Just what I feel capable of commenting on this morning!

Madness, Madness, MADNESS!

wow. truth abounds. guess we’ll have to wait for Scarecrow’s post to stew a while. cant wait to see what LHP has here!

I think it’s pretty clear that there are two reasons that impeachment is off the table.

1. With our troops in Iraq, the Republicans would accuse Democrats of leaving our troops in the field without leadership. (What leadership, you say. Well, that’s what the Repugs would say.)

2. The Senate has proven that the Republicans are not going to convict any Republican, not to mention the Grand Poo-Bah. They need 2/3 of the votes. Does anybody for one second think that the Republicans in this Senate, who have sat on Republican and Presidential investigations for the last six years and come up with nothing, are going to change because the evidence is clear? No way. Especially when you add in the fact that, if they try Bush and then say he’s innocent, the Republicans can come off free and clear of all this scandal, claim the Democrats were politicing, etc. etc.

I have to admit that impeachment at this stage looks pretty grim.

I have to admit that impeachment at this stage looks pretty grim.

That never stopped Ken Starr!

“Comey, one step between the U.S. and fascism.

NPR’s Terri Gross did an interview with Tenet!

I admonish my party. Do not compromise with George Bush on anything.

Mostly I overlook them, but one typo really needs to get fixed: “I want you to take note of the use of the permissive word “my” and the compulsive word “shall” as it appears throughout these statutes.”

That should be “may” — and yes, there’s a big, big difference between “may” and “shall.”

Great post . . . I can hardly wait for the hearing!

Do you see what I see??? Check this out:

The President shall be the commander in chief of the army and navy…

There is no mention of… the Air Force! And according to our conservative friends, that can only mean the president has no authority over the Air Force. (They’re the ones claiming that what is not spelled out in the Constitution is not granted.) This is a huge loophole, people! How can we make it work to our advantage?

typo alert
interpreations–which are subject to change

Oklahoma kiddo @
7

I admonish my party. Do not compromise with George Bush on anything.

I’m with you OKK, the Dems have to frame this as Bush V Democracy, Bush V America.
OH G*D, Jerry Lewis saying Congress cannot hold Bush accountable. Jerry, please read YOUR Constitution.
Is this the American Government or a circus?

one more
(though i quite like the spoonerism)

Comey “Fifth, and last, I expect that you will appreciate and protect an amazing gift you have received as an employee of the Department of Justice. It is a gift you may not notice until the first time you stand up and identify yourself as an employee of the Department of Justice and say something – whether in a courtroom, a conference room, or a cocktail party – and find that total strangers believe what you say next.

- That gift – the gift that makes possible so much of the good we accomplish – is a reservoir of trust and credibility, a reservoir built for us, and filled for us, by those who went before – most of whom we never knew. They were people who made sacrifices and kept promises to build that reservoir of trust.

- Our obligation – as the recipients of that great gift – is to protect that reservoir, to pass it to those who follow, those who may never know us, as full as we got it.

- The problem with reservoirs is that it takes tremendous time and effort to fill them, but one hole in a dam can drain them. The protection of that reservoir requires vigilance, an unerring commitment to truth, and a recognition that the actions of one may affect the priceless gift that benefits all.”

Thank You Comey

I am sending a copy of ‘General Eaton’s letter to the President’ to my Senator and asking him not to send another bill to the WH. When it was vetoed, it was like he ripped it up and threw it away. More money then he asked for too. The WH doesn’t deserve another bill, bring them home now. The troops want to come home and you threw away the check to keep them their. Suffer the consequences.

so they insert that ridiculous change into the Patriot Act and recently Congress purportedly changed it back, only not quite. Under the latest version, the AG still has role in appointing interim USAs. It’s a compromise.

I may be mistaken, but I think this is exactly what the process was prior to the Patriot Act. The AG may appoint an interim US attorney, but that interim appointment is only good for 120 days or until a permanent USA is confirmed, whichever comes first. If the 120 days comes first, then the district court can appoint someone as interim.

No compromise at all – simply the status quo ante.

lhp – penultimate paragraph – change “my” to “may.” big difference…

OT: Steny Hoyer on CSpan

June 2006 report describes process for confirming AG’s according to Sampson.

Report of Investigation into Allegations Relating to the Selection of the U.S. Attorney
for Guam and the Northern Mariana Islands

Special Report
June 2006
Office of the Inspector General

Selection Process for United States Attorneys

After President George W. Bush was inaugurated in January 2001, his administration sought to nominate new candidates to fill the U.S. Attorneys’ positions. Kyle Sampson, who was President Bush’s Associate Director for Presidential Personnel until late September 2001 and is now the Chief of Staff to the Attorney General, described the selection process to the OIG.

Sampson said the White House asked for recommendations from political leaders in the various districts for candidates to fill the U.S. Attorney positions. The recommendations generally were submitted by U.S. Senators of the President’s party to Sampson or to staff in the White House Office of Political Affairs (OPA). If no Republican Senator represented a particular judicial district, Sampson or OPA staff contacted whoever OPA designated as the “political lead” for that district. Sampson said the White House generally sought three names for each U.S. Attorney vacancy, although it did not always receive three.

Sampson said the White House forwarded potential U.S. Attorney candidates to the Executive Office for United States Attorney (EOUSA) in the DOJ, with a request that each person be sent an online application form and be scheduled for a panel interview. According to Associate Deputy Attorney General David Margolis, who participated in the U.S. Attorney selection process, Sampson’s request to EOUSA to send the application to an individual meant that the person had been “named as a candidate” by the White House. The candidates identified in this fashion would be interviewed by a panel that normally consisted of Sampson; Margolis; David Higbee, Deputy Associate Attorney General and the DOJ liaison to the White House; the Director of EOUSA; and Christopher Bartolomucci of the White House Counsel’s office. Sampson described the interview as similar to a regular job interview, with part of the interview focused on whether the candidate had any issues that might arise during the background investigation. After the interviews, the panelists would rank the candidates in order of preference. According to Sampson, if there was only a single candidate, the panel would determine whether the person “me[t] the bar,” meaning that the candidate met the minimum level of qualifications for the position of U.S. Attorney.

According to Sampson, the panel usually developed a consensus regarding the strongest candidate. After the panel agreed on a candidate, the panel would seek concurrence from the Deputy Attorney General and the Attorney General. If they concurred with the panel’s recommendation, Sampson would seek approval for the nomination from the White House Counsel. Sampson stated that he could not recall any occasion when the Deputy Attorney General, Attorney General, and White House Counsel did not concur with the panel’s recommendation for a U.S. Attorney.

Sampson said that after the White House Counsel approved a nomination for U.S. Attorney, Sampson would send an e-mail to EOUSA asking it to prepare the paperwork regarding the candidate for inclusion in a binder submitted to the President containing names of candidates being recommended for appointments as federal judges, U.S. Attorneys, and U.S. Marshals. Sampson said he would then discuss the U.S. Attorney candidate recommendations with the President. If the President agreed with the recommendation, Sampson would inform EOUSA that the President had expressed his “intent to nominate” the candidate pending the successful completion of the background investigation process. However, the “intent to nominate” would not be publicly announced until after the background investigation process was completed and the candidate’s background investigation was “cleared” by the White House Counsel, as described below.

The Background Investigation and Confirmation

After receiving notification that the President intended to nominate a candidate, EOUSA would ask the candidate to complete the background investigation forms. The background investigation and confirmation portions of the process were overseen by EOUSA and the DOJ Office of Legal Policy (OLP).

Upon receiving the completed background forms from the candidate, DOJ would request that the FBI initiate the background investigation. Background investigations for U.S. Attorneys included interviews of at least six federal, state, and local judges; three attorneys who are associates of the candidate; three opposing attorneys; six representatives from federal, state, and local government prosecutors’ offices; and senators of the state where the candidate would serve. According to Higbee, the FBI generally sought to complete the background investigations within two months. Upon its completion, EOUSA would review the FBI background investigation and prepare a memorandum for Higbee summarizing the results and attaching interview summaries and other material from the background investigation file. Higbee said he would review the memorandum and, if issues arose in the background investigation, discuss them with Margolis. Higbee would then forward the memorandum to Sampson at the White House.

According to Sampson, many background investigation memoranda stated that there were no issues with the candidate. Sampson told the OIG that in such cases the White House Counsel’s office would state that the candidate was “cleared.” If the candidate had issues, Sampson said he would review the memorandum (and sometimes the file as well) before forwarding the memorandum to the Deputy White House Counsel, who would make the determination whether to clear the candidate. If the Deputy White House Counsel cleared the candidate, the White House informed EOUSA, and EOUSA sent nomination paperwork to the White House. The White House would then publicly announce the nomination or the President’s “intent to nominate” the candidate and the White House would forward nomination paperwork to the Senate.2

While the amount of time varied with each candidate, the time from selection and the beginning of the background investigation to the President’s public announcement of his intent to nominate could be substantial.

link

Check out TPM Muckraker for the latest Prosecutor Purge revelation:

In a phone conversation last December, Deputy Attorney General Paul McNulty told then-U.S. Attorney for Nevada Daniel Bogden that Bogden’s performance “did not enter into the equation” as a reason for his firing.

