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George Tenet seems to be inspiring everyone to new candor. Ray McGovern on Tucker, talking about the Niger forgeries:
TUCKER: That memo came from abroad.MCGOVERN: Some of it came from abroad, but you know if you trace the memo back, and see the characters who are involved, it's my appreciation that the memo leads right back to the doorstep of the Vice President of the United States.
TUCKER: So the Vice President you believe forged -- now if the Vice President was behind that forgery, don't you think he would have done a better job?
MCGOVERN: I don't think he and Lynn, you know, sat down and did it. I think they farmed it out to a cottage industry of former intelligence agents that did a rather amateurish job.
TUCKER: Who specifically?
MCGOVERN: Well, I...there are people who work for Cheney who are in very close who were in very close touch with the Italians, who actually worked for the Italians.
TUCKER: Do you have any evidence? That's a huge deal.
MCGOVERN: Sure.
TUCKER: Presumably an impeachable offense, immoral as hell...so who did it?
MCGOVERN: Well these are like the plummers.
TUCKER: Right, but can you be a lot more specific since you are alleging this crime?
MCGOVERN: I won't be any more specific right here, but the names have been in the public domain. The people who traveled to Rome and to other countries in Europe to set up this kind of thing, to work with the Italians to get this stuff made.
TUCKER: So you have no evidence at all that that it's true that you are willing to share publicly?
MCGOVERN: I have some evidence but I am not willing to share it right here and now.
Time to share, Ray.
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Rove fits in here somwhere.
Jane!
Good catch Jane - it was quite an interesting little exchange!
Impeach chainy now!
Who is Ray McGovern?
Time to share, Ray.
Indeed, because this claim connecting the names in the public domain of people who traveled to Rome to work with the Italians has been pursued by a number of excellent reporters, and none of them has found a shred of evidence to support the claim.
So I call bullshit.
It would be spectacular if this were true. Does Ray McGovern have credibility?
Rats, just missed the zed. I just finished reading that last post about Hannity. (Catching up after being gone awhile.) I so love to hear that the right is melting, melting. Now if we can Cheney Cheney, Rove and Boy King. . . .
Not Rove, his job is to take events and turn them into political advantages. Matters of foreign
diplomacywars are outside his bag. This has the stench of Rumsfeld and his personal intelligence agency inside the DoD. Since Rumsfeld is little more than Cheney’s agent, well…WOW!
Sounds like fun.
OT. I’m in PA meeting the people who are hopefully going to call me to be their new minister.
Just went house hunting today and found one I like. I knew that the area is split between Gerlach and Pitts, neither of which I want to “do business” with. Well, I just typed in the zip code of the house and it is in Sestack’s CD!!!
Happy camper here!
Oh, and Hi everyone. Won’t be around much this week. Will check in when I can.
The real question is this:
Is there ANYthing criminal in this government that Cheney isn’t behind?
If push comes to shove Cheney is jettisonable. Not so with Rove.
Rove the micro-manager knows all the details. Of everything.
I assume he’s talking about Ledeen connecting with Martino, but can he prove it?
Maybe this is why Condi doesn’t want to talk under oath.
from wikipedia:
“Now, therefore, I, John Ellis Bush, President of the United States, pursuant to the pardon power conferred upon me by Article II, Section 2, of the Constitution, have granted and by these presents do grant a full, free, and absolute pardon unto George W. Bush for all offenses against the United States which he, George W. Bush , has committed or may have committed or taken part in during the period from January 20, 2001 through August 9, 2007.”
Balrog @ 5
Ray McGovern Confronts Rumsfeld on KO.
OT and EPU’d - Israeli Commission on the Lebanon War:
The prime minister made up his mind hastily, despite the fact that no detailed military plan was submitted to him and without asking for one…
Also, his decision was made without close study of the complex features of the Lebanon front and of the military, political and diplomatic options available to Israel.
All of these add up to a serious failure in exercising judgment, responsibility and prudence….
Israel’s government in its plenum failed in its political function of taking full responsibility for its decisions.
It did not explore and seek adequate response for various reservations that were raised, and authorised an immediate military strike that was not thought-through and suffered from over-reliance on the judgment of the primary decision-makers.
Does this sound like someone else we know?
He’s talking about Michael Ledeen. But he’s afraid of being slapped with a lawsuit. Ledeen met in Rome with Iranian exiles in December 2001 — Rocco Martino was apparently at that meeting — and he’s the guy that tried to sell the docs to the Italian Journalist who was on Fresah Air the other day — Carla somebody.
Ray McGovern has plenty of credibility, I really do hope he has some evidence. I’ve thought for years that it would lead back to Cheney, paraphrasing the catchphrase from the movie All the President’s Men, “follow the documents.”
My theory on the forger: Michael Ledeen.
Jeff @
6
One person’s “excellent reporter” is another person’s “agenda hornet.”
Please cite sources…
Michael Ledeen…
…was in Rome, according to Tenet on 60 Minutes last night in Jan ‘02.
Joe Wilson’s trip to Niger occured in Feb. ‘02.
Hmmmmm…
Bebimbob @ 14
I immediately thought the same thing re Ledeen.
First find who forged the Dan Rather Texas ANG papers.
That story, and its aftermath, killed the 60 Minutes
story on the Niger documents.
McGovern has some credibility. He is fairly tight with Larry Johnson. The two of them, along with Phil Giraldi and Jim Marcinkowski recently sent a letter to Tenet demanding he give his Medal of Freedom back. Larry Johnson has also been emphasizing a recent book on the Italian forgeries. I think these ex-CIA guys have their ducks lined up, are pissed and they are going to start letting fly. They are all also very close to Valerie Plame Wilson. Something significant is happening here.
Throwing this out there, because I remember listening to this program, and maybe there is something in it (interview with Italian reporter who investigated this story on NPR, fairly recent)
http://www.npr.org/templates/s.....Id=9847141
Anyone remember that funny hearing that Conyers had to have in a basement room because the rethugs wouldn’t let him have a hearing room? Well McGovern was one of the star witnesses in that. He oozes credibility. I sure hope he’s got the goods on this one. Boyoboy.
RevDeb @
10
you found a house in one day of house hunting!?! wow, sounds like there are forces at work….
Who do I thank for watching Tucker so I don’t have to?
I would assume that a man with the background that McGovern has, documents and photocopies everything that smells bad.
The book I think Larry is talking about is The Italian Letter — story may be picking up some Middle America traction — I bought it at Costco where it was sitting next to Tom Delay’s book.
Those documents didn’t appear by magic. It’s even more curious that they appear in the vicinity of Ledeen.
All roads lead to Rome…and Ledeen. He’s in this up to his eyeballs. He’ll never talk though. Someone else will have to break.
This is not new for Ray to speak out on this topic. He was here on LI last fall asying the same things.
I am so glad he is finally getting a wider audience.
You know when you meet someone ad you know right away they are the real deal? That’s what happened when I first met Ray.
Ray McGovern is not a nut, he is not a disgruntled employee. He is a decent honorable man trying to get the truth out and in a way where it won’t be dismissed or swept under the rug.
He is also wise enough to know that this story (and it’s a doozy) has to build with a drip drip drip.
He’s got the goods, but knows that there is lots more out there that he doesn’t have –yet.
If he gets the Marcy’s and Josh’s of this world on the case, the rest of the muck will come to light.
Ray’s gots lots of breadcrumbs. Follow them and I don’t think you will be disappointed.
I am so glad he has finally decided the time has come to make his move.
GO Ray!
ANyone else getting the impression that Waxman has his eye on this also?
My guess: Valerie’s got the evidence, too.
This could be huge.
It’s Ledeen and friends. Everyone knows it’s Ledeen and friends. Everyone in Washington has known from the beginning, but it’s been considered indelicate to even mention such a thing.
Musn’t offend the Vice President. Heavens.
A national security council member during the Clinton administration is now serving as a Consul General in Italy — she might be a good source on this.
Badwater @ 16
That’s what my crystal ball showed awhile back (your crystal ball is funnier, nice touch on 8/9 re RMN.)
However, there’s no way Jeb Bush would be confirmed by the Senate as V.P.
T’will be time for torches and pitchforks…
Cliff Varnell @ 21
Laura Rozen and Knut Royce, to begin with.
And note that his has to be slapped down before it gets going:
Rocco Martino was apparently at that meeting
No one has ever claimed that Martino - who passed the forgeries around and may have been involved in their production - was at that Rome meeting in December 2001.
Can Conyers subpoena Ledeen?
RevDeb @ 10
Congradulations you lucky dog.
This is getting too exciting! The good guys have GOT to win this one.
Duh - Ledeen. I think Josh Marshall probably agrees, although he is too scrupulous to engage in such fun speculation.
How long do you think it will take him to respond?
http://pajamasmedia.com/xpress/michaelledeen/
[Mod Note; let’s not rush to give the man any extra traffic.]
Here is a time frame of the Niger Embassy theft in Rome http://www.shystee.com/shystee.....03_07.html
It seems pretty obvious that the break in was part of the administration plot. Cheney, Rummy, Chimp, who cares who was the final approval for the theft and forgery they are all guilty as hell.
Bring back the stocks!
Cliff Varnell @ 21
Oh yeah, and also Carlo Bonini, coauthor of Collusion, expert on the Niger forgeries, and subject of a Book Salon here where he was praised to heavens.
