anyone who wants to see the REAL Fred Thompson and the face of the Republican Party need only look at an old Roseanne rerun on Nick. Thompson plays the boss at Roseanne’s factory and he tries to co-opt her into getting the other workers to up their productivity without complaining.
The condescension is there, the sexist attitude, the old boy intimidation of boss over worker. It’s as true a picture of what their ideal America looks like as any I’ve ever seen. And anyone who believes the rule of law bullshit role he plays on Law and Order think of this: He was playing himself in the Roseanne episode; in the drama series he’s just playing a supervisor in the DA’s office.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 99
Ah The Claremont Institute. Putting the “tank” in “think tank” since 1979.
So where was Lieberman ?
Totally OT, but has anyone seen this?
http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/pap…..pholds.php
Romania, the country South Park named the “asshole of the world” is so far ahead of us in terms of popular government it isn’t funny.
I returned from there about a month ago and I wish the people here were as involved and as knowledgeable about their leaders as the Romanians are.
CNN talking about all the reasons that may lead to $4 gas…totally ignoring the turd in the punchbowl: how much manipulation–Enron-style–does Big Oil think it can get away with?
Big Oil…the Paris Hilton of the global economy.
Rawstory has a good piece about protesters to Pelosi’s Ca. visit. The place card at her table is priceless. WE are the deciders. The first comment by tony blair is just as good as the piece. “If you don’t impeach Bush/Cheney and throw blacks in jail..no wonder the world hates you.” mentions racism.
IrishJim @ 98
Being against the war has to help him. I still think Hagel may show up–this cast of clowns would make him look good.
Nice post Scarecrow. You crystallized my sense of disbelief (and outrage) at the charade called a “debate.”
Next Republican debate:
Show of hands candidates …
Do you believe in the Rule of Law?
Do you believe in rights for workers?
Do you believe in a woman’s right to choose?
Do you believe that torture is a good policy?
Do you believe that slavery should still be outlawed?
Tweety’s hateful obsession with the Clintons is a sign of a serious mental health problem and NBC should be ashamed for exploiting it
ps last week there were a milliom goopers talking about the debates..especially David Dreier includig an appearance on the Today Show
where were the Democratic party pundits…did nbc lose their numbers
on the Brian Williams haircut crap -he gets his hairdone at the studio and pays nothing his cheap shot at Edwards and his lie should disqualify him from his job
Toxic Tommy for president!
Great post. I’d love to hear some of the smart folks here expound on the “Angry Public” theme. What can an angry public achieve? A righteously angry public, not one whipped into a faux frenzy over land deals or BJs. When was the last time we were as mad as hell? Will we take to the streets? My son says it’s revolution time. He’s way smarter than I.
Scarecrow: I don’t have time to catch up on the comments but I was wondering what your thought were why Arnold escorted Nancy Reagan last night and who sent in the question on electing foreigners to the office of the presidency. If your answer is somewhere above, I’ll find it tonight.
Nice post picture, BTW. Looks like they’re making their first holy confession.
ccmask @ 147
The debate was held at the new Reagan library, which is in California. Having the Republican governor of California escort the former first lady would make sense. The question came from entries on line — I wasn’t paying attention to the names. However, Jim VandeHei did announce each person whose question he picked, so it should be on the tape.
Lee @ 19
I am pretty suRE Bain also owns CRC HealthcarE
matt @ 134
Perhaps it is more important to BE a character than to HAVE character?
RON PAUL POSTS EARLY LEADS
IN NETROOTS’ RESPONSE POLL IN CALIFORNIA DEBATES
With almost 50,000 votes in, Ron Paul is the hands-down favorite of the voters in this poll, no matter how you “spin” it. Here’s the amazing results from MSNBC’s own poll, but you probably won’t see anyone but Olberman report these numbers. If they do cover it, they will try to spin it as astroturfing internet shenaniganers and provocatuers, at it again.
In last night’s Republican presidential debate at the Reagan Library, former Massachusetts Mitt Romney added Osama Bin Laden to his rapidly growing list of flip-flops. By alternately downplaying or emphasizing the importance of capturing Bin Laden as political circumstances require, Romney finds himself in good company – with President Bush.
For the details, see:
“Romney Flip-Flops on Bin Laden.”
NorskeFlamethrower @ 115
Look, Bush can, and will, veto any actual Bill that is an expenditure bill that would do this.
What this bill does is give an “Intent of Congress” Statement as to the 2002 Authorization. It states that Bush has gone well beyond the intent of Congress in that 2002 Joint resolution that was restricted to authorizing the use of force to compel Saddam to abide to the UN Resolutiions on WMD’s and the 1991 Gulf War.
Bush can’t veto this. It doesn’t need a 2/3rds majority to override his veto.
But it DOES state that Bush is acting Unconstitutionally…is violating the original Resolution.
And here’s what is most interesting…it puts impeachment back on the table.
JEP @ 151
Of course many of those voting are likely Democrats, Independents or Libertarians. But it’s still interesting that Paul did so much better than McCain and the other religious goons, and the Mormon and Giuliani were just a little ahead.
This may be a big smack-on-the-head for the religious right!
mui @ 83
bah aha ha. Just voted and Ron Paul sweep the floor with them on every question.