That’s at odds with what McNulty told the Senate Judiciary Committee under oath in February — that Bogden and others had been fired for “performance related” reasons.

I wonder if Mr. McNulty will now understand that he previously told Bogden that performance had nothing to do with his firing?

Amazing that none of these high-level DoJ lawyers can remember the cardinal rule of testimony: tell the truth, it’s easier to remember.

lolo @ 17

OT: Steny Hoyer on CSpan

Wonder if he’ll own up to his position on the war being in line with the republics?

Thank you for laying this out LooseHeadProp.
I for one, can always use the education. It does help a great deal to understand what is happening and helps give the ability to call BULLSHIT when end runs are attempted at our laws.

And > Ans Congress did so

if > In 1868 Congress created a method of filling vacancies that might occur is a USA (or US Marshal)[add space] left office.

it > because is might be an unconstitutional violation of separation of powers?

add an “a” > the AG still has [a] role in appointing interim USAs

may > the permissive word “my“

OT – this is big:

JERUSALEM – Israel’s popular foreign minister on Wednesday called on Prime Minister Ehud Olmert to step down and said she would seek to replace him as allies began to desert the embattled premier after a harsh report criticizing his handling of last year’s war in Lebanon.

OT – On Raw Story: According to former British Defense Secretary Geoff Hoon, Vice President Dick Cheney has been calling the shots in Iraq and has even overridden decisions by President Bush and former US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

Even Republics can’t honestly want this extraconstitutional regime to continue.

OT–

Zach Wamp up. Some name…

LHP, I’ve got an OT question for you, if you don’t mind.

Yesterday in the Sen. Intel hearings re:FISA, one of the panelists was Kenneth Wainstein, Assistant AG for the DOJ’s National Security Division.

He said, in response to Sen. Whitehouse’s comment:

The Attorney General has thoroughly and utterly lost my confidence. And at this stage, any element of the FISA legislation that depends on the Attorney General will need some other backstop in order to have my confidence.

by saying:

I’m the head of a brand new division that’s focused on national security matters and a large part of our operation is making sure that we play within the lines.

Have you heard anything about his division before? In what bill was it created? It it possible that some of its functions are usurping powers once granted to the judiciary?

I suppose I could start digging around, but I thought I’d start by asking you.

litigatormom @ 19

Check out TPM Muckraker for the latest Prosecutor Purge revelation:

In a phone conversation last December, Deputy Attorney General Paul McNulty told then-U.S. Attorney for Nevada Daniel Bogden that Bogden’s performance “did not enter into the equation” as a reason for his firing.

That’s at odds with what McNulty told the Senate Judiciary Committee under oath in February — that Bogden and others had been fired for “performance related” reasons.

I wonder if Mr. McNulty will now understand that he previously told Bogden that performance had nothing to do with his firing?

Amazing that none of these high-level DoJ lawyers can remember the cardinal rule of testimony: tell the truth, it’s easier to remember.

They CAN’T tell the truth. We can’t handle the truth (kidding!) To tell the truth would pull the cover back from the black pit of their RICO conspiracy. Not allowed.

lhp – Since I’m interested in your thoughts about this, I wanted to repost a comment I posted this morning in Scarecrow’s post:

Scarecrow -

Perhaps it would be a good idea to delve further into this concept:
Subversion (politics)

Let’s look at Wikipedia for a minute:

Subversion refers to an attempt to overthrow structures of authority, including the state. It is an overturning or uprooting. The word is present in all languages of Latin origin, originally applying to such diverse events as the military defeat of a city.

As early as the 14th century, it was being used in the English language with reference to laws, and in the 15th century came to be used with respect to the realm. The term has taken over from ‘sedition’ as the name for illicit rebellion, though the connotations of the two words are rather different, sedition suggesting overt attacks on institutions, subversion something much more surreptitious, such as eroding the basis of belief in the status quo or setting people against each other.

(snip)

Do efforts to politicize the Department of Justice constitute subversion? If so, what federal statutes, if any, have been violated? What other manifestations of subversion do you see?

Ed*ard Teller @ 23

OT – this is big:

JERUSALEM – Israel’s popular foreign minister on Wednesday called on Prime Minister Ehud Olmert to step down and said she would seek to replace him as allies began to desert the embattled premier after a harsh report criticizing his handling of last year’s war in Lebanon.

Livni and Olmert hate each other. She was seen as insufficiently behind the Lebanon invasion last year and Olmert forbade her from going to New York to be present when the UN resolution ending the Israeli invasion was voted on. That said, she is still very hard line.

When I worked on DoD contracts, one point that we NEVER allowed contractors to do in any planning documents was to use “will,” “may,” “could,” or “should.” Everything had to be “shall” statements. Anything less, and we’d given ‘em a loophole large enough to drive a semi through.

OT
Just a reminder that we do have people working for the good of this country.
This is an excerpt of an email I just received,I liked the last line.

If President Bush thinks by vetoing this bill he will stop us from working to change the direction of this war, he is mistaken.

Thank you for your continued support,

Harry Reid

Thank God for Comey.

Has anyone seen any report in the MSM that has slanted the veto story in the proper perspective, e.g.: Bush vetoed funding for the troops?

I have not. All I’ve seen says that Bush vetoed a bill for withdrawal of the troops, ergo the Democrats have not provided the funding.

Love Chimpy’s veto /definitely sarcasm.

Badwater @ 24

OT – On Raw Story: According to former British Defense Secretary Geoff Hoon, Vice President Dick Cheney has been calling the shots in Iraq and has even overridden decisions by President Bush and former US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

Even Republics can’t honestly want this extraconstitutional regime to continue.

Link to the entire Guardian article:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq…..56,00.html

Bustednuckles @
31

OT
Just a reminder that we do have people working for the good of this country.
This is an excerpt of an email I just received,I liked the last line.

If President Bush thinks by vetoing this bill he will stop us from working to change the direction of this war, he is mistaken.

Thank you for your continued support,

Harry Reid

I’m guesssing that everyone who signed the petition agains the veto got one of these e-mails.

GeorgeSimian @
4

The Senate has proven that the Republicans are not going to convict any Republican, not to mention the Grand Poo-Bah. They need 2/3 of the votes. Does anybody for one second think that the Republicans in this Senate, who have sat on Republican and Presidential investigations for the last six years and come up with nothing, are going to change because the evidence is clear?

An unlikely result is no reason for not trying. Hell, Bush&Rove got where they are by continually pushing the limits; there’s no reason we shouldn’t as well. At the very least, any discussion of impeachment should bring out more revelations as well as making current (if lesser known to the general public) knowledge more prevalent. We’re probably not going to change the minds of any true believers, but we can maybe swing some of the lesser believers and more of the independents, thus crippling the Rs even more.

Re McNulty, he was deliberately kept out of the loop. He could tell something was going on or something wasn’t quite right but didn’t have the info to know what it was. It’s why the Judiciary Committee went so easy on him after they found out he hadn’t told them the truth. It’s because people at the DOJ hadn’t told him the truth.

Sort of OT, but:

Condi has lost 3 aides in the last week or so. Look at the positions held by Dina Habib Powell in consideration of Waxman’s request for documents lately from all the departments:

http://www.sourcewatch.org/ind…..ina_Powell

Bustednuckles @
31

OT
Just a reminder that we do have people working for the good of this country.
This is an excerpt of an email I just received,I liked the last line.

If President Bush thinks by vetoing this bill he will stop us from working to change the direction of this war, he is mistaken.

Thank you for your continued support,

Harry Reid

They need to hear that they have your support, tell your friends and relatives to call/e-mail/fax their Representatives, Senators as well as Majority & Minority Leaders of both Houses. Oh and flood the White House with calls, e-mails and faxes as well.

OT–

Dan Burton doesn’t know what the f*ck he’s talking about.

The Israeli government is always decrying how the Arabs want to push them into the sea. Maybe so. And how does this differ from the Israeli view on the Palestinians?

Biodun @ 40

OT–

Dan Burton doesn’t know what the f*ck he’s talking about.

That’s not a news flash, Biodun. Pretty sure that has been established previously. J/K

Biodun @ 40

OT–

Dan Burton doesn’t know what the f*ck he’s talking about.

again.

Jerry Lewis keeps yielding his time. Think he’s too crooked to think or talk straight?

Badwater@24

Vice President Dick Cheney has been calling the shots in Iraq and has even overridden decisions by President Bush and former US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

Shocking!

Next, we’ll find out water is wet.

EPU’d:

Burton up:

On behalf of all sane Hoosiers, we *really* apologize.

Olmert, Sharon, Bush. Now there’s an axis.

EPU’d from last thread….