Ledeen is the guy we should send to gitmo (if we send anyone) before these draconian new laws are reversed.
beyond treason, let me count the ways.
weaving a tissue of lies: Ledeen Broderie?
selise and Lisa,
Haven’t made an offer on it and others to look at, but I’d be quite happy there. Mr. Rev. shows up Wed. night and we’ll go together on Thursday to look at it and others, but I’d be quite happy.
FYI, last time I looked for a house I looked at 50 or more before making a decision. This seems like it is meant to be.
Wait til the troops find out. They think they’re fighting the people who attacked us in 2001.
When they discover they went to war because their VP forged documents….
RevDeb @
27
Milbank’s snarky writeup.
Jeff @ 44
Bonini was also interviewed on Fresh Air.
It’s Ledeen and Hadley
Michael Ledeen. Oh yes! A fascist neocon nutcase. Preening pompous ass. He’s on this like flies on sh_t. Sent his daughter to Iraq in the Bremer days to thrash around and do nothing on the State Department’s dime. One of the college kids who knew nothing except how to infuriate anyone there who did. Thanks to Ole 60 grits husbands approval.
I defy McGovern to share the evidence. Otherwise he should stick to facts and truth - there are more than enough of ‘em to be a problem for this administration - and stop with the insinuations that he knows something. Which, by the way, he’s been at for months and months without ever offering the tiniest shred of evidence.
We need evidence or we end up like Dan Rather and the bush draft dodging scandal this could be a sucker play! Take a weakness and make it a strength isn’t that Karl’s favorite tactic. If Karl sets off a fake media buzz about fake evidence and gets us all hyped for impeachment then exposes his own fake story we lose! Why appear on Tucker’s show Keith Obermen pass on the story maybe a creditbilty problem? If Fox and the Rightwing media picks up this story quick and responds with ALL THE SAME TALKING POINTS AGAIN then we might have been had again! Karl is trying to deflate impeachment as an option BEFORE we get a REAL CASE. On the good side Karl HAS to be worried about something impeachable coming to light soon. Let’s wait until we got a better target!
selise @ 28
I’d found two houses online that interested me when I was fooling around one day. I was barely serious about looking for a house, but these two were in the absolute dream location for me. So I said what the hell and called up the realtor. The first house we wanted had gone into sale pending that very day. So we looked at the second one. It was love at first sight, for all of us (husband, son and me). Just the perfect home for us. We were living in it about a month later. Happy happy joy joy!
It happens.
Did Tucker Faye throw up his hands and say it doesn’t matter anyway because it no longer matters how we got into this mess. What is important is how to get out and the Democrats don’t have a plane. Then he squinches up his face to appear thoughtful.
Jeff @
53
Word.
We got enough to impeach the fucker up right now.
RevDeb @
10
Congratulations to the people that are going to have you as their minister. They are very fortunate.
omg. please, God, let it be so. and let’s hope this time we have the evidence to back it up. this would make an impeachable offense.
And who says that Cheney’s energy task force should remain anonymous?
Cheney has committed treason and should be subjected to the highest penalty allowed under the Constitution!!
Carla del Ponte was the other journalist mentioned with Rocco Martino, according to this reporting by Laura Rozen.
Katherine Graham Cracker @ 56
If fucker knarlson was any kind of journalist he would quit licking the ass of bushco and do some investigation of his own.
Ray Mcgovern was one of the first to speak out against Rumsfeld. He is a patriot.
lolo
Oklahoma kiddo @
12
I humbly beg to differ, OK. I greatly honor your opinions (most notably in the area of Her Royal Clintonness), but Bush is an empty suit. Rove is there to prop him up. Cheney is the evil power behind the throne. Cheney must go first!
Ray McGovern is one of the founders of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity.
He has been travelling around the country, mostly at his own expense, and sleeping on people’s couches trying to get thsi story out.
I helped set up a speaking venure for him at a local university.
Jane, he not only can speak out, he wants to speak out, but if he shoots his whole wad on day one, and no one ever gets into the weeds following the trail, it will be easy to dismiss him and his story because the facts are necessarily complicated.
It’s like Libby. Unless the facts came out, drip drip drip, so that there was time to anylize and digest each piece before moving on the next, the American people would never have “gotten” it.
Well, McGovern’s story is just as complicated and subject to being buried in spin. And never forget what has happend to Sybil Edmonds.
This has to come out one bit at a time and other folks with pieces of the puzzle will need to start their engines now too.
McGovern’s not hold out on us, he is trying to give it in measured doses so we can digest it all
DC Madam on NPR, 5:24 EST.
puppethead @
9
Rove has his hand in everything. He is the guy behind the curtain(like in the Wizard of Oz).
Ray McGovern has tremendous credibility.
Most things about Ray McGovern have been pointed out already, but let me share the fact that Ray McGovern is a member of both the international and the USA ‘whistleblower’s club’. He has been instrumental in helping other whistle blowers come forward the way they’ve done.
He was also instrumental in helping Jesselyn Radack get her book published. (She is not the only one.)
http://www.patriotictruthteller.net or http://www.dailykos.com (She has been posting diaries there as well.)
skigurl @
39
of course he can. But Henry or Leahy would have an easier time of it.
What is the venue Ray seeks to tell what he knows? Could he have Condi’s open slot at Waxman’s hearing, since she seems likely not to show up? Showing interest in hearing from Ray McGovern might get Condi’s butt in a hearing room chair, pronto.
loosehead 65…
Agreed completely! But if Ray says there is something, I’m sure that he is working behind the scenes to protect other whistle blowers.
With what we do know so far, what rings true?
McGovern actually works for the Administration and is throwing out a red herring so that Rove can turn it around and use it for his own purposes.
McGovern is just throwing out an insinuation so that he can get booked on TV shows.
McGovern has definite evidence, and it will be coming out.
McGovern is the forger.
McGovern goes over the top sometimes in ways that hurt his credibility. Eg, at the Conyers basement hearing mentioned by RevDeb, McGovern made a lame attempt at glib humor that was so embarrassing that John Stewart held it up to ridicule that night.
If he’s got the goods, he should share them, and if not, he should hold his peace rather than make like a loose cannon.
BTW, a couple of years ago, Sy Hersh theorized that the Niger forgery may have been concocted not by the Cheney crew but by people at the CIA who wanted to embarrass the Administration by seeding their case for war with “evidence” so obviously bogus that it would call the rest of their manufactured case into question. Except that their plan backfired because they underestimated the incuriosity and credulity of Congress, the press, and the public.
I’d like to know if Hersh’s hunch has ever been definitively ruled out.
Just wait until the Sibel Edmonds stuff becomes common knowledge. That will be the end of the wingnuts FOREVER!
TeddySanFran @ 70
Great idea Teddy.
AJ @ 19
I believe you may be confusing Rocco Martino, with ANTONIO Martino, the Italian defense minister who was at a meeting with Ledeen during Dec. 2001.
Eureka Springs @
45
Tut. We Democrats don’t torture. But we can work something out. There are lots of soon-to-be-unemployed Republicans in Washington who would probably be thrilled to waterboard their best friend in exchange for a few sex-free massages and a golf outing in Scotland.
TeddySanFran @ 71
I don’t think venue is the issue per se, I think it is a matter of letting the story gain traction and having other people who can corroborate what he is saying feel that it is either safe enough to come out into the daylight, or that even if dangerous, it is still likely to be a successful effort and so therefore worth the sacrifice.
Remember, these are not rich people, these “career” civil servants.They have kids to put through college and retirements to worry about. Before you ask somebody to through away the security they have worked their whole lives for, you have to make it likely that their sacrifice will not be in vain.
ralphbon @ 73
This sounds too clever by half. If the CIA had wanted to make the Niger documents look like honest fakes,
they would have done a hell of a better job than whoever did it.
Okay,another naive observation but while were on the subject of everyone’s favorite Dick, why is there zero outrage over the fact that Doctor Evil continually reports a hefty seven figure taxable income each year from the VEEP-ship, when the only adult life private sector employment he ever had was in those years between 41 and 43 when he CEO’d at Halliburton? Let’s not even deal with the notion that no private sector experience 20 years of Gov’t contacts = “top dog.” That smells bad enough.
Out here in SoCal, this continuum of boxcar income levels for the VEEP make the Dukester seem like a rank amateur, but nobody says “boo?” The VP’s annual salary is a shade above $200,000 a year - where’d the other Million - Five come from last year? Or the 8 or 9 million in 2004 or 2005? Inquiring minds wanna know . . .
Maybe Waxman already has the evidence and that is why he wants to get Condi in. Don’t you legal eagles always say not to ask a question you don’t already have the answer to? Get them all in, one by one lying under oath, and then… KABLAMBO!
RevDeb @
48
Please check out a web site called zillow.com It can give you a lot of pertinent info about the house(s) and neighborhood including the basic specs and how others in neighborhood have sold.
ralphbon at 73 McGovern goes over the top sometimes in ways that hurt his credibility. Eg, at the Conyers basement hearing mentioned by RevDeb, McGovern made a lame attempt at glib humor that was so embarrassing that John Stewart held it up to ridicule that night.
If he’s got the goods, he should share them, and if not, he should hold his peace rather than make like a loose cannon.