I think we should ‘move on’ from the current Funding Bill, Georgie Boy vetoed it… Let him… it will come back and haunt him very soon…
Put this ‘3 step plan’ in a stand alone Bill and sign it from ‘We The People’,
It is short and to the point.
Yep, present this one next ……

http://justworldnews.org/archives/002321.html
Posted by Helena Cobban at January 8, 2007 02:16 PM

(1) The President makes an authoritative public statement in which he announces,

(a) His firm intention to pull all US troops out of Iraq by a date certain, perhaps 4-6 months ahead;
(b) An assurance that the US has no lasting claims on the land or resources of Iraq;
(c) An expression of the US’s goodwill towards the people of Iraq, and its sympathy for all the harms that they have suffered in recent years; and
(d) An invitation to the UN Secretary-General to oversee the process of negotiating all the modalities of the US troop withdrawal, including the formation of an Iraqi negotiating team of his (not the US’s) choice, and the convening of a parallel negotiation that involves Iraq, the US, and all Iraq’s neighbors.

(2) The clock starts ticking on the timetable announced by the President. That fact and the other new diplomatic realities created by his announcement all act together to start transforming the political dynamics within Iraq, the region, and indeed the US, as well. The Iraqi parties and movements all have a powerful incentive to work with each other and the UN for the speedy success of the negotiation over the post-occupation political order. They and the UN also start planning for the many tasks of social, economic, and political reconstruction that the country needs. Another important function for the UN will be to resurrect and re-stress the principle of Iraq’s territorial integrity and national soveriegnty against all the pressures that its powerful neighbors may exert in this fragile period. In these months the US troops in Iraq might come under some form of UN command (as happened– imperfectly, but with ultimate success– during an analogous process of a negotiated troop withdrawal in Namibia, in 1989.) But anyway, the US troops’ main mission in this period will be to organize and start implementing their own orderly departure from the country.
(3) On the date certain the last US troops leave Iraq and there is a handing-over ceremony.’

I had been wondering why the Patriot Act provisions regarding appointment of the USAs was not violative of the provision that “officers” be appointed with the advice and consent of the Senate.

But it seems the clause “But Congress may by law vest the appointment … in the heads of departments” shows that the provision, while a politically B.S. maneuver, would have been constitutionally o.k. And it hangs Gonzales on his bogus reasoning.

(I’m sorry, but please clean up the typos…)
Cheers!

Oklahoma kiddo @ 41

The Israeli government is always decrying how the Arabs want to push them into the sea. Maybe so. And how does this differ from the Israeli view on the Palestinians?

Dear Oklahoma Kiddo,

Are you kidding?

No one does “crazy” like Jerry Lewis.

Helen @ 44

Jerry Lewis keeps yielding his time. Think he’s too crooked to think or talk straight?

Is he managing the debate? If so, he would be given a certain length of time, say 30 minutes, and he would divide it up among those on his side.

Mae @ 50

Oklahoma kiddo @ 41

The Israeli government is always decrying how the Arabs want to push them into the sea. Maybe so. And how does this differ from the Israeli view on the Palestinians?

Dear Oklahoma Kiddo,

Are you kidding?

I am not.

kdh22 @ Hugh:

Great minds think alike–same time stamp too.

Petrocelli @ 51

No one does “crazy” like Jerry Lewis.

“Hey, lady!”

A lyric from Janis’ “Me and Bobby McGee” keeps running through my head…

“Freedom’s just another word for nothin’ left to lose…”

Don’t know why. Just needed to tell someone.

Ed*ard Teller @ 23

OT – this is big:

JERUSALEM – Israel’s popular foreign minister on Wednesday called on Prime Minister Ehud Olmert to step down and said she would seek to replace him as allies began to desert the embattled premier after a harsh report criticizing his handling of last year’s war in Lebanon.

Does this mean they’re ready to get rid of their neocons, or am I being naive and overhopeful?

O.K. Someone please help me out here. There is no comparison between Israel, which recognizes the right of a Palestinian state to exit (since 1948) and Hamas, which continues to say that Israel does not have the right to exist.

what is this – Crazy Criminal Californian Day in the House?

Petrocelli @ 51

No one does “crazy” like Jerry Lewis.

Ah c’mon! Patsy did it MUCH better!

Oh, wait a minute. You weren’t talkin’ about the song were you? As Emily said: “Never mind.”

OT–

Duncan Hunter up: Is he still running for president?

This is good news for the 2008 elections.

From The Hill

NRSC lacks candidates and money
By Aaron Blake
May 02, 2007

…

In the first quarter, the NRSC, currently led by Sen. John Ensign (R-Nev.), raised about half the money of the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee (DSCC), which eclipsed the NRSC’s quarterly total in March alone.

The troubles extend to recruiting.

The NRSC chided the DSCC two weeks ago when it failed to recruit Oregon Rep. Peter DeFazio (D) to run against Sen. Gordon Smith (R) in 2008. But when it comes to recruiting success stories, the NRSC doesn’t have a single leg to stand on.

The NRSC has yet to land one substantial candidate, while the DSCC has several candidates in Minnesota and New Hampshire, along with leading candidates and presumptive nominees in Colorado, Idaho and Maine.

The only major Republican challenger right now is a potential primary challenger — Nebraska Attorney General Jon Bruning. Bruning has begun a feud with Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-Neb.), who has yet to go public with any 2008 plans. Bruning has gone back on a pledge to bow out if the senator runs for reelection.

…

The Hill

GeorgeSimian @
4

I think it’s pretty clear that there are two reasons that impeachment is off the table.

1. With our troops in Iraq, the Republicans would accuse Democrats of leaving our troops in the field without leadership. (What leadership, you say. Well, that’s what the Repugs would say.)

2. The Senate has proven that the Republicans are not going to convict any Republican, not to mention the Grand Poo-Bah. They need 2/3 of the votes. Does anybody for one second think that the Republicans in this Senate, who have sat on Republican and Presidential investigations for the last six years and come up with nothing, are going to change because the evidence is clear? No way. Especially when you add in the fact that, if they try Bush and then say he’s innocent, the Republicans can come off free and clear of all this scandal, claim the Democrats were politicing, etc. etc.

I have to admit that impeachment at this stage looks pretty grim.

What’s missing from your assessment is that a good many of these Republican Senators are facing re-election next year, and many of them are wondering if charging full speed ahead with the Prez towards the cliff is such a good idea.

Bob in HI

Roddy McCorley @
9

Do you see what I see??? Check this out:

The President shall be the commander in chief of the army and navy…

There is no mention of… the Air Force! And according to our conservative friends, that can only mean the president has no authority over the Air Force. (They’re the ones claiming that what is not spelled out in the Constitution is not granted.) This is a huge loophole, people! How can we make it work to our advantage?

Maybe it will help the head of the AF say “NO” to Bush when he asks them to bomb Iran?

Bob in HI

Josh has a nice of summary of why Bush can’t fire Abu G.

the replacement would have to be a real attorney general.

mui @ 57

Does this mean they’re ready to get rid of their neocons, or am I being naive and overhopeful?

The only reason that Olmert has lasted this long is because there is no one on the political scene to replace him, except the even crazier, scarier, and more worthless Netanyahu. And yes, there are still plenty of the Israeli version still around.

mui @
57

Ed*ard Teller @ 23

OT – this is big:

JERUSALEM – Israel’s popular foreign minister on Wednesday called on Prime Minister Ehud Olmert to step down and said she would seek to replace him as allies began to desert the embattled premier after a harsh report criticizing his handling of last year’s war in Lebanon.

Does this mean they’re ready to get rid of their neocons, or am I being naive and overhopeful?

no and yes:

Countdown has begun
US, Israel prepare for Iran strike in wake of new intelligence information
Orly Azoulay
Published: 04.29.07, 16:18 / Israel Opinion
Washington: The intelligence information gathered by the Unites States regarding Iran’s technological breakthrough that could lead Teheran to an atom bomb in less than three years bodes well with President George Bush’s political desperation.

The new intelligence indicates that Iran is making accelerated progress in acquiring the required amount of enriched uranium for assembling its first nuclear bomb.

Until recently, American intelligence estimated that this would only happen in 2015. Now US intelligence is falling into line with its colleagues in Israel and is estimating that an Iranian bomb can be expected as early as 2010.

Looks like somebody’s busy creating the next generation of yellowcake forgeries…

Renzi faced cash squeeze

By Alexander Bolton
May 02, 2007

Rep. Rick Renzi (R-Ariz.) took out a $500,000 second mortgage on his Flagstaff home in January after paying more than $300,000 in tax arrears discovered by a Federal Election Commission (FEC) investigation.

The mortgage loan, revealed by Renzi in a document filed with Coconino County, Ariz., is worth the highest possible listed value of his house, and suggests the embattled lawmaker may have faced a substantial cash squeeze at the end of the last Congress.

It may also cast light on $200,000 that came to Renzi two years ago from a business partner. The money exchange has raised eyebrows and suggestions of impropriety.

Around the time Renzi accepted the payment, the FEC launched an investigation of his campaign finances, forcing the lawmaker and his wife to pay an extra $324,000 in federal and state taxes.

The FEC launched its investigation in May 2005 and informed two businesses linked to Renzi of the probe later that month. That same month, James Sandlin, a former business partner, gave Renzi $200,000, a payment now being investigated by the FBI, according to The Wall Street Journal.

Renzi’s lawyer has said Sandlin gave Renzi the money to settle a business debt. But ethics experts interviewed by The Hill last week said the lawmaker should have disclosed it on forms filed with the Clerk of the House. The fact that Renzi did not report the payment could be cited as evidence that he intended to conceal it, said one expert.

The half-million dollar loan on the Renzi residence at 2063 Raintree Road came on top of a $100,000-$250,000 mortgage he took out on the same property in 2005.

In his most recent finacial disclosure report, Renzi reported assets worth between $250,000 and $550,000. His spouse reported owning an insurance company, Patriot Insurance, worth between $1 million and $5 million. Most of Renzi’s wealth is tied up in real estate: He reported owning assets in three funds worth between $3,000 and $45,000.

…

Link

EPU’d from last thread, sorry slightly off topic..
I know there are multiple scandals and secrets coming to light, but somebody needs to take a close look at what is going on with this whole funding, arms deals etc in support of Abbas against the DEMOCRATICALLY elected government of the Palestinian People.
The people running this little show have dirty hands and an hidden agenda (Iran Contra etc) so if somebody with more knowledge about this stuff could perhaps look into this?

http://conflictsforum.org/2007…..war/print/
Elliot Abrams’ uncivil war

January 7, 2007 @ 4:45 pm

Is the Bush administration violating the law in an effort to provoke a Palestinian civil war?

Deputy National Security Advisor, Elliott Abrams — who Newsweek recently described as “the last neocon standing” — has had it about for some months now that the U.S. is not only not interested in dealing with Hamas, it is working to ensure its failure. In the immediate aftermath of the Hamas elections, last January, Abrams greeted a group of Palestinian businessmen in his White House office with talk of a “hard coup” against the newly-elected Hamas government — the violent overthrow of their leadership with arms supplied by the United States. While the businessmen were shocked, Abrams was adamant — the U.S. had to support Fatah with guns, ammunition and training, so that they could fight Hamas for control of the Palestinian government.

While those closest to him now concede the Abrams’ words were issued in a moment of frustration, the “hard coup” talk was hardly just talk. Over the last twelve months, the United States has supplied guns, ammunition and training to Palestinian Fatah activists to take on Hamas in the streets of Gaza and the West Bank. A large number of Fatah activists have been trained and “graduated” from two camps — one in Ramallah and one in Jericho. The supplies of rifles and ammunition, which started as a mere trickle, has now become a torrent (Haaretz reports the U.S. has designated an astounding $86.4 million for Abu Mazen’s security detail), and while the program has gone largely without notice in the American press, it is openly talked about and commented on in the Arab media — and in Israel. Thousands of rifles and bullets have been poring into Gaza and the West Bank from Egypt and Jordan, the administration’s designated allies in the program.

In the interest of the last threads urgency

John Edward wants to put up an ad that brought tears to my eyes. Watch it and decide. I cant send much but will send some.

http://johnedwards.com/wethepeople/

BTW I reworked my item on the attorney firings in my scandals list. It’s item 2.

http://www.netrootsmass.net/Hugh/Bush_list.html

Bush today on Iraq: “But slowly but surely, the truth will be known. Either we’ll succeed, or we won’t succeed.”

Republics, again, why do you support anything about this guy?

Perhaps a refresher course in who’s land was appropriated in 1948 would help. And if Rachel Corrie were alive, perhaps she would have a different view. What Palestinian homeland? Gaza and the West Bank are not much more than gulags. And incidentally, not gulags invented by the Palestinians. The Palestinians have no say so on anything. Be it taxes, travel or whatever. If it was right to establish a Jewish homeland in 1948, why then is it not right to do the same for the Palestinians today? The suggestion would be to read former President Carter’s latest book on this subject.

Oklahoma kiddo says:
May 2nd, 2007 at 10:45 am

Mae @ 50

Oklahoma kiddo @ 41

The Israeli government is always decrying how the Arabs want to push them into the sea. Maybe so. And how does this differ from the Israeli view on the Palestinians?

Dear Oklahoma Kiddo,

Are you kidding?

I am not.
Mae says:
May 2nd, 2007 at 10:47 am

O.K. Someone please help me out here. There is no comparison between Israel, which recognizes the right of a Palestinian state to exit (since 1948) and Hamas, which continues to say that Israel does not have the right to exist.

Does anyone want to comment?

Hugh:

That’s some “humongous” list–as my son would put it.

Mae @
58

O.K. Someone please help me out here. There is no comparison between Israel, which recognizes the right of a Palestinian state to exit (since 1948) and Hamas, which continues to say that Israel does not have the right to exist.

I would encourage you to read Jimmy Carter’s recent book as well as many sites that depict the refugee camps many Palestinians live in.
Words must be followed by actions, not opposed by actions.

Mae @ 50

Oklahoma kiddo @ 41

The Israeli government is always decrying how the Arabs want to push them into the sea. Maybe so. And how does this differ from the Israeli view on the Palestinians?

Dear Oklahoma Kiddo,

Are you kidding?

Well, maybe the Israelis aren’t using that exact language, but it seems plain that they’re using exactly the same strategy as the U.S. used against American Indians (squish’em into itty bitty reservations and hope they go away) except that Israel is NOT pushing for assimilation.

Read President Carter’s book.

Bob in HI

Mae @ 58

O.K. Someone please help me out here. There is no comparison between Israel, which recognizes the right of a Palestinian state to exit (since 1948) and Hamas, which continues to say that Israel does not have the right to exist.

sadly, they call it jordan. actions on the ground in the west bank by the israeli gov. (and i understand it’s worse in gaza, but i haven’t been there) do not show respect for the rights of palestinians… not just national rights, but human rights.

happily the israeli government does not represent the views of all israelis… there are israelis like jeff halper who i choose to support.

Petrocelli @ 76

Mae @
58

O.K. Someone please help me out here. There is no comparison between Israel, which recognizes the right of a Palestinian state to exit (since 1948) and Hamas, which continues to say that Israel does not have the right to exist.

I would encourage you to read Jimmy Carter’s recent book as well as many sites that depict the refugee camps many Palestinians live in.
Words must be followed by actions, not opposed by actions.

Does Israel have the right to exist?

The President shall be the commander in chief of the army and navy…

The real question is ‘who does Blackwater take orders from?’

Mae @ 58

O.K. Someone please help me out here. There is no comparison between Israel, which recognizes the right of a Palestinian state to exit (since 1948) and Hamas, which continues to say that Israel does not have the right to exist.

OK, help me out here, Mae. which Israel is Hamas supposed to recognize – this one? or this one? Or perhaps you could draw me a map that Hamas should accept.

Recognition of a nation that takes more of one’s land, water and other resources every month may be more difficult for some to accept than for others. Hamas doesn’t negate the existence of Israel. They seek to redress grievances unresolved since 1947. Sixty years of grievances.

And which Middle Eastern nation is a primary protagonist for attacking Iran, outside this country? And if an attack is launched against Iraq, this will result in a world war.

The results of an attack on Iran could be horrendous. After all, according to a recent study of “the Iraq effect” by terrorism specialists Peter Bergen and Paul Cruickshank, using government and Rand Corporation data, the Iraq invasion has already led to a seven-fold increase in terror. The “Iran effect” would probably be far more severe and long-lasting. British military historian Corelli Barnett speaks for many when he warns that “an attack on Iran would effectively launch World War III.”

OT–

John Boehner is also full of sh*t.

Biodun @ 82

OT–

John Boehner is also full of sh*t.

Terror porn

hackworth @ 32

Well, sort of: the LA Times story:
Bush vetoes Democrats’ Iraq war bill
The president fulfills his threat on a day of political theater for both parties. Lawmakers chart their next moves.
By Noam N. Levey and Maura Reynolds, Times Staff Writers
May 2, 2007

WASHINGTON — President Bush vetoed a Democratic war spending bill Tuesday that would have compelled him to withdraw U.S. troops from Iraq, a move that came exactly four years after he triumphantly landed on an aircraft carrier to announce the end of “major combat operations.”

At least they got the spending bit in first.

Biodun @ 82

OT–

John Boehner is also full of sh*t.

Understatement of the century.

My understanding is that the offending provision in the Patriot Act revision, which deleted the need to seek Senate confirmation for “interim” USA’s, has not yet been revoked. Bills to do so passed the House and Senate in late March. I don’t believe a joint bill has come out of conference or been signed by the President.

What about the five dancing Mossad agents who were documenting the World Trade Center attack?

Wow! Hey firedogs, its been so nice sharing with you. I am devastated. I didn’t realize how you all felt. Now I know. And I’m really depressed. Thanks for the memories. Sorry I can’t join you any more.

Up till now, I didn’t realize the anti-Israel sentiment. But now I just feel stupid.