Sooo, his joke fell flat and that means he’s not credible? Sorry.
I view him as a whistleblower of the first rank who is risking his life, quite literally, to bring us the truth.
Listen to looseheadprop, please?
The NeoCons are going to rue the day they messed with the CIA. They’re not like the front-line soldiers who go to battle without body armor, but can’t fight back against Bush. Nope. The CIA can use resources nobody’s even heard of to dig for information and then use it in the most plainly legal manner to destroy. Sure they get blamed for missing some things, but they’re always on the cutting edge and are bound to get cut now and then. In this “Niger documents” case all the evidence is just there waiting to be discovered and pieced together. There’s no opposing side which can really stop it.
Tenet may have held ‘em back, but don’t count ‘em out just yet.
Don’t mess with the spooks. Val knows where Georgie Boy lives.
OT..but the same stinking rot..
JUSTICE DEPARTMENT
Secret Order By Gonzales Delegated Extraordinary Powers To Aides
By Murray Waas, National Journal
National Journal Group Inc.
Monday, April 30, 2007
http://news.nationaljournal.co.....430nj1.htm
LS @ 73
NO, McGovern resigned from this administration so that he could speak out.
this guy has been travelling on his own dime for months trying to tell a story that brings him no personal sucess and could hold him up to ridicule if folks deride him as a nut
That’s the plan
That would make for a great spy novel
*g*
Looseheadprop I like your stuff and I don’t doubt this guy is on the side of the angels, but Dan Rather got fooled once and that disaster alone probably cost Kerry the election. We have to be careful. We have to see how quick and how the Right Wing Media responds to this story. Of course if this story is true left wing doubts about the story can only increase the hype as with a steady drip of facts that can be verifed we add to the tension. I suggest the left play this by acting all kinds of skeptical and keep demanding proof, the better to sustain the drama.
dakine01 @ 82
unsolicited advice: if the home of your dreams is already in contract, consider making a back-up offer. A lot of real estate transactions fall through. Although, ironically, the presence of an accepted back-up can get bring fussy buyers to their senses right quick.
looseheadprop @ 85
Nancy Drew 101…;P
RevDeb @ 48
Best luck!
dakine01 @ 82
Excellent site! Also http://www.coldwellbanker.com/ Learn…Home Value Estimate
This is nuclear! The ‘Mushroom Cloud’… ‘Smoking Gun’!!! Mixing and mauling metaphors, aughhhh…..
Betcha Ray knows the forger, though. (WAG)
1,502 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Jeff:
“I defy McGovern to share the evidence. Otherwise stick to the facts and truth..”
Now, brother Jeff, be careful who you “insinuate” isn’t tellin’ the truth…McGovern is a “professional” which means (in any line a work) his statements will reflect a code of ethics and reason. Beyond that, McGovern possesses something that few in political power have any appreciation for: intellectual honesty. His service to this country over 27 years for administrations of BOTH parties has earned himself a degree credibility that is beyond baseless attacks from folks like you.
So, unless you have some shops ta bring into the ring, Jeff, let me give you a friendly warnin’ that my old Grampa Ole used ta give charlatans and deadbeats that would sit at his poker table: “Don’t let your mouth write any checks that you ass can’t cash.”
Just a bit of advice that, if ya have even a pinch a sense, you’ll take.
KEEP THE FAITH AND WATCH OUT FOR TROLLS…THEY COME OUT WHEN THE WEATHER’S NICE!!
egregious @ 84
Unfortunately, McGovern has the problem that many honest, “Joe Friday- just the facts, Ma’am” types have. Whenever he tries to say something snarky or cynical, it just falls flat.
Which is not to say that he does not have a sense of humor. He does irony (my favorite form of humor) quite well.
things come undone @ 88
Listen Ray McGovern was the first to speak out about many things. Please listen! Looseheadprop is right!
OfT: The benefit of a single-term governorship, as (only?) Virginia has:
I am amazed that Tucker had him on his show. The times they are a changing!
Did Cheney go to great lengths to out CIA Agent Valerie Plame because Dick’s ego is really that big or is there more to it - such as Cheney’s complicity in passing the Niger forgeries if not actually writing them?
Protecting Dick Cheney’s ego or hiding treason - which is it? In the Libby trial, Libby’s defense was determined to push the timeline to May-July 2003 and was adverse to talking about December 2002. Why?
Look the CIA has been so incompetent for so long, it is hard to fathom who McGovern is or whether he has any degree of real competence. But it is for sure is that the Clintons appointed Tenet (And Anthony Lake their first choice was just a Cyrus Vance sycophant and not any better) and Tenet is the absolute bottom of the barrel. Stupid, incompetent, ambitious, the guy actually bonded with Bush.
lolo @ 98
That alone gives me pause, though.
Careful not to jump too far with this one!
Martino is a minor and probably unimportant character in this story - most likely just the delivery vehicle.
Unless Mr. McGovern has something more specific about Cheney’s direct involvement that he doesn’t want to tell us, this is ground that was covered 2-3 years ago. Check out Marcy’s (Emptywheel at Next Hurrah) and eRiposte’s (at Left Coaster) posts on the forgeries. And TPM of course. The so-called “secret” Ledeen /Ghorbanifar meeting in Italy is well known.
I wonder if Mr. McGovern will want to divulge any more on this topic? (Remember Seymour Hersh’s rather different suggestion about the origins of the documents, or at least how they got into the “system”).
things come undone @ 88
How about we do what we have been doing with the other scandals? Gather up all the open source material and organize it? Marcy’s got a ton of that research done already in cinnection with her book. You might be surprised
Joe Conason’s “It CAN Happen Here” (FDL Book Salon some months back) discusses Ledeen at some length. It was worth taking a break to type some of Conason’s ‘highlights’ about Ledeen:
Ledeen, p. 38 “… his name has frequently surfaced in twilight intrigues and questionable circumstances, occassionally drawing the attention of prosecutors both here and in Italy.…on more than one occasion, he has set up back-channel communications with foreign intelligence agencies…
— [studied and worked in Rome, probably late 1970s]… allegedly befriended some of the most disreputable characters on the Italian far right, including rogue intelligence agents…
— In the late 1970s, he is known to have advised SISMI, the Italian military intelligence service, on the subject of combatting terrorism…
— …played a central role in the Iran-Contra affair…suspected of involvement with the perpetrators of the Niger uranium forgeries, which reached the National Security Council via Italian intelligence agents…
— … worked with OSP… used … to circumvent the CIA and promote Chalibi’s WMD tales…”
p 40, “… He has called for total war, a term with terrible connotations of civilian carnage and merciless domination…[believes war will hasten] ‘creative destruction”
Ledeen is evidently an admirer of ‘creative destruction’ and has an affinity for fascism. Considers himself a scholar of the subject.
He is one of the few ‘foreign policy advisors’ regularly consulted by K-k-karl Rove.
IIRC, Condi has used the term ‘creative destruction’ when referencing war in the Middle East. Anyone recall?
———-
Lots more in Consason’s book, but I best get back to work (!).
Meanwhile, if Hannity swings by for a look-see, he would no doubt be shocked (shocked!) to learn that some lefty commenters are PTA members of long standing. Too bad that PTA moms like me are placing a ’stranglehold’ on the Democratic party.
Jane, you are clearly a very bad influence ;-))
TeddySanFran @ 100
I know, the angels are smiling down on us today. Tucker is stupid he probably never heard of Ray before.
lolo @ 96
I want this to be true. I am open minded to being convinced. Looseheadprops is saying the story is going to drip evidence. Then I will wait until my cup is more than half full of drips. I just don’t want the left to loose the impeachment option because McGovern might have got fooled like Dan Rather did. We can’t start calling for impeachment until we have more evidence, because it would hurt our creditabilty if we are wrong.
lolo @ 105
Tucker’s old man is in charge of Libby’s defense fund.
That already gives it a certain odor.
silence is complicity @
72
I agree. Let’s give McGovern more time to play this out. It’d be nice to hear Marcy weigh in on this. I’m in the camp that blieves Ledeen at least knew some of what was coming down when the Niger myth was being fabricated.
Damn, I was hoping it was Shawn Hannity who did it after watching the video at Jane’s earlier thread. His time is coming soon, though. HehHeh..
lolo @ 105
perhaps he assumed Ray was George McGovern’s nephew and was all set to do some liberal-bashing at his expense.
Ledeen’s fingerprints are all over the run-up to war against Iran.
It can still happen.
Wow, watch the whole interview here:
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/....._0430.html
looseheadprop @ 103
Ok,
reign_ is right about the odor.
punaise! Ver-r-ry nice!
aj at 19
eyes on the street at 26
npr.org link
am catching up in comments, so don’t know if anyone mentions this later—–
the same reporter who was here a week ago last sunday on book salon? carlo? go read the post and comments, was excellent…….know he was on fresh air, but don’t know about the papers being offered to him by martino, didn’t read his book yet.
Those who are asking for links and sources, ever consider that information is not always provided second hand?
Jeff at 38 & LJ at 77 –
Of course you’re right — wrong Martino.
LHP - I certainly don’t have the first hand knowledge of McGovern you do, but I have been paying pretty close attention to Larry Johnson, McGovern et. al. for some time now and I agree with your take completely. I also immediately sensed that something had changed today, McGovern’s inflection and the certainty with which he indicated he had the goods to back up his claim. Also the way it dovetails with Tenet’s book, the Italian Letter book, the group excoriation of Tenet etc. I could be totally wrong, but it feels different; like they (McGovern, Johnson, Giraldi, Marcinkowski) are finally making their play.
Tenet was appointed by the Clintons in place of Tony Lake who never impressed me. But Tenet is the pitts, stupid, incompetent and ambitious who found his soulmate in Bush. Sandy Berger was also appointed by the Clintons, unstable is an understatement to describe him. So who are Hillary and Bill going to bring to fore if elected, why Richard Holbrooke, the worst of the group.
The CIA has been so incompetent for so long that who knows about McGovern. He has to overcome some assumptions and presumptions and he seems smart enough to know that. But I would pay attention to what he has to say.
When you watch the video, notice his tone of voice when he refers to Lynn Cheney!!! What was she up to at that time? What was Berlusconi up to at that time?
“I don’t think he and Lynn, you know, sat down and did it. I think they farmed it out to a cottage industry of former intelligence agents that did a rather amateurish job.”
things come undone @ 107
more evidence? HA!
things come undone @ 88
Kerry won 2004. Ohio was fixed bigtime. Gore won 2000. If we keep being careful, they’ll steal 2008 too. The Dan Rather situation was beyond stupid, but this is different. The Rather sap job wouldn’t have happened if his CBS staff and producers had done their friggin’ jobs.
Ed*ard Teller @ 109
NorskeFlamethrower @
95
You’re a wise one, Norske — and let’s all keep in mind that hungry trolls will go elsewhere to find kibble if they don’t find it here . . .
Ed*ard Teller @ 122
Maybe someone on his staff set him up.
“Careful not to jump too far with this one!”
I wrote a note to eriposte asking for his reaction to this conversation. So we may get an update there.
keith
Mary McCurnin @ 124
And the parade of blog-by omniscience, and reminiscence, continues, with this number from August 2006, though I’m a little behind the thread and this relates to Jane’s “…Smells Like Fear” post*
**
* I’m not just uber-formidable, I’m super-uber-formidable. And yeah, I got even earlier ones on the same theme about Fox jumping the shark and why.
** Not even I can take credit for the incredibly apt use of the words “move on” in the above post. But I would if I could.
knock knock
who is it?
It’s the Plumber. I’ve come to fix the sink!
Steve @ 87
Wow. Worth reading. Thanks Steve.
Are we going to run out of Reps to indict before all the charges are heard? *g*
I definitely pay attention to what McGovern has to say, but I do admit to feeling a sensation of queasiness while watching him in the *basement hearing*.
He had this Mike Malloy vibe, which is probably just a way of speaking, but MM also made me squirm a bit and I found him unlistenable. Not because of his politics but a certain type of *histrionic* delivery.
Neither here nor there, but something about McGovern gives me pause.
Tucker repeat now!
yeah, whatever, EPU
What book should I read to better understand all the twists and turns of this story?
I am assuming, though no onehas told me this,that if Mcovern is doing Tucker’s show that it is meant to be part of a rollout. (you know, the way Ambassador Wilson had several appearances in close proximity to the fateful Op Ed)
At least I hope it is.
So, I’m going to keep my eyes peeled for OpEds and other appearnaces in the near future.
bmaz @ 119
I certainly hope so
Egregious and LHP, I take McGovern and the other Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity folk very seriously, but I also keep a weather eye out for signs of hidden agendas and inappropriate horn-tooting, and those raise red flags. I feel the same way about the reporting of Greg Palast.
Cautious skepticism is not the same as dismissal.
solai @ 134
Marcy’s next one.
*g*
We’ll be able to tell how serious a threat McGovern is by how much the rightwing trashes him in the next few days.
looseheadprop @ 133
Do you think his and Larry Johnson’s letter to Tenet, coordinated with the book rollout, are well-timed simply to capture media interest? “Oh, look, the CIA, here’s an ex-CIA guy, let’s book him on the show.” Or are you suggesting a rollout of something bigger, with more whistleblowers and more datapoints?
Very quiet from Wilson-ville lately, btw.
Tithonia @ 129
CYA
Mary McCurnin @
125
Possible, but not likely. All the documents referred to in the CBS story had been mentioned for some time before that story at sites following Bush’s AWOL TNG days, but the originals were purported to have been destroyed in 2000 or earlier when Bush was TX gov. The stuff sent from the TX Mailboxes etc. site was doctored, but close enough to what was believed to possibly exist to sucker people at CBS who didn’t ask themselves any real hard questions on authenticity.
Michael Ledeen’s fingerprints are all over this one. The Ghorbanifar meeting is likely a distraction for his handing over the forgeries to SISMI at the same time. He had to know Ghorbanifar was being watched by some sort of intelligence agency, if not the Israelis then the Saudis or French or any number of interested parties. It would be a perfect cover for handing over those docs to his SISMI handlers, whom I think he was and is working for. In fact I remember it was a French intelligence source that first brought up the forgeries so we know the French know more on this than they’ve let on.
Peterr @ 138
“Anatomy of Discrete”
lolo
I see you got your Zunday Zed Zweep!
WooHoo!
You folks move too fast for me, I missed most of the last thread and this one too.
I did , however, think Ledeen when I read the piece.
There was much that was glossed over during the Libby trial and I was hoping to see this explored more.
ralphbon @ 139
I agree
And the second sequel: Anatomy of Three-peat.
It really pisses me off that Olbermann continues to have him on Countdown on a regular basis.
Why did he drop Lynn Cheney’s name…there was no “apparent” reason for him to phrase it that way. He was very deliberate in what he said and how he said it.
About Michael Ledeen’s “Ties to Italian Intelligence” as earlier as 1980 (”Billygate”):
http://www.sourcewatch.org/ind.....ael_Ledeen
Ray McGovern fingered Ledeen as a suspect almost two years ago, referencing Vincent Cannistraro as an authority:
http://www.antiwar.com/mcgovern/?articleid=6706
Two things I have read - I will look for sources: 1. SISMI (Italian CIA) investigated themselves and said that they did not intentionally mislead the USA and 2. the forgeries came from two individuals who worked in an embassy; they were paid $2000 each (basically pennies), but by whom has not been answered (that I know of).
solai @ 135
Here’s a start: Crossing the Rubicon
I have been waiting and waiting since Valerie’s testimony, for her fellow officers to out these traitors. Kucinich’s hearings and McGovern’s revelations are no coincidence, the intelligence people and the FBI people have a big axe to grind with Bush & Co. … and timing is everything.
looseheadprop @ 136
My one concern is why roll this out on Tucker Carlson? If these guys were really going to make their move, sure could have found a bigger and better forum.
Jenny from the Blog @ 133
So. He’s not A plus camera material. Not ready to be on prime time TV. Tells jokes that fall flat. Does it mean he’s wrong? Only people who are suave onscreen can be telling the truth?
People want whistleblowers, and then when the real thing appears, ask for better. This is it folks.
Oklahoma kiddo @
1
No, Rove is Viceroy for domestic affairs.
Cheney is Viceroy for foreign affairs. This sounds like pure Cheney.
I am SO glad for this news. I hope that McGovern is very careful in the next few weeks, and has alternative plans for releasing the info in case of his untimely demise. Might this be the “smoking gun” that will get Cheney impeached and removed from office??? (Be still, my heart!)
Bob in HI
lhp, 33:
Josh Marshall has been on the forgery case from the very beginning, even before Fitzgerald was assigned to the investigation of the CIA leak.
Mary McCurnin @
126
I am worried about being set up. By Careful I mean we check out the story first before we call for impeachment. But careful to me does not mean we hold back at all I am all for defunding the war. I am all for impeachment just based on what we can prove about Bush torturing people. If this story checks out I am all for calling for bush to be impeached. Lion and Fox as Machiavelli would say first we look for traps and then we procede in force!
That’s not what I said, egregious. Not at all.
Later.
Just got home from work to find this article. I would not be in the least bit suprised at anything these people do. The current MSM reports nothing but blather most of the time.
OT, but I have somewhat of a delima and am hoping for some sage advice from FDLers. I understand that Tony Snow is resuming his position as White House spokesman. To preface my request for input I will say that I had a brother that died of pancreatic cancer 3 years ago. I have also lost 2 very close friends to AIDS in the early 90’s. That said should the press give Tony Snow a pass on hard questions just because he’s battling cancer? I in search of thruth and need to know so I can control my anger at the spin that comes from the WH on a daily basis.
It’s no wonder “Uranium in Niger” is off the list of RNC-approved Bush White House Iraq talking points.
To see which Iraq sound bites are on - and off - the Republicans’ list, see:
“Mission Accomplished: 4 Years of GOP Iraq Talking Points.”
If nothing else, it keeps Deadeye busy trying to keep a lid on everything.
mo2 @ 152
You’ve jogged some memory for me here. The two folks who were paid $2000 each included the French/SISMI double agent I referenced earlier. This guy was a French agent who was also working for SISMI and his contact in the Niger Embassy in Rome who I think was a custodial staff member smuggled blank letterhead, and an official government seal stamp out of the embassy. This is where the story gets muddy on who actually did the forgery. The double agent (I think that’s the Carlo guy, I’m not sure) told his French handlers he turned the materials over to SISMI.