Mae @ 79

Does Israel have the right to exist?

my personal opinion (at this moment) is that i don’t care that much about the rights of states – do they even exist?

i do care very much about the rights of ALL israelis (and ALL palestinians)…

does that make any sense? what is your view on this?

thanks for being willing to discuss this issue…

Jack Murtha on CSpan

What’s missing from your assessment is that a good many of these Republican Senators are facing re-election next year, and many of them are wondering if charging full speed ahead with the Prez towards the cliff is such a good idea.

Bob in HI

There are 21 Republican senators up in 08. IMO, they are all vulnerable.

Mae @ 74

Oklahoma kiddo says:
May 2nd, 2007 at 10:45 am

Mae @ 50

Oklahoma kiddo @ 41

The Israeli government is always decrying how the Arabs want to push them into the sea. Maybe so. And how does this differ from the Israeli view on the Palestinians?

Dear Oklahoma Kiddo,

Are you kidding?

I am not.
Mae says:
May 2nd, 2007 at 10:47 am

O.K. Someone please help me out here. There is no comparison between Israel, which recognizes the right of a Palestinian state to exit (since 1948) and Hamas, which continues to say that Israel does not have the right to exist.

Does anyone want to comment?

I’m told that if Jews no longer had a “special” status within the plot of land now called Israel, then “Isreal would no longer exist.” That is to say, these people tell me that this special status in instrinsic to the definition and existence of Israel.

The Palestinians I’ve spoken with do not see a special status for this or that religion to be intrinsic to a Palestinian state, though many would prefer that situation.

LS @ 38

Sort of OT, but:

Condi has lost 3 aides in the last week or so. Look at the positions held by Dina Habib Powell in consideration of Waxman’s request for documents lately from all the departments:

http://www.sourcewatch.org/ind…..ina_Powell

I never knew Condi was Egyptian born…

The Air Force is fully owned by the Fundies. They follow Bush first and then God. Just like Karl planned when he took the Fundies under his wing.

jackie @ 69

That we are promoting a civil war between Fatah and Hamas has been known for almost a year. It exposes much of the incoherence of Bush’s Middle East policies. There was a democratic election, but as has been long pointed out such elections do not produce the moderates that Bush says they will. So he and Condi immediately set out to subvert the result by arming Hamas’ opponents. It is a difficult situation for both Hamas and Fatah because they know they are being played by us and that we do not have their best interests at heart.

STTP in Ohio -

You had a question a couple threads back about naming one thing as a Nation we can be proud of?

I know you meant ‘this admin’ but, the results of NOv. 7, 2006 are something to point to. Not least of which is the defeat of your own Mr. DeWine, which was important to getting ‘control’ of Senate.

Mae @ 89

Wow! Hey firedogs, its been so nice sharing with you. I am devastated. I didn’t realize how you all felt. Now I know. And I’m really depressed. Thanks for the memories. Sorry I can’t join you any more.

Up till now, I didn’t realize the anti-Israel sentiment. But now I just feel stupid.

please, please don’t go away… i beg you.

i know this is such a difficult subject… but it is also very important.

if you can’t do it just now, maybe you could come back later? and bring a friend if you need some moral support?

please reconsider…

condemning the actions of the government of israel is NOT being against the israelis (just like being against bush’s policies is not anti-american)

House Hearing on Relations with China Rep. Tom Lantos (D-CA) chairs Foreign Affairs Cmte. hearing on China. Deputy Secretary of State John Negroponte testifies before the committee.

I am listening to Tom Lantos with mixed feelings. He is sensible on the T*/Mainland Issue to a certain extent. But, he is really pushing it when condemning China for its foreign relations partner, re: Iran. He is also sh*t with language that is likely to make China balk on T**wan and T*b*t , which is not helpful at all to the “repressed ones”. He condemns China for the satellite explosion and weapons buildup, when ChimpCo initiated nuclear noncooperation.
Ileana Ros-Lehtinen. What an asshole.

Mae @ 88

Wow! Hey firedogs, its been so nice sharing with you. I am devastated. I didn’t realize how you all felt. Now I know. And I’m really depressed. Thanks for the memories. Sorry I can’t join you any more.

Up till now, I didn’t realize the anti-Israel sentiment. But now I just feel stupid.

Mae – please don’t leave. You are not stupid. We neeed all voices here, and we all agree to disagree. If we don’t have all sides voiced, we are no better than Bush in his bubble. I honestly don’t know enough about the conflict to comment, but I, for one, appreciate your views. Please stay

LHP..Thanks! Would the “may” include the Attorney General passing the job of who gets the axe to an underling?

Mae @
89

Wow! Hey firedogs, its been so nice sharing with you. I am devastated. I didn’t realize how you all felt. Now I know. And I’m really depressed. Thanks for the memories. Sorry I can’t join you any more.

Up till now, I didn’t realize the anti-Israel sentiment. But now I just feel stupid.

Mae,

You’re misreading concern over human rights issues as being animus toward a nation. I’ve been a supporter of my friends in Israel since the early 1960s, when I began making Israeli friends. But I also have been making Palestinian friends during that time. Have you?

I hope Mae didn’t leave before getting a chance to read the comments to her.

We respect her. We need her.

Ed*ard Teller @ 102

Mae @
89

Wow! Hey firedogs, its been so nice sharing with you. I am devastated. I didn’t realize how you all felt. Now I know. And I’m really depressed. Thanks for the memories. Sorry I can’t join you any more.

Up till now, I didn’t realize the anti-Israel sentiment. But now I just feel stupid.

Mae,

You’re misreading concern over human rights issues as being animus toward a nation. I’ve been a supporter of my friends in Israel since the early 1960s, when I began making Israeli friends. But I also have been making Palestinian friends during that time. Have you?

I have many family and friends in Israel. I have many Palestinian friends as well. Hamas is a group dedicated to the destruction of Israel. People who write into this site are against Bushie policies. People on this site are not in favor of Al Queda. Therefore I don’t understand how people on this site can be in favor of Hamas.

All positions about the Israelis and Palestinians are welcome and should be thoroughly debated. The issue is so highly complicated and fraught, and weighted with so much history. Throw religion into the mix and…(don’t know what to say here).

So Mae: Please stay.

Mae,

I think we do not believe in justice for some and not for others. Israel has the second best military in the Middle East besides ours. It has 200-300 nuclear weapons. It can be irritated but it can’t be threatened.

It has engaged in a brutal 40 year occupation. You can’t just ignore these things because they are inconvenient or uncomfortable.

Our policies with regard to Israel have often abetted the worse in Israel thinking to the detriment of both countries.

What is currently happening has been happening for 60 years. You might ask why persisting in the same attitudes and ideas that produced the situation today are at all likely to result in a durable peace. It is precisely because our and Israeli policies have not worked that we should look to other ideas.

If you can see the folly of staying the course in Iraq, why can you not see the same folly of doing so in Israel and the West Bank?

Hugh@96
Oh, yes I know :(

I don’t know if you had a chance to click on the link, but my question? was more about the players etc re; very quiet(shady?) stuff in the background and just whom? is really pushing this through….

FYI, Jane is upstairs with no more war forever!

Mae @
89

Wow! Hey firedogs, its been so nice sharing with you. I am devastated. I didn’t realize how you all felt. Now I know. And I’m really depressed. Thanks for the memories. Sorry I can’t join you any more.

Up till now, I didn’t realize the anti-Israel sentiment. But now I just feel stupid.

I have not read any posts/comments at FDL that are anti- Israel. Being anti- Neocon does not make one anti- Israel and you should be able to tell the difference.
FYI, most Israelis want to be rid of Olmert and their neocon government and they have more open discussions about this. Perhaps you could check out some blogs of those Israelis. In it you will find many soldiers calling for Israel’s P.M. and Sec. Def. to resign … you wouldn’t call them anti- Israel, would you?

Mae @ 89

Wow! Hey firedogs, its been so nice sharing with you. I am devastated. I didn’t realize how you all felt. Now I know. And I’m really depressed. Thanks for the memories. Sorry I can’t join you any more.

Up till now, I didn’t realize the anti-Israel sentiment. But now I just feel stupid.

Mae, we do not all feel that way!!!

Mae discussing Israels policies is not anti Jewish. Being able to discuss these issues honestly and openly is as important as discussing the policies of the Bush administration.

Throwing out that “anti-semitic” card is not working any longer. We need to talk about these issues in a respectful and honest way.

If you have never heard or watched the debate about the “Israeli Lobby” at Cooper Union last year this is a must watch. This debate was not covered by C-Span or any other MSM outlets.
On the panel John Measheimer, Dennis Ross, Tony Judt, Shlomo Ben Ami, Rashid Khalid, Martin Indyk!

This debate is well worth taking the time to watch.
http://www.scribemedia.org/200…..ael-lobby/

The Democratic party needs to make it loud and clear to the republics that 11-06 changed everything. They can thumb their noses at their constituents all they want at their own peril. We should NOT budge an inch. Send chimp the same bill over and over and over. The American people are angry, even true conservatives are boiling over with anger at bush. It’s time for the Dems to draw that line in the sand. No more!!!