Elliott @ 145
Elliotf can you believe it? I was shocked!
bmaz @
25
FITZ!!!
Bob in HI
bmaz @ 155
If they rolled it out on a show like KO or Wolfie, it’d be dismissed out of hand by many who lean toward the right as “typical left wing media blather.” Tucker’s got enough conservative cred among the winger crowd that Ray would get his message out to them. Not that they’d believe him, hearing it just this once — but they’d at least have heard it.
Jenny from the Blog @ 162
I am very sorry if I misunderstood what you were saying.
via atrios, this Murray Waas story:
Secret Order By Gonzales Delegated Extraordinary Powers To Aides
*GULP*
egregious @ 156
We go to war with the whistleblowers that we get!
dreamcatcher @ 160
I know, but this matter had grown a little cold. And Josh has been just a teensy bit busy with other things lately.
So many scandals. So little time. How to keep them all on the front burner?
lolo @ 166
I had to check it out first thing. life is full of small pleasures!
bmaz @ 157
This is the first time the msm has given anyone like these people free air time. And the message they carried about impeachment made it absolutely imperative to take forth the message.
The appropriate place to “Pony up” with the information is to Congress preferably during impeachment hearings.
steelthing @ 162
No way should the press soft pedal their questions, but this is farcical because the press were soft pedaling long before Snow had cancer. If Snow can’t handle it, he should return to his healing process. But he owes it to himself to be professional and if he can’t he should bow out, though we wish him well.
Mind the zigs!
larry johnson on pbs newshour NOW
The guy known for ‘just the facts, ma’am’ does a funny bit with Johnny Carson.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/....._clappers/
now..back to the trail of the forgers…
Elliott @ 171
teeheehee dang no late late night last night
egregious @
158
The fact that he took on Rumsfeld and was chastened by Paula Zahn soon thereafter, shows the man deserves to be heard, by Leahy or Waxman. These officers know that they work for the American people and America’s best interests (and that of the free world) and they want us to listen to them. We owe it to them, give them a fair chance at a hearing and see if there is enough evidence to indict/convict. Methinks LHP and Egregious are correct, this is it.
Mauimom @ 150
Yeah. What’s up with that? Milbank is a tool - he’s always squeezing out a WH talking point or two, and it’s messing up Olbermann’s show.
There are much better reporters to chose from. Why do they keep bringing him back?
Things come undone (trying to avoid upsetting the margin faeries, so I’ll skip the quote)
I didn’t say thing one about demanding impeachment just because Ray McGovern said something on Tucker’s show.
Sheez! I’m freakin’ lawyer. I’m the one always harping on let’s get a case together and write full fledged order of proof before we even hint at impeachment.
I have no worry about being punked by this, B/C I don’t demand indictment (That’s basically what articles of impeachment are) before I see the evidence in habd and triple checked.
No, all I want folks to do, is take this guy seriously and listen to what he has to say and when you notice related open source info, make sure you sing out.
That’s all. Just don’t dismiss him.
bmaz at 157 My one concern is why roll this out on Tucker Carlson? If these guys were really going to make their move, sure could have found a bigger and better forum.
These are not media stars with agents. They are ordinary people who have become involved in something very complicated. That he could gain access to Tucker’s show is a huge success.
Say one of us discovered something egregious about the government tomorrow morning. Who would you call? How would you try to get the truth across to a skeptical public, when even your natural allies are demanding documents and proof that are dangerous to provide?
FiniFiniTOOBZ! @
145
Hi Fini!!!!
(((((((bigasshugs)))))))
edit: Please consider above hugs for are for LHP, too and Egy and JFTB, and anyone else who needs some love today.
Good source with tons of details:
http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/006162.php
I can’t speak for anyone except myself but I think this is as good of place as any.
Something important would merit it’s own post and from there it would be Spotlight time.
Elliott @ 177
Then maybe it IS A ROLLOUT?
Goody! (LHP claps hands excitedly and does a little jig)
Larry Johnson is setting David Boren straight!
For anyone who wants to know what he thinks: Ray McGovern on video.
Sounds like McGovern is auditioning for a congressional hearing. Fingers crossed.
egregious @ 181
I am watching Tucker repeat. They are talking about impeachment because they are throwing the issue back at Jack Murtha. Idiots
Tucker doing the dirty work for the WH that is what this is all about.
looseheadprop @ 188
Johnson is so good at making the right point, and he stood firm and wouldn’t let Boren dilute Johnson’s point by calling him a Tenet hater, dismissively
Elliott @ 189
Live blogging pretty lease, I’m at office. no tee vee
lolo @ 193
he’s like a trained seal, isn’t he? he even looks like one
looseheadprop @ 195
Oh sorry, the segment’s over but it’s worth viewing. I’ll check over at PBS to find about a replay.
Jacqurat
Thanks for the hugs, but I’m having an OK day.
I don’t mind when people disagree with me on thise site. I much prefer that to an echo chamber, and that’s how we get closer to the truth, by examing things from many angles.
I’m diggin’ it.
Tucker referred to wackjob bloggers and also said Democrats are stupid. Must be new talkers.
Elliot,
Just tell me what it was about. I’ll trust your paraphrase
VP is good at deferments and forgery. Yeah, the soldiers must love him. Oh, and making money via Halliburton off their blood while in office.
LS @ 199
Well, I’d have a hard time refuting the wackjob label, but stupid? Former MENSA member here.
I remain convinced that Karl Rove was well aware of the Iraq war run-up and what Cheney was up to. Same for Bush.
Tucker is upset because the madam is naming names. I guess he figures it’s so unprofessional.
looseheadprop @
195
Here’s the gist, LHP:
David Boren: Your accusations seem to be without merit.
Larry Johnson: Your phone numbers appear on the D.C. Madame’s list.
David Boren: Well, I’m convinced … indict the bastards !
… commentary from the TV playing in my head ! *g*
looseheadprop @
183
I never said you were calling for impeachment LHP but somepeople maybe not here will and of course Fox will interview them and make them out as kooks. I know I can’t stop this, but I do agree we should give this guy a fair shake. I do want to hear more first before I get my hopes up. Because if this story is true then we can impeach!
from pbs
so it’ll go up there later, but I don’t know how much later. I’ll keep my eyes peeled.
The Online Newshour, recent segments -looking for Larry Johnson v David Boren
RagingGurrl @
182
He probably doesn’t have any choice in having Milbank. Given that the WaPoo, MSNBC, and Newsweek are all “working” together, KO is most likely directed to a pool of reporters and writers that he can use for these topics.
Not so long ago…
Murry Waas finds that thread…
h/t Steve… This is HUGE!
things come undone @ 206
No, if this story is provable with admissable evidence we can convict. But hat is also true of a whole mess of other scandals out there.
So the house of cards might one day fall. This is just obscene. And I thought when I learned that FEMA and Bush were unprepared to accept billions of dollars in foreign aid during and in the wake of Katrina that they would have a bad week. I guess it is time for them to go to the pharmacy.
I could be wrong, but it seems this thread has brought out a number of paid posters.
neokneme @ 209
Did you guys read that letter from the former head of the DOJ Civil Rights division? About the phony voter fraud cases?
Talk about impeachable offenses!!!!!!!
ccmask @ 203
Or perhaps he is upset because, he is a “name”
Jeff @
38
Thanks.
redX @ 212
Do you mean just because they disagree with Eg, or me?
I would HATE to think that anyone who genuinely disagreed with me would hesitate to explain their position to me.
looseheadprop @ 213
May I have a link to that letter? I saw the letter about hiring practices, but not the letter about phony fraud cases, although I did hear about the tabacco settlement.
mo2 @ 186
Here is another treasure trove. Excellent time lines and history.
http://www.newsfollowup.com/
.
I’ll agree w. everyone that caution is indicated. Let’s see some cards before we up the ante. But he sure got my attention!
I always wondered why the forgrey was so crude and easily disprovable - basically a piece of xerox art. Withactual materials and a stamp from the embassy, it should have been fairly simple to generate a very convincing forgery. But they couldn’t even get the correct names of folks who were in office at the time the letter was supposed to have been written…
The echo chamber process by which the forgeries were spread and became separate, reinforcing threads of the story is also of great importance. The same bits (or much like them) got shopped to the US, Italy, France and England. Maybe other places too.
Folks gamed the system to make it look like the same bad forgery was actually one small thread of a generally accepted event. Almost better that the McGuffin was so clumsy that no one was willing to share the actual document for the embarrassment. They just passed on tidbits about the forgeries for quite a while.
And those who knew what they were looking at didn’t squawk much. That let Blair talk about multiple sources for his intel. It let Cheney keep pushing it after the CIA had debunked it. It just kept coming back, like a bad penny wearing a fake moustache.
Sorta like the echo chamber of the right wing building up and passing on their indignity of the day. Maybe it all does come back to Rove, or Mellon, or Scaife, or… Sure will make a great movie.
looseheadprop @ 200
MENSA was at one of those alternative festivals that get put together sometimes, you know the types, here’s Jody from the zoo with a real live rattlesnake you can pet and the War Resisters League and NORML, etc. MENSA was their test. I didn’t even know who they were. Took the test, turned it in, and walked off. Had a phone call the next day begging me to join. Went to one meeting, and I was not impressed, and they found me appalling. I was too…flamboyant and earthy for them. Probably too vulgar, as well. My idea of a great evening back then was slamming back some Margaritas and getting rowdy with the mariachis at my favorite Tex-Mex restaurant.
Wait… That’s still my idea of a great evening!
DOJ/RNC Vote fraud scam lead link…
Not sure if the letter is there or not…
Helen @ 212
or Daddy…
The Iraq war is over. It is the moment for Democrats to show real leadership
If President Bush’s veto is not challenged tomorrow, thousands of Iraqis and hundreds of US troops are certain to perish
Gary Younge
Monday April 30, 2007
The Guardian
The letter LHP refers to is from Bob Kengle, and is posted at TPMMuckraker.
The title of his letter is “Why I Left the Civil Rights Division” and his four reasons are these (his words):
1)I no longer could insulate the line attorneys I supervised from the political appointees.
2) I lost confidence that any litigation I supervised would be resolved based upon the merits rather than partisan factors.
3) I lost confidence that the hiring process would bring in attorneys who placed civil rights enforcement over partisan considerations.
4) Policy decisions to pursue or avoid pursuing certain cases or types of cases.
It’s a helluva letter, with allegations of impeachable offenses galore.
pointecoupeedemocrat @ 215
Here ya go.
The McGovern appearance was probably booked as a “former CIA guy” to comment on Tenet … McGovern led into the issue of Ledeen et al (who he did not name here) as part of his very righteous attack on Tenet’s dishonoring of the CIA.
I agree with LHP that McGovern is the real deal - and I’d note that what McGovern is saying synchs rather well with most of the storyline we know and what has been reported since the forgeries appeared. It’s just that most were not paying attention until recently.
pointcoupedemocrat
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/003120.php
You have to read closely (and maybe between the lines cause there is some DOJ-speak in there) the sections of the letter that deal with the voting rights section
Now Tucker is bashing Obama. They are trashing his pastor. Such Christians, Tucker, Pat and Bill Press.
LJ/Aquaria @ 220
Now you know why I am an EX MENSA member–and why I spend my time with you all instead of them.
Margaritas! That’s not a bad idea… Hmmm…
looseheadprop @ 200
good Ray. better Ray.
there you go: pair of Rays.
Thank you, everyone. I find this interesting, because they are trying to put the man who covered up the Foley case, Royal Alexander, in the elected office of Attorney General in my state, Louisiana. All this is grist for my new mill.
reader,
Can’t find where Rice used the words “creative destruction,” but there were those infamous “birth pangs of a new Middle East” from last July’s Lebanon crisis. Just today, Bashar Assad was predicting failure for that NME project—another case where a Bush official has backed herself into a corner in part by using antagonizing rhetoric.
These folks do have a tendency to celebrate their destructiveness as “creative,” or to talk about “creative chaos.”
lolo @ 228
Bill Press is sometimes really annoying.
looseheadprop @ 227
Don’t forget the mariachis. It’s not a great evening until you have mariachis!
Love those tight pants they wear….
jTucker is recycling Sean Insanity’s talking points from 3 weeks ago. Your lame Tucker!
Helen @ 213
No no, he just hates being showed up by a “classy” whore.
OT -
Is the DCMadam case in DC? In other words, is the USA handling it the DC - Taylor?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 223
Hey fellow Okie. Can’t agree with you more.
Mauimom @ 151
hmmm, never knew that guy was Skull and Bones
Wait a minute. The Niger forgeries are widely known to be hideously inept. Any time you see hideous ineptness, your first question should be, “Where’s Doug Feith?” Anyone know?
When you read Kengle’s letter next to the Murray Waas piece about Sampson given firing authority over damn near everyone . . . talk about power run amok!
From Kengle: “I also was very concerned that increased interaction between line attorneys and political appointees would result in retaliation against line attorneys who did not toe the line.”
Yep, having a COS to the AG running around with WH folks measuring who’s been politically naughty and who’s been politically nice, and that COS has firing authority . . . that’d raise some concerns with me, too.
RE; The earlier thread with the Hannity clip.
90 seconds was all I could take. That was the definition of the phrase “Circling the drain”.
Wass is a stone cold killer. Reminds me of EW Friday talking about how McClatchy came up with Phillips’ resignation from the DoJ: ummm, it’s called reporting…
One interesting thing about Wass’ story–and I can’t wait for the resident professionals here and at TPM to dig into it–is that he manages to get virtually to the end before mentioning Rove. And importantly, he never mentions the fact that Sampson worked for Rove before he tried his one case and went to work at the DoJ and was put in charge of gutting the place.
But he did. The Goodling connection was obvious. But it seems like Congress would have appreciated knowing about this little mandate and what it was supposed to accomplish before they interviewed Sampson, let alone Gonzo.
lolo @ 225
Tucker, I’m telling you nicely, and for your own good: you do NOT want to mess with Jeremiah Wright.
Elliott:
Gotta get ready for Zed.
lolo
Peterr @ 224
Yeah, I thought that the letter was the best item of the day–not counting the Hannity absurdity–, until the Murray Wass article just showed up.
The letter is very powerful.
kemo @ 234
Helen @ 213
ccmask @ 203
He’s jealous that she was probably raking in more dough than he was, and she wasn’t spending as much time on her knees for Republicans as he does.
Peterr @ 224
Peterr
I have been waiting for such a long time hoping that a day would come when folks would feel like it was not a waste of time to come forward.
The stories you hear over a beer are gut churning, but the decision about whether or not to come forward, risking carer, reputation, maybe marriage (from the stress) is not a decision that you can make for somebody else.
They have to decide for themselves. That’s why the admin tried to destroy the Wilsons. And Sybil Edmonds and the scientists,–Oh, and remember Paul O’Neil?
I always believed it would be the DOJ folks who would break through and they did, from Patfitz refusing to torpeado the Libby case through the career people that are just beginning to come out of the woodwork now.
I wonder when the FBI folks will do the same?
Just have to thank lhp for her VOR…rabid lambs like me need it from time to time…)
On another topic… If Tom dispatch is credible then we are not going to change much of anything with the current bill even if Bush did not veto it.
It’s the best description of the bill I have read so far… (linked here by Kairos in Cal, last night) We have no reason to feel at ease, imo.
Frank Probst @ 240
Laughing. laughing alot
About the payment for the Niger forgeries…
http://www.warandpiece.com/blogdirs/003226.html
We need a list of all the things we can impeach Bush for the list has grown so large I know I don’t everything. Also we should prioritize the list based on things we can prove easily like Torture and violating the Geneva Conventions at the top our “slam dunks ” as it were. Then we can cross check the list with things we know the American people care about the most like lying about Iraq getting yellowcake from Niger and Cheney outing Valerie Palme OUR Spy as a spy. Proving Cheney knew is hard but proving Cheney knew Scooter did it after it was done and did nothing well not that hard. We need to crosslink the proveable list with the America cares list and then look at areas that need further investigation and Prioritize that list based on what we are the most likly to be able to prove with the least work. Once we start impeachment I don’t think Bush can Pardon anyone being investigated in regards to his and Cheney’s impeachment. No Pardon gives us leverage that Fitz did not have on witnesses!
Josh at TPM is saying he doesn’t have a direct link from the forgeries to Cheney. He says, McGovern has evidence. This is a very polite notification to McGovern that Josh isn’t buying it until he sees the evidence. I’m cautious until I see it, too.
Could the prostitution ring be playing in this story? One side, or both trying to keep people quite as the impeachements and trials start?
Could it be that they just have to take their ride downtown and get kicked out for something they did but can argue was policical (like forging documents) - but not the thing that might keep them off the TV and lecture circut - going to a prostitue?
Shorter McGovern?
Some of it came from abroad, but some of it came from a Dick.
I’m here all week. Try the veal.
And now I have to go and read everything.
You mean the stupidest guy on the planet?
FYI, new thread
looseheadprop @
Peterr
I have been waiting for such a long time hoping that a day would come when folks would feel like it was not a waste of time to come forward.
When George Tenet gets around to doing it, you know the virus is starting to take over the host.
The Civil Rights division letter at TPM is great, and Wass’ article is based on a confidential source that has handed over a very damaging document.
looseheadprop @ 245
Add to it that for many of the midlevel folks, they’ve got kids around the age of college, and trying to send them there on government wages is tough enough. Trying to send them to school on the absence of wages is much, much tougher.
As for the FBI, I’m guessing that the biggest reason they haven’t come forward relates to seeing how Coleen Rowley was treated.
New thread from Teddy.
Randy Tobias Won’t Be Missed
looseheadprop @ 216
No, I would not be the best to know since I don’t know the regulars. Just seems that nobody that believed the WH admin has posted for months and months, and now it seems a bit different on this one thread.
I have no problem with different views or disagreement (especially since these are not facts at this time). I likely should have taken my first implulse to keep my mouth shut about it.
I’m not all the way through yet, but have we got our Carlos and Carlas straight yet?
Carlo Bonini is the journalist from La Repubblica who joined FDL last weel for the book salon on his book, Collusion.