Hugh @ 106

Mae,

I think we do not believe in justice for some and not for others. Israel has the second best military in the Middle East besides ours. It has 200-300 nuclear weapons. It can be irritated but it can’t be threatened.

It has engaged in a brutal 40 year occupation. You can’t just ignore these things because they are inconvenient or uncomfortable.

Our policies with regard to Israel have often abetted the worse in Israel thinking to the detriment of both countries.

What is currently happening has been happening for 60 years. You might ask why persisting in the same attitudes and ideas that produced the situation today are at all likely to result in a durable peace. It is precisely because our and Israeli policies have not worked that we should look to other ideas.

If you can see the folly of staying the course in Iraq, why can you not see the same folly of doing so in Israel and the West Bank?

Thanks Hugh, I was hoping you’d show up. This discussion will go on and on, but the fact is the majority of Israelis want to resolve the Palestinian issue and move back to pre-1967 borders in exchange for a peace treaty with the Arab world. Their leaders are not listening to the majority of Israelis just as the American President is not listening to his majority.

Hugh @ 106

Mae,

I think we do not believe in justice for some and not for others. Israel has the second best military in the Middle East besides ours. It has 200-300 nuclear weapons. It can be irritated but it can’t be threatened.

It has engaged in a brutal 40 year occupation.
You can’t just ignore these things because

they are inconvenient or uncomfortable.

Our policies with regard to Israel have often abetted the worse in Israel thinking to the detriment of both countries.

What is currently happening has been happening for 60 years. You might ask why persisting in the same attitudes and ideas that produced the situation today are at all likely to result in a durable peace. It is precisely because our and Israeli policies have not worked that we should look to other ideas.

If you can see the folly of staying the course in Iraq, why can you not see the same folly of doing so in Israel and the West Bank?

Because dozens of my family members were killed by the nazis. Because those who survived had nowhere to go. Because my father-in-law returned to Poland in 1945 and others were living in his house. Because no country would allow him in. I believe that my family in Israel has the right to exist. Hamas does not think that they have the right to exist. So where can they go? Can you tell me where my family is supposed to go? Israel has only wanted to live in peace. Hamas does not want peace.

Petrocelli @ 113

Hugh @ 106

Mae,

I think we do not believe in justice for some and not for others. Israel has the second best military in the Middle East besides ours. It has 200-300 nuclear weapons. It can be irritated but it can’t be threatened.

It has engaged in a brutal 40 year occupation. You can’t just ignore these things because they are inconvenient or uncomfortable.

Our policies with regard to Israel have often abetted the worse in Israel thinking to the detriment of both countries.

What is currently happening has been happening for 60 years. You might ask why persisting in the same attitudes and ideas that produced the situation today are at all likely to result in a durable peace. It is precisely because our and Israeli policies have not worked that we should look to other ideas.

If you can see the folly of staying the course in Iraq, why can you not see the same folly of doing so in Israel and the West Bank?

Thanks Hugh, I was hoping you’d show up. This discussion will go on and on, but the fact is the majority of Israelis want to resolve the Palestinian issue and move back to pre-1967 borders in exchange for a peace treaty with the Arab world. Their leaders are not listening to the majority of Israelis just as the American President is not listening to his majority.

Well hey, I agree with you here. This whole discussion got started because it was said that Israel = Hamas. That is what I objected to. That is where I was looking for support. Hamas does not represent all of the Palestinians. Olmert’s government does not represent all Israelis. But I object to saying Israel is doing the same thing as Hamas. That is not true.

Mae @
104

I don’t understand how people on this site can be in favor of Hamas.

I’m disturbed by the ideology behind Hamas and by their so-called Covenant. But for the Israeli and other governments to deny the rights of Palestinians any redress because they have voted to reject Fatah’s corruption in favor of Hamas’s efficiency is collective punishment. I feel ALL Hamas functionaries who have engaged in what could be termed war crimes should be tried in the Hague. I feel ALL war crimes commited by both sides since 1947 need to be revisited. Something like a multi-generational forgiveness and reconciliation committee is what I hope for, but it seems impossible for something like that to happen.

Mae @
114

Hugh @ 106

Mae,

I think we do not believe in justice for some and not for others. Israel has the second best military in the Middle East besides ours. It has 200-300 nuclear weapons. It can be irritated but it can’t be threatened.

It has engaged in a brutal 40 year occupation.
You can’t just ignore these things because

they are inconvenient or uncomfortable.

Our policies with regard to Israel have often abetted the worse in Israel thinking to the detriment of both countries.

What is currently happening has been happening for 60 years. You might ask why persisting in the same attitudes and ideas that produced the situation today are at all likely to result in a durable peace. It is precisely because our and Israeli policies have not worked that we should look to other ideas.

If you can see the folly of staying the course in Iraq, why can you not see the same folly of doing so in Israel and the West Bank?

Because dozens of my family members were killed by the nazis. Because those who survived had nowhere to go. Because my father-in-law returned to Poland in 1945 and others were living in his house. Because no country would allow him in. I believe that my family in Israel has the right to exist. Hamas does not think that they have the right to exist. So where can they go? Can you tell me where my family is supposed to go? Israel has only wanted to live in peace. Hamas does not want peace.

And many of our ancestors fought against those same Nazis to save your people, so let’s not use the guilt card. My people fought and died for their Jewish brothers and sisters, even though we do not share the same faith or heritage. Israel deserves to exist, Jews deserve respect as do all people. What you ask for yourself – peace, justice and freedom – must also be what you demand for others. The Lebanon bombings last year did more to undermine the integrity of Israel and Jews than any comment in this thread.

Ed*ard Teller @ 116

Mae @
104

I don’t understand how people on this site can be in favor of Hamas.

I’m disturbed by the ideology behind Hamas and by their so-called Covenant. But for the Israeli and other governments to deny the rights of Palestinians any redress because they have voted to reject Fatah’s corruption in favor of Hamas’s efficiency is collective punishment. I feel ALL Hamas functionaries who have engaged in what could be termed war crimes should be tried in the Hague. I feel ALL war crimes commited by both sides since 1947 need to be revisited. Something like a multi-generational forgiveness and reconciliation committee is what I hope for, but it seems impossible for something like that to happen.

Hear, hear !

Mr. or Ms. Petrocelli:

Your comments are deeply hurtful. If you feel guilty, don’t blame me. I do want to thank you, however, for curing my recent proclivity to spend time on blogs. I’m long overdue for a walk. Thanks for encouraging me to take it.

And that, she said, is that.

Sincerely,

Mae

Petrocelli @ 117 –

i don’t think many countries acted with honor while the nazis were killing millions of jews… how many jews did the usa allow to come to the usa? not many… anti-semitism here contributed to many deaths.

on the other hand many people acted with courage to do what they could…

i think we need to acknowledge and take into account the genuine (and not unreasonable) fear felt by many jews (especially jewish israelis)

I am sorry for your losses but your family’s persecution can never be used as a justification to persecute others. Nor should you just ignore the fact that Israel is the region’s military “super” power and assert that Israel’s survival is threatened. It isn’t and hasn’t been for something like 5 decades.

Hamas and the Palestinians are largely powerless. Why then do you persist in the belief that they threaten Israel? Hamas could declare that it has plans to invade the moon but just saying so is not going to make it happen.

My advice is to look at how you would feel about the situation in Israel and Palestine if they were in fact two other countries that you had no special emotional attachment to. If you did, I think that your ideas would change. Some Cuban Americans have strong feelings about Cuba that have distorted our relationship with that island. Am I supposed to accept their views simply because they feel strongly about it? Am I to say well Cuba should be embargoed because it is Communist while at the same time we can not move fast enough to invest in China?

selise @ 90

Mae @ 79

Does Israel have the right to exist?

my personal opinion (at this moment) is that i don’t care that much about the rights of states – do they even exist?

i do care very much about the rights of ALL israelis (and ALL palestinians)…

does that make any sense? what is your view on this?

thanks for being willing to discuss this issue…

The “right” is a fair question. That would also apply to the way the U.s. came to be, via the confiscation of land illegally and the oppression of Native Americans and Africans. Both nations Israel and the U.S. came to be via the oppression, suffering and death of others.
Take the “right” out of the statement. ISRAEL DOES EXIST! But Israel needs to abide by UN resolution 242,338 and other UN Resolutions that they are in violation of. Israel needs to move back to the 67 Internationally recognized borders.

Israel needs to sign onto the Non -proliferation Treaty that they demand that their neighbors abide by. go check out the IAEA’S website on “Israels nuclear capabilities and threat to peace in the Middle east”.

http://209.85.165.104/search?q…..ea_org.pdf ISRAEL ‘S NUCLEAR CAPABILITES AND THREAT TO PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=6&gl=us

A few more articles
http://cns.miis.edu/research/wmdme/israel.htm
http://cns.miis.edu/research/wmdme/israel.htm

As long as Israel plays by the rule “do as we say not as we do”. The cycle of violence will continue.