Carla Del Ponte is a Swiss diplomat, attorney, and war crimes prosecutor who, so far as I know, has nothing to do with the Niger uranium and forgery story. (God! I hope not, unless these schmoes come up before her some day.)
Elisabetta Burba is a journalist with the Italian magazine Panorama who was given a set of forged documents by Rocco Martino, who was an occasional source for her. Apparently on the instruction of her editor, she delivered the documents to the U.S. embassy in Rome in October, 2002.
You know, this part of the story just might be even weedier than the noc leak, if that’s possible.
That letter is damaging, and it explains how redistricting was able to be enacted. It also explains the hostility of the Georgia Republicans during the debate on the House floor. One question: what role does a state AG have in redistricting?
Hmmm….D.C. Madam indicates prominent women in serious positions used to work for her….hmmmm….can anybody think of a prominent woman who might have been “qualified” for a job like that (entertaining politicians) who might have used that information to wield her new found “authority”…say, someone who might have spent a couple of years working in “public affairs” (pun intended), say after graduating…hmmmm, attractive, young…let me think about that one…oh, yeah! Could be..
Nah.
Friday night news dump started early this week.
Another staffer for Condi just bailed.
Hard to keep up, the hits keep coming.
pointecoupeedemocrat @ 260
Varies from state to state. My sense is that in each state, the process ultimately comes down to the state legislature voting on a map and the governor signing it. Some state are trying to set up “impartial” committees (retired judges, for instance) to present the map, but I don’t know if this has been enacted anywhere yet.
However the districts get drawn, if someone wants to challenge the map, it generally goes to federal court, and the state AG would defend the state against the suit.
jon @ 265
link?
LJ/Aquaria @ 247
I never said that. :)
I said this:
Tucker is upset because the madam is naming names. I guess he figures it’s so unprofessional.
ralphbon @ 74
Ahem….it wasn’t the “press, Congress, and the public that were credulous”…it was the Administration…and the Brits (MI6) that gave all of this their imprimatur.
And Hersh wasn’t stating that this was HIS HUNCH…he said that his information came from “Administration officials”. I WONDER WHO THOSE WERE?
You don’t think that they leaked this claim to justify their attacks on Valerie Plame and Wilson? Folks like Feith actually believed that there was a cabal in the CIA trying to stop them…by (how dare they) speaking truth to fact!
Reports were already coming out about Ledeen in Rome…Ledeen is closely associated with PNAC and also with a variety of former CIA agents that have gone “rogue” and “freelance”.
These were groups that worked with the contras and Cuban exiles.
looseheadprop @
248
There are many patriots waiting to testify for Leahy & Waxman. The grand finale will begin when Congress start gathering evidence from the FBI, O’Neill, Clarke and the CIA whistleblowers and connect the dots to show the lengths to which Bush & Co underminded these depts. to concoct their many lies.
Looking forward to you and EW breaking all of this down for us lesser minds.
LS @
267
glad to oblige:
“Barry Lowenkron, assistant secretary of state for democracy, human rights and labor, will leave within weeks to become a vice president with the MacArthur Foundation,”
http://rawstory.com/news/afp/A.....02007.html
Oh please Please PLEASE let this be what it looks like, the beginnings of the real cascade collapse of the intelligence manipulations that brought the world the Iraq war! Cheney’s office was always the driving “policy” side of this war; Bush’s side was in the domestic partisan political values they could wring from it for the most part from what I observed contemporaneously. These Niger forgeries are a major unanswered question that has long looked like it linked back into the Cheney cabal, and finally we may be seeing that long chain finally coming full circle. Gods I hope so!
The way the entire intelligence community has been screwed over by the Cheney Presidency from literally day one is something I find exceptionally offensive and also utterly idiotic from the perspective of someone charged with actually defending American security. The damage Cheney did is incalculable with his inherent distrust of CIA and his decision to set up his own private intelligence shop (well actually his own national security council with that intelligence shop as a component with none of the checks on it that the actual legally authorized one does allowing for him to have his Iraq war regardless of reality) will be many long and painful years to decades in repairing.
I hope and pray we are finally seeing the long awaited revenge of the spooks, it is something I knew was coming eventually, but as others have already noted timing is everything, and now the timing is such that these allegations will actually be seriously looked into and taken as credible whereas prior to last year, especially last Nov they would not have been. By now with all that the first quarter of the new Congress has shown wrong within Bushco’s running of the federal government these allegations will seem far more plausible to those outside the politically aware (as in follow politics closely) citizenry than they ever would have since 9/11/01 happened. It is time and past time for this as I am sure is the common sentiment here, and hopefully we are finally about to see the biggest avalanche of troubles fall upon this President’s head to afflict any President. This is the downside of running the strongman operation of fear and intimidation they have, while yes they keep things bottled up the longer that is successful the more internal pressure will be created and that much harder the blowoff/explosion at the end when the pressures can no longer be contained. A chain reaction/cascade failure like the one that is coming for Bushco is going to be a rare one indeed and will at least be a partial payback to all those that have until recently been the voices in the wilderness warning about the dangers of Bushco and the Cheney Presidency perverting all America once stood for by treating the American Constitution as a set of guidelines where it limits a President and as ironclad law where it empowers one. A greater perversion of the intent of the American Founding Fathers I have never been able to conceive of.
Michael Ledeen has ties with international fascism. According to an article in Covert Action Quarterly (No. 18 Winter 1983) http://www.covertactionquarter.....sues3.html “Readers interested in pursuing the topic might want to begin with the urgent flight to Rome the night before the death of Pope John Paul I by Michael Ledeen.”
There is an article on Ledeen at– http://www.conspiracyplanet.co.....amp;page=2
And whaddaya know, here is Ledeen complaining that ya’ just can’t get a good Rosary said these days on MSM– “IN THE VATICAN CITY [Michael Ledeen] It is utterly infuriating, almost maddening, to try to watch the Rosary at St Peter’s, because the accursed tv people just will not ever let us watch an event. They must tell us what to think about it, even as it is happening. And so we lose a sense of the real drama, we just cannot experience it for ourselves, they will always be there between us and real life.” @nationalreview
Peterr @
266
Thanks. Now I go to the Louisiana Constitution. Thank you thank you.
jrt @ 274
If I recall correctly, Ledeen is also tight w. Ghorbanifar. Could be we went to war to help out the Iranians - who else is all of this working out for?. Maybe to make up for that stupid birthday cake. All we need is one good Hassenfuss to break this wide open…
lolo @ 218
From an interview with Vincent Cannistaro, the former CIA head of counterterrorism operations and intelligence director at the National Security Council under Ronald Reagan, which aired on the Los Angeles public radio KPFK on April 3, 2005:
Masters: Do we know who produced those documents? Because there’s some suspicion …
Cannistaro: I think I do, but I’d rather not speak about it right now, because I don’t think it’s a proven case …
Masters: If I said “Michael Ledeen” ?
Cannistaro: You’d be very close . . .
http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/21704/?page=3
The Italian Letter, by Peter Eisner and Knut Royce (Rodale; $24.95). In October, 2002, in a basement bistro in Rome, an intelligence peddler named Rocco Martino handed a reporter a folder of documents. Etc.
looseheadprop @ 87
Which begs the issue as to why the forger would encourage the Congress and the FBI to investigate WHO the forger was! Seems potentially self-defeating?
Hersh, as I recall, had “unnamed Administration sources” for his “rogue CIA theory about an internal cabal wanting to hurt the WH with a shabby forgery”.
That seems like a diversion…they knew that there already were reports that the CIA was doing “something” in Rome (hence the SISMI Officer asked Tenet about CIA activities with Iranians). But this wasn’t the CIA…it was Ledeen! Ledeen was tied in with the whole Ghorbanifar-group that helped Ollie North smuggle ground-to-air missiles into Iran so that he could aid the contras.
He’s a tried and true PNACker. Pro-Likuddite!
Meanwhile here is the evidence that Ray McGovern had anything to do with the Niger forgeries….0….
Elliott @ 178
I was listening while driving my son home from school and I was sure Ray Suarez was going to have to break up a fist fight, I don’t recall anyone ever getting so angry on the polite newshour.
Paul McNulty? Hmm.
Interesting that “The [Larry Franklin/A*P*C] investigation was first led by U.S. Attorney David Szady, then transferred to U.S. Attorney Paul McNulty.”
http://www.newsfollowup.com/franklingate.htm
* Edited by Mod
looseheadprop @ 183
I agree with you looseheadprop. Of COURSE, one will want the evidence. I suspect that Ray McGovern has emerged to say this because Tenet gave him one more bit of critical evidence to the puzzle.
That was that THE ADMINISTRATION had sent over Ledeen on a mission to talk to Iranian exiles. That snippet is in Tenet’s new book.
Tenet says that in January 2002 the head of SISMI asked him what he knew about Americans being sent from the Administration to work with Iranian exiles. enet was kept totally in the dark about these activities. And apparently the SISMI official “clammed up”.
So much for a collegial relationship and intelligence sharing between Allies!
But I’m sure that the CIA began to probe just what WAS going on here…and stepped beyond the Looking Glass.
It’s the first thing that confirms that this was AN AUTHORIZED MISSION from the Pentagon or the Administration. I bet that if it was Pentagon-linked it was Feith who pushed it. That leads to Cheney.