Mae – My father’s family is Jewish but fled before the Nazis came to power. I am well aware of the need for, and fully support, a Jewish homeland. That said it is possible to disagree with the policies of the present Israeli government without being anti-Israel or anti-semitic the same way it is possible to disagree with Bush without being anti-American. America has done some horrible things to the Native Americans (which continues) and to Japanese Americans in WWII, African Americans from slavery on. Deploring those abuses does not make me anti-American. I think the Pups sense that the Palestinians have been mistreated and are in support of a fair result for everyone.

Mae, all peoples of the world want to live in peace. Their leaders’ policies are what is heinous. Israeli and Palestinian people get along fine when their leaders get out of the way. This is a worldwide problem.

Blank Kludge @
97

STTP in Ohio -

You had a question a couple threads back about naming one thing as a Nation we can be proud of?

I know you meant ‘this admin’ but, the results of NOv. 7, 2006 are something to point to. Not least of which is the defeat of your own Mr. DeWine, which was important to getting ‘control’ of Senate.

No, I meant “nation” and your response is a good point I overlooked.

Okay, that’s one….

Any others?

All living beings have a right to exist period.

selise @
120

Petrocelli @ 117 –

i don’t think many countries acted with honor while the nazis were killing millions of jews… how many jews did the usa allow to come to the usa? not many… anti-semitism here contributed to many deaths.

on the other hand many people acted with courage to do what they could…

i think we need to acknowledge and take into account the genuine (and not unreasonable) fear felt by many jews (especially jewish israelis)

Agreed, I have many Jewish friends in multi- cultural Toronto who honestly see their government’s failings to secure peace with their Arab neighbors. The irony is that many Jewish Israelis have open debates about the shortcomings of their government, but we are not allowed to do that here?

I like Mae. She reminds me of several of my friends who truly do hope for something good to eventually come out of the Israel-Palestine tragedy. I hope she comes back, as this dialogue might actually go somewhere some day.

Do any of you see any of my comments as being hurtful or anti-Semitic?

“Let’s start with the Constitution, shall we?”

Oh boy, my favorite! LHP, you rock.

Mae @ 115

Petrocelli @ 113

Hugh @ 106

Mae,

I think we do not believe in justice for some and not for others. Israel has the second best military in the Middle East besides ours. It has 200-300 nuclear weapons. It can be irritated but it can’t be threatened.

It has engaged in a brutal 40 year occupation. You can’t just ignore these things because they are inconvenient or uncomfortable.

Our policies with regard to Israel have often abetted the worse in Israel thinking to the detriment of both countries.

What is currently happening has been happening for 60 years. You might ask why persisting in the same attitudes and ideas that produced the situation today are at all likely to result in a durable peace. It is precisely because our and Israeli policies have not worked that we should look to other ideas.

If you can see the folly of staying the course in Iraq, why can you not see the same folly of doing so in Israel and the West Bank?

Thanks Hugh, I was hoping you’d show up. This discussion will go on and on, but the fact is the majority of Israelis want to resolve the Palestinian issue and move back to pre-1967 borders in exchange for a peace treaty with the Arab world. Their leaders are not listening to the majority of Israelis just as the American President is not listening to his majority.

Well hey, I agree with you here. This whole discussion got started because it was said that Israel = Hamas. That is what I objected to. That is where I was looking for support. Hamas does not represent all of the Palestinians. Olmert’s government does not represent all Israelis. But I object to saying Israel is doing the same thing as Hamas. That is not true.

Israel is quilty of very similar violations as Hamas. Sabra and Shatilla. Many other very serious crimes against Palestinians.

Mae I have talked with many people who have served with the Christian Peace Maker team and have lived with Palestinians many who deal with violent Israeli soldiers and settlers every day. They have witnessed outrageous and humiliating treatment of Palestinian children and people. They have witnessed Palestinian homes confiscated and bulldozed Please do not tell me that their have not been Israeli policies, soldiers and elected officials who have not been as violent and ruthless as Hamas. Because that is a lie!

This is a great website..”If Americans only Knew”

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

Petrocelli @ 127

I have many Jewish friends in multi- cultural Toronto who honestly see their government’s failings to secure peace with their Arab neighbors. The irony is that many Jewish Israelis have open debates about the shortcomings of their government, but we are not allowed to do that here?

Both my brothers-in-law are Jewish. Very different backgrounds in regard to their family histories. They grew up a few blocks from each other in Brooklyn. Both went on to get PhDs in economics. They only met at my mother-in-law’s funeral.

One refuses to discuss Palestinian rights with me. The other brother is quite candid and knowledgeable about the shortcomings of the leadership of both the Palestinians and Israelis. He tells me he argues with himself about Israel every time he takes a shower. My sister says this is OK with her, except when he argues with himself about Israel really, really loud.

Petrocelli @ 129

Do any of you see any of my comments as being hurtful or anti-Semitic?

NO. The FDL team would not let anti-Jewish comments through. Period!

Petrocelli @ 129

Do any of you see any of my comments as being hurtful or anti-Semitic?

No.

Petrocelli @ 129

Do any of you see any of my comments as being hurtful or anti-Semitic?

I think part of the problem was that she was the only one making her points and all of the other points on the issue were opposite of hers. She may have felt like no one was backing her, and therefore she felt ganged up on.

Mae @
114

Hugh @ 106

Mae,

I think we do not believe in justice for some and not for others. Israel has the second best military in the Middle East besides ours. It has 200-300 nuclear weapons. It can be irritated but it can’t be threatened.

It has engaged in a brutal 40 year occupation.
You can’t just ignore these things because

they are inconvenient or uncomfortable.

Our policies with regard to Israel have often abetted the worse in Israel thinking to the detriment of both countries.

What is currently happening has been happening for 60 years. You might ask why persisting in the same attitudes and ideas that produced the situation today are at all likely to result in a durable peace. It is precisely because our and Israeli policies have not worked that we should look to other ideas.

If you can see the folly of staying the course in Iraq, why can you not see the same folly of doing so in Israel and the West Bank?

Because dozens of my family members were killed by the nazis. Because those who survived had nowhere to go. Because my father-in-law returned to Poland in 1945 and others were living in his house. Because no country would allow him in. I believe that my family in Israel has the right to exist. Hamas does not think that they have the right to exist. So where can they go? Can you tell me where my family is supposed to go? Israel has only wanted to live in peace. Hamas does not want peace.

Israeli General Oded Tira said “we must turn to Hillary Clinton … for support to attack Iran.”

And you say Israel wants to live in peace?

GMAFB

Bustednuckles @
21

Thank you for laying this out LooseHeadProp.
I for one, can always use the education. It does help a great deal to understand what is happening and helps give the ability to call BULLSHIT when end runs are attempted at our laws.

Seconded.

Mary McCurnin @
95

The Air Force is fully owned by the Fundies. They follow Bush first and then God. Just like Karl planned when he took the Fundies under his wing.

Under or on the wings of Iggie Pop, or John Ashcroft the popular singer. So sad.

the meeting is over and the rupugs are speaking now. more meetings tomorrow. wonder what happened?

Mae @
119

Mr. or Ms. Petrocelli:

Your comments are deeply hurtful. If you feel guilty, don’t blame me. I do want to thank you, however, for curing my recent proclivity to spend time on blogs. I’m long overdue for a walk. Thanks for encouraging me to take it.

And that, she said, is that.

Sincerely,

Mae

So, Israel only wants peace web site:

http://www.miftah.org/Display……egoryId=23

FYI, New York City Thread

Petrocelli @
118

Ed*ard Teller @ 116

Mae @
104

I don’t understand how people on this site can be in favor of Hamas.

I’m disturbed by the ideology behind Hamas and by their so-called Covenant. But for the Israeli and other governments to deny the rights of Palestinians any redress because they have voted to reject Fatah’s corruption in favor of Hamas’s efficiency is collective punishment. I feel ALL Hamas functionaries who have engaged in what could be termed war crimes should be tried in the Hague. I feel ALL war crimes commited by both sides since 1947 need to be revisited. Something like a multi-generational forgiveness and reconciliation committee is what I hope for, but it seems impossible for something like that to happen.

Hear, hear !

My experience on this front is colored by a stint as an archaeologist in a West Bank town half-way between Haifa and Nablus in 1967, a year after the Six Day War. There were machine gun(?) trenches carved into the top of the Tell we were excavating, overlooking the main highway. Our excavation got permission from both Israelis and Jordanians (who at that time were regarded as administrators of the West Bank, as it was then called). I lived in the Arabic village next to the Tell for 3 months, and learned to speak a little Arabic (badly).

But through my brother, I also had an Israeli connection, and spent some of my free weekends with him and his friends at Hebrew University. I recall one evening spent at a party where I was the only person in the room who could not converse in Hebrew. I also spent one lost weekend, sick as a dog, on a couch in the Haifa apartment of this Jewish friend’s mother, so I had reason to be grateful for their hospitality. I came to Israel as a naive Grad student, on his very first overseas trip, with favorable ideas about Israel. LBJ was our President, and the mantra was, if we sit down and reason together, we can work everything out.