Many thought that perhaps Ledeen was there as a rogue…maybe working for PNAC or Israeli Intellence (Mossad). But Tenet’s book clarified this information for McGovern and tied in with his own chronology of events.
eyesonthestreet @ 280
I don’t think that Ray wants to fight Larry…I believe that he trained agents on deadly-force techniques.
And what would lead normally sedate Ray to challenge Larry…or were there other “guests” in the mix?
leftdcin72 @
101
You are repeating one of Cheney’s main talking points for the last 20 years or so. Are you a Cheney sockpuppet?
Bushco didn’t like the CIA because, at least to begin with, they had some professionalism and pride, and took seriously their mandate to do a decent job of actually analyzing intelligence. But that’s not what Cheney & Bush wanted; they wanted the CIA to be a compliant arm of their propaganda machine. Tenet resisted for a while, but he’s too much the politician not to kiss the *sses of his bosses and give them what they wanted. The CIA is in a shambles now because the competent people were chased off by Porter Goss and by Cheney, and Tenet didn’t have enough backbone to push back. So now, except for a few like Valerie Plame Wilson, the CIA is filled with Bushco propagandists, and agents involved in rendition and other illegal acts. Current chief Hayden is another one of those smart guys without an ounce of conscience who will do what he is told.
Bob in HI
If it was “authorized” that means Dick did it, because GW doesn’t do any real work.
Starting a sentence with “Look” is clear indication of a koolaid drinking - just listen to Tony Snow and GW speak.
I can’t “look” with my ears!
And it’s a guy named McGovern nailing his ass!
Hahahohoheehee!!!
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 287
LOFL!
MarkH @ 85
yep. ‘Et tu Brutus?’
OT, here’s my latest
How is a public preoccupied with American Idol going to ask the tough questions about their governments willingness to murder them?
Shouldn’t that be “plumbers” like White House Plumbers in Watergate? Just askin’.
cinnamonape @ 283
Larry was objecting to Boren trying to smear him and was insistant on correcting the record and keeping it straight. Ray didn’t stir anything up, Johnson was defending himself ardently — which is nice to see.
OT but of interest
Tonight PBS starts its MORMON series
oh, I almost used an apostrophe
Anyone remember this:
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=7681
According to a source in the Italian embassy, Patrick J. “Bulldog” Fitzgerald asked for and “has finally been given a full copy of the Italian parliamentary oversight report on the forged Niger uranium document,” the former CIA officer tells me:
“Previous versions of the report were redacted and had all the names removed, though it was possible to guess who was involved. This version names Michael Ledeen as the conduit for the report and indicates that former CIA officers Duane Clarridge and Alan Wolf were the principal forgers. All three had business interests with Chalabi.”
Alan Wolf died about a year and a half ago of cancer. He served as chief of the CIA’s Near East Division as well as the European Division, and was also CIA chief of station in Rome after Clarridge. According to my source, “he and Clarridge and Ledeen were all very close and also close to Chalabi.” The former CIA officer says Wolf “was Clarridge’s Agency godfather. Significantly, both Clarridge and Wolf also spent considerable time in the Africa division, so they both had the Africa and Rome connection and both were close to Ledeen, closing the loop.”
cinnamonape @ 283
or were there other “guests” in the mix?
Yes, Senator David Boren (defending his friend Tenant and calling Johnson a liar) but Johnson ended the segment and put Boren in his place. Ray Suarez seemed to end it as fast as he could. Try to catch it, there are several links above.
Talk about smoking gun. Those behind the niger documents intentionally ignited the Iraq war. You cant get much more Nuremberg than that.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @
289
I suppose I should’ve added, just to be ultra-snarky, that it’s been rumored Valerie Plame is pretty good with an AK-47 and hasn’t been known to miss her target with a backpack nuke.
But, we all know Ms. Plame is really a sweetheart deskjockey who wouldn’t hurt a fly, right? How about her ‘friends’?
I can’t imagine why any Republicans thought they could get away with this outrage.
Chapter Five of Collusion by Carlo Bonini and Giuseppe D’Avanzo addresses “A Strange Meeting” in Rome in 2001. Some pertinent excerpts from the just-published English version of this year-old book (featured on FDL’s Book Salon a week ago), with emphasis added [and I trust and hope, acceptably quoted within copyright in the service of helping to bring the truth to light]:
The authors then interviewed an Italian in the security business named Antonio Marrapese, who claimed that intelligence agencies outsource work to him, on a contract basis, and report:
The authors then examine the seeming cover story promoted by SISMI and Ledeen that Ghorbanifar set up this meeting with Ledeen to discuss Afghanistan (the invasion of which was just getting under way). Here are some of the authors’ reasons for skepticism of the Ledeen version of events:
Some of this account is more or less confirmed by Nicolo Pollari, head of SISMI. But the accounts vary in numerous ways, including as to location, and number of meetings. Pollari asserted to the authors that the Iranian guests were actually representatives from the Iraqi Shiites of the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI), who appeared in Rome with the knowledge of the Pasdaran - the so-called “Guardians of the Revolution.” With the help of a State Department source, and a CIA “insider” and piecing together various other pieces of evidence, the authors wrap up their conclusions about the Rome meeting(s), after dismissing Ghorbanifar as a red herring:
[If this conclusion reads like a bombshell discovery, it’s because it is, as far as I’m concerned, pending further verification and confirmation… And there’s a lot more in this book where that came from regarding the topic of this thread - the Niger Uranium Forgeries - including key information from Collusion’s sources in Italy, France and America.]
P.S. CoasterDave @ 295 - Collusion seems to cite the Italian Parliamentary Commission for Oversight of the Secret Services investigation effort(s) being repeatedly stonewalled and misled by key figures like Pollari of SISMI. So I don’t know how much solid evidence (rather than disinformation) that uranium report mentioned managed to compile in the end. There is, I gather, still an open investigation of this matter by the Rome Public Prosecutor, which may or may not be going anywhere.
pow wow @ 299
Big thank you…Wow…what a comment.
Now if I am not mistaken I thought that when Mr. Bonini was at FDL he said he couldn’t pin down the Ledeen connection? But with what you quoted and excerpted, that is some highly damaging series of coincidental meetings and circumstances.
It’s smelt like Ledeen Spirit for a while. But if Josh Marshall and Laura Rozen can’t pin down the fucker, nor the Italian journalists, Firepups are going to have their work more than a little cut out. He’s bona fide fascist filth, and steps are taken to protect him.
my too sense @ 300 - The Ledeen connection Bonini mentioned not being able to pin down or make in Collusion is any Ledeen connection to the uranium forgeries themselves. The authors never unearthed any evidence directly connecting Ledeen to the creation/dissemination of the forged documents (as opposed to Ledeen’s involvement in this Iran/Iraq-focused November, 2001 Rome meeting outlined above).
But as you note, the 2001 timing of the known Ledeen/Rome meeting(s) is definitely suggestive of Ledeen’s potential involvement in the Niger Uranium Fraud, as well. It was October 15, 2001, Pollari’s first official day on the job at SISMI, and the day Silvio Berlusconi visited Bush at the White House, that the first known hint of these uranium forgeries was passed from SISMI to the CIA field officer in Rome (he was allowed to look at, but not copy, the “draft agreement”). My suspicion is that these forgeries were concocted post-9/11, with the help of the new ‘ethics-challenged’ Italian government, around a genuine 2/1999 Niger telex that the Italians had intercepted. But apparently most of the forgery work was done by at least October 15, 2001, three weeks before the Iran/Iraq/Ledeen Rome meeting, and it’s possible the forgeries had in fact been created many months earlier (some time after the Niger Embassy break-in, which took place over the New Year’s holiday at the beginning of 2001, when official seals and letterhead were taken).
NorskeFlamethrower @ 95
Yawn. McGovern has been running around making a claim - that a particular person was involved in forging the Niger documents - that some of our very best investigative reporters have been unable to find a single shred of evidence for. Now he says he has evidence but is unwilling to share any of it. I say share it or color me unpersuaded. I’m not writing checks, I’m asking for him to put his money where his mouth is.
Those are my shops.
As for his intellectual honesty, let me remind you that the agency he worked for makes a world-class art of lying; that’s just part of their job, which is fine. There was a time when people on the left remained aware of that fact. Worth remembering, if you ask me.
Thanks, Jeff, for the effete rebuttal from AEI and the Bush Whitehouse.
Ray MacGovern was an analyst, not an operator, so lying isn’t a part of his tradecraft. Only a true-believing dead ender, such as yourself, can’t see the direction this 6 year long fiasco is headed.
Somehow, I believe, our latter-day Leon Jaworski - P J Fitzgerald - has a large role to play in the endgame of this, our latest Republican spawned national nightmare.
—-
Didn’t McGovern retire in 1985 or so?
Maybe not 1985, but wasn’t Bush 41 still president when McGovern retired? Did he ever work for this administration?
MayBee @
306
the last mention in Wiki of when is that McGovern worked during Daddy Bush’s administration ……
Jeff (#303):
“…… intellectual honesty” has a nice ring to it.
so does “disingenuous”.
I wish someone would ask Tucker to present proof of the BS he spews daily. Just saying.
By the way in reference to the Italian journalist referenced above who worked for the Italian magazine called Panorama: Panorama is owned by and a propaganda tool of Berlusconi.