At the end of our work, several of my archaeologist friends and I rented a VW beetle in Jerusalem, and drove ourselves to Beersheba, into Sinai, then through Mitla Pass, up to El Arish, and through Gaza before returning to Jerusalem. With no escort, and no weapons. We didn’t need either, but my Israeli friends were horrified that we would attempt such a journey. We were mainly looking for Biblical sites, and met nothing but friendly people along the way.

What I came to realize during that summer was that “reasoning” was not enough. For every square inch of soil in that land, there were at least two legitimate owners.

What I have come to realize since is that too many Israelis, and too many Palestinians, live according to the Lex Talionis. In a land where “An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth” is the rule, what you get is a land full of eyeless and toothless people. That approach has not worked in Israel, it hasn’t worked in Lebanon, and it is not working for us in Iraq.

Jimmy Carter’s book is a gem. It honors the people of both Israel and Palestine, and shows us a better way.

Bob in HI

John Casper @
137

Bustednuckles @
21

Thank you for laying this out LooseHeadProp.
I for one, can always use the education. It does help a great deal to understand what is happening and helps give the ability to call BULLSHIT when end runs are attempted at our laws.

Seconded.

Thirded.

Bob in HI

Helen @ 135

Petrocelli @ 129

Do any of you see any of my comments as being hurtful or anti-Semitic?

I think part of the problem was that she was the only one making her points and all of the other points on the issue were opposite of hers. She may have felt like no one was backing her, and therefore she felt ganged up on.

I don’t see it that way at all. I think Mae is completely shut down to even considering that Israel has committed very serious moral and ethical violations.

Bob Schacht @ 142

Petrocelli @
118

Ed*ard Teller @ 116

Mae @
104

I don’t understand how people on this site can be in favor of Hamas.

I’m disturbed by the ideology behind Hamas and by their so-called Covenant. But for the Israeli and other governments to deny the rights of Palestinians any redress because they have voted to reject Fatah’s corruption in favor of Hamas’s efficiency is collective punishment. I feel ALL Hamas functionaries who have engaged in what could be termed war crimes should be tried in the Hague. I feel ALL war crimes commited by both sides since 1947 need to be revisited. Something like a multi-generational forgiveness and reconciliation committee is what I hope for, but it seems impossible for something like that to happen.

Hear, hear !

My experience on this front is colored by a stint as an archaeologist in a West Bank town half-way between Haifa and Nablus in 1967, a year after the Six Day War. There were machine gun(?) trenches carved into the top of the Tell we were excavating, overlooking the main highway. Our excavation got permission from both Israelis and Jordanians (who at that time were regarded as administrators of the West Bank, as it was then called). I lived in the Arabic village next to the Tell for 3 months, and learned to speak a little Arabic (badly).

But through my brother, I also had an Israeli connection, and spent some of my free weekends with him and his friends at Hebrew University. I recall one evening spent at a party where I was the only person in the room who could not converse in Hebrew. I also spent one lost weekend, sick as a dog, on a couch in the Haifa apartment of this Jewish friend’s mother, so I had reason to be grateful for their hospitality. I came to Israel as a naive Grad student, on his very first overseas trip, with favorable ideas about Israel. LBJ was our President, and the mantra was, if we sit down and reason together, we can work everything out.

At the end of our work, several of my archaeologist friends and I rented a VW beetle in Jerusalem, and drove ourselves to Beersheba, into Sinai, then through Mitla Pass, up to El Arish, and through Gaza before returning to Jerusalem. With no escort, and no weapons. We didn’t need either, but my Israeli friends were horrified that we would attempt such a journey. We were mainly looking for Biblical sites, and met nothing but friendly people along the way.

What I came to realize during that summer was that “reasoning” was not enough. For every square inch of soil in that land, there were at least two legitimate owners.

What I have come to realize since is that too many Israelis, and too many Palestinians, live according to the Lex Talionis. In a land where “An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth” is the rule, what you get is a land full of eyeless and toothless people. That approach has not worked in Israel, it hasn’t worked in Lebanon, and it is not working for us in Iraq.

Jimmy Carter’s book is a gem. It honors the people of both Israel and Palestine, and shows us a better way.

Bob in HI

Well said. Sounds like an insightful time!

Petrocelli, ET, and Hugh do Mae and all of us a great service by gently speaking the truth and I certainly hope Mae sticks around no matter what her opinion is.. this discussion is needed, imo.

dakine01 @
30

When I worked on DoD contracts, one point that we NEVER allowed contractors to do in any planning documents was to use “will,” “may,” “could,” or “should.” Everything had to be “shall” statements. Anything less, and we’d given ‘em a loophole large enough to drive a semi through.

One of the things overseas contractors, who apply commonsense instead of rules, never could come to terms with. Sometimes, as in the statute quoted by lhp “may” is the correct word.

Petrocelli @
129

Do any of you see any of my comments as being hurtful or anti-Semitic?

not hurtful, nor anti-Semitic, but perhaps something new to some readers… and not every transmission shifts gears smoothly at first

STTP in Ohio @
45

Badwater@24

Vice President Dick Cheney has been calling the shots in Iraq and has even overridden decisions by President Bush and former US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

Shocking!

Next, we’ll find out water is wet.

Point is Hoon saying it. UKG extracting itself from Bush lower regions

lhp – I don’t think it is slam dunk that a USA is an inferior officer. They go through advice and consent and may only be removed by the President. They are subject to DOJ guidelines, and disciplinary action from the AG, but he can’t fire them.

Will Comey’s testimony be public? CSPAN?

I have a question. This wording:

“The president shall have power to fill up all vacancies that may happen during the recess of the senate”

seems unambiguous to me. If a vacancy “may happen” during recess, the president can fill it. But doesn’t this mean that if the vacancy happens during a sitting of senate, he may not? It doesn’t seem to be suggesting that if a vacancy occurs during the sitting of the senate, the president can wait till the recess to fill it. Has there been some clarification of this?

AZ Matt @ 68

Renzi faced cash squeeze

By Alexander Bolton
May 02, 2007

Rep. Rick Renzi (R-Ariz.) took out a $500,000 second mortgage on his Flagstaff home in January after paying more than $300,000 in tax arrears discovered by a Federal Election Commission (FEC) investigation.

The mortgage loan, revealed by Renzi in a document filed with Coconino County, Ariz., is worth the highest possible listed value of his house, and suggests the embattled lawmaker may have faced a substantial cash squeeze at the end of the last Congress.

It may also cast light on $200,000 that came to Renzi two years ago from a business partner. The money exchange has raised eyebrows and suggestions of impropriety.

Around the time Renzi accepted the payment, the FEC launched an investigation of his campaign finances, forcing the lawmaker and his wife to pay an extra $324,000 in federal and state taxes.

The FEC launched its investigation in May 2005 and informed two businesses linked to Renzi of the probe later that month. That same month, James Sandlin, a former business partner, gave Renzi $200,000, a payment now being investigated by the FBI, according to The Wall Street Journal.

Renzi’s lawyer has said Sandlin gave Renzi the money to settle a business debt. But ethics experts interviewed by The Hill last week said the lawmaker should have disclosed it on forms filed with the Clerk of the House. The fact that Renzi did not report the payment could be cited as evidence that he intended to conceal it, said one expert.

The half-million dollar loan on the Renzi residence at 2063 Raintree Road came on top of a $100,000-$250,000 mortgage he took out on the same property in 2005.

In his most recent finacial disclosure report, Renzi reported assets worth between $250,000 and $550,000. His spouse reported owning an insurance company, Patriot Insurance, worth between $1 million and $5 million. Most of Renzi’s wealth is tied up in real estate: He reported owning assets in three funds worth between $3,000 and $45,000.

…

Link

You Americans never cease to amaze me. You even expect criminals to pay taxes!

Badwater @ 72

Bush today on Iraq: “But slowly but surely, the truth will be known. Either we’ll succeed, or we won’t succeed.”

Republics, again, why do you support anything about this guy?

AAAAAH Yes! Now I see it!!!!

Mae @ 114

Hugh @ 106

Mae,

I think we do not believe in justice for some and not for others. Israel has the second best military in the Middle East besides ours. It has 200-300 nuclear weapons. It can be irritated but it can’t be threatened.

It has engaged in a brutal 40 year occupation.
You can’t just ignore these things because

they are inconvenient or uncomfortable.

Our policies with regard to Israel have often abetted the worse in Israel thinking to the detriment of both countries.

What is currently happening has been happening for 60 years. You might ask why persisting in the same attitudes and ideas that produced the situation today are at all likely to result in a durable peace. It is precisely because our and Israeli policies have not worked that we should look to other ideas.

If you can see the folly of staying the course in Iraq, why can you not see the same folly of doing so in Israel and the West Bank?

Because dozens of my family members were killed by the nazis. Because those who survived had nowhere to go. Because my father-in-law returned to Poland in 1945 and others were living in his house. Because no country would allow him in. I believe that my family in Israel has the right to exist. Hamas does not think that they have the right to exist. So where can they go? Can you tell me where my family is supposed to go? Israel has only wanted to live in peace. Hamas does not want peace.

America????